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:: For some of the discrepancy see my response to kcmasterpc above. In addition, I didn't count Tranarchist themselves at all, nor the original sock who opened the thread. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 17:32, 4 March 2023 (UTC) |
:: For some of the discrepancy see my response to kcmasterpc above. In addition, I didn't count Tranarchist themselves at all, nor the original sock who opened the thread. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 17:32, 4 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::: Oh, and you have Timothy as a support when he said he was supporting only on the condition that several other problematic editors were banned and oppose otherwise. As that didn't happen and frankly was never a realistic possibility, I counted him as an oppose. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 17:38, 4 March 2023 (UTC) |
::: Oh, and you have Timothy as a support when he said he was supporting only on the condition that several other problematic editors were banned and oppose otherwise. As that didn't happen and frankly was never a realistic possibility, I counted him as an oppose. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 17:38, 4 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::I also want to add some more granularity is called for in regards to calls for the TBAN. Some were explicit they considered the intersection the problem, other comments were ambiguous as to whether they supported the intersectional ban or GENSEX in general, and editors like Snow Rise expressed support for limited sanctions and their position could be characterized more so as opposed to no sanctions rather than wholly supportive of a full GENSEX ban, (@[[User:Snow Rise|Snow Rise]] correct me if I'm wrong in that assesment). So if we split the categories into 1) those who supported a full GENSEX ban and 2) those who opposed it, either calling for no sanctions or limited targeted sanctions, there seems to be a majority considering the GENSEX ban proposed by the sock was overkill. That's also not even considering that some (certainly not all as many were in good faith) of the oppose votes were ''hypocritical'' at best (per my JWeiss11 example). And in terms of arguments raised, every criticism was specifically to [[WP:BLP]] and [[WP:BLPGROUP]]/[[WP:ORG]] (I also want to note that in my previous comments were I said [[WP:BLPGROUP]], [[WP:ORG]]/[[WP:BLPGROUP]] would have been a better characterization) articles, and even more specifically anti-trans ones, with nobody at any point raising a single problematic edit/article outside of that narrow intersection (despite repeated requests to multiple editors that they do so). [[User:TheTranarchist|TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ]] ([[User talk:TheTranarchist|talk]]) 18:05, 4 March 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Endorse close''' per Kcmastrpc. I've made my points elswhere in the thread but repeating them again here. I voted for the TBAN, for full disclosure. Ultimately [[WP:POLL]] applies (and even if it didn't, more users were still in favour of a TBAN than against) - discussion and consensus is what matters. I do believe a consensus developed during this discussion, and I believe CaptainEek adequately explained said consensus [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1120#Advocacy_editing_by_User:TheTranarchist|in the 5th and 6th paragraphs]] of the closing note. — '''[[User:Czello|<i style="color:#8000FF">Czello</i>]]''' 17:36, 4 March 2023 (UTC) |
*'''Endorse close''' per Kcmastrpc. I've made my points elswhere in the thread but repeating them again here. I voted for the TBAN, for full disclosure. Ultimately [[WP:POLL]] applies (and even if it didn't, more users were still in favour of a TBAN than against) - discussion and consensus is what matters. I do believe a consensus developed during this discussion, and I believe CaptainEek adequately explained said consensus [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1120#Advocacy_editing_by_User:TheTranarchist|in the 5th and 6th paragraphs]] of the closing note. — '''[[User:Czello|<i style="color:#8000FF">Czello</i>]]''' 17:36, 4 March 2023 (UTC) |
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*{{peanut}} <small>Now before anything I will point out that I am barely extended-confirmed with very few non-trivial mainspace edits, so I guess you can feel free to disregard my post here. (My edit count and account age are both inflated, not accurate as a judge of my experience.)</small> I must note that the closer's breakdown of notvotes is simply not harmonious with reality. It's probably true that something like 35 users did explicitly support {{tq|some kind of topic ban}}, but it is ''not true'' that only 25 users explicitly opposed it. I don't think it's 35 ([[user:Ppt91|Ppt91]] and [[user:Colin|Colin]] were neutral), but even discarding [[user:Timothy|Timothy]]'s conditional oppose there are at least '''32''' explicit TBAN opposes. To me this number appears incontestable (and I looked through it myself and drew up a table).{{pb}}Consensus is not determined by a simple tally, which is why I was astounded to see the claim that {{tq|the votes in favor outweighed those opposed by a wide margin}} (which, by my reading, is inaccurate), followed by {{tq|The !votes indicated that the community was generally in favor of a topic ban, so I then considered what factors might weigh against a topic ban.}} Clearly, the basic tally highly influenced the closer's view by shifting the burden of proof onto the defense (as it were) instead of the prosecution. In the closer's summary there was not much mention of any arguments in favor of a TBAN, just that {{tq|the community was generally in favor}} of it; there was no discussion of whether that conclusion was warranted by the arguments. '''To make things clear:''' to me, it seems like the only substantive reason presented for a TBAN was the existence of a significant numerical majority favoring that outcome. That significant majority does not appear to exist; therefore, this close was unwarranted. If there were other reasons for a TBAN, I think it would be good for those to be mentioned in more detail somewhere.{{pb}}P.S. One major effect of this close is to send a loud message that newer users are frankly unwelcome in the GENSEX arena. If you make a newbie mistake, you can be sure it will be hauled out at you when the inevitable ANI filing comes, and the hammer will come down. Punishment (don't kid yourselves with the "sanctions should not be punitive" platitude) has replaced correction in this content area. (And, just by the way, I am not even convinced that this TBAN is a bad thing. It might really be helpful. But it feels like part of a larger [[anti-pattern]].) [[User:Shells-shells|Shells-shells]] ([[User talk:Shells-shells|talk]]) 17:43, 4 March 2023 (UTC) |
*{{peanut}} <small>Now before anything I will point out that I am barely extended-confirmed with very few non-trivial mainspace edits, so I guess you can feel free to disregard my post here. (My edit count and account age are both inflated, not accurate as a judge of my experience.)</small> I must note that the closer's breakdown of notvotes is simply not harmonious with reality. It's probably true that something like 35 users did explicitly support {{tq|some kind of topic ban}}, but it is ''not true'' that only 25 users explicitly opposed it. I don't think it's 35 ([[user:Ppt91|Ppt91]] and [[user:Colin|Colin]] were neutral), but even discarding [[user:Timothy|Timothy]]'s conditional oppose there are at least '''32''' explicit TBAN opposes. To me this number appears incontestable (and I looked through it myself and drew up a table).{{pb}}Consensus is not determined by a simple tally, which is why I was astounded to see the claim that {{tq|the votes in favor outweighed those opposed by a wide margin}} (which, by my reading, is inaccurate), followed by {{tq|The !votes indicated that the community was generally in favor of a topic ban, so I then considered what factors might weigh against a topic ban.}} Clearly, the basic tally highly influenced the closer's view by shifting the burden of proof onto the defense (as it were) instead of the prosecution. In the closer's summary there was not much mention of any arguments in favor of a TBAN, just that {{tq|the community was generally in favor}} of it; there was no discussion of whether that conclusion was warranted by the arguments. '''To make things clear:''' to me, it seems like the only substantive reason presented for a TBAN was the existence of a significant numerical majority favoring that outcome. That significant majority does not appear to exist; therefore, this close was unwarranted. If there were other reasons for a TBAN, I think it would be good for those to be mentioned in more detail somewhere.{{pb}}P.S. One major effect of this close is to send a loud message that newer users are frankly unwelcome in the GENSEX arena. If you make a newbie mistake, you can be sure it will be hauled out at you when the inevitable ANI filing comes, and the hammer will come down. Punishment (don't kid yourselves with the "sanctions should not be punitive" platitude) has replaced correction in this content area. (And, just by the way, I am not even convinced that this TBAN is a bad thing. It might really be helpful. But it feels like part of a larger [[anti-pattern]].) [[User:Shells-shells|Shells-shells]] ([[User talk:Shells-shells|talk]]) 17:43, 4 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Threads need closure
