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*'''Suggest''' (noting the substantial opposition to an actual XfD ban) a 3 month strict probation regarding his behaviour at XfDs, including a ban on ''any'' solicitication of anyone at all in any regard to any XfDs, as well as a bar on him engaging in any of the behaviours which were rightly noted at the RFC/U. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 22:47, 25 May 2012 (UTC) |
*'''Suggest''' (noting the substantial opposition to an actual XfD ban) a 3 month strict probation regarding his behaviour at XfDs, including a ban on ''any'' solicitication of anyone at all in any regard to any XfDs, as well as a bar on him engaging in any of the behaviours which were rightly noted at the RFC/U. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 22:47, 25 May 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' This proposal is vastly out of proportion to the outcome of the RfC/U, where there was nothing near a consensus for any ban at all. Renominating AfDs was also covered at the RfC/U, where, again, there was no consensus that there was a problem. As for posting on Sandstein's talk page, that was questionable although I did not see it as canvassing. In any event, proposing a 6 month ban because of that posting is vastly out of proportion to what happened. [[User:Logical Cowboy|Logical Cowboy]] ([[User talk:Logical Cowboy|talk]]) 23:01, 25 May 2012 (UTC) |
*'''Oppose''' This proposal is vastly out of proportion to the outcome of the RfC/U, where there was nothing near a consensus for any ban at all. Renominating AfDs was also covered at the RfC/U, where, again, there was no consensus that there was a problem. As for posting on Sandstein's talk page, that was questionable although I did not see it as canvassing. In any event, proposing a 6 month ban because of that posting is vastly out of proportion to what happened. [[User:Logical Cowboy|Logical Cowboy]] ([[User talk:Logical Cowboy|talk]]) 23:01, 25 May 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' Whilst TPH may well be a pitt-bull who requires a leash, this proposal requires a foundation on an incident. An examination of that foundation upon which you have rested your proposal will show those interested that it has insufficient merit at this time. Better to be patient waiting for something satisfactory to come along, rather than a false start like this proposal, which will fail. <span style="text-shadow:#c5C3e3 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em;">[[User:Penyulap|'''Penyulap''']]</span>[[User talk:Penyulap|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:green 0em 0.2em 0.02em;"> ☏</span>]] 23:05, 25 May 2012 (UTC) |
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Use the closure requests noticeboard to ask an uninvolved editor to assess, summarize, and formally close a Wikipedia discussion. Do so when consensus appears unclear, it is a contentious issue, or where there are wiki-wide implications (e.g. any change to our policies or guidelines).
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Administrative discussions
(Initiated 14 days ago on 5 September 2024) Conversation seems to have ended, consensus seems to be that the user is an issue, but no clear consensus on what to do about it. --Brocade River Poems (She/They) 02:48, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 12 days ago on 7 September 2024) Restored from archive. Admin closure requested. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:58, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- Done by StarMississippi. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 23:55, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
Place new administrative discussions above this line using a level 3 heading
Requests for comment
(Initiated 121 days ago on 22 May 2024) – RfC template was removed by a bot a few weeks ago, but this still needs a formal close. I am involved so I'd prefer to see someone else do it, particularly as I believe the discussion ended up endorsing my viewpoint. --Piotrus at Hanyang| reply here 03:17, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 109 days ago on 3 June 2024) Initial close has been overturned at review. A new close is required. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:36, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Surely someone wants to be taken to review and shouted at, even if just for the experience. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:23, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Anyone want a closer's barnstar? (okay but seriously maybe we should just panel close this one, if only to prevent any further disputes.) --Licks-rocks (talk) 11:46, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- Panel close is probably a good idea if we can get a panel together. Loki (talk) 19:35, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- Anyone want a closer's barnstar? (okay but seriously maybe we should just panel close this one, if only to prevent any further disputes.) --Licks-rocks (talk) 11:46, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 89 days ago on 22 June 2024) - I thank the Wikipedia community for being so willing to discuss this topic very extensively. Because 30 days have passed and requested moves in this topic area are already being opened (For reference, a diff of most recent edit to the conversation in question), I would encourage an uninvolved editor to determine if this discussion is ready for closure. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 22:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- (Also, apologies if I have done something incorrectly. This is my first time filing such a request.) AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 22:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- There is ongoing discussion there as to whether a closer for that discussion is necessary or desirable. I would suggest to wait and see how that plays out.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:58, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- This is dragging on ad nauseam. I suggest an admin closes this, possibly with the conclusion that there is no consensus to change. PatGallacher (talk) 17:50, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed. Also a discussion at Wikipedia:Discussions for discussion#Some holistic solution is needed to closing numerous move requests for names of royals, but that dates back to April. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- This is dragging on ad nauseam. I suggest an admin closes this, possibly with the conclusion that there is no consensus to change. PatGallacher (talk) 17:50, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- There is ongoing discussion there as to whether a closer for that discussion is necessary or desirable. I would suggest to wait and see how that plays out.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:58, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
Talk:La France Insoumise#RfC: How should the political position of La France Insoumise be described?
(Initiated 74 days ago on 7 July 2024) Discussion has already died down and the 30 days have elapsed. Uninvolved closure is requested. Thanks a lot! Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 21:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Chaotic Enby I was reviewing this for a close, but I wonder if reopening the RFC and reducing the number of options would help find a consensus. It seems like a consensus could be found between options A or D. Nemov (talk) 12:35, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- That could definitely work! Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 12:41, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Nemov It has been another month and the RfC still hasn't been closed (or restarted with fewer options), would you consider reviewing it again? Thanks a lot! Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 23:17, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Chaotic EnbyI've reopened the discussion with the narrowed choices. If you don't mind please ping the involved editors who participated in the RFC. Nemov (talk) 02:59, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
- Done, I've also pinged people in the discussions below, as at least one of them didn't know if the RfC was still open. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 11:08, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
- Done by Nemov. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:30, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Chaotic EnbyI've reopened the discussion with the narrowed choices. If you don't mind please ping the involved editors who participated in the RFC. Nemov (talk) 02:59, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 74 days ago on 8 July 2024). Ready for closing, last !vote was 12 July by looks of it. CNC (talk) 16:27, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 66 days ago on 15 July 2024) -sche (talk) 15:19, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- There have been only 5 !votes since end July (out of 50+) so this could be closed now. Selfstudier (talk) 10:23, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- +1 please close it thanks. NadVolum (talk) 13:49, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Anyone taking a look at this? Pretty please. Selfstudier (talk) 12:08, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 57 days ago on 24 July 2024) Discussion slowed. Last comment 13 August 2024. Moderately complex RfC with multiple options. Thank you in advance to the closer. JDiala (talk) 05:46, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 50 days ago on 31 July 2024) Requesting closure on this discussion which has not had a new comment in a week when excluding its brief archival. The discussion is lengthy and split into multiple sections. Note: The article and talk page are considered to be a contentious topic. --Super Goku V (talk) 09:33, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 45 days ago on 5 August 2024) Discussion has slowed. Last comment 23/08/2027. TarnishedPathtalk 04:44, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 44 days ago on 6 August 2024) Talk:Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples#RFC_Palestine Hi! calling for closers for this one, as well as interpretation of whether content should be placed back in in case of WP:NOCONSENSUS. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 02:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 44 days ago on 6 August 2024) Hello. Could an uninvolved editor please summarise and close this discussion. Thanks Melbguy05 (talk) 07:23, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
- Done though I'm not convinced it needed a close. Sincerely, Dilettante 20:02, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 41 days ago on 9 August 2024)
Wikipedia talk:Notability (species)#Proposal to adopt this guideline is WP:PROPOSAL for a new WP:SNG. The discussion currently stands at 503 comments from 78 editors or 1.8 tomats of text, so please accept the hot beverage of your choice ☕️ and settle in to read for a while. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 40 days ago on 10 August 2024) Hello. Please close this discussion. Prcc27 (talk) 23:05, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- This should be a straightforward close, but would prefer an uninvolved editor to close it. Thanks. Prcc27 (talk) 15:06, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 38 days ago on 12 August 2024) Discussion has slowed. Last comment 24/08/2024. TarnishedPathtalk 04:45, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 37 days ago on 13 August 2024) Discussion has been open for more than 30 days. I believe the result is pretty clear however am involved and another editor has objected to my interpretation of the consensus. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:44, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 34 days ago on 17 August 2024) Requesting immediate procedural close for Talk:Philippe Pétain#Rfc for Lede Image of Philippe Pétain, because it is blocked on a Wikipedia policy with legal implications that no one at the Rfc is qualified to comment on, namely U.S. copyright law about an image. At a minimum, it will require action at Commons about whether to delete an image, and likely they will have to consult Wikimedia legal for an interpretation in order to resolve the issue. Under current circumstances, it is a waste of editor time to leave the Rfc open, and is impossible to reliably evaluate by a closer, and therefore should be procedurally closed without assessment, the sooner the better. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 20:42, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- It's not appropriate to make an immediate procedural close in those circumstances. Wikipedians routinely make decisions about copyright, even those Wikipedians who aren't US attorneys. This is not a high-drama situation. However I'm starting to wonder if the RFC nominator might be on a crusade about our lede images for prominent WW2 figures, and if so, whether they might benefit from a sysop's advice and guidance about overusing our RFC process.—S Marshall T/C 09:16, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'll do this, although I'm going to do the other close I committed to first. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 16:56, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Compassionate727 FWIW the image was kept at Commons and here's a bit of a follow up on the copyright stuff discussed afterward.[1] Nemov (talk) 01:02, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'll do this, although I'm going to do the other close I committed to first. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 16:56, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 24 days ago on 26 August 2024) Greetings closing admins, I would like to request a closure of RfC discussion of Algeria Algeria RfC discussion as the discussion has stabilized and it is due for closure. --Potymkin (talk) 16:47, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Potymkin: It's not due for closure, as it's been open for 19 days not 30. The last comment was four days ago, at 14:05, 10 September 2024 (UTC), so I also don't think that it's stabilised. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:07, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- Not done Somebody else may request closure at the appropriate time. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:36, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 37 days ago on 13 August 2024) Last comment 20 days ago. Anomie⚔ 11:58, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
Place new discussions concerning RfCs above this line using a level 3 heading
Deletion discussions
V | Jun | Jul | Aug | Sep | Total |
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CfD | 0 | 0 | 8 | 44 | 52 |
TfD | 0 | 0 | 1 | 9 | 10 |
MfD | 0 | 0 | 2 | 4 | 6 |
FfD | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 |
RfD | 0 | 0 | 0 | 33 | 33 |
AfD | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
(Initiated 70 days ago on 11 July 2024) Steel1943 (talk) 21:26, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 69 days ago on 13 July 2024) Steel1943 (talk) 21:28, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 40 days ago on 10 August 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:41, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 31 days ago on 19 August 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:41, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 29 days ago on 21 August 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:29, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 20 days ago on 30 August 2024) Another easy one :) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 15:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 12 days ago on 7 September 2024) I think this is an easy one, both to close and to implement – {{db-xfd}} is your friend for non-admins :D HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:29, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 8 days ago on 11 September 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 16:52, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
Place new discussions concerning XfDs above this line using a level 3 heading
Other types of closing requests
(Initiated 288 days ago on 6 December 2023) a merge discussion related to Electrogravitics and Biefeld–Brown effect now without comments for 4 months; requesting a close by any uninvolved editor. Klbrain (talk) 20:34, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 137 days ago on 5 May 2024) Discussion went on for 3 months and seems to have stalled. 35.0.62.211 (talk) 16:38, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 115 days ago on 28 May 2024) Latest comment: 3 days ago, 79 comments, 37 people in discussion. Closing statement may be helpful for future discussions. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Doing...— Frostly (talk) 22:35, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Frostly Are you still planning on doing this? Soni (talk) 16:57, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Soni, yes - have drafted close and will post by the end of today. Thanks! — Frostly (talk) 17:56, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- I wanted to note that this is taking slightly longer than expected, but it is at the top of my priority and will be completed soon. — Frostly (talk) 05:14, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Frostly Just checking, would you like someone else to help with this? Soni (talk) 07:31, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I wanted to note that this is taking slightly longer than expected, but it is at the top of my priority and will be completed soon. — Frostly (talk) 05:14, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Soni, yes - have drafted close and will post by the end of today. Thanks! — Frostly (talk) 17:56, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Frostly: also checking in. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:33, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Voorts and Soni, thanks for the pings! I've unfortunately been in the hospital for the past week but am now feeling better. I apologize for the long delay in putting out the close and appreciate your messages! Best, — Frostly (talk) 03:59, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm sorry to hear that; a week-long hospitalization is not fun. But, I'm glad that you're feeling better. Best, voorts (talk/contributions) 19:06, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ping @Frostly again (I saw you've been editing Commons). Hope your still better, and if you don't feel like doing this one anymore, just let people know. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:02, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Voorts and Soni, thanks for the pings! I've unfortunately been in the hospital for the past week but am now feeling better. I apologize for the long delay in putting out the close and appreciate your messages! Best, — Frostly (talk) 03:59, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Frostly Are you still planning on doing this? Soni (talk) 16:57, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 13:32, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 113 days ago on 30 May 2024) Contentious merge discussion requiring uninvolved closer. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:35, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 103 days ago on 8 June 2024) Since much of the discussion centers on the title of the article rather than its content, the closer should also take into account the requested move immediately below on the talk page. Smyth (talk) 15:17, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- If the closer finds "no consensus", I have proposed this route in which a discussion on merger and RM can happen simultaneously to give clearer consensus.VR (Please ping on reply) 20:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 81 days ago on 30 June 2024) Proposal to split RS/PS. Discussion has died down. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:39, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 74 days ago on 8 July 2024) – Editors would feel more comfortable if an uninvolved closer provided a clear statement about whether a consensus to WP:SPLIT exists, and (if so) whether to split this list into two or three lists. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:06, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 39 days ago on 12 August 2024) No comments on two weeks; consensus on the merge is unclear, particularly for Effects of Hurricane Isabel in Delaware. 107.122.189.12 (talk) 19:29, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 34 days ago on 16 August 2024) Discussion has slowed. No comments in a few days. TarnishedPathtalk 02:12, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 24 days ago on 26 August 2024) I'd like a closure of this discussion, which was preceded by this discussion:Talk:Cobra_Crack#MOS:ITAL Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:50, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 23 days ago on 27 August 2024) Needs a closed from an experienced user. Cremastra (talk) 11:48, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 13 days ago on 6 September 2024) Discussion has stopped. Not a snow close so needs the kind support of an independent closer please. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:25, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
Place new discussions concerning other types of closing requests above this line using a level 3 heading
Community ban proposal for editor Echigo mole
Nobody Ent 02:14, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Fellow Wikipedians, It is time that I now propose a community ban proposal for Echigo mole (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Since 2011, he's been repeatedly creating sockpuppets as per here to evade his block over a 1 year period, and It appears that he's just egregiously trolling, disrupting lots of Arbcom cases, and to many, he's just another disruptive troll and nuisance on this project. Now I believe the community needs to step up and collectively say "you're done here" through establishing consensus for a full ban on him. Khvalamde : Argue, Scream, Chat, Yell or Shout 01:06, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support: Due to the nominator of this ban.
