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== RfC being removed == |
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Gonna need some help. An SPA is deleting an RfC I started. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Nicholas_Alahverdian&diff=994392736&oldid=994392682] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Nicholas_Alahverdian&diff=994393870&oldid=994393789]. I'm logging off now. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|talk]])''' 14:12, 15 December 2020 (UTC) |
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Wikieditor19920
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Wikieditor19920 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was already under a partial block from the closely-related Andy Ngo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (whose major target is Antifa), and continues to conduct debate via edit summaries not on Talk, and has been engaging in apparently tendentious editing at Antifa (United States) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) so I have added Antifa to he pageblock and extended it. This is in lieu of requesting an AP2 TBAN, which I think is defensible based on the lack of introspection displayed at user talk:Wikieditor19920 in response to the original pageblock, and noted by several well respected and calm editors, but I think we should be engaging in minimally aggressive controls right now due to the US political situation and associated elevated emotions. I encourage review and discussion of this, and this is without prejudice to action against the OP, Bacondrum (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who is absolutely not blameless here. I noted this at WP:ANEW where the original complaint is lodged. I suspect Bacondrum may also need some kind of restriction here - it's getting silly. Guy (help! - typo?) 00:33, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- I made a few sets of bold changes to the lead at Antifa (United States), and contributions to the talk page with detailed explanations of my edits. There was disagreement and these edits were reverted - but some edits of my suggestions, such as removing overcitations and pointing out where sources did not in fact support the provided language -- caught on and were later restored. Each of my edit summaries have been as detailed as my contributions on the talk page have been, and while they have not been met with unanimous agreement, they have resulted in minor changes to the lead that seem to be an improvement, including the removal of those overcites as well as small pieces of other redundant information. This is how WP:BRD works, and none of this is tendentious. I will note that my changes were intended only to make the lead more concise and did not involve the addition of any controversial information.
- @JzG:, who had repeatedly used terms like "fash," "neofascist apologist," and "grifter" to describe the subject of the page Andy Ngo, something I asked them to tone down because of the obviously inappropriate and unproductive nature of these remarks,[1] has now banned me from that page until 2021. When I brought this up with JzG, they accused me of some sort of anti-Muslim animus for my edits at Linda Sarsour over a year ago, which helped elevate the page to GA status. If this doesn't show an obvious bias by this admin at the subject in question (specifically their language in describing the subject of a BLP), I don't know what does, and I can't think of a clearer case for admin abuse than here. I'm not even surprised, I'm just disappointed. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 00:45, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- As for the other user mentioned here, this is an editor who I've avoided and who has repeatedly sought me ought, for some inexplicable reason to either snipe at me at the talk page by calling my edits "blatantly POV" or to violate 1RR. An admin claimed that they "couldn't find the violation," despite my report showing two distinct reverts within 24 hours. The user went on to open an ANI. So that's how it goes. When you are on the "right" side, 1RR violations are ignored. When you are on the "wrong" side, as apparently JzG disagrees with my edits, both at Antifa and the "grifter's" page, then violations are contrived and used as a reason to limit your access to those pages. I stand by each and every one of my edits at those pages -- I never engaged in an edit war where I directly reverted someone's removal of my changes, I always did partial reverts and attempted to account for objections, and indeed, some of my edits ultimately remained in the article.
- This latest accusation of a violation was for merging two sentences about the group's protest activity to note non-violent activity as well as violent (both were already in the article before I made any changes, just in two separate sentences) Because, in merging the two sentences, I removed "against those who they identify as the far right," apparently it was tendentious, but JzG does not realize that this language was objected to by another editor in the talk page, Aquillion, and my removing it was a partial acknowledgement of their objection. Of course, actually reviewing my edits and their compliance with WP:BRD and giving me the benefit of the doubt is much more difficult than simply swinging the admin hammer and throwing around phrases like "tendentious." Wikieditor19920 (talk) 00:56, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Wikieditor19920, you made several "bold changes" all of which appear to have been reverted, by more than one editor. You did this in the context of an existing pageblock on Andy Ngo. Did you not pause at any point to reflect on the wisdom of this, or whether you should first seek consensus for changes to long-standing text? I look forward to seeing you contribute to a consensus building process on Talk (of both articles). Guy (help! - typo?) 01:01, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- @JzG: No, they were not all reverted, as I just explained. My removal of citations was initially objected to, and then, coincidentally, agreed with by Bacondrum, who partially restored my changes. My last change was to merge two sentences and, as a show of good faith, remove language objected specifically to by Aquillion here, which was to qualify their protests against the far-right with "those that they identify." He called that language "weak." I disagreed, but I removed it nonetheless in my subsequent edits to the page -- I thought the sentences about their protest tactics went better together, and, in the process, I incorporated a specific request by another user who had previously taken issue with at least some of my edits. Only in an alternate reality is this tendentious editing, but, per usual, when you don't have the benefit of the doubt by admins who substantively disagree, then everything is cast in a negative light and used to justify extraordinarily stringent bans that aren't even issued for actual, severe violations (such as 1RR). Wikieditor19920 (talk) 01:05, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Wikieditor19920, so you won't have a problem with achieving consensus on Talk then, and demonstrating that you are in fact the good guy, despite past history. Great. That will be a decent result all round. I do recommend RfCs as a good way to settle intractable disputes. Guy (help! - typo?) 01:06, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- @JzG: I don't need to demonstrate that I'm a "good guy" to you. My work speaks for itself. You have misconstrued my contributions at this page in justifying this poorly explained ban, and forgive me if I have a problem with that. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 01:11, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstand. Nobody needs to demonstrate anything to me, personally - I'm just zis Guy, you know? - but my advice to you, as an editor whom I respect regardless of personal differences, is to make it really easy for admins to see who's here to improve the encyclopaedia and who's here to right great wrongs. With that I will duck out, as long experience indicates that therse disputes go better when people are prepared to step back and wait for the dust to settle. Guy (help! - typo?) 01:54, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- @JzG: I don't need to demonstrate that I'm a "good guy" to you. My work speaks for itself. You have misconstrued my contributions at this page in justifying this poorly explained ban, and forgive me if I have a problem with that. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 01:11, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Wikieditor19920, so you won't have a problem with achieving consensus on Talk then, and demonstrating that you are in fact the good guy, despite past history. Great. That will be a decent result all round. I do recommend RfCs as a good way to settle intractable disputes. Guy (help! - typo?) 01:06, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- @JzG: No, they were not all reverted, as I just explained. My removal of citations was initially objected to, and then, coincidentally, agreed with by Bacondrum, who partially restored my changes. My last change was to merge two sentences and, as a show of good faith, remove language objected specifically to by Aquillion here, which was to qualify their protests against the far-right with "those that they identify." He called that language "weak." I disagreed, but I removed it nonetheless in my subsequent edits to the page -- I thought the sentences about their protest tactics went better together, and, in the process, I incorporated a specific request by another user who had previously taken issue with at least some of my edits. Only in an alternate reality is this tendentious editing, but, per usual, when you don't have the benefit of the doubt by admins who substantively disagree, then everything is cast in a negative light and used to justify extraordinarily stringent bans that aren't even issued for actual, severe violations (such as 1RR). Wikieditor19920 (talk) 01:05, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Wikieditor19920, you made several "bold changes" all of which appear to have been reverted, by more than one editor. You did this in the context of an existing pageblock on Andy Ngo. Did you not pause at any point to reflect on the wisdom of this, or whether you should first seek consensus for changes to long-standing text? I look forward to seeing you contribute to a consensus building process on Talk (of both articles). Guy (help! - typo?) 01:01, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Wikieditor19920 rightly points out that Bacondrum is also under the same pageblock, it seems to me that equity might best be served by applying the same revised pageblock to both parties. What do others think? Guy (help! - typo?) 01:54, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- I did not go past 1RR so I respectfully contest the idea that I should also be sanctioned. If I am to be sanctioned I request the diffs demonstrating that I have crossed the line...failing that I want to know exactly what I have done wrong, otherwise this is completely unfair. I'll be being sanctioned for having been targeted by a disruptive editor. Bacondrum (talk) 02:22, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Diffs showing the editor violated 1rr: First revert, Second revert, both in 24 hours. Here are the reports for the past three times in the last year and a half the user has the done same exact thing: 1, 2, 3. That's just to substantiate what I said when I pointed out the user was disregarding 1RR, something I very politely broached with them on their talk page (and which had absolutely no effect -- they continued making changes after claiming to have self reverted).
- When I filed a report, Bacondrum, consistent with prior reports, offered a mix of faux apologies and crying wolf about being "harassed" claiming to be blameless, and that apparently worked; Inexplicably, this was closed without any action. For good measure, JzG, an admin who clearly agrees with this user about the page in question — I referenced above that JzG used the term "fash" and "neo-fascist apologist" to describe the subject Andy Ngo, and for the record, Bacondrum has used similar language at Talk:Andy Ngo -- unilaterally imposed a two-month ban, claiming I should have had notice about not editing at Antifa (United States) because of a page block at Andy Ngo. Apparently the same did not apply to Bacondrum, who violated 1RR at that page while under the same block, which seemingly is fine, but I should have known not to make any bold edits at that page or ones that other editors might possibly disagree with, no matter how minor. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 02:34, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Wikieditor19920, you won't win much sympathy here with your continued attacks against JzG here. You made your point that you disagree with how they have handled this dispute but you continue making personal attacks that can result in a sanction in itself. Diffs are more convincing that sharp language. Liz Read! Talk! 03:51, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Liz:, Not one aspect of what I wrote is a personal attack, I am referencing specific comments by JzG and my issues with their action here. But thank you for the reminder that any criticism of an administrator is liable to be misconstrued or just misrepresented.
- Wikieditor19920, you won't win much sympathy here with your continued attacks against JzG here. You made your point that you disagree with how they have handled this dispute but you continue making personal attacks that can result in a sanction in itself. Diffs are more convincing that sharp language. Liz Read! Talk! 03:51, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Springee, well, yes, because without it nobody would know or care who Ngo is. His popularity among the fash is entirely down to his crusade against Antifa and his apologia for neo-Nazis. Guy (help! - typo?) 09:15, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Andy_Ngo&diff=prev&oldid=984654558&diffmode=source DiffWikieditor19920, which I did, but the RfC is specifically designed to discuss a single word, whereas most of the sources I have seen (and all the recent ones) either don't use it, or qualify it. Because, you know, he's a grifter. Guy (help! - typo?) 12:36, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
Diff
And the other user involved mirrored those same comments in kind:
Ngo is the very definition of a Hack writer - nothing more, nothing less. This is a ridiculous argument. Bacondrum (talk) 21:05, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
Apparently, my mistake was suggesting that maybe we shouldn't use such language. My life would be a lot easier if I hopped on the boat and bashed the subject. But because I don't, I'm treated like an enemy by admins like JzG, and the burden is on me to prove I'm a "good guy" or on the "right side." Absolutely ridiculous. And in the meantime, when you happen to agree editorially with the admins about this kind of stuff, magically 1RR violations are written off or ignored. This type of behavior and misuse of admin tools does harm to the credibility of the site as a whole. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 04:22, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- And let's just be clear about what exactly JzG has presented as the basis to justify a 3-month topic ban on two pages. I changed this:
Antifa political activists are anti-racists who engage in protest tactics, seeking to combat fascists and racists such as neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other far-right extremists. This may involve digital activism, harassment, physical violence, and property damage against those whom they identify as belonging to the far right. Much antifa activism is nonviolent, such as poster and flyer campaigns, delivering speeches, marching in protest, and community organizing.
To this:
Antifa political activists are anti-racists who engage in protest tactics, seeking to combat fascists and racists such as neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other far-right extremists. This may involve digital activism, harassment, physical violence, and property damage, and nonviolent activities such as poster and flyer campaigns, delivering speeches, marching in protest, and community organizing.
There is absolutely nothing ban-worthy about this edit. I had not made any similar or partial reverts in the past 24 or 48 hours and it was a limited change. And yet, for a 1RR violation, he happily accepts false denials from Bacondrum that he did nothing wrong regarding 1RR and is technically correct, despite diffs obviously showing otherwise and the fact that this user has repeated the same conduct thrice before. This was an abusive block stemming from an editorial disagreement over a bold edit. This is exemplified by the unjustifiably lenient and chummy treatment towards an editor engaging in actual violations of DS but who happens to be on the "right side" of the disagreement. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 05:41, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Question:User:JzG Maybe I miss something but aren't you WP:INVOLVED in AP? --ְְShrike (talk) 07:10, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Shrike, Not in this article, to my knowledge, but that is why I brought it here for review by other admins. Guy (help! - typo?) 08:40, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- JzG, I think the best course of action is too ask a sanction here or at WP:AE and then impose it by uninvolved admin if it justified --Shrike (talk) 08:47, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- I don't see why that'd be necessary, or how Guy is too involved to enact a sanction themselves?
- As far as the sanction itself goes, am I correct in thinking that there are no individually problematic diffs here, rather the issue is persistent large-scale bold additions to controversial parts (eg the lead), which are quickly reverted for being bold, and a lack of awareness that their approach may not be best for this particular article? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 09:36, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- JzG, I think the best course of action is too ask a sanction here or at WP:AE and then impose it by uninvolved admin if it justified --Shrike (talk) 08:47, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Shrike, Not in this article, to my knowledge, but that is why I brought it here for review by other admins. Guy (help! - typo?) 08:40, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Because they involved in the same topic and have opposite POVs --Shrike (talk) 10:03, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- JzG, why don't you point to these "non-trivial edits." Was it where I removed a total of about 12 words from the lead? Or where I removed sources citing WP:CITEOVERKILL, and was reverted by a user before the exact same change was re-added by Bacondrum? Because you have not provided a single diff either here or on my talk page, but you seem to rely on false representations by Bacondrum that 1) his making two reverts within 24h isn't "technically" edit warring, and that my making changes to same page over the course of a week is? @ProcrastinatingReader: And can you point to any of these "persistent, large-scale" additionals to controversial parts, or are you aware that my largest edit merely removed 15 words? As with JzG, who is 100% WP:INVOLVED, you did not read the diffs.
- Shrike You are exactly correct. Not only do JzG and I apparently have different points of view about the article, I'm insufficiently committed to his points of view about the subjects themselves. And as for AE, What's the point? It's an obviously unjustified ban, but when I reported Bacondrum for his persistent edit warring, another admin, Black Kite, just closed it without explanation or action and suggested there was "no violation" despite diffs. Totally incomprehensible. And yet, JzG presents innocuous a completely contrived violation here -- rehashing baseless arguments by Bacondrum -- and boom, three-month ban. If we can find an admin to ignore Bacondrum's obvious edit-warring and JzG can use admin tools with impunity against editors whose views he considers incorrect, whose to say another admin won't just come in and rubber stamp whatever he does? That's pretty much how it works around here. I also find it hilarious when JzG claims he "respects me personally," yet accuses me of anti-Muslim bias for editing Linda Sarsour (which I got to GA status), when I called him out on his outrageous comments at Andy Ngo. This is a WP:INVOLVED admin using their tools granted by the community to punish an opposing editor for a frivolous, contrived violation, even as they ignore open violations of discretionary sanctions by others. And he's not the only one. But I'm afraid the likely outcome is another admin will come in, draw some artificial distinction to justify it. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 11:07, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not accusing you of anything - I'm trying to clarify the TLDR of the reason for the ban in the view of the sanctioning admin.