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Bludgeoning and edit warring by Newimpartial and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Advocacy editing by User:TheTranarchist would both benefit from a closure, sooner rather than later. We're firmly into "causing unnecessary stress and pain to the subjects, unrepairable harm to relationships, and harm to the community" territory. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:09, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
- I concur. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:34, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
- There are a couple folks on the fence still. Kolya Butternut (talk) 19:18, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
- We don’t stop everything until everybody involved has made up their minds, for very obvious reasons. — Trey Maturin™ 20:37, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
- I agree. Both threads are trainwrecks. One was started by a user who was later blocked as a sockpuppet. Neither thread makes us look good and taken together the effect is compounded. The longer this goes on the worse it gets. It must be horrible for the subjects. Neither of them deserve this ongoing inquisition. I'm pretty sure that anybody with anything to say has already said it. The sooner it ends the better. DanielRigal (talk) 21:06, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
- ArbCom needs to seriously consider reexamining the GENSEX area, given that issues related to it are taking up an ever-increasing percentage of the community's time. This is becoming seriously disruptive. Partofthemachine (talk) 05:11, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
Independently of whether it's time to close the threads, I disagree with the hand-wringing expressed in this thread. It seems that at least one of the subjects has at least appeared to have taken the advice and criticism on board, and something good may come of that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:09, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
- I agree as well. Since there's obviously no consensus in either discussion, they should both be easy to close. Nythar (💬-❄️) 21:12, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
- I also agree that whether the closing admin chooses to issue sanctions in these cases or not, there isn't anything more to be gained from keeping it opened except more and more drama. There don't seem to be any new perspectives or arguments that haven't already been given. The WordsmithTalk to me 01:50, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- As the user who started one of the threads, I also believe it has run it's course and would benefit from being closed, with whatever decision the closing admin takes (As someone who never edits in GENSEX, never interacted with the users in that field, and filed a report purely based on RSN, I never imagined how it would explode with so much bad faith on both sides. I doubt anything productive will come out of keeping it open any longer and disengaged from it myself days ago). Jeppiz (talk) 02:14, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- Shut her down. Everything that needs to be said has been said for both sides. Iamreallygoodatcheckers talk 04:52, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- Having read the NI thread, I feel compelled to note that one of the purposes DS played, which Contentious Topics as it's successor plays, is letting admin make decisions with some degree of finality on behalf of the community. This is why there is a first mover advantage (it's a brightline violation for an admin to overturn a CT imposed sanction) and why appeals require a higher degree of consensus than normal in order to be accepted. This protection goes both ways - it protects someone closing with a warning or no action just as much as someone closing with a sanction. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:31, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- Barkeep49 sorry to be such a non-admin noob, but can you bring that down to a fourth-grade level so I can grok? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:35, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry I wasn't clear having prioritized the why/how over what I was saying. One of the ideas behind CT is to give admin the push to act before a conversation reaches that level of community involvement and once it does the confidence to act in a way that will stick. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:16, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- Barkeep49 sorry to be such a non-admin noob, but can you bring that down to a fourth-grade level so I can grok? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:35, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- Note to closing admin(s): Whatever the end result is, I think it might be a good idea to suggest that for future issues in this topic area it might be a better idea to bring them to WP:AE rather than ANI because they have a more formal structure to better deal with enforcement requests of this type. The WordsmithTalk to me 20:11, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- I would tend to agree that AE is a much better option than ANI. With the type of accusations being wilded against established editors that edit contentious topics like that, it's best for the ultimate decision to be made by non-involved administrators with input from other editors. It would help avoid a sort of mob mentality that can occur, and alleviate concerns that there is a mob attacking someone because of their editorial stances. Iamreallygoodatcheckers talk 04:13, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
- I think the structure and inherent limitations of AE helps in cases like this, more than it avoiding a "mob mentality". A mob can still form at AE, however with statements from editors usually limited to 500 words and 20 diffs, it discourages general back and forth discussion between all of the editors, while focusing it on the back and forth between the editors and admins. That said, AE discussions can still go off-the-rails and become train wrecks, particularly when editorial frustration is built up and accusations (founded or otherwise) of bad faith editing are thrown about. Sideswipe9th (talk) 04:21, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
- Everything you say is true, but what I'm trying to point out is I don't particularly like seeing peoples editing rights being limited because a consensus happens to form during an ANI discussion of editors who may, or may not, have a full understanding of the nuances of the particular situation or even WP behavioral standards. Many people who participate in such ANI discussions probably do a 2-minute skim of the discussion and just !vote with their gut. Whereas, at AE the decision is made by usually experienced admins who can look at the situation for what it is and apply their community-vetted judgement. ANI is liking having a bunch of protesters outside the courthouse decide if someone is guilty vs letting a panel of judges, who actually know what they are doing, determine it. What I've pointed out about ANI process is what I see as a fundamental flaw in WP's version of due process. Sure a mob can form at AE, but the mob isn't going to make the decision of whether someone loses their right to edit or not. Iamreallygoodatcheckers talk 05:04, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
- Admins at AE also may, or may not, have a full understanding of the nuances of the particular situation or even WP behavioral standards. Given the choice, I'd take ANI over AE every time; the common wisdom is that the structure of AE lends to making better decisions, but I remain unconvinced. The upshot is AE threads are usually shorter, so less costly. I think the accuracy rate is about the same, but I guess AE is cheaper. In any event, my thanks to whomever steps up to close these ANI threads, however and whenever they're closed. Levivich (talk) 20:13, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
- Both noticeboards have their positives and negatives for this sort of issue.