- Support on procedural grounds. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 01:30, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Maybe I'm missing something, but Echigo has been indeffed. As I understand it, an indefinite block is more "effective" than a ban. See WP:BP.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:19, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- You are, but that's ok :) Banning doesn't change the fact that he is indef blocked as well. Banning means the person is no longer part of the community (indef blocked people still are). See WP:BANBLOCKDIFF. Unofficially, banning offers more teeth in reverting and dealing with the user. A single admin can't undo a ban, only a block. And there is the statement part of it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 01:30, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Just to let you know, this is the seventh time I am reporting an editor on ANI to get them banned. Khvalamde : Argue, Scream, Chat, Yell or Shout 01:42, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support: per WP:BANBLOCKDIFF. JoeSperrazza (talk) 01:38, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- This is nuts, these constant ban votes for editors that have been indef blocked forever are 100% pointless. And no, it isn't that I don't understand the difference, it is that banning Echo-whoever, and all the other trolls and puppeteers and vandals, isn't going to change one single thing for anyone. No admin was ever going to unblock him unilaterally. No one was ever going to get nailed for reverting him because he wasn't banned. No one considered him part of the community. We're not making any "statement" whatsoever. The only conceivable benefit is the warm glow in the belly from a good 2 minute hate, and we shouldn't be encouraging that. Khvalamde, I will pay you $5, a barnstar, and one free pass to say a rude word to someone here without getting blocked (or, if you are blocked by someone else, I'll unblock you immediately) if you just promise to never bring another ban discussion to this board. Please, I am begging. Stop this ridiculousness. --Floquenbeam (talk) 02:32, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Ah, thank you Buick Century Driver, that's an obvious one I forgot to list. There is no chance that the ban is going to convince them to go away. If anything, it might make them want to stick around to prove the ban is toothless. --Floquenbeam (talk) 02:38, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- This is a somewhat odd statement to make, offering to reward a user with a barnstar to stop making frivolous proposals. While I sympathize with your suffering I question the reasoning of giving community rewards to stop a user from making frivolous proposals. --98.220.198.49 (talk) 03:54, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- Personally I have nothing to gain from this. I surmise that Khvalamde was personally involded and this could be a last resort, but I could care less if Echigo mole comes back and makes good edits. Of course if the activity is vandalisim the best way to stop them is to protect the page they're targeting. Once they know they can't edit the page, they'll probably give up on what they were doing. –BuickCenturyDriver 02:54, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- To make sure I'm being clear, I'm not saying that we shouldn't ban them because they might become rehabilitated. Semi-protection isn't going to work on serial sockpuppeteers, it would be useless. But so is community banning them. We shouldn't have these votes all the time because they make no difference except to waste time and give a false sense of security. Echo-whatsis (along with the other VFB's here recently) is already defacto banned; there is no benefit to making it a formal ban. --Floquenbeam (talk) 03:04, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Personally I have nothing to gain from this. I surmise that Khvalamde was personally involded and this could be a last resort, but I could care less if Echigo mole comes back and makes good edits. Of course if the activity is vandalisim the best way to stop them is to protect the page they're targeting. Once they know they can't edit the page, they'll probably give up on what they were doing. –BuickCenturyDriver 02:54, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Though I'm not one to participate in these discussions, I seriously doubt this is going to keep this person away from the site. If efforts were made to steer this person away from his or her disruptive behaviour and they ignored, then there is nothing I can do to avert this person's fate. If not, then I strongly suggest we mitigate the block for 1 year and suggest he or she can return in the future. I also strongly belive that bans should be handled by the arbcom. They're experts in policy and usually wind up giving a fair sanction. Often these bans lead to nothing more than an endless game of cat and mouse with the user and the time it takes to keep them off could have been used to improve articles. –BuickCenturyDriver 02:34, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support - I see absolutley no harm in converting a de facto ban into a concrete one. If there's even a scintilla of a possible benefit in doing so, then it's a good thing. These are people for whom the collective good faith has totally run out, and I see value in the community affirming that -- or, if the proposed ban fails, in the community's realization that there is still some perceived value in keeping the possibility of the editor returning alive. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:42, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- BMK, what scintilla of a possible benefit would that be? What possible benefit is there? I think it's far more likely that being banned gives them more incentive to mess with us. If anything, there is a scintilla of possible harm. The only benefit this thread will bring is the small joy I get from typing the fun not-used-often-enough word "scintilla" multiple times. --Floquenbeam (talk) 02:50, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Floquenbeam: One benefit is that the edits of banned editors can be removed on sight, which is not true of the edits of block-evading indef-blocked users. As for incentive, given his record, Echigo mole already has sufficient incentive to mess with us, ignoring him isn't going to change that, nor is banning him. -- I think Mathsci can confirm that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:58, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Also, banning isn't a death sentence, things can change, community bans can be removed by the community, should there be a change of heart and a sincere demonstration of having turned over a new leaf. There's no particular reason to avoid an appropriate ban simply because it's a more restrive sanction than an indef block. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:02, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Floquenbeam: One benefit is that the edits of banned editors can be removed on sight, which is not true of the edits of block-evading indef-blocked users. As for incentive, given his record, Echigo mole already has sufficient incentive to mess with us, ignoring him isn't going to change that, nor is banning him. -- I think Mathsci can confirm that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:58, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- BMK, what scintilla of a possible benefit would that be? What possible benefit is there? I think it's far more likely that being banned gives them more incentive to mess with us. If anything, there is a scintilla of possible harm. The only benefit this thread will bring is the small joy I get from typing the fun not-used-often-enough word "scintilla" multiple times. --Floquenbeam (talk) 02:50, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- An indef blocked editor can't make edits, so what good does the revert on sight protocol do?Nobody Ent 09:54, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Easier to enforce - editors do not need to spend quite as much time dealing with the disruption caused. As a one-off thing, it's no significant difference, but when it happens often, it can be worthwhile. Ncmvocalist (talk) 11:31, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- An indef blocked editor can't make edits, so what good does the revert on sight protocol do?Nobody Ent 09:54, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose – Floquenbeam has a good point. Why have a ban or block when said user can very easily step around that? See User:Grundle2600, User:CentristFiasco, and User:Ryan kirkpatrick for good examples of that. --MuZemike 07:00, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:BANBLOCKDIFF -- user is already banned (defacto) and Floequenbeam's point is spot on. Nobody Ent 10:00, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose, not the ban, but the process of seeking a formal confirmation for it just for form's sake. We have a perfectly adequate policy on this: per WP:BAN, users who get themselves indef-blocked and then continue with a persistent pattern of block-evading sock disruption, already are considered de facto banned. The recent fashion of bringing up all these cases for formal reconfirmation of the ban has the effect of watering down this good old rule and spreading the myth that the old principle of "a banned user is any user who no admin would ever want to unblock" somehow is no longer valid. There is no difference between a formally enacted ban and a de facto ban of this sort, except that theoretically the threshold for an admin to try to override it and unblock a user would be lower for the latter type. But in most cases this possibility is remote and any unblock would quickly be overturned with a massive troutslap, so it doesn't really matter. For this reason I basically agree with Floquenbeam. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:09, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Personally, I think the opposes are less than convincing as to the merits of whether or not Echigo is considered banned. I am a little more than appalled at the logic that we shouldn't ban or block an user just because they can find a way around it; why bother having useful edits made to the encyclopedia if all the work are inevitably going to be damaged by vandals, tendentious editors, and other users who should not be editing Wikipedia? While I appreciate the frustration regarding why should we necessarily confirm a ban from so long ago just because of some recent socking, that does not really warrant an oppose to this ban because it does nothing more than confuse/complicate matters - an oppose would mean there is some willingness to unblock the user (so a ban is not warranted), while your rationales apparently contradict that as there is no clear support from you regarding the ban itself. If you are getting annoyed with an user unnecessarily bringing up ban discussions on an ongoing basis regarding indef blocked users where official bans are not necessary (in light of the defacto bans), comment on their talk. Ncmvocalist (talk) 11:28, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support - when too much editor time is unnecessarily being wasted on cleaning up, I am not going to oppose efforts to cut down on that - purely because some admins fail to appreciate the difference this will have on other editors who do not have the luxury of extra buttons. I also don't agree that this is the appropriate discussion for "watering down our normal practices", so I am changing my comment to clarify my support for the ban. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:15, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose. I tend to think "what's it going to hurt to have a formal confirmation", but FPaS' point about this watering down our normal practices is convincing — this ban won't have a practical benefit and is part of a pattern that's not going in a good direction. Community ban proposals should be for people who aren't already (1) blocked indefinitely, and (2) obviously blocked permanently. Nyttend (talk) 12:53, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support ban due to abusive sockpuppetry. And as sick as some people are of seeing ban discussions I'm equally as sick of seeing them endlessly bitching about it. It's been discussed a million times. A community ban requires the consensus of the community to reverse, not just promises to be good to a single administrator. And the entire "de facto" bollocks is an utter debacle as I knew it would be. Every time there is a ban proposal there is this endless bullshit about "de facto this" and "indef is fine, nothing changes with a ban" that. Clearly it is different or there would be no such thing as a "ban", admins would just block people and leave it at that. The fact that ban proposals repeatedly come up indicates that you're not going to get your way and ban proposals will not stop unless you either eliminate the concept of a community ban or you change the way Wikipedia works, namely via discussion and consensus. If you don't want to participate in ban discussions nobody is holding your feet to the fire. But quit derailing every ban discussion with this endless bitching and griping, it is FAR MORE DISRUPTIVE than any ban discussion has ever been. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 20:11, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose. Per Floquenbeam. Thanks, Dennis, for the explanation and pointer. Could we make it any more complicated?--Bbb23 (talk) 00:14, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Oppose What this section fails to address is why the ban was so merited in the first place to result in further measures. To me this seems a case of Double Jeopardy in wanting to provide additional punishments after the fact. And if that is to occur, then in my opinion there should be at least a token analysis of the original discipline so we can assure ourselves that (a) it was warranted, and (b) all possible measures need to be instituted to stop the user. A glance at the diffs provided shows little more than an affinity for Grunsky Matrices (whatever those are). For me to assume more discipline is required I would need to feel assured the original discipline itself was warranted, let alone that more is necessary. To my mind that proof has yet to be presented and without it this would be a hasty, premature, and careless rush to judgment which I will not support. --98.220.198.49 (talk) 03:16, 21 May 2012 (UTC)Block-evading sockpuppet's comments struck. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:04, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Break
- Strong support for community ban of Echigo mole/A.K.Nole Echigo mole started out life as A.K.Nole. He has wikihounded me since 2009 first as A.K.Nole and then using the account Quotient group. (On Wikipedia Review, he had the account Greg, if I remember rightly.) At that stage he was unwilling to admit to being an alternative account, but Shell Kinney interceded in 2010, corresponding with him by email, and he admitted to being an alternative account of A.K.Nole and agreed to stop wikihounding me. That promise did not last. He subsequently edited as:
- Taciki Wym (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Holding Ray (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Julian Birdbath (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Zarboublian (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
He trolled on arbcom pages using ipsocks in the range 212.183.1.1/16. The edits he made relating to me are catalogued here:
That editing was clarified by the arbitration committee in January 2011, when it was unclear whether these edits were by A.K.Nole or Mikemikev. Elen of the Roads informed me that they were by A.K.Nole and the ip range was blocked for 3 months by Shell Kinney along with the above named sockpuppets. The other sockpuppet accounts can be found on the investigation page and include the following accounts:
- Echigo mole (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Krod Mandoon (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- A.B.C.Hawkes (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Glenbow Goat (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Laura Timmins (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Old Crobuzon (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Reginald Fortune (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Tryphaena (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- William Hickey (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Ansatz (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Southend sofa (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- The Wozbongulator (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
Since December 2011 they switched from vodaphone to the ip ranges 94.196.1.1/16 and 94.197.1.1/16. The diffs of all the edits related to me were described during the current arbcom review. That information was gathered up to 13 April, but there have been about 30 edits since then and several ipsocks blocked by either arbitrators or administrators.
- Edits in the range 94.196.1.1/16 : [2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23] [24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32][33][34][35][36]
- Edits in the range 94.197.1.1/16 [37][38][39][40][41][42][43][44][45][46][47][48][49][50][51][52][53][54][55][56][57][58][59][60][61][62][63][64][65]
This person follows my edits and pretends to have expert mathematical knowledge (they are barely at a second year undergraduate level in mathematics, probably only have done a course in computer science, and are generally clueless about any mathematics that is graduate level or beyond). They troll on arb com pages, arbcom clerk talk pages and arbitrator talk pages. Instead of disrupting wikipedia to prove a point, MuZemike could have attended to the outstanding checkuser case (Krod Mandoon) which Courcelles dealt with by indefinitely blocking the account and removing his trolling edits on the Requests for amendment page. This user has worked out my real life identity and has attempted to out me in various places. Amalthea has suggested that a Long Term Abuse file be prepared for this editor. It would not look very different from the above, but I would be cautious in describing the way in which this wikihounder goes about outing me. I have to be continually vigilant. Having said I would support a community ban, the LTA is more helpful. I do know of one community banned editor who is editing through another account. At the moment it is not worth reporting, since his editing patterns are not disruptive (he has started university in a new location and that I would guess is more suited to his personality). Mathsci (talk) 07:54, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Echigo mole/A.K.Nole has now started to troll here (what a surprise).[66][67] But all his edits repeat themselves ad nauseam, each one claiming to be from a new person. Wikipedia does not work like that. The edits are instantly recognizable because of the standard IP ranges used and their dreary repetitive content. WP:DUCK and WP:DENY apply in this case. Mathsci (talk) 15:27, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Strongly support. The user's record is appalling. We don't need this kind of disruption. Prioryman (talk) 09:14, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Oppose. I looked at the diffs and user's edits[68] briefly and couldn't understand what the issue was. Perhaps you could show more clearly which edits they made originally that were so objectionable? All I saw was a potentially unhealthy interest in discussing esoteric mathematical subjects with you. To convince me the original ban itself was warranted, let alone that more discipline is required, I will need to see specifics as to how they acted rudely. I did not even see where you asked them to stop talking to you, which to me would show this was stalking as you claim. This long list of diffs needs to more concisely pinpoint where abuse occurred for me to acknowledge the original ban was even necessary, let alone a more stringent action. Clearly discipline isn't deterring them anyway so we might as well make sure the original decision was correct rather than making a careless judgment which will only encourage them further to oppose it by suggesting careless injustice. --98.220.198.49 (talk) 03:49, 21 May 2012 (UTC)Block-evading sockpuppet's comments struck. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:04, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Question. This [69] appears to be by DWaterson (talk · contribs), who registered in 2005. Is Mathsci quite sure that this is another sockpuppet User:Echigo mole? Could we see the SPI please? 94.197.77.227 (talk) 16:15, 23 May 2012 (UTC)block evading ipsock's edits struck- comment was restored by blocked ipsock 94.197.34.71 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)Mathsci (talk) 03:28, 24 May 2012 (UTC)- There was a zero missing from the end of the link: [70]. Peter E. James (talk) 23:12, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose as ineffective, and per Floquenbeam. User is already de facto banned. Formalising it as a community ban is a bureaucratic process that provides no additional security or protection and no additional deterrent to the offender. The notion that a community ban would prevent an errant admin from unblocking the user where a de facto ban wouldn't is untested in this instance and is an attempt to protect against a possible outcome that will likely never occur. If an admin unblocks this user unilaterally, then there is a case to discuss a community ban, otherwise this process is needless red-tape time-wasting. I would also suggest Khvalamde refrain from filing these types of requests in future until such time as the distinction between a community and de facto ban becomes necessary (not simply desirable). – NULL ‹talk›
‹edits› 01:42, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should read what I wrote a little more carefully. Checkusers such as Amalthea have already suggested that an entry be prepared for Echigo mole at WP:LTA, as I have written. Mathsci (talk) 08:02, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Doesn't matter Mathsci, the current mob trend here is that ban discussions are annoying, so they're voting oppose to prove a WP:POINT. The truly idiotic thing is that the so called "de facto" ban is now void. Since admins here have now voted in opposition to a ban, it can be argued that an admin may potentially be willing to unblock this serial socker/vandal, and a "de facto" ban is only in effect as long as no admins are willing to unblock. Stupid, stupid people. Instead of some community ban discussions you instead have an administrative mess and endless kb of debate. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 14:58, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should read what I wrote a little more carefully. Checkusers such as Amalthea have already suggested that an entry be prepared for Echigo mole at WP:LTA, as I have written. Mathsci (talk) 08:02, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Comment It would be as well to be cautious blocking or banning on the unsupported word of just one aggrieved editor. Mathsci may or may not be correct in his assertions, but the fact remains that no other editor, administrator or arbitrator has supported those claims. In the opposite direction, let us consider
- User:Mikemikev was community-banned [71] on the strength of IP edits that Mathsci noted as "very likely" Mikemikev, "all my checkuser requests have been confirmed", "the editing style confirms the editor" [oddly, Mathsci noted that the IP was a different location and computer to Mikemike -- how did he know that?]. No SPI or other evidence was presented. Mathsci now rather oddly descrbies this as "it was unclear whether these edits were by A.K.Nole or Mikemikev". He was veryt clear at the time. Sadly, as he admits, he was wrong, and having tagged a whole range of IPs as Mikemikev [72], then had to retag them as A.K.Nole [73], cancel Mikemikev [74] and then again as Echigo Mole [75] (which of the three was it really?). Of course anyone can make a mistake, but this one appears to have led to the wrong person being community-banned.
