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:So wiki is outa San Francisco? Boy they musta got a rise about my comments on the [[anal sex]] and the abomination deal in the [[sefer torah]], which REDVER never answered. No wonder the site leans so far to the left, it's almost bending over. Just so you know RED, the Jews don't accept a gay way of life, it's an abomination. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Youknowbest|Youknowbest]] ([[User talk:Youknowbest|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Youknowbest|contribs]]) 21:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
:So wiki is outa San Francisco? Boy they musta got a rise about my comments on the [[anal sex]] and the abomination deal in the [[sefer torah]], which REDVER never answered. No wonder the site leans so far to the left, it's almost bending over. Just so you know RED, the Jews don't accept a gay way of life, it's an abomination. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Youknowbest|Youknowbest]] ([[User talk:Youknowbest|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Youknowbest|contribs]]) 21:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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::I don't get it; whatcha talking about YKB? [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 21:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC) |
::I don't get it; whatcha talking about YKB? [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 21:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC) |
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:::Further up this thread, YKB switched targets from... well, whatever it was... to suddenly talking about homosexuality and how much of something it is about something and such. To which I didn't rise, which must have been very annoying for him. But he missed the point that I don't care what he thinks about what I do in the privacy of my own home. Or elsewhere, on occasion. He's entitled to his worthless views. I'm just in the whole poky-bum-sex thing for the cock, not the politics. ➨ <font color="red">❝'''[[User talk:Redvers|ЯEDVERS]]'''❞</font> [[User:Redvers/Say no to Commons|a sweet and tender hooligan]] 21:31, 22 October 2008 (UTC) |
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== Issue with shared ip template on 76.7.95.112 == |
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Admin User:Hemanshu making non-MOS edits and refusing to answer talk page
Bringing this here from WP:WQA. User:It Is Me Here makes a convincing case here that Hemanshu is being totally unresponsive in the face of arguably counterproductive edits (and certainly non-consensus edits).
Hopefully this can be resolved without involving the Arbcom.. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:24, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think ArbCom is necessary just yet, nor that anything can be accomplished here right now. But if he continues with such edits and remains entirely unresponsive, a block may become necessary, and should he then proceed to unblock himself despite consensus to the contrary, an emergency desysop by ArbCom may be the way to go. Weird stuff. At any rate, I've notified him of this thread, as should always be done. Here's also a permlink to the WQA section. Everyme 00:05, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- I see. Please note that Hemanshu's (contributions) last edit to his talk page was in April 2006 and it was to delete some messages. The last time he replied to a post on his talk page was in 2005 (which does also show, incidentally, that he does know how to do it). It Is Me Here (talk) 06:47, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- He also never uses edit summaries, something I have mentioned to him on his talk page. I think we need to try for a few days to discuss this on his talk page and if he doesn't respond and continue, I agree that he should be blocked. Doug Weller (talk) 07:11, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- I heard he also eats puppies. --MZMcBride (talk) 08:03, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- He's an Admin, we should expect certain standards of Admins. Doug Weller (talk) 08:34, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- Note he's been editing for almost 5 years, things were different back then (not that that is an excuse). John Reaves 08:55, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- Point of note: he is an administrator, yes, but he has not used his administrator tools for some years (with a single exception in February 2008: one, bog-standard anonymous vandal block). Whether that means he should be held to the same extent to the same standards of conduct as an active administrator is, of course, a parallel—but important—debate. – Anthøny (talk) 10:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- Note he's been editing for almost 5 years, things were different back then (not that that is an excuse). John Reaves 08:55, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- He's an Admin, we should expect certain standards of Admins. Doug Weller (talk) 08:34, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- I heard he also eats puppies. --MZMcBride (talk) 08:03, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- Has anyone thought of emailing him their concerns? He does have email enabled. MBisanz talk 09:04, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- Heh, this is just like the CSCWEM mess. Everyone's like, "Well, let's give him a chance to respond first." "No, uh, we already did that." "Well... do it again." "Okay". (time passes) "CSCWEM is not responding to talk page messages." "Well, let's give him a chance to respond first." etcetra ;D
- Anyway, yes, MBisanz is right, e-mail is the next step. If after a couple of weeks he doesn't respond to the e-mail and/or continues disruptive edits despite the e-mail, I agree next step would be a block. If he unblocks himself without responding, only then would be ArbCom. I only mentioned ArbCom in my initial comment because I don't imagine it will ever come to that point.
- I guess I'll fire off the e-mail. I was sorta hoping someone who knew him would, but it doesn't look like anybody knows him. heh... --Jaysweet (talk) 15:39, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- Here is the full text of the e-mail I sent:
- Hi Hemanshu. Please be aware of the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Admin_User:Hemanshu_making_non-MOS_edits_and_refusing_to_answer_talk_page
- I'm sorry if my initial report came across confrontationally, I was mentioning what I hoped did NOT happen and I guess it came across as if I was suggesting it SHOULD happen. heh, oh well... Anyway, there are legitimate concerns over your Wikifying of dates (appears to be contraindicated by MoS) and multiple attempts to contact you on your talk page have not been successful. If you could just weigh in with an explanation of what's up, that would be appreciated. Thanks!
- ---Jay Sweet
- Hopefully he'll see that and we can get this all sorted out with no mess! :) --Jaysweet (talk) 15:42, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- Here is the full text of the e-mail I sent:
- According to SUL Tool he has accounts on other wikis, we might try posting to his talk pages there and emailing there (if he has a different email registered at enwiki and ennews for instance). Jaysweet, since you did the initial email, could you do these as well? MBisanz talk 15:49, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- Excuse me. Since when did MOS become policy? If you disagree with his edits, fix them. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 19:45, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- In many situation, you would be correct. But adding links to dates is rarely useful and therefore has been largely abandoned, which means it's really not so much a matter of case-by-case editor discretion (although datelinks are sometimes useful) but of basic formatting. People just have to run around and clean up after him and the fact that he doesn't use edit summaries nor respond at all makes it a bit difficult to actually see the good intentions in his editing beyond simply assuming good faith as we all do. Everyme 21:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- Although the "delete all date links" crowd has run roughshod over the opposition, it's not basic formatting, it's opinion. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 22:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- Mindless overlinking and things like flagicon overkill are objectively bad. Some people just keep not getting it. Everyme 22:28, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- Violating MoS is not a reason to block, of course. Making a non-consensus edit (which, presumably, would be a valid way to classify any non-MoS edit), having another editor call you out on it, and then continuing to make the same/similar non-consensus edits without responding on the talk page... that's not an insta-block, but if it persists, it is blockable. --Jaysweet (talk) 19:12, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- Mindless overlinking and things like flagicon overkill are objectively bad. Some people just keep not getting it. Everyme 22:28, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- Although the "delete all date links" crowd has run roughshod over the opposition, it's not basic formatting, it's opinion. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 22:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- In many situation, you would be correct. But adding links to dates is rarely useful and therefore has been largely abandoned, which means it's really not so much a matter of case-by-case editor discretion (although datelinks are sometimes useful) but of basic formatting. People just have to run around and clean up after him and the fact that he doesn't use edit summaries nor respond at all makes it a bit difficult to actually see the good intentions in his editing beyond simply assuming good faith as we all do. Everyme 21:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- It appears Hemanshu castes a decent internet presence. Jaysweet, I'm going to send you a list of alternate emails he uses that you might try him at. MBisanz talk 21:12, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- Here is another fresh addition of date links, still with no talk page response or edit summary. It Is Me Here (talk) 18:53, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
This is totally inappropriate behavior; he's acting against consensus on a mass scale and is unwilling to reply and explain himself. If he does this again, he should be blocked. Everyking (talk) 04:17, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
- He made two edits to Odwalla, solely for the purpose of linking dates, just two hours ago. He is ignoring consensus and ignoring the concerns that have been raised. I don't think anything less than a block will get the message across at this point. Everyking (talk) 06:48, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- Diff. It Is Me Here (talk) 08:24, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- If [1] doesn't do anything, well, its self-explanatory the next steps. MBisanz talk 21:34, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- Filed at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Request_for_desysop_and_block_of_administrator_Hemanshu. MBisanz talk 02:19, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Since he's not using his admin rights, this is just a blocking situation, not a desysopping one. There is no need to file for arbitration. If it is agreed he should be blocked, just block. This specifically falls outside of what should be requested for arbitration. Your claim is that an admin can unblock themselves. If he does that only then does this become a desysopping situation. It doesn't become one pre-emptively. - Taxman Talk 02:31, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
It might be better to block now, pending communication, and then if he still fails to communicate, the argument for desysopping would be stronger. The immediate problem is editorial, which a block would fix; the refusal to communicate, combined with low-level editing in defiance of consensus, suggests a good case for desysopping, but that case would be stronger if he was blocked and never asked for it to be lifted—and if he unblocked himself, then there'd be no question about it at all. Everyking (talk) 06:51, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
The Arbcom's members are universally rejecting this RfA, as they should. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 00:08, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- I can't see as this is a de-sysopping matter, since he's not abusing admin tools. If he's editing against consensus though, and he has been non-responsive, then a block would be in order. If I extend a lot of good faith, it might be possible that he's just using some odd device to connect, which is not clearly displaying the "you have a message" banner, and he may be no longer checking email at whichever address he has registered. So a brief 24-hour block might get his attention. Then if he responds with, "Oops, sorry, didn't see the messages, okay, I'll engage in discussion now", the block can be lifted. If not, then longer blocks can be issued as needed. If he uses his sysop access to override the block, then the arbs may need to get involved, but it's probably best if we just take things one step at a time. --Elonka 01:39, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, per FloNight's advice I opened Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Hemanshu, it still needs a second certifier. MBisanz talk 01:54, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
BLP/libel issue?
material reverted, user blocked by vigilant admin; block independantly reviewed. Non Curat Lex (talk) 06:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
(resolved again)... reopened to address question of new BLP issues, and ask for block review. ++Lar: t/c 15:41, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Is this diff a cause for concern vis a vis libel? Non Curat Lex (talk) 23:18, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
NEW, AFTER FURTHER REVIEW: The user has now posted links to articles here, avoiding the copyright problem, but potentially still raising a BLP/libel issues. Is this appropriate? Non Curat Lex (talk) 02:26, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- How does posting links to reputable news articles raise BLP/libel issues? Looie496 (talk) 02:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- The articles themselves attack a public figure and do not contain or discose independant sources. It may be a reach, but there could still be libel liability issues. Non Curat Lex (talk) 06:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- These are reliable sources. There's no BLP issue here. JoshuaZ (talk) 14:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- Disagree. Used on a user page, they pose an undue weight problem. The user is welcome to disclose that they have had prior conflict with that judge, but not to present biased viewpoints, even if they are reliable sources, (see WP:COATRACK as well). WP is not a blog or a forum for continuing conflict from elsewhere. Admins should review the deleted edits on this user's page for more insight into why this is problematic. ++Lar: t/c 15:27, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- These are reliable sources. There's no BLP issue here. JoshuaZ (talk) 14:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- The articles themselves attack a public figure and do not contain or discose independant sources. It may be a reach, but there could still be libel liability issues. Non Curat Lex (talk) 06:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
To clarify, as few people will have the background on this situation: On her userpage, this editor posted (1) a copyright news report and then (after it was removed and she was warned not to do it again), (2) a series of links to news reports with respect to the same person, with the edit summaries "my good news hurrah hurrah". It should be noted that this editor has a real-world adversarial relationship with the subject of these news articles (administrators can see her description of it in the first version of her userpage, now deleted in part for BLP reasons). The links were not proposed for article space, they were put in userspace by a user who has been asked repeatedly to leave the external battles behind. Behaviour like this is exactly why WP:BLP applies throughout all areas of the project. Risker (talk) 15:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks Risker. Since we're here, let me ask for review of my block of Kay Sieverding (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log). See my talk page recently... (topic "Query": User_talk:Lar#Query). I blocked this editor for a week (the next step up from 3 days) after my initial removal of the BLPvio/Copyvio text was undone by placing these links. Those who know me know that I am very reluctant to block, in general, and quick to give second chances and try to find other ways to deal with issues. This user is intransigent and either cannot or will not work within our norms and it's time to cut our losses and reduce the disruptive effect this user has. So far everyone who has reviewed it on my talk page has concurred with it, except Elonka. She has engaged in rather a long dialog with somewhat shifting goals as we've refuted various points raised. Right now I think she wants the block undone (since she doesn't agree it is a BLP violation to cite sources showing a clear adversary in a negative light without a chance to make them balanced as we do in an article) and redone under some other pretext. I'm not sure that's a good use of anyone's time and I ask that my block be endorsed, and her going to the user's page to contradict what I said be pointed out to her as less than helpful. ++Lar: t/c 15:39, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
It looks like everyone on Lar's page agrees that a block is called for, leaving the only area of disagreement the reason for the block. My two pennies - given her history here, the statements she has made regarding her case and the judge in the past, and the seeming agenda with which she edits Wikipedia in general... it is reasonable to interpret her posting the bit about the judge with the edit summary "my good news, hurrah hurrah" as violating BLP. Folks might disagree with how serious a violation it is, given the news has apparently been covered in reliable sources, but the presentation of the material is not irrelevant in considering the BLP policy.
