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: ''shamelessly negligent interpretation of [[WP:BLP]]''? Not from what I am reading from uninvolved editors that have commented on the subject on the different boards in which the subject was raised. You should not let a Wikipedia-bashing tabloid, that has many times in the past published misleading, and ridiculous material on Wikipedia, its editors, and its founder, to set the tone and substance of this debate. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 17:15, 23 February 2008 (UTC) |
: ''shamelessly negligent interpretation of [[WP:BLP]]''? Not from what I am reading from uninvolved editors that have commented on the subject on the different boards in which the subject was raised. You should not let a Wikipedia-bashing tabloid, that has many times in the past published misleading, and ridiculous material on Wikipedia, its editors, and its founder, to set the tone and substance of this debate. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 17:15, 23 February 2008 (UTC) |
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::So, you still endorse the [[WP:FORUMSHOP|forum shopping]] in defense of Momento? Note that WP:ANI criticisms have been brought to [[Talk:Prem Rawat#By website]] and further discussed. Only one negative commentator at WP:ANI appeared uninvolved. The positive commentary by an uninvolved editor at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive370#Francis Schonken]] ("That's not a clearcut BLP violation" - "saying that we can't link to something because it contains OR is to radically misunderstand Wikipedia policy") has been carelessly neglected too. --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] ([[User talk:Francis Schonken|talk]]) 18:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC) |
::So, you still endorse the [[WP:FORUMSHOP|forum shopping]] in defense of Momento? Note that WP:ANI criticisms have been brought to [[Talk:Prem Rawat#By website]] and further discussed. Only one negative commentator at WP:ANI appeared uninvolved. The positive commentary by an uninvolved editor at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive370#Francis Schonken]] ("That's not a clearcut BLP violation" - "saying that we can't link to something because it contains OR is to radically misunderstand Wikipedia policy") has been carelessly neglected too. --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] ([[User talk:Francis Schonken|talk]]) 18:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC) |
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::: You call Forum shopping, what can be assessed as an honest attempt to seek input from uninvolved editors. Many editors have commented on the fact that these links are not acceptable. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 18:20, 23 February 2008 (UTC) |
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== Article probation - proposal == |
== Article probation - proposal == |
Revision as of 18:20, 23 February 2008
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Current issues
Improper RfC
This discussion has been moved to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Mantanmoreland.
- The conversation died on 15 February, I guess we can archive this now? -- lucasbfr talk 13:02, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Placing community ban on User:David Lauder et al
The consensus is to impose a ban, despite this user's many positive contributions that partly mitigate the disruption. ArbCom may, of course, lift the ban if they consider that such a request should be honored. DrKiernan (talk) 08:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Archtransit desysopped
Since Archtransit became an administrator on January 10, 2008, a number of issues have been raised concerning his blocks, unblocks, and other administrator actions. His conduct has been the subject of a request for comment at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Archtransit, where the views of Archtransit's conduct have been generally negative and his responses generally deemed unsatisfactory. Substantial community time has been expended in commenting on the disputed actions and seeking to improve Archtransit's performance as an administrator, including on ANI, on the RfC, and on Archtransit's talkpage. An admin mentor has expressed further concerns on his approaches [3], and it has appeared that the situation may lead to an arbitration case being presented with a view to desysopping.
Separate from the above, the Arbitration Committee has also received checkuser findings and extensive analysis of editing histories, and has independently concluded by an overwhelming weight of many types of credible evidence, that User:Fairchoice, User:Whoaslow, User:Bqwe123 and User:Lethte, who were variously blocked, unblocked or in on-wiki debate with Archtransit, are in fact sockpuppets of Archtransit himself. Archtransit was asked to comment on this finding privately and his answer was felt to be quite evasive, focussing on why it was better that an accusation should not be made, rather than evidence which might help refute it. Archtransit stated essentially as his defense, that if puppetry had occurred it would still not be a problem since (he felt) no false consensus was created. We do not agree with this reasoning. We conclude that abusive and disruptive sockpuppetry has taken place, involving at times gross misuse of tools. Our conclusion parallels the apparent view of the community that even apart from this, there is insufficient communal confidence in Archtransit's abilities to appropriately use the tools recently granted by the community.
Accordingly, Archtransit is desysopped. He may not seek to regain administrator status without the approval of the Arbitration Committee. All of the sockpuppet accounts will be blocked. Additionally, Archtransit may only edit Wikipedia through one account and any change of account name shall be reported to the committee.
The committee is continuing to investigate whether Archtransit himself may be the sockpuppet of any other user. Evidence bearing on this may be presented either below, or privately to the Committee. Further action will be taken if developments warrant.
By agreement of the committee
evidence summary:
- Archtransit and the named accounts edit exclusively from the same dynamic range in the same metropolitan area.
- (Point of information): There are four accounts with significant edits in the relevant area (Archtransit, Fairchoice and two others), as well as a significant number of accounts previously blocked for trolling and socking.
- Archtransit edits only during certain times of day and claims to have no internet access at other times. Each of the 3 other significant accounts on this range also edits during the same time window, and none has any edits from any other location.
- A number of the users blocked and unblocked by Archtransit are also within the same relatively small metropolitan location. This is considered very unlikely to be chance. The administrative actions of Archtransit included unblocking related accounts that had been blocked by others for "trolling".
- Further information from checkuser indicates that despite the confounding effect of the dynamic IP, these different accounts are still strongly evidenced as editing from the same connection.
- In January, on one occasion, Archtransit and another account (Lethte) edited from the same IP within 2 minutes of each other Lethte@21.40 Archtransit@21.42. These two edits were on the same IP. The IP is rapidly reallocated, but the gap between post and block is suggestive even so, because of the extreme brevity of the two minute time period. Additionally, some 9 minutes before Lethte, Archtransit was posting on that same IP [4].
- On January 22, 23, and 30 Archtransit blocked or amended existing blocks of Lethte, Bqwe123 and Fairchoice. These blocks were notable for having autoblock deliberately disabled. Other blocks for cause of other users (other than username blocks) did not have this setting.
- The edit windows and interleaving strongly support sockpuppetry rather than friends or strangers.
FT2 (Talk | email) 02:53, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Confirm and endorse. This is as serious an abuse of administrator tools as has ever been encountered. I would like to thank all those who tried to work with Archtransit, even though unsuccessfully, and thank the checkusers who determined that the problems were even more serious than originally thought. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Wow. I knew there was.. problems to say the least, but.. just.. wow. SirFozzie (talk) 02:55, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I knew this was coming much before this. 哦,是吗?(O-person) 02:57, 19 February 2008 (GMT)
- Is there a way for a checkuser to make sure there are no irregularities at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Boeing 747? I'm fairly certain it's OK, but I had one heck of a time with Archtransit on my talk page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Specifically, there was a strange support early on, when the article was nowhere near featured status; if that's a problem, it's pervasive. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Which user names? Thatcher 03:08, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Checked again, there were two supports that kept the thing going well before it met criteria: Dwarf Kirlston and Brískelly (who has a long block record on the Italian Wiki). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Both unrelated. Thatcher 03:23, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks, Thatcher. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Both unrelated. Thatcher 03:23, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Checked again, there were two supports that kept the thing going well before it met criteria: Dwarf Kirlston and Brískelly (who has a long block record on the Italian Wiki). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Which user names? Thatcher 03:08, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Specifically, there was a strange support early on, when the article was nowhere near featured status; if that's a problem, it's pervasive. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Is there a way for a checkuser to make sure there are no irregularities at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Boeing 747? I'm fairly certain it's OK, but I had one heck of a time with Archtransit on my talk page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I knew this was coming much before this. 哦,是吗?(O-person) 02:57, 19 February 2008 (GMT)
- Wow. I knew there was.. problems to say the least, but.. just.. wow. SirFozzie (talk) 02:55, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Fantastic. I've been really very troubled about this account since I learned about the block of Jeh and my suspicions about it only increased throughout the RfC to the point that I raised my concerns and suspicions with an arbitrator a week and a half ago. So I'm really relieved that ArbCom has investigated it and stepped in to desysop without us needing to drag it through Arb, which was an almost certainty. It's a shame that it took so long to get to this point and that we allowed him to continue trolling us in this way. Kudos to those who tried to assume good faith and tried to to help him, Ryan you don't owe us an apology at all, you're a good dude who tried to do the right thing by trying to help someone. Sarah 04:33, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry guys - I tried to help him through the RfC even when most were calling for his head, in retrospect I should probably have let this go straight to ArbCom. Ryan Postlethwaite 03:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- (ec)There's no shame in making some extra effort to help somebody out. Hopefully we can learn from this- apart from the above open question, there's also some broader questions: How did this happen? What can we do to prevent it happening again? Friday (talk) 03:07, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- A while back, I suggested that we start offering a 30-60 day probationary period, with new admins encouraged NOT to use their new abilities willy-nilly during this first period, and to perhaps set up an experienced admin as a guide for the probationary period to explain things and to ease the new admin in on their path. SirFozzie (talk) 03:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- This was in my gut instinct well before his RfA, and from my earliest interaction with him over the Boeing FAC, but how can I oppose an RfA on gut instinct? As an average user (not an admin), I'll tell you that I'm extremely reluctant to oppose an RfA; it's not in the "no big deal" culture. I think the more important question is how can we more effectively desysop when problems surface? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:13, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Archtransit's RfA was successful with unanimous support. No issues were brought up at the time, so there wasn't any need to think he wasn't going to be like every other administrator. Unless you're suggesting we revamp the entire RfA system, Friday, I don't think there's any way we can determine the rogue-like capabilities of one or two editors who previously had perfect track records as non-administrators. There are, of course, ways to handle troublesome users once they have the administrator tools. Nishkid64 (talk) 03:18, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- We could surely borrow the COS's testing machine and patch to "determine the rogue-like capabilities of one or two editors who previously had perfect track records as non-administrators". Daniel (talk) 03:22, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Another idea might be to require all RfA candidates to submit to a checkuser. Yes, it wouldn't prove their not sockpuppting, but it might prove if they are. MBisanz talk 03:23, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Endorse. Would be good to explore RFCU for all RFAs. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree with the idea of performing a checkuser on all admin candidates. For one thing, m:CheckUser policy says, "The tool is to be used to fight vandalism, to check for sockpuppet abuse, and to limit disruption of the project. It must be used only to prevent damage to any of Wikimedia projects." I don't like the idea of using CheckUser as a fishing expedition, no matter how good our intentions are. Another consideration is that we might find evidence through CheckUser that's irrelevant. For example, Appraiser (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (who I've met personally) has been caught in several autoblocks related to Kdbuffalo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) and sockpuppets. Apparently, Appraiser works for a large company that funnels a lot of users (both registered and anonymous users) through a firewall/NAT connection. Any evidence found as a result of such a CheckUser request would be irrelevant at best, or harmful at worst. --Elkman (Elkspeak) 03:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- We could surely borrow the COS's testing machine and patch to "determine the rogue-like capabilities of one or two editors who previously had perfect track records as non-administrators". Daniel (talk) 03:22, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
(undent)Endorse Holy shit. That's rediculous. This was FAR worse than I suspected. I am shocked, as his RFA showed NO potential problems. This was clearly planned from the outset. As an aside, I see no reason to change or alter RFA. This shit happens, like any other system sometimes this stuff gets through. RFA is not to be held responsible as a process when someone clearly intentionally games it like that. Any system can be gamed, by anyone willing enough to do so. This clearly shows that, and any attempt to add a checkuser requirement to RFA will be pointless, since that will be gamable as well. Hot damn. I still can't believe this... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Come to think of it, that's probably a good argument for not adding a checkuser requirement to RFA. Better that people game RFA and then get blown up like this than encourage them to think up ways to game checkuser... Choess (talk) 03:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
The problem with the "gut instinct" strategy outlined above is that the people following their guts tend to catch flak for it. This case with Archtransit is the perfect example. Not to say "I told you so", but I knew something was wrong with this block ... it just didn't feel right. I couldn't explain it, though, because it wouldn't have occurred to me that an admin would block his own sock (although I have seen the drive-by-self-vandalism tactic used before). I was not the only one to express concern over this block, but, without anything concrete to support it, I backed out of it.
So the question then has to be, what good is gut feeling if it is rejected by the community? - Revolving Bugbear 18:12, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Another sock farm relationship
I'm convinced now that Archtransit is related to another long-running sock farm. My suspicions were raised before sockpuppetry on the part of Archtransit was confirmed. I believe that Archtransit is related to the Dereks1x sock farm. See Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Dereks1x.
This comment by Archtransit seals it for me. In the comment, Archtransit makes a number of pronouncements and accusations that are spot on with Dereks1x and his socks. For example, Archtransit insists on "due process", a hallmark of Dereks1x and socks. Furthermore, Archtransit singles out Ryulong in the comment above, and I believe that some Dereks1x socks did the same in the past. Next, Archtransit discusses an ominous "letter to the editor" above and makes a veiled threat to discredit Wikipedia in the media if he's blocked. At least one Dereks1x sock has done the same (the exact sock escapes me at the moment, perhaps it was the most active sock, User:VK35). Finally, Archtransit's only interaction with me was regarding the "rights" of indefinitely blocked users. Archtransit insisted that the right to vanish allows an indefinitely blocked user who was blocked for a legal threat to come back and engage in the same discussion which ultimately led to their block. This is such an odd argument to make that it caused me to be a bit suspicious of Archtransit from my first interaction, as Dereks1x socks (particularly VK35, of that I'm sure) have made the same or similar arguments. Actually, that wasn't the only thing which caused me to be suspicious of Archtransit--his interest in aviation, a continuing theme for Dereks1x socks as well, also piqued my interest. I suspect that CU would confirm that Archtransit is editing from the same IP range as Dereks1x and socks, though the evidence for most of those is stale at this point, I assume.