- In the opposite direction, Mathsci confidently tagged User:Comicania as A.K.Nole [76] and then decided a few days later that he must be Mikemikev [77] after all.
- Mathsci is fond of referring to checkusers and arbitrators who have given him special insider information. Indeed, retired arbitraqtor Shell Kinney was investigated by ArbComm for that. But that insider information does not always appear to be accurate. Mathsci has also identified retired admin User:Matilda as A.K.Nole [78].
- Mathsci claims that his opponents know no mathematics. Sadly, it had to be explained to Mathsci that Quotient Group was right and he was wrong on the question of what a semigroup was, by indeopendent and authoritative contributors Hans Adler, Jim and Charles Matthews [79]. Mathsci perhaps is not always right even on his own ground.
- Mathsci repeats here comments that he keeps in an alternate account [80] (why?). On that page are listed other editors, not mentioned above, whom he confidently asserts to be sockpuppets. Since he has linked to that page here, he needs to substantiate those allegations or, better, remove the page.
- I think it is abundantly clear that while Mathsci undoubtedly has issues with many users, some of whom are listed here, the community really needs to see actual evidence, from an impartial and authoritative source, before it can act. It has already made one major mistake on the basis of Mathsci's over-enthusiastic assertions and over-reliance on WP:DUCK. It really should not make another. Leon Gonsalez (talk) 19:12, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- And whose sock are you? - Burpelson AFB ✈ 19:39, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- So you go woth the argument that anyone who disagrees with you is some kind of sock-puppet then? Perhaps it would be more helpful to the community to address the objective issues such as: why was Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of A.K.Nole created by Mathsci and populated entirely on his own initiative and without support from any SPI? Why did Mathsci edit war to try to place a user in good standing (alluded to in my previous post) into that category? Why should the community go entirely by the unsupported word one one editor who has already been shown to have made serious mistakes in this area? Leon Gonsalez (talk) 21:05, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps also worth mentioning that most of Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Echigo mole was poplulated by Mathsci before bringing any SPI, if at all. Most of the IPs and some of the named users, such as Southend sofa, Laura Timmuins, Glenbow Goat, A.B.C.Hawkes were explicitly not found to be sockpuppets of Echigo mole. Tryphaena was debatable and indeed debated between checkusers. Mathsci went ahead and tagged them anyway, rather than leaving it to admins and checkusers who knew what they were doing. He airily alluded to ArbComm, presumably the same person who told him that A.K.Nole was a sock of Matilda. The lesson is that Mathsci's unsupported judgement here simply cannot be relied on. He has been, or believes himself to have been, hassled by sockpuppets and naturally identifies all his opponents with the putative puppeteer. It's very natural, it's just not a sound basis for the community to act on. Leon Gonsalez (talk) 21:19, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- And whose sock are you? - Burpelson AFB ✈ 19:39, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Treatment of de-facto-banned users
Perhaps we should look for a more general solution to this issue of de-facto-banned users. As the thread above shows, there is, on the one hand, the long-standing practice, enshrined in WP:BAN, of treating indef-blocked users with persistent disruptive sock habits as de facto banned. On the other hand, there is perhaps a legitimate feeling of insecurity among some users confronted with the ugly task of cleaning up after such users, because without a formal ban decision they don't feel confident they can safely invoke the 3RR exemption while dealing with the socks, or they feel they might less easily find admin support for getting them blocked, etc. However, as Floq's comment shows, some of us have misgivings about the trend of having a growing number of such cases brought up here for confirmation merely for form's sake.
Maybe we should think of a simpler alternative to solve both problems? How about we add a "de facto" section to the official list of banned users at WP:BANNED? Any admin could add a user name there if (a) the user has been indef-blocked for a longish period; (b) there has been a significant, persistent pattern of disruptive block evasion; (c) the reasons for the block are such that the block appears likely to remain permanent. On adding a name to the list, the admin would merely give a brief notification to WP:AN, without the need for a formal confirmation through a !vote (but an AN discussion about the user's status could of course be held if there are objections). The listing would serve the purpose of giving other editors a formal assurance that socks of this user can be treated with full "banned means banned" force, and it would also be a signal to other admins asking them not to consider unblocks lightly and without prior consensus. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:49, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support as a good solution to the issue (although this solution is far too logical and practical for me to expect it to be implemented by this community). Sven Manguard Wha? 15:29, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Can someone give me an example of an editor getting in trouble for reverting a de facto banned but not de jure banned vandal, puppeteer, or troll? I have never seen this happen. We remove the edits of block-evading indef-blocked but not-officially-banned users all the time. Who has ever tried to revert Echigo mole, for example, and been stymied or threatened because someone said "Echigo mole isn't banned"?
If that happens, then de jure banning makes sense; but I don't think it happens. The only time banning makes a difference for reverting all edits is when someone who is indef blocked is making edits that some people want to be able to revert, and others don't. But that is not the case with de facto banned vandals, socks, and trolls that get brought up in votes for banning so frequently.
If the fear of a 3RR block for reverting a de facto banned editor is driving this, wouldn't it be much simpler to just change the wording of WP:EW to say that reverts of de facto banned editors is exempt too? That would certainly match current practice, anyway. Better than another process, IMHO. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:31, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)What's to change? WP:NOT3RR already lists "indefinitely blocked accounts." Nobody Ent 15:48, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oh. (pause) Nevermind. I don't think it used to say that. Then yes, I don't see a need for anything more. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:55, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)What's to change? WP:NOT3RR already lists "indefinitely blocked accounts." Nobody Ent 15:48, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support per Sven Manguard; this proposal does seem to sort out a large chunk of the problem. As to the alternative "change the wording of EW" proposal suggested after that, imho, the same problem would exist: there is too much of a grey line as to whether (and the point at which) editors can actually consider certain users as de-facto banned - with admin support. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:51, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- What's gray? Open the users block log -- if they're indef'd as a sock they're de-facto banned and their edits can be reverted. Nobody Ent 15:52, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- For a start, that understanding is not quite right. An indefinite block for being a sock does not automatically mean the user is defacto banned, at least from my reading of sockpuppetry, blocking, banning and administrator policies. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:58, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Also, although you have made this change to sockpuppetry policy since my comment, I don't think that quite cuts it either. I can see a situation where an editor (who evades a particular block made by a certain admin) proceeds to make constructive edits; in that case, even though the blocked user should theoretically wait for the official unblock to be granted, it does not mean that a reversion of the constructive edits is permitted by default. In fact, a flawed original block may be what led the user to appeal in that misguided way. The distinction between that user, and a banned user, is that only after careful consideration, the community have deemed that the unconstructive edits of the banned user outweigh the positive contributions the banned user may/will produce - which is why any edits by that user may be reverted on the spot. I am of the view that enacting Fut Perf's proposal may produce a more meaningful outcome in terms of settling this issue. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:54, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- For a start, that understanding is not quite right. An indefinite block for being a sock does not automatically mean the user is defacto banned, at least from my reading of sockpuppetry, blocking, banning and administrator policies. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:58, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Comment - I have reservations about using something like "de facto" banning as acceptable, because there is always the unlikely but possible chance that, for instance, someone who is apparently a new sockpuppet isn't a sockpuppet. The legal system had similar problems with executing people who were later found innocent, for example. Having said that, I do think that it makes sense to have some sort of confirmation of "de facto" banned users. Maybe a rather unfortunately legalistic vote to formally ban a list of "de facto" banned editors on a somewhat regular basis, like every three months, might work best. This would give individuals who are not sockpuppets a chance to maybe build up a case before the axe falls on them. At the same time, it would help admins who hesitate to perhaps go beyond what they see as being clear in policy regarding "de facto" banned users have the question cleared up for them. John Carter (talk) 17:37, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Sorta support in that it reduces, but does not eliminate the problem. The problem can be eliminated by not bothering to have these discussions about such obvious cases, but OK, fine, if someone wants to create a list, as long as the list contains a phrase which says that not being on the list doesn't mean anything, than fine. In other words, the existance of a list of de-facto banned users does not mean that a person not on the list is not also de facto banned. That is, disruptive users who continue to be a disruptive force continue to be treated exactly like every other banned user regardless of any discussion or placement on a list or anything else. The list is fine, and if it can reduce these discussions, fine, but that doesn't mean that we should suddenly stop reverting disruptive users on sight merely because some pointless bureaucratic event has not occured first. --Jayron32 17:39, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose - The "De Facto" crap needs to be destroyed with fire. As long as it exists, people will spend endles kb arguing over what it means, who can tag as "de facto" banned, etc. And "De Facto" banned is nothing different from an indef block meaning any admin can come along and unblock them while a community or arbcom ban can only be overturned by community consensus or via Arbcom. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 20:14, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- If a user who is blocked is evading the block, they can and should be treated as a de facto banned user. To take any other approach is to encourage block evasion. Rather than creating a new list or having these long discussions again and agin, we should just make this clear in the policy so we don't need to do either of those things. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:49, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose Burpelson's point is a very good one: when a single admin can undo a "de facto" ban, and the boundaries of what is and isn't a de facto ban can be endlessly argued about, the community ban provides a straightforward statement of the editor's staus, one that can't be argued away, can't be undone by a single admin having a bad judgment day (it does happen occasionally), and requires the voice of the community to overturn. Along with the increased latitutde to revert edits, these are concrete benefits to continuing the institution of the community ban, and not undercutting it by refusing to implement it for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with the actions and behavior of the subject editor. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:07, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose on the basis that our policies already sufficiently address available options. I think a better solution would be to recommend that before filing for a community ban on a de facto banned editor, the filer should justify with evidence why the de facto ban needs to be upgraded to a community ban. "An admin unilaterally unblocked this user" is valid justification. "An admin might unilaterally unblock this user in the future" is not. – NULL ‹talk›
‹edits› 01:46, 25 May 2012 (UTC) - Support per Jayron. As long as there's a note at the top of the list which explains that de facto banned is not de jure banned. Anything that can help reduce the amount of bureaucracy that exists around here, which we should all remember Wikipedia is not. elektrikSHOOS (talk) 01:53, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Topic ban discussion, Hrafn
Hrafn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Users being notified of this discussion: User_talk:Goo2you, User_talk:Maiorem, User_talk:Mthoodhood, User_talk:John_lilburne, User_talk:Kenatipo, User_talk:John_J._Bulten, User:Hrafn. Unscintillating (talk) 00:59, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Arbcom decision
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Civility enforcement#Etiquette states,
2) Wikipedia's code of conduct is one of the five pillars of Wikipedia that all editors should adhere to. Wikipedia editors are expected to behave reasonably and calmly in their interactions with other users, to keep their cool when editing, and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Administrators are expected to adhere to this at a higher standard. Unseemly conduct—including, but not limited to, edit-warring, personal attacks, lack of respect for other editors, failure to work towards consensus, disrupting Wikipedia to make a point, offensive language (including rude, offensive, derogatory, and insulting terms—whether in English, a language other than English, or using invented terms), trolling, harassment, gaming the system, and failure to assume good faith are all inconsistent with Wikipedia etiquette. Editors should not respond to such behavior in kind; concerns regarding the actions of other users should be addressed in the appropriate forums.
Passed 10 to 0, 02:11, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Evidence
- Evidence of lack of respect for another editor, at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive133#William Lane Craig,
Most notable is user User:Hrafn who began his involvement in this article since 26 May 2011, and has repeatedly deleted important information from the article with such reasons given as"Rm: WP:OR that is NOT IN THE CITED SOURCES!"despite not being familiar with the source in question;"UTTERLY worthless sources on UTTERLY unimportant website"...00:25, 16 September 2011
- Evidence of disrupting Wikipedia at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive38#Marcus R. Ross: Selected Bibliography,
...Hrafn's tendentious and disruptive edit warring...05:45, 17 January 2008
- Shouting at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive108#David Berlinski,
What are you shouting for?...19:11, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
WP:Complete bollocks!..."Turns out that you actually do know that..." John lilburne is misrepresenting me again....Hrafn...12:06, 5 February 2011
- Personal attack on another editor, Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive140#James O'Keefe,
Regurgitation of these tired, reality-divorced talking points amounts to no more than sticking your fingers in your ears and saying la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la...This is not even pretending you're "contributing to an encyclopedia"...Hrafn...02:56, 22 December 2011
- Commenting on the contributor, not the contribution, Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive108#David Berlinski,
Therefore the FACT is that you haven't got a leg to stand on. Hrafn...15:54, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
- Personal attack at Talk:John F. Ashton, "...sections out of chronological order -- it is [[WP:DE|disruptive]]...Hrafn...05:04, 14 May 2012 (UTC)".
- Diff showing that there is a well-known and long-standing problem.
Personal attacks or evidence of personal attacks on Unscintillating:
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/MHG Systems,
I find User:Hrafn's behaviour towards User:Unscintillating counterproductive (calling names and declaring the discussion "too long to read")...12:40, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
- Talk:John Hartnett (physicist), diff,
Unscintillating pig-headedly...Hrafn...08:28, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Accusations and uncivil behavior at Talk:John F. Ashton:
- ...'''BLATANTLY OBVIOUS''' that Ashton is a YEC, and [[WP:DE|disrupt]] the article...Hrafn...06:18, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- ...claim that we do not know that Ashton is a YEC is decidedly [[WP:POINT]]...Hrafn...09:59, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Diff:And here's a quote of where I MET THE FRACKING BURDEN! ...Hrafn...04:53, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- Talk:Mark Dalbey, diff,
Unscintillating (talk) 00:59, 21 May 2012 (UTC)This comment tells me nothing whatsoever of any validity about the facts, but everything about the character and general trustworthiness of its author. Relevant pages to describe your comment would appear to be WP:TE & WP:CB. I didn't have a high opinion of you previously, and rather thought that your nick was somewhat of an understatement. I now see that you are a perfect antonym of wikt:scintillating. Such extreme, blatant and fallacious WP:Synthesis of what the sources actually state would fail to 'scintillate' even the village idiot...Hrafn...12:27, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Move to strike
- To use the language of the courtroom (though cognizant that Wikipedia is not a court of law), the 'accused' moves that this purported 'evidence' be stricken, as being based repeatedly on (i) hearsay (what other users accuse me of having done), including one wild accusation from a long-banned sockpuppet (User:Goo2you), or (ii) quotation out of context -- including the egregious example where I am accused of "Commenting on the contributor, not the contribution" where the quotation conveniently omits my comments on the 'contribution' and only includes my "haven't got a leg to stand on" conclusion. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 11:33, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- Strike-through has been added to evidence not written by Hrafn. Unscintillating (talk) 23:35, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- But not of rampant quotation out of context. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 04:51, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- Strike-through has been added to evidence not written by Hrafn. Unscintillating (talk) 23:35, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Analysis
- User Hrafn's contributions show a pattern that he/she is either challenged by or chooses to bounds-test our civility policy and talk page guidelines. This is not a new problem.