- ANI is less structured, decisions on how to sanction an editor or editors are made by community consensus. It's easier for knowledgeable editors in the relevant topics or articles to contribute as to where they see the problem is, as it can often be different from a discussion's OP. But the more free-form nature of the discussion does make it more likely to have mammoth length threads that can devolve into public slinging matches.
- AE is more structured, decisions on how to sanction are largely made by a consensus of the admins contributing. But if you can't fit the nature of the complaint, or a defence to a complaint into the word and diff limits, which can easily happen on more complex cases, it can be difficult to convince the admin panel. The biggest problem with AE (and to a lesser extend ANI), at least to me, is its inability to handle WP:CPUSH. Recognising CPUSHing, particularly when it involves more subtle subversions of NPOV and RS, requires editors to have familiarity with the underlying source material to recognise where content is being added that is not complaint with policy or sourcing. Unfortunately by the time many admins have the familiarity with the source material to potentially agree with editors who report CPUSH problems, they are often seen as too involved to actually be able to contribute as part of the admin consensus panel. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:16, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
- Admins at AE also may, or may not, have a full understanding of the nuances of the particular situation or even WP behavioral standards. Given the choice, I'd take ANI over AE every time; the common wisdom is that the structure of AE lends to making better decisions, but I remain unconvinced. The upshot is AE threads are usually shorter, so less costly. I think the accuracy rate is about the same, but I guess AE is cheaper. In any event, my thanks to whomever steps up to close these ANI threads, however and whenever they're closed. Levivich (talk) 20:13, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
- Everything you say is true, but what I'm trying to point out is I don't particularly like seeing peoples editing rights being limited because a consensus happens to form during an ANI discussion of editors who may, or may not, have a full understanding of the nuances of the particular situation or even WP behavioral standards. Many people who participate in such ANI discussions probably do a 2-minute skim of the discussion and just !vote with their gut. Whereas, at AE the decision is made by usually experienced admins who can look at the situation for what it is and apply their community-vetted judgement. ANI is liking having a bunch of protesters outside the courthouse decide if someone is guilty vs letting a panel of judges, who actually know what they are doing, determine it. What I've pointed out about ANI process is what I see as a fundamental flaw in WP's version of due process. Sure a mob can form at AE, but the mob isn't going to make the decision of whether someone loses their right to edit or not. Iamreallygoodatcheckers talk 05:04, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
- I think the structure and inherent limitations of AE helps in cases like this, more than it avoiding a "mob mentality". A mob can still form at AE, however with statements from editors usually limited to 500 words and 20 diffs, it discourages general back and forth discussion between all of the editors, while focusing it on the back and forth between the editors and admins. That said, AE discussions can still go off-the-rails and become train wrecks, particularly when editorial frustration is built up and accusations (founded or otherwise) of bad faith editing are thrown about. Sideswipe9th (talk) 04:21, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
- I would tend to agree that AE is a much better option than ANI. With the type of accusations being wilded against established editors that edit contentious topics like that, it's best for the ultimate decision to be made by non-involved administrators with input from other editors. It would help avoid a sort of mob mentality that can occur, and alleviate concerns that there is a mob attacking someone because of their editorial stances. Iamreallygoodatcheckers talk 04:13, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
Is there no admin willing to close?
I know it's a big job (either one), but it's been a week since this plea for closure was posted and the core discussions were growing stale even then. It doesn't seem fair to the two contributors in question to leave them in suspense for so long. —Ganesha811 (talk) 22:34, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- FWIW, I had read through NI's discussion after the original message here was posted. But then I got (in a hatted section) to an editor who has knows their way around ArbCom (and who seems quite passionate but is, to my knowledge, UNINVOVLED) seriously suggesting this might come to the committee. Because there are lots of admins but only 15 arbs (and at the moment less given a few who inactive or inactive in most areas) I decided I would be the wrong closer. So that's why I made my generic note above about. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:16, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- The threads appear to have been closed at this point. I think this section can be closed and archived in light of this. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 15:55, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
Urgent help needed in copyvio maintenance category
There are currently 154 pages in this category, automatically categorized by the {{AfC submission}} template by the cv
switch. I came across the category just now and started to randomly select some articles, and found that about half are cleaned drafts where the reviewing admin didn't set that switch to cv-cleaned
(which moves them to Category:AfC submissions cleaned of copyright violations), while the other half or so still have the copyvio in them - the AfC reviewer did not request redaction. Some copyvios are quite old, and I'll admit that I've left some cleaned drafts behind myself since I didn't know about that switch.
I'm going to start going through each page in that category to check for visible copyright violations, removing and revdeleting them, and properly setting the switch. Ideally that category should not have any members. Any admins familiar with WP:RD1 redaction who would like to help are invited to start on any article still in the category.
-- Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 23:50, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
- At one point I was able to keep that category at 0, but it's a category that almost no one pays any attention to so if I stop patrolling it for a day or two it skyrockets. Honestly, I'm debating changing the category structure so that it dumps it directly into the RD1 request page so that our more regular RD1 patrollers can help out. Primefac (talk) 09:36, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
- I did not realize there was a cv switch that needed to be changed after a revdel. I'll keep that in mind for the future. -- Whpq (talk) 02:17, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
- Some of it could be handled with a pre-loaded AWB run; clear out all the ones that need more work like actual removal of content/revdel requests, then go through and put the cv-c in. Sennecaster (Chat) 18:10, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
Administrators' newsletter – March 2023
News and updates for administrators from the past month (February 2023).
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- Following a request for comment, F10 (useless non-media files) has been deprecated.
- Following a request for comment, the Portal CSD criteria (P1 (portal subject to CSD as an article) and P2 (underpopulated portal)) have been deprecated.
- A request for comment is open to discuss making the closing instructions for the requested moves process a guideline.
- The results of the 2023 Community Wishlist Survey have been posted.
- Remedy 11 ("Request for Comment") of the Conduct in deletion-related editing case has been rescinded.
- The proposed decision for the Armenia-Azerbaijan 3 case is expected 7 March 2023.
- A case related to the Holocaust in Poland is expected to be opened soon.
- The 2023 appointees for the Ombuds commission are AGK, Ameisenigel, Bennylin, Daniuu, Emufarmers, Faendalimas, JJMC89, MdsShakil, Minorax and Renvoy as regular members and Zabe as advisory members.