I'd be happy to provide diffs of most of the above later, but I'm quite busy at work at the moment. I will refer interested editors to User:Tvoz and User:Bobblehead, who know as much about the Dereks1x sock farm as anyone. · jersyko talk 19:54, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Additionally, I failed to mention that Archtransit began editing in earnest soon after VK35 was indef blocked. The timing of Archtransit's account creation also lines up with the creation of other known sock accounts, I believe. · jersyko talk 19:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, we are aware of this. It's good to have the same suspicion come up in multiple independent editors who were not part of the original investigation. We have the names from the last Dereks1x RFCU; if you have anything more recent, feel free to e-mail me. Thatcher 20:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed, all you need it to compare a single comment from Dereks1x to Archtransit's comments today:
- Archtransit
- ...If ArbCom seriously will grant me a fair process and not just desysop without letting me respond, then I will respond. Otherwise, it's so time consuming to write a response. That's the ethical thing to do. -- Archtransit 16:33, 19 February 2008 (UTC) [5]
- Are you also going to desysop my other administratorship? Archtransit (talk) 16:47, 19 February 2008 (UTC) [6]
- Dereks1x
- ...where I was banned for asking a legitimate ethics question to a candidate for administratorship. The person who nominated this person did not like the very proper ethics question and banned me. Those two and Jersyko are friends. This appears like a group within wikipedia are in cahoots against those who favor high ethical standards. I wish this wasn't true.Dereks1x 03:10, 31 March 2007 (UTC)[7]
- Please note the references to both ethics and administratorship. Quack quack? — Save_Us † 20:55, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well.. That explains why Dereks1x has been so quiet since his last sockfarm was pancaked. --Bobblehead (rants) 21:21, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Seems pretty flimsy to me, plenty of people talk about ethics, due process etc. You might be right or you might be wrong, but I certainly hope we don't start going around blocking anyone who (a) Has some dispute with Ryulong (real or imagined) (b) talks about ethics (c) complains of due process, we'll be blocking lots of people who meet all three, let alone meet two of them --81.104.39.63 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 21:35, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I didn't say we should set a campaign to block anyone who talks about ethics or due process, nor did I say block anyone at all. You seem to be twisting my language to make it seem like I want to crusade editors about potential involvement. I said they used similar terminology like "administratorship", which here on Wikipedia, is uncommon (most refer to it as adminship or [being a] administrator or sysop). I added the phrases about ethics to furthur the connection, the word administratorship is uncommon enough as it is, but Dereks1x refered to administratorship and ethics in the same post, as did Archtransit did in the same group of edits today. And as an aside, what do you have against Ryulong? Nobody even mentioned his name and you brought him up. — Save_Us † 21:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- "Nobody even mentioned his name and you brought him up" you mean other than the opening post to this section which says "Furthermore, Archtransit singles out Ryulong...". Yes I was drawing a few things together from this thread, and no I didn't mean to seem to be twisting your language, if it came across as that then I'll happily apologise. My main point was that pointing out a few similarities and saying quack quack quack doesn't prove anything, if you like I was trying to give a slippery slope arguement. There maybe a strong similarity between them, and they may indeed be related, but a couple of points like "ethics" and "due process" do not a duck make. --81.104.39.63 (talk) 21:53, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) To be fair, I did mention Dereks1x's beef with Ryulong above. I understand the evidence may look "pretty flimsy" to someone who is not familiar with Dereks1x et al. Nonetheless I think the case is pretty open and shut for those of us familiar with the farm. Identical editing quirks + identical arguments + identical interests + perfect timing + identical phraseology. If CU evidence confirms, as Thatcher implies above, it's a damn strong case. · jersyko talk 21:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Don't worry I'm not unfamiliar with the process, I've certainly been in the position where I'm certain that two people are the same (or very close), but can't put my finger exactly on why since it's usually a combination of many things. I'm also conscious of a certain amount of bias in looking for confirmation, which is what I was really talking about. Take any two editors with a reasonable amount of contribution and look close enough and you'll probably be able to find some common traits, I guess I'm also a little cynical about the amount of reactionary stuff we get here, something like this happens and everyone is happy to stand behind such findings, another week an admin will block a group of socks on a similar strength of evidence (taking into account that checkuser isn't a perfect infalible way of showing sockpuppetry, it just adds technical weight) and will be crucified for it. --81.104.39.63 (talk) 22:07, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- There is some technical evidence connecting Dereks1x to Archtransit et al, however, it is somewhat stale and therefore less conclusive on its own than the evidence tying Archtransit to Fairchoice et al. Which is exactly why it is useful to have the connection made by people who were unaware of the evidence (both here and in private e-mail), because it avoids the problem of confirmation bias if Jerseyko and friends don't know what they are confirming. Thatcher 22:11, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- You can't eat your cake and have it too... Will (talk) 15:18, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- There is some technical evidence connecting Dereks1x to Archtransit et al, however, it is somewhat stale and therefore less conclusive on its own than the evidence tying Archtransit to Fairchoice et al. Which is exactly why it is useful to have the connection made by people who were unaware of the evidence (both here and in private e-mail), because it avoids the problem of confirmation bias if Jerseyko and friends don't know what they are confirming. Thatcher 22:11, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Don't worry I'm not unfamiliar with the process, I've certainly been in the position where I'm certain that two people are the same (or very close), but can't put my finger exactly on why since it's usually a combination of many things. I'm also conscious of a certain amount of bias in looking for confirmation, which is what I was really talking about. Take any two editors with a reasonable amount of contribution and look close enough and you'll probably be able to find some common traits, I guess I'm also a little cynical about the amount of reactionary stuff we get here, something like this happens and everyone is happy to stand behind such findings, another week an admin will block a group of socks on a similar strength of evidence (taking into account that checkuser isn't a perfect infalible way of showing sockpuppetry, it just adds technical weight) and will be crucified for it. --81.104.39.63 (talk) 22:07, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I didn't say we should set a campaign to block anyone who talks about ethics or due process, nor did I say block anyone at all. You seem to be twisting my language to make it seem like I want to crusade editors about potential involvement. I said they used similar terminology like "administratorship", which here on Wikipedia, is uncommon (most refer to it as adminship or [being a] administrator or sysop). I added the phrases about ethics to furthur the connection, the word administratorship is uncommon enough as it is, but Dereks1x refered to administratorship and ethics in the same post, as did Archtransit did in the same group of edits today. And as an aside, what do you have against Ryulong? Nobody even mentioned his name and you brought him up. — Save_Us † 21:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Archtransit
- Indeed, all you need it to compare a single comment from Dereks1x to Archtransit's comments today:
I guess I'll ask: if we conclude that Archtransit is a sock of someone banned more than 10 months ago, what do we do about reverting stuff per WP:BAN? I see closed AFD's, I see closed suspected sock cases, a handful of protections, a featured article apparently... Fruit of a poison tree? I think I know the answer but wanted to bring it up anyway. —Wknight94 (talk) 22:35, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think that reverting all of his edits will ultimately be doing more harm than good to the project. Just another instance where we need to WP:IAR. Tiptoety talk 22:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, since there is no Confirmed its academic, but anything that he did should be evaluated on its own merits (and, ideally, will have been already) rather than reverted automatically based on WP:BAN. Avruch T 22:42, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Nothing *requires* that the edits be reverted, in any event. WP:BAN uses the permissive language "may be reverted", not "shall be reverted". In any event, I agree that reverting all of these edits would likely do more harm than good, though his administrative actions should be reviewed carefully, obviously. · jersyko talk 22:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Per WP:BAN any edits made in defiance of a ban may be reverted to enforce the ban, regardless of the merits of the edits themselves. Of course edits you disagree with may be reverted, but extra care must be taken so that vandalism, non-NPOV edits or violations of BLP aren't added to anything. But this is all assuming that this was made in defience of a ban (i.e. if this really is Dereks1x). Although Archtransit is banned, him being banned doesn't mean we go through the same process, reverting is mostly done because of someone editing in defience of a ban (again, assuming this really is Dereks1x, it could apply here). — Save_Us † 23:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Having reviewed the contribs of all of the possible socks, I am now convinced that 1) there were no other FACs influenced, and 2) the Boeing 747 FAC is fine. It did receive substantial review from other editors at FAC, and the editors at Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation say they were watching all along, and it's fine.[8] From the FAC side of things, I'm satisfied. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:10, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
[out] I don't have anything to add right now, other than to say that yesterday I also, independently, came to the same conclusion that Jersyko did, without any communication between us about it. Knowing the history of Dereks1x and those of his socks that we;ve uncovered, it is extremely clear to me that Archtransit is also one. This is not the first time he has tried for adminship, and I would take seriously his question "Are you also going to desysop my other administratorship?" and look into it. I'm available to reply here and by email if there are questions - I'm 100% sure they are one and the same, and also sure that there are many other of his socks doing damage to the project. Tempting as it is, I also don't think assuming good faith when it comes to this individual is warranted and I would recommend a very close look at all of his administrative edits, particularly closings, SSP cases and the like. This is, in his parlance, a "bad" editor and we need to be forceful in our response. He has already cost us too many hours of work. Tvoz |talk 23:49, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- One point I think should be raised is that similar phraseology can be adopted by different people. Probably not the case here, as there is other evidence, but phraseology on its own should never be enough. I've sometimes found myself starting to use phrases used by others, and that alone is not evidence of sockpuppetry. More is needed to confirm a suspicion like that, and as I said, it seems that further evidence is available here. Carcharoth (talk) 14:54, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, preparing a future defense for yourself, eh? Clever! —Wknight94 (talk) 14:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ah ha, I did not know that. (Never tried). Oops! I've somehow managed to use the same wording as you. Let's see if I can adopt any other of your idiosycrancies and mannerisms... That will ensure you go down with me! Clever! Carcharoth (talk) 15:56, 20 February 2008 (UTC) Seriously, consciously copying others can rebound sometimes, for precisely the reasons raised here. Try to retain a distinctive style you can call your own, unless you want to deliberately engage in satirical imitation. A prize for guessing whose style I am imitating here.
- Ah, preparing a future defense for yourself, eh? Clever! —Wknight94 (talk) 14:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Mandatory CU on RFA
Why would this be bad again, for prospects? Lawrence § t/e 18:05, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Fishing is the usual response. If all admin candidates are subject to CU, then CU needs to be subject to much more stringent and careful selection (he said with complete respect and high regard for all of our current checkusers). Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 18:08, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Easy to evade if you prepare, so will create a false sense of security. Thatcher 18:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's not a perfect tool, but it's still useful as far as it goes. Suggest making this a kind of litmus test, meaning optional for RFA. I'll be opposing anyone who refuses, but the rest of ya'll can do whatever you want. Friday (talk) 18:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that it's the m:Checkuser policy that would need to be changed. The m:Privacy policy needs no amendment, as it does not cover the actual use of the checkuser tool, just what data is released from it. My point is, the community does not have the authority to change the checkuser policy to allow us to check users with no prior evidence of disruption. --Deskana (talk) 18:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Violates the privacy policy of the Wikimedia Foundation, of which this is only one project. Gives a false sense of security. Would require several additional checkusers. Low risk situation - every action an admin takes is reversible. Easy to game; dedicated trollers can easily manage to beat this system. Mostly though, it's way outside of the Foundation's acceptable use of checkuser. Oh. What Deskana said. Risker (talk) 18:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I would add that when any diagnostic tool is applied to a population with a low baseline prevalence, then regardless of how good that tool is, false positives will outweigh true positives (Bayes' theorem, more or less). Using checkuser where there is a reasonably high pre-test probability of sockpuppetry is a good idea, as it leads to a reasonable positive predictive value. Applying it across the board to a population which (hopefully) has a low rate of abusive sockpuppetry will degrade the positive predictive value of "confirmatory" results, and lead to more false positives than true positives, even with highly skilled checkusers at the helm. MastCell Talk 19:21, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah. What he said. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 19:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- (ec)The other thing this might help is the open proxies issue. As I understand it, checkusers can identify users operating from open proxies. So basically, if a troll tried to game the system, he'd have to know how to operate from multiple IPs and not doing it by using an open proxy system. I'm sure its technically possible, but I suspect it would raise the bar on the level of knowledge (and therefore pool of potential abusers) required to do it. MBisanz talk 19:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- (ec with ec)Well, now that we're all adding our two cents: mine are that this is a completely reasonable and supportable policy which does not run contrary to the spirit of anything Wikimedia has put forward, and that the foundation would have little problem with it. In fact, I will absolutely vote yes if it comes up to a vote. The only problem is that the larger Wikipedia gets, the harder it gets to change common sense proposals. I recently was part of a major policy change on commons, and I was absolutely shocked how easy it was compared to here, where even the most innocuous change (this doesn't necessarily apply) is not possible without a great brouhaha. I do believe this would catch more bad guys than hurt good guys: the checkusers know how to do their job after all. The Evil Spartan (talk) 19:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Pretty much what Thatcher says above, it's a false sense of security. Running for RFA? Know you'll be checkusered? then modify your editing behaviour and you'll pass everyone being happy you aren't an evil sockmaster, once in you can enact your plan of world domination. Do the checkusering quietly isn't an option, since you'll have to reveal as soon as you discover such a case, then it's apparent that it happens and easily avoidable. Can't see anything real to gain and plenty of headaches to be had. --81.104.39.63 (talk) 19:46, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- (ec with ec)Well, now that we're all adding our two cents: mine are that this is a completely reasonable and supportable policy which does not run contrary to the spirit of anything Wikimedia has put forward, and that the foundation would have little problem with it. In fact, I will absolutely vote yes if it comes up to a vote. The only problem is that the larger Wikipedia gets, the harder it gets to change common sense proposals. I recently was part of a major policy change on commons, and I was absolutely shocked how easy it was compared to here, where even the most innocuous change (this doesn't necessarily apply) is not possible without a great brouhaha. I do believe this would catch more bad guys than hurt good guys: the checkusers know how to do their job after all. The Evil Spartan (talk) 19:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Violates the privacy policy of the Wikimedia Foundation, of which this is only one project. Gives a false sense of security. Would require several additional checkusers. Low risk situation - every action an admin takes is reversible. Easy to game; dedicated trollers can easily manage to beat this system. Mostly though, it's way outside of the Foundation's acceptable use of checkuser. Oh. What Deskana said. Risker (talk) 18:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Interesting how this sits with all the drama surrounding the revealing of use of TOR nodes by an admin candidate a while back. --81.104.39.63 (talk) 19:52, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- There is at least one wiki that requires a CU for all admin candidates although I cannot right now remember which, or if it is only for successful ones (prior to appointment) or for candidates at the start. I therefore am not sure it violates WMF policy. Nevertheless I oppose this idea. CU is not magic pixie dust, it IS foolable, it is better for determining malfeasance than for showing innocence, and we will get too many false positives (and associated dramah) along with a false sense of security. Generally not a good idea in my view. ++Lar: t/c 20:11, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree with this idea. If someone wants to spend months and months of their time adding such good content that they're considered for and attain adminship - all just to say "ha ha, gotcha!" two months later, then Wikipedia wins. We end up with months and months of good content and the only price is a soap opera every once in a while (which, let's be honest, is actually a nice breakup to the monotony). Thanks, Archtransit! (Now go away) —Wknight94 (talk) 20:12, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- OK, that last sentence of yours made me laugh out loud. Thanks Wknight94 for your clarity and perspective. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 20:36, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree with this idea. If someone wants to spend months and months of their time adding such good content that they're considered for and attain adminship - all just to say "ha ha, gotcha!" two months later, then Wikipedia wins. We end up with months and months of good content and the only price is a soap opera every once in a while (which, let's be honest, is actually a nice breakup to the monotony). Thanks, Archtransit! (Now go away) —Wknight94 (talk) 20:12, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Basically, yes. I also disagree with mandatory c/u for RFA hopefuls. False sense of security, easily gameable, currently against existing policy, privacy compromise is unwarranted, and the whole assumption of "guilt" thing - Alison ❤ 20:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- And there's nothing to stop you socking after you gain adminship, after all... ~ Riana ⁂ 20:44, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Side question to the above