- Hrafn's personal attacks on Talk:John F. Ashton cannot be dealt with on that page without drawing attention to the editor rather than the contributions. Therefore, I am effectively barred from further contributions on that page because Hrafn has accused me of disruption.
- Violations of the Arbcom ruling are listed as:
- Wikipedia editors are expected to behave reasonably and calmly in their interactions with other users, to keep their cool when editing, and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute.
- personal attacks,
- lack of respect for other editors,
- failure to work towards consensus,
- disrupting Wikipedia to make a point
- offensive language (including rude, offensive, derogatory, and insulting terms)
- gaming the system
Unscintillating (talk) 00:59, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Proposed resolution
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I propose that going forward, Hrafn is to be topic banned from any article for four months in which he/she engages in incivility; including not acting calmly, personal attacks, lack of respect for other editors, failure to work towards consensus, disrupting Wikipedia to make a point, offensive language, and gaming the system. This is to be interpreted strictly. Hrafn will comment on contributions, not contributors. Hrafn will not use the word "you" to refer to another editor. Hrafn will not make edits without edit comments. Unscintillating (talk) 00:59, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose: Hrafn has a real nasty bedside manner and often demonstrates WP:IDHT in content disputes. That said I would need to see evidence of sustained disruption (e.g. WP:EW) to support a topic ban. I recommend that you go to WQA for the next few incidents, and if there is still a problem WP:RFCU. – Lionel (talk) 04:31, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Discussion
- Comment This is a very poorly presented and ill thought out proposal, which was accompanied by canvassing.[81][82][83][84][85][86] No topic ban of this nature is likely to pass. The content seems to involve Young Earth Creationism. Apart from that, it appears this is a question of wikiquette, so shouldn't this have been reported at WP:WQA? Mathsci (talk) 01:22, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- As per the directions for filing a request here, "You must notify any user who is the subject of a discussion." Unscintillating (talk) 01:54, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- The users listed, e.g. John lilburne and Kenatipo, do not appear to be the subject of the discussion, i.e. Hrafn. Mathsci (talk) 02:19, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't know what more you want, they are all listed at the beginning of the post, they are all being quoted, and now they have all been notified as per the requirements of posting here. Unscintillating (talk) 03:02, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's impossible to determine whether these people are being quoted giving your presentation above, without any diffs. Even if it were the case, what you have done is nevertheless canvassing. But, leaving that aside, topic bans are always for a specific set of articles and their talk pages. What you seem to be suggesting is "civility probation". Mathsci (talk) 03:20, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- All quotes either have diffs or direct links to archives. Unscintillating (talk) 03:42, 21 May 2012 (UTC) Correction, I added a diff here. Unscintillating (talk) 03:56, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- From which set of articles and their talk pages are you proposing that Hrafn should be banned? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 04:06, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- That would be those going forward in which Hrafn either chooses to disregard or is unable to observe the civility policies and talk page guidelines as further defined in the recent ArbCom decision. The point is to put feedback in the system so that there is behavior change. This problem has been going on for at least four years with an apparently unending series of editors being the target of Hrafn's incivility. I don't see your point about "civility probation", because if the requirements of a topic ban are violated, admins respond with warnings or sanctions. Unscintillating (talk) 05:10, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry that is not a topic ban. It is your own version of "civility probation". Please try WP:WQA. Mathsci (talk) 05:18, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- As if this is my problem and not one shared by many editors over the last four years. Is that your only suggestion? Unscintillating (talk) 06:46, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hrafn is a perfectly good editor. He understands very well how to use secondary sources and how to deal with fringey, nonencyclopedic content. I could imagine that faced with a string of WP:IDHT responses (on articles presumably WP:CPUSH) his action might be one of frustration and fatigue; but that would be true of almost every regular editor who found themselves in the same circumstances. Mathsci (talk) 08:46, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- That is open to discussion. As I recall in the encounter I had with him over Berlinski he was taking polemical taunts as factual evidence, and WP:IDHT was, despite the protests, something that he'd engaged in for some two years. However, that is all in the past and hopefully things have changed. Although I haven't checked - Should I? John lilburne (talk) 12:10, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hrafn is a perfectly good editor. He understands very well how to use secondary sources and how to deal with fringey, nonencyclopedic content. I could imagine that faced with a string of WP:IDHT responses (on articles presumably WP:CPUSH) his action might be one of frustration and fatigue; but that would be true of almost every regular editor who found themselves in the same circumstances. Mathsci (talk) 08:46, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- As if this is my problem and not one shared by many editors over the last four years. Is that your only suggestion? Unscintillating (talk) 06:46, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry that is not a topic ban. It is your own version of "civility probation". Please try WP:WQA. Mathsci (talk) 05:18, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- That would be those going forward in which Hrafn either chooses to disregard or is unable to observe the civility policies and talk page guidelines as further defined in the recent ArbCom decision. The point is to put feedback in the system so that there is behavior change. This problem has been going on for at least four years with an apparently unending series of editors being the target of Hrafn's incivility. I don't see your point about "civility probation", because if the requirements of a topic ban are violated, admins respond with warnings or sanctions. Unscintillating (talk) 05:10, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- From which set of articles and their talk pages are you proposing that Hrafn should be banned? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 04:06, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- All quotes either have diffs or direct links to archives. Unscintillating (talk) 03:42, 21 May 2012 (UTC) Correction, I added a diff here. Unscintillating (talk) 03:56, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's impossible to determine whether these people are being quoted giving your presentation above, without any diffs. Even if it were the case, what you have done is nevertheless canvassing. But, leaving that aside, topic bans are always for a specific set of articles and their talk pages. What you seem to be suggesting is "civility probation". Mathsci (talk) 03:20, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't know what more you want, they are all listed at the beginning of the post, they are all being quoted, and now they have all been notified as per the requirements of posting here. Unscintillating (talk) 03:02, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- The users listed, e.g. John lilburne and Kenatipo, do not appear to be the subject of the discussion, i.e. Hrafn. Mathsci (talk) 02:19, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- As per the directions for filing a request here, "You must notify any user who is the subject of a discussion." Unscintillating (talk) 01:54, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- Comment Re: Hrafn. Some of us seem to cause him to lose his manners. However, if his advice is given careful consideration, his is invariably good counsel. I have wished for kinder treatment from him. But I have never regretted his being part of an article's development. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 02:03, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- Comment - User:Hrafn has been an excellent contributor to the John F. Ashton article and I feel as if the quotes taken from the Talk:John F. Ashton talk page are unrepresentative and inadvertently misleading. For example, the part where he mentions "met the FRACKING burden" was in direct response to the (undoubtedly unintentional) insinuation by fellow editor that Hrafn failed to substantiate his reasons / evidence for adding/restoring a claim to a biography of a living person. Perhaps his word choice is not the same as what I would have used but he was responding to the substance of another user's issue with him on a content dispute and I feel that banning from his editing of that article will have a serious and deleterious effect on the quality of the Ashton article, which is a very difficult area of research due to the general lack of availability of sources on this issue. I have not observed any sign that User:Hrafn has any problems that will impair the success of his contribution to this article and I urge you to please reconsider any topic ban that will prevent him from continuing his hard work volunteering here on John F. Ashton and other projects. DrPhen (talk) 02:37, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- Misguided proposal Hrafn is one of a small number of editors who defend the encyclopedia against WP:UNDUE nonsense being added to promote WP:FRINGE views, and I have admired Hrafn's editing for a couple of years. Occasionally somewhat strong comments are made, but I do not recall seeing anything inappropriate from Hrafn. Johnuniq (talk) 03:48, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- Comment My one encounter with Hrafn was in the Berlinsky discussion on the BLPN. I don't recall him being unduly rude, offensive, derogatory, or insulting (at least nothing that one couldn't simply ignore as bluster). What I did find is that in his efforts to keep nonsense out, he along with others were quite prepared to add, keep, and defend nonsense of their own. But that was well over a year ago and he doesn't seem to be any worse than most in that respect. John lilburne (talk) 07:01, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
editor blocked as sock |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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- Support appropriate topic ban for Hrafn. This editor seems to be unable to follow WP:CIVIL, and is continuously abusive. This edit is just one example. -- 202.124.74.76 (talk) 11:44, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- Comment From what I have seen of Hrafn's edits, they should be allowed to continue unfettered. I do not see unwillingness or inability to suffer fools gladly as any great crime against civility. I do see it as consistent with the character of an exopedian defending articles from undue influences and outright nonsensical content. I have not seen it rise to abusive levels, either out in the wild or in the examples given here in this discussion. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 14:57, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support a GIANT TROUT for not only filing this, but filing it using such quasi-legal formatting. Please don't waste the community's time like this (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:09, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- I assume everyone noted that this is an Oppose to the proposal (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 17:29, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose a topic ban for Hrafn. Drmies (talk) 15:50, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
IPs tagged as (suspected) sockpuppets
There are hundreds (thousands?) of IP addresses tagged as sockpuppets, suspected sockpuppets, or sockmasters. However, according to the policy Wikipedia:Sock puppetry (and specifically the linked Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SPI/Administrators instructions#Blocking and tagging, registerd accounts should be tagged, but IP addresses shouldn't be tagged.
This is done for a number of reason, including the protection of privacy and the fact that an IP which has been tagged as a sockpuppet may now be used by someone completely unrelated to the problem.
Therefor, I propose to remove all sock and suspected sock tags from IP addresses; in the case were different registered accounts are tagged as socks of an IP address, to tag one of the registered accounts as the master instead; and to nominate for speedy deletion all categories which become empty due to the removal of said tags.
This is a rather drastic action which may raise some eyebrows if started without prior discussion, so please raise all objections and discuss any improvements. Fram (talk) 07:53, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- There's nothing wrong with tagging IP talk pages, which is what the Blocking and tagging instructions used to say before someone changed it. Doc talk 08:00, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Tagging IPs is actually rather important to tracking IP-hopping block evaders (who tend to operate from a limited range of addresses), and blanket removal of these tags would be really unhelpful for admins and editors who are trying to stop active block evaders. Instead of doing so, I'd suggest removing all the tags which are more than (say) six months old, or whatever the Checkuser criterion for the IP being "stale" is if it's a shorter duration. Nick-D (talk) 08:04, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- For prolific ones, it's necessary to listify if we're going to remove the tags. e.g. Nangaparbat has been inactive for a year but came back again after that. Most of the people who've been tackling NP are currently inactive, so this will prevent any action. Same with Dewan357, if just a couple of editors aren't around and the IPs used list isn't available, then preventing further disruption is almost impossible. —SpacemanSpiff 08:08, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- When was that changed? I have to agree with Doc through Spiff when they say that Fram's proposal would substantially hamper SPIs. Nyttend (talk) 11:34, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Not disagreeing Nyttend, just saying that if this proposal is accepted, then we need an alternative to manage the resulting troubles.—SpacemanSpiff 12:45, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agree with Doc & Nyttend - I've tagged IPs recently with 'suspected' and a CU has been unable to confirm due to not enough edits. Should the editor of an IP change from Mr X to Mrs Y, then we can remove the tag at that point - but I've oly seen it happen once in my 6+ years here. GiantSnowman 11:41, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Here was the change. It didn't seem to cause much of stir at the time, but I don't understand why IP talk pages shouldn't be tagged if need be. Doc talk 11:42, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- What is the point of connecting User talk:58.69.10.203 with Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of 112.205.231.17? They have made one common edit, i.e. the second making a vandal edit, and the first making a (valid) correction in it 7 hours later, which makes it rather dubious that these are actual socks of each other. Fram (talk) 12:11, 22 May 2012 (UTC
- Tagging errors, or overzealous tagging, by individual editors shouldn't necessarily mean that the entire concept of tagging an IP should be abandoned (and I have informed DeltaQuad of this thread, naturally). I have always agreed that IP's pages don't need to be tagged, and haven't tagged any since I learned what the policy said at one time; but tagging their talk pages is far less of a concern, as I see it. Doc talk 12:24, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- The individual instance doesn't really interest me, it's just an example, the fact is that while GiantSnwoman may have seen only one problematic instance in 6 years, it isn't hard to find a lot more in the actual existing categories. Fram (talk) 12:31, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Tagging errors, or overzealous tagging, by individual editors shouldn't necessarily mean that the entire concept of tagging an IP should be abandoned (and I have informed DeltaQuad of this thread, naturally). I have always agreed that IP's pages don't need to be tagged, and haven't tagged any since I learned what the policy said at one time; but tagging their talk pages is far less of a concern, as I see it. Doc talk 12:24, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I did make that internal edit to SPI documentation. It was just what the clerks actively did at the time, which I also personally agree with. I'll make more comment below. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 13:15, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- What is the point of connecting User talk:58.69.10.203 with Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of 112.205.231.17? They have made one common edit, i.e. the second making a vandal edit, and the first making a (valid) correction in it 7 hours later, which makes it rather dubious that these are actual socks of each other. Fram (talk) 12:11, 22 May 2012 (UTC
- There is no way to tell whether User:202.56.7.138 is still in any way connected to User:119.30.39.37 and/or User:Azpayel (who hasn't edited in three years anyway). Never mind that the only IP address in Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of 203.202.70.202 is User:203.202.70.202 itself. The talk page indicates that probably User:203.171.92.36 was intended, who made one edit in 2006. User talk:195.195.190.4, a school IP, is linked to Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Abdi342, who made three edits in 2008. The point of this sock tag and this category at this point in time is? Fram (talk) 11:59, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Here was the change. It didn't seem to cause much of stir at the time, but I don't understand why IP talk pages shouldn't be tagged if need be. Doc talk 11:42, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- When was that changed? I have to agree with Doc through Spiff when they say that Fram's proposal would substantially hamper SPIs. Nyttend (talk) 11:34, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- For prolific ones, it's necessary to listify if we're going to remove the tags. e.g. Nangaparbat has been inactive for a year but came back again after that. Most of the people who've been tackling NP are currently inactive, so this will prevent any action. Same with Dewan357, if just a couple of editors aren't around and the IPs used list isn't available, then preventing further disruption is almost impossible. —SpacemanSpiff 08:08, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Aren't the IP's normally included in the archives of the SPI anyway? E.g. for User:Dewan357, you can find a (partial) list of his IP socks through Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dewan357/Archive, which seems to contain more (and other) IP addresses than Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Dewan357 does. The ranges are the important aspect here, not the actual addresses, as far as I can see. Fram (talk) 12:11, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Should my initial proposal be restricted to "after 6 months or older" and/or "only for small-scale sockfarms, i.e. 2 or 3 adresses at most"? Fram (talk) 11:59, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Even with that change, I would oppose. Not seeing any real benefit from it. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 12:34, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Privacy? Plus, just imagine that you start editing (as an IP), and you turn out to be already tagged as a "suspected sockpuppet". Not really the welcoming atmosphere we try to create for new editors. The actual benefit of such IP sock cats is (certainly after a few months or a year) largely negligible, except perhaps for a few persistent IP-hopping socks to establish ranges and so on. But we shouldn't have many (now) useless and potentially harmful cats for the sake of a few useful ones. Fram (talk) 12:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- You're going to have to clarify. I don't see how this is a privacy issue at all. As to "welcoming," it's not welcoming for a person to get rolled into a dynamic IP that has vandalism notices or is blocked, either. Most IPs who've run into this aren't upset when they get an explanation. I don't this as compelling either. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 22:24, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Privacy? Plus, just imagine that you start editing (as an IP), and you turn out to be already tagged as a "suspected sockpuppet". Not really the welcoming atmosphere we try to create for new editors. The actual benefit of such IP sock cats is (certainly after a few months or a year) largely negligible, except perhaps for a few persistent IP-hopping socks to establish ranges and so on. But we shouldn't have many (now) useless and potentially harmful cats for the sake of a few useful ones. Fram (talk) 12:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Editor's should not be tagged except as a result of an SPI per good faith. Nobody Ent 12:35, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- In really, ridiculously obvious WP:DUCK cases, there needs to be no SPI before they are tagged. In fact, SPI would come to a complete standstill if they did. Doc talk 12:42, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- But take Nangparbat, since someone mentioned him. While I've been watching he's edited from four dozen BT IP addresses. The only information to note is that his ISP is BT - his IP address changes every 48 hours. What on earth is the point of tagging all the IPs - by now the first one probably belongs to Mavis Minnow, who just wants to make a few edits to pages on slugs, and discovers she's being accused as a sock of Nangparbat. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:18, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Accusing? --Dirk Beetstra T C 13:27, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Anyways, would it be possible to have sockpuppet tags on IP user(talk)pages to have an expiry date? That would quickly empty the categories and then empty sock-categories could be deleted and/or would not need creation. --Dirk Beetstra T C 13:32, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- So, for IP pages, have a bot change {{sock}} (should be used on named accounts only) to {{ipsock}} (should be used on IP accounts only) (and vice versa) - and have for {{ipsock}} have an expiry date set (1 month or 6 months, or possibly custom, whatever we agree on). After expiry the tag changes appearance, is not categorised anymore, and the page can be blanked (alike Wikipedia:Old IP talk pages). Empty categories can be deleted then (if they were created). --Dirk Beetstra T C 13:47, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- If feasible, such a solution is fine by me as well of course. Fram (talk) 13:52, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Isn't something like this programmed into {{prod}} (though that is substituted - but if it works there, it should be easy with parameters to the template as well). --Dirk Beetstra T C 13:56, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- If feasible, such a solution is fine by me as well of course. Fram (talk) 13:52, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose - Doesn't help anything, creates a lot of unnecessary work. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 16:50, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- To that I agree, Burpelson AFB - but people are saying here that invalid tags (and their resultant categories) are unnecessarily accusing and should be removed. Who needs a problem if you have a solution? --Dirk Beetstra T C 16:59, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
When tagging IPs as socks, a couple things need to be considered:
- How static is the IP?