- However,
And can you point to any of these "persistent, large-scale" additionals to controversial parts, or are you aware that my largest edit merely removed 15 words?
seems quite inaccurate. I just looked at the history at a skim which shows sets of major changes to the lead from you (eg Special:Diff/988739848/988769763, Special:Diff/989452230/989455729, Special:Diff/990109873/990137392, or Special:Diff/990687183), and each being swiftly reverted, by 3 different editors. - And, as some advice, the walls of text above are not helping, and such format may be more suited for WP:AE. Take the appeal there, or if you'd rather the conversation happen here, could you please actually let other people converse? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:19, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- @ProcrastinatingReader: That's fine. But just realize that all of those "major" changes are removal of citations and minor changes to wording, which were reverted as a knee-jerk reaction by one user until the talk page realized that my suggestion might have some merit and accepted the same changes from another user. My edits were fully within WP:BRD, and each set of changes I made sought to account for points articulated at the talk page by others, which, contrary to what JzG represented, I was an active and regular participant in. And the kicker here is that the other user in fact violated 1RR but has been allowed a pass for it by two admins now. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 11:27, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- I think it's better for everyone to be on the same page first before anyone starts trying to make an argument which may not even match with Guy's reasoning for the sanction. Somehow, 4 diffs has been turned into all of the text above, which is somewhat hard to navigate. You're also kinda repeating the same points and trying to turn this into something that is, in my view, irrelevant to the matter of whether you or anyone else should be blocked or unblocked here.
- As far as 1RR on the other editor goes, I presume you're referring to Special:Diff/989462509/990109873? If so, whilst that rewording is perhaps technically within the scope of the definition of a "revert" if taken very literally, from a quick glance it appears it did not revert your actions (which were wholly reverted in Special:Diff/989462509 by another editor) or anyone else's in recent time. Unless I'm mistaken there, and I have only quickly glanced, I don't particularly believe in sanctioning someone for technical violations which show no intent to edit war. You link to User_talk:Bacondrum#Antifa above, and the editor seemingly tried to communicate with you and seems confused, and you did not respond? Seemingly the editor tried to resolve your concern in Special:Diff/990139380 but had no clue what you were talking about. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:58, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Ugh. I have just found Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Bacondrum_reported_by_User:Wikieditor19920_(Result:_Closed), and now I'm mildly frustrated at my time being wasted here. This seems quite disingenuous to me, and trying to get another editor sanctioned under a legalese, technical definition of revert (aka, a copyedit), after it has already been resolved, is quite inappropriate. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:07, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- @ProcrastinatingReader: You should either follow accurately what's going on or stay out of it. You claim you don't believe in a
technical violations which show no intent to edit war
. 1RR is not a technical violation, it's edit warring. I filed a report only after asking the user to stop, politely. They said they would, then continued to edit war, and lied about it on the AN3 page. This editor is not confused in the least -- they acknowledged the 1RR violation, continued it, and then denied it after being reported. This is their third time being blocked or warned for the same violation, as I linked above, and yet editors like you still give them the benefit of the doubt based on an unconvincing set of claims of ignorance. Of course, when I make changes to language, it isn't written off as a copy edit, but when this user does so outside the limits of 1RR, it's copy editing. So you hate "legalese," but apply it for me and not this other editor? These are exactly the phony distinctions that I was talking about earlier. You're right about one thing: I'm not going to keep re-explaining myself to editors who arbitrarily pre-judge a situation without even looking at what transpired, or selectively choose to ignore facts. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 13:48, 26 November 2020 (UTC)- Three uninvolved administrators have rejected that report there, and one further administrator has criticised your approach here. Your tripling down is greatly unfortunate. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:58, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- And they are wrong. I'll provide the diffs again. First revert., Second revert. Two distinct reverts interrupted by another user's edits within a 24 hour period. But when you're just looking for a post hoc justification to nail someone you don't like or disagree with, what do facts matter? Wikieditor19920 (talk) 14:03, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- I don't know you or the other editor, and I couldn't care less for the Antifa article. So perhaps a good start here is to acknowledge that every admin and editor who says your assertions are false aren't all conspiring against you. The first edit is not an obvious revert, as multiple uninvolved admins at ANEW have told you. I still don't have a view on your original block, but I take a very dim view of this persistent, meritless attempt to pull down another editor, at least on this "1RR" charge. It is unacceptable, and you should stop. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:10, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- @ProcrastinatingReader: I'm not going to continue arguing about this with you. You have no idea about the situation and are another jumping on the bandwagon. But just so we're actually dealing in reality, the first edit is a direct revert of this previous edit.Wikieditor19920 (talk) 14:25, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- I don't know you or the other editor, and I couldn't care less for the Antifa article. So perhaps a good start here is to acknowledge that every admin and editor who says your assertions are false aren't all conspiring against you. The first edit is not an obvious revert, as multiple uninvolved admins at ANEW have told you. I still don't have a view on your original block, but I take a very dim view of this persistent, meritless attempt to pull down another editor, at least on this "1RR" charge. It is unacceptable, and you should stop. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:10, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- And they are wrong. I'll provide the diffs again. First revert., Second revert. Two distinct reverts interrupted by another user's edits within a 24 hour period. But when you're just looking for a post hoc justification to nail someone you don't like or disagree with, what do facts matter? Wikieditor19920 (talk) 14:03, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Three uninvolved administrators have rejected that report there, and one further administrator has criticised your approach here. Your tripling down is greatly unfortunate. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:58, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- @ProcrastinatingReader: You should either follow accurately what's going on or stay out of it. You claim you don't believe in a
- @ProcrastinatingReader: That's fine. But just realize that all of those "major" changes are removal of citations and minor changes to wording, which were reverted as a knee-jerk reaction by one user until the talk page realized that my suggestion might have some merit and accepted the same changes from another user. My edits were fully within WP:BRD, and each set of changes I made sought to account for points articulated at the talk page by others, which, contrary to what JzG represented, I was an active and regular participant in. And the kicker here is that the other user in fact violated 1RR but has been allowed a pass for it by two admins now. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 11:27, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Comment - Administrators might want to look at their conduct at the Pit bull article, including edits like this and their numerous talk page edits where much of the same behavior is demonstrated - discussing bold edits through edit summaries, removal of sourced content, introduction of NPOV language, etc. PearlSt82 (talk) 16:23, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
discussing bold edits through edit summaries
. Do you mean in addition to discussing my changes on the talk page? It's really interesting where a detailed edit summary is contrived as a violation. See this RfC on sources, where I directly discussed concerns at that page with arguments/content presented by PearlSt82, which I was only briefly involved in, and where other users agreed with my points. Shame on you for misrepresenting that, PearlSt82. "Introducing NPOV language" and "removing sourced" material" is a one-sided way of presenting editorial disagreements as if they somehow show wrongdoing. I'm also presuming you meant to say "POV language," which is just false; my changes in fact added what I saw as genuinely NPOV language, which is precisely what we should be doing. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 17:05, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Further examples of bias and inappropriate commentary between JzG and Bacondrum at Talk:Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory
So that it's clear I'm not the only one who's encountered this problem: At another page, these two users exchange barbs over a discussion of sources that went well beyond the line.
Davide King, cultural marxism moved into the media mainstream the same way that climate change denial did: through motivated reasoning by grifters. Being part of the mainstream doesn't stop it being bullshit. Guy (help! - typo?) 21:15, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
JzG Hit the nail on the head. Spot on. I think the issue is that some people are rightly embarrassed to find out they have been regurgitating a Nazi era antisemitic conspiracy, so they get upset about it and make up excuses. Bacondrum (talk) 21:44, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
Without delving into the complexities here, both editors apparently use hostile, aggressive language in reference to editorial disagreements between editors and vitriolic accusations are thrown about casually in the same manner I pointed out at the Andy Ngo article, from these same two editors.
- In another thread, in response to another disagreement, Bacondrum replies to the opposing editor in the dispute:
Oh my. What a tantrum. Oh well, bye...WP:NOTCOMPULSORY That thread makes me want to quit, what a bunch of whinging bullshit. Bacondrum (talk) 20:52, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
It is laughable how some commenters here are trying to pin the blame on me for "pulling down a good editor" for calling out Bacondrum's edit warring. This editor calls names and attacks others the moment any kind of disagreement arises, in a brutal and personal way. Despite seemingly distancing himself from this behavior from Bacondrum at the start of this thread, JzG either participates in the conduct or gives a symbolic wag of the finger and a wink for what should be a patent violation of WP:CIVIL and grounds to ask the user to take a break from the page. If this isn't either incompetence or bias by an administrator, I don't know what is, and JzG's actions against me are just one part of that pattern. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 17:34, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- You're pretty clear about your take on JzG, but, reading the above, I don't see a single editor who agrees with you. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:28, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- The evidence is posted above says all there is to say. But knocks like yours, Beyond My Ken, have absolutely nothing to do with substance and everything to do with making someone feel isolated, regardless of whether or not they bring up a valid point. I'm surprised that's the only thing you have to say, given your past issues with Bacondrum mirroring mine, but everyone's entitled to their opinion. (And yet, Shrike seems to understand exactly what I'm saying, so your observation is also not correct.) Wikieditor19920 (talk) 19:38, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Actually, you should read Shrike's comments again, because they have little to do with your complaint, and are more general in nature. Not every possible criticism of JzG means that the person agrees with you. Nor do my past disagreements with Bacondrum -- we're now on good terms, BTW -- have anything whatsoever to do with this case -- but I guess you're just grasping at straws and striking out at anyone who comes here to comment because your complaints are not getting the least bit of traction. That possibly also accounts for your WP:BLUDGEONing this discussion with repetitive WP:BATTLEGROUNDy walls of text.I suggest that the Law of holes applies here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:56, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Beyond My Ken: Call it whatever you want. I stand by what I've said about the severe and arbitrary nature of this block by JzG and the evidence I presented. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 20:42, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Fine. Could you please learn how to properly indent discussion comments? Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:10, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Beyond My Ken: Call it whatever you want. I stand by what I've said about the severe and arbitrary nature of this block by JzG and the evidence I presented. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 20:42, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
It's easy to dig diffs, talk page notices, or disputes from the past four years and claim whatever you want and ignore my contribtuions, but the fact is any editor involved in AmPol has butted heads with others and engaged in passionate debates. When you are on the "wrong" side of those debates, it always seems to attract "warnings" and other sort of attention. The way that editors pull years-old threads out of context is just silly. @Bishonen: cites a thread where I asked another editor, who repeatedly appeared at pages I was editing to revert me, to not WP:STALK my edits if they were doing so, as "illustrative." The user got hostile and filed an ANI, which was ignored and archived. Other users who had followed the situation at that thread noted that I did absolutely nothing wrong, but Bishonen presents it here as damning evidence of I don't know what. I'm familiar with Bishonen's work and respect them, but this is just so one-sided and misleading.
If I had used the phrase "grifter" or "(insert negative association)-apologist" to describe any mainstream, popular subject, without providing a source, I would have been indeffed without question, as would any regular user. And that would be the right decision against any editor coming into AmPol with that kind of attitude. But again, you would never find one such example of any statement by me. But if I criticize those expressions coming from an admin -- especially one who just banned me from a page we've both been involved in -- then apparently that is a "personal attack" or "battlegrounding." I never claimed perfection, despite the accusations that I've never shown introspection, but apparently it's much easier to simply resort to punitive and extreme ban proposals and avoid an uncomfortable discussion about why the conduct I highlighted above is either tolerated or encouraged by admins freely and what kind of problem that creates for a productive atmosphere. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 22:06, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
You can dig up diffs or disputes from the past four years
Anything you'd like to disclose? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 22:18, 26 November 2020 (UTC)- @ProcrastinatingReader: Sorry, are you asking for something specific or just every time I've had a disagreement, made an edit that was reverted, or objected to something in an article? Wikieditor19920 (talk) 22:27, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- You know what, there is. Bishonen outrageously accuses me of "POV" without a shred of evidence, even as I've presented multiple examples of here, in the specific conduct I took issue with, of admins and users actively deriding and expressing negative opinions about the subject of a BLP. This ridiculous double-standard reminds me of a comment raised by a user at the thread Bishonen provided:
@Bishonen: One of the complainants here has told another editor in an American politics related MfD: [309] How about you and your whole busybody crew fuck right off!! Back when that happened, it was mentioned at AE etc. and nothing was thought of it. Now you are warning Wikieditor19992 for far, far less. It seems that there are two sets of standards at play. Different rules are applied for different editors depending on whether they follow the house POV.
Wikieditor19920 (talk) 22:47, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- I meant that your account is from 2018, but you say four years, so I'm just curious what you were editing on beforehand? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:07, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- @ProcrastinatingReader: None, that is my rough guess about how long I've been editing Wikipedia for (i.e. been using this single and only account). It's not something I keep track of, and it may be 3 or 2.5. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 23:11, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- So, you're saying that your "rough guess" about how long your tenure on Wikipedia has been (2 years and 8 months) is 4 years or 3 or 2.5? That's believable. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:39, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- That's right. I just checked the diff again, it was September 2018. Congratulations. It's not something I sit around and think about or keep track of, but I would figure you to assume bad faith or infer something nefarious. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 23:47, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- As with much of your editing, it probably wouldn't hurt you to think a little more about what you're doing before you do it. Perhaps then you might realize that there's no reason for the 14th repetitive wall-of-text argument because the previous 13 pretty much said what you wanted to say, and you're only creating a bad impression by saying it again. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:14, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- That's right. I just checked the diff again, it was September 2018. Congratulations. It's not something I sit around and think about or keep track of, but I would figure you to assume bad faith or infer something nefarious. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 23:47, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- So, you're saying that your "rough guess" about how long your tenure on Wikipedia has been (2 years and 8 months) is 4 years or 3 or 2.5? That's believable. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:39, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- @ProcrastinatingReader: None, that is my rough guess about how long I've been editing Wikipedia for (i.e. been using this single and only account). It's not something I keep track of, and it may be 3 or 2.5. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 23:11, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Use of admin tools by a WP:INVOLVED admin to impose a three-month ban for an extremely minor edit
- Concerning expressions used about a BLP
- Seemingly arbitrary standards applied in resolving an editorial dispute with sanctions
Could I have expressed myself better? Sure. But the proposed WP:PUNITIVE block addresses nothing, and it feels like retribution for my having criticized an admin who subsequently requested a desysop. I don't know if it's related, but the fact that this administrator did so immediately afterward raises an obvious question about the propriety of the intial block. And rather than addressing this point, ProcrastinatingReader brings up talk page notices from 2018 to aggressively lobby to have me blocked for bringing it up. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 01:43, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Hi, @Slywriter:, just to clarify, are you referring to me when you describe American politically conservative editors? If so, I'm going to ask you to strike that, because you are a) mischaracterizing my views and b) you really don't have any information to characterize my views, party registration, or personal beliefs in the first place. My concerns about disparaging a BLP extend to all pages regardless of any ideological spectrum they fall on, as I already indicated. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 02:00, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, @Slywriter:. Agree that that kind of material is frustrating, disagree that I went lower by bringing it up, but appreciate the feedback. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 02:11, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- May not be my finest use of the english language but my point is if you keep finding yourself dragged onto the drama boards by other editors/admins then you should take a step back and ask why and how can I avoid it going forward. Now unfortunately, the community may force that upon you but I do think it would be a net negative to Wikipedia for that ban to be a complete one that drives you away from the project Slywriter (talk) 02:38, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Appreciate it! We'll see what happens. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 02:40, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- For those who seem to suggest my only positive contributions have been outside AmPol, this is untrue. I helped bring Linda Sarsour to GA status as well, one at the intersection of AmPol and PIA. It's far more difficult to make those kinds of changes on a page where every edit is challenged and argued about, as opposed to that of a small college or little known academic, but I accomplished it, why? Because my edits were neutral and well thought out (as were those of the others who I was working with). So it's simply wrong to dismiss my work in that area of the encyclopedia based on a few unfortunate encounters. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 12:07, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- May not be my finest use of the english language but my point is if you keep finding yourself dragged onto the drama boards by other editors/admins then you should take a step back and ask why and how can I avoid it going forward. Now unfortunately, the community may force that upon you but I do think it would be a net negative to Wikipedia for that ban to be a complete one that drives you away from the project Slywriter (talk) 02:38, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Comment
I appreciate the overall message and tone of Wugapodes's comments, while I disagree with the suggested remedy. Even so, I'm seeing several editors attributing to me supposedly persistent battle-grounding, personal attacks, and everything in the book. While I don't think anyone who's edited AP-32 (including myself) can say they never once said something that they wish they had phrased differently, I resent the rush to judgement on topic bans and indeffs, severe and punitive remedies, without a single diff showing me disrespecting another editor, attacking another editor, or making an unfounded accusation. ProcrastinatingReader accused me of "parading attacks" against the user Bacondrum and filing a "frivolous report" at WP:AN3. I disagree but accepted the outcome. The response by Bacondrum was to:
- File a report against me titled "Using noticeboards to get revenge"
- Post a long comment criticizing me on the Talk:Antifa (United States)
This is not me "attacking" the user, this is what happend. It was then that JzG decided they would unilaterally, and without warning or notice, ban me for three months at two pages where they have been WP:INVOLVED, while letting Bacondrum off with a mere warning for the 1RR matter and their follow-up comments about me on multiple talk pages. Even the edit by me that JzG supposedly premised this on was exceedingly minor: I merged two sentences, removing a phrase objected to by another editor, and removed sources, something that others including Bacondrum agreed with on the talk page. This is not the kind of conduct that should lead to a T-ban. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 23:46, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Block proposed
- Indef for ongoing attacks and frivolous litigation against Bacondrum, a few steps removed from harassment, here and at ANEW; plus their track record of incivility and personal attacks from a skim of ANI & their talk page history; plus battleground behaviour; persistent bludgeoning -- all of which are on display above. That includes [2][3][4][5] (warned by Bishonen), multiple warnings for such conduct [6][7][8], prior sanctions [9][10] by @TonyBallioni and Black Kite. Regular throughout their tenure [11][12][13], gaining the attention of no less than a dozen totally different admins. Too many issues, regardless of any content merits. @Liz and Swarm: gave advice for
self-reflection on your approach to collaborative editing on Wikipedia and ask yourself whether this is an environment you can work in
one month ago, andat the heart of this dispute is not reverts but battleground behavior across several forums [...] if this dispute between you and Bacondrum continues [...] you will face a more serious sanction
; this advice apparently hasn't worked. This kind of conduct drives editors away, which we are already in short supply of, and wastes the time of others, whilst deteroriating the editing atmosphere, and hence should not entertained for this long. Unfortunately, I feel another AP2 TBAN (their previous, 3mo forbattleground behaviour
, expired) will be insufficient, especially given thelack of introspection
above, plus narrow editing interest and the broadness of the issues. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:28, 26 November 2020 (UTC) - Support indef. ProcrastinatingReader offers an impressive/depressing collection of diffs and links, including noticeboard threads illustrating the way people are worn down by Wikieditor19920's wordy and untiring POV-pushing. As I'm always saying, the time and patience of constructive editors is Wikipedia's foremost resource, and this editor is depleting that resource. This thread, which slid into the archives without a close, may be the most illustrative of all. And the warnings and sanctions, such as a three-month Am Pol T-ban, seem to have had very little effect on the user's style and attitude. If the proposal for an indefinite block doesn't gain traction, I suggest another T-ban from American politics, but this time not time-limited but indefinite. That does not mean forever, but it does mean there has to be constructive and useful editing in other areas, probably for at least six months, followed by a convincing unban request. I actually think it's time for an indefinite block, though. Bishonen | tålk 21:44, 26 November 2020 (UTC).