Kay has been blocked before, and has had the full attention of two administrators and a number of editors for quite awhile because of her disruptive and at times combative editing style. She has been warned repeatedly about soapboxing about her personal legal history, and a block is warranted this time around solely on that basis. Whether BLP was the best of the various reasons to use in the log is irrelevant - the block is good, and Elonkas suggestion to unblock and reblock with a different reason is a nonstarter. Avruch T 15:52, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- That seems reasonable. Kay's unblock request doesn't help matters at all either. JoshuaZ (talk) 16:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- I echo Avruch's evaluation of this matter, and concur that Lar's original block was warranted. Anthøny (talk) 16:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- Endorse block. I've had my fair share of differences with Lar on many previous occasions, but not on this occasion - I am in complete agreement with Avruch's view. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:20, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- Endorse block Proper block, within discretion, no need to unblock at this time, let it run its course. MBisanz talk 18:05, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- Endorse block. User pages should not be used as a soapbox in real world legal battles. Also I do not consider some of these sources as reliable(e.g. [3]); they are breaking news (i.e. wild speculation), without a named journalist. See also Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Kay Sieverding. John Vandenberg (chat) 21:19, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- Comment. I am in agreement that a block was appropriate, though I disagree that there was a clear BLP violation here. A better block rationale might have been "disruption", "soapboxing", "inappropriate use of userpage", "tendentious editing", or "Wikipedia is not a battleground". Choosing a BLP rationale was fairly weak, and it is evident that not everyone is in agreement that there was an obvious BLP violation here. I would also like to say that I am very disappointed with how Lar has been behaving when his block was challenged at his talkpage. When independent editors/administrators expressed concerns to him about the block rationale, his response was to react with defensiveness, incivility, accusations of bad faith, and name-calling. Someone with steward access should be reacting with a far higher standard of behavior, and I hope Lar will take some time to think about how he could have handled this better. --Elonka 19:24, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
- I'm always open to feedback, but I thought this matter was resolved, as far as AN/I is concerned, anyway. I think your characterizations of how I handled the discussion at my talk are extremely wide of the mark (anyone else interested should feel free to review the entire thread and judge for themselves) and do you no credit. ++Lar: t/c 00:21, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- I'm always in favor of supporting accusations like "incivility, accusations of bad faith, and name calling" with diffs so that other readers can make an informed opinion. I thought we just dealt with the issue (in an ArbCom) of admins who make such charges about fellow editors at AN/I without substantiating diffs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:29, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
- Sure, the link is already in this thread, but here it is again: User talk:Lar#Query. --Elonka 20:35, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
- That's not a diff (but surely you know that). I'd like to see a specific diff to back up each of these charges: 1) incivility, 2) accusations of bad faith, and 3) name calling. These kinds of broadbrush accusations about other editors should always be backed by diffs, and we shouldn't fall into the habit of taking one person's "opinion" as evidence. Again, I thought we just went through that at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/C68-FM-SV. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:21, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
- Sure, the link is already in this thread, but here it is again: User talk:Lar#Query. --Elonka 20:35, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
- I echo Avruch's evaluation of this matter, and concur that Lar's original block was warranted. Anthøny (talk) 16:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- FYI Sandy, there is an RfC/User re: the editor's alleged misdeeds, with more diffs than you can shake a stick at. Non Curat Lex (talk) 22:43, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Honestly, there is very little gain to be had in carrying this discussion forward in this manner. If there is a need for a user or admin conduct RfC, or a more structured discussion, then have it in the appropriate place. But the underlying issue of this section, and the purpose for its existence on this page, seems to have been resolved. I think the best thing for everyone to do at this point is to let it go, and move on to more productive pursuits. Avruch T 23:35, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
- I always welcome constructive review of my actions, and more specifically, I am always open to recall if someone feels the need. Elonka would have to find someone else to start the petition though, per my eligibility requirements, since she's not open to recall. ++Lar: t/c 00:26, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think that this is a recall matter, but for the record, yes, I am open to recall. My standards are listed along with everyone else's at Wikipedia:Administrators open to recall/Admin criteria. --Elonka 02:59, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- I saw your last "recall". You're not open to recall. At least not as I would define it. That's OK, you don't have to be, most admins aren't, and there's nothing wrong or dishonorable about that. But it's disingenious to say you are. ++Lar: t/c 03:03, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- Lar, that's kind of the point of our voluntary recall process, is that each admin can set their own criteria. Looking through the list, there are vastly different standards from admin to admin. Now, if you want your own standards to say, "Elonka can't ask me to resign," that's fine, that's up to you. In fact, some admins even go the other way, saying, only someone from a certain list that they provide, is allowed to initiate a recall. It's really up to each admin what they choose. But if the criterion is, "an admin open to recall", well, I'm open to recall. I don't have to be, but I choose to be. --Elonka 03:18, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- Oddly, lecturing me on the point of a process I was instrumental in developing and promoting probably isn't going to earn you any style points with anyone. You do have a bit of a tendency to lecture others about stuff, don't you? Anyway, maybe you are recallable now. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that, and gladly. But you weren't before, when your last "recall" went down. Not in my view anyway, and not in the view of quite a few other people (or perhaps you forgot the hue and cry about it, culminating in an attempt to get ArbCom to get involved to make you stick to your supposed terms, which attempt failed only because ArbCom had the good sense to say they weren't going to get involved in a voluntary process? Remember? ) Hence my comment that you're not recallable. But this is all irrelevant. You were asked to provide diffs, but your last two posts have focused on irrelevancy. That means this matter's closed, as far as I am concerned. The block stands, the BLP violation isn't there on the page any more, and you've accused yet another editor of bad faith. All par for the course, and everything is business as usual. We're done. You can have the last word, and then let's archive it. ++Lar: t/c 03:51, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- Lar, that's kind of the point of our voluntary recall process, is that each admin can set their own criteria. Looking through the list, there are vastly different standards from admin to admin. Now, if you want your own standards to say, "Elonka can't ask me to resign," that's fine, that's up to you. In fact, some admins even go the other way, saying, only someone from a certain list that they provide, is allowed to initiate a recall. It's really up to each admin what they choose. But if the criterion is, "an admin open to recall", well, I'm open to recall. I don't have to be, but I choose to be. --Elonka 03:18, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- I saw your last "recall". You're not open to recall. At least not as I would define it. That's OK, you don't have to be, most admins aren't, and there's nothing wrong or dishonorable about that. But it's disingenious to say you are. ++Lar: t/c 03:03, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think that this is a recall matter, but for the record, yes, I am open to recall. My standards are listed along with everyone else's at Wikipedia:Administrators open to recall/Admin criteria. --Elonka 02:59, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
An update
Kay has not quit with her BLP violation-ating ways... see Special:Undelete/User_talk:Kay_Sieverding. She then deleted Risker's warning about it, which I restored, and followed up with a stern warning that she is about out of chances. I left the latest contribution though, at least for now. It may be time to cut losses here and just indefinitely block her and move on. Being the softie that I am, though, I'd probably let this block run out and see if by then she's gotten the drift yet. The wikiversity suggestion made in her RfC is a good one, perhaps there she could happily edit up a long instruction manual on how to self represent. But she already spurned that idea once. ++Lar: t/c 04:31, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- This thread is currently flagged both resolved, and not resolved. Which one is it?--Tznkai (talk) 15:10, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Resolved. --Elonka 20:02, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yes. But for the record Risker has just stubbbed out Kay's page, again after taking a good look at all the ... material that had ... accumulated there, and warned Kay again. I predict we'll be back here soon enough, to get yet another block endorsed. Sorry, but I'm about out of GF with this user. So I wouldn't be in any rush to archive this. It'll likely be back to unresolved shortly. (It would be awesome were I wrong!) ++Lar: t/c 18:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Resolved. --Elonka 20:02, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
This is all over... a dispute with a neighbor? Sheesh. Maybe it should be added to the appropriate policy page that warns against escalating blocks --NE2 19:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- eh? Could you elaborate on that? Fairly routine escalating blocks have been employed here so what is the warning you're thinking of? Thanks. ++Lar: t/c 19:29, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Saw VI?
So.. Saw VI has been confirmed; details are Saw V#Sequel. Problem is that Saw VI, the article, has been salted since last August for WP:CRYSTAL. Can it be unprotected and linked? We're eventually going to have to create an article on it. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 05:56, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- It seems odd to me that it would be salted as long as there hadn't been multiple attempts to recreate it. I see no such attempts. in the deletion log of the page. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 07:17, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- The reasons appear to be explained in the AFD. In any event, per HelloAnnyong's reasoning, I've unsalted it. Note that RFPP is thataway, though, for future reference. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 07:44, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, sorry about that. I think of RFPP for vandalism, but I guess this would have been something for them to do. I'll remember that for next time. Thanks. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 14:46, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- We also had Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Saw VII already. No sightings for Saw VIII so far, though :) – Sadalmelik ☎ 08:51, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- The reasons appear to be explained in the AFD. In any event, per HelloAnnyong's reasoning, I've unsalted it. Note that RFPP is thataway, though, for future reference. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 07:44, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Note - the current relevant policy on future film notability will preclude an independent article until filming is confirmed to have begun. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 00:13, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Please watchlist Colin Powell
I'm hoping this article can avoid semi-protection. If you look at the anon edits over the last hour they're mostly pretty good. Let's all keep an eye on it, and try not to protect it, at least for the next few hours while things are developing quickly. Thanks. Chick Bowen 16:15, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Improper off-wiki conduct by User:Alison on Encyclopedia Dramatica
Hello. I am just posting this here to inform you that User:Alison, an oversighter, checkuser and administrator, has posted dangerous personal information about a banned user off-wiki. Alison, who also has many posts on the Wikipedia Review, has recently (and yes, it has been confirmed to be her) signed up for Encyclopedia Dramatica and is contributing there regularly with personal attacks against a certain banned user. Whilst I am in no way condoning the behavior of JarlaxleArtemis, which is highly deplorable and has included disgusting threats, the way that Alison has insulted this user by taunting him with his personal information shows a complete disregard for the exceptional level of community trust placed on people who handle sensitive data relating to oversight and checkuser functions. Here are some of the things she has said (and I am omitting where she has given the user's real name and personal info in edit summaries there, and bowlderizing when necessary):
- "F**k off, G***p, you pestilant little child"
- "G***p, will you quit this s**t. We all know who you are, and "[name redacted]" has to be one of the faggiest names I've ever encountered"
- "[first name] FREAKIN' [surname]'S 1" PIECE OF TWITCHING MANHOOD - lawl!"