- Privacy concerns: Is the blocked user clearly evading block from said IP?
As far as #1 is concerned, obviously if an IP is static enough and is known to have been used long enough by a blocked user, then by all means tag it. For dynamic IPs, it depends. I have seen users tag groups of IPs that form an entire IP range. I would personally prefer to find the range and then tag the user page of that IP range itself, but the other way is also fine, if it's useful. There are cases in which people evade block by using any means, meaning that IPs will be all over the place; in that case, it may not be useful to tag such IPs.
For #2, a user who openly edits or evades block through IPs are not afforded the same privacy expectations as those users who, for instance, accidentally edit while logged out. To elaborate, that user takes responsibility for whatever happens if he/she intentionally chooses to use an IP to evade a block, scrutiny, etc. Moreover, while CheckUsers do not publicly make connections between registered accounts and IPs via technical evidence, that does not stop anyone from making that connection publicly with behavioral evidence and editing patterns. --MuZemike 21:24, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- One point that appears to have been missed in the discussion is that the main benefit of tagging the IP is to be able to see the past contributions to compare with. For many of our prolific sockmasters, CU data is stale, so almost everything is based on behavioral evidence. Removing the IPsock tag is fine if there's another trail maintained to review contribution history for every sock farm. —SpacemanSpiff 01:37, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- In a way regarding point 1 of MuZemike, tagging very volatile IPs - at least a good handful of them (which may happen before one realises that the editor has the access to many IPs) does show that the sockmaster is all around the place. To go with SpacemanSpiff, maybe then a 'for the record' SPI should be created, linking all (or at least the ones detected) a user has used, after which the tagging from the individual IP pages can be blanked. --Dirk Beetstra T C 03:52, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have to agree with Dirk and MuZemike that "for-the-record" SPIs are better than tagging each individual one. In some cases though, where a prolific sock such as Nangparbat, that is not a good idea because he can regenerate a new IP in less than 24 hours. So if it's got enough contributions that would be a good behavoiral comparison, then i'd consider filing an SPI, or if it's not dynamic, maybe tagging it, but I rarely tag IPs usually as the block log speaks for itself enough with the SPI. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 13:15, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- @DeltaQuad - I meant to use the 'for the record' SPI's for the obvious WP:DUCK cases which normally do not go through SPI/CU. Most sock-farms have an SPI, but for some an SPI is not filed, just the obvious socks are tagged (and blocked). I would suggest that for those, instead of continuing tagging, a 'for the record' SPI is created later tying the master to the socks, and then most (if not all) of the tags on the actual socks can be blanked. --Dirk Beetstra T C 13:21, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Block review requested for Historiographer
Historiographer (talk · contribs)
WP:ANI#Personal attack by User: Historiographer
The user has been blocked after a complaint at ANI, I ask for clarification regarding consideration of the phrase "Please, Don't mind too." which has not been referred to by the original complainant or the blocking admin. It appears to have been overlooked, despite it's significance, which changes entirely what appeared as a npa into very wise advice. Penyulap ☏ 16:21, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Whatever it is you're doing, you're not helping the user; posting unblock-requests on someone else's talkpage knowing full well they will be declined isn't good. Historiographer now has two declined unblock-request on his page, neither of which were even made by him/her. I suggest someone remove these so it won't give the wrong impression when giving just a quick glance. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 17:34, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- It looks to me like someone with limited English skills (thought their English is far better than my Korean or Japanese) attempting to show empathy, by recounting some unfair postings that the individual has learned to ignore, and is giving similar advice. If I'm reading correctly, the proper response isn't a block, but some wikilove.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 17:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I highly agree, has the blocking admin been contacted? Ryan Vesey Review me! 17:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- There's a lot more to this than one comment - heck, just look at his remarks after being mentioned on ANI. Too bad at English to contribute to discussion imo, so even if block removed he should only be doing edits that don't require discussion (whatever they may be). Egg Centric 17:51, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- (ec)Actually, the block is for more than just some NPA-slip; this user has a history of edit-warring, attacks and other stuff. So it's not like it's made to look; there's more. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 17:52, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- The last edit war block was over a year ago. Ryan Vesey Review me! 17:54, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- hm. I didn't know you had the right to edit-war once a year. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 18:20, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- The point is that it is not relevant to the current case, which appears to not be a case at all and just a mistake on the blocking admin's part. SilverserenC 18:26, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I was going to make the same point, but Silver Seren beat me to it. Ryan Vesey Review me! 18:27, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- No, it is not a mistake. Why is this split across the two noticeboards? I commented on the thread at WP:ANI. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:30, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't know why it's split between two discussions, you might want to merge them. However, i've read your statement over there and I very much disagree with you. This block is significantly out of proportion. The next logical step, if a block was warranted, would be to go to 1 week, after the last block a year ago of 72 hours. But a block is not warranted here, a warning is. SilverserenC 18:39, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think this is split across two notice boards because a request for a block is viewed as an incident requiring quick action, and belonging on the incident page, while a review of a block is less urgent and belongs on the AN page. That said, the page instruction leave a lot to be desired. I've figured out what goes where mostly by osmosis.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 19:01, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't know why it's split between two discussions, you might want to merge them. However, i've read your statement over there and I very much disagree with you. This block is significantly out of proportion. The next logical step, if a block was warranted, would be to go to 1 week, after the last block a year ago of 72 hours. But a block is not warranted here, a warning is. SilverserenC 18:39, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- No, it is not a mistake. Why is this split across the two noticeboards? I commented on the thread at WP:ANI. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:30, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- hm. I didn't know you had the right to edit-war once a year. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 18:20, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- The last edit war block was over a year ago. Ryan Vesey Review me! 17:54, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Moving my earlier response here from WP:ANI:
- @Penyulap: I am at a loss to understand why you would think the "Please, Don't mind too" part of Historiographer's edit [89] is relevant to the block reasons. That bit is of course harmless. What's not harmless is the fact that he was calling Japanese users Jjokbaries (a racist slur) and was describing them wholesale as disruptive social misfits who enjoyed damaging Wikipedia articles. If that was not the expression of a deeply entrenched battleground attitude, I don't know what is. Moreover, the block was also based on a review of his previous pattern of contributions (although these are mostly some months back; he's been inactive of late except for today's talk page post). Historiographer obviously knows too little English to interact with other editors in a meaningful, constructive way when dealing with complex POV disputes, and that means that his editing has been mostly restricted to blanket reverts of other users accompanied with edit summaries in broken, almost incomprehensible English. Such behaviour, even if done in good faith, is disruptive especially when it happens in a highly charged, contentious topic area such as this. WP:COMPETENCE is required.
- This is not to say that other users in the field may not also be deserving of similar blocks, or even more so. Historiographer's outburst against Japanese editors who "feels ecstasy when they bothering Koreans", while unacceptable in the way he expressed it, may partly be a sign of an understandable frustration, because, frankly, we have had a couple of Japanese users in the past to whom this description more or less applied. I don't know how many of them are currently on the loose. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:00, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
And more responses to the comments above:
- @SPhilbrick and others: I also cannot follow you at all in describing this posting as "attempting to show empathy, by recounting some unfair postings that the individual has learned to ignore, and is giving similar advice". I'll give you my own translation of the original post into proper English, staying as close as possible to what Historiographer apparently meant to say:
- Japanese users such as Kusunose, who restrict themselves to Korea-related articles, have always been annoying like this. I used to confront these troublesome jjokbaris [i.e. Japanese bastards] just like you are doing now. However, there is no definite solution to this problem, because anti-Korean Japanese users are otaku [i.e. obsessed] hikikomori [i.e. loners] and get their greatest joy out of annoying Koreans. Please ignore them. Truth will prevail on Wikipedia regardless of Japanese lies.
- There is no reasonable way of reading this posting according to which Historiographer isn't:
- calling Japanese editors "bastards/scum" ("jjokbari") – this is not within the scope of what he "used to do" but "is no longer doing"; he is clearly saying now that these people actually are scum;
- describing Japanese editors as socially impaired (roughly: "obsessed basement-dwelling nerds");
- attributing to Japanese editors a fundamental desire to harm Wikipedia;
- describing the disputes between Korean and Japanese editors as a matter of "truth" versus "lies" ("hoaxes");
- reenforcing the other editor's (a newbie's) description of Japanese editors as "vandals" (rather than trying to dissuade him of that mistake, as any reasonable experienced editor should).
- @Silverseren: I don't take kindly to baseless insinuations of "involved" admin misuse; please retract that because I regard it as an insult. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:29, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I read it differently.
- I read it, using a very generous translation, as saying" "I can sympathize with your feelings. There are some (not all) editors who have been very annoying. So annoying I viewed them as bastards, but I now realize they are simply obsessed, and are just acting like trolls to annoy you. Don't fall for it; ignore them, and you will be better off."
- Good advice, if accompanied by stronger language than necessary. Worth a trip to WQA? Probably. Worth a three month block? Not IMO.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 19:36, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, but you are misreading it. This is definitely not what he was saying. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:45, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that the block was much stronger than necessary. There were some racist personal attacks there, but I think anything more than a week is completely unreasonable and I'm not entirely sure a block was absolutely necessary prior to a full ANI discussion. Ryan Vesey Review me! 19:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- After seeing this edit I am fully supportive of the block. I still think 3 months becomes punitive rather than preventative. Ryan Vesey Review me! 19:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, but you were the one who blocked him twice before. Don't you think that makes you biased in terms of this user, especially when others are pointing out that it seems too much? SilverserenC 19:39, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Not too involved, 3rr blocks are fairly cut and dry and don't generally equate to "involvement" Ryan Vesey Review me! 19:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- (ec) No, it doesn't. Since when does being acquainted with a user's disruptive pattern from an administrator's perspective make an administrator automatically biased? Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:45, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- When a future block of the user seems overdone. A week would have been defensible, not three months. SilverserenC 19:58, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- My only possibly bias in this area is that I am of the opinion we should treat all disruptive editors in the Korea-Japan hotspot areas, on both sides, with extra harshness. Having followed disputes in this domain from a distance for several years, I have come to the opinion that the whole field is so overrun with hopelessly unproductive editors that in order to restore sanity we would have to kick out about 80% of them. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:09, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- When a future block of the user seems overdone. A week would have been defensible, not three months. SilverserenC 19:58, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Good advice, if accompanied by stronger language than necessary. Worth a trip to WQA? Probably. Worth a three month block? Not IMO.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 19:36, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I thoroughly agree with Future Perfect at Sunrise's interpretation of the above screed, and my only complaint is that this block isn't indef. But I suppose this is a good compromise; if you really, seriously cannot see the problem with referring to Japanese people as jjokbaris (which is sort of like calling them Japs or slant-eyes in English), I can't help you (despite my signature, I can assure you that I'm white and don't have any personal reason to be offended). I don't think we'd tolerate an American editor complaining about wetbacks or a Polish editor complaining about krauts, so I don't see why we should do anything different here. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:06, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Future Perfect at Sunrise, it is policy itself that the English server is shared amongst all editors with different variants of English. They do not ask any special treatment that you take sufficient care to understand their variant of the english language, it is policy that you must. You describe the editors summaries as "broken, almost incomprehensible English." they may be so to you, however, do you not see that there are people who do have a clear understanding of the editors remarks ? How does this fit in with your mention of WP:COMPETENCE in your ability to cope with judging the editors remarks ? Penyulap ☏ 20:24, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Broken English is not a "variant" of English. It's just broken. Yes, one can generally figure out what he means, with some effort. That doesn't change the fact that the presence of English at this poor level is disruptive to the smooth working of the project. As, incidentally, can be seen from the fact that in this particular instance some observers here obviously could not figure out what he was saying, even when they tried. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:30, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- The Blade of the Northern Lights, I do agree with you about the harshness required for dealing with racial trolling, however there are two separate issues here and as best I can see Future Perfect at Sunrise is unaware of the clear interpretation of the phrase "Please, Don't mind too." which was overlooked and left out of the original complaint. It reverses the statement. It is significant.