- Following the 2023 Steward Elections, the following editors have been appointed as stewards: Mykola7, Superpes15, and Xaosflux.
- The Terms of Use update cycle has started, which includes a
[p]roposal for better addressing undisclosed paid editing
. Feedback is being accepted until 24 April 2023.
Wanli and Jianwen Eras
Mass nonsensical reverts without discussion or comment, including removal of improvements and improved formatting, links, etc. and insertion of duplicate sections and assorted nonsense in the middle of edit warring by User:Ylogm. Just get 'em to stop and at least talk and/or force them to sit through a mediation to at least discuss why they prefer the worse wrong version of the page. In particularly, the current "translations" of the Chinese names are wrong and worse formatted and the discussion of the Yongle Emperor's reversion of the Jianwen Era is wrong/worse. Thanks. — LlywelynII 03:03, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
Wanli Era edit history with my comments and requests and Ylogm's ignoring of them.
Jianwen Era edit history with my comments and requests and Ylogm's ignoring of them.
Talk:Jianwen_Era with my request for comments and (so far) Ylogm's ignoring it.
Amid the edit warring, Ylogm has also duplicated the entire content of the page without noticing/caring, in an attempt to avoid having any discussion or bring their revert to my attention. — LlywelynII 03:07, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- @LlywelynII: You are required to notify the user of this report.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:45, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'm looking through Ylogm's edit history and seeing a lot of seemingly pointless edits and self-reverts. Unless Ylogm adequately explains what that's about, I'm inclined to block per WP:NOTHERE. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:18, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Happened again at Wanli Era. I originally reverted a bunch of their moves, and I agree with the statement of WP:NOTHERE. ~ Eejit43 (talk) 18:58, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's about enough of that. Blocked, and it might be worth looking through Ylogm's other edits too. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:23, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
Revoke my Autopatrolled status
I do not think I have a good understanding of notability. Please revoke my autopatrolled permission. Thank you. X750. Spin a yarn? Articles I've screwed over? 08:22, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Done Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:08, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
General backlog building at WP:RFCLOSE
There are 14 discussions that are currently red at WP:RFCLOSE, including a large number that only an administrator is capable of closing due to relevant policies surrounding sanctions and deletion discussions. I plan to take some time to see if I can close some other discussions posted there, but more admin eyes (and hands) are urgently needed on that board so that the numerous aged discussions posted there can be brought to a timely close. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 00:55, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- 14 red discussions don't strike me as an inordinately large number of red discussions? Especially because over half that number are RfD closes which is a specialty area so it's not surprising (at least to me) when it takes longer for someone to close. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:18, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- In fact, I would strongly suggest that old XFD should almost never be listed at ANRFC. IznoPublic (talk) 17:42, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed. Primefac (talk) 17:49, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- On this point, I've removed the entirety of the RFD listings. All of them were routine, and a few were already closed. @LaundryPizza03, please avoid listing old routine XFD at ANRFC. Old XFD already have a list at the relevant fora and do not need special tracking.
- You'll be able to tell when an old XFD is not routine when they have many participants who do not agree with each other. Think north of 10 people. IznoPublic (talk) 18:06, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- The TOC format in the new skin obfuscates the backlog, which may explain why WP:RFD is suddenly getting persistently backlogged to the point where the main page is difficult to load. I would recommend either creating a custom in-text ToC that makes the backlog easier to navigate, or hiding all of the open RfD log pages like what we currently have at CfD. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 02:48, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Redrose64, since you reverted my removal, you will wish to discuss that reversion here. Izno (talk) 06:34, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- Your two edit summaries (one, two) did not give any indication that there was an ongoing discussion. At WP:CR, we do not simply remove requests unless (a) it was your own request and hasn't been replied to or (b) WP:TPO applies, such as prohibited/harmful material or duplicate requests. The way that we deal with premature or frivolous requests is to mark them
{{not done}}
with an explanation (example), set|done=yes
in the{{initiated}}
tag (if there is one) and let ClueBot III archive the thread(s) at its next run. The instructions at the top of the page (last paragraph, beginning "To reduce editing conflicts") make this explicit. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:07, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- Your two edit summaries (one, two) did not give any indication that there was an ongoing discussion. At WP:CR, we do not simply remove requests unless (a) it was your own request and hasn't been replied to or (b) WP:TPO applies, such as prohibited/harmful material or duplicate requests. The way that we deal with premature or frivolous requests is to mark them
- In fact, I would strongly suggest that old XFD should almost never be listed at ANRFC. IznoPublic (talk) 17:42, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
User claiming to be an admin
I came across a problematic userpage of a new user claiming to an admin. I would like a real admin to look into this. Thanks. Fancy Refrigerator (talk) 12:34, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the alert, Fancy Refrigerator. I have blanked the userpage in question and written to the user. Bishonen | tålk 12:42, 3 March 2023 (UTC).
Moving an article without proper reason
This user moved unconventionally the article NCAA Season 98 volleyball tournaments to Draft:NCAA Season 98 volleyball tournaments to Draft:Draft NCAA Season 98 volleyball tournaments to Unknown editor for unknown reason. Then created this article NCAA season 98 volleyball tournaments, the the user just lower case the word 'season' on article title page and copy-pasted all the contents from the former. Here's user contributions. — 9️⃣8️⃣🐯♒️•(🆃🅰🅻🅺) 02:00, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- 98Tigerius, doesn't the capitalization of the current title better reflect the guidance of the Manual of Style? If so, why does this require discussion at an administrator's noticeboard? Cullen328 (talk) 05:57, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Cullen328 Probably because it's a cut-and-paste move? LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 05:59, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- LilianaUwU, I did a couple of cut and paste moves as a new editor back in 2009, until more experienced editors gently explained the proper procedures to me. Nobody dragged me to WP:AN over that. Cullen328 (talk) 06:15, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Cullen328 because the user did it for second time but the user has been editing the now deleted article and I help a bit on that but I was taken a back when the user moved the article in an unconventional way today so I open a discussion here to seek guidance. When you see the history of the deleted article NCAA Season 98 volleyball tournaments, it was a mess. — 9️⃣8️⃣🐯♒️ • (🆃🅰🅻🅺) 07:01, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Cullen328 Probably because it's a cut-and-paste move? LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 05:59, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- Have you tried talking to the editor? Because it doesn't seem like you've tried talking to the editor. Or even notifying them that this discussion had been opened. I've taken the liberty of doing that for you. The WordsmithTalk to me 06:25, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
Close Review: Tranarchist Topic Ban
Listen, I'm as loathe as any of you to open a close review on such a long and frankly taxing ANI discussion as the recent discussion regarding alleged advocacy editing by TheTranarchist (talk · contribs). However, after going through the !votes I have good reason to believe that CaptainEek (talk · contribs)'s close was against consensus.