Archtransit wasn't (unless I missed something) using open proxies. But admins can edit via them, even if the IPs for proxies are blocked? Is that correct? Wouldn't this just allow someone to go totally open proxy for usage once they got adminship, and then build up another account for an RFA via their normal connection afterwards? Isn't there a simple way to stop anyone from editing via blocked IPs? Lawrence § t/e 20:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Imperfection inherent in the system - I imagine it would involve turning off IP-block exemption at some level. This is the huge problem with issues like this - you get to a point where you can't trust anyone at all, for the sake of a few nutters :/ ~ Riana ⁂ 20:44, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
(e/c) If the open proxy IP is hard-blocked, even admins cannot edit through them. They would have to unblock the IP first. If the open proxy IP is soft-blocked, then anyone can login and edit through them. I don't know if that answered your question... —Wknight94 (talk) 20:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)- No, admins can edit through hard-blocked IPs due to the ipblock-exempt flag. I'd rather like to be able to turn that off, actually, because it's useless for me to have it and it would be a security risk if my account were compromised (which seems unlikely, but better to be safe...), but the current software setup causes ipblock-exempt and adminship to go together or not at all. --ais523 20:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I guess the question would be why bother? What does two admin accounts get you that one doesn't? Sure you can be a pain in the arse with one right until it gets desysoped and there aren't many ways to badly screw things up (and many/most? probably haven't thought of them) --81.104.39.63 (talk) 20:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I kinda agree, nothing to be lost except trust (and in some people's cases, pride). ~ Riana ⁂ 20:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, yes, I just thought of this after poking around the archives to see similar cases of desyoppings. Why does any user even need the ability to edit through a blocked IP? What does it benefit Wikipedia? Lawrence § t/e 20:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm assuming that it's the likelihood that you're editing through a blocked school/college/etc IP? And basically trying to maximise an admin's usefulness as far as possible? ~ Riana ⁂ 21:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- That makes sense, I guess, but it just seems to be a bit of an odd pass to use blocked IPs. If they're behind an improperly blocked IP they can always ask for it to be unblocked, or do it themselves. Why would/should admins be able to edit from an otherwise properly blocked IP address? Lawrence § t/e 21:08, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I was under the impression that it didn't used to be the case, but when we had massive autoblock problems with AOL IPs it got turned on. I also know that some admins used to edit from school/college/uni which had long term abuse problems, you used to see them unblock work for an hour or two and then reblock, I guess this just removes that need. Hopefully admins have the trust of the community to not abuse it, or maybe there is a case to be made for differentiating between blocked ips and blocked open proxies at the software level. --81.104.39.63 (talk) 21:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Admins were made exempt from IP blocks within the last year or so; when I first joined it was indeed a problem. Thatcher 21:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I've found it quite useful. My school's periodically blocked due to hordes of vandals, and I'll edit from there. It actually annoys aforementioned vandals when they see me editing and they can't, so it's good for two things. It's not really doing much, and we can (mostly) trust admins to be able to edit while on a blocked IP. Solution looking for a problem? Keilana|Parlez ici 23:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Admins were made exempt from IP blocks within the last year or so; when I first joined it was indeed a problem. Thatcher 21:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm assuming that it's the likelihood that you're editing through a blocked school/college/etc IP? And basically trying to maximise an admin's usefulness as far as possible? ~ Riana ⁂ 21:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- There is no particular technical barrier to having an admin edit from proxies and then bring up a new account through a normal ISP, but there are no technical barriers to a lot of anti-community type behavior that one could imagine. Hopefully only the most dedicated miscreants will make the effort to run up multiple admin accounts, and there will be very few of them. Thatcher 21:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- That's a fair statement of wikipedia overall, we try to be open and let many participate. We could put in many more measures to stop people doing all sorts and there is a cost involved with implementing them, either in terms of greater workload on the rest of the community, or in terms of driving good contributors away. It's why I wonder why vandals can seem so proud of their efforts, we more or less leave the doors and windows wide open, it's not some great challenge to get in and do some "damage". --81.104.39.63 (talk) 22:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Someone on Wikipedia Review claimed to have multiple admin accounts wiht the full knowledge of a CheckUser, but I always considered that claim to be bollocks. I'm sure there are one or two baddies with sysop bits, but as soon as they break cover they will be on a one-way trip to ArbCom and if they never do, then the laugh is on us :-) Guy (Help!) 23:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Last heads-up
WP:ANI#Need to reopen Archtransit's sock cases and other actions
Archtransit's short career as a sysop included killing sock reports and possibly, swaying other matters too. See ANI post. Being fixed. FT2 (Talk | email) 00:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Crossref for future:
- Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Archtransit
- Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Archtransit
- Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Dereks1x
- Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Onequestion —Preceding unsigned comment added by FT2 (talk • contribs) 19:17, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Technically, it might not have been archtransit
It's like this....you take off the shelf router from Linksys, Netgear, etc and put it on your DSL or cable modem it will keep the WAN IP (the IP that the checkuser uncovers) on the router and the router issues non-routable, non-broadcastable LAN IP addresses to the computers and other devices on the network, but from any computer if you edit wikipedia or anything it appears to the world that it's all coming from a single "real" WAN IP address. It's also certainly possible that there is/was someone on archtransit's network who was wikistalking him and making accounts and edits just to push his buttons. This is a little long winded but it's technically possible and cannot be ruled out. thoughts? ideas? Bstone (talk) 05:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's also possible that the real Archtransit was kidnapped and some assumed his identity in order to disrupt Wikipedia. John Reaves 05:49, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Assuming that is true, then why was Archtransit unblocking these wiki-stalkers? And if they somehow gained access to his account, then it was still a compromised admin account. MBisanz talk 05:52, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not weighing in on if he was behind the socks or not, but just providing a theoretical technical alternative. Bstone (talk) 06:06, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- The simplest answer is always the best. Which is easier to believe: A grand conspiracy by another person who just HAPPENS to be on the same WAN as Archtransit and is looking to discredit him, or Archtransit is an old, well practiced troll(likely Dereks1x) who did a real good job of maintaining a persona until he became an admin, and when Jehochman started to request checkusers on his socks (not knowing they were Archtransit's socks) he got panicky and sloppy and finally got busted. I'm going with the second story until a simpler one comes along... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:17, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not weighing in on if he was behind the socks or not, but just providing a theoretical technical alternative. Bstone (talk) 06:06, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- No, your right that is a theoretical alternative. But you'd think that if his account was compromised or being harassed, he'd of contacted Ryan or Riana via email or registered another account from another location and posted a "ZOMG my account is compromised" message. MBisanz talk 06:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Just briefly, looking over my e-mail correspondence with AT, there is no doubt in my mind (and indeed, there wasn't at the time either, but I never thought it was this bad) that he was up to something cagey. His responses to my questions ranged from secretive and minimal to utterly bizarre. Occam applies. ~ Riana ⁂ 06:35, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- No, your right that is a theoretical alternative. But you'd think that if his account was compromised or being harassed, he'd of contacted Ryan or Riana via email or registered another account from another location and posted a "ZOMG my account is compromised" message. MBisanz talk 06:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
To remind of points raised earlier, it wasn't just the technical evidence that was at play. Examples of non technical evidence cited include removing or disabling autoblock (which is a significant anti-sock measure) on some user blocks, but not others... where the users this was done to are precisely those who edit from the same area, with the same technical "fingerprints", and who are evidenced as socks already. It includes having wiki-logs that show one specific IP used to edit by by Archtransit, then by Lethte, then by Archtransit again, an extremely unlikely event to be genuine in the circumstances. And so on. FT2 (Talk | email) 02:34, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- The excuses are quite silly. See this Uncyclopedia article for an example of how this argument is going. bibliomaniac15 02:38, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Speculation by non-checkusers on what the checkuser evidence was is not at all helpful and likely to lead you down the garden path. Regarding this particular attempt to explain away the findings, the pattern of IP usage by these editors can not be explained by having multiple users on a single router or firewall. Thatcher 06:26, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Relisting of AfD discussions is getting ridiculous
Take a look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2008 February 19. It's ridiculous to see how many discussions have been relisted on this one day alone. Make a decision, people. Either come down on one side or the other, or call it a no decision, don't just leave these things hanging for weeks. AfD's are supposed to last five days, not ten, not fifteen. Corvus cornixtalk 04:23, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Um, as a frequent closing admin for AfD's, unless you rather see a lot of "no consensus" AfD's even for articles that is suppose to be deleted, I don't think it is a good idea to make 5 days a hard rule, a lot of deletion debate do need input from experianced editors to point out whether if the article should be deleted or not, and I don't think the process needs to be rushed. Yamamoto Ichiro 会話 04:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- so what happens if there's no difference after relisting? Does it get relisted ad infinitum until it gets to a point where it's at the point a particular user wants it to be, at which point they pounce and say, "closed"? Corvus cornixtalk 04:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- On discussions where no one participates, I'll relist it twice at most, and then close it as no consensus if no one participates. If only a small number participate and there's no clear consensus, I'll relist it twice before closing it no consensus. Just my little personal rule, others may do differently. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:38, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- If you don't want them relisted, vote on them! Give admins something to work with! --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- (ec)I do no think that admins are purposefully "looking the other way" and ignoring closing AfD's, they are just busy and there are a lot of AfD's. Give it time. Tiptoety talk 04:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- If I see an AFD that has been resisted more than once, with only delete votes or only a nom, I'll usually close it as "Delete" based on no one caring enough to try to keep it. Mr.Z-man 04:36, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- OMG! Really! That's quite disturbing. Just because people aren't watching over articles like a mother hen so they see one has been AfD'd they could be deleted. As someone who has been sidelined from working on articles only to try to rescue an article at AfD I find that highly problematic. Not everyone who I looking for information is also watchlisting every article worth keeping and many are not here every day or even every week. I would much rather err on keeping something borderline that needs improving rather than deleting something because the right set of editors hasn't shown up to fight to keep it. Very discouraging to creation of articles in my opinion. Benjiboi 05:38, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- If I see an AFD that has been resisted more than once, with only delete votes or only a nom, I'll usually close it as "Delete" based on no one caring enough to try to keep it. Mr.Z-man 04:36, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- (ec)I do no think that admins are purposefully "looking the other way" and ignoring closing AfD's, they are just busy and there are a lot of AfD's. Give it time. Tiptoety talk 04:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- so what happens if there's no difference after relisting? Does it get relisted ad infinitum until it gets to a point where it's at the point a particular user wants it to be, at which point they pounce and say, "closed"? Corvus cornixtalk 04:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- If an article could go two weeks on AFD without a single vote, that means it could have been PRODed without opposition anyway...Someguy1221 (talk) 05:51, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- The hope is that if the subject is truly encyclopedia-worthy, there will be more than a couple users in the pool of about 5000 active ones that want to see it kept. Mr.Z-man 06:46, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- (ecx2)I understand your objection, but disagree that repeated relisting is a bad thing. If you read the time stamps on many relisted AfDs, you will see they are busy in the first few days and then completely drop off. In these cases, you can suspect that relisting will lead to further discussion and consensus can often arise. Yes, at some point no consensus has to be concluded, but five or six people disagreeing is not enough to determine that consensus on the issue is impossible to come to. SorryGuy Talk 04:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Take a look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Great Falls Police Department. It's been relisted twice now. How many !votes does one discussion need? And relisting things doesn't make the number of AfDs go down, it makes things worse. Corvus cornixtalk 04:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- What is wrong with it though? If it makes the consensus clearer, then so be it. Yamamoto Ichiro 会話 04:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- i don't think that is what happens. I think people will just harden their positions, the discussion will become heated, or else people will just say, "how many times do I need to repeat the same arguments," and drift away because they're bored with the whole thing. Corvus cornixtalk 04:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think so, a lot of times, the relisted debates are the ones with so little comments or a debate with a nomination statement like "WP:N" with absolutely nothing else on it. I don't think people will "harden their positions" if there isn't any position there to begin with. Yamamoto Ichiro 会話 04:46, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- i don't think that is what happens. I think people will just harden their positions, the discussion will become heated, or else people will just say, "how many times do I need to repeat the same arguments," and drift away because they're bored with the whole thing. Corvus cornixtalk 04:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- As it currently stands, there is no clear consensus (or even a slightly muddy consensus) in that discussion. If, after relisting it twice, no clear consensus is reached, I would lean toward closing it as no consensus myself, though. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:44, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't relist ones like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Great Falls Police Department. I only relist if there is no quorum, e.g. a nom. and one keep or just a nom. —Wknight94 (talk) 04:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I likely wouldn't have relisted it the second time. I'd have to think about the first one. I think there was enough discussion after the first relist to close it. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't relist ones like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Great Falls Police Department. I only relist if there is no quorum, e.g. a nom. and one keep or just a nom. —Wknight94 (talk) 04:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- If you want to fix this, try spamming AfD at the village pump and elsewhere. What's needed is more people participating, as noted above. Guy (Help!) 10:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Relisting should only be used where the debate is so sparse that it is not even possible to see that there is not agreement over what should be done (or if there was some other causal reason for restarting things). Merely having a split debate is fine - it means there is no consensus, which is a logical outcome of a process that tries to determine whether there is consensus to delete or not. Relisting just because making a decision is tricky is not correct; unless there is a consensus to X, the result is no consensus, and to answer Yamamoto Ichiro's question at the top: yes, more no consensus closures are fine if the community has not reached a consensual position on what should be done. Relisting Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Great Falls Police Department was unnecessary the first time, and just wrong the second time. Admins are charged with calling the community's position on the debate, and if there is no consensus over what should be done, then they must say so, not re-spin the wheel until faced with an easy closure. Splash - tk 10:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I've just closed that onewith a merge and redirect to the Great Falls, Montana article since there is more then enough discussion even after the second round of discussion (after the first relisting). The majority didn't want to keep the article and many of the arguments on the Keep side was weaker then the Delete/Merge side. It is now merged and redirect although those who to fix/add/remove stuff can do so if necessary.--JForget 15:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Generally, I had always considered that 4 or 5 votes (or more of course and even sometimes 3 when it is 3 delete or 3 keeps or 3 redirects) in 5-7 days is more then enough for an AFD discussion to be closed without re-listing it.--JForget 15:08, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- The problem is that nobody