- Support indef After reading PR's diffs and especially, Bishonen's pointer to the January thread, I think an indef block is well-deserved to protect Wikipedia from WE19220's disruptive and harassing behaviors. Like Bishonen, I also support an indef AP2 Tban if there is no consensus for an indef block. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:01, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support AP2 TBAN; Oppose CBAN An indefinite block after a community discussion is essentially a community ban, and I don't think we're at that point yet. I think there's enough disruption to warrant a broad topic ban from the more contentious parts of the encyclopedia though, and a TBAN let's us see if WE19220 can contribute positively or whether a CBAN should follow. — Wug·a·po·des 00:12, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- FTR, the issues extend to PIA also (see many of the links), so a ban would also have to cover that topic area imo if going TBAN route. But didn't you tell me these discussions are hard to do again? ;p That discussion blocked that editor for far less issues. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 01:10, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Sure throw in PIA too. An indef TBAN (like this) is different from a time-limited one (like in the example you give). A time-limited TBAN means that even if there's still problems we have to have a whole new conversation which--in that specific case--was unlikely to happen since the original thread had to be resurrected from the archive just to get sanctions in the first place. Meanwhile, any admin can indef WE19220 if they continue to be disruptive--we don't need a community discussion for that--and especially if they violate the TBAN. WE19220 seems to be productive outside these areas--they've started articles on academics and alumni and brought Goucher College up to GA. Jumping straight to an indef CBAN is a lot when they can clearly behave just fine outside these areas. That's what TBANs are for. — Wug·a·po·des 03:04, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'm usually the one who supports lesser sanctions, but for this kind of behaviour, which is a cancer to any collaborative environment, I genuinely do not see why anyone wants to allow this. You see one GA, I see the GAs that didn't happen because the editors were driven away. The editor says above the discussions I linked are from 2018, when most of them are from 2020, some not even a month ago. They think every uninvolved admin was against them. They do not get it; can you honestly say this conduct is rehabilitatable?
- Sorry, I cannot get behind your idea that any admin would indef themselves: nobody did so to date, instead opting for slaps on the wrist. Neither whilst this editor paraded their attacks on Bacondrum above - the very thing they were warned against doing - on the administrators noticeboard, one of the most watchlisted pages on this site. That a community discussion is now required is an administrative failure. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 09:14, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Our blocks aren't punitive, they are preventative, and since the disruption seems limited to defined topic areas, we can prevent disruption by banning WE19220 from those topics. I'd support a CBAN if those were the only areas to which WE19220 contributed, but it's not. I can come up with tons of hypothetical GAs that might have been written, but it doesn't change the fact that WE19220 actually wrote some and a CBAN won't magically make those hypothetical GAs or editors suddenly appear. The GAs and creations by WE19220 aren't even in the area of conflict; I'm not going to support a CBAN because someone thinks WE19220 will be disruptive outside of the TBAN areas since we have clear evidence that WE19220 can contribute fine outside of this topic area.People can change, even between topic areas, and we have many editors--even some admins--who started their careers with indef vandalism blocks or successfully appealed CBANs. In fact, I make it a personal goal to welcome back every contributor who successfully appeals a CBAN (e.g., Mar 2020, Nov 2020) per meatball:WelcomeNewcomer and meatball:ForgiveAndForget. So to your question
can you honestly say this conduct is rehabilitatable?
Yes, because I've seen it multiple times. It is far better to try and retain and reform editors where we can rather than kicking out people we don't like and hoping others magically appear. It is hard to get people to contribute, I say having run edit-a-thons and doing outreach with academics. You can wax philosophic about editor recruitment and retention, but kicking WE19220 out won't magically solve our problems and it is unfair to make them a scapegoat of a problem they're barely even part of. We have tons of editors who simply cannot contribute well in certian areas--Beyond My Ken, who is supporting a CBAN, is under an editing restriction himself. The Rambling Man has a topic ban and multiple interaction bans. We literally have TBANs for this exact reason and we should use them before resorting to more drastic measures like complete removal from the community.Finally, speaking as an admin, slapping an indef on someone in the middle of a community discussion is usually frowned upon per WP:SUPERVOTE. The ban discussion you started is why admins are hesitant to dole out sanctions because it could be seen as circumventing community discussion. Is that right or good? I don't know, but it's certainly strange to fault all admins for not taking action sooner on something we found out about literally a couple hours ago and which is actively being discussed by the community. Could the admins in the past done more? Sure. But they didn't and I'm not going to punish WE19220 now just because other admins were too kind. I'll certainly look at the blocks to find out where disruption is likely to continue to occur and take action to prevent that disruption, which is why I oppose a CBAN and prefer a TBAN: WE19220 seems fine outside of politically contentious areas. — Wug·a·po·des 22:44, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Our blocks aren't punitive, they are preventative, and since the disruption seems limited to defined topic areas, we can prevent disruption by banning WE19220 from those topics. I'd support a CBAN if those were the only areas to which WE19220 contributed, but it's not. I can come up with tons of hypothetical GAs that might have been written, but it doesn't change the fact that WE19220 actually wrote some and a CBAN won't magically make those hypothetical GAs or editors suddenly appear. The GAs and creations by WE19220 aren't even in the area of conflict; I'm not going to support a CBAN because someone thinks WE19220 will be disruptive outside of the TBAN areas since we have clear evidence that WE19220 can contribute fine outside of this topic area.People can change, even between topic areas, and we have many editors--even some admins--who started their careers with indef vandalism blocks or successfully appealed CBANs. In fact, I make it a personal goal to welcome back every contributor who successfully appeals a CBAN (e.g., Mar 2020, Nov 2020) per meatball:WelcomeNewcomer and meatball:ForgiveAndForget. So to your question
- Sure throw in PIA too. An indef TBAN (like this) is different from a time-limited one (like in the example you give). A time-limited TBAN means that even if there's still problems we have to have a whole new conversation which--in that specific case--was unlikely to happen since the original thread had to be resurrected from the archive just to get sanctions in the first place. Meanwhile, any admin can indef WE19220 if they continue to be disruptive--we don't need a community discussion for that--and especially if they violate the TBAN. WE19220 seems to be productive outside these areas--they've started articles on academics and alumni and brought Goucher College up to GA. Jumping straight to an indef CBAN is a lot when they can clearly behave just fine outside these areas. That's what TBANs are for. — Wug·a·po·des 03:04, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- FTR, the issues extend to PIA also (see many of the links), so a ban would also have to cover that topic area imo if going TBAN route. But didn't you tell me these discussions are hard to do again? ;p That discussion blocked that editor for far less issues. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 01:10, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose CBAN / Support TBAN (Broadly) The leeway given to certain editors in how poorly they treat subjects of articles on talk pages can be frustrating for
american politically conservativeeditors (Though I stand by the original statement, Wikieditor is right that I lack the information to apply said statement to his specific circumstances). It even gets to the point where you believe that they are out to getconservativeseditors that disagree with them. However, when they go low, you go lower is not the wikipedia way and Wikieditor needs a break from AP2 for everyone's sanity and so that they can understand wikipedia is ultimately not a battleground for supremacy of ideology. Reliable Sources, rationale debate and avoiding personal attacks is a much better way to improve articles. Slywriter (talk) 01:55, 27 November 2020 (UTC) - Support indef I haven't seen this editor before, but reading through this thread and linked discussions I can see a history of battleground editing which many warnings, noticeboard discussions, topic bans and blocks haven't been able to stop. The editors we actually want to retain on these articles are the ones who don't engage in battleground editing, and we're not doing them a service by tolerating this. I suppose a topic ban from modern US politics would take care of the immediate problem, but these are issues which are likely to crop up elsewhere. If we have to impose multiple topic bans, as suggested above, then that's definitely a situation where we should be looking at an indefinite block. Hut 8.5 08:46, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose JzG's descriptions of Ngo as a "grifter" and Ngo's actions as "apologia for neo-Nazis" are inappropriate. Wikieditor19920 has been right to scrutinize such BLP treatment, and I think it would be dangerous BLP-wise to remove editors who make sure that stuff like this doesn't get a free pass. Sadly, too often discussion in the AP32- topic area is hostile, and certainly Wikieditor19920 could do his part and improve. But it seems biased to ignore JzG's track record or consider criticism of Bacondrum as "frivolous litigation" when he has multiple blocks for edit-warring and battleground attitude. At that point it becomes sniping for POV. --Pudeo (talk) 08:56, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support TBAN / Oppose CBAN. Pretty much per Wugapodes; it appears that 19220 can contribute positively to the encylopedia in areas that aren't contentious; it would seem a shame to lose that. Black Kite (talk) 11:09, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support indef as first choice per Hut8.5, second choice TBANs from AP and ARBPIA - indefinite with appeal possible after 6 months. This is based on what I've seen of his edits over time and nothing to do with NGO or JzG. --Doug Weller talk 11:58, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose We have to see the full context here yes I think user should take a step back but admins shouldn't take actions in discretionary area that there are WP:INVOLVED even if they didn't edit certain article there are proper procedures for this --20:27, 27 November 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shrike (talk • contribs) .
- (1) It's far from clear that Guy was "involved" as defined by WP:INVOLVED. (2) People should actually read WP:INVOLVED once in a while, especially the part that says: "...the community has historically endorsed the obvious action of any administrator – even if involved – on the basis that any reasonable administrator would have probably come to the same conclusion." (3) Guy brought his action here for consideration as to its appropriateness. The fact that we're now !voting about a possible sanction for Wikieditor19920, in which a number of admins have endorsed a sanction stricter than Guy put in place, and a reading of the section above indicates that the community's consensus as well as the consensus of admins is behind Guy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:08, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose - Not seeing enough for a indef. Most of the examples above are overlaps and links to the same thing over and over. I am concerned with the same people showing up over and over with warnings and threats. That gets less and less productive every time it happens. PackMecEng (talk) 22:34, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- That cuts both ways. The same people show up to defend... Just sayin'. --Valjean (talk) 23:33, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Not so much actually if you look at the overall people involved. Sure there are a few that show up defending them, but the vast majority are on the other end. Your comment reads more like WP:FALSEBALANCE. PackMecEng (talk) 00:13, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- That cuts both ways. The same people show up to defend... Just sayin'. --Valjean (talk) 23:33, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support CBAN, with TBAN second choice Time is precious here, and I don't have much patience with editors who are timesinks. Miniapolis 23:30, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support TBan (AP2) per Black Kite and Doug Weller. -- Valjean (talk) 23:33, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support CBAN first; broad TBAN second per Doug Weller.--Jorm (talk) 01:07, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose, Wikieditor19920 should be more succinct, but other than that he is a constructive editor. 11Fox11 (talk) 06:57, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support CBAN as first choice. PR's links above show sufficient disruption that I believe this editor to be a net negative. Support INDEF TBAN from AP2 & PIA as second choice. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:34, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support indef as first choice, with TBAN as second choice per the concerns raised by Miniapolis and Doug Weller. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:35, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support indef and AP2/ARBPIA topic bans. Whereas I don't see any knock-out diffs that alone would warrant an indef, persistent arguing-to-death is very corrosive in a collaborative community and that is worse than a knock-out incident. Johnuniq (talk) 01:11, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose CBAN Personally, I find myself disagreeing with Wikieditor19920 frequently. I think his problem is with WP:BLUDGEONing the process, WP:IDHT and Wikilawyering which I don't think at this point warrant a community ban. If they could just take some of these criticisms on board and drop the persecution complex, they could continue to make worthwhile contributions. But I think their persistence here and refusal to drop the stick will result in some sanctions. Their complaints about a relatively limited page block (two articles?) might result in a topic ban or community ban. Not a smart move to take it this far. Liz Read! Talk! 05:27, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support ONLY AP2 TBAN, oppose indefinite ban, I think that a lot of this editor's contributions are really good. He just needs to refrain from bludgeoning discussions where he is too passionate. At this point, we should try a limited TBAN. Kate Riley2019 (talk) 03:29, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support AP2 Ban Same reasons as above. Danielyng (talk) 14:19, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
Request for closure
The request for sanctions has been open for 10 days, and the last posted comments is now 5 days old. Could an admin please evaluate the discussion and determine if a sanction is in order or not? Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:11, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- Just want to point out that 20 editors !voted in this discussion, 8 of them admins, so it deserves a formal close and shouldn't just scroll off. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:15, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Unblock request for Truth gatekeeper
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Truth gatekeeper (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Truth gatekeeper was originally blocked on March 20, 2019 by @Bishonen: for "persistent tendentious editing, misuse of sources, and BLP violations". The next day, @Doug Weller: check user blocked per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Truth gatekeeper. They lost TPA and have requested unblocking via UTRS appeal #37213. Check user by @Ponyo: showed no recent socking/blockevasion. The unblock request is fairly detailed and hopefully addresses each of the reasons for their block. It is carried over below. I have restored TPA so they may respond to concerns there.
Dear Sir/Madam, I made an appeal with the key:- (Redacted) However, the appeal was DECLINED. I'm appealing again after improvements based on the last feedback I got. Here are some of my own mistakes and how I will address them, in eight sections (I - VIII):
I). Edit-war and tedious edits:- I will not break the three-revert rule which was one of the things that got me blocked. If by some chance I get a comment to fix something, I will carefully do so, instead of getting into an edit-war and reverting. I will also avoid any tedious edits from now on. Surely I will avoid edit-war from now on, after being blocked for almost two years.