The main reason I believe this is that their counts are simply wrong: they seem to have ignored the fact that many of the editors who supported some sanction other than a topic ban explicitly opposed a topic ban. They say there were around 35 support !votes to around 25 oppose !votes, but there are actually by my count 35 editors who said they opposed a topic ban, of which 29 opposed any sanctions. Conversely, there are 38 editors who supported some kind of topic ban, but only 32 who supported the actual result of an indefinite (or unspecified) topic ban. The other 6 supported either time limited topic bans, or domain limited topic bans, such as a topic ban only on GENSEX BLPs specifically.
I understand that consensus is not a vote, but certainly a consensus should not go against what the majority of editors supported without a good reason, and especially a consensus largely based on the alleged fact that a majority of editors supported it, when they didn't. I think there's a rough consensus in that discussion for some sanction (44 to 29, and I say that as one of the 29), but pretty transparently not one for the specific sanction imposed (32 for versus 35 explicitly opposed, and 6 others).
If you want the full details, I have them below. I'm using noping because I feel notifying every single participant in said discussion is very excessive (but if any of them want to challenge my characterization of their !vote, feel free):
!vote count
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Loki (talk) 05:51, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse close which is well within an administrator's discretion to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of various arguments regarding policies and guidelines. Raw vote count charts are of no value. Cullen328 (talk) 06:10, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse close based on the arguments presented in the close. An Arbitrator, who is voted on and trusted by the community to determine consensus and handle the most difficult of user conduct disputes, feels that it was necessary and left a rather lengthy explanation of the reasoning. The closure was within the bounds of reasonable Administrator discretion, and most supported some form of sanction. I also note that consensus is not required to issue a topic ban due to Discretionary Sanctions applying to this area (though it seems it hasn't been properly logged as such yet). The WordsmithTalk to me 06:11, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- It's good form to note that you participated in the discussion being appealed, when opining on whether to endorse/overturn. Also, the reason this isn't logged as a CT (previously DS) sanction is that it isn't one; rather, it's a community sanction that defines its scope by incorporation of an ArbCom decision. There's an informal precedent that admins generally don't impose CT sanctions when there's an ongoing proposal for a community sanction. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 08:26, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'm involved here, so no boldfaced !vote, but I worry that the close has failed to consider to what extent the support !votes are applicable under the WP:TBAN policy:
The purpose of a topic ban is to forbid editors from making edits related to a certain topic area where their contributions have been disruptive
. A large number of support !votes cited only off-wiki comments; such !votes should have been given substantially less weight. We do not ban people for expressing political opinions off-wiki, perhaps outside cases where doing so creates an inherently unsafe editing environment (which I don't think anyone argued was the case here). -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 08:21, 4 March 2023 (UTC)- And FWIW, if I have one regret about the Athaenara affair, it's that I was merely neutral on the GENSEX TBAN; I should have opposed. It suffered from the same defective logic, citing bias outside of GENSEX content as basis to ban from that topic area. Although given its unanimity I can't fault that close. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 08:36, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for posting this, I was wondering if I should myself lol. I just want to note some quick considerations on three listed !votes.
- Snow_Rise later also expressed support for limited sanctions as opposed to a full topic ban being something that could work.
- Springee consistently called me back here whenever there was an editorial disagreement in the slightest. If you look at their most recent post on the thread, they accused me of being problematic due "walls of text" (discussions with another editor that resulted in us developing a working lead) and they cited me restoring removed content as evidence I was removing details (and it bears noting that generally their comments on the Cole talk page (including their proposed lead that didn't follow the body and mentioned nothing other than her campaigning against minors) have consistently sought to POV push the framing that Cole is only opposed to transgender healthcare for minors - the details I "removed" by restoring were the full details of a bill Cole supported that notably went far beyond concerns about minors transitioning). Multiple editors throughout the course of the discussion raised issues with their own editing and the flaws/hypocrisies in their allegations (and POV-pushing in other GENSEX articles). Speaking just to their latest post, Maddy From Celeste, who has been involved in the page, described their comments as
highly disingenuous
and noted they had been working against a lead consensus, leaving tangential WP:IDHT comments, and insinuating sources had issues without evidence. - JWeiss11 called for a TBAN based on my user page mission statement (trans people exist), "pattern of edits" without specification, "lengthy defenses when challenged" at my own ANI case, and accused my
polar political perspectives
of effecting articles. Any admin who has access to the arb-com email I sent - please confirm that JWeiss11 has a COI on FAIR I raised concerns about weeks ago. Also, when I quoted in response what I can describe no better than theirpolar political perspective
that theybelieve that the mean and distribution of genetic drivers for intelligence is not identical for each every and ethnic group of humans. Basic logic demands me to believe that
- their response wasEvidently you have a problem with basic logic.
... Not to mention the whole WP:IDHT and cries of censorship when he deadnamed Brianna Ghey, a trans girl who was just murdered, for no other reason than to say "it's not like Voldemort". Should this editors' !vote and reasoning really count? I can't be the only editor who sees an issue with an editor who pushes race science and has edited an article without disclosing their COI calling me a POV-pusher, right? - Additionally, I want to note that I repeatedly asked people to provide a single problematic GENSEX edit outside of WP:BLP and WP:BLPGROUP, and nobody has yet to do so. If a single editor can link to a single diff where anyone in that conversation brings up such an edit/article, please link it here, otherwise I would hope Habeas Corpus would apply. If any editors want to testify to the lack of that specific corpus, that would also work. Outside of my articles specifically about anti-trans individuals and group, the only comments my general GENSEX editing have received has been 1) praise for sticking to WP:MEDRS, WP:RS, and dealing with WP:FRINGE, and 2) vague insinuations the BLP / BLPGROUP problems might carry over without any evidence they have. The issues raised were all specifically my articles on anti-trans groups/people (and even then, not all of them). My writing and gnoming of LGBT history articles, LGBT rights articles, trans healthcare articles, and trans public/historical figure articles were never mentioned in any negative context. In fact, I feel somewhat remiss that nobody pinged @Reagle, despite quoting his quote in the Atlantic about how my work on Gloria Hemingway was explicitly wiki-policy based, not culture-warriorish.
