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I assume I'm missing a very simple answer here, but how is a non-admin deleting articles? [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&target=Aron_Stevens See here] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&target=Damien_Sandow here] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&target=Talk%3ADamien_Sandow here]?--[[User:Ponyo|<font color="Navy">Jezebel's '''Ponyo'''</font>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ponyo|<font color="Navy">''bons mots''</font>]]</sup> 20:33, 30 August 2016 (UTC) |
I assume I'm missing a very simple answer here, but how is a non-admin deleting articles? [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&target=Aron_Stevens See here] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&target=Damien_Sandow here] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&target=Talk%3ADamien_Sandow here]?--[[User:Ponyo|<font color="Navy">Jezebel's '''Ponyo'''</font>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ponyo|<font color="Navy">''bons mots''</font>]]</sup> 20:33, 30 August 2016 (UTC) |
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:Hey {{U|Ponyo}}, See [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Entries showing up in deletion log]] - [[User:NQ|'''NQ''']] [[User talk:NQ|<small>(talk)</small>]] 20:38, 30 August 2016 (UTC) |
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RFC on including DC Comics
(Initiated 154 days ago on 21 December 2023) Long past 'best before' date. - wolf 17:17, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
RfC: Change INFOBOXUSE to recommend the use of infoboxes?
(Initiated 69 days ago on 15 March 2024) Ready to be closed. Charcoal feather (talk) 17:02, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
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WP:RSN#RFC:_The_Anti-Defamation_League
(Initiated 47 days ago on 7 April 2024) Three related RFCs in a trench coat. I personally think the consensus is fairly clear here, but it should definitely be an admin close. Loki (talk) 14:07, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Enforcing ECR for article creators
(Initiated 45 days ago on 8 April 2024) Discussion appears to have died down almost a month after this RfC opened. Would like to see a formal close of Q1 and Q2. Awesome Aasim 00:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
Talk:Brothers of Italy#RfC on neo-fascism in info box 3 (Effectively option 4 from RfC2)
(Initiated 45 days ago on 8 April 2024) Clear consensus for change but not what to change to. I've handled this RfC very badly imo. User:Alexanderkowal — Preceding undated comment added 11:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: The RfC tag was removed the same day it was started. This should be closed as a discussion, not an RfC. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:03, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
Talk:Mukokuseki#RfC on using the wording "stereotypically Western characteristics" in the lead
(Initiated 43 days ago on 11 April 2024) ☆SuperNinja2☆ TALK! 09:41, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- See Talk:Mukokuseki#Close Plz 5/21/2024 Orchastrattor (talk) 20:34, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
Talk:Tesla,_Inc.#Rfc_regarding_Tesla's_founders
(Initiated 37 days ago on 17 April 2024) Will an experienced uninvolved editor please assess consensus? There has been a request at DRN now that the RFC has completed activity, but what is needed is formal closure of the RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:36, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Done Robert McClenon (talk) 04:59, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
Talk:SpaceX Starship flight tests#RfC: Should we list IFT mission outcome alongside launch outcome?
(Initiated 33 days ago on 20 April 2024) An involved user has repeatedly attempted to close this after adding their arguments. It's a divisive topic and a close would stop back and forth edits. DerVolkssport11 (talk) 12:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- To clarify, the RfC was closed in this dif, and an IP editor unclosed it, with this statement: "involved and pushing"
- In just over an hour, the above editor voiced support for the proposal.
- I reclosed it, and the same IP opened the RfC again, with this message: "pushing by involved users so ask for more comments".
- I reclosed once more. And then the editor who opened this requests opened it. To avoid violated WP:3RR, I have not reclosed it, instead messaging the original closer to notify them.
- The proposal itself was an edit request that I rejected. The IP who made the request reopened the request, which I rejected once more. They then proceeded to open an RfC. Redacted II (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
Talk:Hunter Biden#RfC: Washington Post report concerning emails
(Initiated 29 days ago on 24 April 2024) There's been no comments in 5 days. TarnishedPathtalk 03:20, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
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Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 April 27#Category:Unrecognized tribes in the United States
(Initiated 46 days ago on 7 April 2024) This one has been mentioned in a news outlet, so a close would ideally make sense to the outside world. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 13:56, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Stress marks in East Slavic words
(Initiated 18 days ago on 6 May 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 17:30, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
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Talk:1985_Pacific_hurricane_season#Proposed_merge_of_Hurricane_Ignacio_(1985)_into_1985_Pacific_hurricane_season
(Initiated 114 days ago on 30 January 2024) Listing multiple non-unanimous merge discussions from January that have run their course. Noah, AATalk 13:50, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
Talk:12 February 2024 Rafah strikes#Merge proposal to Rafah offensive
(Initiated 100 days ago on 13 February 2024) The discussion has been inactive for over a month, with a clear preference against the merge proposal. CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 19:35, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
Talk:Rupert_Sheldrake#Talkpage_"This_article_has_been_mentioned_by_a_media_organization:"_BRD
(Initiated 37 days ago on 16 April 2024) - Discussion on a talkpage template, Last comment 6 days ago, 10 comments, 4 people in discussion. Not unanimous, but perhaps there is consensus-ish or strength of argument-ish closure possible. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:24, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- It doesn't seem to me that there is a consensus here to do anything, with most editors couching their statements as why it might (or might not) be done rather than why it should (or should not). I will opine that I'm not aware there's any precedent to exclude {{Press}} for any reason and that it would be very unusual, but I don't think that's good enough reason to just overrule Hipal. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 01:01, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 May#Multiple page move of David articles
(Initiated 22 days ago on 1 May 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 18:13, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Talk:Press_Your_Luck_scandal#Separate_articles
(Initiated 21 days ago on 2 May 2024) Please review this discussion. --Jax 0677 (talk) 01:42, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
Talk:Agroforestry#Merge_proposal
(Initiated 20 days ago on 3 May 2024) As the proposer I presume I cannot close this. It was started more than a week ago and opinions differed somewhat. Chidgk1 (talk) 13:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 May#2018–2019 Gaza border protests
(Initiated 14 days ago on 9 May 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 18:13, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Talk: Political controversies in the Eurovision Song Contest#Requested move 13 May 2024
(Initiated 10 days ago on 13 May 2024)
Move proposal on a contentious area which has been going more than long enough.
PicturePerfect666 (talk) 03:43, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Relisted by editor BilledMammal on 21 May 2024. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 02:20, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
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Administrator Log
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following administrators have recently applied ECP following the close of the new community standards, but may not yet have completed the policy requirement related to notification is to be posted in a subsection of AN for review
. Please post your information below. Please also note, there is already a discussion about this requirement and its mechanisms below (Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#ECP_postings_to_AN). Thank you, — xaosflux Talk 10:49, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
- User:Deb
- I've amended the protection level on the 3 articles involved. I don't really understand the new policy and, frankly, I can't remember why I set that particular level in each case, but I believe it was because they were being repeatedly recreated by the same user who was already autoconfirmed. Deb (talk) 11:02, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
- User:David Gerard
- I SALTed perennially-recreated spam magnets at that level to avoid full protection. Should I just fully protect those articles instead? Seems worse - David Gerard (talk) 11:09, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
- User:CorbieVreccan
- OK, I'm a bit confused by this. I think the ECP option, along with template editor, was rolled in when I wasn't paying close enough attention. I can put the articles back to semi, but it seemed a better option for tendentious edit-warring where a new account that had racked up a great number of edits in a short period of time was involved. As that user is now blocked, normal semi would probably be fine. I need to go read the new policies and will amend if needed. Thanks. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 15:25, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
Content translator tool creating nonsense pages
Machine translation gadget
There is currently a gadget called GoogleTrans which allows the straight dropping of google translate into the content translation tool. (See here). I just did a test, and I was able to produce a machine translated article into english without leaving wikipedia using this gadget. Pinging the creator of the gadget: @Endo999:. I do not think this gadget should be present on the English wikipedia, and certainly not when it seems to explicitly endorse machine translations. Fortunately, it doesn't get around the edit filter, but it still sends a terrible message. Tazerdadog (talk) 09:02, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you, I didn't remember about that gadget; I surely can make good use of it. That's the kind of tools that may be invaluable time savers in the hands of us who know how to use them, making the difference between translating a stub right now when you first stumble upon it (thanks to the kick-start of having part of the work already done), or leaving it for another day (and never coming back to it).
- Given that the CTX tool has been restricted to experienced editors, and that the GoogleTrans gadget needs to be explicitly activated, the combination of the two won't be at the hands unexperienced newbies in the way that created the current backlog. The GoogleTrans doesn't insert translated content into text fields, it merely shows the translation in a pop-up; so I don't agree that it "explicitly endorses machine translations". Any editor with your experience should know better than copy-paste machine translated text unedited into an article. Diego (talk) 10:39, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- I am the creator of the GoogleTrans gadget and it does do Machine Translation Under The HTML Markup when used in the Content Translation system. I have used this to translate 226 articles from the frwiki to the enwiki and got all of them reviewed okay. The Machine Translation is a starting point. You still have to manually change each and every sentence to get the grammar and meaning right. It's not very sensible to ban it because, without human followup, it produces a bad article. The point is that it is a tool to quicken the translation of easy to medium difficulty articles, especially for good language pairs like English-French. Wikipedia, itself, uses both Apertium and Yandex translation engines to do machine translation and these have been used to good effect in the Catalan and Spanish wikipedias. GoogleTrans does the same thing as Apertium in the Content Translation system, except it uses Google Translate, which most people feel is a better translation engine. As Diego says this needs to be explicitly turned on, so it tends to restrict usage to competent editors. To stress the point, Machine Translation, as done by GoogleTrans gadget, is a starting point, it is not the end product. Human intervention is required to massage the MT into decent destination language text and grammar, but Machine Translation can help start the translation quite a bit. Wikipedia feels that Machine Translation is worth doing, because it has it as a feature (using both Yandex and Apertium machine translation engines) Endo999 (talk) 11:45, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- Except that we have a policy against machine translation on en.wikipedia, because the requirements for correcting its output are far higher than users tend to realise; in fact it is easier and faster to translate from scratch than to spend the necessary time and effort comparing the original with the translation to find the errors. Hence the whole long discussion above and the agreement that machine translations can be deleted as such. Yngvadottir (talk) 19:13, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- There is no policy against Machine Translation on the enwiki. That would have to be posted on the Content Translation blog, and it isn't. I've done 226 of these articles successfully and I can tell you there is more editing for non text issues, like links around dates coming from the frwiki, editing getting references right, manual changing of TAGS because their parameter headings are in the origin language. The actual translation work postprocessing, when polished up by a person competent in the destination language is far less than you say. But style differences between the wikis take more of the editors time. Endo999 (talk) 19:44, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- The policy is at WP:MACHINETRANSLATION, and has been in force for a decade. ‑ Iridescent 19:49, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- The policy is against unedited machine translation. It doesn't apply to using machine translation as a starting point to be cleaned up by hand. Diego (talk) 20:12, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- MACHINETRANSLATION isn't a policy. It isn't even a guideline. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:14, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
- I have never claimed that Machine Translation first drafts are good enough for articles on the enwiki. They aren't, but responsible use of Machine Translation, as a first draft, that is then worked on to become readable and accurate in the destination language is quite okay and even helpful. Endo999 (talk) 20:40, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- The policy is against unedited machine translation. It doesn't apply to using machine translation as a starting point to be cleaned up by hand. Diego (talk) 20:12, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- The policy is at WP:MACHINETRANSLATION, and has been in force for a decade. ‑ Iridescent 19:49, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- The consensus is pretty clear that unless you are translating at a professional level, machine translation is a trap. It looks good at first glance, but often introduces bad and difficult to detect errors, such as missed negations or cultural differences. Even if a human caught 9 out of 10 of these errors, the translation would be grossly unacceptable and inaccurate. I'd request that this gadget be disabled, or at minimum, de-integrated from the content translation tool. Tazerdadog (talk) 23:33, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- Well. I'm pretty far from being a fan of machine translations, but it's always been possible to copy/paste from Google Translate. Anyone autoconfirmed can do that without going to all the trouble of finding and enabling this gadget. The problem is fundamentally behavioural rather than technological. The specific problem behaviour is putting incomprehensible or misleading information in the mainspace. Over-reliance on machine translation is a cause of this, but we can't prevent or disable machine translation entirely, and there's not much point trying. I think the position we should adopt is that it is okay to use machine-aided translations provided you don't put them in the mainspace until they've been thoroughly checked by someone who reads the source language and writes the target language fluently. I suggest the approach we take to Endo999's tool is to add some warnings and instructions rather than try to disable it.—S Marshall T/C 23:51, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- Don't forget that the use of Machine Translation in the Content Translation system is expanding all the time, and I'm am pretty much the only regular user of my GoogleTrans gadget for translation purposes. Why is the gadget being singled out? Yandex machine translation is being turned on by the Content Translation people all the time for various languages, like Ukranian and Russian. The Catalan and Spanish wikipedias are at the forefront of machine translation for article creation and they are not being flamed like this. I reiterate that the majority of edits per my frwiki-to-enwiki articles are over differences in the frwiki for an article than for articles in the enwiki. The treatment of dates and athletic times is one such difference. You need to do postediting after the document has been published in order to please the editors of the destination wiki. This usually has nothing to do with the translated text but is actually the treatment of links, the treatment of dates, the removal of underlines in links, the adding of categories, the transfer of infoboxes, the addition of references (the fiwiki is particularly good for references of track and field athletes), and other wiki standards (that are different from the origin wiki). There's always going to be some postediting of translated articles because of these nontranslation specific items. It's just inherent in wiki to wiki article movement. Endo999 (talk) 00:24, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- We don't care about what happens on other wikipedia language versions, basically. Some are happy to have 99% bot-created articles, some hate bot-created articles. Some are happy with machine-translated articles, some don't. It may be true that "the use of Machine Translation in the Content Translation system is expanding all the time", but at enwiki, such a recent "expansion" started all this as the results were mostly dreadful. "Why is the gadget being singled out? Yandex machine translation is being turned on by the Content Translation people all the time for various languages, like Ukranian and Russian." Your gadget is in use on enwiki, what gadgets they use on ruwiki or the like is of no concern to us. We "single out" tools in use on enwiki, since this is an enwiki-only discussion. And this discussion is not about the long list of more cosmetic things you give at the end (or else I would start a rant about your many faux-bluelinks to frwiki articles in enwiki articles, a practice I truly dislike), it is (mostly) about quality of translation, comprehensability and accuracy. Yours are a lot better than most articles created with ContentTranslation, luckily. Fram (talk) 07:07, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- Don't forget that the use of Machine Translation in the Content Translation system is expanding all the time, and I'm am pretty much the only regular user of my GoogleTrans gadget for translation purposes. Why is the gadget being singled out? Yandex machine translation is being turned on by the Content Translation people all the time for various languages, like Ukranian and Russian. The Catalan and Spanish wikipedias are at the forefront of machine translation for article creation and they are not being flamed like this. I reiterate that the majority of edits per my frwiki-to-enwiki articles are over differences in the frwiki for an article than for articles in the enwiki. The treatment of dates and athletic times is one such difference. You need to do postediting after the document has been published in order to please the editors of the destination wiki. This usually has nothing to do with the translated text but is actually the treatment of links, the treatment of dates, the removal of underlines in links, the adding of categories, the transfer of infoboxes, the addition of references (the fiwiki is particularly good for references of track and field athletes), and other wiki standards (that are different from the origin wiki). There's always going to be some postediting of translated articles because of these nontranslation specific items. It's just inherent in wiki to wiki article movement. Endo999 (talk) 00:24, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- @Endo999: I just happened to check Odette Ducas, one of your translations from French. You had Lille piped to read "Little". This is a good illustration of how easy it is to miss errors, and it's not fair, in fact counterproductive, to encourage machine-based translation and depend on other editors to do the necessary painstaking checking. Yngvadottir (talk) 17:20, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for catching that error (Lille translated at Little). I had seen and corrected that problem in a later article on a french female track athlete from Lille, but didn't correct the earlier translated article. Don't forget that Wikipedia is about ordinary people creating Wikipedia articles and through the ARGUS (many eyes) phenonmenon having many people correct articles so they become good articles. This is one example of that. Wikipedia is not about translation being restricted to language experts or simply experts for article creation. Your argument does tend towards that line of thought. Endo999 (talk) 18:56, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- I don't think it does (for one thing, all you can know of my level of expertise is what I demonstrate). The wiki method is about trusting the wisdom of the crowd: this tool hoodwinks people. It's led you to make a silly error you wouldn't have otherwise made, and it's led to at least one eager new editor being indeffed on en.wikipedia. It rests on condescending assumptions that the editing community can't be left to decide what to work on, in what order. (Not to mention the assumptions about how other Wikipedias must be delighted to get imported content just because.) Yngvadottir (talk) 19:04, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
I'ld like to retract my compliment about Endo999's use of his translation tool. I have just speedy deleted his machine translation of Fatima Yvelain, which was poorly written (machine translation) and a serious BLP violation. Fram (talk) 08:01, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
- Almost everyone of the articles I have translated, using the GoogleTrans gadget, has already been reviewed by other editors and passed. I can only translate the existing French, which is sometimes not well written. In Fatima Yvelain's case I transferred over all the sources from the frwiki article. Can you tell me which reference didn't work out. You've deleted the article, without the ordinary seven day deletion period, so you deleted the article without any challenges. Are you and a few other reviewers systematically going through every article I have translated looking for things to criticize? Endo999 (talk) 01:54, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
- That's how Wikipedia rolls; it's the easiest way to demonstrate supposed incompetence, and since incompetence on the part of the creator reflects on the tool, it is therefore the easiest way in which to get the tool removed (along with phrases such as "I'd like to retract my compliment", which I hate as much as Fram hates faux-bluelinks). Simples. jcc (tea and biscuits) 11:00, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
- Having just checked the article for myself, if it was really "reviewed by other editors and passed" it reflects just as badly on those other editors as it does on you, given that it contained an entire paragraph of grossly libellous comments sourced entirely to an alleged reference which is on a completely unrelated topic and doesn't mention the subject once. (The fr-wikipedia article still contains the same paragraph, complete with fake reference.) Checking the review log for the page in question, I see no evidence that the claim that anyone else reviewed it is actually true. ‑ Iridescent 15:46, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
- That's how Wikipedia rolls; it's the easiest way to demonstrate supposed incompetence, and since incompetence on the part of the creator reflects on the tool, it is therefore the easiest way in which to get the tool removed (along with phrases such as "I'd like to retract my compliment", which I hate as much as Fram hates faux-bluelinks). Simples. jcc (tea and biscuits) 11:00, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
I realise this isn't a vote, but I agree with Tazerdadog that having such a tool easily available is sending the wrong message. It needs to be restricted to experienced users, with plenty of warnings around it. Deb (talk) 13:28, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
- You are all panicking. There's nothing wrong with using the GoogleTrans gadget with the Content Translation system if the appropriate editing happens alongside it. The ordinary review process can uncover articles that are not translated well enought. I'm being punished for showing ingenuity here. Punishing innovation is a modern trait I find. Endo999 (talk) 07:31, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
- No, our reveiw processes are not adequate for this. Both the problems with translated articles, and the unrelated but similar problems with tool created articles (now discussed at WP:ANI show the problems we have in detecting articles which superficially look allright (certainly when made by editors with already some edits) but which are severely deficient nevertheless, and in both cases the problems were worse because tools made the mass creation of low quality articles much easier. While this is the responsability of the editors, not the tools, it makes sense to dismiss tools which encourage such creations. Fram (talk) 09:19, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
User:Fram per "We don't care about what happens on other wikipedia language versions" please speak only for yourself. Some of us care deeply what happens in other language version of Wikipedia. User:Endo999 tool is not a real big issue. It does appear that the Fatima Yvelain needs to have its references checked / improved before translation. And of course the big thing with translation is to end up with good content you need to start with good content. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:41, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
- We, on enwiki, don't care about what happens at other language versions: such discussions belong either at that specific language or at a general site (Wikimedia). These may involve the same people of course. 19:45, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Do people feel that a RFC on this topic would be appropriate/helpful? The discussion seems to have fixated on minute analyses of Endo999's editing, which is not the point. The discussion should be on whether the presence of the gadget is an implicit endorsement of machine translated materials, and whether its continued presence sends the wrong message. Tazerdadog (talk) 22:33, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, I believe an RfC would be helpful assuming it is well prepared.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:49, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
- The GoogleTrans gadget has been running on the enwiki for the last 7 years and has 29,000 people who load the gadget when they sign into Wikipedia. It's quite a successful gadget and certainly, wiki to wiki translators have concentrated on the gadget because while they may know English (when they are translating articles between the enwiki and their home wikis) they like to get the translation of a word every once in a while. Endo999 (talk) 17:05, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
- Discussion on this matter seems to have mostly died down, but I was unaware of this discussion until now and I feel the need to speak up on behalf of translation tools. I don't believe the tool being discussed here is the one I am using, since *it* does not provide a machine translation into english. However. I do put english into French based on the machine translation. I repeat, *based on*. Many of my edits to date have been translation and cleanup after translation, so I am probably close to an ideal use case. The tool, Yandex.Translate, appeared on my French wikipedia account and I do find it useful, although it produces text that needs to be gone over 4-5 times, as, yes, it sometimes creates inappropriate wikilinks, often in the case where a word can mean a couple of different things and the tool picks the wrong one. And it consistently translates word by word. I have submitted a feature request for implementation of some basic rules -- for example in German the verb is always the last word in the sentence and in French the word order is almost always "dress blue" not "blue dress". But there are many many MANY articles with word order problems on Wikipedia; it's just usually more subtle that that when the originating editor was human but not a native English speaker. So it's a little like fixing up the stilted unreferenced prose of someone who can't write but yea verily does know MUCH more about the topic than I do. And has produced a set of ideas, possibly inelegantly expressed, I would not have conceived of. The inelegant writing is why we have all this text in a *wiki*
- For the record, I agree that machine-translated text is an anathema and have spent way too many hours rescuing articles from its weirdnesses, such as "altar" coming through as "furnace branch" in Notre-Dame de la Garde. BUT. Used properly, machine translation is useful. For one thing it is often correct about the translation for specific obscure words. I deeply appreciated this when, for example, I was doing English into French on a bio of a marauding Ottoman corsair who, at one point or another, invaded most of the Mediterranean. I am an English speaker who was educated in French and has spent years operating in French, but the equivalent terms for galleon, caravel, Papal States, apse and nave, for example, not to mention Crusader castles and Aegean islands, weren't at the tip of my tongue. Its suggestions needed to be verified, but so do Google Search results. I could look these words up, sure, and do anyway, but Yandex gives my carpal tendons a break, in that I can do one thing at a time, ie translate a bit of text like "he said" then check to make sure that wikilink is correct, move down to the next paragraph and do some other simple task like correcting word order while I mull why it is that the suggested translation sounds awkward, walk away and come back... All of this is possible without the tool, but more difficult, and takes much longer. I have translated more articles in the past month, at least to a 0.95 version, that I had in the entire previous several years I've been editing wikipedia. Since the tool suggests articles that exist on one wikipedia but not the other, I am also embarking on translations I otherwise would not, because of length or sheer number of lookups needed to refresh my memory on French names for 16th-century Turkish or Albanian settlements or for product differentiation or demand curve or whatever. Or simply because while the topic may be important it's fundamentally tedious and needs to be taken in small doses, like some of the stuff I've been doing with French jurisprudence and which is carefully labeled, btw, as a translation in progress on those published articles that are still approaching completion.