votesat AFD. If an AFD gets relisted, it's because there's 3 votes, all of which conflict with each other. A solution would be if after one relist, if there's something like 4 delete, 2 keep, 2 merge for example, an admin makes a call based on the article's merits rather than consensus or lack thereof. Luigi30 (Taλk) 15:12, 19 February 2008 (UTC)- Yes, that is a good example of when a relist is the thing to do - with 3 divergent opinions being the only material, it's not really possible to even see if argumentation might make a difference, and so a relist is ok. But relisting in the example given above was unnecessary even after the first time around; as in some other cases, relist was used (in good faith) despite the fact that it was apparent that there was no agreement on what the disposition of the article should be i.e. there was 'no consensus'. Splash - tk 16:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- You can also help out by closing them as keep. See WP:NAC. But then you deal with the weeks of WP:DRV that you'll have to go through. Consensus not being reached yet and discussion ongoing and article improving are all a natural and beneficial part of the process. What is so bad about relisting them? What is harmed? Why rush to make some half-assed decision or waste the discussion with a no-consensus. I relisted over a dozen on the date you listed, yes, including the fire department one. Look what happened after that relist... 5 people !voted delete and 1 merge. If the people are only participating because they are pissed off at the relist.... then good! If I closed more than a dozen in a row as No Consensus, I'd get screamed at, and delrevved to death. You can't just whine about relisting with no concrete plan for how it can be done better. Well, you CAN, but why???? JERRY talk contribs 22:39, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I completely agree with Jerry's assessment here. As a relatively new AfD closer, I can't imagine intentionally closing something with only a !vote or two as keep, delete, or even non=consensus without pissing someone off (either the nominator or the !voter). Relisting is the only way to go in those instances. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 22:55, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Keeper76, I think everyone agrees with your point, but Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Great Falls Police Department had 6 people at the first relist and 9 at the second. Splash - tk 13:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I've closed far more than that in a day as no consensus, and have never once found such a closure properly executed go to deletion review. If there is no consensus, say so; it is not a waste of a process to evaluate consensus if it concludes that there is, in fact, no consensus. People wanting to delete an article merely to get it off AfD is an extremely bad situation to try to encourage, as it has nothing whatever to do with the article. A concrete plan for not relisting is to close as no consensus where no consensus exists and there are more than a few people contributing. If the debate is too tough for you to make a decision on, then leave it to a more experienced admin to handle - the trouble with relisting is that it draws the process out for weeks on end (literally, in the case of a double relist) and overburdens AfD with discussions that could have been dealt with adequately earlier. It also tends to freeze articles as noone wants to contribute to an article that might die shortly, whereas a no consensus closure gives the concrete reprieve that is needed. Splash - tk 13:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- One thing that often helps get a discussion going is to post the nomination in the appropriate Wikiproject's deletion list. Sancho 22:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Great Falls Police Department isn't a good example because it was initially relisted by a participant right after her own comment. In general, lack of useful input is a recurrent problem, advertising might help, but opining can also be time intensive. Nevertheless, commenting on an AfD with few contributions can sometimes be more helpful than relisting.--Tikiwont (talk) 16:22, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- It is also a poor example as my suggestion, merging it, was the ultimate result (and, obviously in my own opinion, the best result). However my comment could easily have been ignored for its singularity, especially on an AFD which was already due to close, so I re-listed it, mostly hoping that the previous participants, particularly those who argued for outright deletion (and of those, particularly my good friend Mr. Goodman) might still be watching the discussion and possibly willing to reconsider the need for deleting, which is rarely a genuine "need" per se. Then there was a flurry of mixed opinions by several new participants, and thankfully a closer well-endowed with common sense. Yes I took a gamble here, but I don't believe I wasted the time of anyone who wasn't already actively seeking to waste their own time (it was, after all, an AFD). Some might accuse me of "gaming the system" too but I'll let the result speak for itself. — CharlotteWebb 15:10, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
We had a debate earlier where an article on a band was nominated for deletion on 3 February, citing notability. No comments were made, by the author or anyone else, for or against deletion. The debate was relisted on 13 Feb, and again received no comments at all. Since the AfD tag, the article had received no edits at all. This article was likely have been a good candidate for WP:PROD, and another admin agreed. Would it be worthwhile to treat debates where there was no discussion whatsoever after 10 days as an uncontested prod? Obviously, a request to recreate such an article would be approved immediately, as with a prod. It would be an alternative to relisting over and over again. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 16:31, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps in a case like this you could gently "prod" the contributor(s) with one of those impersonal and incredibly verbose talk page templates. I believe there's one that uses some 500 words to say "Warning, your shit's on AFD, you might want to look into it", but I can't seem to find it this instant. This would actually be useful in cases where nobody shows up, while still annoying the rest of the time. — CharlotteWebb 15:10, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Forum shopping
- The suitability of using http://www.prem-rawat-maharaji.info/ (and other links) as "external link" in the Prem Rawat article was discussed here: Talk:Prem Rawat#By website
- Momento brought it to WP:BLPN, see WP:BLPN#Prem Rawat links. OK, I'm fine with that one (it is an appropriate forum): nonetheless the advise given there included "The matter is being discussed on the article talk page. It has not been determined that the sites in question are derogatory, and that linking to them violates policy. Let's find a consensus on the article talk page." (Will Beback's comment of 01:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC))
- Nonetheless, the issue was brought to yet another forum, WP:ANI, by Momento - see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive370#Francis Schonken. That's forum shopping. Complaining about me I can live with. Finding another forum to raise, again, the same issue for which he gained no general approval elsewhere (branding the use of certain sources as "external link" in the Prem Rawat article as being a BLP infringement) is another.
- Momento warned by me about the forum shopping: User talk:Momento#Forum shopping (note, Momento asked as a concequence of that warning not to post on his talk page any more [13] - that is why I move this to this noticeboard)
- Disruptive editing on a Wikipedia:Lead section#Bold title issue (which somehow Momento seems to make into a BLP issue for reasons unfathomable by me).
- Issue explained at Talk:Prem Rawat#Balyogeshwar: in short Balyogeshwar is an incoming redirect to the Prem Rawat article. It was not explained in the Prem Rawat article that Balyogeshwar is an alternative name for the same person, yet one of the footnotes uses this name [14].
- As a result of the discussion at Talk:Prem Rawat#Balyogeshwar I had put this alternate name of the same person in the lead section *WITH A REFERENCE* [15]
- Momento removes, stating it is unreferenced [16] (BTW leaving the reference that in fact is not a reference for the part of the sentence he has left)
I'd like an uninvolved admin to look into this. There are more instances of "slightly disruptive editing" by Momento, which if requested, I'd flesh out. Don't know whether I should mention this, but Momento has received two 24H blocks for 3RR on the Prem Rawat article not too long ago (block log). The last of these was a result of my reporting at WP:AN3, after a warning given by me on Momento's talk page: User talk:Momento#Prem Rawat (II). --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- This is the second time you bring Momento's editing behavior to ANI, without making any comments about the general disruption that has taken place in that article, including edit-waring, SPs, anon disruption, dormant accounts, and more. Mediation has been proposed, but so far there are no takers. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- This isn't WP:ANI, this is WP:AN
- Before this one, I didn't bring anything to WP:AN for as long as I can recall.
- The last time I brought a new topic to WP:ANI it regarded anonymous editing on the Prem Rawat article,[17] so, yes anon disruption as listed by Jossi.
- And yes, I replied to the WP:ANI thread Momento started on me. I gave the link above: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive370#Francis Schonken.
- I hope the notion of "uninvolved admin" is not unknown to Jossi.
- Do I have to elaborate on other & similar disruption by Momento, as I suggested above?
- Or on the uninvolved admin's opinion on Jossi's actions following my listing of Momento on WP:AN3? --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:54, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi has chosen to formulate a counter-proposal below (which is his good right), #Article probation - proposal. I can't help noticing though that, again, he's protecting the editor who is experienced as most disruptive (not only by me!) w.r.t. the Prem Rawat article. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Francis Schonken's most recent arrival to the Pem Rawat article was heralded by his undiscussed addition of 25,000 bites of material to the article. Many editors have no understanding of BLP policy and Francis gets annoyed because so many of his edits are contrary to this important policy and I am obliged to point it out to him.Momento (talk) 22:49, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- I have been editing this page for a couple of weeks, having no other connection to the people or article subject. Momento's editing is more than slightly disruptive. MOST of the 47 items on Momento's talk page are warnings and arguments about this one page, and he/she has had two blocks for 3RR and for disruption/edit warring in the last 2 weeks. Stopping Momento's disruption would be far away the best thing we could do to calm things down, in my opinion. A lot of other edits are responses to Momento's, and these unilateral actions are creating resentment that sets other people off.
- These problems have certainly continued during my short time at the page, though to be fair Momento has cooled down in just the last 24 hours. One issue, as I just mentioned on Prem Rawat Talk, is that Momento appears to be constantly hovering over the page, reacting to everything, which I think distorts his or her time frame, creating a sense of urgency to act. (And I know I'm somewhat guilty of this too.)
- There is another user, PatW, who is very emotional on the talk page and slips into personal attacks every couple of days. However, PatW has recused himself from editing (he is a former Prem Rawat devotee, as Momento is apparently a current devotee), so the overall effect, while certainly aggravating, is much less.
- As soon as I get some more time, I will assemble some lists of Momento's diffs as examples. Msalt (talk) 22:52, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- I can help. In the last week I have made nearly 100 edits. Almost all have been to the Prem Rawat talk page and 15 have been to the article itself, that is 2 a day. During this period there have been over 100 article edits by all editors. Of my 15 edits, 3 involved removal of an inappropriate link according to WP:BLP and WP:EL and it remains deleted, 5 involved removal of unsourced material and they remain deleted, 3 involved removal of a NPOV tag (one inserted by a banned sock puppet IP [[18]]) and 1 involved removing an image that has been deemed a breach of Wiki policy. The 3RR blocks should not have been made as they are covered by BLP policy - Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Verifiability. The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals. As Jimbo Wales says " It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced". Unfortunately the blocking admins do not seem to understand BLP policy, all they note is three reverts. The short story with this dispute is that Msalt, Francis Schonken and Will Beback feel it their duty to add criticism to the Prem Rawat article and in their haste they constantly violate WP:OR, WP:V and WP:BLP. The problem is that I'm insisting that their edits should follow BLP policy as any proper investigation will prove.Momento (talk) 04:19, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- I see here a major lack of appreciation for the requirements of Biographies of Living Persons. Msalt, you candidly announced when you first showed up at Prem Rawat that you didn't know as much as some about WP:BLP, but you don't seem to have made enough effort since then to remedy this serious deficiency. Now efforts to enlighten you are met by your patronisingly referring to BLP as "seeming so important to Momento, Jossi and Rumiton" or words to that effect. According to Jim Wales, this is the most important guideline of Wikipedia. The language he uses to express its requirements is unprecedented. References to self-published sources, especially if derogatory, are to REMOVED IMMEDIATELY AND AGGRESSIVELY, not discussed on the Talk Page, not tagged with a [citation needed]. The more we say this, the more it gets ignored. Momento was acting entirely in accordance with WP rules in the deletions and reversions he made in this respect. He should never have been blocked for it. Rumiton (talk) 12:04, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I still request someone uninvolved to look into the information I provided. None of those commenting thus far in this thread (Jossi, Msalt, Momento, Rumiton and myself) are uninvolved. Of course they may comment too (I don't want to imply the contrary), it's still that I think that for getting this thing going anywhere some uninvolved eyes would be more than welcome.
Re. "I see here a major lack of appreciation for the requirements of Biographies of Living Persons":
- WP:BLPN#Prem Rawat might be an alternative to discuss that.
- The interpretation given by some to WP:BLP, and related guidance on sources, had degenerated into a travesty. The Prem Rawat article suffered as a consequence of that. It eventually led to Wikipedia getting bad press [19]. Many objections as I have to that press article, that doesn't blind my sight that a part of the external criticism was justified. Part of the problem is indeed a shamelessly negligent interpretation of WP:BLP. --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:06, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- shamelessly negligent interpretation of WP:BLP? Not from what I am reading from uninvolved editors that have commented on the subject on the different boards in which the subject was raised. You should not let a Wikipedia-bashing tabloid, that has many times in the past published misleading, and ridiculous material on Wikipedia, its editors, and its founder, to set the tone and substance of this debate. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:15, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- So, you still endorse the forum shopping in defense of Momento? Note that WP:ANI criticisms have been brought to Talk:Prem Rawat#By website and further discussed. Only one negative commentator at WP:ANI appeared uninvolved. The positive commentary by an uninvolved editor at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive370#Francis Schonken ("That's not a clearcut BLP violation" - "saying that we can't link to something because it contains OR is to radically misunderstand Wikipedia policy") has been carelessly neglected too. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Article probation - proposal
As the community knows, I've recused on editing Prem Rawat at this time, but one would expect that in this situation experienced contributors would know better. Should the editors there be encouraged to to engage in WP:DR in a constructive manner? It do not think it possible to make progress in improving the article in an environment in which edit-war is the rule of the day. I ask uninvolved admins to take a look, and assess if article probation may help restore some normalcy to the editing process there. I ask the community to consider article probation -- 1RR per day, or per week, NPA, and talk-page disruption probation for 30 days. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Evidence |
---|
A variety of SPAs, possible SPs, dormant accounts suddenly activated (some may be false positives)
|
- Oh, so that's what article probation means. I've been applied it recently, actually! El_C 16:14, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yes.... see Wikipedia:General sanctions. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:21, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'd support an indefinite probation. It can always be revisited later and changed if nothing else goes wrong. Lawrence § t/e 18:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Article probation would likely be very helpful in getting the situation in-line. Vassyana (talk) 04:46, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Bad idea, as far as I'm concerned.