- In short, I believe that the weight of !votes, both numerically and argumentatively, did not constitute a consensus for a GENSEX topic ban. The only evidence raised points towards issues with my articles on BLPs/BLPGROUPs, and even then only anti-LGBT ones. Considering that calls for no sanction and a TBAN were about equally represented, some type of sanction (perhaps even a TBAN) is probably called for on those specific types of articles, but AFAICT there has been no compelling evidence that completely cutting me off from all even marginally LGBT related articles is called for or would be beneficial to the encyclopedia. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 09:21, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- I want to clarify: relative to the larger culture war and Twitter, I found the Wikipedia discussion regarding Hemmingway commendable: Wikipedians, discussing, arguing, and reasoning together; and that was the POV expressed in the The Atlantic article. (Not that my comments there should have any authority here.)
- However, relative to Wikipedia, I subscribe to #Wikipedia on Mastodon and coincidentally saw TheTranarchist's posts about their activity, which seem more activist than encyclopedic -- i.e., gloating about unfavorable representations of biographical subjects on Wikipedia that the subjects object to. Similarly, LarstonMarston lists on their user page "People/organizations I strongly personally dislike", including Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull, but is actively editing that article. That concerns me. Reagle (talk) 13:37, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- No, this is a very poor close (Note: I opposed sanctions). But this is not a difficult one. It is absolutely fine to close a discussion one way or another when there is little numerical consensus as long as you explain why you are giving more weight to the comments provided by the side you close in favour of. If you don't do this, and you specifically close it on the basis of numbers (
"the votes in favor outweighed those opposed by a wide margin"
) when that is clearly not true, then that is a bad close and you don't even have the argument that it "was within discretion". It should be vacated. Black Kite (talk) 09:35, 4 March 2023 (UTC)- It wasn't solely closed on numbers, though. While CaptainEek did go into a lot of detail talking about numbers of !votes (so I can understand why it was interpreted this way), they also detail the content of TheTranarchists issues around editing. Furthermore there doesn't appear to have been a good enough defence of her editing to over-ride the arguments in favour of sanctions. — Czello 09:52, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- There isn't really a good definition of the reasons why, either, though. Far too many of the !votes for a TBAN are "per someone else", or they're editors who are in the opposing camp when it comes to their advocacy, and at least one is clearly a sock. And whilst the fact that the whole discussion was started by a sock of a banned editor who is almost certainly laughing away now at Wikipedia may be a minor point, it still exists. Black Kite (talk) 11:06, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think the OP being a sock really matters. If everyone took the Tranarchist's side I'd agree, but it clearly sparked a very legitimate conversation to which many uninvolved people contributed. Clearly, there's an issue - regardless of OP's motives. I found Eek's explanation of the reasons why to be sufficient, particularly in the 5th and 6th paragraphs. — Czello 11:22, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- There isn't really a good definition of the reasons why, either, though. Far too many of the !votes for a TBAN are "per someone else", or they're editors who are in the opposing camp when it comes to their advocacy, and at least one is clearly a sock. And whilst the fact that the whole discussion was started by a sock of a banned editor who is almost certainly laughing away now at Wikipedia may be a minor point, it still exists. Black Kite (talk) 11:06, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- It wasn't solely closed on numbers, though. While CaptainEek did go into a lot of detail talking about numbers of !votes (so I can understand why it was interpreted this way), they also detail the content of TheTranarchists issues around editing. Furthermore there doesn't appear to have been a good enough defence of her editing to over-ride the arguments in favour of sanctions. — Czello 09:52, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- @LokiTheLiar: Normally, the first step in challenging a close is to discuss it with the closer. I can't find that discussion anywhere; if I have missed it, can you please link the discussion - otherwise, why didn't you discuss this with CaptainEek? BilledMammal (talk) 11:08, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- Oh, honestly? Because I hadn't read that guideline. Honestly I really wish I had brought this up to CaptainEek first, because I think they are one of the most likely people here to not relitigate the argument and just admit their counts were wrong. Loki (talk) 16:00, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- There was a brief discussion on CaptainEek's talk page, where there is a continuation of behavior we already saw in the extremely verbose ANI discussion above (nit-picking details and selectively ignoring concerns). IMO, the arguments in the aforementioned novel were strongly in favor of a TBAN and the counter-arguments to them were weak. Even in the talk page discussion mentioned above the sanctioned individual admitted to seriously compromising wiki values but still insisted on trying to negotiate the sanctions. Additionally, it appears this closure review has sparked TTAs hopes for a reversal on their talk page, which has gone relatively unchanged and links to the, still unchanged, social media account. While I suspect there is no policy against this, it speaks to the disruption TTA will undoubtedly cause if allowed to edit in this topic area in the near future.
- I also find it interesting that the person who filed this decided to summarize the votes the way they did, without pinging the involved editors but challenging them to "dispute" the category they landed in. I've already spotted one error, representing an editor who struck their original vote and changed to sanctioning, in the oppose section. I wonder how many others are in there? Wikipedia isn't a democracy, consensus is more than just a raw count of votes, but everyone here already knows that (until it doesn't serve in their favor, of course).
- Endorse Closure - the arguments spoke for themselves, and keeping this open for any additional discussion is causing serious harm to the wiki community. Recommend SNOW CLOSE.
- Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:43, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- Agree entirely with this assessment. This close review is bordering on frivolous, frankly - and I suspect is born out of a personal dislike of the community consensus. — Czello 14:13, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
nit-picking details and selectively ignoring concerns
- how did I do that? I think Habeas corpus should apply, editors did raise issue but specifically the only issues raised were in a narrow set of articles: anti-trans BLPs/BLPGROUPs (if I am wrong in that assessment, somebody prove me wrong). Nobody raised issues with my GENSEX edits/articles outside of that narrow range, and I think a close should take that into account. I believe that a sanction of some kind on BLPs/BLPGROUPs was called for and should be left up to closer discretion, I wouldn't have minded either the AFC sanction or even a TBAN, but so far nobody has yet to provide a compelling reason why the ban should extend to all of GENSEX. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:08, 4 March 2023 (UTC)- I'm not going to engage in a debate with you, the discussion was already closed. Kcmastrpc (talk) 17:19, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- You just called into my question my behavior after the close... TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:21, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not going to engage in a debate with you, the discussion was already closed. Kcmastrpc (talk) 17:19, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- The close seems to be a reasonable one of a discussion longer than The Martian Chronicles or Brave New World --Guerillero Parlez Moi 13:11, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose close simply based on the fact that the OP of the thread was a sock - it should've been closed when that was found out. I guess banned users can still get what they want. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 14:08, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- Repeating what I said above:
I don't think the OP being a sock really matters. If everyone took the Tranarchist's side I'd agree, but it clearly sparked a very legitimate conversation to which many uninvolved people contributed. Clearly, there's an issue - regardless of OP's motives
— Czello 14:10, 4 March 2023 (UTC) - There were multiple editors who chimed in and mentioned they were considering opening an ANI. I don't see how the OP sock status has any weight compared to the novel that proceeded independent of the banned user being outed. Kcmastrpc (talk) 14:14, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- I guess the question is whether this would have ended differently had this been knocked on the head and then somebody else, who was an editor in good standing, had started a new thread? I don't know but I do think that it would have been vastly better if that had happened instead of this. This gives the impression that sockpuppetry can be an effective tool for getting what one wants. I'm not saying that it actually is, but people will see this and they can't be blamed if they come to that conclusion. This may well embolden other bad actors to try the same thing. It would be wise to watch out for any repeat performances. If it happens again the best thing would be to the close the thread immediately, without prejudice to somebody else starting a new one. DanielRigal (talk) 14:32, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
This gives the impression that sockpuppetry can be an effective tool for getting what one wants. I'm not saying that it actually is, but people will see this and they can't be blamed if they come to that conclusion.