- Once that mistake is recognised and dealt with, yes of course you deal with the secondary issue of mentioning such things in conversation masked as good advice as inflammatory in itself, and determine if that was the intention. Overt attack is the reasoning behind the block, and an overt attack it is not. Penyulap ☏ 20:41, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- What on earth are you talking about? How does "Please, Don't mind too" "reverse the statement"? It does not. The phrase meant "please ignore what those Japanese editors are doing". What on earth did you think it meant? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:50, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I feel I understood it, and that was that. It was wise advice from one editor to another, it DID NOT name any other editor, was sympathetic and intended to ease tensions rather than inflame them. If we are going to sit and search for a fault with any editor there are more likely candidates than this one. The finer interpretation of hidden dynamics, I feel should not be handled by an admin who describes that editors variant as incomprehensible.
- SPhilbrick seems to have translated into a more familiar to you ? variant. So if you want to know what "reverse the statement" means, leave the italicised words out of his translation. "I can sympathize with your feelings. There are some (not all) editors who have been very annoying. So annoying I viewed them as bastards, but I now realize they are simply obsessed, and are just acting like trolls to annoy you. Don't fall for it; ignore them, and you will be better off." although, I think the original editor said it better himself in his own language. "Please, Don't mind too." is not open to ambiguity. Penyulap ☏ 21:05, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- You are misreading this in such an absurd fashion I really have nothing more to say. Except for this: if this guy's English is so poor that he could be misunderstood by a competent speaker of English, like you, in such an utterly absurd way, that's all the more grounds for keeping him blocked. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:11, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- SPhilbrick seems to have translated into a more familiar to you ? variant. So if you want to know what "reverse the statement" means, leave the italicised words out of his translation. "I can sympathize with your feelings. There are some (not all) editors who have been very annoying. So annoying I viewed them as bastards, but I now realize they are simply obsessed, and are just acting like trolls to annoy you. Don't fall for it; ignore them, and you will be better off." although, I think the original editor said it better himself in his own language. "Please, Don't mind too." is not open to ambiguity. Penyulap ☏ 21:05, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Righteous block Nobody Ent 21:27, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Certainly if I were the only person who 'misunderstood' the editors comments I may doubt myself and review several times more until I could see my misinterpretation, however I see that I am not alone. I find that I am endlessly quoting and linking to this policy page in articles, and once before at ANI I posted up the image I will repost here. Whilst I can understand that you find other variants of English disruptive in themselves, I don't think it proper to interpret policy in a way that places your own sub-demographic above all others.
- If language is a reason to block, we need to update policy to decide which variant to use. Penyulap ☏ 21:41, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Does that mean we can block all the British editors? Because British English is confusing, imo. SilverserenC 21:59, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Eenie, meenie, minee, MO! which way shall we GO ? I'm sure you know there are like 250 million people in America, but did you know there are 80 million Nigerians who speak English ? Maybe they can run scams on the 125,000,000 people in India who can speak English, you know using the call centres, and there are 90 million English speakers in the phillipines, sweet, so, who do we ban pre-emptively first ? Personally I think it should be the whistleblower, that would be me, I'll return as a sock and help you ban all these variant speakers shall I? Yep, I'm losing it, time for me to get something to eat I guess, or play a computergame. Penyulap ☏ 22:04, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Clearly, the easiest method is to ban everyone who isn't American. SilverserenC 22:19, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Eenie, meenie, minee, MO! which way shall we GO ? I'm sure you know there are like 250 million people in America, but did you know there are 80 million Nigerians who speak English ? Maybe they can run scams on the 125,000,000 people in India who can speak English, you know using the call centres, and there are 90 million English speakers in the phillipines, sweet, so, who do we ban pre-emptively first ? Personally I think it should be the whistleblower, that would be me, I'll return as a sock and help you ban all these variant speakers shall I? Yep, I'm losing it, time for me to get something to eat I guess, or play a computergame. Penyulap ☏ 22:04, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Does that mean we can block all the British editors? Because British English is confusing, imo. SilverserenC 21:59, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm going with Blade on this one: resorting to racist slurs should result in an indef. Full stop, no exceptions. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 22:33, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- What about Blades similar use of slurs, he said "I don't think we'd tolerate an American editor complaining about wetbacks or a Polish editor complaining about krauts, so I don't see why we should do anything different here." I count two slurs right there, we should indef him, and omg I just repeated them, so indef me as well. And the Americans, Canadians, omg lets go SOPA for a day and block everyone to teach them all a lesson.
- But seriously, which interpretation are you going on HandThatFeeds ? the overt one, the covert one, or are you aware there is a difference ? Penyulap ☏ 22:51, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, quit being so melodramatic. You know damn well what I'm talking about. Your hyperbole and incessant need to go over-the-top is not helping these discussions. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 11:35, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Template use prohibition
Seems like other than the blocked editor posting the unblock template is confusing and disruptive... does this happen frequently enough to make discussion of a formal prohibition worthwhile? Nobody Ent 21:27, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- certainly it is, looking over the unblock pages and guides it says nothing whatsoever about third parties, I would gladly help with some feedback :) Penyulap ☏ 21:41, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- The documentation for the template says "The following should be placed on your talk page:"Nobody Ent 21:47, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, I didn't think of just how funny it would have been if I did it that way, rats! Penyulap ☏ 22:04, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hmm, well I placed it on my userpage, I have no idea how it looks there, if it is humorous or not, see for yourself now would someone please move this little section or start a suggestion somewhere that the docs for the template are inadequate or something ? way I see it at the moment, if you want to unblock someone, use an unblock template, if there is some other way to do it, lets not keep it a secret any longer, as for me, I'll go on using the template as is, it's good enough for me. Whatever happens, it's not relevant to this discussion, imho, sorry Nobody Ent. Penyulap ☏ 22:26, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Uh, Penyulap, it's phrased that way because the template is only supposed to be used by the blocked party. Therefore, it is posted on their talkpage. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 22:38, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- That's where I put it. on their talkpage, but it goes on my talkpage doesn't it? Penyulap ☏ 22:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- No, you don't use it at all. The blocked editor may use it if they want to be unblocked. It is not appropriate for another user to request unblocking through those templates. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 11:40, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- That's where I put it. on their talkpage, but it goes on my talkpage doesn't it? Penyulap ☏ 22:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Uh, Penyulap, it's phrased that way because the template is only supposed to be used by the blocked party. Therefore, it is posted on their talkpage. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 22:38, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hmm, well I placed it on my userpage, I have no idea how it looks there, if it is humorous or not, see for yourself now would someone please move this little section or start a suggestion somewhere that the docs for the template are inadequate or something ? way I see it at the moment, if you want to unblock someone, use an unblock template, if there is some other way to do it, lets not keep it a secret any longer, as for me, I'll go on using the template as is, it's good enough for me. Whatever happens, it's not relevant to this discussion, imho, sorry Nobody Ent. Penyulap ☏ 22:26, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, I didn't think of just how funny it would have been if I did it that way, rats! Penyulap ☏ 22:04, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- The documentation for the template says "The following should be placed on your talk page:"Nobody Ent 21:47, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Of note, this is his response: "Ha Ha Ha, don't be such an ass! Whatever you are saying, I'm not interested"[90]
- Obviously not interested in help, and does not care about the block. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 22:37, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Glad you can join us halfway through, were now going in the same direction, it's just that little bit faster now. Penyulap ☏ 22:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think we're going in the same direction at all. The user was offensive and does not care that he was blocked. There's nothing further to do here. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 11:40, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Glad you can join us halfway through, were now going in the same direction, it's just that little bit faster now. Penyulap ☏ 22:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
"Ha Ha Ha, don't be such an ass! Whatever you are saying, I'm not interested" actually means "I deeply care about my being blocked and promise I will never engage in such behavior again. Please unblock me." Remember, the user has limited knowledge of the English language. WP:AGF. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 22:49, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- (illistration using some sarcasm, basically asking what do you expect?)Hmm I think they should be more like "Omg I am so sorry that I am upset that you have incorrectly blocked me in a biased manner, I so sorry, I not speak enwish, you aways right because wikipwedia is american, please block me some more because I not happy with your mistake" anything less should go indef. Penyulap ☏ 22:55, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- On a serious note, this has NOTHING whatsoever to do with AGF which is not policy, this has to do with an admin with by his own admission little or no understanding of the editors variant blocking that editor based on his interpretation of that editors English. That IS against policy. (is there a policy along the lines of don't close your eyes and fire a gun randomly?) Penyulap ☏ 22:58, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Am I alone in thinking that Penyulap is now simply trolling? This is just getting too bizarre. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:02, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
I wonder if Penyulap realizes that the user called him an ass.In light of the rest of the information that came about here, I wouldn't be opposed to indef block, no talk page access, rather than the 3 month block in existence now (Contrary to my earlier comments). Ryan Vesey Review me! 23:10, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Am I alone in thinking that Penyulap is now simply trolling? This is just getting too bizarre. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:02, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- On a serious note, this has NOTHING whatsoever to do with AGF which is not policy, this has to do with an admin with by his own admission little or no understanding of the editors variant blocking that editor based on his interpretation of that editors English. That IS against policy. (is there a policy along the lines of don't close your eyes and fire a gun randomly?) Penyulap ☏ 22:58, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- (illistration using some sarcasm, basically asking what do you expect?)Hmm I think they should be more like "Omg I am so sorry that I am upset that you have incorrectly blocked me in a biased manner, I so sorry, I not speak enwish, you aways right because wikipwedia is american, please block me some more because I not happy with your mistake" anything less should go indef. Penyulap ☏ 22:55, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
You may call me a troll, you may call me an ass, or you may indeed call me a troll's ass for good measure, I do not mind, I prefer the third. I see the same systemic problem that I saw with AndytheGrump recently, where the accused does his best to undermine wikipedia by refocusing the discussion upon his accuser.
I would suggest that, (using your own language and phrasing so you can understand with ease)
- You "obviously know too little English" to place blocks upon other editors in a meaningful, constructive way when dealing with complex language issues. You found an editor upon whom you placed a block as having "broken, almost incomprehensible English." and yet still resisted any advice on the matter from many other editors and admins.
- You've said "I am at a loss to understand why you would think the Please, Don't mind too part of Historiographer's edit is relevant to the block reasons." and resist any attempt by many people to help you understand why it IS relevant.
- You've said "some observers here obviously could not figure out what he was saying, even when they tried." and don't want to take advice from the people who can understand with some ease.
- You've said "Having followed disputes in this domain from a distance for several years, I have come to the opinion that the whole field is so overrun with hopelessly unproductive editors that in order to restore sanity we would have to kick out about 80% of them."
- You suggest that if an editor is capable of being misunderstood by someone else, they should be blocked
I'm fast coming to the conclusion that it is not the block which requires review, but your adminship that requires review. Penyulap ☏ 00:44, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Drop the stick, please. I'm no particular friend of FPaS, but you're way off base here, and doing yourself harm by continuing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:41, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, this has become a complete WP:BOOMERANG. Pen, you've made it clear you like to engage in some devil's advocacy and humor, but you never seem to know when to quit. You're really pushing people's patience with this act. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 11:40, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- This seems to be a current issue with Penyulap - inserting themself into situations where they are 100% policy unaware, and thus inflame the situation - often by encouraging the other editor to speak out more loudly and improperly. A couple of months ago we had another editor who got their wrist slapped for posted unblocks "on behalf of" editors - I'm going to have to go back and find out who it was (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:48, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Bwilkins, please be kind enough to keep your personal attack 100 % to yourself. Penyulap ☏ 14:05, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- What personal attack? Where? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 14:21, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Glad to see I'm not the only person who finds Penyulap's behaviour peculiar. Somehow the quality of the trolling reminds me of Archtransit (talk · contribs) and socks. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:45, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- At first it seemed like someone who just won't quit to me, but some statements are so unreasonable that I think trolling could be a fair diagnosis. Egg Centric 15:21, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- Glad to see I'm not the only person who finds Penyulap's behaviour peculiar. Somehow the quality of the trolling reminds me of Archtransit (talk · contribs) and socks. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:45, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- What personal attack? Where? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 14:21, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Bwilkins, please be kind enough to keep your personal attack 100 % to yourself. Penyulap ☏ 14:05, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- This seems to be a current issue with Penyulap - inserting themself into situations where they are 100% policy unaware, and thus inflame the situation - often by encouraging the other editor to speak out more loudly and improperly. A couple of months ago we had another editor who got their wrist slapped for posted unblocks "on behalf of" editors - I'm going to have to go back and find out who it was (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:48, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, this has become a complete WP:BOOMERANG. Pen, you've made it clear you like to engage in some devil's advocacy and humor, but you never seem to know when to quit. You're really pushing people's patience with this act. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 11:40, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
It’s a shame I caught this thread so late, as I think I could have prevented some of the fallout if I had seen it earlier. As an ESL teacher I deal with these kind of language issues every day, although admittedly with Japanese speakers and not Korean speakers. It would be easier for me to interpret the comment by Historiographer that started all of this if I spoke Korean in addition to speaking Japanese; however, the two languages still share many features, such as the lack of plurals and the way they use suffixes (particles) to modify words, so I can make a reasonable guess as to what's going on.
I would be grateful if a Korean speaker could check over this, but I think the true meaning of the comment by Historiographer that started this business is somewhere between Fut. Perf.’s strict interpretation and SPhilbrick’s lenient one. Here is what I think was intended:
- Japanese users like Kusunose, who diminish the quality of Korea-related articles, always keep doing annoying things like that. In earlier times I also used to do the things you have done (here referring to the actions of 222.101.9.93 (talk)) against these troublesome Jjokbaries. However, there are no definitive answers to this problem due to the fact that (some) Anti-Korean Japanese users, who some people think are otaku (obsessive nerds, probably of the computer variety) with hikikomori (loner) tendencies, feel ecstasy when they bother Koreans. Please, pay no attention to them. The contents of Wikipedia are no longer the absolute truth, regardless of what Japanese hoaxes may be perpetrated on the site. See this link. (The link appears to be a site discussing Japanese people with a decidedly anti-Japanese point of view, but the Google translation isn’t too clear.) Nowadays, I just stop responding to the Japanese otaku when I see them. (The Korean bracketed text is an idiom which I can’t translate. The direct translation is something like “don’t throw any lead” – ‘lead’ as in the metal – whatever that means.) If you do this too, it will be a great help to you. Thanks for your passion in editing those articles.
This is subjective of course, so please take my interpretation with a pinch of salt. However, if I am right, then Historiographer looks less like a holy warrior who is out to insert The Truth into Wikipedia at all costs, and more like a user tired of edit wars who is giving out good advice to fellow Koreans. However, this does not excuse the racial slur “jjokbari”, and this user obviously has an anti-Japanese point of view that will prevent them from editing neutrally on Japanese topics. Claims of a battleground mentality are fair enough, as Historiographer is plainly seeing the topic area as one of “us versus them”.