- I agree that such tools should not be available to people who don't have the vocabulary to use them. I don't really have suggestions as to what the criteria should be, but there is a good use for them. They -- or at least this tool -- do however make it possible to publish a fully-formed article, which reduces the odds of cranky people doing a speedy delete while you are pondering French template syntax for {{cn}} or whatever. This has happened to me. The tool is all still kinda beta and the algorithm does ignore special characters, which I hope they remedy soon. (In other words ê becomes e and ç becomes c etc.) Also, template syntax differs from one wiki to another so infoboxes and references often error out when the article is first published. Rule of thumb, possibly: don't publish until you can spend the hour or so chasing this sort of thing down down. And the second draft is usually still a bit stilted and in need of an edit for idiom. But the flip side of that is that until you do publish, the tool keeps your work safe from cranky people and in one place, as opposed to having to reinvent the version management wheel or wonder whether the draft is in Documents or on the desktop. Some people complain within 3 minutes of publication that the article has no references without taking the time to realize that the article is a translation of text that has no references. As the other editor said above, translation tools aren't magic and won't provide a reference that isn't there or fix a slightly editorial or GUIDEBOOK tang to language -- this needs to come next as a separate step. When references are present the results are uneven, but I understand that this issue *is* on the other hand on the to-do list. Anyway, these are my thoughts on the subject; as you can see I have thunk quite a few of them and incidentally have reported more than one bug. But we are all better off if people like me do have these tools, assuming that there is value in French wikipedia finding out about trade theory and ottoman naval campaigns, and English wikipedia learning about the French court system. Elinruby (talk) 08:39, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Articles created by block-evading sock using the WMF translation tool
My attention was drawn at a site I should not link to and therefore will not name (however, the thread title is "The WMF gives volunteers another 100K articles to check") to the fact that Duckduckstop created several articles using the WMF translation tool. They were blocked on 5 April as a sock of a blocked user, and their edits are thus revertable. I checked one translated article as a test, John of Neumarkt, and I've seen worse, but it is clearly based on a machine translation and contains at least one inaccurate and potentially misleading passage: "Auch in Olmütz hielt sich Johannes nur selten auf" does not mean "Also in Olomouc, John held only rarely"; it means he rarely spent any time there, but a reader might either not understand that or think it meant he rarely claimed the title. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review contains thousands of pages, the vast majority still to be checked. Only a few of us are working there. I feel guilty having taken a few days off to write 2 new articles. I haven't looked through Duckduckstop's page creations to see what proportion were created with the translation tool, but that one has not been substantially edited by anyone else. I suggest that in this emergency situation, it and others that fall into both categories—translation tool, and no substantial improvements by other editors—be deleted under the provision for creations by a blocked/banned user. Yngvadottir (talk) 17:42, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- Hi there. I have had a look today at that list, but haven't really been posting comments since as far as I could see nobody else has been there in several days. I do not know what happened with duckduckstop but as to the articles on the list
- - I do not understand why an article about a French general who invaded several countries under Napoleon is nominated for deletion as far as I can tell solely on based on authorship? Do we not trust the content because of the person who wrote it? Can someone explain this to me? I glanced at the article quickly and the English seems fine. This is a serious question; I don't get it. Also, why did we delete Genocide in Guatemala? It was already redlinked when I noticed it, but unless the article was truly astonishing bad, I would have made an effort to clean that one up. Personally. Considering that some of the stuff that's been on the "cleanup after translation" list the past few years --- we have had articles on individual addresses in Paris. We have lists of say, songs on a 1990s album in Indonesian, sheriffs of individual municipalities in Wales (one list per century), and government hierarchies in well, pretty much everywhere.
- - I have a suggestion: The person who decides that we need a set of articles for each madrasa in Tunis, water tower in Holland or mountain in Corsica is responsible for finishing the work on the articles in the set to a certain standard. Which can be quite low, incidentally. I have no objection to some of the association football and track and field articles that are being nominated for deletion. They may not be sparking entralling prose but they are there and tell you, should you want to know, who that person is. Similarly the articles about figures in the literature of Quebec, while only placeholders, do contain information and are preferable to nothing. Although I don't see machine translation as the huge problem some people apparently do, the translation tool also does need work. It might be nice if it sent articles to user space by default, and the articles could then be published from there there after polishing. Elinruby (talk) 14:26, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
- Guatemalan genocide was redirected, not deleted, for being a very poor translation, resulting in sentences like this (one sentence!): "The perpetración of systematic massacres in Guatemala arose of the prolonged civil war of this country centroamericano, where the violence against the citizenship, native mayas of the rural communities of the country in his majority, has defined in level extensivo like genocide -of agreement to the Commission for the Esclarecimiento Historical- according to the crimes continued against the minoritary group maya ixil settled between 1981 and 1983 in the northern demarcation of the department of The Quiché, in the oil region of the north Transversal Band, with the implication of extermination in front of the low demographic density of the etnia -since it #finish to begin to populate the region hardly from the decade of 1960- and the migration forced of complete communities to the border region in search of asylum in Chiapas, Mexico , desarraigadas by the persecution; in addition to becoming like procedure of tactical State of earth arrasada, tortures, disappearances, «poles of development» -euphemism for fields of concentration- and recurrent outrages against the women and girls ixiles, many of them dying by this cause, crimes of lesa humanity against of all the international orders of Human rights." Fram (talk) 08:56, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
- Heh. That's not unusual. But see there *is* an article, which was my primary concern. I should have checked before using it as an example. Here is the point I was trying to make. Since apparently I didn't, let me spell it out. -- I have put in a considerable amount of time on the "cleanup after translation" list so yes, I absolutely agree that horrible machine translations exist. I have cleaned many of them up. But. Many of the articles we keep are extremely trivial. Many get deleted that seem somewhat important, actually, just not to the particular person who AfD's them. I have seen articles on US topics get kept because of a link to Zazzle. (!) Perhaps my POV is warped by the current mess I am trying to straighten out in the articles on the French court system, but it seems to me that the english wiki is rather dismissive of other cultures. (Cour d'assises != Assizes, just saying; this is what we call a cognate.) That is all; just something that has been bothering me. Elinruby (talk) 05:59, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
- Guatemalan genocide was redirected, not deleted, for being a very poor translation, resulting in sentences like this (one sentence!): "The perpetración of systematic massacres in Guatemala arose of the prolonged civil war of this country centroamericano, where the violence against the citizenship, native mayas of the rural communities of the country in his majority, has defined in level extensivo like genocide -of agreement to the Commission for the Esclarecimiento Historical- according to the crimes continued against the minoritary group maya ixil settled between 1981 and 1983 in the northern demarcation of the department of The Quiché, in the oil region of the north Transversal Band, with the implication of extermination in front of the low demographic density of the etnia -since it #finish to begin to populate the region hardly from the decade of 1960- and the migration forced of complete communities to the border region in search of asylum in Chiapas, Mexico , desarraigadas by the persecution; in addition to becoming like procedure of tactical State of earth arrasada, tortures, disappearances, «poles of development» -euphemism for fields of concentration- and recurrent outrages against the women and girls ixiles, many of them dying by this cause, crimes of lesa humanity against of all the international orders of Human rights." Fram (talk) 08:56, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
- Hi there. I have had a look today at that list, but haven't really been posting comments since as far as I could see nobody else has been there in several days. I do not know what happened with duckduckstop but as to the articles on the list
The interim period ends today
But most articles have not been reviewed--it will apparently take many months. Of the ones still on the list that I have reviewed, I am able to find at least one-third which are worth rescuing and which I am able to rescue. We need a long continuation.If this is not agreed here, we will need to discuss it on WP:ANB. I would call the discussion "Emergency postponement of CSD X2" DGG ( talk ) 04:15, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
- My understanding was that we were still working out how to begin the vaccination process. I'm happy if we simply moved to draft space instead of deleting at the end of the two weeks, but I'm not sure if that would address your concern. Tazerdadog (talk) 22:15, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
- @S Marshall, Elinruby, Cryptic, No such user, Atlantic306, DGG, Acer, Graeme Bartlett, Mortee, Xaosflux, HyperGaruda, Ymblanter, BrightR, and Tazerdadog:
- I call "reltime" on the section title! ;-) But seriously, it does end in a few days, and although I've been active in pushing to stick with the current date (June 6) to finalize this, so I almost hate to say this, but I'd like to ask for a short postponement, for good cause. This is due to two different things that have happened in the last few days, that materially change the picture, imho:
- CXT Overwrites - this issue about CXT clobbering good articles of long-standing, was raised some time ago, and languished, but has been revived recently, and we now (finally!) have the list of overwrites we were looking for in order to attack this problem: around 200 of them. All that remains to completely solve this for good, is to go through the list, and if the entry also appears in WP:CXT/PTR, strike it. See WP:CXT/PTR/Clobbers for details.
- Asian language review - this was stalled for lack of skilled translator/proofreaders in these and other languages. In response to a suggestion by Elinruby, I made an overture a few days ago about starting a recruitment effort. Since time is so short, rather than wait for a response, I went ahead and started one at WP:CXT/PTR/By language. In just three days[a] this has started to bear fruit, with editors working on articles in Gujarati, Hindi, Hungarian, Farsi, Romanian and Arabic; with over 50 or 60 analyzed. I'm ready to ramp up the recruitment effort on Turkish, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, and more European languages (hopefully with the help of others here) but this does need some time as it's only got started literally in the last few days.
- A postponement would give us the time to save all the clobbers, and make a significant dent in the articles from Asian and other languages for which we don't have a lot of expertise. Mathglot (talk) 06:19, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
Notes
- ^ That is to say, four days less than it took Dr. Frank-N-Furter to make Rocky a man.
- My understanding is that the clobbers have all been taken care of. This leaves the Asian language articles. I'm sure that if someone with the needed language skills comes along in the future, admins would be more than happy to mass-undelete the drafts so that they could be reviewed. However, I don't see a reason to postpone in the hope that this will occur. Tazerdadog (talk) 18:45, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- Clobbers *are* taken care of, because we (two of us) have been taking care of them. Asian (and other) languages have plenty of translators td.hat could take care of them, it's not a matter of "hoping" for anything in the future, they exist now, so all we have to do is continue the effort begun only a few (5) days ago here. Going forward, this should be even more efficient, now we have the results of Cryptic's queries 19218 and 19243 created only today, and wikified here: WT:CXT/PTR/By language. We have editors working on Gujarati, Hindi, Bengali, Arabic, Romanian, and Hungarian, with more in the pipeline. This is a ton of progress in five days, and I wish it had been thought of a month ago, but it wasn't, and we are where we are. A postponement will simply allow ongoing evaluations by editors recruited less than a week ago and are delivering fast results, to continue instead of being cut off, and additional languages to be handled. Go look at WP:CXT/PTR/By language to see what has been accomplished so far, and at what speed. @Cryptic and Elinruby:. Mathglot (talk) 07:52, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
- Still need to recruit de, bg and ru. Also still very distracted by real life -- I have had one parent die and another go into hospice in the course of this project, and we have still gotten all this done, so it's not like we are dragging this out into never-never land. A majority of these articles are rescuable, esp as we bring in new editors who are not burned out by re-arranging the word order of the sentences for the 10,000 time. I think the really stellar articles have all been flagged now, but we have still found some very recently and I have said this before. Beyond the really stellar though are the many many not-bad articles and the more mediocre ones that are nonetheless easier to fix than to do over.I am in favor of an extension, personally, though as we all know I would not have started this at all if it were up to me. Many of the really bad articles were already at PNT.
- I will be flying almost all day today but will check into wikipedia tonight. Elinruby (talk) 16:19, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
- My understanding is that the clobbers have all been taken care of. This leaves the Asian language articles. I'm sure that if someone with the needed language skills comes along in the future, admins would be more than happy to mass-undelete the drafts so that they could be reviewed. However, I don't see a reason to postpone in the hope that this will occur. Tazerdadog (talk) 18:45, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- I'm involved in many other things, and get here as I can, and each time I do, I find more than can and should be rescued. There are whole classes of articles, like those of small towns or sports stadiums, which have merely been assumed to be of secondary importance and not actually looked at. If we delete now, we will be judging article by the title. It is very tempting to easily remove all the junk by removing everything, but that;'s the opposite of sensibler ,and the opposite of WP:PRESERVE/ DGG ( talk ) 09:45, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
- I found a couple today that kind of amazed me, they were so good. But let's play out the chinese fire drill. I'm afraid we're going to find out that we've all done a huge amount of work to delete 30 articles that need to be deleted and 350 whose authors will will not contribute again. Anyway. I have not touched stadiums, personally, because I suspect they will be deleted for notability so why? Ditto all these people with Olympic gold medals because I already have plenty to do without getting involved with articles that are certain to be deleted, not to mention all the argentinian actresses and whatnot.... grumble. Gonna go recruit some chinese and norwegians, because the articles are just going into some other namespace we can still send links to right? Elinruby (talk) 02:14, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
- The plan is to draftify the articles prior to deletion, but I think deletion can be postponed basically indefinitely once they are draftified Tazerdadog (talk) 02:31, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Tazerdadog: I'd like to be sure of that. This is why you lose editors, wikipedia... anyway. Am cranky at the moment. Let me get done what I can with this and then I'll have some things to say. Hopefully some intelligent and civil things. Are we really getting articles from PootisHeavy still? Elinruby (talk) 02:46, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Elinruby: Fixing pings like you just did doesn't work. Pings only work if you sign your post in the same edit and do nothing but add content. Pppery 02:49, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Elinruby: The second part statement I made above is a departure from the established consensus as I understand it. The plan which achieved consensus was to draftify, hold in draft for just long enough to check for massive clerical errors, and then delete. I floated the above statement to try to gain consensus to hold the articles in draft space for longer (or indefinitely). While it is important to get potential BLP violations and gross inaccuracies out of mainspace in a timely manner, i don't think it is nearly so important to delete the drafts, especially if salvageable to good articles are regularly being pulled out of them. Tazerdadog (talk) 03:06, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Tazerdadog: Thanks for the suggestion. I think that would help limit the potential for damage and it would alleviate some of my concerns. My assessment differs widely from what I keep reading on this board, but, hey. If anyone cares I would say that 10% of these articles are stellar and very advanced and sophisticated translations. Don't need a thing. Another 10% are full or partial translations, quite correct, of articles that do not meet en.wiki standards for references or tone but do faithfully reflect the translated article. Many of these are extremely boring unless you are doing nitty-gritty research into something like energy policy in Equatorial Guinea, but they then become important... About another 5% I cannot read at all and let's say another 10% are heavy going and require referencing one or more equivalent articles in other languages. Say 5% if anyone ever gets around to dealing with PootisHeavy. The rest are... sloppy english but accurate, unclear but wikilinked, or some other intermediate or mixed level. This has not, in my opinion, been a good use of my time and I have stopped doing any translations, personally, until we get some sanity here. The whole process, it seems to me, simultaneously assumes that translation is easy and also that it is of no value. If wikipedia does not value translation then -- argh. It just makes me to see a good organization eat its own foot this way, is all. Off to see if I can catch us a nepali speaker ;) Elinruby (talk) 03:26, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Elinruby: No Nepali speakers needed, there are no Nepali articles in the batch, afaict. Also, Pootis stopped translating following a March 23 addition to his talk page, currently at #53 on the page.
- @Tazerdadog: Whatever kind of draft/quarantine/hyperspace button you press, I plan to carry on with some of the Asian and other languages recruitment which we only recently got started on (which is going great, btw, and we could use some more help over at there if anyone wants to volunteer). I'll want to modify the editor recruitment template so that it can blue-link articles in whatever new location they reside in, so hopefully it will be a nice, systematic mapping of some sort so a dumb template can easily be coded to figure out the new location, given the old one. Just wanted to mention that, so that you can keep it in mind when you come up with the move schema. Naturally, if it's just a move to Draft namespace, then it will be an easy fix to the template.