Me. It's me. I have come to that conclusion. All a sockpuppet has to do is prompt some remarks from people who hang out at drama boards, and their actions are nominally legitimized. XOR'easter (talk) 15:20, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- Repeating what I said above:
- Endorse close I did not take part in the discussion. My view is that this close is within administrator discretion. It was awaiting closure for days on end and someone else could have come in and closed it as no consensus, but the fact is no-one did. Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:04, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- If the count is wrong, maybe Eek could just go back and fix it. While they're at it, give the !votes they miscounted a once-over to see if the change in numbers/opinions affects their thinking. If so, reclose it or leave it to someone else; if not, we can move on. The sanction which emerges from the closing statement is within reasonable determinations of consensus, but when a[n apparently inaccurate] headcount is framed as the starting point for assessing consensus, that affects how people feel about the outcome. [involved] — Rhododendrites talk \\ 15:17, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- A thought on the concerns that the OP was a sock. I spend a lot of time responding to sockpuppetry, and commonly strike or revert their contribs and delete their drafts and articles - I'm not pro-socking. I commented a couple of times early in the thread, but when it became clear that the OP was a sock I stepped away from the thread because I am not willing to spend my time investigating behavioural concerns raised by someone who ought to be editing here. However, many editors in good standing saw fit to bring their own concerns to the table after the sock had raised theirs. We cannot ignore procedurally valid concerns just because they followed on from some procedurally invalid ones. Maybe it would have been better in some ways for the initial thread to have been closed, and a new one started, but the end result would likely have been the same; lets face it, there are other venues where people who may be blocked or even banned here can go to complain about stuff, and those complaints do sometimes result in action being taken by editors in good standing on-wiki. As for the close itself, I don't envy CaptainEek for the time they must have spent reading through it, and I thank them that they were willing to take it on. I think the best course of action now would be to leave the closure as it is, and for TheTranarchist to spend six months working in different areas (there are lots), demonstrate that she has learned from this experience, and request the ban be lifted at that point. Girth Summit (blether) 15:41, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose close (Note: I opposed TBAN or any other sanctions). This close might be within administrator discretion, and the discussion surely was extra-long (longer than even some novels/plays, as some users already noted). But, the fact is that consensus/vote count wasn't at all convincing and overwhelming to justify a full, indefinite TBAN (or any other sanctions). The only logical thing was to close this as no consensus. And, there still remain the unpleasant fact that all of this was started by OP who was a sockpuppet of a perviously banned user, and that fact alone sounds really ludicrous to me. Having all that in mind, I see no logic or justification that a TBAN was imposed on a constructive and productive contributor like TheTranarchist. — Sundostund mppria (talk / contribs) 16:41, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment These users probably don't belong in the `Oppose all Sanctions` camp (feel free to correct):
- Pinguin did not outright oppose ->
Oppose sanctions, warning at most
- Colin did not vote
- XOR'easter neutral on warn ->
Oppose TBAN, neutral on warning
- Ppt91 did not vote
- SarekOfVulcan neutral on warn ->
Oppose TBAN, neutral on warning
- Lizthegrey reversed oppose ->
Warning, mainspace creation only through AfC
- Hist9600 supported warning ->
Oppose sanctions, warning at most
- Pinguin did not outright oppose ->
I did not bother going through the non-opposes, because as I suspected, the OP is purposefully misrepresenting votes to try and badger the closing admin. Should we be considering sanctions against @LokiTheLiar? (the users name is not lost on me). Kcmastrpc (talk) 17:16, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- It's you who is trying to misrepresent votes. Colin (talk · contribs) and ppt91 (talk · contribs) didn't bold anything but clearly said that they opposed sanctions. Pinguinn (talk · contribs) and Hist9600 (talk · contribs) said they opposed sanctions explicitly, it's incorrect to say that they supported a warning because they were were willing to allow a warning at most. I admit XOR'easter (talk · contribs) and SarekOfVulcan (talk · contribs) did indeed only oppose a topic ban explicitly, but they didn't support any other sanction, and the topic ban was really the sanction at issue here. So that leaves only Lizthegrey (talk · contribs), who I admittedly didn't catch had changed her vote to supporting a warning (but still opposing a topic ban). I've pinged all these people so they can verify if my characterization is correct and that you have in fact not said anything that would change the actual counts by even one vote. Loki (talk) 17:29, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- Your characterization of my position is correct. XOR'easter (talk) 17:34, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- That's true, I don't think a warning is really necessary. If the editor was oblivious and unwilling to accept criticism, then a warning would make sense, but I don't think that applies here. Hist9600 (talk) 17:50, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- It's frustrating to see my attempt to find consensus and a more reasonable middle ground is now being held up as evidence that sanctions were warranted. Yes, I originally opposed all sanctions, but changed my mind in response to other posters, and would wish that others would similarly be willing to walk back from the edge of full TBAN sanctions. This will encourage people to not change votes in future in response to discussion, and stick to the extremes and force closers to deal with extremely polarised !votes that are sticking there only to push the Overton Window rather than allow the community to reach a more reasonable compromise. To see a result that is a TBAN (one of the polar ends of the spectrum) rather than somewhere in the middle is disappointing. Lizthegrey (talk) 18:04, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- It's you who is trying to misrepresent votes. Colin (talk · contribs) and ppt91 (talk · contribs) didn't bold anything but clearly said that they opposed sanctions. Pinguinn (talk · contribs) and Hist9600 (talk · contribs) said they opposed sanctions explicitly, it's incorrect to say that they supported a warning because they were were willing to allow a warning at most. I admit XOR'easter (talk · contribs) and SarekOfVulcan (talk · contribs) did indeed only oppose a topic ban explicitly, but they didn't support any other sanction, and the topic ban was really the sanction at issue here. So that leaves only Lizthegrey (talk · contribs), who I admittedly didn't catch had changed her vote to supporting a warning (but still opposing a topic ban). I've pinged all these people so they can verify if my characterization is correct and that you have in fact not said anything that would change the actual counts by even one vote. Loki (talk) 17:29, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- The count is not entirely clear to me. I came up with 37 in favor of outright topic ban of some sort, 11 in favor of some sanctions, 2 warning only, 23 no sanctions. Just on a quick examination I notice that LokiTheLiar seems to have miscategorized Lizthegrey as opposed when they changed it to in favor of some sanctions, and Pinguinn as opposed when they changed it to warning.