II). My wrong assumption about block:- Two years ago, I thought a block was not serious and that I could always create a new account and bi-pass it, so I was careless in my edits. Now I have seen that the Wikipedia block evasion detection system is quite robust, so I will be extremely careful not to break any of the Wikipedia policies so as not to get blocked again. I have not blocked evaded for over a year and a half now and I will never do so. I have also matured, and I will be careful not to break any of Wikipedia policies.
III). Sources/reference:- I have learned that I must only use very reliable sources. Even on my WP:EVADE a year and a half ago, I have started only using reliable sources. I will even be more careful from now on, and use sources that are very reliable and easily verifiable. I have also for example learned to include the exact quote from the source/reference, I'm using the quote attribute of the "ref" tag ( that is, <ref |quote= EXACT TEXT... ). I started using this in my WP:EVADE a year and a half ago, to make the reference verification easy for the overseeing Admin and for the readers.
IV). Violations of WP:SOCK and WP:EVADE :- I have not done WP:EVADE for over a year and a half now. If I get unblocked now I will of course not do WP:EVADE. As for the WP:SOCK, I only engaged in WP:SOCK after I got blocked, mainly as a block evasion. However, I never engaged in WP:SOCK before I was blocked, so I will of course not engage in WP:SOCK if my block is lifted. I never at a time had more than one account and WP:SOCKed, before I was first blocked. I started to WP:SOCK so hide my WP:EVADE. I have understood that I have SOCKed while trying to EVADE, and that it was extremely wrong of me. But I never SOCKed before I was blocked, and I will not do so if I get unblocked. I will neither EVADE nor SOCK anymore, and I have not done so for the last year and a half.
V). POV issues:- I will be very careful not to do any POV anymore. And I will only use very reliable sources that don't have POV issues like Reuters and British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC), and state things as exactly they are.
VI). Wikipedia policy violations (like NPOV & BLP):- I have gone through the policies, I promise to be very careful from now on. I will follow all of the Wikipedia policies carefully. I will not use sources that have NPOV issues. I will even be extra careful if I edit a Biographies of living persons (BLP), since I have understood that it is a very sensitive thing. I even started making little improvements on this on my WP:EVADE edits a year and a half ago, I will even be extra more careful from now on. And like I said above, I never did WP:EVADE for over a year and a half now, and I will never do it again.
VII). Though I made many more mistakes, few of them are from the Editors. For example, I correctly changed "almost a million have been displaced" by with the correct figure "1.5 million", but I was wrongly accused of distorting the figure ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Truth_gatekeeper/Archive#18_April_2019 ). But even the current Abiy Ahmed Wikipedia-page version says "1.5 million" (like me) backed with many reliable references; furthermore, here is also another source link from a speech quote of Abiy Ahmed himself on the legitimate AfricaNews media that quote him say "After I came, an additional 1.5 million people were displaced." ( https://www.africanews.com/2019/03/29/one-million-displaced-ethiopians-return-home-abiy-meets-press/ ).
VIII). I have a wide range of IP addresses as you saw on your Sockpuppetry-investationgs back then, so I couldn't be blocked by IP-address. I abstained from block evasion for the last year & a half since I personally want to follow Wikipedia's policies and make contributions in the right way. This also shows that the current block is not necessary, because if I wanted to disrupt I can do so even from the computer I'm now writing you this from (since my computer's IP address is not blocked). This shows that I do NOT have the intention to make a disruption, since there isn't any IP block currently stopping me even now if I had the intention to disrupt. Kind regards,Truth gatekeeper.
Thanks, --Deepfriedokra (talk) 08:41, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Weak Support everyone deserves a second chance and this is a well written appeal. However, WP: WALLOFTEXT. --HurricaneTracker495 (talk) 18:53, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Barring CU evidence to the contrary, i support unblocking on the basis of the good appeal above. I do, however, have two suggestions: First, what appears to be the special area of interest/conflict ~ Ethiopia and the Tigray Region ~ is obviously at the moment even more appealing to those of one side or the other, so i suggest Truth gatekeeper stay away from that area consistently and carefully, at least until a better track record is established in contributions; second, i highly recommend a name change, as editing with the perspective that name suggests is like editing as User:World's Greatest Wiki-editor ~ just setting one's self up for a fall; happy days, LindsayHello 19:59, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose - An editor who chooses "Truth gatekeeper" for their screenname is not going to change their stripes, no matter what they say in their appeal. I am not in favor of returning PoV editors to the fold without some sort of safeguard, such as a topic ban. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Comment You're saying that CU by User:Ponyo showed no recent socking. May I ask on what grounds the check was performed? I'm asking because our policy explicitly prohibits checks to "prove innocence." Iaritmioawp (talk) 21:43, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Requests by individual editors to have a check run on their account to prove themselves innocent of a sockpupptry charge are declined. Checking an account with a history of socking as part of an unblock appeal is absolutely permitted by policy (and is often expected).-- Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 21:48, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Users who are blocked for sockpuppetry are routinely checked for ongoing block evasion when they make unblock requests. This is nothing new, and the usual unblock request template includes a link to checkuser which pre-fills the reason "User talk:Username, unblock request" (we have to give a reason for all checks). The prohibition on checks to "prove innocence" relates to checking users when no reasonable suspicion of sockpuppetry has been established. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:51, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Because I could not have proceeded with an unblock appeal w/o checking with a check user first. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 22:03, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Without first consulting a CheckUser, administrators must not undo or alter any block that is specifically identified as a "checkuser" block, such as through the use of the {{{checkuserblock}}} or {{{checkuserblock-account}}} templates in the action summary.[7] If an administrator believes that a checkuser block has been made in error, the administrator should first discuss the matter with the CheckUser in question, and if a satisfactory resolution is not reached, should e-mail the Arbitration Committee. A reversal or alteration of such a block without prior consultation may result in removal of permissions. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 22:12, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- I have no opinion that I wish to express on whether this person should be allowed to edit here, but I agree with others above that the use of this user name can only end in tears. If the appeal is allowed a change of user name should be a condition of returning. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:07, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- I must confess that when I saw that user name I was skeptical. Perhaps appellant can address this issue. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 22:12, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support unblock. It's been a year and a half, they understood what they did wrong, and they've refrained from socking all this time. Let's not second-guess future behavior based on a username. If they want a new username, that's cool, but making it a condition of unblocking seems just plain silly. -- RoySmith (talk) 22:22, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support unblock – per Roy. The username accords with WP:U policy and I don't think my personal opinion about the username should affect whether or not the user can edit. Otherwise I see no reason not to unblock per the principles of WP:SO and WP:ROPE. Levivich harass/hound 03:55, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Support unblock per RoySmith and ROPE. Truth gatekeeper: I think you should strongly consider changing your username to something unambiguously innocent if you are unblocked; think of it as a new name for a (hopefully) clean start. Your current name will only lead people to be skeptical of your intentions and motivations. Best wishes from Los Angeles, // Timothy :: talk 04:28, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Support unblock per above. starship.paint (talk) 05:52, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose unblock this addition is one of few medium/large additions, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tsegede&diff=prev&oldid=884471780 and they all appear to be uncited cut and copy and the few actual content additions they have actually made all appear to be copy paste from the www. I can't see that there will be usefull contributions from the user and so whatever username they edit under I do not support unblock. Govindaharihari (talk) 18:27, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Support Unblock Well written appeal. As you mentioned, you say you have matured over the period that you were blocked; and I can see that from your appeal. Danielyng (talk) 14:23, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- Support Unblock per RoySmith and ROPE. Reading their unblock request they appear to have matured and are now fully aware of what got them blocked and what not to do in future. –Davey2010Talk 19:23, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
replies from Truth gatekeeper
- special:permalink/991611957#UTRS 37213--
I). About my user-name ("Truth gatekeeper"), I have already tried to clarify this on my answer on 20 March 2019 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Truth_gatekeeper#Timesink ). I meant the "Truth gatekeeper" user-name the other way round; meaning that I only want the truth to be written on Wikipedia, and that I want to expose or remove false (and un-referenced) information that has been written on Wikipedia. I meant it like a guard, who only lets "truth" come-in. I obviously did not mean it the other way round, (as most of you seem to interpreter it). However, I have decided to change my name once (or if) I get unblocked, to another not confusing/misinterpretable user-name (like Loves_VirginiaWoolf1882, or something even more simple).
Anyhow, I'm very sorry for creating a confusion with the "Truth gatekeeper", but my desired meaning for the user-name is being misunderstood.
II). Sorry for the WP: WALLOFTEXT on my appeal, it was due to lack of awareness, and from improving & reusing of text from my previous appeal; (but it was not intentional). Truth gatekeeper (talk) 23:20, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Carried over by me --Deepfriedokra (talk) 00:04, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- {u|Truth gatekeeper}} There is no "confusion" over your username, what you describe as your motivation is precisely what we don't want on Wikipedia. We do not add or delete things on the basis that they conform to our personal definitions of "truth", we do so on the basis of whether they are verifiable and supported by citations from reliable sources. Those things we take as being "facts". Facts are mutable, they can change as more information or evidence becomes available about them. "Truth" is immutable, it is what it is to the beholder.We really don't need or want a "Truth gatekeeper", what we want is an editor who will follow our policies and improve articles by the addition of verifiable information and the removal of unverified information. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:22, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Truth gatekeeper Re-ping. See my last comment. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:23, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- My "I am not here to promote a POV" t-shirt .... --JBL (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- To be fair (and disagreeing with BMK, something i do with reluctance), in the real world the word "truth" is often used in exactly the way that Truth gatekeeper seems to be using it ~ for what BMK is describing as "fact". For that reason i'll reaffirm my support for an unblock, nothing in either one of Tg's replies makes me change it; happy days, LindsayHello 06:15, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- My "I am not here to promote a POV" t-shirt .... --JBL (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Truth gatekeeper Re-ping. See my last comment. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:23, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- {u|Truth gatekeeper}} There is no "confusion" over your username, what you describe as your motivation is precisely what we don't want on Wikipedia. We do not add or delete things on the basis that they conform to our personal definitions of "truth", we do so on the basis of whether they are verifiable and supported by citations from reliable sources. Those things we take as being "facts". Facts are mutable, they can change as more information or evidence becomes available about them. "Truth" is immutable, it is what it is to the beholder.We really don't need or want a "Truth gatekeeper", what we want is an editor who will follow our policies and improve articles by the addition of verifiable information and the removal of unverified information. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:22, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Carried over by me --Deepfriedokra (talk) 00:04, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Truth gatekeeper Reply #2
- Update permalink --Deepfriedokra (talk) 23:13, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Hi everyone (@Deepfriedokra:, @LindsayH:, @HurricaneTracker495:, @RoySmith:, @Ponyo:, @Phil Bridger:, @Beyond My Ken:, @Levivich:, @Starship.paint:, @TimothyBlue: and the rest),
Thank you all for your support and for reviewing my appeal. @Beyond My Ken:, I saw your last comment and yes I understand, and I made those same points on my appeal text (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Unblock_request_for_Truth_gatekeeper). Furthermore, what I meant by "un-referenced" is "unverified" (i.e. follow Wikipedia's policies and improve articles by the addition of verifiable information and the removal of unverified information).
Truth gatekeeper (talk) 09:41, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Carried over by me --Deepfriedokra (talk) 12:47, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Request to close
- Been open more than a week. Last edit was four(?) days ago. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:27, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- {{checkuser needed}} to close this. To note I see consensus for an unblock per WP:ROPE, but as I am not a checkuser I cannot undo checkuser blocks. Therefore, the closing admin for this should be a checkuser, so they can perform the unblock if they see consensus. Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 17:55, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- Check was already completed; see above. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:25, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- {{checkuser needed}} to close this. To note I see consensus for an unblock per WP:ROPE, but as I am not a checkuser I cannot undo checkuser blocks. Therefore, the closing admin for this should be a checkuser, so they can perform the unblock if they see consensus. Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 17:55, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- Just to make sure I'm crystal-clear: Ponyo's findings/this discussion qualify as consulting a checkuser first, and Deepfriedokra you don't object to an unblock but don't feel you can finish the UTRS by unblocking yourself? —valereee (talk) 15:12, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Ponyo: just to confirm, but I agree with Ivanvector. @Valereee: I'm not neutral, really. (I'm for unblocking). It would be better if someone objective who has not dealt with this request close the thread. Thanks for your time. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:07, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- Deepfriedokra, I'm happy to handle as long as no one's going to take me to ANI for unblocking a CU block! :D I'm completely neutral on it. I'll likely make it conditional on a rename per concerns, but TG seems quite open to that. Ponyo's not edited in two days and Doug Weller hasn't expressed any opposition, so I'm just crossing my fingers. —valereee (talk) 17:41, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Doug Weller: Yea or nay? --Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:35, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- Deepfriedokra, ok, with a name change (and the old name made clear on their userpage. Doug Weller talk 19:35, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Doug Weller: Yea or nay? --Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:35, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- Deepfriedokra, I'm happy to handle as long as no one's going to take me to ANI for unblocking a CU block! :D I'm completely neutral on it. I'll likely make it conditional on a rename per concerns, but TG seems quite open to that. Ponyo's not edited in two days and Doug Weller hasn't expressed any opposition, so I'm just crossing my fingers. —valereee (talk) 17:41, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Ponyo: just to confirm, but I agree with Ivanvector. @Valereee: I'm not neutral, really. (I'm for unblocking). It would be better if someone objective who has not dealt with this request close the thread. Thanks for your time. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:07, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
Administrators' newsletter – December 2020
News and updates for administrators from the past month (November 2020).
Interface administrator changes
- There is a request for comment in progress to either remove T3 (duplicated and hardcoded instances) as a speedy deletion criterion or eliminate its seven-day waiting period.
- Voting for proposals in the 2021 Community Wishlist Survey, which determines what software the Wikimedia Foundation's Community Tech team will work on next year, will take place from 8 December through 21 December. In particular, there are sections regarding administrators and anti-harassment.
- Voting in the 2020 Arbitration Committee Elections is open to eligible editors until Monday 23:59, 7 December 2020 UTC. Please review the candidates and, if you wish to do so, submit your choices on the voting page.