- Jossi committed to not editing the article, which I appreciate. Then he tries to get hold of the article via proxy (...Momento, anons &c). Which I don't appreciate. Then we have to deal with the disruptive POV-pushers, like Momento. Jossi still wants to protect his favorite POV-pushers, which I don't appreciate. And he knows he won't hold it that way, so tries to get measures passed for a general restriction of all editors of the article, which I don't appreciate. He has tried a protection request before. But that would still not solve the fact that we have to deal with the disruptive editors like Momento. This is only what I can tell from my personal experience. The fact that I got little or no appreciation for jumping in to work out solutions on a topic I'm barely interested in, doesn't bother me. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Your accusations are unneeded and unwelcome here, Francis. You are now involved in that article, and would hope that you would appreciate ways to encourage orderly editing there, such as this proposal. Let uninvolved admins weigh in on this and evaluate the need or lack thereof for article probation. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:32, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- This is a counter-proposal to my proposal. You're too heavily involved in preventing edits to the article. That's all I wanted to say. --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- You can present evidence of that, if you have any, and make any other proposals. (and please do not refactor this page) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- This is a counterproposal to the above #Slightly disruptive editing of Momento (talk · contribs), so I propose to keep them together, not as separate sections. --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- You can present evidence of that, if you have any, and make any other proposals. (and please do not refactor this page) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- This is a counter-proposal to my proposal. You're too heavily involved in preventing edits to the article. That's all I wanted to say. --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Your accusations are unneeded and unwelcome here, Francis. You are now involved in that article, and would hope that you would appreciate ways to encourage orderly editing there, such as this proposal. Let uninvolved admins weigh in on this and evaluate the need or lack thereof for article probation. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:32, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Concur with Lawrence and Vassyana. Support article probation per evidence. – Steel 21:22, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Article probation is fine in some instances, but keeping an article in a sort of unmoving purgatory isn't exactly a good solution either. If the agreement is for probation of the article and that'll still help the information to grow, then that's fine. What would be ideal is if the involved parties would hold off and wait for uninvolved editors to weigh in first, and then a solution could certainly arise rather quickly. Jmlk17 21:21, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hmmm, as per the evidence, I believe the best course of action at this juncture would be probation. Jmlk17 21:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I protest, involved as I am in trying to get the article on the right track again, and humbly ask to have a look on my proposal above, which comes down to (more explicitly than I stated above) checking disruption, starting with the most disruptive long-term editors. So please take note of #Slightly disruptive editing of Momento.C2.A0.28talk.C2.A0.C2.B7 contribs.29. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:32, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what "talk-page disruption probation " is. How do we define "talk page disruption"? I'm also concerned that that list of involved editors is not complete, including Cirt, Francis Schonken, and Momento, but excluding Rumiton. Momento has edited disruptively by repeated reverting material claiming the BLP exception, so I'm concerned that he will not comply with a 1RR limit either. I think that rather than target specific editors it would be better to implement a strict 1RR limit on all editors of that article. And dispute resolution is always appropriate. Will Beback NS (talk) 00:20, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Neither did I speak of nor remotely suggest "talk-page disruption probation", nor do I know what it is supposed to mean. I suggested to get Momento in line with harmonious editing. With usual measures. Two times 24H block (as already happened in a short time span), if keeps disrupting, longer block, if never reforms, get him out of the system. He cost us enough time as it is. I'm hesitant to let myself, and other more generally constructive editors, be restricted on the same par as rather clearly uncollaborative editors. That's not what we should deserve.
- BTW, why do you use an alternate account? Or is that not unusual? --Francis Schonken (talk) 01:41, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- If Momento breaches 1RR, he will get dinged big time under probation. Dispute resolution was proposed, and there are no takers, Will. And, in any case, page probation will only assist in providing an orderly debate during dispute resolution. And yes, 1RR restrictions on all active editors is what this probation proposal is about. Talk page disruption is breaches of WP:NPA, and other such behaviors at the discretion of uninvolved admins. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:03, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I would argue that editors actively editing that article should allow uninvolved editors to assess if article probation is needed or not. So far, three four such editors have argued in support of that measure. Let others evaluate this without further comments from involved editors. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:02, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm involved, and for that reason said what I said. So I still invite not to look only at the list Jossi provided (and which doesn't say much when you're acquainted with the situation), but at least also have a look at the material I presented in the previous section #Slightly disruptive editing of Momento (talk · contribs), which takes a bit more time to read the stuff I referred to, but hopefully gives a clearer picture. --Francis Schonken (talk) 02:09, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Francis, you do not need article probation if there is one editor that is misbehaving. You may need article probation when there are 'multiple editors engaged in edit-wars, SPs, dormant accounts, personal attacks, and other such things. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Exactly, my experience (and I've been following the article quite closely for the last weeks) is that neither SPEs nor dormant accounts aren't all that much of a problem. You don't edit the article, so no worries there either. All the other editors balance more or less, without causing disruption, except Momento. I gave part of the evidence why I came to that conclusion above. I didn't want to bore anyone, but said I was prepared to give more. I don't think edit-warring is all that much of a real problem currently, and if so, I'd rather go back first to semi-protection, but even that seems uncalled for currently. The most acute problem is really one editor misbehaving quite somewhat more than the others. And I still hope Momento gets the gist of it, but the disruption he's causing has to stop, either with him behaving, or increasing periods without him. Really, I only speak about my personal experience, as an editor completely uninterested in the subject of the article (as said, I think the article's subject boring), but trying to make a high quality Wikipedia article on the subject nonetheless. --Francis Schonken (talk) 02:39, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps as a compromise, editors could be told that article probation is being considered, and that to avoid it becoming formal (with the attendant risk of admin action if it's not adhered to), they should stick as closely to 1RR as they can bear to (one revert per editor per week). And the article could be sprotected to avoid drive-by reverting. Then we could re-assess in a week to see whether it has helped, and if not, impose the probation. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 17:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- As said, I think sprotection uncalled for at this time. Maybe propose it at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection if you'd think it useful. 1RR/week would even be less fruitful as far as I can tell. The article is still undergoing needed changes, as part of the outside criticism levelled at it was to a certain degree justified. The process is dynamic, but apart from a single to my taste too pedantic editor, not disruptive (for comparison: I have the Fibonacci article on my watchlist for some time which is, for some reason unknown to me, favoured by anon trolls and vandals - at a certain time, after a period of several anon abuse per day I suggested sprotection, which was declined: by comparison the Prem Rawat article is currently relatively calm)
- The suggestion to notify editors about this discussion, is probably a good idea though, see Talk:Prem Rawat#Notification --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:52, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Things have cooled off a bit (maybe because of the possibility of probation was looming), although trolling and personal attacks have continued happening. If the situation deteriorates again to a point in which probation may be warranted, I will bring this again to AN for evaluation. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:19, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
In case you were not aware...
WMF has started receiving death threats in respect of the Muhammad images. As ever, this issue calls for weapons-grade tact: if, like me, you can't do tact, don't go near it, and we should be willing to consider rapid topic bans and blocking for any editor who inflames the situation. Guy (Help!) 11:54, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Tact, what the fuck is that, some sort of tang? Let those of us who are anonymous handle it, maybe? El_C 11:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Why don't we put Muhammad, Depictions of Muhammad, etc on article probation? MER-C 12:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think that is an excellent idea. Guy (Help!) 12:14, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- We all think its an excellent idea because we have no idea what article probation means! El_C 12:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- It means it's somebody else's problem! Mackensen (talk) 12:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hey, I'm someone else! El_C 12:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Have a cigar. Raymond Arritt (talk) 13:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hey, I'm someone else! El_C 12:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I've always found this remedy very entertaining, so I appreciate its being used again as I need a laugh today. It means that all admins are empowered to do exactly what they were always empowered to do, and everyone is warned off doing everything they were always warned off doing. It is used by the arbitration committee when it cannot think of an actual remedy, but they are certain that one must surely be applied. The fun bit is that people then go on to think that this will make some actual difference, particularly to new editors to the page who will no doubt go and read the committee's promulgations prior to hitting the edit button for the first time. Splash - tk 13:08, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, exactly that. It means that everybody does what they should do anyway and - the important bit - if they insist on doing something else, we stop them there and then rather than gazing at our collective navels for a month first. Guy (Help!) 13:56, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with probation in this case- it does encourage admins to step in earlier over the articles concerned perhaps, also I would say it discourages editors on the articles from acting daft to an extent, where things could get heated such as the Scientology articles it has encouraged people not to slag each other off I believe, to an extent. Merkinsmum 15:08, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's true that it might in theory cut out the shall we/shan't we in favour of "we shall", but although that's a nice theory, I'm not sure it's really ever made a dramatic difference when specified as a remedy. But I suppose it cannot hurt to try, as long as we don't accidentally think that mentally applying probation to it takes all the inflammation away just like that. Splash - tk 16:05, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, exactly that. It means that everybody does what they should do anyway and - the important bit - if they insist on doing something else, we stop them there and then rather than gazing at our collective navels for a month first. Guy (Help!) 13:56, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- It means it's somebody else's problem! Mackensen (talk) 12:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- We all think its an excellent idea because we have no idea what article probation means! El_C 12:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think that is an excellent idea. Guy (Help!) 12:14, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- It is really important to keep from inflaming the situation where you can. Please consider protections, kind warnings and blanking of trolling, baiting and inflammatory posts rather than being quick on the block button. WilyD 15:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that content-focused action (i.e. protection) is probably better for both PR and drama coefficient here. But we also need to make sure that the "not censored" evangelists don't make matters worse; it is important to display sensitivity towards the concerns expressed, as several people have done very well during this dispute. Guy (Help!) 16:55, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'd recommend everyone have a quick look at the mailing list, where Jimbo is laying down the law about how we think about the matter quite effectively, along the lines Guy suggests above. He correctly says that we have to find some moderation here. An interesting suggestion has been proposed that involves clickable drop-down images. Relata refero (talk) 17:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I haven't been around much nor have I been following the debate but has anyone suggested putting them in one of those windowshade (hide/show) boxes we love (it seems they are at the bottom of every other article)? Keeps the images there but shows sensitivity towards 1/6th of the Earth's population. spryde | talk 20:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- What about spinning them off into a separate article, Images of Mohammed, with a warning link on the main page? Corvus cornixtalk 21:20, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not censored and does not do disclaimers. We need to stay strong to maintain free speech. Stifle (talk) 21:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- The article Depictions of Muhammad already exists, to discuss - depictions of Muhammad. But the sort of thought around is that removing them from Muhammad where they're of clear (although somewhat debated) encyclopaedic value is still problematic under the goals of uncensored & unbiased encyclopaedia. WilyD 21:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, it was jut a suggestion, I didn't even notice that the Depictions article was already discussed above. :) Corvus cornixtalk 22:00, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I've favored hiding controversial images in some manner like that for years. I've never really understood why some of us feel we should insist on automatic presentation of the images. They should be available but hidden in such a manner that a person can choose whether or not to view them. Everyking (talk) 22:39, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- 1/6 the world's population is not seriously offended by these images. Many Muslims don't even have a prohibition against images of Muhammad, and of the ones who do, most are not so extremist so as to demand censorship for their benefit. We're dealing with a much smaller number of people than 1 billion. Don't be so quick to assume that all Muslims are crazy radicals. --Cyde Weys 04:08, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- What about spinning them off into a separate article, Images of Mohammed, with a warning link on the main page? Corvus cornixtalk 21:20, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I haven't been around much nor have I been following the debate but has anyone suggested putting them in one of those windowshade (hide/show) boxes we love (it seems they are at the bottom of every other article)? Keeps the images there but shows sensitivity towards 1/6th of the Earth's population. spryde | talk 20:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'd recommend everyone have a quick look at the mailing list, where Jimbo is laying down the law about how we think about the matter quite effectively, along the lines Guy suggests above. He correctly says that we have to find some moderation here. An interesting suggestion has been proposed that involves clickable drop-down images. Relata refero (talk) 17:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that content-focused action (i.e. protection) is probably better for both PR and drama coefficient here. But we also need to make sure that the "not censored" evangelists don't make matters worse; it is important to display sensitivity towards the concerns expressed, as several people have done very well during this dispute. Guy (Help!) 16:55, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Does anyone really believe that after we hide the images on Muhammad, they won't demand the same of "Depictions of Muhammad" and any other page which has an image of Muhammad (at first count some twenty articles, perhaps more)? We should not support censorship in any way, and hiding the images by default is a (weak) form of censorship; a preferring of the demands of one religious group over the neutral, open, free speech basics of Wikipedia. Fram (talk) 08:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I personally have not seen much at the Commons about the images, but I did notice we are getting messages on unrelated boards about these images. I and another user dealt with it on the image copyright help board today. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 09:01, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- The demands will never stop. So what's so hard about putting a warning in at the top as discussed and used in the Bahá'u'lláh article? (If that link fails, the Bahai founder dude). Then just make a shadow article called Muhammed (no images) or the like, and don't transclude the offending images. Then Wikipedia is neither censored nor offending for those faithful who wish to view the information sans-images. Bob's yer uncle. Franamax (talk) 09:16, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I was about to suggest that Franamax. I know in MSIE there is a feature to turn off images, if thats a universal feature that can be enabled via hyperlink (or emmulated), that could work. MBisanz talk 09:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- But turn-off-images is a bad solution. There's two factors here: one is that WP is not censored and the articles draw on all available sources; the other is that people of the Muslim faith also use Wikipedia to seek out information about Muhammed and some subset of them will be offended by images portraying Muhammed. What I am suggesting is a shadow page where those two images just don't show up, and that's the only difference. We get our thing, the believers get a page to view that has images on it, just not images offensive to the viewers. It can't be that hard to construct. Franamax (talk) 09:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's actually not hard at all: here's the Fmax-Muhammed, which points to the Fmax-Muhammed (no images). Did I miss something (other than being sloppy)? Of course, if someone wants to contribute to en:wiki, they have to buy in to the whole scene. And this doesn't open a big door, perhaps Howard Hughes would want the same treatment. Franamax (talk) 10:03, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Are edits to one page automatically made to the other page as well? Fram (talk) 10:07, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's a transclusion so I imagine so, try in my test pages, or wait for five and check live, I'm being WP:BOLD :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Franamax (talk • contribs) 10:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC) Damn that SineBot :) Franamax (talk) 10:24, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Proposed changes made to the live database. Revert at will! Franamax (talk) 10:32, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Nice! Personally, I would prefer not to change anything under pressure of petitions or other religious demands, but if consensus is that some compromise is better than no change at all, then this is so far the best solution IMO. (you did miss one image though, Image:Mohammed kaaba 1315.jpg). Fram (talk) 10:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, we haven't changed anything at all, have we? All that's changed is that I've created my first mainspace article and made some minor edits to another. I'm firmly on the in-your-face side except when it's easy to make an accomodation. Oh hey, thanks for leaving me to noinclude the additional image you spotted! Let me handle the neo-nazis gathering in the street! :) Franamax (talk) 11:46, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Nice! Personally, I would prefer not to change anything under pressure of petitions or other religious demands, but if consensus is that some compromise is better than no change at all, then this is so far the best solution IMO. (you did miss one image though, Image:Mohammed kaaba 1315.jpg). Fram (talk) 10:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Are edits to one page automatically made to the other page as well? Fram (talk) 10:07, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I was about to suggest that Franamax. I know in MSIE there is a feature to turn off images, if thats a universal feature that can be enabled via hyperlink (or emmulated), that could work. MBisanz talk 09:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hehe, and there was me playing around with the Image blacklist when
<noinclude>
tags would work just as well!! Happy‑melon 10:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I appreciate the effort at dealing with this, and no offense, but this is a god-awful idea. WP:CENSOR is not a guideline or a suggestion; it is policy. This is an end-around of official policy to stem what is largely a movement of vandals and off-wiki petitioning, and would set a terrible precedent if allowed to remain. Tarc (talk) 14:45, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Fork with no images, and AFD
Muhammad (no images); Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Muhammad (no images). Lawrence § t/e 14:54, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I was about to come here and add the link - I can understand that the article was created with good intentions but it's a terrible idea and will not provide any solution - the problem has never been where the images are placed, it's that they exist on this site at all. In addition, where do we stop? a G-D article? Penis article with no pictures? Maybe a F**k article? --Fredrick day (talk) 15:33, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Given the circumstances, a strong mandate coming out of the AfD is invaluable - let it run its course. WilyD 16:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- It is just a hornet's nest, so I deleted it again. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 23:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- It was an OBVIOUS Snow close. Jmlk17 23:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Aye. Nothing good was going to come out of that. The AfD doesn't need to extend the drama for five days. Black Kite 23:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- It was an OBVIOUS Snow close. Jmlk17 23:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- It is just a hornet's nest, so I deleted it again. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 23:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Technical solution?