my !vote count
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- I don't personally have an opinion on the T-BAN or the close, but I was curious that there was such an apparent discrepancy in the numbers. If anyone wants to reconcile Loki's list vs. mine feel free, this is about as much time as I care to spend on it. —DIYeditor (talk) 17:27, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- For some of the discrepancy see my response to kcmasterpc above. In addition, I didn't count Tranarchist themselves at all, nor the original sock who opened the thread. Loki (talk) 17:32, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- I also want to add some more granularity is called for in regards to calls for the TBAN. Some were explicit they considered the intersection the problem, other comments were ambiguous as to whether they supported the intersectional ban or GENSEX in general, and editors like Snow Rise expressed support for limited sanctions and their position could be characterized more so as opposed to no sanctions rather than wholly supportive of a full GENSEX ban, (@Snow Rise correct me if I'm wrong in that assesment). So if we split the categories into 1) those who supported a full GENSEX ban and 2) those who opposed it, either calling for no sanctions or limited targeted sanctions, there seems to be a majority considering the GENSEX ban proposed by the sock was overkill. That's also not even considering that some (certainly not all as many were in good faith) of the oppose votes were hypocritical at best (per my JWeiss11 example). And in terms of arguments raised, every criticism was specifically to WP:BLP and WP:BLPGROUP/WP:ORG (I also want to note that in my previous comments were I said WP:BLPGROUP, WP:ORG/WP:BLPGROUP would have been a better characterization) articles, and even more specifically anti-trans ones, with nobody at any point raising a single problematic edit/article outside of that narrow intersection (despite repeated requests to multiple editors that they do so). TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 18:05, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse close per Kcmastrpc. I've made my points elswhere in the thread but repeating them again here. I voted for the TBAN, for full disclosure. Ultimately WP:POLL applies (and even if it didn't, more users were still in favour of a TBAN than against) - discussion and consensus is what matters. I do believe a consensus developed during this discussion, and I believe CaptainEek adequately explained said consensus in the 5th and 6th paragraphs of the closing note. — Czello 17:36, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- ( Peanut gallery comment) Now before anything I will point out that I am barely extended-confirmed with very few non-trivial mainspace edits, so I guess you can feel free to disregard my post here. (My edit count and account age are both inflated, not accurate as a judge of my experience.) I must note that the closer's breakdown of notvotes is simply not harmonious with reality. It's probably true that something like 35 users did explicitly support
some kind of topic ban
, but it is not true that only 25 users explicitly opposed it. I don't think it's 35 (Ppt91 and Colin were neutral), but even discarding Timothy's conditional oppose there are at least 32 explicit TBAN opposes. To me this number appears incontestable (and I looked through it myself and drew up a table).Consensus is not determined by a simple tally, which is why I was astounded to see the claim thatthe votes in favor outweighed those opposed by a wide margin
(which, by my reading, is inaccurate), followed byThe !votes indicated that the community was generally in favor of a topic ban, so I then considered what factors might weigh against a topic ban.
Clearly, the basic tally highly influenced the closer's view by shifting the burden of proof onto the defense (as it were) instead of the prosecution. In the closer's summary there was not much mention of any arguments in favor of a TBAN, just thatthe community was generally in favor
of it; there was no discussion of whether that conclusion was warranted by the arguments. To make things clear: to me, it seems like the only substantive reason presented for a TBAN was the existence of a significant numerical majority favoring that outcome. That significant majority does not appear to exist; therefore, this close was unwarranted. If there were other reasons for a TBAN, I think it would be good for those to be mentioned in more detail somewhere.P.S. One major effect of this close is to send a loud message that newer users are frankly unwelcome in the GENSEX arena. If you make a newbie mistake, you can be sure it will be hauled out at you when the inevitable ANI filing comes, and the hammer will come down. Punishment (don't kid yourselves with the "sanctions should not be punitive" platitude) has replaced correction in this content area. (And, just by the way, I am not even convinced that this TBAN is a bad thing. It might really be helpful. But it feels like part of a larger anti-pattern.) Shells-shells (talk) 17:43, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- You are certainly correct in that it appears that is now simple for editors with a certain POV (including sockpuppets of banned editors, one of which started the discussion) to remove other editors who oppose them from contentious areas without using the correct venue, which would be AE. This, IMO, is not a good thing. Especially in this case, where we - like many other social media fora - have a significant number of "gender critical" editors flooding the encyclopedia to push their views. Black Kite (talk) 17:56, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse close. I’m somewhat uninvolved with this. I was involved in the discussion at BLPN, and I made a single comment during the discussion. This is clearly well within admin discretion. Counts in large discussions of this sort will always be slightly wishy-washy, but if we take Loki’s numbers, it’s obviously a reasonable reading of consensus. If the numbers are 44 to 29, assuming reasonably equal weighting among arguments, there is a clear consensus for some sanction. Now, looking at the discussion with the understanding there is a consensus for a topic ban, we look at those supporting a sanction, and by Loki’s numbers 32 of the 44 supported an indef topic ban. That is reasonable to read as a consensus for an indef topic ban. There is nothing standing out that would be the obvious misreading of consensus or procedural issue that meets the threshold for overturning a close.As for the thread was opened by a sock argument, it has nothing to do with the close. The thread was open on ANI for a long time, and that would have been the place to shut the thread down. That the thread lasted as long as it did, with a significant amount of good faith input, is clear consensus that the thread should not have been closed. Arguing that now isn’t going to work because the horse is already out of the stable. Yes, it sucks that an editor is being sanctioned as the result of a thread started by a sock, but the actual consensus is among editors in good standing.It’s clear from the discussions here that this was a huge and difficult thread to close. There’s not even agreement about the total numbers. We should be thanking CaptainEek for spending the huge amount of time and effort it takes to read, parse, and absorb a discussion of this size, then weigh the arguments and provide their close. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:00, 4 March 2023 (UTC)