- There is one article in Nepali. I have not invited anyone for it yet, though I did do some of the less populated languages like latvian, indonesian and polish. I have several answers (da, es, pt as I recall) and most articles passed. I will put translated templates and strike those articles shortly. And yes, I just now struck one today. Anything about 3-d modeling is notable imho and I will work on it as long as I can read it at all. Also some of the bad translations about historical documents may be fixable given the response we are getting. If either of you gets enough help/time there are quite a few es/pt/de articles that I did that I believe to be correct but cannot myself certify in terms of the translated template Elinruby (talk) 00:29, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
- @DGG: I withdraw my aspersions on the section title name. This offer valid for twenty-four hours. Mathglot (talk) 08:24, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Tazerdadog: Thanks for the suggestion. I think that would help limit the potential for damage and it would alleviate some of my concerns. My assessment differs widely from what I keep reading on this board, but, hey. If anyone cares I would say that 10% of these articles are stellar and very advanced and sophisticated translations. Don't need a thing. Another 10% are full or partial translations, quite correct, of articles that do not meet en.wiki standards for references or tone but do faithfully reflect the translated article. Many of these are extremely boring unless you are doing nitty-gritty research into something like energy policy in Equatorial Guinea, but they then become important... About another 5% I cannot read at all and let's say another 10% are heavy going and require referencing one or more equivalent articles in other languages. Say 5% if anyone ever gets around to dealing with PootisHeavy. The rest are... sloppy english but accurate, unclear but wikilinked, or some other intermediate or mixed level. This has not, in my opinion, been a good use of my time and I have stopped doing any translations, personally, until we get some sanity here. The whole process, it seems to me, simultaneously assumes that translation is easy and also that it is of no value. If wikipedia does not value translation then -- argh. It just makes me to see a good organization eat its own foot this way, is all. Off to see if I can catch us a nepali speaker ;) Elinruby (talk) 03:26, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Elinruby: The second part statement I made above is a departure from the established consensus as I understand it. The plan which achieved consensus was to draftify, hold in draft for just long enough to check for massive clerical errors, and then delete. I floated the above statement to try to gain consensus to hold the articles in draft space for longer (or indefinitely). While it is important to get potential BLP violations and gross inaccuracies out of mainspace in a timely manner, i don't think it is nearly so important to delete the drafts, especially if salvageable to good articles are regularly being pulled out of them. Tazerdadog (talk) 03:06, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
- The plan is to draftify the articles prior to deletion, but I think deletion can be postponed basically indefinitely once they are draftified Tazerdadog (talk) 02:31, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
- I found a couple today that kind of amazed me, they were so good. But let's play out the chinese fire drill. I'm afraid we're going to find out that we've all done a huge amount of work to delete 30 articles that need to be deleted and 350 whose authors will will not contribute again. Anyway. I have not touched stadiums, personally, because I suspect they will be deleted for notability so why? Ditto all these people with Olympic gold medals because I already have plenty to do without getting involved with articles that are certain to be deleted, not to mention all the argentinian actresses and whatnot.... grumble. Gonna go recruit some chinese and norwegians, because the articles are just going into some other namespace we can still send links to right? Elinruby (talk) 02:14, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
- I do not understandd what you mean by this. I assume you mean you are withdrawing the attempt to start mass deletions immediately. If not, please let me know--for I will then proceed to do what I can to prevent them--and , if possible to try to change policy so that no X- speedy criteria can ever again be suggested. The more of these translations I look at, them ore I find that should be rescued. DGG ( talk ) 23:59, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
Please assess my bold action
Greetings. Pardon me, if this request is out of scope with this page's intent; I am open to admonishment on several fronts, and in need of accurate feedback in case I have been overly bold. I happened across a thread on Jimbo Wales talk page which after reading it, did feel compelled to close, which I did. To my chagrin, I aggrieved at least one editor for having done this bold thing. I'd like to ask the keepers of this page to review my actions and give feedback if it is supportable or not. Relevant threads are here and here (permalinks). Thank you for considering this request.--John Cline (talk) 04:36, 22 August 2016 (UTC) Converted links to permalinks. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:53, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
- No comment on whether the close itself was apt: but stylistically, you were perhaps just a trifle poetical- unnecessarily so, since a close should really sum up the main points upon which there is a consensus, or otherwise. Just an opinion though. Muffled Pocketed 04:54, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- Not something like, "Go back to doing something useful FFS"? --NeilN talk to me 04:59, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- After a brief skim, the close seemed fundamentally fine. I could have missed something, but I wouldn't worry too much about it.Tazerdadog (talk) 05:06, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- "Aggrieved" is too strong a word. The discussion was a mix of (1) the usual unproductive, combative bickering, which will always be present in any discussion that is open to anyone, and (2) constructive discussion of what I feel is one of the most pressing core issues facing us today. (Strongly disagree with NeilN's "something useful" assessment, as there is nothing more useful than constructive debate of foundational issues.) It was closed apparently on the basis of the former, and I felt it should have been left open on the basis of the latter. That's it. I was and am prepared to move on rather than make a big issue of it. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:14, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- I'd also note that, for future reference, discussions on someone's user talk page should generally be left to that user to close if they want to, unless for some reason they request an outside editor close it. I'd probably be a little irritated if someone started closing discussions on my talk page. That being said, unless Jimbo objects or reopens it, we may as well leave it lie. Seraphimblade Talk to me 05:20, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- I appreciate this feedback; it is helpful and I will abide by its good counsel. It is not my normal manner to non-admin close a discussion and I don't know why I felt in this case that I should. I followed an impulse and soon began feeling like I had overstepped propriety. I am glad that I've not earned a sanction and give my assurance that I won't repeat this again. Sometimes I feel like a fool and it happens that this became one of those times; I apologize. I sincerely thank everyone who gave of their time to help me with such thoughtful advice. Best regards.--John Cline (talk) 08:09, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Jimbo has, in the past, been absent for extended periods, and has welcomed rational moderation at his talk page. There is no doubt that the discussion had gone well beyond a reasonable length, and closing such discussions on Jimbo's talk page has been the rule rather than the exception. In the case at hand, I would have suggested that it too far too long for someone to close that discussion" which had reached quite unreasonable length. 6000 words is far too long, and this went far beyond that lenient value. Collect (talk) 14:31, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- Again, I've moved on from that particular discussion, but the preceding comment is worth a response.
An arbitrary word limit is all well and good for the average everyday discussion. For discussions that have some potential for improvement on core issues, not so much. Solutions to these problems are very difficult, but they are impossible if constructive discussion of them is shut down on grounds of length. These are highly complex issues that can't be resolved in 5,000 words. The question we should ask is whether or not the discussion has completely devolved into pointless argument, and that one had not. As long as there is something constructive going on, and the talk page's owner doesn't object, no number of words is too many.
It would have been helpful to take action to end the unproductive part of the thread, but there is apparently no way to do that (there is a very wide gap between pointless bickering and actionable disruption). ―Mandruss ☎ 21:20, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- Look at it this way. Want to shut down a good discussion? Start a fight. Someone will be along shortly to nac it. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:37, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- John Cline, your first link is dead. Would you mind going into the archives and finding the thread and linking it from there? (BTW, this is why it's best to provide a perma-link from an iteration of a page rather than from the live page.) Softlavender (talk) 14:41, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- @Softlavender: Permalink to archived thread: [1] ―Mandruss ☎ 22:22, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- I'm aware of that, Mandruss. I was asking John Cline (or you if you like) to fix his link in his OP. Softlavender (talk) 00:36, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
- LOL. Or you if you like! I am converting both opening links to permalinks—to their respective original locations, for consistency. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:53, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you Mandruss for improving the links, and Softlavender for drawing my attention to this situation; I'll keep it with things I intend to remember when making future edits. Best.--John Cline (talk) 01:37, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- LOL. Or you if you like! I am converting both opening links to permalinks—to their respective original locations, for consistency. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:53, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
- I'm aware of that, Mandruss. I was asking John Cline (or you if you like) to fix his link in his OP. Softlavender (talk) 00:36, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
- @Softlavender: Permalink to archived thread: [1] ―Mandruss ☎ 22:22, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Review of AE block of Jensbest
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Jensbest (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
For Jensbest: "No detailed explanation is given for this blocking. Also on the redacted part of the talk page to the article about Donald Trump there were no wording used by me which are in anyway untrue and a violation of WP:BLP" [2] --NeilN talk to me 05:19, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
This is my second block of Jensbest. They've wiped out all the notices and warnings on their talk page. There has been extensive discussion on Talk:Donald Trump on complying with BLP on the talk page (most of it collapsed). Example: Use WP:BLPSTYLE and WP:NOTFORUM as guidelines. Stick closely to what sources say, don't post assertions like "x is a psychopath" or "x is racist", and you should be fine." This was Jensbest's post. --NeilN talk to me 05:28, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support block and recommend a topic ban. Wikipedia talk pages shouldn't be battlegrounds for personal attacks on people, particularly on the talk pages of their own biographies. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:42, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- I forgot I told him earlier he would be facing a topic ban [3] if he made this kind of edit (provided the revert as it's easier to see BLP violation) again. If sanctions are upheld but it is felt a topic ban is more appropriate I'm fine with that. --NeilN talk to me 05:44, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support block and recommend a topic ban from Donald Trump-related articles. If you look at this user's talk page history, you can see that he was warned multiple times about his editing on the Donald Trump article, and he deleted the warnings. He was:
- given two Twinkle warnings by Winkelvi, on August 13 and again on August 14;
- given a formal ArbCom/DS warning by NeilN on August 14 at 1:21;
- blocked for 48 hours by NeilN per Arbcom sanctions on August 14 at 20:59;
- given a formal warning of possible topic ban by NeilN on August 19, based on an edit on the Trump talk page that had to be redacted;
- given a formal ArbCom/DS warning by The Wordsmith on August 19;
- given a formal ArbCom/DS warning by me on August 21;
- blocked for a week by NeilN per ArbCOM discretionary sanctions on August 22.
- The user then asked to have his appeal copied to here, which NeilN has done. In my opinion this user appears to be a scofflaw who has no intention of abiding by Wikipedia guidelines. --MelanieN (talk) 05:50, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- P.S. For more insight into this editor and his understanding of Wikipedia, see his recent comments on his talk page. --MelanieN (talk) 06:05, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- Looking at the talk page, there seems literally no comprehension of what's the problem- merely reiterating the BLPvio that led to the block in the first place. This rather suggests the editor is still not getting it... Muffled Pocketed 06:17, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- P.S. For more insight into this editor and his understanding of Wikipedia, see his recent comments on his talk page. --MelanieN (talk) 06:05, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support block, and recommend topic ban. I have revoked talk page access as it is being used to continue the BLP violations. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:01, 22 August 2016 (UTC) (And a bonus point to MelanieN for use of the word "scofflaw". Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:03, 22 August 2016 (UTC))
- I suggest an indefinite topic ban, which can be appealed after six months. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:25, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support block and recommend topic ban: Based on his responses on the appeal, it seems to me that Jensbest doesn't realize or doesn't care that his commentary on Trump is in violation of policy and the attempts by multiple editors to explain it aren't working - either WP:BLPTALK, WP:NOTFORUM, WP:NOTSOAPBOX, the WP:AC/DS procedures or some combination of them. I think there is a high risk that this behaviour will recommence as soon as the block expires, so I think a topic ban will be necessary until they give assurances that they understand the policies & intend to abide by them.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 08:47, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support block and topic ban from Trump and related articles. They're here to push their POV. Sadly, this kind of thing may get worse as the election approaches, on both sides. Katietalk 11:02, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
There seems to be consensus forming around implementing a topic ban. Any thoughts as to the length of this topic ban? --NeilN talk to me 12:42, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support block and 6 month topic ban - After I saw the posts from this editor on talk:Donald Trump I headed over to Jensbest's talk page to give them a warning only to discover that they had already received several. Jenbest has demonstrated that they don't understand or accept our standards of editing and talk page participation, and that they are not able to edit Trump-related articles objectively. A six month topic ban will allow to Jenbest to make other contributions, and reflect on how they can make productive contributions to Trump articles after the heat of the election has subsided.- MrX 12:57, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- I concur as above, with one additional comment: Topic bans depend on voluntary compliance by the individual. Given Jensbest's habit of deleting and ignoring warnings, and his inability to understand what he is doing wrong, it will be necessary to explain very clearly to him what a topic ban is and what the consequences will be if he violates it. --MelanieN (talk) 14:52, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support Block and a topic ban from BLPs and American Politics (broadly construed). The editor doesn't seem to be able to keep their cool dealing with politics and refuses to understand why the edits to Donald Trump are a serious issue, which shows they either don't understand or are unwilling to follow the BLP policy. --Cameron11598 (Talk) 16:47, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support block If you can't check your political POV at the door when you enter a political article space you have no business editing there. Indefinite topic ban is the only option, with no appeal earlier than a year from enactment of the ban. Blackmane (talk) 02:27, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- Recommend indef block as NOTHERE, per observations above, by MelanieN that "In my opinion this user appears to be a scofflaw who has no intention of abiding by Wikipedia guidelines" and by FIM that "Looking at the talk page, there seems literally no comprehension of what's the problem- merely reiterating the BLPvio that led to the block in the first place. This rather suggests the editor is still not getting it". -- Softlavender (talk) 13:02, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- I'm seriously concerned with this user's prior work too, adding BLP-vios: [4], [5] and other unsourced aspersions [6], [7] (edit war), [8]; senseless removal of facts: [9]; removing cited information using bizarre edit summaries which make little or no sense: [10], [11] (is apparently on a campaign against Thierry Antinori). -- Softlavender (talk)
- Endorse block with recommended topic ban (under both BLPSE and AP) until after November. He either doesn't understand why blatantly calling a BLP subject a racist is against policy, or doesn't care. Either way he should not be editing in this topic area, and I would have banned for less. We all need to stow our personal crap when editing here. The WordsmithTalk to me 14:26, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support indefinite block per WP:NOTHERE - after some consideration I am led to believe this user is only here to push their point of view, and not to build an encyclopaedia. A topic ban simply would not work - I am led to believe it would be violated, considering the user has been blocked twice before. Zerotalk 14:38, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support three month block followed by topic indef ban for all articles related to Donald Trump. My guess is their racism tare will be done once the election is over. I don't see why they should receive an indef before being given a chance to either show they are here to edit seriously or want us to hand them the rope. I do believe, however, that given their negative obsession with Trump, an indef topic ban on him and all related articles needs to be enacted once the block expires. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 14:48, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- Endorse block - and recommend indefinite topic ban regarding Donald Trump. There is no indication this editor is capable of writing from a neutral perspective in this area. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 16:34, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- Endorse block and topic ban - With the recommendation that Jensbest not discuss the matter of the block or topic ban except to reasonably request its removal. It should be made clear that Jensbest repeating what has already been said (whether in a request to remove the topic ban or made in a comment about the situation of the block (in other words complaining)), will result in a longer block. Six months to request the removal of the topic ban sounds good. A final warning that violations of the BLP policy anywhere mean an indef block or a topic ban from all BLP articles, should it be worth the time to TB. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 22:50, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
User:Bad Dryer unblock request discussion
Bad Dryer has initiated a block appeal on his talk page and requested input here. See: User talk:Bad Dryer#Block review discussion at WP:AN. Sir Joseph (talk) 16:03, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- For reference, here is the previous block review that took place in February. Katietalk 19:08, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- unblock with the conditions stated I'll admit I've not looked closely, but A) it's been a while and B) it sounds like there is a good understanding of the issues and C) the interaction ban and topic ban should cover most of the problems. And of course, WP:ROPE... Hobit (talk) 20:30, 22 August 2016 (UTC) (also posted this to his talk page, not sure where the discussion would be held, I'd think his talk page would be ideal as he can post there, but eh...)
- Comment is an AN request the way to go? Why can't a standard unblock request be good enough? Merely having the block endorsed at AN doesn't mean it's a community block, just that the admin block was affirmed. Sir Joseph (talk) 20:35, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- As the admin who recommended a second discussion here, I was working off the second point of WP:CBAN. That, and given the extensive background (the ARBCOM case mentioned below) I figured that the case merited wider discussion - I know from offwiki experience that "time passed" does not by default equal "issue gone". Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 20:56, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- Because the AN discussion endorsing the block was so emphatic that it cannot be overriden by one administrator, though if you're happy I'm quite willing to reject the unblock request for the reasons given below. I think it's better if it comes here though. Black Kite (talk) 22:37, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- Comment Bad Dryer is an expert in goading editors who he considers not pro-Israeli enough. (Have you forgotten the User:Malik Shabazz brahooha?) If he is allowed back, then please at least topic ban him from the Israel/Palestine area, (only an interaction ban with User:Nishidani is simply not enough, IMO), Huldra (talk) 20:40, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose unblock. BD's unblock request says "I do want to return to editing in a constructive manner", but when has he edited in a constructive manner? In his block review six months ago [12], more than a dozen highly experienced editors, many of them admins, made it clear that BD is anything but a constructive editor or asset to the encyclopedia. It was a nearly unanimous ruling. Softlavender (talk) 21:49, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose Unblock but... would also accept a topic ban from the whole I/P area. This is the area where his previous issues have occurred (let's not forget this includes two indefs), and I have no confidence whatsoever that they would not recur. I am also not convinced that he is not a sock of User:NoCal100; behaviour has a number of similarities both in interests and attitude, and previous Checkusers returned "Possible". Black Kite (talk) 22:36, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose unblock (Non-administrator comment) - as I said in the previous unblock request, this user's unique awfulness manages to stand out in a topic area plagued by general awfulness. Multiple blocks for racially-charged personal attacks; one should be enough for a siteban but here we are. There are a rare few users who should never be allowed back; Bad Dryer is one of them. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 23:21, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose I can only agree with Softlavender and others. In my 8+ years here, I have never seen anything approaching the rancor of 6 months ago. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 00:20, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support unblock, at the very least WP:ROPE, or WP:SO applies here. I would be ok with an IBAN for BD and Nishidani. Sir Joseph (talk) 13:39, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose IMO the only thing "rope" does is allow the ghastly behavior to happen again. Other editors should not have to go through the things that this editor will put them through. MarnetteD|Talk 22:33, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- Comment and proposal: In the earlier WP:AN request, which I had initiated, I had opposed the indef block. My viewpoint is the same, but that argument probably isn't going to fly; so the proposed solution of unblocking them and simultaneously issuing a topic-ban from Israel-Palestine seems fine to me. I don't really see any downside to this solution. Two points about the above comments, especially by Black Kite and Ivanvector. Firstly, there was no conclusive SPI (I had initiated one myself, which went nowhere), so sockpuppet allegations are at best, unproven. The SPI here was never cleared up one way or another, and fell through the cracks. It has been a long time since then, so any CU evidence would probably be stale now. Secondly, there were no "multiple blocks for racially-charged personal attacks". There was one incident which could be deemed racially charged. The other had nothing to do with race - other than the general fact that anything dealing with Israel-Palestine does have something to do with religion or race. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 23:55, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- As I said, one should be enough, and I disagree that others were not more of the same. I have made no comment on the SPI. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:50, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
New user account called User:DocJames
I am wondering if we should move this account to decrease confusion.[13]
They seem to be editing well. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:21, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
-
- There is also a User:Docjames Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:22, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- @DocJames:, @Docjames:, would you consider a change of username to help reduce confusion? Failing that, would you be willing to change your signature to a different color/style from Doc James's which is close to the default?
- @Doc James:, could you consider creating doppelganger accounts on any other permutation of your name that would be likely to cause confusion? Tazerdadog (talk) 22:42, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- It was a redirect [14] but than someone created it. As the account is now blocked. Once that user makes a new account I can than replace it again with a redirect. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:44, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- @Doc James: I believe the question is now about User:Docjames, which is another redirect to your userspace, and another user (although long inactive user). -- The Voidwalker Discuss 22:54, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- It was a redirect [14] but than someone created it. As the account is now blocked. Once that user makes a new account I can than replace it again with a redirect. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:44, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Disambig Misspelled
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Can someone please delete Martin May (disambiguartion). It was created in error while creating Martin May (disambiguation). Thank you! -O.R.Comms 16:21, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Done 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 16:25, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- @OberRanks:You could have simply tagged it with a {{db-author}}. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 05:33, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
Question about a recreated article
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
While discussing a possible move at Talk:The Rebel Legion#Proposed move to Rebel Legion, it was discovered that the existing The Rebel Legion probably is the same as Rebel Legion deleted back in 2009 per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rebel Legion. It appears that "The Rebel Legion" was (re)created (in good faith) in December 2015 and the "The" was added to the title because an article could not be created under the old name. Anyway, this latest version was discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Rebel Legion and the result was "keep". The article has been cleaned up quite a bit by TenTonParasol, who is proposing the move, but the name has been salted. Can an admin look at this and advise on what needs to be done. I'm not sure if the edit histories of the two need to be merged and if information about the first AfD needs to be added to the new version's talk page. Thanks in advance. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:16, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
- I've lifted the salting as it's evidently moot now and so that regular editors can do the move if it is agreed upon. The topic of the previous article is indeed the same as of The Rebel Legion, but I am not seeing similarity in the text so I'd say the old history is useless. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 08:12, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks Jo-Jo Eumerus. -- Marchjuly (talk) 10:11, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
Inadvertent casting of (what some interpret as) a supervote: how to fix?
At Talk:Murder of Seth Rich there is a lively discussion about how to apply BLP to a bare mention that Wikileaks offered a $25,000 reward with no additional speculation allowed. There are multiple veteran Wikipedia editors who have offered good-faith opinion on both sides of this issue.
At Talk:Murder of Seth Rich#Administrative reminder re: BLP policy, administrator MastCell has made a declairation[15] in his official capacity as an administrator that many have interpreted as stating that one side of this policy-based content dispute is is right and the other side is wrong, and multiple editors on the side MastCell favored have pointed to this as if it settles the matter.[16][17][18][19][20]
I don't think Mastcell did anything wrong at all (please read the preceding nine words three times before dragging out the flamethrowers -- this is a good-faith discussion of a problem and how to fix it) and in no way intended to use the the admin bit is being a supervote in this way, but it is clear that some participants saw it as official admin support of their side of the content dispute.