Her contribs on ED can be found at [address redacted - some indication of malware (see below)]
Because of this, I would like to instigate a discussion over whether her checkuser and oversight tools could be removed as she appears to have abused the trust that the community has put in her, and if she's willing to insult people with their private, non-public personal information on another website, there is no reason to believe she is trustworthy with the data she has the priviledge of access to in her position as a checkuser and more particularly an oversighter.--African Violin (talk) 17:34, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- Is this about the anon who's been threatening Alison? GoodDay (talk) 17:37, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- Note that this is African Violin's fifth contribution. D.M.N. (talk) 17:38, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- Not only that, but it's African Violin's last contribution. Blocked as trolling-only account. Nothing to see here. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:43, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- This is about Grawp. Nothing to be concerned about. -- How do you turn this on (talk) 17:39, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- (ec) I was just reaching for a This template must be substituted. tag...GbT/c 17:40, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- Note that this is African Violin's fifth contribution. D.M.N. (talk) 17:38, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sure you have a checkuser report from ED proving that this is Alison, right? ;o) Resolute 17:41, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
He just posted an unblock request--since this is more than likely Grawp/Jarlaxle, I locked his talk page down and redirected it to his userpage. Blueboy96 18:04, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Grawp-a-like! Nice try .... :) That may be my account, or it may not. Nobody seems to know - not even the great Grawp. Still, if there has been any publication of privacy or checkuser-related information over there, someone will surely provide diffs .... right? - Alison ❤ 18:08, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
- Bahahahaha nice one grawp, thanks for the lulz. «l| Ψrometheăn ™|l» (talk) 01:51, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- This failed so hard even 4chan doesn't want it. :D -Jéské Couriano (v^_^v) 03:26, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- What a waste of a fine username... bibliomaniac15 03:38, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Two words. Guys, it's one of the weirdest applications of BADSITES that I've ever seen. In an astounding moment of bass-ackwardness, a vandal comes to ANI to complain about an admin saying mean things on Encyclopedia Dramatica. In Soviet Russia, vandals complain about you! - Alison ❤ 04:47, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- This failed so hard even 4chan doesn't want it. :D -Jéské Couriano (v^_^v) 03:26, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- And for the record, I have personally redacted large quantities of personally identifying information on JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp from enwiki. Grawp has never requested information be oversighted on enwiki, though he could if he wanted. Note also, that this deletion review from last week was set to overturn until I requested it stay deleted in deference to Grawp's own privacy. The person closing the DRV (Spartaz) commented, "Wikipedia:Long term abuse/JarlaxleArtemis – Since this was nominated on the basis that the page may be useful to coordinate crosswiki responses to Grawp and given that Alison has confirmed that this is not necessary and cited the privacy policy I'm going to call this as no consensus to undelete". Rather than complaining, it might be nice to just say "thanks" every so often, y'know? - Alison ❤ 05:07, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Next thing you know they'll be knocking at your home door asking to have a little chat, or threatening to go to the "authorities". Or worse, maybe they'll even start calling your boss at work asking to get you fired or threatening you with bodily injury. No matter the many assumptions, which I think are way overboard, (just like this whoever put in this silly request), I believe there's a fine line that must be respected in between different organizations, and eventually real life. I trust it won't go too far in real life, but if they do start to harass you, I know a friend in Russia that works for the Hells Angels, they can go have a chat with them too and even put a bomb on their car if they start really harassing you. --CyclePat (talk) 06:58, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- And for the record, I have personally redacted large quantities of personally identifying information on JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp from enwiki. Grawp has never requested information be oversighted on enwiki, though he could if he wanted. Note also, that this deletion review from last week was set to overturn until I requested it stay deleted in deference to Grawp's own privacy. The person closing the DRV (Spartaz) commented, "Wikipedia:Long term abuse/JarlaxleArtemis – Since this was nominated on the basis that the page may be useful to coordinate crosswiki responses to Grawp and given that Alison has confirmed that this is not necessary and cited the privacy policy I'm going to call this as no consensus to undelete". Rather than complaining, it might be nice to just say "thanks" every so often, y'know? - Alison ❤ 05:07, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
[unindent] -By the way, I strongly urge people not to visit that link posted by the grawp/troll/sock who posted this report. I think it leads to malware (so said my Norton). Non Curat Lex (talk) 07:07, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Bahaha, thats the cherry on top. The link is harmless however i find it amusing how ED is classified as malware «l| Ψrometheăn ™|l» (talk) 07:33, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- No, really, something tried to shove a download down my throat. Non Curat Lex (talk) 07:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- NCL, the same thing happened to me. There was definitely something there, but my AV knocked it down. Dayewalker (talk) 07:43, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- That isn't how web browsers work... unless you are using Internet Explorer. BJTalk 10:15, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- NCL, the same thing happened to me. There was definitely something there, but my AV knocked it down. Dayewalker (talk) 07:43, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- No, really, something tried to shove a download down my throat. Non Curat Lex (talk) 07:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Seriously, please delete the damn link, it grabbed my computer and yes I have IE and serious security. I didn't understand what was going on until it was too late, stupid me. My husband is still having to work my computer today since he still hasn't gottem all the malware gone. He found 5 copies of it yesterday and Norton is still screaming that there is more to be taken care of. So please oversight it or whatever to remove it from the site so others, like me that don't know much about computers don't get bit. This is a nasty malware! I am using my husband's laptop for the first time and it's weird to use. Thanks in advance for removing it, and knock yourselves out with the jokes that I did this, I deserve it for my stupidity plus right about now I could use some laughs. --CrohnieGalTalk 10:54, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Firefox. BJTalk 11:08, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- I guess it's everyone-make-fun-of-the-clueless time. I followed a link from Wikipedia Review to ED not long ago and ended up having to restore my system to an earlier version to get rid of the resulting junk. Ha, ha, what a sap! Deor (talk) 11:16, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Firefox with noscript and ABP will be way more efficient than IE and Norton to protect you from malwares. AVs are needed when a malware is in but are bad at prevention. Use a non-administrator or temporary session if you want more security. I've been on ED a couple of times and had no problem. Though I surely don't advise to use ED in IE, or registering there if you don't want your IP exposed. Cenarium Talk 13:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- I guess it's everyone-make-fun-of-the-clueless time. I followed a link from Wikipedia Review to ED not long ago and ended up having to restore my system to an earlier version to get rid of the resulting junk. Ha, ha, what a sap! Deor (talk) 11:16, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Firefox. BJTalk 11:08, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Seriously, please delete the damn link, it grabbed my computer and yes I have IE and serious security. I didn't understand what was going on until it was too late, stupid me. My husband is still having to work my computer today since he still hasn't gottem all the malware gone. He found 5 copies of it yesterday and Norton is still screaming that there is more to be taken care of. So please oversight it or whatever to remove it from the site so others, like me that don't know much about computers don't get bit. This is a nasty malware! I am using my husband's laptop for the first time and it's weird to use. Thanks in advance for removing it, and knock yourselves out with the jokes that I did this, I deserve it for my stupidity plus right about now I could use some laughs. --CrohnieGalTalk 10:54, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
I just went to the ED link originally posted with IE 7.0 and had no problems except for some annoying ads and an attempt to open a PDF. A check of the running processes and a scan with Ad-aware afterwards confirmed that nothing was wrong. I did run Windows Update just the other day. (There's another possibility I've thought of but I won't speculate.) --NE2 20:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Two things. For me, IE6 survived trawling about on ED for a while. And the big question: Isn't conduct on ED supposed to be improper? Now maybe if the OP had accused her of not being witty enough - or offensive enough - maybe there'd be a case to answer. Just sayin'. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 19:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Consensus issue
Per discussion here and here, some of the editors believed that consensus existed to change the film infobox. A protected edit request was made, but there has been some concern that the admin has misread the consensus. Any fresh eyes willing to look this all over would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 00:19, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Seriously? Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 23:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Can someone unprotect it, vandalism is not excessive and it seems like a populer article atm. «l| Ψrometheăn ™|l» (talk) 04:28, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- A popular article for his recent endorsement of Obama, yes. But the attention is mostly in the form of vandalism. Semi-protection seems like a good idea. GrszReview! 04:31, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
We are on the verge of a dubious milestone
I just happened to check on the list of blocked User:MascotGuy socks and that list is showing a total of 990 blocked socks in a four-year period. There's no doubt we'll be hitting the magic 1000 mark in a week or two. There have been checkusers galore and yet this unsupervised child and his dynamic IP continue to pop up every so often and wreak havoc on the same basic list of articles. It's clear that the Foundation isn't interested in taking action, but it seems to me that simply blocking the dozen or so keywords and phrases he's placed on every sockpuppet name, this case can be solved or at least abated somewhat. There should also be a modification to this site's basic software which prevents logged-on users from creating new accounts. That's his MO. He creates one account which he uses to make several more. He's been quiet for a couple of days, but I fear it's only a matter of time before he sneaks online without his mommy's knowledge and start in again on his never-ending litany of cartoon subjects. If the Atomic Betty, Wilbur Hardee and Eloise: The Animated Series articles were on paper, he'd have worn out that paper a long time ago. I strongly believe that four years of this kid's antics are quite enough and something drastic needs to happen. I even tried to get him to agree to allowing me to tutor him, but in all this time, he has yet to place a single keystroke on a talk page. I'd welcome your comments. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 04:36, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- And why was he originally blocked? --CyclePat (talk) 06:15, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- And why should we "advertising this"? Have you ever heard of do not feed the trolls. Maybe this is a search for fame of some sort? And in the worst case, maybe it's not just the sock-puppet that is looking for fame but a little bit of the admins ourself that want to get notoriety. Let me say this once. NO! It's not a good idea. Simply put, from an outside point of view, without any involvement what so ever (I bet, I just got 5 paranoid admins to do a check-user on me!), this sounds like an example of bad Dispute Resolution or management on behalf of administrators; a lack of complacency to do what I formally use to call Associate Members Advocacy. --CyclePat (talk) 06:25, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- And what could admins do other than RBI? MascotGuy has in the past used a vastly dynamic IPs, which means effective rangeblocks would also block a couple of cities as collateral damage. But to the topic in hand, does anybody know whether a checkuser has been done since IPBlock exempt become available? Other than that the only thing I could think of would be trying to convince his parents to get a static IP. – Sadalmelik ☎ 06:56, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
The problem with this account isn't a matter of "fame" or even malice on the part of this individual. He was blocked primarily because of inaccurate and totally bogus information with a smattering of truth thrown in, not to mention a complete lack of interaction with other users. By no malice, I mean that one of his original sockpuppets early on in the game (mind you, this is four years ago) was named after his mother's e-mail account. Under my previous username, I actually made successful contact with this boy's mother via that e-mail address. She told me that he was autistic and she tried to limit his time spent online due to her rightful fear of predators. I was unable to make any further contact. What we have here is a young man in his late teens living in a fantasy world and, quite possibly, trying to help in his own strange way. When he was nicknamed "MascotGuy" by another user, this individual seems to have taken it as a compliment and uses he suffix "Guy" on quite a few socks. If not for my one-time contact, it would seem like we're dealing with a very determined troll when in fact we're dealing with a special needs kid with a dynamic IP and a skewed vision of what this site is about. In short, this is a special case IMO which needs special handling. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 06:47, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- I certainly disagree with blocking the keywords he uses in most of his account names - I severely doubt it would in any way stop him, and right now having a short list of likely names makes noticing his socks much, much easier. ~ mazca t|c 06:55, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- I also disagree with that suggestion: it's hard to imagine that he would see that his preferred username could not be registered and react by simply giving up and going away. Is it reasonable to hope that such an astonishingly persistent individual could be deterred by something so trivial? Furthermore, this would affect many other users, because you're talking about common words like "guy". I suspect there is no technical solution to this problem (beyond the "revert, block, ignore" cycle), but perhaps his mother could be contacted again and notified that her son is still regularly damaging Wikipedia after four years. Realistically, I can't see anything else that would work. Everyking (talk) 07:07, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
PS: I've been informed that we are well past the one thousand mark. Not all of the blocked socks have been arichived or tagged as blocked. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 06:55, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- I heard that his mother responded. I have an idea: "If Mascotguy is unable to civilly abide by Wikipedia's rules, his mother needs to be at his side when he edits Wikipedia. She should guide him and/or change his words whenever possible. If he acts uncivilly and/or violates policies he may be blocked." Perhaps Mascotguy and his mom could be an editor team working under one name, with his mother there to ensure that he follows policies. WhisperToMe (talk) 07:31, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- This woman has not replied at all since the initial contact. Is he really on that dynamic a system that we could not try to work with the ISP or simply block the range so where he cannot access Wikipedia at all?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- While a dynamic IP is obviously a problem, surely if he's exclusively editing from home it will all be through a particular ISP? Perhaps working with that ISP to contact his parents could prove profitable, and if not a rangeblock (anon, account creation blocked) could be considered - if his edits do make up a substantial proportion of the traffic from that ISP, it could be necessary to require legitimate users from it to go through the account-creator system. But yeah, a sticky situation. ~ mazca t|c 09:49, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- We can block fragments from usernames using the title blacklist but I agree with the foregoing that this would be a nuclear option. Stifle (talk) 11:47, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- While a dynamic IP is obviously a problem, surely if he's exclusively editing from home it will all be through a particular ISP? Perhaps working with that ISP to contact his parents could prove profitable, and if not a rangeblock (anon, account creation blocked) could be considered - if his edits do make up a substantial proportion of the traffic from that ISP, it could be necessary to require legitimate users from it to go through the account-creator system. But yeah, a sticky situation. ~ mazca t|c 09:49, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- This woman has not replied at all since the initial contact. Is he really on that dynamic a system that we could not try to work with the ISP or simply block the range so where he cannot access Wikipedia at all?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Call me cynical, but perhaps the new must-have accessory for Wikipedia trolls will be the mother who takes part in a brief email correspondence detailing the reasons (Asperger's, autism, whatever) for that editor's disruption. The editors, mothers, and emails in this post are fictitious and any resemblance to real editors, mothers, or emails is pure coinkydink. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 14:38, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Interesting point, Gwen. Ditto Sheffield Steel. If we assume you're right, then what we do have is someone with some real mental issues who treats this as an occasional game. The last thing I want to do is put this site on some sort of slippery slope toward more creative vandalism than what we're currently facing. It's just that the problem has gone on for far too long and it hasn't been handled directly with the ISP. I've raised my voice to the foundation and nothing has been done of which I'm aware. Until it does, all we can do is tag and bag. Another thought: On the assumption he's treating this as a game as evidenced by some of the links to damage he's done to other sites (up to and including the claim that his mother beats him and he vandalizes this site as a result), perhaps it's time to remove the long-tern abuse and discussion pages relating to the guy. He's on a world stage and he knows it. I think it's time to start to bring down the curtain one way or another. Thanks for the feedback. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 14:57, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Has the ISP been contacted? Behavior like this probably violates their terms of services. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm a little late to the discussion but as the apparent minder of MG (or at least WP:LTA/MG), I thought I'd share my thoughts. One quick thing out of the way first: I filled a CheckUser through side channels a few weeks ago and the two IPs used by the last two batches of accounts have been blocked for three months.
I don't think adding all of his account variations to the account blacklist or HBC NameWatcherBot would be helpful due to the large possibility of false positives. The only name that might be reasonable to add would be the "'s Glowball" or "5000" variations since they're unusual. Adding in "Guy" would be a disaster.
I think that what people are not realizing here is that we're all discussing MG as rational people who are willing to discuss things. MG is neither. His unwillingness to communicate is what got him banned in the first place. So discussions about contacting his mother, reaching out to him to be a better editor, or any type of two-way communication with him is pointless. In the four years that he's been around, he's made next to zero attempts at communicating and that is not likely to change any time soon. If his mental illness is true, then that just adds to not being able to communicate with him.
Contacting his ISP is an interesting thought, but convincing the abuse department there that his seemingly benign edits are bad would be a challenge. Taken in isolation and without context, his edits are really not bad compared to the obvious uhhh... colorful vandals out there.
I'm hoping that perhaps the discussed WP:Abuse filter may be of help with him if it ever gets enabled.
Really, MG is fairly benign as far as vandals go. I think we're just stuck doing the RBI thing. He's fairly obvious to find, block, and cleanup after (if you can catch him within a day). -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 22:04, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Request for iframe assistance from sysop
I would like to add the following iframe to my user page and to the article Ottawa.
- <iframe src="http://free.timeanddate.com/clock/i18xuati/n188/fn2/fs16/ftb/tt0/tw1/tm1" frameborder="0" width="303" height="25"></iframe>
- http://free.timeanddate.com/clock/i18xuati/n188/fn2/fs16/ftb/tt0/tw1/tm1
This page says that "CSO_iFrame is secure if the page is protected; so, only a wiki adminstrator with Sysop privileges can modify it." The proper extension for this MediaWiki code is now http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/CSO_iFrame_tag_and_extension. Thank you. --CyclePat (talk) 06:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Though there is a Mediawiki extension dealing with iframes, it is not enabled on Wikipedia and is unlikely to be enabled do to the potential abuse risks, sorry. Dragons flight (talk) 06:30, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
RMHED blanking pages under claim of BLP
RMHED (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has recently blanked a number of pages on well-known holocaust deniers and other living people on WP:BLP grounds,[4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14] claiming that they are poorly sourced. This follows WP:PROD-ing a number of unsourced BLPs, most of which have been reverted. Some believe that the editor is going too far.[15]
The editor claims to operate on a theory that all unsourced material in a BLP is inherently contentious[16]. However, that seems plainly at odds with BLP. If that that the case BLP would be quite brief - it would simply say "delete everything about a living person that is uncited" and we all go home. In reality BLP includes in its preamble (but does not define) as "contentious" material that is "positive, negative, or merely questionable". Much of what the editor is neither negative nor positive, and is not reasonably questionable either because it is well sourced, is obvious or readily verifiable, or is well-accepted or uncontroversial. Opposing a claim on procedural grounds having to do with citation links does not make the claim itself questionable. Others would disagree about policy, and clearly support RMHED's interpretation that everything unsourced is fair game[17].