In light of this interpretation, I don’t think Penyulap was off base with this AN thread, and I wouldn’t call their subsequent posts trolling. I think that their comments about Fut. Perf. were a bit over the line, however. A claim that someone's "adminship requires review" is a serious matter, and editors who make claims like this should be prepared to back them up with serious evidence. I also think the others in the discussion who criticised Historiographer have very good points. Although we should assume a degree of good faith about Historiographer’s comment due to their low language ability, we can’t just ignore the obvious racial slur and POV, and their subsequent caustic talk page comments. We must also bear in mind that competence is required – although I don't think we can reasonably say that a low English level by itself is disruptive, there is no denying that it makes it harder to contribute usefully here. On balance, I think Historiographer deserved to be blocked, although I think 3 months might be a bit harsh in light of my interpretation of their comment above. And Penyulap, it’s probably best to leave this one alone now, and go and do something relaxing. I suggest a nice long bath and some chocolate. :-) Sorry for the tl;dr everyone. Best regards — Mr. Stradivarius on tour (have a chat) 06:13, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you. I don't see that your paraphrase differs from mine in any particularly important way, so I can't really see how it would be the basis for a milder assessment of the situation. In particular, all the five points I listed in conclusion to my earlier paraphrase (further up in this thread) still apply under your reading. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:53, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Guys, please understand that Penyulap is definitely not a troll, not is his intention to be trolling. Pen and I seem to understand each other pretty well (we have some attributes in common, heh!) Pen cares deeply when he sees something (I'm having real trouble hunting for the right words here, but our Aspie and Autie editors will understand it immediately) being considered from one angle (obvious to neurotypicals) and not being seen from an alternative (or possibly many alternative) angles. For the non-Autie types, it's a bit like a good musician hearing one of those god-awful electronic doorbells which cannot play a single tune in tune; or like an unscratchable itch, or someone scraping their fingernails down a blackboard. Very often we can't "see" something the way other people can see it, but here's the other side of the coin: we "see" things, clearly, which other people miss. That works both ways. But please don't label Pen as a troll; he's very far from being one. Pesky (talk) 09:36, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you everyone, I apologise Future Perfect at Sunrise, I am not attempting to troll anyone. I do have an insatiable drive to be certain that editors can see just what is going on in situations where I clearly see hidden dynamics, so that the community as a whole can judge a situation for themselves 'without distortion and concealment' :). This has nothing whatsoever to do with you, this is a desire to see that everyone has the same 'level playing field'. I only 'persist' until all significant hidden dynamics have been exposed, or to put it another way, the stick is not to hurt anyone, it's just to uncover everything, once that is done, I do not care one iota for the stick or the discussion, as it is not my decision that has any meaning at all. In this case I have nothing else to add and no opinion on the matter whatsoever as there are experts aplenty. I apologise if our interaction has been painful for you, my intentions had nothing to do with you beyond examining motives of everyone concerned. Penyulap ☏ 19:43, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Guys, please understand that Penyulap is definitely not a troll, not is his intention to be trolling. Pen and I seem to understand each other pretty well (we have some attributes in common, heh!) Pen cares deeply when he sees something (I'm having real trouble hunting for the right words here, but our Aspie and Autie editors will understand it immediately) being considered from one angle (obvious to neurotypicals) and not being seen from an alternative (or possibly many alternative) angles. For the non-Autie types, it's a bit like a good musician hearing one of those god-awful electronic doorbells which cannot play a single tune in tune; or like an unscratchable itch, or someone scraping their fingernails down a blackboard. Very often we can't "see" something the way other people can see it, but here's the other side of the coin: we "see" things, clearly, which other people miss. That works both ways. But please don't label Pen as a troll; he's very far from being one. Pesky (talk) 09:36, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- I briefly want to make a few points (I'm not a native Korean speaker but I do speak it and Korea is my field of expertise). Firstly, while there's probably a context here that I won't get on a cursory overview (though I have encountered the user's past edits while cleaning up Korea-related articles), the use of "jjokbari" should not be understood in the same light as racist remarks in English. Use of terms like jjokbari is pretty common among Koreans and is much milder than obvious racial slurs in English, and Korea itself is not a particularly "race-sensitive" society. Nationalism is hegemonic in Korea, so Koreans have a very different idea of what constitutes "NPOV". I don't mean this as some sort of relativist clarion call, I just wanted to add this since I think there's a danger of overlooking the cultural context here (I'm responding in particular to Future Perfect's remark about racial insensitivity meriting an indef block). (Stradivarius - I wouldn't get carried away with the Japanese/Korean similarities, sentence structures in Korean are actually very different to those of Japanese -- but in this case I think the meaning is pretty clear with or without grammatical interpolations.) I would be inclined to view his remarks as basically meaning "Don't let the Japanese trolls get you down". The parenthetical remark literally means "Don't throw bait" (don't trust Google Translate for Korean, their algorithms come up with some very bizarre translations for individual terms). --Tyrannus Mundi (talk) 22:27, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Redirects with non-breaking spaces (or strange accents?)
At Redirects for creation, redirects from the pinyin spellings Bùliǎo qíng and Bù liǎo qíng to Bu liao qing were requested. The request seemed reasonable to me, but I cannot create them because the titles supposedly contain "a non-breaking space or other unusual space character" (presumably it's the accented "a" that's the problem; for all I can tell the space is just an ordinary space). The error message said I should raise the issue at this noticeboard. Could an admin create the redirects? Huon (talk) 12:34, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Done -- Ed (Edgar181) 13:37, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Yes, both of those do contain disallowed characters and should not be created. I can create redirects without the invalid characters for you. 28bytes (talk) 13:38, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've moved these redirects to Bùliǎo qíng and Bù liǎo qíng, respectively. These look identical to the ones requested, but do not contain the hidden embedded characters that no one is likely to type. For future reference, if you see %E2%80%8B anyplace in the address bar, that's the blacklisted character; remove that and you should be able to create the redirect without admin assistance. 28bytes (talk) 13:46, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for catching that and fixing it. I thought it was simply the diacritics that were causing the problem, and didn't notice the hidden characters. :/ -- Ed (Edgar181) 14:00, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- No problem. I wouldn't have noticed myself if I hadn't stumbled across this list a while back. 28bytes (talk) 14:04, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Rule of thumb: if the blacklist tells you exactly what's wrong ("an non-breaking space or other unusual space character"), it's usually right. If it's vague or says nothing, it's usually a false positive. --Carnildo (talk) 23:37, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- No problem. I wouldn't have noticed myself if I hadn't stumbled across this list a while back. 28bytes (talk) 14:04, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for catching that and fixing it. I thought it was simply the diacritics that were causing the problem, and didn't notice the hidden characters. :/ -- Ed (Edgar181) 14:00, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've moved these redirects to Bùliǎo qíng and Bù liǎo qíng, respectively. These look identical to the ones requested, but do not contain the hidden embedded characters that no one is likely to type. For future reference, if you see %E2%80%8B anyplace in the address bar, that's the blacklisted character; remove that and you should be able to create the redirect without admin assistance. 28bytes (talk) 13:46, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
I was unaware we had such a list, and now don't understand why we do. Glancing at it, it is not obvious to me why those characters would be banned. If it's a valid way of spelling something, shouldn't people be able to search for it. Maybe someone comes across the unusual character (in a word or name) in text somewhere, and does a copy-and-paste to our search bar to learn more. Someone please explain to me why they shouldn't get a valid result. LadyofShalott 08:25, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- There is already a redirect at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E2%80%8B. The problem would not be for redirects so much as article forks, that look like the real named article but have a different point of view from the original. You could imagine any number of controversial topics where someone would like their own version of a topic up here. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:54, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Stale merge proposal
Foo was here. One article still has the tag, the other doesn't. I would close it myself but it seems like an admin should finalize it. I was never involved in either article, I just came across it researching grafitti.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:18, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Closed now. Jafeluv (talk) 22:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Arbitration motion regarding Changes evidence limits in arbitration cases
Resolved by motion at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Motions that:
Users who are named parties to an arbitration case shall limit their evidence submission to no more than 1000 words in length. All other users submitting evidence to an arbitration case shall limit their evidence submission to no more than 500 words in length. All evidence must be presented on the case's /Evidence subpage. Evidence submissions significantly over the appropriate limit may be refactored by an arbitration clerk at the discretion of the clerks and Committee.
For the Arbitration Committee,
--Guerillero | My Talk 06:55, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Wikimedia Foundation endorsing Access2Research
Hey all
The Wikimedia Foundation has decided to endorse Access2Research and its petition to make research funded by the US government publicly accessible. This will be done by way of a blog post on Friday morning PST; as noted, we are not trying to speak on behalf of the community, but just the Foundation itself. You can read more in the FAQ, and leave any comments or questions you might have on its talkpage.
Thanks! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 19:21, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- This surprises me — I thought requiring open access was already a requirement for federally-funded research. Nyttend (talk) 10:06, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- If only :(. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 13:25, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
User ban
The activities of User "Earth Exploding Live" first came to my attention when they trolled and defaced my blog on blogspot. They insulted me and gave out my personal information. Naturally, I reported them immediately to Google and they banned/deleted the accounts. They then pointed to this page, and said that they were someone called "Earth Exploding Live" and that I should propose a ban for them, which seems reasonable given what they did to ME. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JavinKline132 (talk • contribs) 20:28, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- Two things. 1) Users don't get blocked or banned for activities occurring solely off-wiki. Sucks that whoever this is has been fucking with you, but Wikipedia won't ban someone based on your say-so about something that happened on another site. 2) The user (Earth Exploding Live (talk · contribs)) was blocked a week ago anyway. → ROUX ₪ 20:34, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- And a third thing: seems pretty obvious to me that you are EEL, as they would already know they have been permanently blocked from editing here. Stop wasting our time. → ROUX ₪ 20:36, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, why is it obvious this user is EEL? Deleted contribs? CU? Something else? Egg Centric 20:53, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- EEL was blocked a week ago. The complainant showed up today to request a ban. Do you really think that either 1) JavinKline waited a week to come here, or 2) that EEL didn't know they were blocked? → ROUX ₪ 21:10, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- WRT Q1: I've absolutely no idea. I could see someone who ran a part time blog waiting a week, sure. Bear in mind I have no idea about the back story of this (except what I'm about to say), so if you know something about the blogs they've been targetting that makes this point ridiculous, apologies. Moving onto Q2 - completely agree, I'm 100% sure that I know that EEL knew they were blocked cause I remember seeing them on AN or ANI and telling em that there was no point in what they were doing cause they would be WP:DENYd. Egg Centric 23:06, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- Nevertheless the IP action afterwards makes it extremely likely you are correct. So what can I say? Sorry if you thought I was doubting you - I was just questioning you, and I still think t'was the right thing to do cause I still don't see how you could tell... Egg Centric 23:10, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- I could tell because I have this thing called a brain. I use it to think. Approximately three femtoseconds of deduction brought me to that conclusion. → ROUX ₪ 21:03, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Nevertheless the IP action afterwards makes it extremely likely you are correct. So what can I say? Sorry if you thought I was doubting you - I was just questioning you, and I still think t'was the right thing to do cause I still don't see how you could tell... Egg Centric 23:10, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- WRT Q1: I've absolutely no idea. I could see someone who ran a part time blog waiting a week, sure. Bear in mind I have no idea about the back story of this (except what I'm about to say), so if you know something about the blogs they've been targetting that makes this point ridiculous, apologies. Moving onto Q2 - completely agree, I'm 100% sure that I know that EEL knew they were blocked cause I remember seeing them on AN or ANI and telling em that there was no point in what they were doing cause they would be WP:DENYd. Egg Centric 23:06, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- EEL was blocked a week ago. The complainant showed up today to request a ban. Do you really think that either 1) JavinKline waited a week to come here, or 2) that EEL didn't know they were blocked? → ROUX ₪ 21:10, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, why is it obvious this user is EEL? Deleted contribs? CU? Something else? Egg Centric 20:53, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Category:Wikipedia semi-protected edit requests needs some love, it is currently heavily backlogged with about 70 requests, many more the a week old. While responding to semi-protected edit requests is not limited to administrators, I'm mentioning it here as responding to requests is an activity that watchers of this page are likely to be able to help out with. It is important we try to reduce the backlog, as requested semi-protected edits significantly reduce the negative impact of semi-protection on IP editors (and new accounts), and failing to respond in a timely manner undermines that. Monty845 04:10, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Highly recommended. You get to see quality discussion like "Just admit that my star of David is bigger than yours." Jenks24 (talk) 04:35, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
request
In this article most og it source is out of reach or is not available that the article information can not check to it source and can not use and refer in other wiki, please check article and correct information. Thanks. --H.b.sh (talk) 06:46, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's hard to understand what your concern is, but this doesn't appear to require intervention from admins. You may wish to ask for assistance at: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft. Nick-D (talk) 08:24, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Unusual page Wikipedia:Administator's noticeboard
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- Redirected and protected. MastCell Talk 20:55, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Hello everyone, i just came across this unusual page Wikipedia:Administator's noticeboard. Looking at the page history, it isn't being monitored for anything like vandalism and only 4 user talk pages link there which are User talk:Ta bu shi da yu/Archive10, User talk:Cecropia/Archive 10, User:ReDM0oN/cool3 and User talk:70.234.132.146. I don't think that this page actually needs to be kept for any meaningful purpose as the page just has the history of linking the redirect itself and contains inappropriate content in it . The page should rather be deleted without any issues as it contains personal attacks in it. Thanks. TheGeneralUser (talk) 11:32, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Um - what page are you actually trying to report here? GiantSnowman 11:37, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- After i posted the query, the page had been redirected by User:Doc9871 to this page. Please check the page edit history and you all will know everything that i said above. Thank you. TheGeneralUser (talk) 11:41, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Doc hasn't edited the page since your original post. GiantSnowman 11:44, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Administator's noticeboard (note the different placement of the apostrophe), a redirect to this page, was in a vandalized state but has now been fixed. -- Ed (Edgar181) 11:45, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying - I have protected that page to prevent further abuse. GiantSnowman 11:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Ridiculous. It gets hacked every three years so we FPP??? Nobody Ent 11:53, 25 May 2012 (UTC)- It's just a redirect, and not one that's likely to invite any legitimate edit. Plus it has absolutely no watchers aside from Giant and Doc as a result of today's events. Full doesn't seem unreasonable to me (and trust me when I say I'm usually the one who has a problem with those). Equazcion (talk) 12:00, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Basically what Equazcion said - it's a page that should never be edited anyway due to its redirect nature, and it's one that, given where it redirects to, could be a viable target for abuse, that wouldn't be caught. GiantSnowman 12:02, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- But isn't deleting the page a better option as this is an unnecessary redirect ? TheGeneralUser (talk) 12:05, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Upon further review -- based on how long the hack was undetetected: Never mind Nobody Ent 12:08, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's just a redirect, and not one that's likely to invite any legitimate edit. Plus it has absolutely no watchers aside from Giant and Doc as a result of today's events. Full doesn't seem unreasonable to me (and trust me when I say I'm usually the one who has a problem with those). Equazcion (talk) 12:00, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying - I have protected that page to prevent further abuse. GiantSnowman 11:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Administator's noticeboard (note the different placement of the apostrophe), a redirect to this page, was in a vandalized state but has now been fixed. -- Ed (Edgar181) 11:45, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I removed the vandalism that was on the redirect page after seeing this thread. It probably could have been done by the thread opener - be bold! It's a redirect, in case someone misspells "Administrator" as "Administator" (leaving out one "r"), as I see it. Doc talk 11:48, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes see! I was talking about this page Wikipedia:Administator's noticeboard and not Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard, Doc9871 had redirected that page to this one 2 minutes after this post so that's why GiantSnowman you had got redirected to this page Wikipedia:Administator's noticeboard and were checking it's history :). Now Edgar181 has solved the problem. But i am still not sure that whether the page should be redirected here or deleted ? And there is another revision that needs to be deleted, this one which is still left out [91] as it is inappropriate just like that later one. And Doc9871 i would have easily done it but the page was just not right and i had to report it here :). Thank you all for the quick response and solving the problem! TheGeneralUser (talk) 11:56, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- I missed that as well - but, then again, I can't remember the last time I spelled "Administrators' noticeboard" as anything other than WP:AN. Good catch. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 12:37, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes see! I was talking about this page Wikipedia:Administator's noticeboard and not Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard, Doc9871 had redirected that page to this one 2 minutes after this post so that's why GiantSnowman you had got redirected to this page Wikipedia:Administator's noticeboard and were checking it's history :). Now Edgar181 has solved the problem. But i am still not sure that whether the page should be redirected here or deleted ? And there is another revision that needs to be deleted, this one which is still left out [91] as it is inappropriate just like that later one. And Doc9871 i would have easily done it but the page was just not right and i had to report it here :). Thank you all for the quick response and solving the problem! TheGeneralUser (talk) 11:56, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Doc hasn't edited the page since your original post. GiantSnowman 11:44, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- After i posted the query, the page had been redirected by User:Doc9871 to this page. Please check the page edit history and you all will know everything that i said above. Thank you. TheGeneralUser (talk) 11:41, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
"The wrong version" w/ BLP-violation
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
List of Native American women of the United States currently makes a claim about a living person that is unsubstantiated. Please correct this. WP:BLP overrides "the wrong version". Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 19:05, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm completely uninvolved in this dispute. Looking over the talk page, it appears this dispute is over Elizabeth Warren. Apparently, she self-identifies as a Native American[92] but others dispute this. I take no opinion on whether she should be on the list, but this request seems more like an attempt to win a content dispute then an actual effort to protect a living person. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:32, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Given that most of the entries have no sources I can only guess they were looking at this one. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 19:40, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- In her past, Elizabeth Warren listed herself as having Cherokee heritage, from one of her ancestors. This past action, laughable as it appears today given her lily-white complexion, is being used by a small but vocal band of editors who want to rub her nose in her past mistakes. The inclusion in the list is politically motivated; an effort to hurt Warren. That is what the BLP issue is. Binksternet (talk) 20:08, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- What does her skin colour have to do with it? I know a little girl with skin almost as pale as mine and blonde hair but she is an Inuk. All my kids and grandchildren look kabloonak but are all Inuit. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 20:23, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've edited through protection to remove Warren. That article is not a platform to push a political campaign talking point about a living person, and editors using it as such should be gently re-educated that this site is not a venue for trying to score political points (or perhaps sanctioned, if they have a history of doing so). I have no opinion on whether the "Native American" issue is notable and relevant enough for mention in Elizabeth Warren's biography, but it is clearly inappropriate to edit-war over a list article to try to maximize the visibility of what is clearly an election-season attack line. MastCell Talk 20:26, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you. I haven't kept as much an eye on this list as I keep on List of Native American actors. I will try to do better in the future and have left a note about this on the talkpage of the article in question. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 20:32, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Why exactly did you remove this, when Warren herself still makes and stands by the claim? Regardless of what you feel about editors intentions, articles like http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0512/76756.html show she still self identifies this way. Arkon (talk) 20:37, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, yeah, that's why we have List of people of self-identified Cherokee ancestry (there are so many people claiming Cherokee-stories, it does warrant a list), she's on it. The list in question is for tribal members as defined by the nations themselves; and she's not a citizen. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 20:43, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Gotcha, there are apparently as many lists as there are people self identifying as Cherokee :) Anyway, still don't see this as either a BLP issue or worthy of a thread here. Least it's resolved. Arkon (talk) 20:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, yeah, that's why we have List of people of self-identified Cherokee ancestry (there are so many people claiming Cherokee-stories, it does warrant a list), she's on it. The list in question is for tribal members as defined by the nations themselves; and she's not a citizen. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 20:43, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
"Vandalism"?