So how do we fix this? --Guy Macon (talk) 05:48, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Best practice in general for any admin actions which seem to decide an editorial issue on any topic whatsoever is
- Don't.
- No matter how pure the motives, Wikipedia commends us to seek consensus from the editors, not an administrative ukase on any issues at all. Collect (talk) 07:26, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: My interpretation is that all that the references cited above imply is that the editors that wrote them (including myself) agree with the interpretation of our policy done by MastCell. I don´t see any reference in any of them to the fact that he is an administrator or any claim that just because the policy in question was cited by and administrator it meant that the issue was settled. We cited his comment because we feel it is a strong and valid argument. If the same comment would have been made by a regular editor I would have still have referred to it in the exact same way, and probably the rest of the editors cited above would have as well.--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 09:58, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- (1) You are the only person who has used the term "supervote", and only in or in regards to this AN filing, so I fail to see the problem. (2) MastCell's comment was not a !vote, it was a reminder of BLP policy, so again, I fail to see the problem, or why you are bringing this to AN. Softlavender (talk) 10:02, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Weasel me this... Why are "some" going to such great lengths to derail normal editing processes on this and other election-related articles? There's no basis to this concern. MastCell has been very clear and has been trying to keep the talk page focused on policy. SPECIFICO talk 11:34, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Fix? If there is a fix needed. Then start a proper content RfC with a specific content proposal (within the care required by BLP) and then people can make their policy based and reasoned arguments and it can be closed by an uninvolved as proposal enacted or not (and no consensus would likely also result in not). Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:43, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Alanscottwalker, you have raised the more important concern. We can't have an RfC that proposes to ratify a BLP violation. The proposed content is clearly such a violation. SPECIFICO talk 13:24, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Adding the phrase "WikiLeaks offered a $20,000 reward for information leading to a conviction" does not violate BLP. Not even close. "BLP" isn't a magic word that allows you to always get your way in any content dispute. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:56, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
An example that shows the problem can be found in the second !vote of the RfC at Talk:Murder of Seth Rich: " We have an official announcement above from a Wikipedia administrator acting in his administrative capacity". That's one example of someone (wrongly) thinking that Mastcell made a ruling on the content dispute. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:06, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- There is no stricture against citing policy in an RfC !vote, whether ad hoc or in reference to an admin's reminder; there is also no indication that that or any other voter took it as a "ruling". If you think there is something to "fix", would that for instance be MastCell removing all mention of his status as an administrator from his reminder? Softlavender (talk) 14:24, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
I guess I would chime in and say that there are two clearly opposing sides to this dispute, both citing policy (correctly and incorrectly), and wielding said policy as it were helpful to the content dispute, instead of working on the content. My .2 would be that it is NOT a BLP violation to simply say that wikileaks has offered a reward for information regarding the murder, but some editors are saying that this itself implies a deeper link that is inappropriate to write about. I don't know how to proceed. Mr Ernie (talk) 14:56, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, but look. As a thought experiment, Ernie: Why do you think Wikileaks offered a reward and then when questioned by a reporter why did Assange make a statement about "our sources take risks" in the context of this reward? I'm just asking for your personal take on that. It was televised, citation on the talk page so you can view it if you wish. SPECIFICO talk 15:38, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- I certainly have my opinion as to why they offered the reward, but it would be WP:OR to add my speculation to the article. Mr Ernie (talk) 16:31, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- I know you're capable of understanding my question, so your (non-)response sounds like a coy evasion. I didn't ask you to put it in the article. I asked for your evaluation of the sourced material. We constantly evaluate material from all kinds of sources as part of our responsibility to present sourced material in context, with due weight, on-topic, etc. So batter-up. What say you? SPECIFICO talk 17:47, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Ok, my personal opinion would be that Wikileaks offered a reward to either grab some headlines or somehow imply that Rich was their source for the DNC leak. But please note that this opinion, if included in our wikipedia article (which no one is trying to do), would be a violation of WP:OR, WP:V, and I'll just throw out WP:BLP since everyone else is. My personal opinion has no place in the article; only reliably sourced and notable facts do. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:15, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks, Mr Ernie. The problem is that your opinion, though it's just a suspicion and not proven and perhaps even an idle thought, is reasonable reaction. If we put the reward story in the article other readers can be expected to have the same reaction. That would be WP:SYNTH and the conclusion that many readers would draw -- their reasonable inference -- would be a BLP violation, and a serious one suggesting unethical and/or criminal behavior. SPECIFICO talk 20:48, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Ok, my personal opinion would be that Wikileaks offered a reward to either grab some headlines or somehow imply that Rich was their source for the DNC leak. But please note that this opinion, if included in our wikipedia article (which no one is trying to do), would be a violation of WP:OR, WP:V, and I'll just throw out WP:BLP since everyone else is. My personal opinion has no place in the article; only reliably sourced and notable facts do. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:15, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- I know you're capable of understanding my question, so your (non-)response sounds like a coy evasion. I didn't ask you to put it in the article. I asked for your evaluation of the sourced material. We constantly evaluate material from all kinds of sources as part of our responsibility to present sourced material in context, with due weight, on-topic, etc. So batter-up. What say you? SPECIFICO talk 17:47, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- I certainly have my opinion as to why they offered the reward, but it would be WP:OR to add my speculation to the article. Mr Ernie (talk) 16:31, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- I'll post the same thing here that I did at the RfC, where Guy Macon also posted his original comment: What MastCell did, was provide a clueful and therefore authoritative perspective on how BLP reads on the decision. !votes that fail to take BLP into account at all as many of them do, are likely to be given less weight by a clueful closer and if the closer doesn't take BLP into account, the close will be liable to be overturned (not necessarily overturned, but open to be overturned). Other clueful admins have also weighed in on how BLP applies to this issue, see here, and came to different conclusions about how BLP applies (but directly addressed BLP) so anyone who takes MastCell's view as The Only Possible View is out to lunch. Jytdog (talk) 19:36, 25 August 2016 (UTC) ((add clarification since there is apparent confusion about what I meant Jytdog (talk) 20:25, 25 August 2016 (UTC))
- This being AN, I would at this time like to formally request a closer or closers who is an uninvolved admin with a lot of experience closing contentious RfCs. If possible, more than one: a little extra time spent now coming up with two or three admins who agree on what to exclude and who carefully word the closing statement will avoid a boatload of time later as the losing side tries to relitigate the RfC. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:45, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- I presume you mean for a month from now. The RfC was just opened yesterday. Softlavender (talk) 19:51, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- I think an experienced admin should close it sooner than later to prevent disruption, as I doubt we'll get any new insight. Maybe not today, but probably not after a month. Per WP:RFC the process doesn't have to run the full 30 days. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:05, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- I note the conspicuous absence of admins commenting here; there is nothing actionable in the OP. And there is no reason to close the RfC early. The question is difficult and the more clueful input that is given, the better. Jytdog (talk) 20:27, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Well, having looked at that RfC, it's rather likely to be useless probably because the proposal is not in the form to propose the precise words and source(s): "example"[cite]. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:37, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- I note the conspicuous absence of admins commenting here; there is nothing actionable in the OP. And there is no reason to close the RfC early. The question is difficult and the more clueful input that is given, the better. Jytdog (talk) 20:27, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- I think an experienced admin should close it sooner than later to prevent disruption, as I doubt we'll get any new insight. Maybe not today, but probably not after a month. Per WP:RFC the process doesn't have to run the full 30 days. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:05, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- I presume you mean for a month from now. The RfC was just opened yesterday. Softlavender (talk) 19:51, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Re "there is nothing actionable in the OP", sure there is. You could tell the admin to be more careful in his wording (if you thought his wording was not careful enough, which I definitely do not). You could correct those editors who incorrectly interpreted the admin's comments as a supervote. You could put together a panel of three rock-solid uninvolved admins to close and RfC that will be challenged (see the attempts to relitigate the recent AfD). You could re-affirm the basic principle that when several experience editors conclude that saying that Wikileaks offered a $25,000 reward is not, in itself, a BLP violation while several other experienced editors conclude that saying that Wikileaks offered a $25,000 reward is, in itself, a BLP violation, that no admin should, in his official capacity, state or even imply that one side is right and the other wrong but should instead speak as an ordinary editor. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:29, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- You are misreading what MastCell wrote at the Talk page, and if you had questions you should have asked MastCell directly, as Mr. Ernie did; MastCell's response to Mr Ernie here is quite clear. This is drama that no admins are taking up. It was just unwise, Guy. Jytdog (talk) 01:04, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Hidden page
Ok, so I was going through some old edit histories (as I am sometimes wont to do : ) - and I came across this.
Seems innocuous at first glance.
However, read the discussion and then try to click on the link of the redirect in question.
Surprised?
It seems that C: is now the interwiki link for the Commons. (See this discussion.)
So just for housekeeping, I thought I'd speedy the redirect, as it clearly doesn't now get anyone anywhere (and so isn't aiding navigation in any way).
But here's the thing... I can't actually get to that redirect : )
I think we have a page that is trapped in the system which can't be accessed through typical means.
Now it shouldn't be a big deal, as I doubt the commons will ever need that page, but it's interesting enough that I wanted to share with all of you : )
Oh, and going through allpages, I found the following as well (though they do not appear to have this issue):
- C:
- C:/Program Files
- C:KND
- C:N ratio
- C:Real
- C:\
- C:\Program Files
- C:\WINDOWS
- C: The Contra Adventure
- C: The Money of Soul and Possibility Control
(And now I'll wait as someone will come along to tell me how it's actually simple to get to, "like this" : ) - jc37 12:38, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Jc37, it's actually simple to get to if you know how to use the API to get these pages; there was an incident some time back in which the software momentarily permitted the creation of an article beginning with "de:", which of course quickly became inaccessible, undeleteable, and unmoveable, so we had to wait until someone familiar with API-based work was able to handle it. I'm not one of those someones. Nyttend (talk) 13:33, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- <applause> Congratulations on having tea and no tea at the same time! : ) - jc37 13:40, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- [edit conflict with the applause] PS, I thought perhaps I'd get it by going through John Vandenberg's contributions for January 2014 (he sent it to RFD, so presumably he added the RFD template to the page), but it's not there. Deleted contributions? There's a relevant line:
So the revision has been deleted. But click the (diff) link, and you get a message I've never seen before, MediaWiki:Undeleterevision-missing. Or go to Special:Undelete/C:WPCATSUP, and you discover that there are no deleted revisions in the database. I'm guessing that the process of turning C: into a crosswiki prefix caused all revisions of all C: pages to be deleted and then "really" deleted those revisions entirely. You know how computer experts can often recover files that you've deleted from your hard drive, but it's much harder (or impossible?) to recover old revisions of files if you've saved a newer revision on top of it. I think this is the same situation: causing "C:" to be an entirely different kind of topic caused the wholesale destruction of everything previously at that location, but since the deletion logs and the stuff that appears at Special:Undelete is probably stored separately, there's no technical reason that it can't appear there: the software can tell that a page previously existed at this title, and it knows that John Vandenberg made an edit to it, but there's no live revision of such a page, so it should be listed in Special:Deletedcontributions. So overall, it's the bizarre effect of a rare developer intervention in the revision database. Nyttend (talk) 13:47, 25 August 2016 (UTC)(change visibility) 00:26, 11 January 2014 (diff | deletion log | view) . . C:WPCATSUP (Listed for discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2014 January 11#C:WPCATSUP. (TW))
- PPS, </applause>. jc37, you ruined the HTML validation by not closing your tag :-) Nyttend (talk) 13:51, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Please consider it ongoing applause : )
- And yes, my guess was and is that this may very well require someone with that magical un-knowable thing called shell access to resolve : ) - jc37 13:59, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
If nobody can get to it, why does it need to be deleted? --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:32, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sure it actually exists. For example, c:ThisIsOnlyATest. You can create any link to commons you want, and it doesn't appear to check to see if it exists before making it a blue link. Kbdank71 16:06, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- The redirect was revisited in a following month of 2014 and it was deleted, see Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2014_March_5#C:WPCATSUP. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 16:30, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Admin attention is required
again for Wikipedia:Files for discussion#Old discussions, which has a ~500 item backlog dating back to May. Most of these are very easy closures; any help is appreciated! -FASTILY 18:26, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- User:Evad37/FFDcloser is a good userscript for the people who find all the manual template adding and removing tedious. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 13:11, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Involved action by admin Ritchie333 on Main Page
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please see WT:DYK#Error on Main Page for 12 hours, after involved admin reverted it ion the main page to the wrong version!. Basically, user:Ritchie333 has reverted the DYK section on the Main Page back to a hook he had suggested in the first place, about an article he brought to GA status. The hook was corrected by user:Gatoclass, but Ritchie333 objected to the correction and reverted it without prior discussion, violating WP:INVOLVED badly. First discussion with him doesn't seem to indicate that he understands the problem. Fram (talk) 20:18, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Isn't bold editing how the main page's content pages (noticeably ITN) are typically handled? My impression was that most people don't care about involvement there. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 20:24, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Please, you guys (/gals), is this really
ANIAN-worthy? Can you just take 24 hours and talk about it again over at Talk:DYK? EEng 20:27, 25 August 2016 (UTC) - Wow. An ontological debate over the exact meaning of "removed their boobs" vs "carried fake breasts"? I'm not sure we've even established that in Devon, or even Cornwall, breasts, whether fake or not, are seen as "a distraction to drivers." And, who knows, even EngVar might have motivated Ritchie here. The Main Page can be such a dangerous place, these days. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:42, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- The problem for here is not with the meaning of the hook (and let's be clear, removed vs carried is quite different), but with the involvement (it wasa hook he had nominated in the first place, not some random hook). 22:21, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- If they mean the same thing, any involvement is irrelevant. So is the meaning relevant, or not?. I trust you've asked Ritchie to fully explain his motivation before inviting him here. And that his explanation was somehow lacking. Editors who take articles to GA status are sometimes regarded as subject matter experts, allegedly. Perhaps we ought to look at "wearing" vs "carrying"? Or maybe even "timebomb"? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:41, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- I didn't know that the standards at AN had dropped as far as they have at DYK. Since when did "they removed X" mean the same as "they carried X"? And GA is a joke (someone please explain to me how this whole breast cancer episode is an important aspect of the history (or, for crying out loud, the "legacy") of this bridge in the first place?) and writing a GA doesn't make anyone an expert on the subject or a master of accuracy. Fram (talk) 09:46, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Having removed your false breasts, I think you'll find you can carry them in your hand, over your shoulders or even on top of your head. But great to see Ritchie making joke GAs as well as forcing the public to read his lies at DYK. Perhaps he could throw his tools into the Tamar for us. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:02, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Please join him, as all you seem to be wanting to do is defend him no matter what. If you don't know the difference between "you can" and "they have", then you shouldn't bother writing or defending DYKs and GAs. We should never present something as "this happened" on the main page (or in articles) when all we know is "this may have happened". That this happens occasionally can't be prevented, but if someone then checks your edit and corrects it, then why would you revert back to the OR version (or defend such action)? Fram (talk) 10:36, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for those kind words of encouragement. But I see you're now changing tack, away from the "removed" vs "carried" distinction, to whether or not anything like that actually happened. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:47, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- We know that they removed them, we don't know whether they carried them and have nothing to indicate that they did, but the hook stated it as if it was a clear and sourced fact. No changing of tack here, just not being used to someone who likes to misunderstand everything only to defend a wikifriend. Fram (talk) 11:42, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for the personal attack."Good luck" at ArbCom. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:40, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- We know that they removed them, we don't know whether they carried them and have nothing to indicate that they did, but the hook stated it as if it was a clear and sourced fact. No changing of tack here, just not being used to someone who likes to misunderstand everything only to defend a wikifriend. Fram (talk) 11:42, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for those kind words of encouragement. But I see you're now changing tack, away from the "removed" vs "carried" distinction, to whether or not anything like that actually happened. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:47, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Please join him, as all you seem to be wanting to do is defend him no matter what. If you don't know the difference between "you can" and "they have", then you shouldn't bother writing or defending DYKs and GAs. We should never present something as "this happened" on the main page (or in articles) when all we know is "this may have happened". That this happens occasionally can't be prevented, but if someone then checks your edit and corrects it, then why would you revert back to the OR version (or defend such action)? Fram (talk) 10:36, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Having removed your false breasts, I think you'll find you can carry them in your hand, over your shoulders or even on top of your head. But great to see Ritchie making joke GAs as well as forcing the public to read his lies at DYK. Perhaps he could throw his tools into the Tamar for us. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:02, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I didn't know that the standards at AN had dropped as far as they have at DYK. Since when did "they removed X" mean the same as "they carried X"? And GA is a joke (someone please explain to me how this whole breast cancer episode is an important aspect of the history (or, for crying out loud, the "legacy") of this bridge in the first place?) and writing a GA doesn't make anyone an expert on the subject or a master of accuracy. Fram (talk) 09:46, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- If they mean the same thing, any involvement is irrelevant. So is the meaning relevant, or not?. I trust you've asked Ritchie to fully explain his motivation before inviting him here. And that his explanation was somehow lacking. Editors who take articles to GA status are sometimes regarded as subject matter experts, allegedly. Perhaps we ought to look at "wearing" vs "carrying"? Or maybe even "timebomb"? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:41, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- The problem for here is not with the meaning of the hook (and let's be clear, removed vs carried is quite different), but with the involvement (it wasa hook he had nominated in the first place, not some random hook). 22:21, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that this is something of a storm in a teacup: neither of the hooks was very good. Ritchie333 is probably in line for a WP:TROUT for re-adding a mistake to the main page, and Gatoclass might also warrant one for what I think is dubious grammar in their corrected version of the hook. But I share Jo-Jo's understanding that in general it's OK for admins to jump in and adjust stuff they have a connection to on the main page in the interest of quickly fixing errors here. When I've done so I, from memory, have always posted a note at WP:ERRORS for transparency. But the short version is that everyone seems to have been acting in good faith. Nick-D (talk) 22:57, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- The problem is, they re-added a mistake using their administrator status - normal editors could not have made an obvious error visible on the main page for 12 hours. While its fine for admins to jump in and fix the main page, its *not* fine for another admin to then revert it keeping the error visible. That is trout-worthy. What pushes this over into 'bring out the tuna' is that the admin was deeply involved in the mistake to start with. Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:50, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I don't think the error was "obvious." I think that's the main reason we've ended up here. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:55, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- It is once it had already been pointed out. This didnt happen out of the blue. But this is a common issue with DYK hook wordings. I dont think any serious outcome needs to come from this, but it was two issues that caused this. First using administrator status in what is effectively a content dispute, secondly, using their administrator status in a content dispute in which they were involved. Both of which are explicitly forbidden. You could go with the first being a good faith - its the nature of the main page its only editable by admins, but the second is in no way an unforseeable or good faith thing. The only excuse in the us of admin status where involved is 'would any other admin have taken the same actions?' and this in no way comes close to that, being a trivial dispute over wording. Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:59, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- That's not a totally unfair appraisal. But I'm glad that you've used the word trivial. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:30, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Even if he had been right content-wise, he should have left the reversal to someone else (or he could have pulled the hook and discussed things). That the error may have been trivial (well, a hook saying the exact opposite of what happened as far as we know isn't really trivial) is hardly an excuse for allowing a clearly involved admin action. If it's your hook, your article, then you don't edit the main page to get your preferred version there, as that is something other editores can't do. Fram (talk) 09:46, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I think we'll just have to disagree here about your interpretation of the term "exact opposite". An involved admin action is indeed a mistake. I think you'd be fully justified in leaving a stern note on Ritchie's Talk Page, whether you're a "prolific contributor" over there or not. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:27, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- He doesn't care about the involved part, as is clear from his one response at WT:DYK and his absence here. Fram (talk) 10:37, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I think that imputation is unnecessary and unjustified. But then you've already given me my marching orders, so I'll have to leave it to others. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:49, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- He doesn't care about the involved part, as is clear from his one response at WT:DYK and his absence here. Fram (talk) 10:37, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I think we'll just have to disagree here about your interpretation of the term "exact opposite". An involved admin action is indeed a mistake. I think you'd be fully justified in leaving a stern note on Ritchie's Talk Page, whether you're a "prolific contributor" over there or not. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:27, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Even if he had been right content-wise, he should have left the reversal to someone else (or he could have pulled the hook and discussed things). That the error may have been trivial (well, a hook saying the exact opposite of what happened as far as we know isn't really trivial) is hardly an excuse for allowing a clearly involved admin action. If it's your hook, your article, then you don't edit the main page to get your preferred version there, as that is something other editores can't do. Fram (talk) 09:46, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- That's not a totally unfair appraisal. But I'm glad that you've used the word trivial. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:30, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- It is once it had already been pointed out. This didnt happen out of the blue. But this is a common issue with DYK hook wordings. I dont think any serious outcome needs to come from this, but it was two issues that caused this. First using administrator status in what is effectively a content dispute, secondly, using their administrator status in a content dispute in which they were involved. Both of which are explicitly forbidden. You could go with the first being a good faith - its the nature of the main page its only editable by admins, but the second is in no way an unforseeable or good faith thing. The only excuse in the us of admin status where involved is 'would any other admin have taken the same actions?' and this in no way comes close to that, being a trivial dispute over wording. Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:59, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I don't think the error was "obvious." I think that's the main reason we've ended up here. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:55, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- The problem is, they re-added a mistake using their administrator status - normal editors could not have made an obvious error visible on the main page for 12 hours. While its fine for admins to jump in and fix the main page, its *not* fine for another admin to then revert it keeping the error visible. That is trout-worthy. What pushes this over into 'bring out the tuna' is that the admin was deeply involved in the mistake to start with. Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:50, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