Although sourcing is a debatable point bigger than a single AN/I thread, the wholesale blanking of pages is potentially disruptive so I propose that we discuss the matter sooner rather than later. The problem is really the edits, not the theory behind them. I'm bringing it here as a stopgap in hopes that we ask RMHED to put some thought into the matter rather than playing the human BLP-bot. Many or of the claims he is blanking are sourced, but not in typical style. There are articles that claims inline that so-and-so published book X in which he said Y, or that A claims B about C, than person N is in rock band O that released album P, or that Q "hit the headlines" over incident R. Those are all in fact sourced claims, but simply not in approved Wikipedia footnote format. A quick google search would easily find the actual citation links for these claims in most cases. Further, much of what is in fact unsourced is uncontentious. If we don't address this, there's a risk of losing a significant chunk of holocaust-related material for now, and whatever section of our encyclopedia RMHED wants to pacman-chomp next. If editors oppose this we may get into edit wars over BLP versus claims of blanking/vandalism. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 09:50, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- At a quick glance his removals look perfectly proper. Indeed good stuff. Any suggestion that someone is linked with holocaust denial needs cast-iron sourcing and if such is not there the claim and any implication of it needs immediately removed. Anyone wanting to put it back needs to properly source it. Give the man a barnstar.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 10:03, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- A barnstar for this?[18] Please don't encourage it. BLP is meant to improve the encyclopedia, not destroy it. But again, most of the material deleted was of the form "X said Y in book Z".Wikidemon (talk) 10:10, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, a barnstar for that. If you want to replace it, find some good secondary sourcing. That is exactly what BLP is for.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 10:12, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- I have to agree with Scott, especially on the Carlo Mattogno article. I don't think we should be condoning articles where the entire content is a bunch of descriptions about the person (especially such negative ones) based on the fact that another wiki wrote them a while ago. We should be having sources of our own. WP:BLP seems clear to me: "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons — whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable - should be removed.... "-- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:18, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Ridiculous and offensive. Carlo Mattongo is obviously a significant holocaust denier. Please spend five seconds on google finding the sourcing that is in the blanked article. The point of BLP is to protect Wikipedia from legal liability and avoid undue harm to living individuals, not to facilitate holocaust denial (which is a much greater harm, incidentally). Wikidemon (talk) 10:30, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- First, why is he "obviously" a significant holocaust denier? There are 80 people in Category:Holocaust deniers right now. Are all of the living ones obviously deniers as well? While I don't agree with the hit-and-run blanking, I did the same thing to John Gudenus here which had a source that no longer existed (and probably wasn't on point). If you can find sources, provide them into the articles (as I did). The fact that you feel that these articles are special and those facts don't require sources is an issue. BLP should be applied universally, if it is going to applied at all. It's not like he's blanking David Irving -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:40, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- (ec)"Obvious" to you is not good enough. The point of BLP is to prevent harm by prohibiting poorly sourced critical material on any living individual. You want negative stuff - the onus is on YOU to source it properly, not on the BLP enforcer. The minute we caveat such protections for living people with "except people we decide beforehand are not worth it" we open a dangerous door. There are no untermensch with BLP - no exceptions because we decide they are vile people who don't get rights. We protect one, we protect all. That's the essence of it.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 10:42, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- And if you're talking about legal liability, wrongly accusing someone of holocaust denial is grounds for a pretty strong libel case: your source has to be absolutely bulletproof if you're going to do so. If it's so obvious, go out and find a good, reliable source, and then add it to the article. BLP always applies - it doesn't matter who someone is. Ale_Jrbtalk 11:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Please don't get silly on the BLP kool-aid. I'm not stupid and no onus is on me. No, my argument is not to advocate that "don't deny the holocaust" is more important than BLP. If you read my post it is about the misuse of BLP for "hit-and-run" blanking, as Ricky81682 puts it. The editor I mentioned may be setting out on that course. Eleven articles today on the holocuast. Perhaps a hundred tomorrow on some other subject, perhaps baseball or automotive design? Better to deal with this before it becomes a blow-up. It goes to the "five seconds on google" comment. The only contentious claim in the article is the summary/lead statement that Carlo Mattongo is a holocaust denier. That's where the editor's WP:POINT is strongest but even there one can solidly meet the challenge. To claim the rest of the article is a BLP violation that has to be deleted to the point where it reads simply "Carlo Mattongo is an Italian" is ludicrous - why not delete "Italian" as an unsourced cultural slight, and "is" as metaphysically uncertain? Back to the lead, it's normally perfectly fine to summarize a person's main claim to fame without a source because the lead is the summary of the article, not independent material. The article, which is sourced, establishes clearly that Mattongo's main claim to fame is that he is a holocaust denier. How else can one interpret an author whose main literary output is a series of books, and articles in holocaust revisionist journals, saying Auschwitz is a myth, nobody was gassed, the alleged "eyewitnesses" are liars, etc. But yes, an especially strong claim in the lead ought to be sourced even if it's clearly established in the article. If the article's inline attributions aren't enough, a few moments of googling instantly reveals a breathtaking array of holocaust denial in Mattongo's own words, on holocaust denial websites, and on websites devoted to combatting holocaust denial. Blanking these articles without bothering to spend a few minutes verifying them is pretty close to vandalism. 90-95% of the material that was blanked is sourced or simply not controversial - that he published a given book? That he lives near rome? That he knows Latin and Hebrew? I didn't write that in the first place. If I did I would have sourced them properly. But as an editor and reader of Wikipedia, it is not my job to single-handedly repair all the damage by chasing after every half-cocked WP:POINT someone is making by mindlessly deleting content. If someone wants to go on a rampage in a china shop, it's fair to bring up the commotion on a notice board rather than running ahead of the vandal clearing the shelves of dishes. Blanking entire articles is an extreme interpretation of BLP, and something that ought to be taken up at an administrative level before it blows up into a serious problem.Wikidemon (talk) 11:17, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Wikidemon, you obviously don't understand the BLP policy. BLP demands proper sourcing for claims - sourcing that all the articles he blanked lacked (and he didn't actually blank them). It is not good enough to say "the sources are there if you google". What you call "a bull in a china shop" is exactly what we want people to do. If you see unsourced or poorly sourced critical material, then remove it. All of it, and immediately. The onus is on those who want it replaced to do the googling, not the remover. Calling people doing what we ask them to do "almost vandals" is wrong, unhelpful, and verging on a personal attack. No WP:POINT has been made here, since wikipedia was not disrupted, but improved by the enforcement of one of our more important policies. That's the non-disruptive point that you are failing to get.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 11:28, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- I understand BLP policy just fine. In the past I contributed to making that policy. You seem to share the editor's interpretation of BLP, which is fine. Everyone has a right to their opinion. I brought the issue here for discussion. Back to the subject, the material is sourced in the article. That's the issue. 90-95% of what is removed is not unsourced and/or not controversial. And regarding the other 5-10% BLP is not about deleting all unsourced material, it is about deleting "contentious" unsourced material. The only place where you may have a point is the single claim, that the author is a holocaust denier - something best fixed by a five second google search, not disrupting an article. As for the rest, that author X published book Y is not contentious. Stubbifying an article to say "'''Carlo Mattogno''' (born in 1951 in [[Orvieto]], [[Italy]]) is an Italian {{DEFAULTSORT:Mattogno, Carlo}}" is pointy blanking. What about that are you not getting? We had the same fight a year ago over WP:NFCC and WP:TRIVIA. Running around the encyclopedia blanking things because you think you are doing the work of the Foundation is a big mistake and turns into huge Wikidrama - constant AN/I threads, de-sysops, arbitration cases, WR fodder. Best to keep cool and edit rationally. Wikidemon (talk) 11:46, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- So, source the material and replace it, if it is that easy. It only leads to "constant AN/I threads" because people start them. So, don't.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 11:52, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) That seems to contradict the lede of BLP; "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons — whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable — should be removed immediately ...". As in, it says "removed immediately", not "removed after doing a Google search to ascertain if it true or not". ~ User:Ameliorate! (with the !) (talk) 11:55, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Please direct the "source material" comment to the one who is blanking articles. My commenting on these articles does not mean I own them. Again, that's the same issue with NFCC and TRIVIA. I don't have to find sources for fifty thousand images or two hundred pop culture articles to point out that people are going about it the wrong way. Regarding the BLP preamble, the "should be removed immediately" is a bit of Jimbo's trademark hyperbole and not a realistic editing suggestion. But that's not the point. Again, most of the blanked material was sourced and not contentious.Wikidemon (talk) 12:08, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know about "most", but for Günter Deckert, which I've just expanded from sources, most of the material blanked in this edit was most certainly contentious (it relating to the subject's participation in the NPD) and unsourced (the article at the time citing no sources whatsoever). It still is unsourced. I've not been able to find any English language sources to support that content at all. (Any editors who are capable of reading German well are invited to flesh out the article with details of the subject's political career — provided that they cite good sources from the get-go.) Based upon what sources I've found upon actually going and looking for them, as a removal of unsourced controversial content under the BLP, it was quite proper. Uncle G (talk) 19:58, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- what do English language sources have to do with it? We do not require sources in English for BLP or anything else. If I were to remove all the material in BLPs cited by sources in languages I did not read, there would be little content left for some geographic areas. DGG (talk) 23:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Please read the part in parentheses that immediately followed that, again. I said nothing about requiring that sources be in English, and indeed invited those who were capable of reading German well, and who thus could distinguish good sources, to do so, and use them to expand the article. As a matter of fact, I even cited one German language source in the article. I simply didn't trust my ability to translate it enough to base BLP content on it. So it's in Further Reading.
However, I translated it well enough to know that it, too, does not document the subject's political career. My point stands: The controversial content that was removed was unsourced and still is unsourced. And until someone finds a good, reliable, independent German language source for it, it will remain unsourced. The removal was quite proper. Uncle G (talk) 11:53, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Please read the part in parentheses that immediately followed that, again. I said nothing about requiring that sources be in English, and indeed invited those who were capable of reading German well, and who thus could distinguish good sources, to do so, and use them to expand the article. As a matter of fact, I even cited one German language source in the article. I simply didn't trust my ability to translate it enough to base BLP content on it. So it's in Further Reading.