Wikipedia does have numerous images that some may find offensive, naturally, and there will always be people that will want them removed for whatever reason. Either because it offends their religious sensibilities, or becuase they don't want to see pictures of genetalia, etc. Personally, I very strongly oppose any kind of opt-in solution that forces such images hidden unless the reader chooses to view them. However, what about the other way around? Could a preferences option be created that would allow a user, at their own discretion, auto-hide images that are flagged as potentially offensive? Something along the lines of MediaWiki:Bad image list. I don't want my encyclopedia censored, but if other individuals do, then give them the option. Resolute 15:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ummm, that was actually the kind of opt-out solution I had in mind, from the Muhammed article, you had the choice to click to an alternate which was a tranclusion which specifically excluded things. As a transclusion, it was amenable to full page-protection, thus fully controlled from the master page. I'm not sure everyone who !voted there looked at the page source, but I certainly wasn't trying to create a fork. The same thing applies to Bahá'u'lláh, it's great that there's a warning that there are images of the person there, but that really just amounts to a warning to stay away (for the faithful). We need to come up with a way to make our NPOV and complete information available to all people. There's no need to fork anything. Slippery slope be damned, what's wrong with some selective creativity? And come to that, if we can have a redirect from Pneis to Penis, why not have a transclude to Penis (no images)? What are we taking away from those who want to see images of prophets or penises? They can always choose to not click on the alternate link. Franamax (talk) 16:22, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Problem being that content forking is greatly opposed, as we've seen in that AfD. What I was hoping for was a preferences option that would allow individual users to decide if they want to hide images that fall into an objectionable category without forking the article. Unfortunately, as WilyD notes below, this does not seem to be possible yet, though it is mentioned specifically on Wikipedia:Options to not see an image as something that could be written by someone who understands MediaWiki. Resolute 16:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- See, I don't understand where the "fork" part comes in, when actually it was a "mask". It's already there <includeonly>, <onlyinclude>, nothing was being split, nothing would diverge in future. It's just a selective view, kind of like those show/hide boxes. What is so awful about that? Franamax (talk) 16:37, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Problem being that content forking is greatly opposed, as we've seen in that AfD. What I was hoping for was a preferences option that would allow individual users to decide if they want to hide images that fall into an objectionable category without forking the article. Unfortunately, as WilyD notes below, this does not seem to be possible yet, though it is mentioned specifically on Wikipedia:Options to not see an image as something that could be written by someone who understands MediaWiki. Resolute 16:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Known technical solutions are discussed at Wikipedia:Options to not see an image, but they only work on a page by page basis or more coarsely, nobody seems to know how to do specific images. WilyD 16:24, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- As someone who has seen a lot of innocent sounding censorship I am deeply opposed to this. LGBT people have seen vast swaths of their culture and history vanish under the concept of think of the children. If a website had the world "gay" anywhere on it - gone! Once we start sledding down this slippery slope what other images and articles will be rated XXX? I'm a bit offended by seeing opposite sex couples being affectionate shouldn't all those images be hidden until I click? I appreciate the concerns but I caution against any quick tech fixes for culture wars. Benjiboi 17:43, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Exactly what would be considered "potentially offensive" is a really important thing to figure out before we enable something like this in preferences. But, and I could be misunderstanding this, it sounds like one would have to change their preferences to not see the images. That is, anyone who did not perform this specific action would see all images in all articles. Natalie (talk) 23:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- As someone who has seen a lot of innocent sounding censorship I am deeply opposed to this. LGBT people have seen vast swaths of their culture and history vanish under the concept of think of the children. If a website had the world "gay" anywhere on it - gone! Once we start sledding down this slippery slope what other images and articles will be rated XXX? I'm a bit offended by seeing opposite sex couples being affectionate shouldn't all those images be hidden until I click? I appreciate the concerns but I caution against any quick tech fixes for culture wars. Benjiboi 17:43, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
JdeJ
I was given a warning by this editor that I feel was unwarranted.
I referred to one of his edits as being racially motivated.
I would like a non-western editor to review the edits I made and give an opinion as to whether his automatic reversion of my contribution, without discussion, could or could not be explained as racially motivated.
I am aware that using such a word can be inflammatory, but I feel that in this instance it was accurate.
I would also like to point out that he has labeled me as abusive and disruptive. I take offense to that. Zaq1qaz (talk) 00:05, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- You called this edit was removing "racially biased POV". I think it speaks for itself. Making bold changes is fine; however, when you are reverted and asked to discuss it on the talk page you should probably do so instead of claiming other editors are biased. Name-calling isn't nice. --Haemo (talk) 02:14, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- No, I call this edit [20] biased.
- I also object to big .jpg's placed on my talk page without discussion, warning, or any recourse. The Warning was placed with the comment that it was my last warning. Can anyone put a picture of a stop sign on any page and say "you've been warned, the next time I'll block you" or words to that effect? There's no recourse, no notification or board postings about that?
- I think this editor's refusal to discuss the reversion he made speaks volumes about him. He never discussed his reversion, his reasons for his reversion on any talk page. I tried to discuss the matter with him on HIS talk page and he ignored it while making snide posts on MY talk page.Zaq1qaz (talk) 03:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Object all you want. This is the way things work. He doesn't have to respond to you. You can remove the warning if you want. Everyone is allowed to post warning templates. His next step would be to post to WP:AIV and if an admin decided that it was appropriate, you would be blocked. If you want to complain that his edit was biased, give him a warning as well. Then you can move to WP:AIV. An admin will decide what to do. From your talk page, you seem to be having a discussion about it now. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:46, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
As an admin, I vehemently disagree with Ricky's proposed solution. Instead of escalating the dispute in this way, the better course of action is to DE-escalate by using the article talk page and working out your differences there. If that doesn't work, there are almost a dozen options availible to find outside help to resolve the dispute, all can be found at Dispute resolution. Don't be eager to take revenge or escalate to the point of sanctions. Instead, de-escalate by attempting to work civily, even with those you disagree with, and attempt to reach common ground on the article talk page. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- It is true that I have warned Zaq1qaz, based on this edit summary [21] that I feel is very unsuitable and violates both WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. It wasn't the first time the user attacked other users in his edit summaries.[22] As for his accusation that my edit was "racially motivated", I invite everyone to have a look at the edit I reverted [23]. I doubt anyone can find anything even remotely "racially motivated" in reverting it, all I found was a lot of WP:OR, WP:WEASEL and WP:POV. JdeJ (talk) 07:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- User JdeJ continues to refuse to discuss the contributions I have made to the article. Is there some Wikipedia (WP:WEASEL?) policy that addresses an editor who deletes without discussion something that at least two other editors feel is on point?
- Also, isn't the deletion of statements contrary to ANYONE's viewpoint, against WP:POV? Why is HIS POV the correct one?Zaq1qaz (talk) 13:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, no point of view is preferred to a contested one. If an addition to an article is contested, standard practice is to leave it out of the article until consensus is reached to re-add it to the article via productive talk-page discussion. The conservative approach is that any contested additions remain OUT of the article until and unless consensus exists to put them back in. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:49, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Also, isn't the deletion of statements contrary to ANYONE's viewpoint, against WP:POV? Why is HIS POV the correct one?Zaq1qaz (talk) 13:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I haven't refused to discuss anything. On the contrary, I've pointed out many times already that you should source your claims. It's true that I'm not very interested in a long discussion without any sources, for the simple reason that neither you nor I can claim any authority, but I'll gladly discuss any source provided. The problem with your edits have been that you have introduced very controversial views, in direct conflict with many other Wikipedia articles and with the established view. In itself, that is no problem. It becomes a problem once you're neither able to provide any reason for them nor can back them up with any sources. You have been asked to do so by other contributors as well, but to date your record is to introduce very controversial changes without sourcing them, attacking me when I revert them and then start a long discussion about why it's wrong to revert you but still without any sources to show that you're right. As you're new to Wikipedia, I guess it's just because you're not familiar with the procedures. This isn't any typical discussion forum, we put some value on sources and verifiable facts, not discussions about each other. Cheers JdeJ (talk) 08:39, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Do I get in trouble for calling you a liar?
- I have posts on my Talk page, on your Talk page, and on the Europe Talk page, all attempting to discuss this matter. The only person NOT talking about the subject, is you. You disseminate and deflect the attempts to WEASEL posts. Discuss the subject, look at my references. Let's resolve your problems with the material and this issue.Zaq1qaz (talk) 22:45, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Is it valid to semiprotect an IP talk page to keep the IP from removing warnings?
See User talk:75.47.140.0 and User talk:Rschen7754#User talk:75.47.140.0 - it's my understanding that this shouldn't be done, but I may be wrong. --NE2 04:22, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- My interpretation is that this should only be done on a case by case basis and is not the guaranteed right of the administrator. --Rschen7754 (T C) 04:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Please allow me to jump in, but I'm sure NE2 was asking someone else out there on the noticeboard. ^_^ AL2TB ^_^ 04:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I have a right to defend my actions... --Rschen7754 (T C) 04:46, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I wouldn't do it. The only situation I can think of where it's necessary to prevent an editor from editing their own talk page is if they're blocked and abusing the unblock template. Most of us ought to know that a warning-free talk page does not mean a clean editing record, and the warnings are still in the history, so there's not that much reason to insist that they remain visible. It could look a little vindictive, to be honest. -- Vary | Talk 04:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- However, when deciding whether to block or not, the administrator frequently does not look at the history - neither do the bots. --Rschen7754 (T C) 04:46, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Bots don't block and administrators damn well should be looking at editors' histories before blocking them. --ElKevbo (talk) 04:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Bots report people to be blocked. Also, in regards to AIV, the editor will never report the vandal to AIV if there is only a test2 template, even if the vandal removed 30 other templates. Finally, all an experienced IP vandal has to do is keep removing the vandal warnings, and then they would escape detection for a long time. --Rschen7754 (T C) 04:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Not if people check the talk page history. I don't know how the bots determine what warnings to leave and when to report, so I can't speak on that, but I do know that checking the current revision of their talk page for visible warnings is not the best way to figure out an editor's recent history. Flesh and blood editors at least should not be relying on an admin to prevent an editor from removing warnings so they won't have to spend a few extra seconds checking out the talk page history. If you're concerned that the editor is going to 'escape detection' by removing one first-level warning, I'd think that watchlisting the talk page and keeping an eye on it would be a less bitey way to handle the situation. -- Vary | Talk 05:18, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- However, I do not stay on the computer 24/7 - I have to sleep and go to class and stuff. --Rschen7754 (T C) 05:21, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- So deal with it when you get back. How much damage do you think one IP can do in twelve hours without someone taking notice, blanked warnings or no? -- Vary | Talk 05:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Quite a bit. --Rschen7754 (T C) 05:31, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- You shouldn't be blocking anyone if you aren't prepared to look at the talk page history each and every time. Frankly, I'm finding this conversation more than a little unsettling. Sarah 05:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Quite a bit. --Rschen7754 (T C) 05:31, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- So deal with it when you get back. How much damage do you think one IP can do in twelve hours without someone taking notice, blanked warnings or no? -- Vary | Talk 05:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- However, I do not stay on the computer 24/7 - I have to sleep and go to class and stuff. --Rschen7754 (T C) 05:21, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Not if people check the talk page history. I don't know how the bots determine what warnings to leave and when to report, so I can't speak on that, but I do know that checking the current revision of their talk page for visible warnings is not the best way to figure out an editor's recent history. Flesh and blood editors at least should not be relying on an admin to prevent an editor from removing warnings so they won't have to spend a few extra seconds checking out the talk page history. If you're concerned that the editor is going to 'escape detection' by removing one first-level warning, I'd think that watchlisting the talk page and keeping an eye on it would be a less bitey way to handle the situation. -- Vary | Talk 05:18, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Bots report people to be blocked. Also, in regards to AIV, the editor will never report the vandal to AIV if there is only a test2 template, even if the vandal removed 30 other templates. Finally, all an experienced IP vandal has to do is keep removing the vandal warnings, and then they would escape detection for a long time. --Rschen7754 (T C) 04:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Bots don't block and administrators damn well should be looking at editors' histories before blocking them. --ElKevbo (talk) 04:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- However, when deciding whether to block or not, the administrator frequently does not look at the history - neither do the bots. --Rschen7754 (T C) 04:46, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Please allow me to jump in, but I'm sure NE2 was asking someone else out there on the noticeboard. ^_^ AL2TB ^_^ 04:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- (in rs) Unsettling? I find this potential for vandal abuse unsettling. --Rschen7754 (T C) 05:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
For the record, this wasn't even a vandalism warning; the IP blanked a talk page that was simply a redirect to another because he thought the non-talk title should redirect to a different place. --NE2 05:23, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- That wasn't my call - however, the IP has been making disruptive edits anyway. --Rschen7754 (T C) 05:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Not sure if this makes a difference, but the IP removed the warning with the summary "No Legal Threats"... —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 05:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I thoroughly endorse Yamamoto's unprotection of the talk page. I actually went there to do it myself. Sarah 05:54, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- [24] --Rschen7754 (T C) 06:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- What's your point? I don't get what you're trying to say by posting a diff of someone restoring a message in reply to my endorsement of the unprotection. I don't really care if IPs are allowed or not allowed to remove messages but I do care that you seem to think it's a-okay and acceptable practice to go about blocking blind. If you don't have time to check talk histories or just can't be stuffed, leave the blocks to someone else. There are plenty of times when talk pages are very misleading and I find the idea of you going about blindly making blocks without checking the account properly very disturbing. Sarah 06:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- In this instance, the error would reside in not blocking the IP - so you can't say that the user would be blocked unfairly. --Rschen7754 (T C) 06:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- What's your point? I don't get what you're trying to say by posting a diff of someone restoring a message in reply to my endorsement of the unprotection. I don't really care if IPs are allowed or not allowed to remove messages but I do care that you seem to think it's a-okay and acceptable practice to go about blocking blind. If you don't have time to check talk histories or just can't be stuffed, leave the blocks to someone else. There are plenty of times when talk pages are very misleading and I find the idea of you going about blindly making blocks without checking the account properly very disturbing. Sarah 06:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- [24] --Rschen7754 (T C) 06:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
IP's don't fall under Wikipedia:User page, page trolling and blanking on anon IP talk pages is Not acceptable and is vandalism.--Hu12 (talk) 06:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Says who? --NE2 06:16, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- So AOL or any other SHARED IP are treated the same under WP:USER, don't think so. We block shared and multiple user accounts, you can't assure against ths IP being a different individual in a month, can you? Wikipedia offers wide latitude to "users" to manage their user space as they see fit such as delete warnings. However, pages in user space still do belong to the community, IP's are not considered userpages. If they are, Where?--Hu12 (talk) 06:32, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- IP addresses are just like other users in the sense that they have every right to edit an article that any normal registered user can (with exceptions in the technical regard). Wikipedia:User page says "Wikipedia provides user pages to facilitate communication among participants in its project to build an encyclopedia" (emphasis partly mine). IPs are participants as much as any normal registered user, so blanking of a talk page is commonly accepted and should not be reverted or classed as vandalism. Not all IPs are vandals. Spebi 06:17, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Agree that there is a person editing behind the IP and he/she deserves all the consideration and respect as any other user, however IP's are not userpages, nor are they given the latitude under WP:USER. Blanking or trolling of a shared/dynamic/proxy/TOR/ect IP talk page is vandalism.--Hu12 (talk) 06:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm slightly confused here. I'm not particularly sure what the situation is here, but I am sure that any user, registered or not, is allowed to blank their own talk page to remove warnings. What do you mean by "however IP's are not userpages"? Spebi 06:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- A user page is devoted to exactly one person. An IP page refers to anyone using that IP, which may well be many people, not just one. I may have the right to blank "my" user page; I don't have the right to blank one I share with others. - Nunh-huh 11:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Messages on talk pages are intended for just one user - the one who receives the orange message bar. If the message is intended for them and they have read it then they can remove it. If the message isn't intended for them they can remove it too because no one else is going to get the orange message bar. -- zzuuzz (talk) 12:12, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Removing a message and blanking are two different things. An IP page and a user page are two different things. - Nunh-huh 12:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Blanking and removing a warning are exactly the same thing if the only message on a Talk page is a warning, which was the case here. And your assertion that "an IP page and a user page are two different things" is laughably false.