Retracted per discussion on my talk page.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 21:14, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
|
---|
A relatively new user, User:Kairportflier, has warned an IP about vandalism, jumping straight to level 3, when the IP's recent contibutions do not appear to be unhelpful, and at the very least has acted in good faith. This user has also consistently removed queries from his user page, including a query of mine. Advice? (apologies if I have erred in the posting of this here, I have never done it before, but thought it was probably the right thing to do).--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 20:59, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
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XfD Topic Ban for User:TenPoundHammer
User:TenPoundHammer has recently been admonished by an RFC/U for his conduct in AfD's. Today he posted a notification on Sandstein's talk page noting that Sandstein had closed two recent AfD's (both were deleted, as was obvious from the redlinks) seeking the closure of three additional related AfD's. This poses a couple of problems:
- Sandstein had already commented at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1/0 (web comic) (3rd nomination) before TenPoundHammer posted the comment. Thus, TPH knew or should have known that Sandstein had an opinion on at least one of these three AfDs. Combine this with the explicit reference to two other Webcomics that TPH had AfD'ed and Sandstein had deleted, this is clearly a Biased and/or Partisan message within the scope of WP:CANVASS.
- Given the recently-closed RFC/U, this bodes exceptionally ill, since TPH is still revisiting AfD's where he didn't get his way (that is, deletion) the first time: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1/0 (web comic), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jack (webcomic).
- Overall, it is unfortunately clear to me that TenPoundHammer has not taken the RFC/U's advice under advisement: he clearly appears more interested in winning than conducting the deletion process with integrity.
- Note specificially that I am neither contesting the contents or closure of any of the deletion discussions, in which I have not participated, nor accusing Sandstein of any impropriety whatsoever. This is about TenPoundHammer, not Sandstein's closes or conduct.
- Thus, I'm proposing that User:TenPoundHammer is topic banned from all XfD processes, broadly construed, for six months in order to preserve the integrity of the process in the face of such abuses. Jclemens (talk) 21:05, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support as proposer. Jclemens (talk) 21:05, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
We generally don't just propose topic bans at ANI before discussing it first, as there may be other considerations or remedies available should the consensus decide that there is a problem. As that consensus hasn't developed, I find this a bit premature. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:09, 25 May 2012 (UTC)As Nobody Ent has moved this to AN, this point is moot. Striking. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:44, 25 May 2012 (UTC)- I've notified Sanstein about this ANI. Since he is central to the discussion, I believe this is proper. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:15, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Well, I think the RFC/U, which was open quite long and quite recently, was enough discussion that I felt comfortable jumping to a concrete proposal for discussion. Others may differ, but at least it's a clear starting point: I'm not asking for a block or a "please don't do that again"; I believe a topic ban is the best way forward. While I disagree that Sandstein is "central" to this discussion, I agree that you're right to notify him that he's been mentioned, and apologize for neglecting to do that myself. Jclemens (talk) 21:25, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Reluctant support. TPH has, for years, been... unwilling to listen when it comes to XfDs, to slow down, to stop shrieking his head off demanding closures as soon as the clock ticks, etc etc. While his core intentions are probably good, his execution is poor (to say the least), and thus banning him from XfD for a while would probably be good for him, and save other people a lot of recurring headaches. → ROUX ₪ 21:17, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- I see nothing wrong with at least the Dominic Deegan and 1/0 AFDs. Both were closed as "no consensus" several years ago. I renominated the others because I felt their past AFDs did not address the issues of reliable sources — everyone was all "keep because it won an award", but far more AFDs have proven that said award is not notable. If you're hinging your keep entirely on a flimsy reasoning, does the AFD not require a second look? Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 21:35, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Unfuckingbelievable Support. Didn't you get it last week? What a senseless waste. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:38, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Profanity doesn't help your case. Your comment seems rather tendentious. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 21:39, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, it does. It takes a heck of a lot to get me so pissed off that I need to curse, and everybody knows that. I do not believe you're blowing your nose on the community after both the RFC and last week's AN/ANI report. An absolute insult to anyone who supported you last time, and any previous times. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:43, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Again. How is "renominate because the last AFD from SEVERAL YEARS AGO had flawed reasoning and/or was closed as no consensus" detrimental? I see nothing wrong with renominating because the AFD had nothing but WP:ITSNOTABLE or "It won an award that 47 other AFDs have proven is not enough to meet WP:WEB". If it were renominations like, 2 days later, I'd understand, but these are two YEARS later. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 21:45, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Comment Why would I be banned from all XFDs? What have I done wrong in CFD, TFD, MFD? Hell, how is "renominating after the last AFD was closed due to faulty reasoning or no consensus" a bad thing? Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 21:40, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hammer, I think this is part of the problem, that you don't see what many have seen, and many more of us have overlooked. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:46, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- A renomination of something from several years ago — I'm not seeing how that is wrong. Just tell me how THAT is wrong. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 21:47, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support; I have to say, looking at the issues and Bwilkins comment above, I must support. --Thine Antique Pen (talk • contributions) 21:50, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support and it breaks my heart to have to do it. I really like you Hammer, and I've defended you more than once. I believe you when you say that you don't get it, as your actions seem perfectly fine to you but not to everyone else. Even when taking up for you, I have to wince a little, but I can't this time. You are too aggressive with deletions, period. You need to take the time, reevaluate your methods and develop some new ones here. You come across like a pit bull in regards to deletions, and I would rather see them put you on a leash than put you down, old friend. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Will you just answer the question I've asked 14 times in this discussion?! Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 21:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- You push the limits in every way Hammer. You shouldn't have went to Sandstein's page, you seem obsessed with deleting, and it is disruptive and bad for Wikipedia. You need a break, for your own good. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:56, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, one canvassing is all I need to be burnt at the stake huh? In my book it's not canvassing unless you say "hey, go !vote delete for me here". Which is not the same thing as "You were in this AFD, here's a related one I'd like you to look at". Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 21:58, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose I don't see evidence of wrongdoing here. Frankly, there's a LOT of articles that would have passed an AFD in 2008 (or 2007, or 2009, etc.) that wouldn't pass now due to our increased and ever-increasing focus on verifiable information from reliable sources. WP:CCC and all that. Besides, if TPH is punished for renominating an article for AFD after several years, which isn't against any rule that I know of, what about users who keep going back to DRV with the same articles month after month? Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 21:57, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- THANK YOU. I said that five times already and no one will listen. WHAT IS WRONG with renominating after a several year gap? Several YEARS, folks, not days. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 21:58, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Comment Neither oppose nor support, because I'm not sufficiently familiar with the situation. I'm disturbed by the proposer's objection to renomination of old AFDs — when it's been years since an AFD (especially when it ended with a no-consensus close), it's not disruptive to renominate it. Nyttend (talk) 22:02, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Listen to Nyttend, people. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 22:06, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose With great respect for everyone involved as I don't see the message TPH left on S's talk page to be a technical violation of WP:CANVASS, as it is neither Mass posting NOR Biased NOR
PartisanNOR Secret. I accept that there is a perception of an issue related to the recent RFC/U, and I can offer no comment in that regard. Cheers, JoeSperrazza (talk) 22:11, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- The nominator makes the point that the message could be described as Partisan. I still oppose, as the issue of renominating old AfDs does not seem to be contrary to policy. JoeSperrazza (talk) 22:31, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose - I am honestly at a loss why this campaign against Mr. Hammer is being conducted. There was an RFC on his conduct at AfD, which resulted in no consensus and no action — with those bringing the case having failed miserably to prove disruption, trolling, or a failure to abide by policy. Just as soon as that closed, his opponents had him back at ANI with a similar whine-a-thon — and that ended up scrolling off the page without an administrator even taking the time to close the pointless, directionless rehash of a discussion. But it's not the lack of merit behind their failed efforts to burn Mr. Hammer that matters to his foes, I suppose, it's just keeping that User Name "in the news" so that they can move for the kill. NOW the other shoe drops — having failed not once but twice to prove disruption, they move for a massive six month topic ban based on................ nothing! This is asinine! I have a very different perspective towards where the keep/delete lines should be drawn than Mr. Hammer does, but he is NOT disruptive of the process and he SHOULD have a right to attempt to advance his perspective without being bullied by those who disagree with him. THERE IS NO WRONGDOING PROVEN against Mr. Hammer, how can he "disregard" or "not take seriously" failed bureaucratic actions against him? But the pitchfork-wielding mob needs their dose of adrenaline, I guess.... Nuts. Carrite (talk) 22:13, 25 May 2012 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 22:29, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Oppose: I see nothing wrong with the renominations listed above BUT the message on Sandstein's talk page is less than neutral and not to be condoned. J04n(talk page) 22:16, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose/Support blah, blah, blah who gives a f***. Grow up. Let's get back to building an encyclopedia instead of all this diva crap. Tigerboy1966 22:18, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose - Based on the lack of any conclusions from the RFC/U and the ANI on TPH's actions last week, while TPH may be pushing good faith, there needs to be a lot more here to insist on a block as admin action. As Nyytend pointed out, renom'ing at AFD articles after a couple years is completely reasonable, particularly since TPH has argued that something changed (the contribution of awards like Ursa Major towards notability) instead of just restarting a IDONTLIKEIT-type argument. Yes, trout to TPH to work a bit less aggressively towards these ends (such as opening a discussion at web comics project to try to resolve the issue beforehand), but stuff like that is neither required or demanded by any policy/guideline - TPH is using valid processes to challenge articles he believes aren't appropriate. --MASEM (t) 22:20, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose per Andrew Lenahan. I object to banning someone when one of the reason is "renominating an article that was nominated years before" and for treating WP:BEFORE as if it is a policy. That said, canvassing is to be avoided, and not all AFDs were well chosen. A trout is more appropriate than a ban. But the RFC/U was not the open and shut case that the OP here states it to have been. . Edison (talk) 22:22, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Comment I admit I could've phrased my comments to Sandstein a little more neutrally, but I still don't think it's canvassing unless you outright tell someone to !vote a certain way. I was not asking Sandstein to !vote "delete" in the AFDs — just asking him to weigh in since he'd handled AFDs on similar topics. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 22:28, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose I'm not familiar with TPH and AfDs in general but, in isolation, I don't see the message on Sandstein's page as problematic. I've had editors ask me not to take admin action on particular articles because they think they know which way I'll read consensus (they are usually wrong) and that's just a normal business practice. No admin is obliged to act on a user request. --regentspark (comment) 22:33, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose- 6 months is far too long. Consider limiting quantity to single nomination or one consolidated definitely related set per listing period through 30 June. Dru of Id (talk) 22:36, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've seen worse than 'You close discussions about topic X; editor Y is doing Z.' Dru of Id (talk) 22:46, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose I raised the RFC/U/. I'd like to see this topic ban - but not for this reason. This is just nit-picking over the letter of policy, not principles, and we shouldn't work that way. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:37, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Comment: I cannot endorse such a long topic ban at this time. In this thread I suggested some restrictions that seemed to me to meet most of the concerns raised without being unduly burdensome. Bovlb (talk) 22:38, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Suggest (noting the substantial opposition to an actual XfD ban) a 3 month strict probation regarding his behaviour at XfDs, including a ban on any solicitication of anyone at all in any regard to any XfDs, as well as a bar on him engaging in any of the behaviours which were rightly noted at the RFC/U. Collect (talk) 22:47, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose This proposal is vastly out of proportion to the outcome of the RfC/U, where there was nothing near a consensus for any ban at all. Renominating AfDs was also covered at the RfC/U, where, again, there was no consensus that there was a problem. As for posting on Sandstein's talk page, that was questionable although I did not see it as canvassing. In any event, proposing a 6 month ban because of that posting is vastly out of proportion to what happened. Logical Cowboy (talk) 23:01, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose Whilst TPH may well be a pitt-bull who requires a leash, this proposal requires a foundation on an incident. An examination of that foundation upon which you have rested your proposal will show those interested that it has insufficient merit at this time. Better to be patient waiting for something satisfactory to come along, rather than a false start like this proposal, which will fail. Penyulap ☏ 23:05, 25 May 2012 (UTC)