- No idea who is responsible for the above, but any way; I have no interest in editing meta.wikimedia.org, but I hope some standards are upheld there? I followed the link to the survey, and I notice banned editor Slowking4 there posting "anti-social users that harm the project, i.e. Fram, and his enablers."[14], and this kind of rather extreme personal attack (on a discussion about how to deal with harassment!) is left alone for 4 days now. If the WMF can't even keep their own pages harassment-free, then perhaps they shouldn't try to impose a UCOC or to deal with supposed harassers based on secret evidence and so on? Fram (talk) 08:31, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- The discussion has now been archived by a WMFer working on the anti-harassment team, without removing or addressing the offending comment. If they can't even patrol and act upon personal attacks and harassment on their own pages about the very subject, they have no business lecturing or supervising other sites. It won't stop them of course, it never does. Fram (talk) 08:10, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Fram: meh I regularly see worse on these boards with zero action including removal, and that's even been from you, so it seems lame to make a big deal over that one comment. Especially since it's on meta, which is a community site, rather than a WMF site, even if it was their survey and so I assume they retained the right to override the meta community if they desired. Nil Einne (talk) 12:28, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- It's a discussion started by WMF, closed by WMF, about actions to be taken by the WMF. Actions specifically directed against harassment, by an organisation which tries to create an image as if they care about harassment (in general, not just against their own) and is giving the strong impression that they will impose such rules and regulations (like the UCOC). I improved my approach after the whole framban thing, even though the WMF way of handling things was disastrous. I'm not trying to make a big deal about this statement directed against me (I've seen worse this week on enwiki), but to highlight the blatant hypocrisy of the WMF acting as our saviours against big bad editors, whenthey can't even keep discussions they started attack-free. It's not even part of a heated discussion, where people cross a line in a back-and-forth (not acceptable, but much more understandable), but an out-of-the-blue comment by an editor banned here (and elsewhere) since many, many years, who feels the need to insert a jab against someone not in the discussion, not even on the same site for that matter. Fram (talk) 13:19, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Fram: meh I regularly see worse on these boards with zero action including removal, and that's even been from you, so it seems lame to make a big deal over that one comment. Especially since it's on meta, which is a community site, rather than a WMF site, even if it was their survey and so I assume they retained the right to override the meta community if they desired. Nil Einne (talk) 12:28, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- The discussion has now been archived by a WMFer working on the anti-harassment team, without removing or addressing the offending comment. If they can't even patrol and act upon personal attacks and harassment on their own pages about the very subject, they have no business lecturing or supervising other sites. It won't stop them of course, it never does. Fram (talk) 08:10, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
From an uninvolved perspective, I see you as a minor martyr in the Big-Brother-action by W?F. Unfortunately, once your username becomes a shortcut for the whole situation, you seem to lose control of it. You are no longer User:Fram, but are now WP:FRAM. Once you become part of the language, part of the culture, it's hard to censor its usage. I don't see it generally as someone poking you, but instead poking the situation; however, in this case they appear to be poking you, but you've become a "public figure" so I guess no one considered it personal. IDK, once a username becomes synonymous with something on WP, like ESjay of RicKK, maybe it's best to drop the moniker alltogether? Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 01:26, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
*For the amusement of my esteemed fellow editors, I will mention that it has come to my attention that I – yes, Yours Truly – was mentioned in a similarly vague-wavish unflattering way ("serial harasser") in the course of a discussion on meta regarding this charming projected Universal Code of Conduct thingamajig which our WMF overlords have been cooking up [15]. Interestingly, the two complainants in that discussion are now indeffed or community banned (on multiple projects, in at least one case) for – wait for it! – outing and harassment! Huh. EEng 18:28, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- Colour me shocked! Fram (talk) 08:52, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- Who woulda thunk it!!! --Deepfriedokra (talk) 11:57, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- Fat people, depending on where they land. Primefac (talk) 13:02, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- Every morning, I wake up and ask myself if I want to go on providing WMF with a living via the fruits of my labor. Every morning, I say, "I'm not doing this for them, but for the Community of volunteers that build and curate this encyclopedia." --Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:13, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- Fat people, depending on where they land. Primefac (talk) 13:02, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- Who woulda thunk it!!! --Deepfriedokra (talk) 11:57, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- Colour me shocked! Fram (talk) 08:52, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Time wounds all heels. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 00:10, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Time flies like an arrow. (Fruit flies like a banana.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:33, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
Spitballing - autoprotect bot
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There were a few of us discussing this the other night on IRC, and I just saw there was a similar proposal at the meta wishlist, so I thought I'd bring it up here. Background: we got hit by a vandal the other night, and for whatever reason we ended up with over 110 edits and reverts in the span of an hour before the page was locked down (and yes, it was reported to RFPP, just not seen quickly enough). While we don't really want vandalism sitting about until an admin can appear (i.e. "I've already reverted them five times, I guess I'll wait for a sixth"), we also don't want to be clogging up edit histories with this level of back-and-forth. Hence, the thought for an autoprotection bot.
Since we have the "Revert" tag now, our thought was that if a page experienced more than 5-10 "Reverted"-tagged edits in a span of say 10-20 minutes, an adminbot automatically protects the page for an hour or two (whether semi- or fully-protected is up for debate, since the warring might be between two AC users). This would give us mere mortals a chance to investigate the issue and hand out any blocks or extended protections as necessary, without the messy result of potentially dozens of edits to clean up.
I know this is a bit more of a BOTREQ, but since the bot would be an AdminBot (and on that subject, I think it should be a dedicated bot for this specific task) it would need to be discussed here first anyway. Primefac (talk) 13:57, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- As an idea I think this is great, but I would like to see some constraints on the admin bot before I would give my support. I would want to see that self reversions be excluded from the count, especially if this applies to more than just mainspace pages. Some questions:
- The reverted tag does not detect all reversions, as there is a limit as to how far the mediawiki software goes back to find out if a edit is a reversion. I think this limit is 10 previous revisions. It is possible, but unlikely due to the 10-20 minute timeline, that some reversions might go untagged if the edit rate is very high. Would the bot also check for reversions which were not detected by the software? If so, when would be the bot be prompted to do this on a page?
- What namespaces will this bot monitor? I would argue that there is a case for all namespaces to be monitored and protectable, but only if self reversions are not included.
- Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 14:29, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- As near as I can tell every vandal edit linked above was tagged, so I'm not too concerned about the system "missing" something; either way they were up to almost 20 reverts (and 40 edits!) in the first ten minutes, so if an edit or two gets skipped it's unlikely to matter. I don't see any reason why it couldn't monitor all namespaces, but obviously article space is the reader-facing space that would need it the most. Also, if someone is self-reverting that quickly (especially in the articles space), they should be CIR- or DE-blocked for being disruptive. Primefac (talk) 14:47, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- As a technical note (I'll probably raise this at BRFA, but in case I forget) maybe it should maybe check for undo/rollback/manual revert rather than reverted: N number of consecutive edits that are reverted once will have N many "Reverted" tags, even though it's just one revert. Alternatively, some logic to count a consecutive set of "reverted" tagged edits as a single revert, to ensure the reverted edits were recent and also check what kind of editor made them. Makes sense to only do it for IPs/non-autoconfirmed and to semi-prot I think, and then perhaps the bot reporting protections in the last day to WP:RFPP in a separate sub-section.For the record, Wikipedia:Bot_requests#Automatically_report_highly_reverted_pages_for_page_protection is also slightly related. Worth adding that 249 usually catches these, and User:DatBot usually reports them to WP:AIV already, but some timezones have more admins active at AIV than others. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:56, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- As near as I can tell every vandal edit linked above was tagged, so I'm not too concerned about the system "missing" something; either way they were up to almost 20 reverts (and 40 edits!) in the first ten minutes, so if an edit or two gets skipped it's unlikely to matter. I don't see any reason why it couldn't monitor all namespaces, but obviously article space is the reader-facing space that would need it the most. Also, if someone is self-reverting that quickly (especially in the articles space), they should be CIR- or DE-blocked for being disruptive. Primefac (talk) 14:47, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- I support this, but I'm concerned that someone who knows what they're doing could game the bot into locking an article with a gross BLP violation visible. I'd like to make sure that if the bot is going to protect a page, it first reverts to the latest non-reverted revision. It might also be useful if the bot would list any pages it protects this way in a new subsection at RFPP so that there's a central place for admins to review. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:21, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Pretty sure if we've got a bot locking pages, it'll be posting it somewhere for review. I do also see the potential for gaming
, and that's a pretty good solution.but if it's being reviewed faster due to a post from the bot, it will likely be fixed faster (WRONGVERSION and all that). Primefac (talk) 15:24, 1 December 2020 (UTC) struck and added to following PR's comment below 15:34, 1 December 2020 (UTC) it first reverts to the latest non-reverted revision
What's the best way to determine that, though? See [16] for example. The first set of reverted edits aren't actually tagged. One could assume the editor with rollback has reverted correctly and that revision can be trusted, but perhaps they haven't reverted far back enough, so someone else comes along and reverts further. How would the bot know which one to go with? Also a tricky assumption to just go for the earliest revision before that single editor edited, in case it's a case of multiple IPs/accounts causing issues. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 15:29, 1 December 2020 (UTC)- And we need to consider the following scenario: a user prepares, in advance, 3 different accounts. Account #1 inserts vandalism or BLP violation. Accounts #2 and #3 immediately edit war over a different part of the page. The bot kicks in. Yes, a simple CheckUser would expose this, but it probably wouldn't be done immediately. 147.161.14.35 (talk) 16:38, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- (non-admin)
but I'm concerned that someone who knows what they're doing could game the bot into locking an article with a gross BLP violation visible
couldn't this be solved quite easily by just having the bot use either extened-confirmed or semi protection? Usually these kind of vandalism wars are done by either IP's or new users Asartea Talk Contributions 17:31, 1 December 2020 (UTC)- (responding to all the points above) I interpreted the proposal as intended to address this problem: an article is generally stable with incremental edits when Editor A comes and makes a bad edit (in good faith, vandalism, BLP vio, just debatable, whatever) and is reverted by Editor B; instead of WP:BRD discussion Editor A hammers the undo button, Editor C reverts again, Editor A restores, etcetera. Yes, reverting to the most recent non-reverted revision is a weak solution, but it would work in this scenario (which in my experience is the vast majority of simple RFPP requests) and it's better than nothing in any more complicated instance anyway. There will always be very dedicated POV pushers and other disruptive editors, we will never program an automatic solution to that problem, and we should stop throwing out good proposals because they don't solve those very complicated issues. For this run-of-the-mill edit warring (which is a very widespread problem but tends to be low-impact) this is a good solution. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:50, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Also, just a thought about that phenomenon: when your edit is reverted, you get a notification that reads "Your edit on [page] was reverted." When you click on the notification, you're taken to a diff of the reversion, which displays the undo button right at the top of the page; if you have rollback there's a second option for reverting, and if you use Twinkle there are three more revert buttons. But there is no "discuss" link anywhere on that page, which perhaps could take you to the talk page editing a new section titled "revert of revision [xxxxxxxxx]" or something. Maybe we should address that. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:57, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- The issue is, I think, that it is quite hard for the bot to determine what revision to revert to. In your case, assuming everything is tagged and whatnot and only includes one account reverting it may be simple, but there are still various other cases that can happen (such as the cases above) and the bot needs to know either what to do in them, or at least know not to do anything (which is somewhat a corollary of the first). This distinction seems quite hard to technically make, and could very easily false positive in restoring a bad revision which needs to be cleaned up by hand anyway. So I think it's a lot of effort for what is probably going to fail much of the time anyway. imo it's better for such a bot to just protect, then let the reverter do a final cleanup edit by hand. Since there's reverting going on most likely there's human eyes on it anyway, so I don't think the bot should second guess them. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:58, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- See, I think you're overthinking it. It's obviously not going to be perfect, but if the trigger (as I understood the proposal) is for some number of revert-tagged revisions, the bot simply walks back from the current revision when it arrives to the next one that isn't flagged as a revert, restores that one, and protects the page. It doesn't need to review that revision or do any thinking at all to determine if it should ignore that revision and keep walking back. All that is is the revision prior to the chain of events that triggered the bot in the first place. If the bot protects that revision it's at least reasonably predictable that it will be a "safe" revision, whereas if the bot just protects on arrival the odds are close to 50/50 (and weighted in favour of the editor who clicks the revert button fastest) that the protected version will be harmful. If the bot is just going to blindly protect then I'm against the proposal; in that case I'd rather the bot just detect revert warring and report it for admin attention. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:10, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Hmm. See, for example, link I sent originally, [17], for some reason (I don't know why) the original edits Materialscientist reverted didn't get the "Reverted" tag (even though RB was used). If I understand you right, and it walks down the tree and picks up the first one which isn't "Reverted" at some point when this was going on, the first revision meeting that criteria would be "15:00, 1 December 2020 Metaveroo", which is exactly the revision which shouldn't be restored? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:16, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Personally, I think everyone's overthinking it. Not many people watch RFPP, but loads of people (as evidenced by this discussion) watch AN, and there are dozens of folks on IRC that have custom notifications that trigger based on specific bots, users, and/or filters (within five minutes of the IRC crew finding out about Fishburne's page, everything was locked, blocked, and RD'd). I don't necessarily see the point of this bot to hide the vandalism itself, but to stop the vandalism. If the WRONGVERSION is on the page for five minutes until someone at AN/IRC/RC sees the edit and reverts, that's not the end of the world (even if it is something like one particular LTA who likes to call famous men paedophiles). there are OS-able edits that are on pages for hours (if not days) at a time, so this idea that a few extra minutes of vandalism is a tragedy seems somewhat silly (to me).