- what do English language sources have to do with it? We do not require sources in English for BLP or anything else. If I were to remove all the material in BLPs cited by sources in languages I did not read, there would be little content left for some geographic areas. DGG (talk) 23:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know about "most", but for Günter Deckert, which I've just expanded from sources, most of the material blanked in this edit was most certainly contentious (it relating to the subject's participation in the NPD) and unsourced (the article at the time citing no sources whatsoever). It still is unsourced. I've not been able to find any English language sources to support that content at all. (Any editors who are capable of reading German well are invited to flesh out the article with details of the subject's political career — provided that they cite good sources from the get-go.) Based upon what sources I've found upon actually going and looking for them, as a removal of unsourced controversial content under the BLP, it was quite proper. Uncle G (talk) 19:58, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Please direct the "source material" comment to the one who is blanking articles. My commenting on these articles does not mean I own them. Again, that's the same issue with NFCC and TRIVIA. I don't have to find sources for fifty thousand images or two hundred pop culture articles to point out that people are going about it the wrong way. Regarding the BLP preamble, the "should be removed immediately" is a bit of Jimbo's trademark hyperbole and not a realistic editing suggestion. But that's not the point. Again, most of the blanked material was sourced and not contentious.Wikidemon (talk) 12:08, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- I understand BLP policy just fine. In the past I contributed to making that policy. You seem to share the editor's interpretation of BLP, which is fine. Everyone has a right to their opinion. I brought the issue here for discussion. Back to the subject, the material is sourced in the article. That's the issue. 90-95% of what is removed is not unsourced and/or not controversial. And regarding the other 5-10% BLP is not about deleting all unsourced material, it is about deleting "contentious" unsourced material. The only place where you may have a point is the single claim, that the author is a holocaust denier - something best fixed by a five second google search, not disrupting an article. As for the rest, that author X published book Y is not contentious. Stubbifying an article to say "'''Carlo Mattogno''' (born in 1951 in [[Orvieto]], [[Italy]]) is an Italian {{DEFAULTSORT:Mattogno, Carlo}}" is pointy blanking. What about that are you not getting? We had the same fight a year ago over WP:NFCC and WP:TRIVIA. Running around the encyclopedia blanking things because you think you are doing the work of the Foundation is a big mistake and turns into huge Wikidrama - constant AN/I threads, de-sysops, arbitration cases, WR fodder. Best to keep cool and edit rationally. Wikidemon (talk) 11:46, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Wikidemon, you obviously don't understand the BLP policy. BLP demands proper sourcing for claims - sourcing that all the articles he blanked lacked (and he didn't actually blank them). It is not good enough to say "the sources are there if you google". What you call "a bull in a china shop" is exactly what we want people to do. If you see unsourced or poorly sourced critical material, then remove it. All of it, and immediately. The onus is on those who want it replaced to do the googling, not the remover. Calling people doing what we ask them to do "almost vandals" is wrong, unhelpful, and verging on a personal attack. No WP:POINT has been made here, since wikipedia was not disrupted, but improved by the enforcement of one of our more important policies. That's the non-disruptive point that you are failing to get.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 11:28, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Please don't get silly on the BLP kool-aid. I'm not stupid and no onus is on me. No, my argument is not to advocate that "don't deny the holocaust" is more important than BLP. If you read my post it is about the misuse of BLP for "hit-and-run" blanking, as Ricky81682 puts it. The editor I mentioned may be setting out on that course. Eleven articles today on the holocuast. Perhaps a hundred tomorrow on some other subject, perhaps baseball or automotive design? Better to deal with this before it becomes a blow-up. It goes to the "five seconds on google" comment. The only contentious claim in the article is the summary/lead statement that Carlo Mattongo is a holocaust denier. That's where the editor's WP:POINT is strongest but even there one can solidly meet the challenge. To claim the rest of the article is a BLP violation that has to be deleted to the point where it reads simply "Carlo Mattongo is an Italian" is ludicrous - why not delete "Italian" as an unsourced cultural slight, and "is" as metaphysically uncertain? Back to the lead, it's normally perfectly fine to summarize a person's main claim to fame without a source because the lead is the summary of the article, not independent material. The article, which is sourced, establishes clearly that Mattongo's main claim to fame is that he is a holocaust denier. How else can one interpret an author whose main literary output is a series of books, and articles in holocaust revisionist journals, saying Auschwitz is a myth, nobody was gassed, the alleged "eyewitnesses" are liars, etc. But yes, an especially strong claim in the lead ought to be sourced even if it's clearly established in the article. If the article's inline attributions aren't enough, a few moments of googling instantly reveals a breathtaking array of holocaust denial in Mattongo's own words, on holocaust denial websites, and on websites devoted to combatting holocaust denial. Blanking these articles without bothering to spend a few minutes verifying them is pretty close to vandalism. 90-95% of the material that was blanked is sourced or simply not controversial - that he published a given book? That he lives near rome? That he knows Latin and Hebrew? I didn't write that in the first place. If I did I would have sourced them properly. But as an editor and reader of Wikipedia, it is not my job to single-handedly repair all the damage by chasing after every half-cocked WP:POINT someone is making by mindlessly deleting content. If someone wants to go on a rampage in a china shop, it's fair to bring up the commotion on a notice board rather than running ahead of the vandal clearing the shelves of dishes. Blanking entire articles is an extreme interpretation of BLP, and something that ought to be taken up at an administrative level before it blows up into a serious problem.Wikidemon (talk) 11:17, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Ridiculous and offensive. Carlo Mattongo is obviously a significant holocaust denier. Please spend five seconds on google finding the sourcing that is in the blanked article. The point of BLP is to protect Wikipedia from legal liability and avoid undue harm to living individuals, not to facilitate holocaust denial (which is a much greater harm, incidentally). Wikidemon (talk) 10:30, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- I have to agree with Scott, especially on the Carlo Mattogno article. I don't think we should be condoning articles where the entire content is a bunch of descriptions about the person (especially such negative ones) based on the fact that another wiki wrote them a while ago. We should be having sources of our own. WP:BLP seems clear to me: "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons — whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable - should be removed.... "-- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:18, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, a barnstar for that. If you want to replace it, find some good secondary sourcing. That is exactly what BLP is for.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 10:12, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- A barnstar for this?[18] Please don't encourage it. BLP is meant to improve the encyclopedia, not destroy it. But again, most of the material deleted was of the form "X said Y in book Z".Wikidemon (talk) 10:10, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
If I can make a suggestion
The point is not to undermine BLP or pit it against anything else, merely to note what may be harm to the encyclopedia from its overzealous application. When deleting seeming BLP violations it is always best to be civil, precise, and helpful. One can pick any of the eleven cases in point but Carlo Mattogno has been the most discussed here. It would have been far better to replace Italian "holocaust denier" with Italian "author" or "writer about the holocaust" or something neutral, with an edit summary of "per BLP, a claim like this should be sourced." And it would have been better not to delete uncontroversial claims like that the author published a book, studied Latin, or lives near Rome. Beyond that, BLP permits deletion but doing the bare minimum of what policy permits does not make good editing. It is far better to improve than break weak material. Nearly everything deleted from the articles has a source, or is sourceable. Low effort article policing is fine on a case by case basis, but when it becomes a big campaign across many articles, it can be a big problem. A single editor on a policy enforcement roll can in ten minutes create a day's clean-up work for more careful editors, and that work often doesn't get done for weeks or months. Article cleanup is done with a broom and a mop, not a fire hose.Wikidemon (talk) 12:08, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Various points of varying length:
- Carlo Mattogno would have been a valid WP:CSD#G10 tagging.
- "Sources can be found" and arguments of this nature are over-simplistic, and ignore the responsibility this places on the editor doing the BLP clean up.
- Simply sourcing the contentious statements in a biography is utterly inadequate and completely misses the point - I have summarily deleted a number of well-sourced BLPs in which I had no reason to doubt the veracity of the statements made. Verifiability is a necessary but not a sufficient condition.
- The editor editing outside his/her area of expertise may legitimately feel very uncomfortable putting his/her name to any edit to a contentious BLP when they do not feel qualified to judge the neutrality of the article, regardless of what they can source. Yet, when the alternative of not editing the article would be clearly unacceptable, deletion or sub-stubbing are the only reasonable options.
- CIreland (talk) 12:35, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- G10?? This is an encyclopedia. Editors who want to help should probably concentrate their efforts where they know what they are doing. Not knowing what you are doing is fine on an article-by-article basis, but not when hacking away entire families of articles on important subjects. Wikidemon (talk) 12:45, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Every editor is asked to help the project by removing unsourced or poorly sourced negative material from BLPs. You don't have to understand the field, or be willing to contribute to the article. If you see material that's negative and the sourcing looks wobbly, remove it. Someone who knows something about it can replace it with sourcing later. However it is always better that we exclude such material until and unless someone is willing to sort it. The subjects of wikipedia's biographies are living people - and wikipedia can have real life damaging consequences where we get it wrong. Excluding all poorly sourced allegations is really the least we can do.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 13:12, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- I've got to agree with what ahs been said so far in this thread, BLP is a bright-line urgency focused policy. It requires immediate removal and places the bar for re-insertion on finding sources. It is not a "lets leave it in while we debate it" situation, it is a "remove it until we are sure it can be included" situation. MBisanz talk 15:01, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Every editor is asked to help the project by removing unsourced or poorly sourced negative material from BLPs. You don't have to understand the field, or be willing to contribute to the article. If you see material that's negative and the sourcing looks wobbly, remove it. Someone who knows something about it can replace it with sourcing later. However it is always better that we exclude such material until and unless someone is willing to sort it. The subjects of wikipedia's biographies are living people - and wikipedia can have real life damaging consequences where we get it wrong. Excluding all poorly sourced allegations is really the least we can do.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 13:12, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- G10?? This is an encyclopedia. Editors who want to help should probably concentrate their efforts where they know what they are doing. Not knowing what you are doing is fine on an article-by-article basis, but not when hacking away entire families of articles on important subjects. Wikidemon (talk) 12:45, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Disagree. BLP like everything else is subject to some degree of reasonable judgment, and if carried to the extremity of the letter becomes ridiculous. Not everything about a person is controversial. Using the excuse of BLP to remove noncontroversial material, or to blank or delete whole articles where lesser measures suffice, is abusing the policy. You do have to understand the field a little in most cases to know what material is controversial. Even in BLP, it is more helpful to source than to delete. The ease in finding adequate sources for the material under discussion illustrates the harmfulness of these blankings. Not every BLP case is an emergency--we have a noticeboard for the purpose of discussing them and asking for sources. The response should be proportionate to the possible harmfulness. BLP if over-interpreted will be discredited. The actions here were, in my opinion, a pretty remarkable over-interpretation. DGG (talk) 00:17, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- How on earth is it harmful to remove something for a bit when it can be replaced with a source as soon as anyone is ready to do it? Who is harmed if we've got a bit less info on a neo-nazi for a bit? "Harm" is a really easy word to bandy about, but ultimately the "harm" of some unsourced and potentially unreliable information missing for a bit (and still in the edit history) is no harm at all, compared to some untruth remaining because we relaxed our guard. Yes, source when you can, yes discuss, but in the meantime if the information is likely to be damaging if untrue (and associating people with far-right organisations and holocaust denial will be) then take it out. If it is true and sourcable then "eventually" it will be restored or replaced. Little, or no, real harm is caused by that, plenty potentially by the opposite.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 00:25, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) English language sources have a good deal to do with it. Wikipedia has no fact-checking mechanism. If someone posts something it is published globally. Our only fact-checking mechanism is that someone says "hm, I'm not sure about that", so they click on the source that's referenced at the end of the statement and say "oh, it's fine - that's a good source and it clearly supports the claim" or "nope, not in the source, or not a good source, take it out". Now, with BLPs and negative claims we need brilliant sourcing, so that any bad stuff has a hope of identified. Foreign language sources can be fine - but are not going to be adequate to support strongly negative BLP claims, simply because there's a lesser chance of bad stuff being spotted - also if there are no english language sources claiming that Joe is a paedophile, then we really need to ask ourself whether the claim is really noteworthy at all. If we allow people to insert "Joe was convicted of paedophilia" and reference some Chinese source, then any hope of quality control just left the building.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 23:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- But wouldn't that also be true for print sources? You can't just check those, either, especially if you're British and want to check an American print source (or vice versa). --Conti|✉ 00:00, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Unfortunately yes. Any source that is not online, or otherwise readily available, ultimately leaves us having to trust the editor who says "This books states he's a pedophile". The best conditions are where we can cite a printed source and also an online one that states "this is what this book says". Think of it this way, if you had a wikibio, would you want me to be able to alleged that you'd murdered your mother and put a citation to some obscure book, and your only chance of it being removed was if someone a) got suspicious b) checked the book at some well-stocked university library?--Scott MacDonald (talk) 00:17, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Several hoax articles have come up at AFD where the creators have tried to be clever and cited books. The experience of AFD is that it actually makes it a lot easier to check. False citations work heavily against the hoaxer, the malicious editor, and the vandal. Wikipedia editors are far from being incapable of checking books. Uncle G (talk) 11:53, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Unfortunately yes. Any source that is not online, or otherwise readily available, ultimately leaves us having to trust the editor who says "This books states he's a pedophile". The best conditions are where we can cite a printed source and also an online one that states "this is what this book says". Think of it this way, if you had a wikibio, would you want me to be able to alleged that you'd murdered your mother and put a citation to some obscure book, and your only chance of it being removed was if someone a) got suspicious b) checked the book at some well-stocked university library?--Scott MacDonald (talk) 00:17, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Absolutely. We should not succumb to "FUTON bias", many editors are at universities with extensive libraries. I recall the case of Tuatafa Hori (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) here, where the hoaxer cited a book reference that was rapidly proven to be bogus. Guy (Help!) 11:48, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- I think Scott is totally wrong here. The English Wikipedia fortunately has editors who can handle essentially every language in which sources are likely to exist--there are at least a hundred active editors, for example, who can read German; any of them can be consulted. we can further assume the deWP to have taken some care in its judgements, though we are not bound by them. I would require pretty strong evidence that a German source they accept is not acceptable here. We are not the encyclopedia of the online world only. Choosing an example of "pedophile" is a version of Godwin's fallacy. DGG (talk) 00:24, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- RMHED making a point? That's never happened. There's a difference between questioning the reliability of a source or questioning the accuracy of an article, and blanking the page. If they've published a book about their positions, it isn't a BLP violation to state those positions. If they didn't want those positions to be known, they probably wouldn't have published the book. Erik the Red 2 ~~~~ 00:19, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
If someone removes unsourced material from any article on the basis that it is unsourced the easiest thing to do is find a source and add it back in, if a source can't be found then it's questionable whether the material should be included in the first place. WP:BLP and WP:V make it pretty clear that if it would take a ten second Google search to find a source, do that search don't just put the material back in on the basis that such a search would be possible. The burden of evidence falls on those wishing to include material that has been challenged - as the material has been in this case. Guest9999 (talk) 10:48, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
This is really strange
What is this IP doing: [19]? Admiral Norton (talk) 12:46, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Reasonable editing? WilyD 12:49, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- A good job? Seriously, all they have done is revert a bunch of vandalism. Isn't it generally a Good Thing TM for people to remove vandalism when they find it? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:52, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- The edits are helpful, though how an IP is using Huggle is odd. Wizardman 13:00, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Behold the pros and cons of open source software . Awesome though. — CharlotteWebb 13:02, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict) It's not hard to modify the source for Huggle (and AWB for that matter) to not check for logged in status or the existence of the huggle.css page but I always thought Huggle used rollback to revert the edits? Now I guess not. ~ User:Ameliorate! (with the !) (talk) 13:04, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- The main point is that, while this use of huggle may be slightly sketchy, the IP is doing good work, so I see no impending doom. If he were using Huggle in some ultimately destructive way, that would be one thing, but really, where there is no harm to the encyclopedia, there is no foul... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:05, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- I see no point in punishing this user for using Huggle in a useful way, but the security should really be upped. Admiral Norton (talk) 13:55, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- The main point is that, while this use of huggle may be slightly sketchy, the IP is doing good work, so I see no impending doom. If he were using Huggle in some ultimately destructive way, that would be one thing, but really, where there is no harm to the encyclopedia, there is no foul... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:05, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
I (cynically) suspect that most of the moral panic is in the order of "they shouldn't be doing this because we have no way to take away their rollback when they abuse it". Sure we do, just block the son of a bitch if they don't knock it off. Let's remember this thread next time somebody yells "OMG plz subtract their user-rights" every time there is a complaint about a logged-in user using huggle/twinkle/fickle/boggle/smuggle/wrinkle/flügel/scroogle/wriggle/burgle/shruggle/bugle/sniggle/fondle/juggle/gaggle/AWB/whatever abusively. — CharlotteWebb 13:19, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- You mis-spelt Buggle SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 14:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yep. Edits speak louder than. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:28, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah it is odd seeing an IP REMOVING vandalism, rather that causing it. I applaud their efforts, we need a lot more users like this doing this kind of work. Wildthing61476 (talk) 13:31, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Actually it's quite common to see a passing-by IP removing vandalism. Many of them do not know how to find the undo button, though, and remove only part of the sillyness. – Sadalmelik ☎ 13:47, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah it is odd seeing an IP REMOVING vandalism, rather that causing it. I applaud their efforts, we need a lot more users like this doing this kind of work. Wildthing61476 (talk) 13:31, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yep. Edits speak louder than. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:28, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
This is just someone who was using huggle, got logged out and didn't notice. It's happened to me once --Chris 13:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Does that still happen with the current versions of Huggle? I think rollback is now required for reverting -- it's a different link from undo/normal editing, and I'm not sure if there is a fallback mechanism anymore. Of course the IP could have been using an older version of Huggle. – Sadalmelik ☎ 13:47, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Only to remind, almost half the IP edits I see on my watchlist are helpful, often very much so. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:44, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with that entirely though it's very easy to get into a "IP=vandal" mindset (I know I do sometimes). --ROGER DAVIES talk 14:58, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Given that things have changed a lot since 2006, people have retired, harassers have gotten more diligent, etc, I'm planning to run a roll call of Wikipedia:Admins willing to make difficult blocks to ask the admins listed if they would re-add themselves if they want to remain on the list. Any objections? MBisanz talk 16:26, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- If you're doing it by email, mine is flaky at the moment; so I'll say here that my "Aye" to this category is still the same. Black Kite 18:17, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Usertalk would probably be better, actually - you'd get a better idea of who's active. Black Kite 18:21, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- You could just remove any admin who is on the inactive admins list, and leave them a note telling them so. -- How do you turn this on (talk) 18:23, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- This is a good idea. I'd advise sending the messages to the user_talk page of the current category members, rather than via email; it's ultimately your choice, however. Anthøny (talk) 19:17, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- I'm still willing. Bearian (talk) 19:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Since the general purpose of this list is to provide a list of admins who can be contacted privately about touchy matters, I think it would be better to make this contact via email. That way, you can not only see who's active, but who actually checks their email often enough to be useful for this purpose. If they get removed from the list for failing to respond, then a talk page note would be in order, I think. Hersfold (t/a/c) 00:48, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- I'm still willing. Bearian (talk) 19:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
This Arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is viewable through the above link.