I notice that User:Ritchie333 has been quite active since this section started, but hasn't responded to the WP:INVOLVED allegations here or elsewhere. This of course violates WP:ADMINACCT. (I also note that Martinevans123, the most active defender of Ritchie333 here, is also the most prolific editor at his talk page; in general, it is better if neutral editors look at these problems, in my opinion). Fram (talk) 09:55, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- By number of edits or number of bites? Yes, I'm always over there telling him he's useless. A neutral appraisal is fine by me. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:07, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Considering the sort of argy-bargy that goes on on the mainpage sections (and is currently under investigation at ArbCom), I don't see this as a serious breach, if one at all. The worst of it is that that ridiculous piece of trivia is even in the Tamar Bridge article at all. Softlavender (talk) 10:02, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- How can this not be a breach of WP:INVOLVED? Can I now add any hook I want from any article I wrote to the Main Page at all times, even when it already has been corrected by another admin? I get the impression that most admins here have simply given up on the main page (and/or GA), even though it is the most visible part of Wikipedia. Fram (talk) 10:36, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Fram, what exactly do you want here? A punitive block? A de-sysop? An ArbCom trial? A stern warning? Here is the sequence of events: Ritchie changed the hook back to the way it had been approved and to what to him was the more correct version, with the edit summary "rvt back to what was in prep and reviewed, if you want to change the hook, pull it and add a note on WT:DYK": [21] (apparently figuring that making the fix was quicker than listing it on Errors and waiting for someone else to fix it). He then notified Gatoclass on DYK talk, saying "I have reverted your undiscussed change to the Tamar Bridge back to what was reviewed and put in prep. Using 'boobs' trivialises breast cancer, and carrying fake breasts across the bridge does not imply they wore them. (I also preferred the non-breast related hook, but that's consensus for you...) If you were uncertain about the factual accuracy of the hook, you could have pulled it from queue." [22]. When BlueMoonset posted on his talk page that Gatoclass had changed the hook, Ritchie explained that he disagreed with the change but that if it was a serious problem the hook should be pulled: [23]. Speaking for myself, as a woman I find it offensive that the word "boobs" was even on the main page, much less in reference to breast cancer. Softlavender (talk) 11:35, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- If he doesn't show any understanding of how his actions violated INVOLVED (and by now ADMINACCT), then yes, a desysop would be best, or a topic ban from DYK. I am not defending the replacement hook, which may have had its own problems. Ritchie333 should have listed the hook at ERRORS or at WT:DYK, or pulled it and opened a discussion at WT:DYK (pulling it would technically also breach INVOLVED, but temporarily removing a contentious hook from the Main Page is much less of a problem than readding your own contentious hook). His reply at my section at WT:DYK indicates that he understands neither the problem with the hook nor with his actions, and since he hasn't discussed these things since, I have no reason to assume this has changed. Not understanding how this hook was wrong dissqualifies him from work at DYK: not understanding how his actions were a breach of INVOLVED warrants a desysop. At the moment, all we have is evidence of making these errors and no indication at all of understanding how they were errors, hence no reasonable assurance that they won't happen again. Fram (talk) 11:51, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- "Not understanding how this hook was wrong dissqualifies him from work at DYK" -- well, to Ritchie it wasn't wrong, and it wasn't directly refuted by the sources, and it was a definite improvement over the offensive replacement. Admins inadvertently put incorrect stuff on the main page all the time, and there is no actual proof that Ritchie's version was wrong. Likewise, if you're going to ban Ritchie from DYK for re-wording an offensive hook to something that wasn't verifiably incorrect, I'd say you should moreso ban Gatoclass for changing the hook to add an offensive misogynistic term, and in relation to breast cancer no less. I agree with Nick-D above -- Ritchie did exactly what Nick-D says he himself has done many times -- change a main-page hook he was involved with. And as Nick notes, everyone was acting in good faith. Are we going to put Gatoclass on trial here for not understanding the misogyny of using the word "boobs" on the main page, especially in relation to breast cancer? If not, then there's no reason to put Ritchie on trial for doing the same thing that Nick-D says he himself has done several times. Softlavender (talk) 12:09, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Looking at this, it can't have been "many times" for Nick-D, most are replies to WP:ERRORS, and one is an action he self-reverts. He is free to indicate which ones were comparable to Ritchie333s action. His only edit to the page this year doesn't change the meaning of the hook[24]. The one before that, Template:Did you know nominations/Gloria Lim was not by him, so not an involved action. Which means that his most recent comparable action, if any, was from January 2014 or earlier... As for this instance: a hook which isn't supported by the sources is wrong, that is the basic rule of DYK. What he did was WP:OR. That to him it wasn't wrong is one of the problems, and one of the reasons he should stop doing DYK work (certainly of this kind, nominating articles is probably still acceptable). That you consider a wrong hook an improvement over a mildly offensive one is your view, having neither (i.e. pulling it) was in any case a lot better. But feel free to start a section about Gatoclass if you feel so strongly about it. This is about Ritchie's actions, and his lack of response to it. Fram (talk) 12:40, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Softlavender, the misogyny of using "boobs": have you even looked at the source for all this? Walkers remove their boobs to cross the Tamar[25] is the actual title of the source for the hook (and with such a title, I don't understand how the hook was ever proposed or accepted anyway). Blaming Gatoclass for using the same word as the source seems inappropriate. Fram (talk) 07:37, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- So Fram, now you have taken this to ArbCom, I see: [26]. Unless Ritchie has repeatedly created problems at DYK, I find this action baffling. Softlavender (talk) 12:34, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
-
- No, not at all, unless Ritchie has repeatedly caused problems at DYK. You mentioned his name three times in that report. Softlavender (talk) 13:01, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Archive 122#New Day hook removed from Queue 5, where Ritchie333 suggested a nonsensical hook and used the same "it's only your opinion that it's wrong" defense (but didn't make involved admin edits luckily). Fram (talk) 07:37, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Looking at this, it can't have been "many times" for Nick-D, most are replies to WP:ERRORS, and one is an action he self-reverts. He is free to indicate which ones were comparable to Ritchie333s action. His only edit to the page this year doesn't change the meaning of the hook[24]. The one before that, Template:Did you know nominations/Gloria Lim was not by him, so not an involved action. Which means that his most recent comparable action, if any, was from January 2014 or earlier... As for this instance: a hook which isn't supported by the sources is wrong, that is the basic rule of DYK. What he did was WP:OR. That to him it wasn't wrong is one of the problems, and one of the reasons he should stop doing DYK work (certainly of this kind, nominating articles is probably still acceptable). That you consider a wrong hook an improvement over a mildly offensive one is your view, having neither (i.e. pulling it) was in any case a lot better. But feel free to start a section about Gatoclass if you feel so strongly about it. This is about Ritchie's actions, and his lack of response to it. Fram (talk) 12:40, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- "Not understanding how this hook was wrong dissqualifies him from work at DYK" -- well, to Ritchie it wasn't wrong, and it wasn't directly refuted by the sources, and it was a definite improvement over the offensive replacement. Admins inadvertently put incorrect stuff on the main page all the time, and there is no actual proof that Ritchie's version was wrong. Likewise, if you're going to ban Ritchie from DYK for re-wording an offensive hook to something that wasn't verifiably incorrect, I'd say you should moreso ban Gatoclass for changing the hook to add an offensive misogynistic term, and in relation to breast cancer no less. I agree with Nick-D above -- Ritchie did exactly what Nick-D says he himself has done many times -- change a main-page hook he was involved with. And as Nick notes, everyone was acting in good faith. Are we going to put Gatoclass on trial here for not understanding the misogyny of using the word "boobs" on the main page, especially in relation to breast cancer? If not, then there's no reason to put Ritchie on trial for doing the same thing that Nick-D says he himself has done several times. Softlavender (talk) 12:09, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- If he doesn't show any understanding of how his actions violated INVOLVED (and by now ADMINACCT), then yes, a desysop would be best, or a topic ban from DYK. I am not defending the replacement hook, which may have had its own problems. Ritchie333 should have listed the hook at ERRORS or at WT:DYK, or pulled it and opened a discussion at WT:DYK (pulling it would technically also breach INVOLVED, but temporarily removing a contentious hook from the Main Page is much less of a problem than readding your own contentious hook). His reply at my section at WT:DYK indicates that he understands neither the problem with the hook nor with his actions, and since he hasn't discussed these things since, I have no reason to assume this has changed. Not understanding how this hook was wrong dissqualifies him from work at DYK: not understanding how his actions were a breach of INVOLVED warrants a desysop. At the moment, all we have is evidence of making these errors and no indication at all of understanding how they were errors, hence no reasonable assurance that they won't happen again. Fram (talk) 11:51, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Fram, what exactly do you want here? A punitive block? A de-sysop? An ArbCom trial? A stern warning? Here is the sequence of events: Ritchie changed the hook back to the way it had been approved and to what to him was the more correct version, with the edit summary "rvt back to what was in prep and reviewed, if you want to change the hook, pull it and add a note on WT:DYK": [21] (apparently figuring that making the fix was quicker than listing it on Errors and waiting for someone else to fix it). He then notified Gatoclass on DYK talk, saying "I have reverted your undiscussed change to the Tamar Bridge back to what was reviewed and put in prep. Using 'boobs' trivialises breast cancer, and carrying fake breasts across the bridge does not imply they wore them. (I also preferred the non-breast related hook, but that's consensus for you...) If you were uncertain about the factual accuracy of the hook, you could have pulled it from queue." [22]. When BlueMoonset posted on his talk page that Gatoclass had changed the hook, Ritchie explained that he disagreed with the change but that if it was a serious problem the hook should be pulled: [23]. Speaking for myself, as a woman I find it offensive that the word "boobs" was even on the main page, much less in reference to breast cancer. Softlavender (talk) 11:35, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- How can this not be a breach of WP:INVOLVED? Can I now add any hook I want from any article I wrote to the Main Page at all times, even when it already has been corrected by another admin? I get the impression that most admins here have simply given up on the main page (and/or GA), even though it is the most visible part of Wikipedia. Fram (talk) 10:36, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Proof? Seems evident that Ritchie's hook was wrong in the DYK sense, as the source did not say they carried them, and a further source since put on the DYKTALK page appears to have an image of them on the bridge not carrying anything (which makes sense, as the point was to not have the costumes on the bridge, so, the hook was not only unsupported but it may have actively misrepresented the march). Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:30, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
The phrasing "removed their boobs" on the mainpage, in the context of breast cancer awareness, was offensive and created a risk of bringing the project into disrepute, so its removal is defensible as an emergency action. Newyorkbrad (talk) 08:26, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- @NYB, "Removed their boobs" is the wording of the actual source so that, at least, is defensible. The (ridiculously minor) issue is whether the fact should have been mentioned in the article at all (definitely not) and whether "removed" can be assumed to mean "carried" (probably yes). ‑ Iridescent 08:36, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- The phrasing "removing their boobs" came right from the source (provided by Ritchie333), like I indicated above; he didn't remove the phrase because of supposed offensiveness but because it wasn't the hook he had proposed, and putting incorrect information on the main page is not likely to bring the project into disrepute or what? Your priorities seem to be completely wrong here. Fram (talk) 08:41, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- That phrasing did not belong on our mainpage regardless of who else might have used it. I agree that it might have been better to have dispensed with this factoid altogether. Newyorkbrad (talk) 08:47, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- Brad, the organisation in question explicitly uses the term "boob" exclusively in their own publicity materials (indeed, the event in question was actually called "Boob Walk"). Avoiding potential offensiveness is laudable, but when you're endorsing actively avoiding the terminology the campaigners themselves prefer because you personally disapprove of it, it's well over the "inappropriate" line. I may not be a fan of Fram's shoot-em-all approach to curating DYK, but in this instance he's completely correct. ‑ Iridescent 12:41, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- As much as I agree with you Brad, that really is beside the point, here. (That is a MAINPAGE talk discussion and knowing the history there, that would be a long discussion with a most uncertain outcome to actually keep it off the mainpage -- the group wants notice obviously, but it seems they don't mean to be offensive - we don't have to use their words, but there would be many editors who would defiantly 'notcensored' that.) The issue here, though, is not that --it is a matter concerning discussion of a factually wrong, unsupported, misrepresentation and INVOLVED edits to the main page. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:18, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- Indeed, the phrasing did not belong on the front page. First, while the organization uses the phrase "Boob Walk", Wikipedia should not write from the perspective of a given organization. Second, in the secondary source that used the phrase "removing their boobs", the phrase was used to sensationalize the story several lines down was the factual description of what happened: "Before crossing into Plymouth, the group removed their giant breast costumes." So, Ritchie333 was correct in removing an inappropriate hook but wrong in restoring a factually incorrect hook. It was a mistake that no one correctly analyzed until Newyorkbrad. Mistakes will happen and the interesting ones are not a simple as they appear.--I am One of Many (talk) 06:19, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Brad, the organisation in question explicitly uses the term "boob" exclusively in their own publicity materials (indeed, the event in question was actually called "Boob Walk"). Avoiding potential offensiveness is laudable, but when you're endorsing actively avoiding the terminology the campaigners themselves prefer because you personally disapprove of it, it's well over the "inappropriate" line. I may not be a fan of Fram's shoot-em-all approach to curating DYK, but in this instance he's completely correct. ‑ Iridescent 12:41, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- That phrasing did not belong on our mainpage regardless of who else might have used it. I agree that it might have been better to have dispensed with this factoid altogether. Newyorkbrad (talk) 08:47, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- The hook was "carried fake breasts pending a walk over the Tamar Bridge"? Why do you think that was "factually incorrect"? Martinevans123 (talk) 08:39, 28 August 2016 (UTC) (That photo in the Herald Express was taken on the south side of the A38, on that patch of grass just behind the Tamar Bridge Ferry building, looking west over into Saltash, wasn't it).
- Let's just get the record right. Martinevans, that was not the hook, [27] "pending" and other things were edited out and edited in by Ritchie through protection and that was unsupported by the source. Moreover, the costumes were not suppose to be even seen on the bridge, and another image (linked by Iridecent and at DYKTalk) appears to show the group on the bridge carrying nothing. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:31, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, :Alanscottwalker, I thought this discussion had been closed as "moot"? So Ritchie333 actually made multiple edits to try and achieve factual accuracy? Maybe we should look at all the diffs? As regards that other image, how do we know when it was taken? Did the party walk in just one direction, or did they walk westwards into Saltash and then back eastwards, into Plymouth, after removing the costumes? Difficult to say, isn't it without, say, emailing one of the organisers for clarification? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:45, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Factual inaccuracy, actually. And no, we are not to be doing OR. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:58, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- So could you please explain to us how it's possible to tell, from the two sources available, that any of the hooks were factually inaccurate? We might not be doing OR to edit any article, but curiosity might still get the better of us, just to establish the facts, eh? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:20, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Again? All right. The hook misrepresents the source it used -- the source does not say they carried anything "over" the bridge, so it is factually inaccurate -- misrepresentation of a source is factual inaccuracy. The additional evidence also shows the costumes not carried "over the Tamar Bridge", which coincides with the sourced reason for removing them before the bridge: the costumes were not to cause a distraction for drivers on the bridge. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:43, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- How do we know they walked just one way? Sorry, but I can't find those diffs for ""pending" and other things were edited out and edited in by Ritchie through protection." This wasn't mentioned by User:Fram. Thanks Martinevans123 (talk) 16:55, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- What difference would walking one way make, are you suggesting they crossed the bridge carrying (totally unsourced) and then dropped the costumes and walked back over the bridge away from the costumes? That makes no sense and is contrary to the source that they removed them before the bridge. Or are you suggesting they walked across without the costumes, someone drove the costumes across the bridge (again unsourced) and they picked them up to carry them back across the bridge. Again, that makes no sense. The edit diffs have been provided, and Fram says the edit was to the main page, which is an edit through protection that only an admin can make. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:14, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- How do we know they walked just one way? Sorry, but I can't find those diffs for ""pending" and other things were edited out and edited in by Ritchie through protection." This wasn't mentioned by User:Fram. Thanks Martinevans123 (talk) 16:55, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Again? All right. The hook misrepresents the source it used -- the source does not say they carried anything "over" the bridge, so it is factually inaccurate -- misrepresentation of a source is factual inaccuracy. The additional evidence also shows the costumes not carried "over the Tamar Bridge", which coincides with the sourced reason for removing them before the bridge: the costumes were not to cause a distraction for drivers on the bridge. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:43, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- So could you please explain to us how it's possible to tell, from the two sources available, that any of the hooks were factually inaccurate? We might not be doing OR to edit any article, but curiosity might still get the better of us, just to establish the facts, eh? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:20, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Factual inaccuracy, actually. And no, we are not to be doing OR. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:58, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
Ahem, closed means closed. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 17:36, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
Deceitful PRODs
I was patrolling the expired PRODs and found a user that is using a deceitful practice to ensure the article's they PROD are deleted. Sixth of March has been adding PRODs to articles. Then they comment out the PROD so it does not show up when someone views the article. They then come back 7 days later and remove the comment so it does up and gets deleted. I have gone back to 7 July and found instances of this practice. I have restored many that were deleted this way. I figured it out after deleting two articles. On the third article there were intervening edits and reverts by Sixth of March. I started to look to see if the ip had removed the PROD and if it had been restored. I looked at intervening edits, where it hasn't been removed but it wasn't showing up either. Initially I assumed the best and thought it was a mistake. I decided the best course was to reset the click on the PROD. Then I looked at the fourth and found the same thing. I also went back and looked at the two I had deleted and found the same thing. I restored those two, declined all 4 PRODs and warned Sixth of March if I saw this ever happen again that I would block them. I then started looking through contributions and deleted edits and found more of the same. This isn't an isolated event. My main reason to bring this here it's to notify other admins to be on the look out for this tactic. -- GB fan 23:09, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- The editor has also commented out project banners on the talkpages of the affected artices (see Talk:Damdaming Bayan - restored now). GermanJoe (talk) 23:49, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- After looking some more I think the earliest article that was deleted this way was DYGB. It was initially PRODd 22 May with the PROD commented out 1 minute after the PROD. The comment tags were removed 28 May. -- GB fan 23:52, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- We kind of duplicated work, I looked thru his deleted contribs and agree it started around 22 May. I'm going thru his delete contribs and restoring any page where this was done. It looks like you might be doing the same. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:00, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I restored
threenine commented out banners.--S Philbrick(Talk) 00:04, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Sixth of March also added a prod here which was legitimate, but when it was removed a day later, they restored it an hour later here, in violation of policy. It was removed again, so it did not get deleted, but that second addition was clearly contrary to policy.--S Philbrick(Talk) 00:12, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
I think I restored or declined 27 PRODd articles. -- GB fan 00:14, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Wow. Devious. Is there any possible way to AGF with this? Seems like an obvious attempt at WP:GAMING or otherwise intentional manipulation of a process. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 00:22, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I think it is reasonable to AGF the restoration of a removed Prod, not all new editors know the rule that you cannot restore it, but I'm awaiting an explanation of how commenting out project banner and Prods are justifiable.--S Philbrick(Talk) 00:27, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I believe I've restored all the PRODs where this trick was used. Agree with GB fan that it seemed to have started around 22 May, so I went thru every PROD he made between then and now. A few were done legitimately, but I restored 18 pages and their talk pages. Anyway, half an hour of my life I'll never get back. I didn't look at their speedy deletion nominations and AFD nominations, I'm not about to start second guessing admins who looked at the articles and agreed with his speedy nominations and an AFD has sufficient eyes. But the hidden PROD trick made all of the PROD deletions invalid. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:34, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Wow. I've never seen anyone do that. It will be interesting to hear an explanation, as I can't think of any valid reason for that. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:46, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I can hazard a guess; I think around that time he dealt with one or two people who were mass-declining PRODs, as kind of a political act against PRODs in general, rather than a true disagreement with each particular PROD. This may have been his attempt to prevent that. of course, also it completely prevented legitimate readers of the articles from disputing the PROD too, unless they happened to look at the article history. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:50, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Okay, that's a semi-valid reason, though not valid enough to actually do because of the secondary fallout you mentioned. If it can be shown that one or two people where trying to make a political statement against PRODs by closing them improperly, then he should have brought his concerns to ANI or some other appropriate venue. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:59, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- That might be a reason but not very good one IMO. We should fix the problem, not game the system to try to right what is perceived as a wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. Thanks for the help in cleaning up, I got pulled away in the middle. -- GB fan 01:32, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Concur. I find it hard to see an expalantion of this that doesn't involve bad faith on the part of Sixth of March. I'd be open to hearing an explanation for them, but I agree that a block if they do it again is also an appropriate reaction. Lankiveil (speak to me) 02:32, 26 August 2016 (UTC).