- Now don't get me wrong, I have no issue with wanting to make a bot that can revert to the (hopefully) last-good version of the page (ideally pre-vandalism), but at the very least I would think that such a bot protecting the page to prevent similar 100-edit-vandlism-sprees from happening would be a good thing (and, as evidenced by this discussion, finding that last-good edit can be problematic). Primefac (talk) 18:35, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Hmm. See, for example, link I sent originally, [17], for some reason (I don't know why) the original edits Materialscientist reverted didn't get the "Reverted" tag (even though RB was used). If I understand you right, and it walks down the tree and picks up the first one which isn't "Reverted" at some point when this was going on, the first revision meeting that criteria would be "15:00, 1 December 2020 Metaveroo", which is exactly the revision which shouldn't be restored? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:16, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- See, I think you're overthinking it. It's obviously not going to be perfect, but if the trigger (as I understood the proposal) is for some number of revert-tagged revisions, the bot simply walks back from the current revision when it arrives to the next one that isn't flagged as a revert, restores that one, and protects the page. It doesn't need to review that revision or do any thinking at all to determine if it should ignore that revision and keep walking back. All that is is the revision prior to the chain of events that triggered the bot in the first place. If the bot protects that revision it's at least reasonably predictable that it will be a "safe" revision, whereas if the bot just protects on arrival the odds are close to 50/50 (and weighted in favour of the editor who clicks the revert button fastest) that the protected version will be harmful. If the bot is just going to blindly protect then I'm against the proposal; in that case I'd rather the bot just detect revert warring and report it for admin attention. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:10, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- (responding to all the points above) I interpreted the proposal as intended to address this problem: an article is generally stable with incremental edits when Editor A comes and makes a bad edit (in good faith, vandalism, BLP vio, just debatable, whatever) and is reverted by Editor B; instead of WP:BRD discussion Editor A hammers the undo button, Editor C reverts again, Editor A restores, etcetera. Yes, reverting to the most recent non-reverted revision is a weak solution, but it would work in this scenario (which in my experience is the vast majority of simple RFPP requests) and it's better than nothing in any more complicated instance anyway. There will always be very dedicated POV pushers and other disruptive editors, we will never program an automatic solution to that problem, and we should stop throwing out good proposals because they don't solve those very complicated issues. For this run-of-the-mill edit warring (which is a very widespread problem but tends to be low-impact) this is a good solution. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:50, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Pretty sure if we've got a bot locking pages, it'll be posting it somewhere for review. I do also see the potential for gaming
- I'd certainly back the listed articles being on RFPP - I wouldn't want it on a dedicated page, for example. I'm sure the normal process will bring it up, but if this is trialled, could we get that dropped on AN as well, so those of us not normally deep in the bot creation could see how it's going? Especially since people reviewing the bot's actions normally will be mostly standard RFPP admins, not bot-focused admins? In terms of the general concept - I'd say I'm very cautiously interested, but would need good answers for all of the issues and cases above. An edge case where it doesn't trigger is fine, but false positives could be really problematic. Nosebagbear (talk) 16:41, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Interesting idea worth pursuing. I share the "gaming" concerns (protection-on-demand-via-bot) but I think countermeasures could be developed to reduce that concern. Maybe start with a trial period with the bot posting to RFPP instead of protecting. I'd be curious to see how often the bot was triggered and in what circumstances. Levivich harass/hound 16:54, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- From a "gaming" perspective, I don't think it would work too well. The bot would lock down the page, make one (or more) notification(s) to highly-trafficked pages (and likely trigger various notifications at places like IRC or even the OS queue at OTRS), and the vandalism reverted (I would guess) within 10 minutes. The protection would also likely be short-term, maybe an hour or two, and could be extended if necessary (for actual gaming or repeat offences) or allowed to lapse once the relevant parties are blocked. Primefac (talk) 18:39, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Interesting idea. I'd also cautiously support - maybe throw together a proof-of-concept that just posts "here's a page where I detected edit-warring and here's what I would have done" to a userspace page so that we can start hashing out the detection and WRONGVERSION issues. GeneralNotability (talk) 16:55, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Sounds potentially promising for semiprotection in response to vandalism or other obvious disruption. Maybe it only protects if X edits by new/unregistered users are reverted by at least 2 experienced editors in a certain period of time (to stop one person from gaming it). Applying full protection sounds a lot more dangerous. I can just see one autoconfirmed user removing a BLP violation, another autoconfirmed user reverting them, and the page ends up fully protected with the BLP violation on it. Getting the bot to revert to a "stable" revision wouldn't necessarily help with this. Hut 8.5 18:14, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- The Data, with > 5 reverts since midnight earlier today, for something to look at. Obviously would be tighter than 5 reverts in a day for a bot, but seems there's no ongoing edit wars of >5 reverts (with the exception of Liga MX Femenil, I guess). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:14, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Some onwiki list following the same logic at User:ProcBot/EW. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:52, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- One thing to keep in mind is the principal that bots are just alt-accounts of their operator, so the admin running such a bot would need to be personally responsible for all the protections that they apply to ensure they are aligned with the protection policy. That being said, protection vs blocking is meant to be nuanced and a page should not be protected for example if 2 users are in a revert cycle with eachother - likely those users should be blocked. I'd like to hear from whatever admin would want to take ownership of this situation and hear what parameters they are thinking about using for their automated actions. Also keep in mind that bots should never be relied upon to make a future edit or action - so if this is the type of situation that would be better handled with the edit filter, that is worth exploring as well. — xaosflux Talk 19:33, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Xaosflux: are edit filters actually able to deal with this, beyond what 249 can do? Not sure if it's beans-y to say, but given that they can't see context or change tags, the method they deal with it is a bit easy to beat, plus they can only target the vandal. the bots can instead target the rollbacker, which seems better since the person reverting won't actively be trying to take steps to avoid being tagged, so they'll flag pretty much every case I'd think? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:14, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- @ProcrastinatingReader: right, EF can't "see tags" on an in-process edit, it's a bit of a chicken/egg problem but has been requested at phab:T206490. — xaosflux Talk 23:24, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Xaosflux: are edit filters actually able to deal with this, beyond what 249 can do? Not sure if it's beans-y to say, but given that they can't see context or change tags, the method they deal with it is a bit easy to beat, plus they can only target the vandal. the bots can instead target the rollbacker, which seems better since the person reverting won't actively be trying to take steps to avoid being tagged, so they'll flag pretty much every case I'd think? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:14, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm cautiously optimistic about the bot, but share xaosflux's concerns. It might be better to set up an edit filter instead. I remember seeing a "non-autoconfirmed user rapidly reverting edits" tag which if defined by an edit filter would probably be a good place to start. Part of the problem too is that a number of admins who frequent RFPP (including me) haven't been very active these last few weeks so things are slower than usual. But if this gets off the ground, I'd like the bot to make reports at RFPP rather than a dedicated page. — Wug·a·po·des 23:04, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Re: a dedicated page: people keep saying that, but when I made the post I had no thoughts that it would post on a new board, and I don't think it should be on its own page. Primefac (talk) 23:08, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Primefac: "why not both?" ala WP:AIV/TB2 on WP:AIV....? — xaosflux Talk 23:29, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Sure, I can think of a half-dozen good places to post, which is why I've been somewhat confused as to why people seem to assume we'd be starting a new board for it. Primefac (talk) 23:32, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Primefac: Sorry if this has already been thought of, but should there be a specified limit on the rate at which pages are locked? Like X-amount of pages per hour, removing the potential for the bot to be gamed into spamming whichever board it populates. The limit could be based on the number of requests received during busy times at RFPP, thereby only functioning as a safeguard rather than throttling the bot. Regards, Zindor (talk) 20:03, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- Actually, ignore that. I can see now that would create a way to completely stop the bot working. Perhaps it could be throttled over a certain rate. Zindor (talk) 20:10, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- Sure, I can think of a half-dozen good places to post, which is why I've been somewhat confused as to why people seem to assume we'd be starting a new board for it. Primefac (talk) 23:32, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Primefac: "why not both?" ala WP:AIV/TB2 on WP:AIV....? — xaosflux Talk 23:29, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Re: a dedicated page: people keep saying that, but when I made the post I had no thoughts that it would post on a new board, and I don't think it should be on its own page. Primefac (talk) 23:08, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Those who can see private filters may want to look at filter 1102 (hist · log) ("Rapid disruption"). It's loosely related to what's being proposed here, and I plan on proposing that it be set to disallow once I finish fiddling with the parameters. I'd rather not say exactly how it works, per the concern raised by Ivanvector; someone might try to game it into locking in the WP:WRONGVERSION. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 02:11, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- Suffusion of Yellow, this is a work of art. – bradv🍁 18:21, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- A bot/edit filter for this is a good idea. I thought having a user trigger the protection manually (i.e. making some users able to protect the page for a limited period of time) might also be worth discussing, so I opened WP:VPIL#Unbundling for the millionth time. (I'm told there was a recent proposal along the same lines, but I haven't been able to find it; would be happy to close my discussion and bring it up in a while if that proposal was recent enough.) Enterprisey (talk!) 10:08, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- Enterprisey, I like that idea a lot. But does it need a user group? It complements the policy that edit warring to revert actual vandalism is a 3RR exemption. Using it to trump in an edit war would be...well, edit-warring. —valereee (talk) 11:35, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- Wouldn't a better solution be to appoint a few more admins? Aside from protection requests, actual new admins would also be able to block vandals, delete attack pages and much more. ϢereSpielChequers 17:10, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- WereSpielChequers, a few more admins wouldn't likely have prevented the problem that opened this thread. Giving many editors a tool likely would have, if even one of the multiple editors whose time was wasted during that had had such a tool. —valereee (talk) 19:20, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
Requesting RfC be re-opened
An RfC recently asked how to summarize a section at People's Mujahedin of Iran. Stefka Bulgaria (SB) and I (VR) offered competing versions. @Chetsford: closed as consensus for SB's version, but graciously encouraged me to seek review here; I'm asking the RfC be re-opened.
- The RfC was closed Nov 29. Yet there was active discussion on Nov 27-28 on whether the proposals violated WP:DUE([18][19]) or MOS:WEASEL ([20]). But wikipedia has no WP:DEADLINE.
- Secondly, the SB proposal mass removes longstanding content. Major divergences from the status quo require a strong consensus (as pointed out by El_C). Although the RfC was closed as "seven editors support the summary proposal while three are opposed", I count 10 supports for SB and 7 for VR. The closer felt the opposition to SB's version was ambiguous; I disagree and have provided the exact comments (see below "Vote counts"). Given this, the policy considerations below and closer finding both sides' arguments "equally compelling", the result leans to "no consensus". Re-opening the RfC might change that. Also, there is recent indication that RfCs on that page are voted on without being read, so result should be based on policy not votes.
- Lastly, there were serious policy issues with SB proposal that no one responded to. This version's weasel wording ("various sources...while other sources...") implies a WP:FALSEBALANCE. Academic sources overwhelming say that MEK is a cult (list of sources provided here and here). Even SB acknowledged that no source actually dismisses the cult claims. Yet SB's version balances the opinion of peer-reviewed books and journal articles against those in newspaper op-eds. The argument that high-quality RS can't be counterbalanced with low quality ones was made repeatedly ([21][22]) but never got a response.
- It was pointed out (but never responded to) that SB's version inaccurately implies that MEK barring children from a military camp was the only or main reason for the cult designation, but the sources instead give different, multiple reasons for the cult designation. This is worded as a strawman and misrepresents what one of the sources SB cited says (see below "What the BBC source says").
Vote counts
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Stefka Bulgaria's proposal was supported by MA Javadi, Idealigic, Adoring nanny, Nika2020, Bahar1397, Alex-h, Ypatch, Barca and HistoryofIran (only said "Yes per Stefka.")
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What the BBC source says
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SB's version says
The source also mentions that "no children rule" as being only one of many reasons (mandatory divorce, members not allowed to leave) for MEK's cultishness. |
VR talk 15:51, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- The RfC was opened on 2 October 2020, and there had been absence of new participation towards the time Chetsford closed it. As Chetsford explained to VR, the RfC process
"is a finite discursive arena designed to achieve a specific purpose and not an infinite chat room for open-ended dialog."
Also involved editor Mhhossein requested for the RfC to be closed by an experienced admin, and that's what happened here. After the close, VR was advised to continue discussion on either the article Talk page or personal Talk pages, but both Mhhossein and VR have a tendency to instead complain each time a RfC in this article doesn't close in their favor, making it exhausting for everyone involved. The RfC was opened for two months, and was closed by an experienced admin who gave a thorough and policy-based rational for their close. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 16:57, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- That RFC ran for way too long. VR constantly commented on votes that didn't support his proposal, so when he says "there was active discussion", that's basically him disagreeing with opposite votes. Secondly, the consensus was not to mass remove longstanding content, but to condense a lot of POV. Chestford's vote count was accurate and his closing remarks carefully followed guidelines. Stefka's proposal was more neutral, that's why it won consensus. Lastly, there weren't any "serious policy issues with Stefka's proposal that no one responded to." VR and Mhhossein have been arguing WP:FALSEBALANCE to keep in the article multiple quotes repeating "Democratic Iranian opposition political party = cult" while Mhhossein is removing multiple sources about a misinformation campaign that the Iran’s theocratic regim is running to characterize this political party a cult. Alex-h (talk) 18:09, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Endorse. Clearly the correct close.—S Marshall T/C 00:58, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- The closer said he has counted the votes. There are 9 supports and 7 opposes which use policies in their comments. Moreover, this page is under CONSENSUS REQUIRED restriction, and the admin who himself has proposed Wikipedia:Consensus required and has the most experience regarding page said earlier this restriction should be taken into account, given the fact that "key longstanding text" is condensed by ~60%. Such a mass change requires a strong consensus. Not to mention that VR has raised quite fair concerns which are not responded to. --Mhhossein talk 18:09, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- Actually, this is what the closing admin said in their closing comment:
"By head counting, seven editors support the summary proposal while three are opposed. Looking more closely at the arguments there was an unambiguous consensus that the text in question needs to be shortened, which is consistent with past discussions. Insofar as to whether or not the proposed alternative text should be the text used to shorten the article, "yes" !votes argued the current text was WP:UNDUE and the proposal accurately and duely represented all content in a more succinct and readable form. The "no" !votes stated that the sources used to support the current weighting of perspectives were not entirely drawn from WP:RS and that the proposed alternative text was, therefore, not DUE. The "no" !votes also stated that, while "cult" was a contentious label, there was an abundance of RS that used this term to refer to the Mujahedin. In rebuttal, "yes" !voters said that the word "cult" remained in the article but was reduced in redundancy by the proposal which was not inconsistent with the closing decision in a previous RfC on this topic, or the policy aspect of the objection raised by the "no" !votes. Arguments advanced by both "yes" and "no" editors were equally compelling and virtually every comment cited a relevant policy and made a logical argument as to why policy supported their position. In these cases, our SOP (as described in WP:NHC) requires the closer "to close by judging which view has the predominant number of responsible Wikipedians supporting it". There is a consensus to adopt both the shortening proposal, and the specific text advanced in that proposal by Stefka Bulgaria. An alternate proposal by VK did not achieve a consensus, however, a number of persons who registered a "yes" opinion in that proposal did not express any opinion at all in the original proposal. Given that, it would be okay to open a new and more focused discussion as to whether or not the just-adopted shortened form should be modified in the way suggested by VK, however, keeping this entire RfC open for that reason alone isn't justified and would be unnecessarily confusing."
- And here is the conversation that followed on the closer's talk page after this close. All concerns were addressed (in the RfC process and after by the closing admin). Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 18:39, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- Don't bludgeon the process, please. Thanks.--Mhhossein talk 05:39, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- Mhhossein, I added the closing admins' evaluation (which was needed after your comment). Please do not edit my comments. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 15:23, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- Not sure what the specific disagreement is about as I haven't followed the discussion too closely, but I'd be happy to clarify and add more details to my comments in case the RFC was reopened. Apologies for the ambiguity. Jushyosaha604 (talk) 20:06, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- Neutral as Closer (but no fundamental objection to reopening): I closed the RfC in question and addressed some of the concerns the OP (and others) raised above at my Talk page here. However, as I said there, I think this was an exceptionally close decision. The OP is an outstanding editor who makes strong points in favor of reopening that are based on a GF interpretation of policy. While I don't agree with them and didn't, therefore, believe I could unilaterally reopen the RfC I would have no objection if the community decided to reopen it. Chetsford (talk) 21:11, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- Re-open. Jeez, what a mess. This reminds me of what happened when the last RfC on the cult designation was closed/amended back in September (by L235). Same thing now in November (December)? Nothing learned? Yes, there remains a strong consensus to trim. But my sense is that there's only a strong consensus to trim within reason. In the last RfC, the proposal was to trim 800 words down to 40 words. This RfC proposes to trim it down to 80 words. Now, I realize it's double the word count, but whether one is cutting down the material to 1/20th of its former size or to 1/10th of it — either one of these still amounts to an enormous reduction. So, in either case, I would submit that there would need to be a strong consensus to trim that much sourced content. Whereas, if one were to propose trimming much less, a rough consensus ought to do. Anyway, having a cult designation super-trim RfC every 3 months is too much. Had I still been active as an admin in the article (with thanks to Vanamonde93 for picking up the torch), I probably would have barred this latest RfC from even proceeding (as such). It just isn't a sensible way to engage the problem at hand. It seems like a one-sided approach and a timesink. So, Stefka Bulgaria, maybe it's time someone else had go at it...? Because, coupled with your rather perplexing SPI (to word it gently) involving Mhhossein earlier in the week, it doesn't look like it's heading anywhere good. At any rate, maybe a pre-RfC consultation period wouldn't be the worse idea. Instead of submitting one super-trim RfC after another, why not work together toward a proposal that both sides could find palatable. Or am I just howling at the moon? El_C 09:18, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
Editathon centered on scientist biographies 08.12.2020, 1PM-6PM UTC
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello,
I am an employee of Wikimedia CH. Tomorrow, Tuesday December 8th, we are organizing with the EPFL a small editathon centered on scientist biographies, from 1PM to 6PM UTC. The work list is visible here on meta. We will first be teaching participants contribution and then move on to supporting them as they edit. We have 9 participants registered so far, 8 of which are complete beginners, so there should not be a huge influx of new articles, but there should still be a few. I wondered if anyone with admin rights is interested in checking their work and publishing the articles that respond to Wikipedia's criteria during the workshop. If so, please let me know.--Flor WMCH (talk) 15:58, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Harsher copyvio blocks needed, and request for help at CCI
Given recent incidents involving two users that led to the backlog at Contributor copyright investigations getting much larger and the massive flood of cases we've seen there over the last few months, I'm asking other admins to get much tougher with copyright blocks- they shouldn't be anything other than indefinite, should happen within 3 or so violations, and appealing them should be much, much more difficult.
I also ask the community to help out at CCI- the situation is getting urgent, as the backlog has grown to over 100k articles over the last few months, the overall cases is now close to 200, and only about 3 users other than me are regular editors there. You don't need to be someone deep in the scene to help, I've written a guide (User:Moneytrees/Money's guide to CCI) and have sorted the CCIs by where they copy from (User:Moneytrees/CCI Sort). Since 54 cases have under 100 articles to check, the backlog can be decreased, but a lot more attention will be required. Thanks to those who will help out and feel free at ask any questions. Moneytrees🏝️Talk🌴Help out at CCI! 18:54, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- Moneytrees, I see what you're saying. Copyvio is a habit, likely unrealized as an issue in otherwise well-intentioned editors. If we find it in one article, the likelihood is very high we'll find it in that editor's other contributions because that's how they edit. And it's possible this is the only thing this editor is doing that would draw attention to their edits, so a lot of it could fly under the radar because no one has otherwise any reason to scrutinize those edits. —valereee (talk) 22:14, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
Standard offer unblock request from SithJarJar666
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- SithJarJar666 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
SithJarJar666 is asking to be unblocked. SJJ666 was banned per WP:3X for sock puppetry and logged-out vandalism a while ago. Here's the request:
Greetings, fellow Wikipedians. For the last six months, I have been serving out my ban for sockpuppeting and deceiving the Wikipedia community. In that time, I came to believe that the ban was necessary to get me to change my ways. I understand now that socking is wrong, since it is basically lying to the Wikipedia communtiy and convincing them that I'm something I'm not.