Jossi and MZMcBride are both separately admonished for their conduct in this matter—the Sarah Palin wheel war—and are warned that any future, similar actions are likely to lead to the suspension or revocation of their administrator privileges.
The community is strongly urged to continue ongoing discussions at Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons regarding how the BLP policy and its enforcement can be further improved.
Additionally, all parties to this case are instructed to review carefully the principles and findings of fact which were also passed in this decision (click to read), and to adjust their conduct and future behaviour accordingly.
For the Arbitration Committee, Anthøny (talk) 19:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Thst's good reading, particularly for newer admins. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 19:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
IAR now has rules. ~ User:Ameliorate! (with the !) (talk) 03:17, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- IAR always had a rule — that part about improving the encyclopedia. Stifle (talk) 11:34, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Cleanup Image History Help
Would somebody with admin rights please help me clean up the older versions for the following images?
w:Image:Beatles Blackbird.jpg
w:Image:Martha My Dear.jpg
w:Image:Let It Be.jpg
What I want is to delete older versions of the images pointed out above , leaving only the current one standing. Is this possible? Administrators have an option visible for each image in the history of the uploads, that allows them to delete older versions in the history record, that appears at the end of the page, containing the current image. Thank You.Fefogomez (talk) 20:37, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- The process is slightly different (there isn't a way to selectively delete, just selectively restore), but it can be done. I've got no problem doing it for you, but I'd like to know why first. Cheers. lifebaka++ 21:46, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Great! There are two main reasons: 1- The process of arriving to the most accurate scorelet left a trail of slightly different versions, that may rest credibility to the final 'product'. 2- It hurts the presentation of the images' page by lending itself to confusion and being a factor of distraction to the careful viewer.
Sockpuppet case
I started up a sockpuppet case on the 9th of October but there has been no movement so far. Is there simply an extended backlog of sockpuppet cases? Mrshaba (talk) 22:44, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Part of the problem could be that you've made it more work than it ought to be by incorrectly formatting the user names and diffs, so that they can't be clicked on. You might consider fixing your report. Looie496 (talk) 23:01, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- There are two other problems with this:
- You did not transclude it to Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets
- There are other cases filed before yours still not finished. Longer harder cases take longer. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:02, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Repeated Vandalism
In regards to a certain IP user, see: User_talk:168.169.215.149. there has been vandalism going on every few months for years now. This user has apparently been warned repeatedly and even blocked once, but I just reverted vandalism from them on the Twitches Too article. Just thought I'd bring this to someone's attention. Maybe another, permanent block is in order? TheScrappedPrincess (talk) 01:37, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- It's not. -Jéské Couriano (v^_^v) 01:48, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed, it's not. Additionally, it's quite likely that the IP has changed over the past months, and it's not the same person. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:49, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Why would you say that? And I've heard of quite a few people having their IPs blocked permanently, so how can it not be allowed? And for reference, most of these people never got any other blocks. TheScrappedPrincess (talk) 01:54, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Really? The only time IP's are indef blocked is when we're absolutely-positively sure that when we indef the IP, we don't block someone else who picks up the IP when they try to edit. Erik the Red 2 ~~~~ 02:06, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- See WP:IP. IPs can change hands, and when they're indef'd they generally get unblocked again because it's usually excessive and affects good editors. This IP is a school and so is multiple users, it hasn't been warned for six months, so it's likely no user has ever seen any warnings, and the IP made less than 50 edits in total in the last two years, which is fairly low. There's still a chance that someday someone will use it constructively. -- zzuuzz (talk) 02:11, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
User:TheScrappedPrincess has been blocked indefinitely, as a sockpuppet of User:Fragments of Jade SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 21:31, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- I've seen school IPs indef blocked before (such as one old Lee County Public Schools IP), so we apparently will indef block even a shared IP as a last resort, but that is a last resort in the event that nothing else solves the problem. This IP doesn't even appear to be eligible for WP:ABUSE, which will be considered before an indef block. GO-PCHS-NJROTC (Messages) 01:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Help to undo my stupidity
I have messed up a move - Rhinemaidens (Wagner) was supposed to be moved to Rhinemaidens and the two edit histories merged. I have somehow screwed this up - not enough sleep and/or practice. Could someone please fix my mess? Sorry and thanks in advance, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:24, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
PS See this and this too. Sorry again Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:24, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Fixed, I believe - check and see if that's what was intended. You needed to revert the "move" edit at the destination page to complete the merge process. CIreland (talk) 02:26, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Category deletion discussion needs wider input
Could people here please have a look at this category deletion discussion? I think such a big change needs wide input. I'll leave a note there saying that I lest a note here. If people here think it needs to be widely advertised, could they suggest places to mention it and what level of advertising of the discussion is acceptable? Carcharoth (talk) 07:26, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks, Carcharoth. I was thinking of dropping a note at the Wikiproject Biography as well, and on the BLP noticeboard, as two places with obviously interested parties. I haven't done this yet though... Fram (talk) 07:48, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
AIV backlogged, vandalism rampant
What can I say, Clue Bot down, no huggler's online, and those reporting to AIV continue to vandalize. Please can I get some help --Flewis(talk) 09:00, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Empty, as of 12 minutes later. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ will never be anybody's hero now 09:13, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Fan reaction and glitch information?
I asked about this elsewhere, but someone spammed it and it never got answered. A DS remake of a generally unknown game was released and revealed to have glitches and extra content that had been promised removed. This upset many of the fans, including myself. Shortly after joining Wikipedia, I read on the official forum for the company that released the game that someone was messing around with the page for this game. Checking it out, I saw that information about the glitches and the fan-reaction to them and the removed content was repeatedly being removed by two editors. The information was cited, and as a player and frequenter of the official forum, I knew it to be true as well. I re-added the information, editing it a bit, and even went as far as to add and extra reference-containing specific information of the glitches, removed content, and the fan reaction. However, those two editors removed it repeatedly, claiming they thought that the fan opinion was not notable. I disagree, as almost every game/movie/tv show article on here has a section for "Reception" and even seperate sections for "Fan-reaction". They also remove the specific information about the glitches. While I could understand if the fan-opinion was biased, offensive, or unreferenced, it is none of these things. That's why I wanted to get some other opinions. Is fan-opinion acceptable/notable in articles? I don't mean my opinion or anyone's specific opinion, but a general statement, such as "fans of the original game are displeased with this remake, due to...". Thoughts? TheScrappedPrincess (talk) 11:21, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- What is the article in question? Stifle (talk) 11:33, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- That would be Rhapsody: A Musical Adventure. Erigu (talk) 11:34, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Neither of your sources are what we'd generally think of as reliable - they're effectively blog posts. Can you source these statements to something reliable (for instance, the website of a print magazine)? ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ will never be anybody's hero now 11:37, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
RPGFan is not a good source? They are a very reliable RPG website and even emailed the creators of the game personally. That is how they were ablt to post that article. It's unlikely you'll find places other than that and forums/blogs expressing the fan's reactions or glitches. Even magazine articles are arguably just blogs in the end. It's really impossible to deny any of the stuff printed in the RPGFan article. The only way to get things confirmed is to talk directly to the creators, which RPGFan has done. And the only way to find glitches is to play the game, like that blogger has done. How many companies officially announce the glitches they left in the game? It just doesn't happen. And the fan-reaction is mentioned in that article, not to mention visible anywhere they are talking about the game. TheScrappedPrincess (talk) 11:48, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- I have to say I kinda agree with the latest sockpuppet of Fragments of Jade, here... For some relatively obscure games, I don't think you can expect much information in print magazines and such. Besides, RPGFan has been around for a while (ten years?).
- Other than that, like I explained in my comments, I really don't think such specific details about the glitches have their place in the article. Same thing about the fan reaction. Advertised content is missing and some glitches were found? Of course fans are disappointed/angry/upset. That's a bit like talking about some celebrity's death and adding the sentence "some were saddened". Erigu (talk) 12:00, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd also like to point out that every single reference on that page is a "blog" or a site like RPGFan. Are you telling me I should delete everything they're references for as a result? The article is going to be very empty if that is done. A lot of articles would be if such references were considered not good enough. I mentioned this whole problem in my post over in the New Users section. This site is against original research, but in the end, that's mostly what it's made up of. Blogs, reviews, sites...almost always made up of original research. You think any company is going to officially release a statement giving away their movie's entire plot? No. A person has to watch so they can add it here. But then, because there's not reference, it could just be deleted if someone wanted to start trouble. And that's really all that's going on here. It's such a ridiculous thing to start a war over, but for some reason, the edit just won't be left alone. And I believe Erigu's uncalled for and false insult just proved my point. The edit is only being undone to pick a fight. TheScrappedPrincess (talk) 12:03, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- You're missing my point here, TSP/FoJ: the burden of proof lies upon the person adding the material. If you can add the material with a reliable source as defined by Wikipedia, then people really can't argue with the inclusion. If all you've got is blog posts, the chances are it will be challenged and removed until sourced reliably. I hear what you are saying about the other sources, but just because WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, that's not a reason to downgrade Wikipedia standards when the information you're providing isn't sourced reliably. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ will never be anybody's hero now 12:07, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Your little insult was not appreciated, and it was false. Please to not make such accusations just because you are being disagreed with. And there's nothing wrong with that proof. RPGFan is a respected site, they communicate with and relay information from numerous game developers, and their information comes from NISA itself. Hundreds of blogs and forum posts all back up the glitches, NISA has officially stated in their email to RPGFan and on their forums that the content was removed, and the fan-reaction is in that same RPGFan article and visible everywhere you look. The whole Rhapsody article will need to be deleted if you try and say those sources aren't reliable. RPGDreamer is a site just like RPGFan, but nowhere near as good. It's doubtful anything in the article can be backed up with an "acceptable resource". Picking fights just for the sake of fighting is lame. TheScrappedPrincess (talk) 12:13, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Then stop. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ will never be anybody's hero now 12:15, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- I recognize this user as being indistinguishably similar to User:Fragments of Jade and her army of sockpuppets. While we're always interested in making our articles about video games better, this particular editor was blocked for editing disruptively, for edit-warring, refusing to collaborate, and making personal attacks, so I've taken the liberty of blocking her again. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 16:26, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Deleted pages has been created after deletion discussion
Please read Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/James_McKenty_and_the_Spades, Because I don't know your rules, I don't know, must it first to discuss if will create same article again or what.--Musamies (talk) 14:18, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Deleted per G4 and salted. Nancy talk 14:28, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Same for the other two. - auburnpilot talk 14:30, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- .... and to answer your question Musamies, no it is not necessary to have a discussion before creating the article so long as the new article addresses the concerns raised in the deletion discussion, otherwise, if the recreation is substantially the same as the deleted copy then it qualifies for speedy deletion. Nancy talk 14:34, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Same for the other two. - auburnpilot talk 14:30, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
And to spread some more news, there is now a speedy deletion criterion A9 according to which other albums of the deleted band that do not assert any importance such as Restless Soul (album) can be deleted speedily delted as well.--Tikiwont (talk) 14:41, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Problems with images
It seems to me that the instructions on the page where you upload images are not very user friendly. I've been working with administrator Stifle, who has been very helpful, but I'm sure that I'm not the only person having trouble. Information about uploading images should not be spread out over four or five pages. For example, I'm told that I should not save the image as a jpg, but that info is not on the save image page. I'm told that the image must be low resolution, but not what low resolution. Is 50 dpi acceptable? How about 25 dpi? I'm told by ww2censor that a prose rationale is no longer acceptable, that I must use a template, but that template is on yet another page. Also, once I cut and paste the template, it is not clear where the template goes on the image page. I've had more problems, but you get the idea. The image in question is Image:Reflection in a Pool by Walter Anderson.jpg but the problems are general, and would apply to almost any uploaded image. Uploaded images improve the appearance of Wikipedia. The process should be streamlined. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:26, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- It's sort-of semi-intentional that non-free image uploads are made difficult: their use is a copyright infringement, relying on a bit of case law to let us use, infrequently, some images. Before we made this harder (I date from before we really even had rules about this much at all) it was a free-for-all, with high-resolution images of copyright works appearing on user pages and multiple times across different articles. Slowly but surely we've tightened up on this, in the face of very agressive opposition from many in the community. The complexity you've found lies in many ways on how we've made these changes slowly and carefully. You might like to poke around at Wikipedia:WikiProject Fair use to see if anyone agrees about streamlining the process. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 14:41, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- The use of non-free images is most decidely not "copyright enfringement" - if it were, it wouldn't be legal. And it is legal in the U.S. because of the concept of fair use, which is not some kind of loophole or a "bit of case law", but a longstanding concept with many years of case law and precedent behind it, stemming, ultimately, from the Supreme Court. You may not like it, possibly you are in favor of Wikipedia taking a hard line and not allowing any fair-use images, (if so, neither consensus nor policy is with you) but please don't misprepresent the facts.