- I tire once again of editors, particularly administrators who should know better, treating anonymous editors as second-class citizens in this project. --ElKevbo (talk) 13:23, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, Nunh-huh is correct; IP address users are not allowed to blank their talk pages, only registered users. I'm not sure where that's written down,--or if it is at all, rather than being standard practice only--as I was told by Snowolf. · AndonicO Hail! 13:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Removing a message and blanking are two different things. An IP page and a user page are two different things. - Nunh-huh 12:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Messages on talk pages are intended for just one user - the one who receives the orange message bar. If the message is intended for them and they have read it then they can remove it. If the message isn't intended for them they can remove it too because no one else is going to get the orange message bar. -- zzuuzz (talk) 12:12, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- A user page is devoted to exactly one person. An IP page refers to anyone using that IP, which may well be many people, not just one. I may have the right to blank "my" user page; I don't have the right to blank one I share with others. - Nunh-huh 11:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm slightly confused here. I'm not particularly sure what the situation is here, but I am sure that any user, registered or not, is allowed to blank their own talk page to remove warnings. What do you mean by "however IP's are not userpages"? Spebi 06:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Agree that there is a person editing behind the IP and he/she deserves all the consideration and respect as any other user, however IP's are not userpages, nor are they given the latitude under WP:USER. Blanking or trolling of a shared/dynamic/proxy/TOR/ect IP talk page is vandalism.--Hu12 (talk) 06:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I've just semiprotected this IP talkpage for the length of their block, (for somewhat obvious reasons) and I'd also do it for abuse of unblock, but that's about it I think. Black Kite 07:03, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- If a person is abusing their talk page while blocked, then the page should be fully protected for the duration of the block. Black Kite's protection meets that sandard. When the block expires, the page should be unprotected. If a person (IP or username) is not blocked, their talk page should not be protected. In any case, removing warnings is not abusive, it is perfectly acceptable, even if it leaves the page blank. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:31, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- These things have to be handled on a case-by-case basis. The idea behind allowing users to control their own talk pages is that we don't want to humiliate people by forcing them to edit with warnings on their talk pages, as though we've forced them into the stocks and are throwing rotten tomatoes at them. So generally, if someone removes a warning, we know they've seen it, and that's the end of it. However, there are situations where the behavior of a user is particularly egregious and we have reason to believe that an administrator may shortly need to see the warnings — for example, during a block that might be contested, or where the behavior has been repeated — and then I would say it's valid to protect or semi-protect the page to stop the warnings from being removed. This applies whether it's an anon or an account, though the more established the editor, the more we should assume good faith. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 13:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, I think the opposite is true. IP users and new users are the ones who benefit the most from an assumption of good faith. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:49, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- There's no opposite. Case-by-case basis is sound. Be flexible, use common sense, and do not invoke rules for the sakes of following rules, blindly. (I suppose that in your case, CBM, I may be arguing for naught, but still, perhaps you'll pick up on it — it's possible) El_C 14:06, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Case by case makes sense, but nobody should be edit warring over IP talk pages, that's just silly. Instead, make sure that any warnings given (including the level and page affected) are also in the edit summary so that others can quickly look and assess the situation. R. Baley (talk) 03:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- There's no opposite. Case-by-case basis is sound. Be flexible, use common sense, and do not invoke rules for the sakes of following rules, blindly. (I suppose that in your case, CBM, I may be arguing for naught, but still, perhaps you'll pick up on it — it's possible) El_C 14:06, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, I think the opposite is true. IP users and new users are the ones who benefit the most from an assumption of good faith. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:49, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
User:Rschen7754/Problems with Wikipedia --NE2 02:23, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- That is not relevant to this discussion alone. --Rschen7754 (T C) 03:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't understand any of this. The only case I've seen where blocking an IP solely because the IP was editing the IP's user talkspace is for materially refactoring others' comments. Blocking IPs for simply removing warnings is nutty. It's all in the page history and ought to be in the edit summaries, if it's not in the edit summaries, oh well, those were kinda pointless warnings now weren't they, would've been just as well not to have left them.--Doug.(talk • contribs) 19:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- The IP wasn't blocked: the associated talk page was semi-protected to prevent the editor from re-removing a first-level 'test' warning. All the talk about blocking comes from the protecting admin's justification for the protection: that other admins, when deciding whether or not to block the IP, might not check the page's history and see the warnings, and thus would get a skewed view of the IP's history. -- Vary | Talk 21:41, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Why is Wikileaks still on the front page? It's a totally trivial news story which shouldn't have got there at all. Given its total lack of importance and significance (compare it with the other candidates). Take a look at the discussions on the candidate page - Wikipedia:ITN/C#Wikileaks. Apparently, it was added due to "consensus" on the WP:ITN/C page - Template talk:In_the_news#Wikilinks, but that page shows that no, this is not a worthy candidate. Please can an admin right this. - hahnchen 19:21, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Please bring this up on the appropriate page, which this is not. Wikipedia:ITN/C#Wikileaks. Lawrence § t/e 20:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
It was obvious that this was the correct venue. Given that the story had been opposed on the correct venue and nothing had been done about it. It was poor form to archive this so early, although the story has now been removed. - hahnchen 14:20, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- If you feel the fundamental issues of the discussion are still unresolved (an issue I will make no comment on), and that the archiving was, in your opinion, inappropriate, then you should probably go ahead, be bold and remove {{archive top}} and {{archive bottom}}.
- On the other hand, you may wish to open a new thread, either on this Noticeboard, or through an alternative medium of discussion. Either way, if there is benefit to be had from further discussion, then an archive banner should, by no means, stand in said discussions' way. Regards, AGK (talk) 18:41, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Note that the wikileaks article was hit pretty badly by a banned editor (about as banned as they get). Anyone who's editing, please consider carefully before reverting my edits. Banned editors do not have a right to edit WP, especially not that one - Alison ❤ 21:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Mass-spamming by User:John Carter and User:Betacommandbot
The Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion/Interfaith work group, with three signed-up active members, have taken it up themselves to use Betacommandbot to spam thousands of articles (3096, beta says [25]) with their large banner on the talk page, where it is always placed above all other project tags, including GA & FA ones (eg Talk:Paul the Apostle). A good percentage of these articles have nothing to do with religion in any sense (eg Regeneration (Doctor Who), and for those that do this banner will be a useless and unwelcome addition to the vast majority, which are mostly already tagged by more specific projects. In the hour since the spree began, I am far from the only person to object at both the Project [26] and at Beta's talk page (where protesters are referred to John Carter, in the usual 5 minutes before beta delets them): [27], [28] (multiple comments each diff). Is there any way this spam can be reversed? Johnbod (talk) 19:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I watched it go by on my watchlist (Otto von Bismarck and Benjamin Disraeli). I don't see how either article would fall within their mandate, and I'd love to know what criteria were used. Mackensen (talk) 19:56, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- That's easy - Disraeli is in Category:Converts from Judaism to Anglicanism and Bismark in Category:Anti-Catholicism! Johnbod (talk) 19:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- (ec) I too noticed this. Celestial spheres? This is entirely too indiscriminate. Deor (talk) 19:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- (ec)Talk:Aliens Act 1905 was where I noticed it, the link is very loose in my opinion. (Oh and your edit is fine Johnbod). Woody (talk) 20:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I've tried to contact Betacommand on IRC. Some of the articles tagged are really irrelevant, unless I've missed something - Steve McQueen?! I haven't blocked the bot, because it's stopped, but this doesn't look completely helpful. Black Kite 20:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Steve is in Category:Converts to Christianity. Johnbod (talk) 20:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Illustrates the point, then. The templates should really only be on articles where the subject is the main, or a major, focus. Black Kite 20:16, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Steve is in Category:Converts to Christianity. Johnbod (talk) 20:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- (third ec) Considering the effort several of us put into cleaning up talk pages of FAs when {{articlehistory}} was added, it would be nice if people tagging talk pages would look for {{WikiProjectBanners}} or {{WikiProjectBannerShell}} and add their tags within the banner shell. Not doing so is just rude. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Isn't convention that they go under articlehistory as well. Woody (talk) 20:01, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- That's where I put them, but that may fall under preference of regular article editors. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Betacommandbot does thousands of useful edit...blah..blah..important function...blah..blah.....sanction...blah..blah.....can't sanction..need a sub-page to discuss this......blah..blah..no action needed...drastic action again. Well I think that covers all of the conversation - anyone else for a ride on the merry-go-around ? Sure it plays the same old tunes but we love them. (Note: I wouldn't want people to think I'm making light of the problem highlighted here - just a general sense of frustration at constantly seeing those issues come around and around and around). --Fredrick day (talk) 20:02, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- If Betacommand would revert the false edits, there wouldn't be much of a problem, but he/she hasn't in this case and didn't either in the past.--Carabinieri (talk) 20:07, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- This isn't really a BetaCommandBot issue. Black Kite 20:22, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Betacommandbot does thousands of useful edit...blah..blah..important function...blah..blah.....sanction...blah..blah.....can't sanction..need a sub-page to discuss this......blah..blah..no action needed...drastic action again. Well I think that covers all of the conversation - anyone else for a ride on the merry-go-around ? Sure it plays the same old tunes but we love them. (Note: I wouldn't want people to think I'm making light of the problem highlighted here - just a general sense of frustration at constantly seeing those issues come around and around and around). --Fredrick day (talk) 20:02, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- A quick look here [29] and here [30] will show why this was being done. I have tried to discuss this with John Carter here [31]. There is a definite problem here that needs to be addressed and a consensus reached as soon as possible. MarnetteD | Talk 20:06, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I very much question the almost judgemental failure to AGF of the originator of this thread. I believe that the two articles mentioned above included in the category Category:Interfaith topics or one of its subcategories. Specifically, Bismark was involved in Anti-Catholicism, and is actually categorized on that basis. Disraeli was a religious convert. The categories for converts and religious discrimination are basically the reason the group was initially created. It is unfortunate that the banner hadn't been adjusted earlier to include parameters for the group, but I take some time for me to learn things. The initial reason for the formation of the group was a rather heated discussion regarding Bob Dylan's conversion to Christianity, and one since banned editor's efforts to even delete articles on the basis of mention of the matter, because the conversion didn't meet certain regular guidelines. Unfortunately, the group he converted to doesn't keep records of baptisms, so the definite proof being sought was absent. Unfortunately, as we all know, there are often heated discussions regarding conversions and persecutions, and it is often the case that articles dealing with these matters provoke high emotion. The purpose of this group, even more than the other religion groups, is to gather together individuals so that the content regarding these matters can be rationally discussed. Granted, it isn't necessarily the case that each and every article will ever rise to the level of heat regarding Dylan, but such unfortunate misrepresentations or overrepresentations are far from uncommon in such subjects, often even, perhaps unknowingly, making inaccurate judgemental statements regarding one or the other "sides".