- That might be a reason but not very good one IMO. We should fix the problem, not game the system to try to right what is perceived as a wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. Thanks for the help in cleaning up, I got pulled away in the middle. -- GB fan 01:32, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Okay, that's a semi-valid reason, though not valid enough to actually do because of the secondary fallout you mentioned. If it can be shown that one or two people where trying to make a political statement against PRODs by closing them improperly, then he should have brought his concerns to ANI or some other appropriate venue. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:59, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I can hazard a guess; I think around that time he dealt with one or two people who were mass-declining PRODs, as kind of a political act against PRODs in general, rather than a true disagreement with each particular PROD. This may have been his attempt to prevent that. of course, also it completely prevented legitimate readers of the articles from disputing the PROD too, unless they happened to look at the article history. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:50, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- There are some more where the prod tag wasn't hidden, but project templates on the talk page were disabled. I'm restoring them as well for abuse of the prod process. Monty845 02:27, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- They appear to go back to February 2016. I've now restored all the affected prods. There are also AFD discussions that closed as delete while the project banners were commented out, resulting in the projects not getting notifications about the AfD discussion. This isn't something an admin can unilaterally undo, and its less clear it tainted the result than in the case of the PRODs, but it should at least be raised as a potential topic of discussion. Monty845 02:59, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Wow. That's...I'm impressed. Of all the out-of-process deletions I've seen, I've never had one that creative. It would almost be a shame to block for a tactic as underhanded and brilliant as this one. Almost. I'm keeping an open mind, but I'm honestly not seeing any good faith explanation so a block or a topic ban from the deletion process might be necessary.
- On another note, now that this idea has been made public, is there any sort of template-magic we can do to subvert this if someone in the future tries it? The WordsmithTalk to me 03:22, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I think that any AfD discussion where this user had commented out the WikiProject banners should be mentioned at the involved WikiProject talk pages, along with an explicit mention of the option of WP:DELREV. I would trust any speedy deletions he tagged, unless there is any evidence of this user changing pages to match the CSDs. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 04:20, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- OK, why isn't this user blocked? Why in the world would anyone assume good faith here, in the face of such deliberate destruction? Also, how does a brand-new user even know about commenting out? They are obviously a returning user; their first edit ever was this: [28]. They are an SPA for Filipino radio. Does this ring any bells? At the very least their rollback rights should be revoked. Softlavender (talk) 09:53, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- They haven't edited since the issue was raised here eleven hours back, so let's give them the chance to offer an explanation. I can't imagine what that explanation would be, but hope springs eternal that there is one. -- Euryalus (talk) 10:09, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Out of interest, is there anything that explicitly says 'dont do this'? While it is obviously sneaky, is it actually prohibited anywhere? Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:44, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Not sure, but not convinced it matters. One can compile several books with all the manners people can be deceptive and edit inappropriately. We cannot have comprehensive lists for all "don't do"s. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 10:56, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Deletion tags/notices of any sort must remain visible on the article they are placed on until they are actually removed via a normal process. That's the only way for most users to know that the article is being considered for deletion. Softlavender (talk) 11:06, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- If we're going full-on wikilawyer mode, WP:PROD plainly states that "it may only be placed on an article a single time. Any editor (including the article's creator) may... simply remov[e] the tag; this action permanently cancels the proposed deletion via PROD." Lower, it exhorts administrators to "confirm that... the {{proposed deletion}} tag has been in place continuously for at least 7 days" (em mine). —Cryptic 11:18, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- There was a discussion that concluded that if the editor that placed the PROD removed the PROD themselves that did not count as an objection to deletion and the article could have another PROD added. I do agree though that the new PROD must be visible on the article for the whole 7 days. This isn't really relevant to this concern as the obvious intention was not to remove the PROD but to make it harder for others to object. -- GB fan 11:54, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- This is basically fraud. An editor claimed that the banner had been on display for the full period but it hadn't. Wikipedia:Honesty would cover this. Deryck C. 11:40, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Closing admins should check that there is no silliness like this before deleting, I always do. I don't think it's appropriate to put in a list of all the things that one is not allowed to do, it should be patently obvious to anyone that hiding the tag in this way is not in the spirit of the guideline and not permitted. Lankiveil (speak to me) 11:57, 26 August 2016 (UTC).
- Closing admins should look for this. Most of the ones I see that were deleted wee ones where there wire no intervening edits. The PROD was added then commented out and then restored. With no other edits taking place. I think I probably saw the edits and thought that they were just fixing the PROD, assume good faith. It was only when I saw the edits by an ip and then reverts that I started to look at every edit to figure out what happened. There are quite a few admins, including me that were deceived. The tactic obvious worked but I am hoping that admins will look closer from now on. -- GB fan 12:27, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Closing admins should check that there is no silliness like this before deleting, I always do. I don't think it's appropriate to put in a list of all the things that one is not allowed to do, it should be patently obvious to anyone that hiding the tag in this way is not in the spirit of the guideline and not permitted. Lankiveil (speak to me) 11:57, 26 August 2016 (UTC).
- Out of interest, is there anything that explicitly says 'dont do this'? While it is obviously sneaky, is it actually prohibited anywhere? Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:44, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- They haven't edited since the issue was raised here eleven hours back, so let's give them the chance to offer an explanation. I can't imagine what that explanation would be, but hope springs eternal that there is one. -- Euryalus (talk) 10:09, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Topic-ban from Deletion
I recommend a topic-ban from all deletion actions. Commenting out the PROD is disgraceful and deceptive. (Restoring a removed PROD is improper but a common mistake, but making a PROD invisible is a different matter.) Robert McClenon (talk) 12:58, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support topic-ban from deletion as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 12:58, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose topic ban We should just block this guy. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 14:16, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I think this proposal is premature. We need to give them the chance to change their actions on their own first. There is no evidence that CSD is a concern and the only AFD concern is the removal of project banners on talk pages. This is only a concern for PROD. There are many more eyes on their actions now and I believe that if they ever try this again, a block will be swift. -- GB fan 14:24, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I agree. Blocking is supposed to be preventative, and I see no evidence that the editor has engaged in the inappropriate activity after being warned, so blocking isn't warranted at this time. As for a topic ban, while the actions go beyond even a careless disregard of process, I think in the interest of process, we shouldn't be instituting a ban for an action that has (not yet) occurred after the first warning. I don't wish to understate the seriousness of the concern, but other than technical blocks for improper usernames, we generally don't mete out punishment without any prior discussion.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:12, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Thirded. There's a big spotlight on him now, and we can discuss a topic ban later. (Although I'm really interested in the explanation. Just when I thought I'd seen everything.) Katietalk 15:29, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Seems like a good time to hand out a good-sized length of rope and see what happens. A+ for ingenuity, though. PGWG (talk) 18:37, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose let them come and explain themselves first, as they haven't edited since the opening of this discussion. Pinguinn 🐧 18:50, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. Premature. Lets give them an opportunity to explain themselves before breaking out the torches and pitchforks. Lankiveil (speak to me) 01:05, 27 August 2016 (UTC).
- Support topic ban pending an appropriate response from the editor at issue. Long-term pattern of abuse calling for preventive action until we can be reasonably sure the abuse has been terminated. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by administrators since 2006. (talk) 14:48, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support. Disruption is clear enough to support a ban, and frankly I cannot imagine any good faith explaination for using such a trick. I am ready to revisit the vote if/when Sixth of March will provide a decent explaination for his actions, but patience could not be infinite. Three days have passed (and almost four since Sixth of March's last edit, which is rather unusual looking at his history), and considering the user's WP:GAME attitude, I'm not holding my breath waiting a response that could never come. Cavarrone 05:52, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
Proposed block
I propose that the user in question is blocked for 1 year. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 14:17, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support As nom. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 14:17, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Again, oppose. There is no indication that this will continue now that it has been brought out. If it does continue it will meet swift action and they will be blocked, probably for more than a year. -- GB fan 14:28, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I refer the honourable editors to the answer I gave a short time ago, in the section above.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:15, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Opppose - Such a bloch would clearly be punitive. If it happens again, sure, but I see no reason to suspect it will happen again. Tazerdadog (talk) 18:58, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support indef block. Why we are even entertaining the idea of retaining a vandal is beyond me. Support indef block; possible SO in a year if they explain why they engaged in such repeated and deliberate vandalism. There's also the question of who the editor actually is, as they were far too clueful from the get-go to be a newbie. Softlavender (talk) 23:33, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. Premature. Lets give them an opportunity to explain themselves before breaking out the torches and pitchforks. Lankiveil (speak to me) 01:05, 27 August 2016 (UTC).
- Oppose Poor proposal: Blocks serve to protect the project from harm, and reduce likely future problems, as policy says; since the issue itself currently appears to be in abeyance, the conditions for a block aren't met. Muffled Pocketed 09:55, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
Quick note
Please see Wikipedia talk:Proposed deletion#Slight tweak and offer your opinions on a proposal I've made that's relevant to this situation. Nyttend (talk) 00:24, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
Mass creation of Indian astrologer pages with phone number
For past few days, many Indian astrologer/Indian Godmen(who can cure homosexuality, erection problem, premature ejaculation)/Indian hypnotist/Indian soothsayer articles, are being created. Are they part of a paid group? I don't remember all the page names. These article names are large and the name includes a phone number. I don't have all the pages in my watchlist. Check user can help here.
- Check my contributions and User:Justinzilla/CSD log.
- User talk:GAJANAN V. KHARE Another one. This is not the full list. There are many which were tagged for speedy deletion by other page patrollers. Marvellous Spider-Man 07:05, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I just used SPECIAL:NUKE to delete about a half dozen articles like this started by User:Balusharma. Nick-D (talk) 07:17, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- This is another User talk:Lovekus45. Marvellous Spider-Man 07:24, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I just used SPECIAL:NUKE to delete about a half dozen articles like this started by User:Balusharma. Nick-D (talk) 07:17, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- My recent deletion log also contains a variety. This has been going on, on and off, for more than a year. Special:AbuseFilter/425 is the relevant filter, which obviously needs some adjustment. They're described as spambots, but there might be a human or two around somewhere. When someone creates so many accounts so quickly after being blocked, checkusers and range blocks are usually not going to be much use, but it probably won't do any harm to do a quick SPI. Multiplying the spam in CSD logs and on talk pages (please consider what User talk:Lovekus45 really looks like) is also probably not going to help much. Please instead just get the blocking admin to nuke it, and keep an eye out for the next account. -- zzuuzz (talk) 08:24, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- This is a recurring problem that we have: hookers and astrologers, all with phone numbers (+91 XXXXX XXXX). With the former there's a lot of the "revenge phone number listing", so sending to oversight becomes necessary sometimes, though most of the cases are just spam. —SpacemanSpiff 11:33, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- In the past few days I've tagged a number of articles with " Molvi Ji..." in the title, with a phone number and "LoVe pRoBlEm sOlUtIOn" in the title as well. Might an edit filter be used to catch these? RickinBaltimore (talk) 12:10, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I've stuck the phone numbers on MediaWiki:Titleblacklist. MER-C 08:53, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- Not sure how the title blacklist works, MER-C, or how best to add things? I've never done it. It worries me that the phone number 7073778243 is and was on the list if you do a search, but 7073778243 love problems solutions baba ji in delhi was nevertheless created at 02:25 27 August UTC. (I'm pleased to say Bishzilla ate the baba's page a mere 2 minutes later.) Bishonen | talk 09:25, 27 August 2016 (UTC).
- That particular entry expected a +91 as part of the phone number. I've just removed that restriction, it should be blocked now. MER-C 10:10, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
IP creating whitespaces
It appears we've an IP (200.148.2.86) who's continuing to create un-needed whitespaces in articles. GoodDay (talk) 09:33, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I see some scattered cases of disruptive blanking, such as 1, 2, and 3, but Materialscientist already blocked the IP editor for those edits. It's possible these whitespace edits are a passive-aggressive reaction to that block. They're not especially disruptive, but they're not constructive, either. The most annoying aspect of edits like these is that they clog watchlists. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:43, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
For people wondering about non-admins having deletion logs...
According to phab:T106119, now when someone moves a page over a redirect, it by default shows up as a deletion in the deletion log, even when the editor in question is not an administrator. Also being discussed at the technical Village Pump, please follow up with questions and comments there; this post is solely for publicization. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 09:37, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Request for re-close of an old RfC (and closure of a disruptive RfC)
I would like to request a review of the closure of this RfC regarding the page Paul Singer (businessman). It was discussed with the closer here.
The previous RfC for this same issue (12/10/15) can be found here where consensus was established six months prior to the RfC in question. Between the two RfCs, the closer had created a number of discussions (possibly in violation of WP:FORUMSHOP) here: [29] [30] [31] [32]. These discussions failed to garner much attention and mostly reinforced the 12/10/15 consensus.
It must be noted that the RfC in question is rather old (29/04/16) and editors protested the closure since it was closed by the same editor who opened both the RfC itself and all other discussions, and was not necessarily reflective of consensus which does appear to reinforce that set out in the 12/10/15 RfC.
The improper close of the RfC would normally not be an issue, however, yet another RfC has opened, claiming that the last discussion was "inconclusive" and we must therefore have another discussion.
I would argue that this has all been incredibly disruptive considering the huge number of editors involved (36) in the prior 8 discussions from a 16/07/14 RfC to the 29/04/16 RfC is plenty of discussion for something which editors have considered relatively uncontroversial - 23 have been in favour of the current consensus and 6 against, with 7 somewhere in between. Furthermore, consensus has often not been respected in the rare points of calm between discussion, with some of the "6 against" editors making against-consensus edits and reversions.
This is a messy situation, but to conclude, I would like to request the evaluation of the close here and the closure of the current RfC, considering the arguements made by other editors at Talk:Paul Singer (businessman)#RfC is Nonsense. Thanks. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 19:42, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- The issue is bifurcated in the prior RfCs. There was a limited consensus that a company could be called a "vulture fund" but no consensus that a person should be described as a "vulture capitalist" in the lead of a BLP. My own position has always been that specific pejorative terms should only be used as opinions ascribed to the persons holding the opinions, and that use of pejoratives about individuals should very rarely be allowed at all. To that end, I suggest that reversing prior closes is inapt, and the claims made that the prior RfCs support calling a living person a "vulture" are incorrect. The company can have cites of opinions that it is a "vulture fund" cited and used as opinions, but the use of that pejorative as a statement of fact about a living person falls under WP:NPOV and WP:BLP. The current RfC has 6 editors specifically noting that the use of the pejorative in the lead about a person is wrong, 1 says the person is absolutely a "vulture capitalist", 1 asserts that every RfC supports calling the person a "vulture" and one says we should not have any more RfCs - that the issue is settled and we should call the living person a "vulture capitalist" in the lead on that basis. I rather that the current 6 to 3 opposition to use of the term in the lead indicates a substantial disagreement with the assertions made here, and the request that a close be overturned out of process. Collect (talk) 21:08, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- There has been no RfC to discuss whether someone should be called a vulture. I myself have said in past discussions that doing so, especially in WP's voice, would be contrary to what this encyclopaedia is about. Please do not mis-represent my views - it's things like that which have made these constant ongoing RfCs so toxic. My view is that Singer is most notable (WP:DUE) for running a vulture fund - and there are indeed countless sources (WP:RS) which confirm this and thus this fact should be made clear in the lede. Claiming that mentioning his company in an article equates to WP calling someone a vulture is nonsense and not a new arguement - this is the same line those same editors took over and over again in these discussions to no avail. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 21:32, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Note that I specify the issue at hand is with regard to using the pejorative with regard to the single living person in the lead. A number of sources have branded him a "vulture capitalist" as distinct from his role at EMC, which has been called a vulture fund.. The two catenated uses of the pejorative are different here - ne is with regard to how some have categorized the fund, the other as a personal pejorative in the lead about the person. Do you see that distinction? Especially when the single sentence uses the term "vulture" twice? Collect (talk) 23:09, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- You also failed to mention 2 more editors who had been in favour of using the term vulture fund in the lede but refused to partake in this particular discussion since they have made it clear that there have already been to many. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 21:39, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Again - the word "vulture" is used twice now in a single sentence in the lead - once with regard to opinions held about the fund (for which the prior RfC found the use of the opinion as opinion about the fund was allowable), and the second, the problematic one, with regard to the use of a pejorative about a living person in the lead of the BLP. Collect (talk) 23:09, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I am the creator of the most recent RfC. Frankly SegataSanshiro1 forced this RfC to happen in the first place by refusing to engage in talk page discussion on the vulture point. I would like to request that anyone participating in this discussion carefully read Wikipedia:Status quo stonewalling, and then refer directly to each of SegataSanshiro1's actions leading up to this RfC, and his actions in this one as well. Whatever SegataSanshiro may personally believe, a slur in a lead is Always A Very Big Deal, and not something to be brushed under the rug. As WP:Biographies of living people says, "we must get it right." It seems clear to me that several parties want to freeze an ongoing discussion at a point they find satisfying. Yvarta (talk) 21:51, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- There has been no RfC to discuss whether someone should be called a vulture. I myself have said in past discussions that doing so, especially in WP's voice, would be contrary to what this encyclopaedia is about. Please do not mis-represent my views - it's things like that which have made these constant ongoing RfCs so toxic. My view is that Singer is most notable (WP:DUE) for running a vulture fund - and there are indeed countless sources (WP:RS) which confirm this and thus this fact should be made clear in the lede. Claiming that mentioning his company in an article equates to WP calling someone a vulture is nonsense and not a new arguement - this is the same line those same editors took over and over again in these discussions to no avail. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 21:32, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- I have been involved in these ongoing discussions for quite some time now. As I've stated before, using a pejorative to describe an individual on a BLP is unacceptable, especially in the lead. That being said, the previous RfC was closed once discussion went stale. There were ample opportunities and there was more than enough time to provide arguments. Once users agreed upon a version, which limited use of the term "vulture", the user who closed the RfC made the edits in question but was reverted and the term was included an additional three times.
- SegataSanshiro1's antics on Singer's page has gotten out of control and his motive on the page is clear. Now that consensus on the newest RfC is shifting highly in favor of removing the slur from the lead, SegataSanshiro1 is grasping at straws to get the previous RfC reviewed. If SegataSanshiro1 had an issue with how the previous RfC was closed, why didn't he follow through with an secondary discussion after this one went stagnant? After realizing consensus is shifting, not in his favor, he wants to call this new productive RfC "disruptive". Also, after the last RfC was closed, an admin came in and suggested a new RfC so do not throw out WP:FORUMSHOPPING accusations. Meatsgains (talk) 02:39, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- Meatsgains, consensus is not shifting as you cannot establish consensus in a discussion which half of the editors can't even take seriously. You have been at the heart of this whole drama. Every time there was an RfC or discussion and consensus was established to use the term, you actively went about making against-consensus edits and other highly disruptive behaviour (which myself and other editors have called you out on time and time again) such as misrepresenting the results of other discussions, claiming sources weren't reliable when they were and even making up terminology like "distressed securities funds" to avoid using actual terminology. You are the only editor who has been involved in every single one of these discussions - very possessive behaviour all in all and along with the other things, you should have been sanctioned and barred from editing on that page.