Also, if you are saying that the poor design of the upload area in regard to non-free images is intentional in order to confuse people into not uploading them, that is an exceedingly silly concept. If people want to upload, people are going to upload, no matter how badly they're jerkled around when they try to do so, so all that is being done is guaranteeing that people will essentially ignore all that endless boilerplate and upload images that may be non-compliant with policy, making more work for everyone when they have to be deleted or re-edited to come into compliance. What's needed is not unnecessary complexity, but a clear and straight forward non-confrontational statement of policy and helpful shortcuts to guarantee compliance. Unfortunately, because a significant percentage of image workers seem to harbor a deep animosity toward the concept of fair use, as well as holding the idea that only they can interpret image policy because only they understand it correctly, that seems unlikely to happen anytime soon. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 05:27, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- The use of non-free images is most decidely not "copyright enfringement" - if it were, it wouldn't be legal. And it is legal in the U.S. because of the concept of fair use, which is not some kind of loophole or a "bit of case law", but a longstanding concept with many years of case law and precedent behind it, stemming, ultimately, from the Supreme Court. You may not like it, possibly you are in favor of Wikipedia taking a hard line and not allowing any fair-use images, (if so, neither consensus nor policy is with you) but please don't misprepresent the facts.
- The vast majority of new image uploads are incorrect, per Wikipedia policy. Regardless of what individuals think about US copyright law, Wikipedia policy is stricter than that. If you want to call for an expansion of fair-use usage on Wikipedia, that's a separate point, but making it easier to upload images has always resulted in more and more problematic images that are later deleted. Calling everyone who disagrees with you and would rather have a "free-licensed" encyclopedia having "deep animosity" towards fair use isn't very productive. I'd rather encourage the use of free licenses and encouraging fair use tends to distract from that. Also, I think that we require autoconfirmation before allowing uploads. There is really no good reason for a new user to be making uploads for their first edits. So, is there a place Rick where you are discussing the image upload process as a whole? It might be better to centralize. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:34, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Murder of Thomas and Jackie Hawks
This is advance notice to avoid a wheel war. On BLP1E grounds, I'm about to take on these two and speedily merge and refactor them into an article about the crime at Murder of Thomas and Jackie Hawks. I'm going to leave the first AFD discussion open, to discuss the refactored article, and close the second. Please note that these two have hit the headlines today, hence the sudden surge of interest. I expect that the resultant redirects will need protection for a while, as no doubt someone will edit war over them. Your coöperation would be appreciated. Uncle G (talk) 15:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
jOG - motion sensing controller
Hi I wanted to write an article about jOG but every time I do it gets deleted. could someone help me?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaranikane (talk • contribs) 15:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Just a note to remark that Slash2k01 (talk · contribs) has also tried adding an article on this product. --CalendarWatcher (talk) 06:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm not going to say anything, but I reckon this user, their contributions and their interactions with me this evening (check my talkpage history) need some looking into. Thanks. ╟─Treasury§Tag►contribs─╢ 20:36, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Well, you did say something just by posting here. Nevertheless, it appears we have a warrior for The TruthTM when it comes to Judaism. As an atheist, I proudly know fuck all about the subject, but I've reverted his unreverted contributions because they're simply not encyclopedic, rely on interpreting a single source and just read like bollocks. He may be right, or not, but such debate needs to take place away from Wikipedia and be reported here, rather than happening here and being reported elsewhere. I'll mention this to him. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 20:48, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- I ran into him at Aaron - I haven't the foggiest idea why he is adding large chunks of text as he has there. He is editing a lot of articles though and I think someone who does have a less foggy idea needs to take a look. Doug Weller (talk) 20:57, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks you for all the attention. It could be tough dealing with a sadducee after 2000 years. Lets all just get along, eh. Youknowbest (talk) 21:24, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, it was this type of thing I was talking about on your talk page. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 21:28, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- His message on my text page says, among other things, "For the site to ramble on without these specific commandments shown, sis somewhat pointless" -? Doug Weller (talk) 21:31, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- You're absolutely right. One should not defend ones self, despite vicious attacks. PS. I sent a note to Doug and hopefully he will respond. In response to Redvers: We are talking facts after all; but if one doen’t believe in the 'bible' in question or the people involved in the bible, that is another issue entirely. My quotes are directly from the 5 Books of Moses. Like it or not, how it is packaged on your site may be relevant, but the word are exact and are more important that some commentary about them. IMO —Preceding unsigned comment added by Youknowbest (talk • contribs) 21:39, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Is there a request for a specific administrator action (blocking, protecting, deleting) anywhere in here, or should this content dispute be carried on elsewhere? Certainly, we don't need to use our magical admin powers to decide whose version of these articles is more compliant with Wikipedia policy, we have dispute resolution for that! --Jayron32.talk.contribs 21:45, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Looks like no, there isn't. If users would like to continue whatever's going on here, dispute resolution and user talk pages are always open. Cheers, everyone. lifebaka++ 00:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Is there a request for a specific administrator action (blocking, protecting, deleting) anywhere in here, or should this content dispute be carried on elsewhere? Certainly, we don't need to use our magical admin powers to decide whose version of these articles is more compliant with Wikipedia policy, we have dispute resolution for that! --Jayron32.talk.contribs 21:45, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Ah ha
Youknowbest (talk) 21:57, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
According to wiki: 'Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care'[[20]] 'Primary sources are sources very close to the origin of a particular topic or event. An eyewitness account of a traffic accident written or narrated by the eyewitness is an example of a primary source.'
Wouldn't you agree that the 5 Books for Moses Sefer Torah be just that, a 'Primary Source'? Youknowbest (talk) 22:19, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Nay! I'm an atheist. PS- use whatever sources you wish; cheers. GoodDay (talk) 22:20, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
GoodDay mate. Have a look at the section deuteronomy. Here is a perfect example of the contributer re-writing their own version of the book. How can that be more accurate the the original? You can't make this stuff up! Regardless IMO wiki is a good source but users should be allowed to post FACTS and that is what I try to do. If a sentence is quoted from the bible and you want to interpret it one way or another, that is your choice, but please place the orginal for all to see it. I rest my case. If you like I will change my name to PRIMARY_SOURCE in the hopes for a higher acceptance rate. I am so unpopular ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Youknowbest (talk • contribs) 22:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not disputing you, YKB. Feel free to do as you wish. GoodDay (talk) 22:48, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
And I have no idea who the author of the athiest script is; it might not be available, (maybe hidden in a Barnes and Noble cellar) but if it is, one should be able to quote directly from the athiest script and post it on the athiest page. Maybe you can write the bible for athiests and it will be too a PRIMARY SOURCE. Let me know if you need help. Then all future athiests can find their roots at the wiki athiest web.Youknowbest (talk) 22:59, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to express some discomfort here. Youknowbest is an account that has existed for three days and made about 200 edits in that time, adding a large mass of text with sophisticated formatting. It is clear to me, even knowing little about the topic, that many of these edits will be seen as disruptive once people have time to review them. Looie496 (talk) 03:04, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- I'm with Looie496 and Redvers here. This is not just a content discussion. Doug Weller (talk) 08:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
The above issue appears to be 'resolved' but nobody has taken any action other than criticize one who has spent many hours trying to contribute to a website viewed internationally with some level of respect. I don’t plan on being leader of your group, or even popular, but I do propose to level the clear bias towards Rabbinical Judaism on this site. I have been attacked, called names, my comments deleted without explanation like some kind of sick soap opera. Please leave me alone if you cannot be cordial in your comments. I too can be boorish, delete and manipulate, but I choose not to. You manly men and pretty girls have a great day! Oh and my source of information, a PRIMARY SOURCE and legal to use in WIKI is the Sefer Torah located at [Deuteronomy 12:19]: "Take heed to thyself that thou forsake not the Levite as long as thou livest upon thy land." Youknowbest (talk) 12:16, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- I'm really not sure how this can be explained any more simply: if you add material where you have come to a conclusion, it will be removed. You need to quote others who are saying this. You may not like these rules, but they are indeed the rules. You're not being attacked or called names; and no one on this page cares about how popular or not you are or wish to be. But one fact remains: don't add material where you have come to a conclusion unless you can quote others that have come to the same conclusion. Are we there yet? ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 12:27, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- You could be but lets talk facts, kind fellow. Take a look see at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuteronomy and cast your eyes down to 'Second sermon' and what do you see? You see a CONTRIBUTORS opinion on the writings of the sefer torah. Then be so kind to look farther down to the section named 'Christianity' and what do you see? You see a direct QUOTE made form the bible.
So lets be reasonable. If I am the only one being denied making PRIMARY SOURCE quotes, what of the rest of wiki? Is there a special law just for me? Yes we could be close, but please understand my frustration in many hours lost of good work with honest intentions. Youknowbest (talk) 12:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- I APPOLOGIZE***
The subject matter of Rabbinical Judaism may be beyond the understanding of many contributors, so for the sake of trying to conclude, I offer you another example:
On wiki [21]: Orthodox Judaism teaches that sodomy is homosexual anal sex, and is a sin and toevah (abomination), based on the Bible passages Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13; the injunction "Do not lie with a man the lyings of a woman; it is abhorrent." THIS IS A QUOTE FROM A DIRECT SOURCE
But it isn't quite right. It should read: 'Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination.'[22]
So you see many quotes from the bible are made without quoting a source because it is meant to mislead the public. By the way, under [23] teh word 'abomination' doesn't appear even once even though the direct quote is: 'And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.'[24]
Yes maybe I get it now, I see your point, in a nut shell, the skinny, the nuts and bolts of it. Youknowbest (talk) 13:59, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, does this come with a point? ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 14:01, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- (ec) Disregarding the absurd comment below, I think the threat of "Keep watching," combined with the hassle I'm getting on my talkpage and the hassle he's giving other completely random editors (Andrevan, Dougwellre, Lifebaka etc.) on theirs merits some admin intervention. ╟─Treasury§Tag►contribs─╢ 14:09, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry you don't get it, I tried but failed, I bent over backwards to please, but there was for me no cigar, but I do get it. Keep watching because YOUKNOWBEST. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Youknowbest (talk • contribs)
- The point seems to be that he thinks he knows what the only TRUE translation is, and my fear is that he is trying to impose it on Wikipedia. I've just looked up the wording he doesn't like, and found it being used on the website of The Rabbinical Assembly, the international association of Conservative rabbis "Do+not+lie+with+a+man+the+lyings+of+a+woman;+it+is+abhorrent"&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=uk - pdf itself is here [25]. He claims the version used by the Rabinnical Assembly is meant to mislead the public, if I understand him correctly. Doug Weller (talk) 14:13, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
...Tag, Red and Doug. Are you one in the same people? If you make a quote, you should supply the source. No? Do you see the source you quoted on wiki? No you had to dig for it. I have posted quotes and reliable sources and you have objected. Fine and Tag, that was no threat. Duh, if there was a consequence stated after the action it could have been determined to be one. But so is "If you don't cover your mouth when you sneeze you could infect people" be considered a threat too. Get a freekin life. Oh, and RED, would you like me to post the names that TAG so eliquently stated on wiki so you can then say that I broke one of wikis cardinal sins. Oh boy and abomination, death befalls me. Give me a break...Youknowbest (talk) 14:22, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- (ec)names that TAG so eliquently stated on wiki - what does that mean? I don't understand a word... Anyway, I propose that unless YouK drops this campaign of hassle, POV-warring and general disruption he is blocked for 36 hours. ╟─Treasury§Tag►contribs─╢ 14:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- IMHO, all religions are meant to mislead the public. GoodDay (talk) 14:24, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- TAG, you're such a bully. Just stick to the subject and answer the questions. It shouldn't be too difficult. I hate to tell you other than members throwing legal wiki humbo jumbo at me, you still haven't addresses the many, many inconsistencies in your one sided message. Would you prefer a different language?
And why do you keep deleting my answer to RED's question and that is:
MISLEADING THE PUBLIC!!
Please don't be a pain and try to force the issue. Just leave it up like good fellas.