Since then, I have disclosed all my sock accounts, made good edits on the Simple English Wikipedia, and avoided socking since June 2020, which the Checkusers can back me up on. (Full disclosure: I did sometimes log into those sock accounts up until mid-July, but that was solely for checking the watchlists and notifications. All those accounts have had their passwords scrambled, and I couldn't use them again if I wanted to.)
Therefore, I would like to ask that my ban be lifted through community consensus. I ask that the Wikipedia communtiy would welcome me back into their midst. I understand that I will likely never be trustworthy, and that every edit I make will be under extreme scrutiny, but I ask that I would at least be given another shot at the English Wikipedia.
I understand that what I did was wrong. I understand that I initially got block for vandalism, and then I tried to evade my block by socking again... and again... and again. If I am allowed back on enwiki, I will continue the antivandalsim and copyediting work that I did on Simple Wikipedia.
I will never sock again (I would even be willing to be placed on a one-account policy for the next six months, and even after that I would only have a disclosed alt account for test purposes), and I understand that this is my final chance. If I mess up again, it's over for me. Even with these conditions, though, I humbly ask for an unban.
Regards, --sithjarjar (talk | contribs | email) 21:45, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
There's no evidence of any recent sock puppetry. For what it's worth, I think the unblock request is genuine. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 22:55, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- Support with, of course, a restriction to one account going forward. A little over 1000 edits on simple.wiki without significant problems, and apparently no recent socking. SithJarJar may also want to continue helping out the Simple Wikipedia project, even if unblocked here. --Yamla (talk) 23:00, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- Support -- user seems to be acting in good faith; a vandal who created nonsense pages for 1 April, and has been socking as a way to try to contribute after being blocked. To be honest, it seems the initial extended block after 1 April was a bit of a mistake... user creates an unblock request to ask that the block be shortened; user is asked if they do not want to be unblocked, replies "Yes, because I just like to do minor edits", but then a few messages later, asks if there is an administrator who can unblock or reduce their block. If they had simply requested an unblock, this might have been completely avoided in the first place! sam1370 (talk · contribs) 23:33, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- Support per Yamla. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 23:45, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- The basis for the standard offer is that people can change. And one of the recommendations for seeking the standard offer is Banned users seeking a return are well-advised to make significant and useful contributions to other WMF projects prior to requesting a return to English Wikipedia per this 'offer'. Appellant has shown that they can edit constructively and that there is little likelihood of the problem behaviors returning. It is not logical to believe that a user would make the effort to prove themselves on Simple Wikipedia in some mad scheme to vandalize the English Wikipedia. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 12:00, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Support per Yamla. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 00:26, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- So, someone chose the username "SithJarJar666" (this is StarWars-speak for "attention, I am going to fuck around on your wiki"), fucked around on our wiki, made over 150 edits to their talk page trying to get unblocked, socked, and... we want to welcome them back? VxFC should just copy this unblock request, I'm sure we'll welcome them back too. We sure do have weird priorities. If they're doing so great on Simple, why can't they stay on Simple? Just a warning that, if you're unblocked, do not even come close to fucking around again, even once, or I'll reblock in a heartbeat. --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:52, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Careful, Floquenbeam, you're coming awfully close to harsh reality there. Such reasonable, logical, and insightful thinking could well be considered a violation of AGF. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:34, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Floquenbeam: They've addressed all that. Non punitive, and they should be able to contribute constructively moving forward. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 02:45, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- I must have missed the part of WP:ADMIN, WP:UNBLOCK, or WP:SO that suggests threatening users. Levivich harass/hound 06:50, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Support — per of course we give people second chances, WP:UBCHEAP, and the reason I don't want this editor to stay at Simple Wiki (not that I want to take them away from there) is because I'd like them to come make articles like this here. Levivich harass/hound 06:50, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Not to get dragged too far down the rabbit hole when this seems to be a done deal, but... "come make articles like this here"?? They just copy pasted that article from our article here. (Interestingly, the person who actually "made" that article has been blocked too.) --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:11, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
- They did a lot more than "just copy pasted". You might want to strike that allegation. Compare simplewiki July 21 version with enwiki version a/o July 21. Levivich harass/hound 00:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
- Not to get dragged too far down the rabbit hole when this seems to be a done deal, but... "come make articles like this here"?? They just copy pasted that article from our article here. (Interestingly, the person who actually "made" that article has been blocked too.) --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:11, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
- Support per Yamla. Chetsford (talk) 07:25, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Support allow me to talk from personal experience with this user over on simple wiki, where I am a regular editor. This user created a large number of high quality articles, was polite, and an all-round good editor. I can confidently say that the user has matured since their previous behaviour here and can be trusted to be unblocked. I disagree with some above comments that seem to assume bad faith and suggest that a vandal cannot be trusted to contribute again; people grow up and change and I don’t think any suggestions that the user will continue their previous behaviour appears valid, considering the contributions elsewhere since. Blocks are not punitive and certain users should be reminded of that. --IWI (talk) 10:38, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- "Blocks are not punitive" does not address anything I've said. The purpose of the block is to prevent more fucking around on this project. It appears there's a consensus that they can be trusted now, so most people (not me) think it isn't needed as a preventative measure. Fine, consensus is consensus. But lazily mischaracterizing people who do think it is still needed as a preventative measure as supporting a punitive block is wrong. Par for the course at AN/ANI, but wrong. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:20, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
- To answer Floquenbeam's question ~
... we want to welcome them back?
, why, yes, we do. As a community we have determined that we tend to believe people when they tell us something, particularly when the evidence supports it; i support unblock; happy days, LindsayHello 13:15, 10 December 2020 (UTC) - Support People can mature and improve their behavior. This seems to be such a case. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 18:41, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Support per Levivich. I would prefer an unconditional unblock, and I'm weakly opposed to Yamla's proposed account restriction since we can't meaningfully enforce it and their lack of socking makes me willing to WP:AGF that socking is behind us. — Wug·a·po·des 23:57, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) Support. Although I only really interacted with SithJarJar666 on their sock account, Total Eclipse 2017, they appear, as I've gleaned from this months-old thread on my talk page, to be genuinely keen in improving the encyclopedia. The GOCE did not have a problem with Total Eclipse 2017, and some of us were astonished that they were a sock puppet when that account got blocked. If there are concerns about relapsing into unwanted behaviour, perhaps mentorship would be a possible deterrent? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) (🎁 Wishlist! 🎁) 03:10, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
Arbitration motion regarding Horn of Africa
The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:
This case request is provisionally resolved by motion as follows:
- Standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all pages relating to the Horn of Africa (defined as including Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea, Djibouti, and adjoining areas if involved in related disputes) for a trial period of three months and until further decision of this Committee. After March 1, 2021 (or sooner if there is good reason), any editor may ask that this request be reopened for the purpose of evaluating whether the discretionary sanctions have been effective and should be made permanent or if a full case should be accepted to consider different or additional remedies.
For the Arbitration Committee, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 00:05, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard § Arbitration motion regarding Horn of Africa
Internal Error message at Draft:Richard L. Greene
At Draft:Richard L. Greene I was revdel-ing some copyvio content. The page now displays the following error message:
- [X9IyiApAICoAAJ7-xowAAABP] 2020-12-10 14:36:56: Fatal exception of type "TypeError"
It is still possible to see the source code, but saving a dummy edit doesn't resolve anything. I've not encountered this before, and am unsure how to proceed. Help!!!! Nick Moyes (talk) 14:38, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Filed on phab as phab:T269857 Majavah (talk!) 15:11, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Appears to be an issue with the page curation toolbar (which explains why some people below can't reproduce) that only occurs when the author of the first revision of a page has been revdel'd. This should be fixed in MediaWiki 1.36.0-wmf.21 which should be deployed later today if everything goes according to plan. Majavah (talk!) 15:25, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- FWIW, I'm seeing a normal-looking page when I click that draft link. ValarianB (talk) 15:17, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Same. I'm not seeing any error messages and I'm able to access it just fine Merry Christmas! Asartea Talk Contribs! 15:20, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Majavah: Thank you. I replied before seeing your response above, and Primefac's below. I was wondering if it was just a Chrome issue. The page displays ok in Firefox, Internet Explorer, Edge, Opera and in Chrome's incognito mode. (I did purge my cache in a normal and Chrome browser window, which made no difference to the error message being displayed in any new Tab.) Nick Moyes (talk) 15:26, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Not a Chrome issue, shows up for me on FF. I agree it's likely a page curation issue, since I can see diffs etc (which doesn't involve loading the 'bar). Primefac (talk) 15:27, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Just to note I see the issue. I use FF too. Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 15:29, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Firefox here and it shows the error message for me. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:02, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Just to note I see the issue. I use FF too. Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 15:29, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Not a Chrome issue, shows up for me on FF. I agree it's likely a page curation issue, since I can see diffs etc (which doesn't involve loading the 'bar). Primefac (talk) 15:27, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Majavah: Thank you. I replied before seeing your response above, and Primefac's below. I was wondering if it was just a Chrome issue. The page displays ok in Firefox, Internet Explorer, Edge, Opera and in Chrome's incognito mode. (I did purge my cache in a normal and Chrome browser window, which made no difference to the error message being displayed in any new Tab.) Nick Moyes (talk) 15:26, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Same. I'm not seeing any error messages and I'm able to access it just fine Merry Christmas! Asartea Talk Contribs! 15:20, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Unblock request for MindSlayer13
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- MindSlayer13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- UTRS appeal #37905
- Related ANI thread.
MindSlayer13 was blocked most recently on 2020-10-28 By @Johnuniq: for disruption, unsourced edits, and non responsiveness. They made a number of uninsightful unblock requests, and @Voice of Clam: removed talk page access. They have requested unblocking at UTRS.
Starting with this post-I asked for greater detail and user responded thusly-Yes with due respect I know what I have been blocked for. I have neen blocked disruptive editing, not adding sources & failing to respond to other wiki users. I can assure you I will be not doing the things I have done before. Will try to make wiki a better place. I know as users we have responsibilities which I have failed to sometimes. Everyone deserves a chance and I assure I will not be repeating the mistakes. Thanks
As the block was imposed in response to the ANI discussion, I requested a response to that thread. User replied,It was unconstructive as I edited without mentioning source, failed to respond to users when they asked to clarify, in the future I when editing articles I would provide source wherever needed, & have a healthy discussion with the other users what to edit & what not.
So I couldn't respond to those users because I was not active for some reasons, and to be honest I open the notifications very little, that's the reason I was unresponsive, and the thing they were telling about my name is a coincidence, The earlier name was a silly spelling mistake of my real name, later on instead of again putting my real name with correct spelling, I changed the username completely. They mistook it thinking I was changing my identity. Yes I agree I didn't give sources, the edit in Surchandra Singh, and moving Scott Neville to AFC player were actually true and genuine, the other user thought it to be disruptive cause I didn't put any source. The edit I did at Mohun Bagan page, I heard it from various websites so I did it which I shouldn't have as there was already a discussion going on the talk page. I am so sorry for the mistake.
- Presented for your consideration. User does not have talk page access but is prepared to respond via UTRS. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:50, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- I've restored talk page access to allow them to make another unblock request on their talk page. — O Still Small Voice of Clam 18:43, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm inclined to unblock, but VoC had expressed a preference for bringing it here. Certainly this unblock request is better than the prior unblock requests. I believe appellant has learned from this and will edit productively moving forward. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 20:25, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- I may be mistaken but I thought the rule was that if someone was blocked after a community discussion, they could only be unblocked by another discussion. I may be wrong though, and I don't have time at present to look it up so feel free to overrule me. — O Still Small Voice of Clam 21:41, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- This is where ANI can be confusing. Johnuniq blocked as an admin action, not as the result of a consensus building process, though it was headed that way. It was not closed as "block indefinitely. However, under the circumstances, it would be best to seek a consensus to unblock. What confuses me is saying user can post an unblock request on their talk page with this thread open. I'd prefer community input as to unblocking anyway. Reduces the risk of me unblocking in a fit of overexuberance. And having parallel unblock discussions is often nightmarish. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:54, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- I may be mistaken but I thought the rule was that if someone was blocked after a community discussion, they could only be unblocked by another discussion. I may be wrong though, and I don't have time at present to look it up so feel free to overrule me. — O Still Small Voice of Clam 21:41, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- As Deepfriedokra notes above, my block was a simple admin action. The reason an unblock has not yet occurred is that the appeals have not given confidence to the reviewing administrators. It's a bit disappointing that my question at User talk:MindSlayer13#Sources has still not been answered but I have to say that edits like that are standard in fandom topics including sports. I have no objection to an unblock provided MindSlayer13 engages with other editors in the future. English is probably a problem but all that is required is that disputed edits are not repeated without first gaining consensus after discussion on article talk pages. Johnuniq (talk) 22:25, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- This user has been actively socking throughout their unblock request, using both an account User:Hellowiki137 and via logged-out editing. ST47 (talk) 20:01, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- 1)Thanks, @ST47:. Good to know. 2) (from the bottom of my heart, and in my Samuel L. Jackson voice--) W T F ? . I guess I can just go ahead and close this and decline the UTRS. (sotto voce mumblings). 3) You gotta be kiddin; me. It's enough to amke me lose my faith in humanity. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:01, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
Report on Mirrored7
Check Mirrored7's recent contributions. They went on a serial rampage on a bunch of Taylor Swift articles in order to WP:POINT. Their recent edit to the lead of Sweetener (album) was rightly reverted by two other editors (Lydïa (talk · contribs) and Doggy54321 (talk · contribs)), because it was unsourced. So Mirrored7 decided they'd go make disruptive edits on Taylor Swift (to whom they have had shown strong dislike for a reason I don't know) articles with an edit summary of "no sources" whereas in fact they're all perfectly & strongly sourced in the "Music & Lyrics" sections of each of those articles. First and foremost, Mirrored7 didn't cite any source when they added what they added, and that's the fundamental reason why it was removed. Admins, I request you to please look into this. It's tiring honestly. It's impossible to create a discussion with this user because they remove any kind of talk from their user page. They don't wanna learn. They don't seem to understand that you need to source something before you add it to Wikipedia. BawinV (talk)
- Well, first of all it's sourced, sections below. I overreacted a bit, because it seems that there's a bias toward Taylor Swift from this editor and on this site in general. Also, my edits are sourced as needed. I thought by going through the article of album, it would be self-explanatory for certain users, but I guess not. I'm always open for discussion, but how it seems, you are not ready for it. That's also why you need to go to a admin. And can I remember about you distruptive edits on the Ariana Grande you did months ago? Stop trying to make yourself better than I am, because you are clearly NOT. Mirrored7 (talk)
- I'm looking into it. — Wug·a·po·des 00:09, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
- Examples that BawinV gave are just the tip of the iceberg. This user also has an issue with WP:NPOV and WP:EW. For edit warring, they have reverted three times in 24h and then ignored the article (see history of Sweetener (album) from today) multiple times on multiple articles. They have also been blocked for edit warring before. For NPOV, they show a bias towards Ariana Grande, and a hatred towards Taylor Swift. See this edit I made to User talk:Mirrored7 for diffs/examples of bias towards Grande/hatred towards Swift. D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 00:16, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
- @BawinV and Doggy54321: Have there been further problems that you've noticed? I've checked up on Mirrored's recent contributions and nothing since this report strikes me as a problem, but wanted to check with you since you both know the topic area better than I do. — Wug·a·po·des 22:19, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Wugapodes: thanks for checking in! No, there haven’t been any problems since this report. I’m assuming in good faith that this user is trying to change for the better. D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 00:04, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- @BawinV and Doggy54321: Have there been further problems that you've noticed? I've checked up on Mirrored's recent contributions and nothing since this report strikes me as a problem, but wanted to check with you since you both know the topic area better than I do. — Wug·a·po·des 22:19, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Examples that BawinV gave are just the tip of the iceberg. This user also has an issue with WP:NPOV and WP:EW. For edit warring, they have reverted three times in 24h and then ignored the article (see history of Sweetener (album) from today) multiple times on multiple articles. They have also been blocked for edit warring before. For NPOV, they show a bias towards Ariana Grande, and a hatred towards Taylor Swift. See this edit I made to User talk:Mirrored7 for diffs/examples of bias towards Grande/hatred towards Swift. D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 00:16, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm looking into it. — Wug·a·po·des 00:09, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mirrored7: I think you should take another look at the message Doggy54321 left on your talk page a few weeks ago. It's genuinely good advice. It's important that we have editors who have multiple points of view, and your perspective on Taylor Swift and Ariana Grande would be valuable for the encyclopedia. However you clearly are being disruptive and if you do not quickly fix your approach I will block you indefinitely. For the sake of clarity, you need to (1) stop edit warring--just pretend the undo button doesn't exist; (2) discuss things calmly on article talk pages--if you need to give yourself a few hours to cool down, do so, there's no rush (3) don't add material to articles if you cannot provide a reliable source--especially avoid primary sources like song lyrics and certainly do not insert your own analysis. Right now, this is friendly advice because I genuinely believe you have a valuable perspective, but if you continue to disrupt the encyclopedia by personalizing disputes you will be blocked. — Wug·a·po·des 00:43, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'd like to add that Mirrored7 has further exercised disruptive editing on Taylor Swift-related articles, most recently 1989 (Taylor Swift album) and Red (Taylor Swift album). As these two articles are on my watchlist, I doubt if this user also exercises disruptive editing on other articles beyond my scope of interest. The issue is, as I observe, that although this user has received various warnings (see this user's talk page history), it seems that they are not open-minded enough to realize their disruptive behaviors, even went so far as to remove others' well-intended, useful advice, HĐ (talk) 04:29, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
Microsoft Office 2022
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There appears to be some sort of edit warring regarding whether Microsoft Office 2022 should exist or not between a couple of inexperienced users. I've procedurally closed an RfD and reverted to the last version as an article rather than half an infobox and some categories, but it would be useful if someone who is awake could keep an eye on it. If anyone thinks it should be discussed for deletion then nominate it as an article at AfD rather than as a redirect at RfD (per WP:BLAR). Thryduulf (talk) 02:56, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thryduulf, I don't know why you restored that as an article. It's just a duplicate of Microsoft Office 2019. Enjoyer of World(bother...) 03:11, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
Images deletition request
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Can anyone delete these two files as they are clearly copyright violations:
- File:HUMAYUN SAEED.png it was first published here on 20 August 2018 before upload:https://mobile.twitter.com/aryfilmsary/status/1031792388786802688?