- Still, you continue to misrepresent what happened. There were five editors (myself included) who have said that this RfC is daft. If that were not the case, I wouldn't have opened this discussion on the noticeboard. I'm not going to let you make me lose it again, so please stop referring to me - I want absolutely nothing to do with you, and I know I shouldn't be addressing editors directly, but I really want to make that absolutely clear. Something hypothetical you might want to think about though:
- After you've rolled the dice so many times trying to prevent WP:RS from an article and failed miserably, let's say that now after 8 or so attempts at getting your way you finally do. How seriously do you think other editors would take that consensus? Would they simply carry on doing as they wished to the page regardless as you have? Would they simply call another RfC in three months time and pretend the others never happened as you have? I very much doubt I'll stick around after this because I'm sick of this page, but I have a feeling you will, and if you do and you carry on acting as you have, you will be doing this for years. Please don't answer me. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 03:09, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- I have weighed in on this on multiple occasions and will do my best to promptly summarize my opinion on the topic. The original dispute over the use of the term vulture has been over the derogatory nature of the term on vulture fund’s page. Subsequent discussions have taken place regarding the general use of the term, however the scope of the debate later concentrated on the term’s use in a BLP, specifically Paul Singer’s page. Some editors, whom I will not name, act as if they wp:own the article and have done everything in their power to keep vulture fund and vulture capitalist in the article. Some users have actually made the argument that "vulture" is not derogatory whatsoever (one even argued that it should be taken as a compliment. No reasonable and neutral arbitrator could disagree with the fact that “vulture fund” is a slur, invented by people who are deeply opposed to their entirely legal investments. Comatmebro User talk:Comatmebro 17:05, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
Reverted 1 edit by Collect (talk): You're hardly the person to close this RfC... is a splendid example of grotesque snark. I did not "close the RfC" and that snark is ill-suited for rational discussion. In addition, I left in the "vulture" opinion about EMC, and note that the lead is supposed to be in summary style. I am concerned that this sort of snark is poisonous to any discussion, and ask that any editor who feels such personal attacks should be used should get the aitch away from here. Collect (talk) 21:32, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- Collect, it's quite understandable that a number of editors are very much on edge considering this has been discussed to death and the conduct of a couple of editors in particular. I think what Nomoskedasticity meant by that remark is that you were making edits about something which was being discussed... Were you not one of those supporting an RfC after all?
- From my own personal perspective, I think mentioning his main business area is running a culture fund, then including other references to him specifically in some sort of criticism section would be ideal. That and removing references to philanthropy from the lede as per WP:UNDUE. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 22:18, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: first of all I wish to state my astonishment at not being pinged when I was directly involved with one of the RfCs called into question. SegataSanshiro1's guerilla antics are indeed widespread and grave. I do not care about user behaviour at this stage, however, merely the state of Singer's biography. Said RfC was indeed improperly closed by myself, after which I requested admin intervention to reopen it (or closed by an uninvolved user - note I did so per WP:BOLD and because a determination was indeed agreed upon). This request was speedily rejected by KrakatoaKatie together with its corresponding ANI post, so I think it's safe to assume there is no interest in rekindling old fires. Attempts at mediation about this issue also failed. Regarding consensus, I counted at least 7 new voices in the current discussion, all offering interesting new insights (DGG, Collect, Elinruby, FuriouslySerene, Snow_Rise, Chris Hallquist, and Yvarta); there is strong indication at least some parties are willing to compromise. Some are under the impression consensus is a simple vote tally. I call into question this vehement ownership of the Paul Singer article. Every time any editor makes a serious attempt at a copy edit (no matter how minor), a concerted effort by the same bunch of editors reverses all possible changes. Just look at the edit history. Serious and pragmatic comments aimed at stemming this dreadlock are conveniently brushed aside, such as DGG's - "It's appropriate to use it in the article, since there is good sourcing, but it is not appropriate to use it in the lede. Ledes should be relatively neutral". If civil discussion cannot come about and admin action is required, so be it, but it does set a sad precedent. We had originally copy edited the lede back in October, trimming the use of "vulture" down to a single mention. This was of course then reverted maniacally even though discussion had concluded in that precise path. I don't see why a reasonable review of each instance of the word's use cannot take place. FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 22:59, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- Focus, this wasn't intended to be "guerilla antics" - we had actually discussed a re-close prior to this and you were involved, together with a number of other editors who I did not ping since I figured they would not want to be dragged into this again - I take it you're a page watcher anyway and I mentioned this discussion on the talk page. I also never had a problem with you being WP:BOLD and closing the discussion (in fact if I recall correctly, me and other editors were all for it), what myself and other editors had a problem with was the closing remarks, in particular "the RfC question was not unequivocally answered" when in reality it had, for the nth time that it is appropriate to use this particular word in this particular article - that's beyond discussion at this point. To this day, I agree with the path of compromise we embarked on, what I did not agree with was the sheer amount of forums this was taken to and the manner in which the discussion was closed. To be honest, that close made me question your good faith and took away any desire on my part to be collaborative.
- The issue with these discussions is that they're never clear, we're never discussing on a point by point basis since one or two editors (should be fairly obvious who) take these discussions as an attempt to remove all mention of the terminology, digging in their heels until we're back in 2014 again discussing whether we should censor it entirely (again, always the same editors). All the while, creating serious NPOV issues by removing statements backed up by RS and adding in things which are UNDUE in an attempt to whitewash. If that stops, then I'm sure normal discussion could ensue and general anger levels could be drastically reduced along with the tedium. I have already said that I'm of the opinion that "vulture capitalist" should be discussed, but that's hardly going to happen if we still have editors claiming a vulture fund is not a thing, and the very presence of the term (what Singer is most notable for, if I may add) equates to Wikipedia calling a living person a vulture. That's not new, that's not productive and you're as aware of that as I am. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 23:46, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- It was a middle of the road close. . There is a distinction between someone being personally a vulture, which implies that he acts in that manner in all his activities or is of that personality type, and running a fund that shares some similar characteristics and goes by the common name of vulture fund. We cannot avoid using the full term, because even those sources that endorse the profession use it as a matter of course. But we can try to avodi personalizing things that don't need personalizing, especially things that some people are likely to consider highly negative. DGG ( talk ) 03:30, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- And to the point - any BLP which stresses the use of "vulture" seventeen times is likely to be perceivable as making a point in itself. I just do not understand the concept that name-calling is something Wikipedia should actively pursue, and that editors who even remove a single use from the lead are somehow evil here. Argh. Collect (talk) 12:46, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- It doesn't appear 17 times. I only see 6 mentions in the article itself and one of them was actually about an antisemitic cartoon - the rest are mentions in references. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 12:49, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- That's INCREDIBLY misleading. Most of those are references, hence more reason to include it. Of the 6 ACTUAL uses, none of them are in WP's voice. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 14:29, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- @SegataSanshiro1: You keep claiming that "Singer is most notable for" his "vulture fund". This is your own opinion. Do a google news search and tell us how many pages you have to dig through before coming across a page that uses the slur? This is a false assumption, which you have consistently done throughout this dispute. Meatsgains (talk) 17:10, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Stop pinging me. This isn't my own opinion and vulture fund is not a slur, it's the name of a type of fund that buys debt at discount prices and attempts to sue for 100% payment. As much as you pretend it isn't, you should remember this since you were involved in multiple discussions where you pretended that there was consensus that it was a slur when there wasn't - you were called out on it multiple times: [33] [34]. You also made a no-consensus page move from vulture fund to "distressed securities fund" despite there being no sources to validate such naming and in clear violation of WP:COMMONNAME - you should also remember this since there were two discussions, both on the talk page and at WP:W2W which undid that rather stealthy move and established rather firmly that vulture funds are indeed a thing and that is indeed what they are called, while Singer's EMC is one of the most prolific. Why have you consistently misrepresented information and lied to other editors? There's plenty more examples where you have been called out on doing this, want me to give more? Meatsgains, you are the only editor (along with Comatmebro, actually) who has been involved in every discussion to do with Singer, vulture funds and Elliott Management Corporation and consistently used some very dodgy tactics to get your way, ranging from ignoring consensus and making edits regardless to protecting all these pages like a hawk (or vulture, more appropriately?) and claiming sources aren't reliable based on your own opinions. I'm still shocked you're still around and you haven't been sanctioned. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 18:19, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- "This isn't my own opinion and vulture fund is not a slur" - Yes it is and yes it is. Also, do not dilute this discussion with attacking me. Meatsgains (talk) 20:15, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Stop pinging me. This isn't my own opinion and vulture fund is not a slur, it's the name of a type of fund that buys debt at discount prices and attempts to sue for 100% payment. As much as you pretend it isn't, you should remember this since you were involved in multiple discussions where you pretended that there was consensus that it was a slur when there wasn't - you were called out on it multiple times: [33] [34]. You also made a no-consensus page move from vulture fund to "distressed securities fund" despite there being no sources to validate such naming and in clear violation of WP:COMMONNAME - you should also remember this since there were two discussions, both on the talk page and at WP:W2W which undid that rather stealthy move and established rather firmly that vulture funds are indeed a thing and that is indeed what they are called, while Singer's EMC is one of the most prolific. Why have you consistently misrepresented information and lied to other editors? There's plenty more examples where you have been called out on doing this, want me to give more? Meatsgains, you are the only editor (along with Comatmebro, actually) who has been involved in every discussion to do with Singer, vulture funds and Elliott Management Corporation and consistently used some very dodgy tactics to get your way, ranging from ignoring consensus and making edits regardless to protecting all these pages like a hawk (or vulture, more appropriately?) and claiming sources aren't reliable based on your own opinions. I'm still shocked you're still around and you haven't been sanctioned. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 18:19, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- @SegataSanshiro1: You keep claiming that "Singer is most notable for" his "vulture fund". This is your own opinion. Do a google news search and tell us how many pages you have to dig through before coming across a page that uses the slur? This is a false assumption, which you have consistently done throughout this dispute. Meatsgains (talk) 17:10, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- That's INCREDIBLY misleading. Most of those are references, hence more reason to include it. Of the 6 ACTUAL uses, none of them are in WP's voice. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 14:29, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- It doesn't appear 17 times. I only see 6 mentions in the article itself and one of them was actually about an antisemitic cartoon - the rest are mentions in references. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 12:49, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- And to the point - any BLP which stresses the use of "vulture" seventeen times is likely to be perceivable as making a point in itself. I just do not understand the concept that name-calling is something Wikipedia should actively pursue, and that editors who even remove a single use from the lead are somehow evil here. Argh. Collect (talk) 12:46, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
Thank you, DGG; that's a fair representation of my basic thoughts as well. As I just posted on the Singer talk page, we're trying to discuss the use of "vulture" as a descriptor of a human being. "Vulture" is as such a charged word in the sense that we're liable to annex this valued meaning to a word that is used in the context of a business endeavour. Handling a vulture fund is not the same as BEING a vulture. I am utterly amazed people fail to see that. The previous close was precisely that, a "middle of the road close". The "vulture fund" practices are thoroughly discussed throughout the article in the context of what quality sources have to say about the matter. Using the term through a personal angle by making a de facto generalisation in an article's lede is another story, and I believe we were making some progress back in October in this regard. I would very much like to see us return to that stage and come up with a neutral and balanced solution. FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 21:17, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Agree that handling a vulture fund does not equate to being a vulture - that's the main flawed premise that has been holding this back. I still disagree that the close was "middle of the road", since using vulture terminology does not violate NPOV (the question raised in the RfC) since it is WP:DUE - only a tiny, tiny number of people have said that all reference to vultures should be gone from the article. The Samsung affair and other criticism (such as "vulture capitalist") needs to go in a criticism section rather than the lede - Singer has received enough criticism from multiple sources to warrant one. Vulture fund, on the other hand, should remain firmly in the lede - that's what he's known for and what a large chunk of the article is about. I know you have argued that he has other investments, but that's akin to leaving out the Iraq war in Tony Blair's page. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 22:30, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Yet again you are wildly, amazingly off topic. There is already an RfC discussing this issue, in case you forgot, and a talk page to discuss general improvements. This discussion, SegataSanshiro, you started to determine if the RfC creations are inappropriate. As you seem to have forgotten, I would like to remind you that you reverted my lead change on the grounds that I needed to first discuss, and now you are trying to shut that very discussion down - that, or apparently force it to stagnate by repeating the same arguments while ignoring the arguments of others. As far as I am concerned, you specifically continue to stonewall and disrupt a natural consensus building process. You are either nearing either an epiphany (i.e. that this is not a battle you are trying to win), or nearing a topic ban. Yvarta (talk) 23:45, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Not me specifically. There have been five editors (including me) who have questioned the validity of this RfC. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 15:47, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- Yet again you are wildly, amazingly off topic. There is already an RfC discussing this issue, in case you forgot, and a talk page to discuss general improvements. This discussion, SegataSanshiro, you started to determine if the RfC creations are inappropriate. As you seem to have forgotten, I would like to remind you that you reverted my lead change on the grounds that I needed to first discuss, and now you are trying to shut that very discussion down - that, or apparently force it to stagnate by repeating the same arguments while ignoring the arguments of others. As far as I am concerned, you specifically continue to stonewall and disrupt a natural consensus building process. You are either nearing either an epiphany (i.e. that this is not a battle you are trying to win), or nearing a topic ban. Yvarta (talk) 23:45, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Comment I am not opposed to having an administrator re-close a previous RFC if the stated consensus was incorrect (I was the one who suggested coming to AN on the Singer talk page as SegatSanshiro continues to question it), just for the sake of clarity and any subsequent discussions. I do not support closing the current RFC though. I don't see it as disruptive as opinion is clearly divided and the issue is contentious, the previous RfC was over 4 months ago and the closing and consensus is disputed, so getting new editors involved to seek consensus should be a good thing (I only joined this discussion thanks to this most recent RfC). As for my opinion about the underlying issue, I've already posted to the RfC and it may not be relevant here, but I believe that mainstream reliable sources do not refer to Singer as a "vulture." He is called a hedge fund manager by these sources. Therefore the term vulture should only be used when it is ascribed to a specific person or entity (i.e., his critics). My reading of the current RfC and previous ones is that most editors agree with that position. FuriouslySerene (talk) 17:30, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- Comment I have never edited this article and am in this because the RfC bot asked me to give my opinion. The person who started the RfC however has repeatedly told me I am off-topic when I try to explain the BLP policy. As best I can tell however the person's argument is that the appellation is inappropriate because Singer is a living person, and they appear to be ready to repeat this argument indefinitely. I would also like to mention that while I personally believe that "vulture capitalist" is a specialized bit of vocabulary that is not particularly pejorative, the current wording does not use it in wikipedia's voice either, which many of the comments on this seem to assume. It says he has been called a vulture capitalist and provides no less than nine sources for the statement. I believe we should remove the weasel wording and explicitly quote one or more people. I would agree with the idea expressed at one point of balancing out concerns about due weight, assuming that is what they are, by adding other details of his business dealings. However as far as I can tell there are no such details; Singer seems to be a specialist in this type of transaction, and to have been for decades. Elinruby (talk) 20:07, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Long-term vandalism at Howie Schwab
Hi. Howie Schwab, a BLP, is currently indefinitely semi-protected because of long-term vandalism from socks. Yesterday, an autoconfirmed account, LambertJudd (talk · contribs), vandalized the article. If you look at the article's history, I'm the only editor since April 2016 who has made a constructive improvement to the article, and the vandalism goes back to at least November 2015. Clearly, this isn't going to stop, and semi-protection alone isn't going to cut it if autoconfirmed accounts are now being used. Given the lack of reverts by Oshwah or Cluebot, I'm going to assume that automated tools aren't catching this vandalism. So, I see three solutions: 1) we make NinjaRobotPirate waste his time until he decides to retire in protest, 2) we set up an edit filter, or 3) we use extended confirmed protection. I am against the first option. The second option sounds good to me, but I would prefer the third one, as it's more foolproof. I figure there's little chance anyone will support ECP just to make my life easier, however. By the way, I gave LambertJudd a level 3 vandalism warning for perpetuating the vandalism, but if we've got a hanging judge around here who wants to block LJ as a vandalism only account, I wouldn't complain. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:20, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- Blocked as a clear vandalism only account. No opinion yet on the question of ECP. Lankiveil (speak to me) 03:02, 27 August 2016 (UTC).
- Clear target of a proven sockmaster who apparently has multiple sleepers set up. I'm in for ECP for one year, as this is a long-term abuser and I doubt a shorter duration will be effective. Objections before I set it up? Katietalk 03:11, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- For the record, this is User:Jaredgk2008, and they've made 501 edits before just to do some vandalism on ECP pages. Actually, more than once, and more than twice. They attack a lot of pages, but yeah, ECP might be useful. -- zzuuzz (talk) 14:16, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- I figured that someone who would vandalize an article for nearly a year might not be stopped by a 30 day waiting period, but it's still disappointing to see this level of fixation. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:25, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- Is this the correct forum? I would think WP:RFPP would be the place to ask now in light of the recent RFC on Extended confirmation protection. Tazerdadog (talk) 16:56, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- NRP wanted a discussion, and RFPP isn't set up for discussions. Anyone is free to bring any protection issue to the community's notice.
- I've Extended confirmed protected the page for one year, and I consider this AN section notice to the community for review as required per policy. Katietalk 19:32, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- The protection looks good. Thanks for the clarification Katie, I didn't realize RFPP wasn't set up for discussions. Tazerdadog (talk) 21:26, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- If you're doing your best to vandalise an ECP page, one of three things will happen: you'll make some productive edits before vandalising (i.e. the community will benefit while you're working your way up to EC), or you'll do nothing but minor userspace edits (you waste a pile of your own time doing trivial things in your sandbox, perhaps getting really bored along the way), or you'll start doing unproductive stuff sooner and potentially get blocked (maybe even as a VOA) before you get up to 500. All of those options are better than enabling vandal socks to attack the page in question after just ten edits to other pages. Nyttend (talk) 00:14, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- The protection looks good. Thanks for the clarification Katie, I didn't realize RFPP wasn't set up for discussions. Tazerdadog (talk) 21:26, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
Team for AfD closure?
How does one ask for a team to close an AfD? I've looked over Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kristina Rose and I have a mini-essay closure ready but I wonder whether having an admin-team closing is better, and how one does set up such a close. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 21:33, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- I believe team (multi-administrator) closures of XfDs are rare. At a time when there are admin backlogs all over the place, it would seem best for most XfDs to continue to be closed by one administrator, except in really extraordinary circumstances. This is especially true because DRV is a readily available forum if there is disagreement with the closure. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:35, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with Newyorkbrad, I think a single admin closure of this discussion is appropriate. Thanks for preparing a thorough close, Jo-Jo Eumerus. I JethroBT drop me a line 22:15, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- Alright, I shall thus close this on my own. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 23:15, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
Can someone create this article please? Thank you! P.S. Apparently only admins can do that.Cheetah (talk) 02:57, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Probably better if you create the article somewhere else, and then one of us moves it from the other title to this location. Do you have anything yet that's a writeup for being moved to this title? Nyttend (talk) 04:53, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Ok, here you go. Thanks!Cheetah (talk) 07:12, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Done. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 07:23, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Od Mishehu Perhaps I'm missing something obvious concerning this instance, but is it really a good idea to move a stub article to mainspace when it presently consists of just one sentence, and is completely unverified by even a single WP:Reliable source. There's exactly one source on that (12 word long) article, and it's a tiny press release on the team's website. If this is the best that Cheetah can come up with at this time, then it seems likely this subject is presently inherently non-notable; at the very least I feel a lot more work should be done before this is preserved in mainspace--at present, it certainly could not survive an AfD. I'm also concerned that Cheetah could apparently not create this article himself as an auto-confirmed user; is this because the article was previously WP:SALTED? Snow let's rap 23:44, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- (talk page watcher)
Players who have played... in a fully professional league, will generally be regarded as notable
Muffled Pocketed 11:52, 29 August 2016 (UTC)- As soon as it would no longer be speedy deletable (including under G4), it should be moved into the mainspace. The article, as it stood when I de-userfied it, explicitly stated that the player had been in a fully professional team, and included a link to a page which asserted that he actually played in that team. This clearly is an assertion which makes him meet WP:NFOOTY - and the reason the article was deleted was that it made no such assertion (in fact, it wasn't true at the time). If you still think the article, in its current form, shouldn't exist, feel free to bring it to a new AFD discussion. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 17:44, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- No, no need; I was unfamiliar with WP:NFOOTY. Honestly, I'm mystified to discover what has become of our WP:NSPORTS policies since last I looked; why we would make a presumption that each and every athlete is inherently notable so long as they played for a professional team, even when we don't have even so much as a single reliable source which attests to their notability, nor a single thing to say about them, other than that they played for a team, is quite beyond me. It feels like this opens the way for turning large sections of the encyclopedia into a giant catalog with articles for every single professional athlete in existence, whether there is any coverage of their significance (to their sport or broadly)--which surely is blatantly in defiance of the principle behind WP:NOTDIRECTORY. It seems to me that the editors who have been contributing to WP:NSPORTS have seriously lost the plot.