Youknowbest (talk) 14:33, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- You are, or Wikipedia is? I ask purely for information, as you have, at last count, at least 4 editors here completely baffled as to what the problem is. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan
- :-) I really would like to know if I am right in thinking that Youknowbest is claiming that his translation is the only correct translation and that the translation used by the Rabinnical Assembly is wrong and should not be used. Doug Weller (talk) 14:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, no need, I am right, he's said as much on his talk page [26]. That's why he's editing articles saying the translations in them are wrong and adding his. I think this discussion is at the right place. Doug Weller (talk) 14:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- :-) I really would like to know if I am right in thinking that Youknowbest is claiming that his translation is the only correct translation and that the translation used by the Rabinnical Assembly is wrong and should not be used. Doug Weller (talk) 14:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- DOUG, its not that they are wrong, they haven't made a clear destinction as to which belief of Jew it comes from. That would be like saying the New Testament is 'wrong'. If you say the JEWISH BIBLE, then according which group of Jews is it the JEWISH BIBLE, because your version isn't the same as mine, but we can both make our references, right? I don't see the problem other that the reluctance to accept another point of view, in this case mine, the sadducee view, which never died, just got stored away. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Youknowbest (talk • contribs) 15:24, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- I have never stated that my opinion is right and you maye be wrong. That is a lie. But I have made direct comments from articles in the bible offer in a point of view with accurate references.
Doug; A Rabbinical Judaism has a different take on on religion versus a sadducee versus a conservative Jew versus a Messianic Jew versus Reformed. All could be quoted BUT all should have accurate references. My references for Aaron were that of the 5 books of Moses, which for most Jews, I haven't found one that doesn't, believe IS THE WORD OF GOD. They believe it is the truth and the words can be displayed as such and if they have adifferent version they can display that too but it shoudl be source as you did with A conservative WEBSITE AND NOT A Rabbinical JudaismWEBSITE. There is a clear difference here. Does NOT think that his translation is the only 'true' translation - What an assumption to make! Youknowbest (talk) 15:05, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- It is really a bad idea to call other editors liars. That was my interpretation of what you wrote -- "then the 'other' writings of Rabbinical Judaism are all hipocracy and against the word of God" and of course you also wrote " Then they had polpe like rambam agreeing with the talmud and so on another layer of lies was added." You also have just said that a Rabbinical Judaism website should not be used as a source, and I can't see why under our policies and guidelines it shouldn't be. Anyway, you now seem to be stating that you are not claiming that the translation you prefer is the true translation, which is good even if it seems to conflict with other things you have written. Btw, would you please use edit summaries? Thanks. Doug Weller (talk) 15:20, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
"TAG, you're such a bully. Just stick to the subject and answer the questions." What does this mean? What questions? What "names" that I apparently made public are you going to cause more trouble about? What have I done that is bullying and not asking you to stick to our policies?
And everyone else, thoughts on a block? ╟─Treasury§Tag►contribs─╢ 15:22, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- I think a block maybe required. GoodDay (talk) 15:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- The user has announced an intention to edit disruptively. ("I do propose to level the clear bias towards Rabbinical Judaism on this site"). Given the lack for tolerance for other viewpoints shown in the present discussion, that seems to me to justify a block. Looie496 (talk) 16:17, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- What is a block? Like a building block? Is it a threat? Why aren't my questions being answered? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Youknowbest (talk • contribs) 20:13, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- One last attempt at WP:AGF. Youknowbest, is English your first language? ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 20:20, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- You can take AGF too far. How can someone who's received warnings on Wikipedia not know what a block is, when they can use words like "source" "reliable" "rabbinical" and "consequence"? I don't think so, personally. ╟─Treasury§Tag►contribs─╢ 20:25, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- You can take these things too far, yes. But with AGF the "too far" is very very far, just in case. If YKB has stopped pestering you on your talk page, we can afford to extend the AGF a bit further. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 20:29, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- You can take AGF too far. How can someone who's received warnings on Wikipedia not know what a block is, when they can use words like "source" "reliable" "rabbinical" and "consequence"? I don't think so, personally. ╟─Treasury§Tag►contribs─╢ 20:25, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- One last attempt at WP:AGF. Youknowbest, is English your first language? ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 20:20, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
< True. I suggest that if there's any more nonsense, righteous POV-"correction", rudeness, hassling, canvassing or generally awkward behaviour and absurd comments, then a block for 36-48 hours might be in order. We also have to bear in mind Looie's quote above, threatening to wreak havoc! ╟─Treasury§Tag►contribs─╢ 20:31, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- When disagreement occurs, explain yourself using talk pages, and give others the opportunity to do the same. Consider whether a dispute stems from different perspectives and look for ways to reach consensus.
QUESTION: HAS THIS BEEN ACHIEVED? YES OR NO? No. So lets be creative and act in good faith to try to improve this wealth of information.AGF signing outYouknowbest (talk) 20:46, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- That was worth it: extend the AGF, prove that we're being trolled. So now I can be added to the list of people prepared to support a block should YKB add any of his WP:SYNTH rubbish to articles in the near future. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 20:49, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- What was worth it? Is this a bait and switch? Is that what it is, a game to waste my time? I am done with the nonsence, collectively, give each other a big hug, keep the site the way you see the world through rose coloured glasses. I don't care, but it was an education how this site operates and I will be copying this page for future reference. What a joke!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Youknowbest (talk • contribs) 20:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Bye, then. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 20:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- What was worth it? Is this a bait and switch? Is that what it is, a game to waste my time? I am done with the nonsence, collectively, give each other a big hug, keep the site the way you see the world through rose coloured glasses. I don't care, but it was an education how this site operates and I will be copying this page for future reference. What a joke!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Youknowbest (talk • contribs) 20:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- So wiki is outa San Francisco? Boy they musta got a rise about my comments on the anal sex and the abomination deal in the sefer torah, which REDVER never answered. No wonder the site leans so far to the left, it's almost bending over. Just so you know RED, the Jews don't accept a gay way of life, it's an abomination. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Youknowbest (talk • contribs) 21:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- I don't get it; whatcha talking about YKB? GoodDay (talk) 21:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Further up this thread, YKB switched targets from... well, whatever it was... to suddenly talking about homosexuality and how much of something it is about something and such. To which I didn't rise, which must have been very annoying for him. But he missed the point that I don't care what he thinks about what I do in the privacy of my own home. Or elsewhere, on occasion. He's entitled to his worthless views. I'm just in the whole poky-bum-sex thing for the cock, not the politics. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 21:31, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- I don't get it; whatcha talking about YKB? GoodDay (talk) 21:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Not so long ago, I discovered that the public library in Port Charlotte, Florida was using IP address 76.7.95.112, and based on the low amount of edits from that IP, I assumed that the IP was exclusively registered to the library. However, someone else says that the IP belongs to the entire Charlotte County Government, and (s)he is freaking out about rape victums now being able to be tracked down by their stalkers. I'm not sure, but I think that the person kicking up all the fuss might in fact one of these victums or something; who else would think of such a crazy idea? The reason I'm bringing this here is because I don't know how to handle this issue, and I'm not sure if we need admin, or even foundation attention here. GO-PCHS-NJROTC (Messages) 00:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- I guess I don't really see the issue here. All a shared-IP template does is post the name of the assigned user of an IP address, and that information is available to anyone on the Internet via WHOIS. Am I missing something? --MCB (talk) 01:11, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Well, kind of. This IP shows up as Embarq DSL in WHOIS. But personally, I don't see the issue either. GO-PCHS-NJROTC (Messages) 01:20, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Editing protected pages
Protected pages - the text box area now shows up in light RED when edited.
This should help to avoid the occasional problem when an administrator edits such a page and for whatever reason, doesn't realize or notice it's been protected (despite the header). FT2 (Talk | email) 01:07, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Having been the victim of having a page protected when you weren't looking, I think this is an excellent idea. Shell babelfish 01:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Doesn't work for me: I just tried editing the main page, and didn't see anything out of the ordinary. A couple of possibilities: I'm using Opera and I'm using the Classic skin. --Carnildo (talk) 07:08, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Did you bypass your local cache? The change was made to Common.css, so it should affect all skins, though that page is cached for 30 days unless bypassed explicitly. --MZMcBride (talk) 08:27, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- I just tried to edit the main page also -- a quick flash of red which I could have missed, then I was down the page in the Edit field. Maybe that's what happened to Carnildo? Doug Weller (talk) 08:40, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Did you bypass your local cache? The change was made to Common.css, so it should affect all skins, though that page is cached for 30 days unless bypassed explicitly. --MZMcBride (talk) 08:27, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- This should be fixed so it works for pages which are transcluded in cascade-protected pages - [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Issue|the current signpost]], for example.
That didn't last long. ~ User:Ameliorate! (with the !) (talk) 14:06, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Requested to be discussed by a user to confirm there is consensus - see MediaWiki_talk:Common.css#Red tinting of edit box on fully protected pages. FT2 (Talk | email) 14:25, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
User:75.171.190.1
Special:Contributions/75.171.190.1 User appears today and appears to only contribute to AfD's with a pretty consistent WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument. Not sure that's particularly damaging, but it certainly seems odd. Definitely seems like an experienced Wikipedian incognito. Positng here in case anyone sees it as worth intervening. Jclemens (talk) 03:31, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- I left a note for him/her to read WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Certainly seems like they're trying to make a point, but I'm not sure that anything could be or needs done. GrszReview! 03:40, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Well, inserting the same idiotic line into numerous AfDs is surely disruption if it continues. Looie496 (talk) 07:01, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- See Talk:Duff Beer, where a similar IP makes a similar comment. I am not certain it's an experienced editor. fish&karate 14:09, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Well, inserting the same idiotic line into numerous AfDs is surely disruption if it continues. Looie496 (talk) 07:01, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
United Industries Company – part of KIPCO group in Kuwait
Kindly note that I was checking our company name in Wikipedia and I noticed that it come under KIPCO as one of its subsidies. What I would kindly request Wikipedia administrators to do is to activate the link to our website such as what they did with United Real Estate Company which is in the same level of United Industries Company And if possible, we can please add the following summary about UIC as it is industrial arm of KIPCO United Industries Company (UIC) is one of the companies of Kuwait Projects Company (KIPCO) Group and is considered as the Group’s investment arm in the industrial sector.
Established in 1979, United Industries Company is a closed shareholding company based in the State of Kuwait. It was listed on Kuwait Stock Exchange (KSE) in 1997.
UIC invests in the downstream industries sector in Kuwait and the GCC states. The Company’s authorized and paid up capital is KD 24,773,437.500 (USD 93,484,669). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.43.23.1 (talk) 05:38, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- It would have been easier if you had mentioned the web site, but anyway I looked it up and made the link. Looie496 (talk) 06:59, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Brendatucker spamming via Special:Emailuser
- Brendatucker (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
I received an email from the above user late yesterday. Apparently "[she] will be trying to send this [email] to others who have worked on assessing theosophy and Blavatsky's writings to see if [she] can find anyone willing to help me in this crusade." The email goes on to self-promote
http://spam.theosophy.homestead.com
- theosophy.homestead.com: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • Spamcheck • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com
I haven't edited theosophy articles in any significant way. Anyone else getting these? I'd swing the banhammer based on the bit I quoted above alone. MER-C 10:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Blocked indef by Viridae. MER-C 12:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
barack obama
Have you read the introduction of Barack Obama the early years, child was on the site, the lanuage is outrages and it will be reportes —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trenide (talk • contribs) 15:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- I apologise if there was any vandalism/rude text in the header, though this site is subject to a disclaimer that such material may be there and children read Wikipedia at their parents' risk. Out of interest, who are you planning to report it to? ╟─Treasury§Tag►contribs─╢ 15:33, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Curious. That makes at least two SPAs created apparently just to point out
IPvandalism on Barack Obama or Talk:Barack Obama. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 15:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC).- You know what's more curious? We have a new editor who's first and ONLY edit is to WP:AN... Wildthing61476 (talk) 16:00, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Curious. That makes at least two SPAs created apparently just to point out
The vandalism that Trenide is complaining about was self-reverted, too... curiouser and curiouser. ╟─Treasury§Tag►contribs─╢ 16:02, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Not to breakup the conspiracies, but I know the first time I saw vandalism on this site, my first thought was to report it to administrators. It's not always sinister, and admins on most other sites admit to holding a position of authority. - auburnpilot talk 17:47, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Well "officially" admins have no authority here, but whether that's actually the case is another matter ;-) -- How do you turn this on (talk) 17:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Hiya, everybody. Yesterday I protected Joe the Plumber for 48 hours due to an edit war, and that protection is gonna' wear off early tomorrow morning. It doesn't seem that the content dispute that triggered the war is at all over, and I fear that it will resume as soon as the protection does expire. I wouldn't like to extend the protection, so that non-warrior editors can continue to work on it as normal, so if I could get some more eyes over on it now that'd be great. Cheers, and thanks. lifebaka++ 19:31, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- How about blocking the people that continue to edit war? -- How do you turn this on (talk) 19:37, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Depends on whether its the same people or random IP vandalism. If there are a small number of edit warriors and they don't get the message from page protection, then definitely block the edit warriors next time. Thatcher 19:40, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- With sufficient warning, that is in fact my plan. I just can't be on 24/7. Cheers. lifebaka++ 20:44, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Editnotices have been shown to be incredibly effective for edit wars, if you're interested. --MZMcBride (talk) 19:58, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Now that looks like a useful idea. Any examples of effective ones in recent use, MZ? ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 20:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- There's one on Sarah Palin, actually. Just read up on it. Thanks for the link, MZ, that will help. Cheers. lifebaka++ 20:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Ooh, that one's good. Agree with lifebaka - a useful tool to consider in the future. Ta muchly, MZ. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 20:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- There's one on Sarah Palin, actually. Just read up on it. Thanks for the link, MZ, that will help. Cheers. lifebaka++ 20:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- Now that looks like a useful idea. Any examples of effective ones in recent use, MZ? ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 20:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)