- File:FAHAD MUSTAFA.png it was first published on 21 August 2018 here before upload:https://mobile.twitter.com/showbizandnewz/status/1031959478231552004. Thank You192.142.150.23 (talk) 10:15, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
- I've tagged these files with the appropriate speedy deletion tag. Iffy★Chat -- 10:51, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
- Done both deleted. Hut 8.5 16:23, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
My name change
Just to be clear, I am NOT changing my name to avoid scrutiny after being unblocked; I’m just changing it because I like the new one better. Also, I don’t want to have a username that is known as “StarWars-speak for ‘attention, I am going to f*** around on your wiki’”... also, I am a fan of The Matrix, that’s why I chose that name. --sithjarjar (talk | contribs | email) 19:43, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
- Posting this here because I didn’t know where else to put it, I just wanted to say it publicly... --sithjarjar (talk | contribs | email) 19:44, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
- Renamer note: Sorry, Not doneThe chosen username is too similar to an existing username or it used to be username of someone else that got renamed: Neo Is The One. Please choose again. You can ping me. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 20:00, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
Requests for page protection backlog
FWIW, I don't recall having ever seen WP:RfPP this backlogged, with over 40 entries in the queue. Just sayin'... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 00:01, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- I believe we had sixty a couple of weeks ago, but indeed forty requires immediate action (in the meanwhile, reduced to twenty).--Ymblanter (talk) 19:45, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
Notification of proposed community ban against Sievert 81
There is an ongoing discussion regarding the proposed community ban of the user Sievert 81. Please post your thoughts on the proposal at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Proposed community ban of Sievert 81. JJP...MASTER![talk to] JJP... master? 00:40, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
Fifteen Years An Admin
Fifteen years of adminship, and all I got was this lousy edit. Cheers! BD2412 T 01:17, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Congratulations! jp×g 01:34, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Congrats and thanks for your work BD2412 Please double your salary immediately :-) MarnetteD|Talk 02:09, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Double it? I'm going to quintuple it! BD2412 T 02:13, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Don't be greedy. That's grossly excessive, and never mind that you can't set your own salary (this is Wikipedia, not the U.S. Congress). Granting a more reasonable 50% increase, and adjusting for 33% U.S. inflation (since the servers are in the U.S.), I think a fair calculation would be 0 x 1.33 x 1.5 = 0, with further salary review every five years. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:56, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Just for us newcomers, (2012 what a greenie) and for laughs, what were the admin requirements back in the day? Simon Adler (talk) 04:20, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- A heartbeat. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:28, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- (Just a joke, congratulations! Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:28, 12 December 2020 (UTC))
- LOL! I echo BMK's congrats. It looks like you had a record number of supports at the time. The figure still looks healthy in 2020. Respect that you still have the RfA on your userpage. I wonder how many of those original voters are still with us? Simon Adler (talk) 04:32, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Just for us newcomers, (2012 what a greenie) and for laughs, what were the admin requirements back in the day? Simon Adler (talk) 04:20, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Don't be greedy. That's grossly excessive, and never mind that you can't set your own salary (this is Wikipedia, not the U.S. Congress). Granting a more reasonable 50% increase, and adjusting for 33% U.S. inflation (since the servers are in the U.S.), I think a fair calculation would be 0 x 1.33 x 1.5 = 0, with further salary review every five years. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:56, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Double it? I'm going to quintuple it! BD2412 T 02:13, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Congrats and thanks for your work BD2412 Please double your salary immediately :-) MarnetteD|Talk 02:09, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thought this was about a possible film sequel. Congrats! Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 10:32, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Film sequel? I assumed it was going to be Out of RfAica. Nick Moyes (talk) 12:01, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Don't lie, BD2412--I bet you got tons of abuse since then also. WP:HR considers that as fringe and knocks off 5% of your pay accordingly. DMacks (talk) 10:53, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Congratulations. And hey look you got an congratulation! Merry Christmas! Asartea Talk Contribs! 16:03, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Oh you kids. :) Anyway, congrats from one of your original supporters (no. 29, I see). With your fifteen-year anniversary you are now up to one day of vacation per year and relaxed telecommuting rules. Hey, at least we don't have to Zoom into cabal meetings yet. Antandrus (talk) 16:50, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- I've got you beat by a couple of months. I'm still waiting for somebody to give me my key to the men's room. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:19, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- That's a long time to hold it in! Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:40, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for your work. Thanks RoySmith as well.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:43, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- 2020 was my 15th year, as well! I want cake! El_C 09:50, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- El C, here you go. And congratulations on your 15th anniversary! Merry Christmas! Asartea Talk Contribs! 10:17, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
Targetted off-wiki brigading
Saw a large campaign on reddit to brigade and manipulate pages/voting in the India-Pakistan article space (under WP:ARBIPA sanctions) by Pakistani POVPUSHers (1, 2). They are looking to target articles by first creating legitimate appearing/"benign" accounts then getting to their real work, and have created private subreddits (1 (CTR=Correct The Record), 2) to discuss which specific articles to target. Payments/rewards such as PS5s and computer devices are being offered as well for successful brigading or targeting of articles. Should be on the lookout for such accounts (old/new) and edits in the coming days and months. Gotitbro (talk) 09:54, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Bradv, Valereee, Shirt58, NinjaRobotPirate and Primefac please see above. 2402:3A80:112B:1E91:C1DC:8842:F691:28E7 (talk) 11:11, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- El C, L235 and Deepfriedokra 42.110.223.239 (talk) 11:44, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how "removeddit" works (presumably it scrapes the vote count/etc at the time of a link's removal from Reddit) -- that link shows the submission as having a score of 1 (on Reddit one point is automatically given to a submission by the person who posts it) -- that is to say, if I'm interpreting this correctly, it was deleted from the subreddit without a single person having upvoted it. However, the second link has about 250 upvotes, which may be of more concern (plus it links to this Poast, which seeks to organize people with the opposite POV and has ~150 upvotes). These are probably the ones we should be keeping an eye on. jp×g 14:28, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- El C, L235 and Deepfriedokra 42.110.223.239 (talk) 11:44, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
Backlog at WP:PERM/PCR
Please have a look to the backlog of requests at WP:PERM/PCR. Thanks 42.110.223.239 (talk) 11:34, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Anarchyte, AmandaNP, Swarm, QEDK, and ToBeFree: as they have handled requests there earlier. 42.110.223.239 (talk) 11:34, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
Restore Varidesk during deletion review
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It may be prudent to restore Varidesk during its deletion review. --Jax 0677 (talk) 18:59, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- I did that, but having looked at it I've deleted it again, because it looks far too close to a copyvio to me. Quite apart from things like "Vari manufactures 300 products that assemble within minutes and are perfectly suited for flexible workspaces.", "A lower price point makes this Electric Standing Desk a great option for work-from-home" and "The VariDesk Pro Plus™ desktop converter comes fully assembled out of the box", an amount of the text appears to have been paraphrased from the company's own website (and Amazon). Incidentally, there was a G11 speedy-deletion tag applied before it was deleted. Black Kite (talk) 19:10, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Also, for the record - there is no requirement that a speedy deletion tag be applied before an admin speedies a page - the admin may speedy on their own initiative without the tag. GeneralNotability (talk) 19:35, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
TPA
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
remove tpa from User talk:BAN BREXIT --TheImaCow (talk) 19:25, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Done by User:GeneralNotability, and I've semi'd it as well in case they are considering coming back under another guise. Black Kite (talk) 19:33, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
The most important correction
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Mirza qadiyani is not a calipha of islam. You may have to research more about this topic.almost muslim countries are recognize qadiyani as a non-muslim so you must be change it. Thank you for read my msg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.178.143.107 (talk) 19:45, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- I know that this is closed, but just for general awareness - there appears to be some sort of off-wiki campaign regarding the topic of the Caliphate and whether or not this person was a genuine Caliph. There were a number of disruptive edits at RfPP, this comment here, and a veritable flood of tickets at OTRS (I haven't checked the articles in question, but I'm sure they've got their share of problems too). GeneralNotability (talk) 20:18, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Might be time to up the protection to ECP soon, since AC-accounts are now appearing on the relevant page too, and I assume this is only going to get worse for the time being. Blablubbs|talk 20:29, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Already done. Primefac (talk) 20:30, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks. Some extra eyes on related pages, i.e. everyone listed here and Caliphate, might also be useful. Blablubbs|talk 20:36, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- It looks like this is on google – they display his name when people search for "who is the present caliph of islam". Currently getting attention on Twitter and video platforms. Blablubbs|talk 20:45, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Stupid wrong answers on Google searches seem more common now? XKCD Twitter had some the other week. As noted, that really isn't Wikipedia's problem. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:50, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Google's algorithms are so flawed that they show the caliph of the Amadiyya sect as the caliph of all of Islam. The Amadiyya are only about 1% of Muslims and are widely seen as heretical. Google then displays the Wikipedia article, leading true believers to conclude that Wikipedia is responsible for the error. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 22:09, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- See Qadiani for some insight into the anger this stirs up. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 22:18, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Google's algorithms are so flawed that they show the caliph of the Amadiyya sect as the caliph of all of Islam. The Amadiyya are only about 1% of Muslims and are widely seen as heretical. Google then displays the Wikipedia article, leading true believers to conclude that Wikipedia is responsible for the error. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 22:09, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Stupid wrong answers on Google searches seem more common now? XKCD Twitter had some the other week. As noted, that really isn't Wikipedia's problem. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:50, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- It looks like this is on google – they display his name when people search for "who is the present caliph of islam". Currently getting attention on Twitter and video platforms. Blablubbs|talk 20:45, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks. Some extra eyes on related pages, i.e. everyone listed here and Caliphate, might also be useful. Blablubbs|talk 20:36, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Already done. Primefac (talk) 20:30, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Might be time to up the protection to ECP soon, since AC-accounts are now appearing on the relevant page too, and I assume this is only going to get worse for the time being. Blablubbs|talk 20:29, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
Wrong information being displayed
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If you search on wikipedia about the present caliph of Islam, it give the answer Mirza Masroor , which is totally false. It will be highly appreciated if correct research is done before adding in information, do your research and correct it ASAP. Thank You so much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.182.209.154 (talk) 20:27, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
User:Sundayclose: bullying and threats of harassment: request for remedy
User:Sundayclose has been bullying me and has now threatened to harass me on one specific article (Immaculate conception). This is not an isolated incident for this user but is indicative of a general approach to other users on Wikipedia - see, e.g., and .
This began at the article Immaculate Conception when objected to the phrase "France saw" (as in saw an increase in the popularity of this idea), on the grounds that countries cannot see; I reverted, as the phrase seemed to me to reflect common usage. This was followed by an edit war, and I admit to being at fault in allowing myself to be drawn into this. The real problem is not this trivial matter, but the behavioural issue: to quote another editor who complained about a very similar incident, Sundayclose has "a habit of undoing what [they] [dis?]like and carpet bombing the offending user's talk page with a warning." , culminating in .
I will be very happy if I never come across this user again. In order to make this happen, I would like an interaction ban on both of us (neither to edit any page edited by the other), including a joint ban from editing Immaculate Conception.Achar Sva (talk) 11:46, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- I really hoped it wouldn't come to this, but Sundayclose has left multiple users – including me – no choice here. All one needs to do is casually scan the last couple of months of his contributions page to see a user with massive WP:OWN problems. The pattern is immediately evident: he comes across an edit he doesn't agree with, immediately reverts and posts a warning to that user's talk page regardless of whether a warning is appropriate or not. Any further interaction then descends to an argument of "it's your responsibility to get consensus, per BDR"—regardless of which side of the BRD cycle he's on. I've had one interaction with the guy, but got a genuine stink of BRD misuse/filibustering. With his talk page on my watchlist for the past week, I've seen this user come into conflict with no less than six other editors, most of which were removed without response. And his latest interaction with an IP is a textbook example of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT.
- It's clear he is deliberately misinterpreting the content of several policies – pretty much everything linked in WP:5P4 – to suit his own needs as the situation dictates. If successful, this ANI may result in his first block, but I believe the behavioural issues here deserve a fairly lengthy block. User is clearly WP:NOTHERE, is argumentative, hostile and combative for no damn reason, and genuinely needs some time to reflect on how he interacts with other users. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 02:28, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- I would like to offer my two cents to the discussion. Based on the evidence provided by Homeostasis07, I can agree that some of those behavioral problems may need to be looked at. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 07:36, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- I've not followed the links to the interaction or behaviour at the heart of this thread, but I just want to weigh in on Sundayclose, generally. From my experience with them, going back several years, I have to disagree that their contribution can be reduced to WP:NOTHERE. Working on 1960s music articles as I do, I've seen Sdc tirelessly undoing dozens of nuisance edits – say, to Personnel sections at Beatles song articles, which are magnets for users either obsessively changing credits to what they personally hear/think or are otherwise out to be disruptive. Sdc's an absolute godsend on that front, as far as I'm concerned. I've seen them occasionally be a little to quick to revert, yes, but it's easily solved. I'm not out to negate the subject of this complaint (which, as I say, I haven't even looked into) or others' experience (which sounds very different from mine, obviously). But to imply that Sdc offers nothing but negative input – no way, that's absolutely not true. JG66 (talk) 08:04, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
Me getting banned
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Is there any way I can be unbanned from editing Articles? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilovelife68 68 (talk • contribs) 15:24, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
Admin help needed with taxonomy template
Please follow the following link and save the result as is:
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Animal lover 666 (talk • contribs) 23:18, 14 December 2020 (UTC)