- As soon as it would no longer be speedy deletable (including under G4), it should be moved into the mainspace. The article, as it stood when I de-userfied it, explicitly stated that the player had been in a fully professional team, and included a link to a page which asserted that he actually played in that team. This clearly is an assertion which makes him meet WP:NFOOTY - and the reason the article was deleted was that it made no such assertion (in fact, it wasn't true at the time). If you still think the article, in its current form, shouldn't exist, feel free to bring it to a new AFD discussion. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 17:44, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- (talk page watcher)
- Od Mishehu Perhaps I'm missing something obvious concerning this instance, but is it really a good idea to move a stub article to mainspace when it presently consists of just one sentence, and is completely unverified by even a single WP:Reliable source. There's exactly one source on that (12 word long) article, and it's a tiny press release on the team's website. If this is the best that Cheetah can come up with at this time, then it seems likely this subject is presently inherently non-notable; at the very least I feel a lot more work should be done before this is preserved in mainspace--at present, it certainly could not survive an AfD. I'm also concerned that Cheetah could apparently not create this article himself as an auto-confirmed user; is this because the article was previously WP:SALTED? Snow let's rap 23:44, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Done. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 07:23, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Ok, here you go. Thanks!Cheetah (talk) 07:12, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- That being said, the policy does say what it says, and I apologize for not being up-to-date enough on ittyo recognize that your move to mainspace was consistent with it. Honestly, though I think the community needs to review this and create a principle that, while specific notability policies can be used in place of GNG, no such policy should introduce a presumption of notability without the need for a single reliable source; WP:V is a pillar policy afterall, and other than lists and similar function pages, all articles should have some degree of sourcing. This is a pretty glaring issue and I'm a little gobsmacked that the community allowed that particular notability page adopt such a standard. Snow let's rap 01:26, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- I have tried to make the same arguments in regards to WP:POLITICIAN #1 in the past, to no avail. I find it disturbing that the Poli, Sports, and Porn (and I think Schools, too) project groups have all apparently carved out pretty massive "exceptions" to WP:GNG... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:36, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- Well, topic-specific notability guidelines were always meant to be parallel tracks to GNG, which is fine in and of itself. But these carve-outs are pretty clearly not consistent with the broader community consensus on the manner in which notability works on this project. To say nothing of how many different subsections of WP:WWIN it violates to create basically empty (and completely unsourced) articles just so we can have a complete rosters for every professional sports team in existence... This is meant to be an encyclopedia, not a sports almanac, nor any kind of directory... I'm not sure how or when these guidelines got out of whack, but it's an issue clearly overdue to visit the village pump for some community input. Snow let's rap 07:55, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- I have tried to make the same arguments in regards to WP:POLITICIAN #1 in the past, to no avail. I find it disturbing that the Poli, Sports, and Porn (and I think Schools, too) project groups have all apparently carved out pretty massive "exceptions" to WP:GNG... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:36, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- That being said, the policy does say what it says, and I apologize for not being up-to-date enough on ittyo recognize that your move to mainspace was consistent with it. Honestly, though I think the community needs to review this and create a principle that, while specific notability policies can be used in place of GNG, no such policy should introduce a presumption of notability without the need for a single reliable source; WP:V is a pillar policy afterall, and other than lists and similar function pages, all articles should have some degree of sourcing. This is a pretty glaring issue and I'm a little gobsmacked that the community allowed that particular notability page adopt such a standard. Snow let's rap 01:26, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
If you feel the alternate notability policies are too weak, discuss them and try to get them changed. Until you do that, they are part of our policy. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 17:06, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, I think you'll find, if you bother to read my comments above, that I already said exactly that. Snow let's rap 20:08, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- To be fair, this isn't actually a good example of the failings of NFOOTY. The player played 57 times for a fully professional team in Lithuania and played six games in the UEFA Europa League, the second-most high profile tournament in European club football. He didn't suddenly become notable when he played one game in America, strangely enough. Black Kite (talk) 17:35, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- The point is, notability on this project is supposed to be established by coverage in WP:reliable sources, not the idiosyncratic notions of what particular editors feel makes a person (or any subject) "important". If he is truly notable, then someone, somewhere in the global collection of sports journalism and other reliable sourcing should be talking about him. And it may very well be that for him there are such sources that can be turned-up; my broader concern is that WP:NSPORTS now embraces an approach where such sourcing is not required, which runs directly against the longstanding, broad and explicit community consensus as to what WP:Notability is for the purposes of this project.
- This disregard for the Wikipedia 101 principle that articles need to be sourced allows for the mass-cataloguing of sports franchise rosters, stats, and other sorts of minutiae, all in conflict with both the reading and spirit of WP:What Wikipedia is not. These are not issues that are specific to this particular athlete--again, he may very well be notable; I just want to see sourcing to establish it, as is supposed to be done with most any subject on this project. Nor is this the forum where such issues ultimately have to be fixed, obviously. I just happen to be expressing my shock that this has become the status quo for athlete articles without the broader community becoming aware and putting the breaks on a potentially massive amount of unsourced articles, the subject having arisen in this instance. Snow let's rap 20:08, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- That said, that's the extent to which I feel discussion should proceed here, so the bot can archive this thread in short order; I'll take the broader issues to WP:VPP when I have time, whenever that might be. Snow let's rap 20:14, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed, though in this particular player's case WP:CSB applies; there are very large amounts of reliable sources about him out there but most are in Lithunanian or Latvian. Black Kite (talk) 20:33, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Hey fellow admins, curious how you might handle this: IP adds plot summary at Iss Pyaar Ko Kya Naam Doon?. I spot-check, find potential copyvio at hxxp://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=4636757&TPN=6 (site blacklisted, you'll need to tinker with the URL) I remove and suppress. DellzCreationz resubmits the content. I remove and suppress. DellzCreationz contacts me and asserts that he wrote the content and is not plagiarizing it, explaining that he is a member of India-forums and that Dellz is his username. I notice that the plot summary was posted by lazychick.maria, not by Dellz.
The terms of use (hxxp://www.india-forums.com/terms_of_use.asp) seem to suggest that india-forums claims no hold on user submissions. "For clarity, you retain all of your ownership rights in your User Submissions."
Thoughts? Should the plot summary be allowed to return? Many thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:51, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- I suggest you get Dellz to get the original poster (lazychick.maria) on the forum to follow-up in that thread, indicating they release the content either to the public domain, or via one of the appropriate CC licenses (or similar). If that happens, great. Otherwise, lazychick.maria owns the copyright and we can't use it. Copyright aside, that plot summary is almost certainly too long, though you'll want to take my opinion with a grain of salt here. --Yamla (talk) 23:58, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Also, many forums assert that whatever you post there is under the site's copyright, so even if they wrote it, by posting it there first they gave up the right to call the material in the PD. --MASEM (t) 00:22, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- Masem, that's what I thought originally, except the site doesn't have a copyright notice on the discussion pages, and their terms of use seem to expressly disclaim ownership of the material as noted above. Assuming I'm interpreting "User Submissions" correctly, which I may not be. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 02:58, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- Also, many forums assert that whatever you post there is under the site's copyright, so even if they wrote it, by posting it there first they gave up the right to call the material in the PD. --MASEM (t) 00:22, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
I have posted the summary not lazy chick.maria you can check the thread please allow me to paste my own written summary.Its not by lazychick.maria — Preceding unsigned comment added by DellzCreationz (talk • contribs) 15:10, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- Despite your claims to the contrary, the link provided above shows the summary was posted by lazychick.maria, not Dellz. Now, it's quite possible it was posted by lazychick.maria based on a writeup sent to her by Dellz, but we need lazychick.maria to post on that thread, releasing the summary to the public domain (or under an appropriate license), or to explicitly state Dellz owns the copyright and then have Dellz post on that forum thread. In any case, I'll reiterate that the plot summary is far too long for Wikipedia to use as-is. --Yamla (talk) 21:57, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
Right to defence
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
With regard to the following accusation [35], I have been hindered in seeking comments which refute the accusations here [36], [37] and on my talk page here [38]. I'm the innocent party, but the important one is the natural right to a defense. If any discussion is needed, it is here Wikipedia_talk:Canvassing#Right_to_defend_yourself Travelmite (talk) 05:38, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Your actions were clear canvassing, which is not allowed on Wikipedia. The editors you notified (here, here, here and here), from what I have seen, have taken your side in your long-term dispute with Skyring, and what's more, instead of simply notifying them of the discussion, you said the user is "making ridiculous accusations", so there is obvious bias. And now you're dragging me over to the admins' noticeboard after I did the right thing by reverting and striking your canvassing? Speedy No action (WP:BOOMERANG) close, please. Linguist 111 Moi? Moi. 06:22, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
Need a Panel of Admins to close a contentious discussion
Dear Admin Corps!
Please see Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people)#Proposed_Change_to_PORNBIO. I see a clear consensus but those opposing the change are vociferously arguing that there is no consensus. The simplest way to resolve tghis is to ask for 3 independent admins to sign up to assess the consensus of the discussion. Please could we have volunteers and then we can leave the close entirely up to those kind people. Thanks. Spartaz Humbug! 06:08, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- I did close Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kristina Rose, which is pertinent (a little follow up here). Does that count as involvement? Because if no I'd be willing. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 06:36, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- Undertaking administrative action is precluded from making you involved so no objection here. Spartaz Humbug! 06:56, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- This is what I was thinking, but wasn't sure it was accurate. So, I don't have a problem with this selection.Steve Quinn (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:04, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- Undertaking administrative action is precluded from making you involved so no objection here. Spartaz Humbug! 06:56, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
Feyli
this article already exists in Wikipedia but a user made this. both of them are one, but when i use propose deletion, he deletes the tag. here and here --– Hossein Iran « talk » 14:43, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- This does indeed seem to be a pretty clear WP:POVFORK, but I'm not sure that it qualifies for speedy deletion; the article has been up for more than four months and thus may not qualify under the "recently created" criteria of A10. Perhaps you could try AfD; I don't anticipate it would be a hard sell. It's worth noting, though, that both articles have substantial issues that need to be addressed just as much as this redundancy. Snow let's rap 20:31, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Overdue RFC closure review
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Guy recently closed an RFC at Talk:Noël Coward about whether to include an infobox, finding a rough consensus in favor of inclusion [39]. Five hours later, We hope opened a new RfC on the same question [40]. !Voters in the new RfC (SchroCat, Cassianto, Tim riley, Ssilvers,Dr. Blofeld, Jaguar), all of whom had !voted against inclusion in the first RfC, unanimously opposed inclusion, and Tim Riley removed the infobox [41]. I !voted in the first RfC in favor of inclusion, and objected that this new RfC violated WP:FORUMSHOP and Wikipedia:Closing discussions#Challenging other closures [42]. (My comment was removed by Cassianto [43].)
Cassianto, Tim Riley, and Smeat75 defended the new outcome on the basis that the previous RfC was closed incorrectly. SchroCat challenged the closure on Guy's talk page [44], and Guy stood by his decision [45]. Per the instructions of WP:Closing discussions, the next step in challenging the close should have been to request a review here; I am hereby doing so. FourViolas (talk) 17:35, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- "
Guy stood by his decision
": not entirely correct, as he said he was out and about. He did not make any substantive comment about whether he stood by his decision or not, but I am working on the assumption that he will look at it more closely when he returns. – SchroCat (talk) 17:50, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- "
There was no consensus to add an infobox. When at least half a dozen people oppose one being added you can't call that "consensus". Wikipedia isn't a vote. If it had been an AFD it would have been closed as a "no consensus" to add. Guy is a pro-infobox editor, I remember his name from past discussions. Why are we arguing over a silly infobox on featured articles when there's 5 million other articles badly needing development? And why do we keep picking on Tim and Brian, two of our very best editors?♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:39, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- This is WP:GAMING, pure-and-simple. The new RFC ran for four hours before a consensus was declared by an involved editor (RFC start, RFC end; note Tim riley's earlier !vote). FWIW, I think the original RFC should have been closed as "no consensus", but I absolutely disagree with the idea of a counter-RFC consisting of only the infobox opposers. Cassianto's removal of what could be construed as an oppose !vote is also a clear violation of WP:TPO. How can that be explained? clpo13(talk) 17:41, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- Considering the people who have breached TPO when I took the matter to the closing admin (and for which I was ridiculously knee-jerk blocked by an admin who didn't bother to look into the background before he blocked–and did so while leaving misleading Twinkle edit summaries), I really wouldn't push the TPO button today. - SchroCat (talk) 17:58, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
@Clpo, yes it should have been closed as a no consensus. It makes no difference, there's no consensus to add an infobox so it remains as it is. So point in wasting any more time.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:46, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- How it should have been closed is not how it was closed, though. This should be resolved by the closing administrator and not by gaming the system. clpo13(talk) 17:47, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed with Clpo13. Essentially, there was an RfC on whether an infobox should be added, Guy closed it as consensus to add an infobox. The group of regular editors were not happy, and had a discussion amongst themselves that lasted less than 6 hours before they decided it by themselves that the close was incorrect and reverted it. Regardless of whether the close was correct or not, this is still an attempt to game the system. It should be reverted, and discussion about the close can occur in the proper place, which ironically enough, appears to be here. jcc (tea and biscuits) 17:55, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- This whole close fucking stinks and the closer should be brought to account. CassiantoTalk 18:02, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) As far as I'm aware there wasn't a proper consensus in the discussion, even after it was canvassed by pro-infobox editors. JAGUAR 18:27, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- Cassianto, Dr. B et al - I'd seriously countenance waiting for the closing admin, Guy to return from his travels and reengage; I don't think a counter-RFC is the right process or likely to produce a decent solution. I believe I understand why feelings are high - for what it's worth, JzG's closing statement appeared to me to overly brief, confused in its communication, and not of the quality that I'd have expected from an experienced admin - but I don't believe this is helping. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:07, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- User:FourViolas-you are interested in rules regarding the RFC at the Noël Coward talk page, but you never notified any of the editors you mentioned here with {{subst:AN-notice}} as the large yellow banner with large, bold type indicates: "When you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page." We hope (talk) 18:16, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, I meant this to be a review of the close, not an incident report. But I'll go notify those who haven't commented. FourViolas (talk) 18:18, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- User:FourViolas-you are interested in rules regarding the RFC at the Noël Coward talk page, but you never notified any of the editors you mentioned here with {{subst:AN-notice}} as the large yellow banner with large, bold type indicates: "When you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page." We hope (talk) 18:16, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- I've reverted to the version that is the result of JzG's close. He's an uninvolved admin who closed a 2 week RFC. It's possible he closed it wrong, he is as capable of making mistakes as anyone else. But it would be anarchy if the result of disagreeing with an RFC close was to hold a "flash" RFC, and have someone involved implement it as a new consensus after 4 hours. You could literally never have a stable article, just a series of new flash RFC's. The flash RFC clouds the issue. The issue that should be discussed here is the appeal of JzG's RFC close, not a side-discussion on the flash RFC. The article has to stay in some state while the appeal of the close is going on, and the only reasonable, stable state is the close of the RFC closed by JzG. Patience. If it helps maintain the stabilty of the situation, I'll full protect the article while the discussion here is going on, but that would prevent any editing of the article by anyone, which seems suboptimal. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:23, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- I think you also need to understand that an editor DID attempt to discuss the subject with the closing admin, but was wrongly blocked by another admin, who mistook the use of the surname "Coward" for a personal attack against the closer. We hope (talk) 18:29, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- I hadn't seen that (reminds me of the "Kafkaesque" block), and I wish the admin had used a more clear unblock rationale, but this has literally nothing to do with whether the close should be overturned or not. Please, let's focus on that. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:35, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- I think you also need to understand that an editor DID attempt to discuss the subject with the closing admin, but was wrongly blocked by another admin, who mistook the use of the surname "Coward" for a personal attack against the closer. We hope (talk) 18:29, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
Admins: Please note Wikipedia:WikiProject Quality Article Improvement/Infobox (and the related Talk page), where editors have set up a WikiProject whose purpose is to force infoboxes into articles over the objections of the principal content contributors. Why would the closing admin give content contributors' opinions less credence than a band of editors who go around trying to force infoboxes into articles? It seems to me clearly a violation of the spirit of the Arbcom infobox case. Thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:19, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- I've protected the page for three days because of the reverting (Floquenbeam, we had an edit conflict), and I've asked Guy to re-open the RfC. RfCs are normally open for 30 days unless consensus is clear earlier. Circa 21 yes and 13 no isn't a clear consensus, and perhaps isn't a consensus at all to change a long-standing FA. Leaving it open for the full 30 days might settle it. SarahSV (talk) 18:39, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, this RfC should be re-opened. There clearly isn't a consensus, discussion was still taking place and it still had 16 days to run.Black Kite (talk) 19:42, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- No, it should have been reclosed as a no consensus. Another RFC is going to do nothing but worsen the situation and create more drama. There just will not be any real consensus to add one given the opposition. This is so embarrassing that this sort of thing can't be dealt with adequately. I'm not going to sit around bickering over it.. Time is precious, and sadly a lot of people here go out of their way to waste it. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:44, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- This wouldn't be a new RfC, simply letting the first one run for its allotted time. Certainly if I had to close it, I would have closed it as no consensus. But the fact is that it was still open and should have been left to run for its full 30 days (or until discussion had ceased). Black Kite (talk) 19:53, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oh OK, I guess 14 days is better than another 30 but it's still pretty pointless!♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:06, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- This wouldn't be a new RfC, simply letting the first one run for its allotted time. Certainly if I had to close it, I would have closed it as no consensus. But the fact is that it was still open and should have been left to run for its full 30 days (or until discussion had ceased). Black Kite (talk) 19:53, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- No, it should have been reclosed as a no consensus. Another RFC is going to do nothing but worsen the situation and create more drama. There just will not be any real consensus to add one given the opposition. This is so embarrassing that this sort of thing can't be dealt with adequately. I'm not going to sit around bickering over it.. Time is precious, and sadly a lot of people here go out of their way to waste it. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:44, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you, Black Kite, for making a reasoned and appropriate assessment here. This reinforces the notion that the closing administrator had ulterior motives. CassiantoTalk 20:20, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with Sarah and BK that re-opening this for another 2 weeks (for the typical 30 days total) is the easiest way out of the pickle. No need to question JzG's motivation, though. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:25, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
New CSD template notice
Just a heads up to all admins that patrol speedy deletions. Per this discussion the WP:F11 criterion has been updated. The seven day waiting period is now waived for images that have been tagged {{OTRS received}} for longer then 30 days. The criterion requires that an OTRS agent with permissions access check to ensure that there is no further ongoing conversation on the ticket before tagging the image. Since the normal F11 CSD tag has a seven day waiting period I have created a new one. It can be seen here: template:Db-no permission-OTRS. To work around the normal categorization of F11 images the template will automatically place the image into the category that is seven eight days old. Any suggestions are welcome. I will draw up a new user talk page notice as well when I have time tomorrow. After which I will begin to use it. --Majora (talk) 03:14, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- Just realized that seven days old is still not "deleteable". So I have bumped back the categorization by a day. --Majora (talk) 03:32, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Non-admin deletions in deletion log
I assume I'm missing a very simple answer here, but how is a non-admin deleting articles? See here here and here?--Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 20:33, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- Hey Ponyo, See Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Entries showing up in deletion log - NQ (talk) 20:38, 30 August 2016 (UTC)