I also note that the originator of this thread first contacted me regarding the Doctor Who article, seemingly one of the few he is directly involved in, which was placed by someone else in the Category:Reincarnation, as was already explained to him, and that category falls as a subcat of Category:Interfaith topics. And, as stated, that was already explained to him. I am in the process of going through the articles to see which if any do not belong either within the scope of the group, or in the categories in which they were placed, again, as was already explained to the originator of this thread. If the categories and banners are irrelevant, then I will try to ensure that they are placed in more appropriate categories or have the faulty categories, and banner, removed outright.John Carter (talk) 20:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I very much question the almost judgemental failure to AGF of the originator of this thread. I believe that the two articles mentioned above included in the category Category:Interfaith topics or one of its subcategories. Specifically, Bismark was involved in Anti-Catholicism, and is actually categorized on that basis. Disraeli was a religious convert. The categories for converts and religious discrimination are basically the reason the group was initially created. It is unfortunate that the banner hadn't been adjusted earlier to include parameters for the group, but I take some time for me to learn things. The initial reason for the formation of the group was a rather heated discussion regarding Bob Dylan's conversion to Christianity, and one since banned editor's efforts to even delete articles on the basis of mention of the matter, because the conversion didn't meet certain regular guidelines. Unfortunately, the group he converted to doesn't keep records of baptisms, so the definite proof being sought was absent. Unfortunately, as we all know, there are often heated discussions regarding conversions and persecutions, and it is often the case that articles dealing with these matters provoke high emotion. The purpose of this group, even more than the other religion groups, is to gather together individuals so that the content regarding these matters can be rationally discussed. Granted, it isn't necessarily the case that each and every article will ever rise to the level of heat regarding Dylan, but such unfortunate misrepresentations or overrepresentations are far from uncommon in such subjects, often even, perhaps unknowingly, making inaccurate judgemental statements regarding one or the other "sides".
- I imagine any concerns about my good faith will have been dispelled by this reply. What exactly are the three of you in the group hoping to do with the thousands of articles you have now taken under your wing, which go way beyond the parameters you mention. How on earth are even going to be able to assess "if the categories and banners are irrelevant", and did you actually look at what was in Category:Interfaith topics and the other 100-odd categories at Wikipedia:BOTREQ#Bot tagging request before ordering the spamming? You have tagged the whole of Category:Crusades, Category:Ancient Roman Christianity and dozens of other specialised categories you will be able to do nothing about. Plus it has been done in a very overbearing way. With a very few exception, the whole lot should be reverted. Btw, you are confusing me with someone else, if you look at your talk page, and just below. Johnbod (talk) 20:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- If you can point out to me a specific policy or guideline which agrees with you, I will be more than willing to do so. However, the only policy or guideline which I know of which might be relevant is WP:OWN, which would say that the banner could be placed there. Can you point out a contrary one? John Carter (talk) 20:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- On the contrary, there seems to be a clear Wikipedia:Consensus here and elsewhere that, a) your edits were done inappropriately by forcing themselves above GA & FA banners as well as those of more involved projects and b) the scope of the categories marked for tagging goes well beyond what is reasonable for such an excercise. Johnbod (talk) 21:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- If you can point out to me a specific policy or guideline which agrees with you, I will be more than willing to do so. However, the only policy or guideline which I know of which might be relevant is WP:OWN, which would say that the banner could be placed there. Can you point out a contrary one? John Carter (talk) 20:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- A quick look here [29] and here [30] will show why this was being done. I have tried to discuss this with John Carter here [31]. There is a definite problem here that needs to be addressed and a consensus reached as soon as possible. MarnetteD | Talk 20:06, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- As can easily be seen I did not start this thread and it looks as though everyone here has come here independently. The inclusion of the page Louis Auguste Blanqui in this bots work shows the pitfall of the mass inclusion of categories in the request to the bot noted above. I have suggested that this projects banners need to be done by a human and not a bot. Even then some pages inclusion in the project will need to have a consensus of editors to verify the inclusion. MarnetteD | Talk 20:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Nothing wrong with the idea, just that the categories could've been a little more carefully selected. Some of the more borderline ones probably needed to be done by hand. Black Kite 20:21, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I looked over the cats and they looked ok, John carter is a trusted user, I am not that familiar with WP:RELIGION. But every thing looked ok, so I went ahead and tagged them. the same thing that I have done countless times before. βcommand 20:37, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
(multi ec) The bot request that lead to this situation may be found at: Wikipedia:BOTREQ#Bot tagging request. The request includes several categories that are not appropriate for the tag, as they are not within the scope of religious studies. (For example, Category:Anti-Defamation League and Category:Anti-Jewish pogroms.) The inclusion of apostate and convert categories also seems seriously questionable. Religious affiliation does not indicate that that an article is within the scope of religious studies. I often defend BetacommandBot and its operator regarding fair-use tagging. However, Betacommand's assertion that it's essentially not his problem in this instance is very disturbing. He undertook the actions and he is responsible for the actions he takes. Responding to a request is not an excuse to disclaim responsibility. For example, if an admin makes a bad block for edit warring based on an incorrect 3RR report, the reporting user isn't blamed for the bad block, the block admin is blamed for the bad block. Regardless of John Carter's request, Betacommand is responsible for the edits he made and should be responsible for cleaning up any mess made by those edits. Vassyana (talk) 20:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- My apologies to JohnBod regarding the mistake. Actually, I specifically made sure that the most borderline ones weren't included at all. I should also note that I am separately trying to combine the extant religion banners into no more than, hopefully, five or six separate banners, one for Christianity and all related projects, one for Judaism, one for religious texts, and as many others as possible in the main Religion banner. Unfortunately, it is often the case that articles are relevant to several religions. Martin Luther is currently tagged for 6 religion projects, Bible 9. However, even there, it would be useful knowing which subprojects want assessments on the articles, and placing the banners in advance, so that it becomes easier to know which terms to add, I think makes a bit of sense. And, as stated, I am going through these articles by hand to place the banner in the shell templates, if such is required, and assess them. It might take a week or so to go through them all. John Carter (talk) 20:31, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- One, Two, Three, Four, Boone (by that I mean, don't sweat, it's an honest mistake that happened because of the instructions it was given - when I asked for UK road articles to me mass tagged, I had to be careful not to get Edinburgh Castle tagged, but some wayward tags happened anyway) Will (talk) 20:33, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
(usual BCB-thread ecs)Perhaps people could see this through the lens of WP:AGF - if someone, in good faith, asks BC to run his bot to add something to talk pages of articles in good faith, then BC has no reason in good faith to not do so. That there is a problem that others have with this is fine, but please point me to anyone here who was not acting in good faith. Central tenet of the 'pedia: AGF until proven otherwise; and remember the miles of rope we extend to the various POV-pushing, nasty-minded sockpuppeting trolls and compare that to the mere millimetres we give to BC and BCB. ➔ REDVEЯS knows how Joan of Arc felt 20:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Completely agree. It was a good faith request made to the Bot request page, Betacommand acted in good faith here. If I knew the first thing about bots I would have done the same and I am sure that can be said about most people commenting here. Woody (talk) 20:37, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I perfectly believe both users acted in good faith. However, good faith does not preclude poor or contentious decisions. Vassyana (talk) 20:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think it was a poor decision. He probably compiled a list in AWB and gave it to BCB, and guessing the magnitude of WP:RELIGION, I don't think he checked too closely. Will (talk) 20:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- As Vassyana, above. Everyone acted in good faith, yes, right up until the point where βcommand responded to requests to stop with an imperious, "Go talk to the guy who asked me to do it."
The run should have been stopped immediately, andβ should have investigated the accusations of improper tagging. The ability to make hundreds of thousands of edits to the Encyclopedia in a machine-assisted way is granted with the assumption that the controller of the bot will exercise due restraint with it, especially given the difficulties and overhead inherent in mass-reversion. β may have exercised due restraint here in accepting the request, but the poor decision, in this case, lies in continuing to perform the edits even after multiple people raised concerns about their applicability. As such, he has fallen short of the standard I'd expect for bot operators. Jouster (whisper) 20:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)- The bot made a total of four edits after the issue was brought up. I re-directed questions to the person who is best to answer them, I am not part of WP:RELIGION and john is a better person to ask. βcommand 21:10, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Again, don't beat Beta up about it. He trusted John to think he'd checked the list thoroughly. WP:UKRD is a small project and it has 1429 articles. RELIGION, like BIOG and LGBT, is bound to be very big. People don't have time to check through a list of 20,000 articles in great detail. Just fix the mistakes, and let's all move on, shall we? Will (talk) 20:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- As Vassyana, above. Everyone acted in good faith, yes, right up until the point where βcommand responded to requests to stop with an imperious, "Go talk to the guy who asked me to do it."
- I note that no one seems to question what is probably the primary problem here, which is the unfortunately huge problem of miscategorization or failure to adjust categorization over time. One of the few ways we have available to indicate that articles might be miscategorized is this means. I have just noted the rather inclusive(?) nature of the extant Category:Antisemitism, which doesn't seem to allow for differences between communist antisemitism and Christian or other antisemitism, and have requested the creation of a new, more defined, subcategory by the Judaism WikiProject. Unfortunately, as stated before, and in this case by Kirll Lokshin regarding the various subcats of military history, one of the only ways to find out when articles are miscategorized or poorly categorized is to see what they logically link to. As it stands, Category:Jerusalem is still a distant subcat of Category:Religious texts, which strikes me as seemingly nonsensical. The lack of attention that categorization has received is probably one of the biggest problems we have, and, even if by making errors such as some of those here, this may be the only way to get people to address those existing errors, or failures to adjust categorization as new categorization is developed. John Carter (talk) 20:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Why on earth should Category:Antisemitism have to "allow for differences between communist antisemitism and Christian or other antisemitism" just for your benefit! Categorization is more important, and usually given far more thought, than project banner tagging. You should look at the category trees before you ask them to be tagged. Johnbod (talk) 21:46, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think it was a poor decision. He probably compiled a list in AWB and gave it to BCB, and guessing the magnitude of WP:RELIGION, I don't think he checked too closely. Will (talk) 20:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I perfectly believe both users acted in good faith. However, good faith does not preclude poor or contentious decisions. Vassyana (talk) 20:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see that as the primary problem. There had been a discussion about the role of WP:RELIGION shortly after it was first created, and there was a general sense that it was a useful forum for cooperative efforts and discussing particular issues but that focused expertise was needed in each individual religion to evaluate articles and the individual religion WikiProjects could supply that. Obviously any WikiProject, even one with a small number of members, is welcome to tag and evaluate articles. However, strongly suggest seeking consensus before asking a bot operator to place ones own project's tag at the top. --Shirahadasha (talk) 21:08, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- In the past year, after a rocky start where the WikiProject presented itself as a hierarchical umbrella project over all religion WikiProjects to general disagreement, the project regrouped and had been quietly making contributions to the encyclopedia and gaining in use, trust, and members. I've used it myself for a number of issues of potential interest to members of multiple religions. Efforts that tend to convey an impression to the rest of the community that one is in charge and bypass seeking the community's processes for approval do not lead to trust, and this latest incident is very much a setback for the WikiProject's efforts to be a useful and valued forum and collaboration platform. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 21:08, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Loathe though I am to keep flogging the horse, the majority of Beta's ill-deserved flak for this would have been avoided if he were to move tasks such as this to User:BetacommandBot II or similar. Surely it can't be that difficult... Happy‑melon 21:15, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- And, of course, who could resist to blame something else on Betacommand. Global warming? Also Betacommand. *sigh* Whether the tagging would have been done by another bot account or not the accident would still have occured, and Betacommand would still have been blamed. Lay off of him, for crying out loud. — Coren (talk) 21:18, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Oh don't get me wrong, Beta deserves none of it; he was just unfortunate enough to be the first bot operator to see the request with enough time to act on it. I'm just saying that it might be in his own interest to split the accounts, since he must be quite legitimately sick and tired of everything BetacommandBot does being automatically slated just because of its work on non-free images. Full marks to him for putting up with it - I just wonder why he doesn't make it easier for himself. Happy‑melon 21:27, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know that the above statements by Shirahadasha are necessarily accurate about how the project first "presented" itself, I wasn't here at the time. However, I should note that the responsibility for the tagging was entirely my own. It should also be noted, again, that the tagging wasn't for the religion project per se, but rather the interfaith work group. And, regarding individual editors questions, there are and always will be questions regarding any group's even existence. Actually, I do not see at all how placement of a banner is and I quote an attempt to "bypass seeking the community's processes for approval". It is by definition impossible to know what the "community" specifically relevant to any article is. I have just since I started assessing the articles recently tagged, and I have been assessing them for all the projects which have already tagged them as well, found a few articles which really weren't relevant to the interfaith group, but were clearly relevant to other projects, including Hinduism and other religions, which hadn't yet tagged them. In fact, in several cases, no project had tagged these articles, religious or otherwise, even when they clearly dealt with religious subjects. Was I similarly bypassing processes for approval by tagging those articles for the appropriate projects? John Carter (talk) 21:23, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- It wasn't tagging the articles, it was placing the tag on top (even on top of FA tags). But I also realize that you may not have had any input into where the tag was placed on a talk page, and this may have been a programming issue. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 21:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- As I recall, when Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion was formed, it was not going to tag articles already tagged by more specific "daughter" projects. Its scope was to be general religious topics and more specific religious issues that lacked a dedicated wikiproject. Did this change? Gimmetrow 01:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Where does the bot approval process come into play. I continue to take exception with the fact that BetacommandBot is permited to work outside of the standard approval process. Am I totally in left field? Is this not a new function for the bot? A user makes a request for a bot to make thousdands of edits without any clear indication that there is any concensus for the edits and a bot operator decides that it sounds like a good idea and goes ahead and does it while totally ignoring WP:BAG It would appear that the functional policy regarding BetacommandBot is that it is permitted to do anything its owner decides to do and that it is not accountable to anyone. To quote one of the requirements from Wikipedia:Bot policy performs only tasks for which there is consensus Where was the consensus for this request? But since Betacommand is always right, and since he has alrealy labeled me as a troll, feel free to disregard what I have written. Dbiel (Talk) 01:56, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Dbiel, wikiproject tagging is a very standard procedure, Ive been doing it for a long time, see Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/BetacommandBot#WikiProject for my "recent" WP approval (April 2007), and my original approval [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/BetacommandBot#BetacommandBot New task Bot operators dont need approval for each individual tagging run. Please check your facts before making wrong statements. βcommand 03:50, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- βis right that bot operators approved for wikiproject tagging do not need approval for each individual tagging run. Although, above, I question whether this particular tagging was appropriate, β may not have known the history. Gimmetrow 05:35, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- And that approved policy is to place additional new banners at the top of the page above any existing banner? And silly me, I thought that new entries were to be placed as the bottom of the section they pertain to, or in the case of the more complex pages like Talk:Paul the Apostle would be nested in the appropriate subsection, but of course that would require extensive bot programming. So lets just do it fast and wrong and make someone else clean it up. But the fact is the bot was approved to DO the task, but how it was to be done was never discussed. Well so be it. Dbiel (Talk) 21:09, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- βis right that bot operators approved for wikiproject tagging do not need approval for each individual tagging run. Although, above, I question whether this particular tagging was appropriate, β may not have known the history. Gimmetrow 05:35, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm so sick of the talk page template spamming. Who is this really helping, besides the members of the ineffectual WikiProjects who want to feel important? If you can use extant categories to find articles that "fall within the scope of" your project, there's no need to spam up the talk pages with more trash. --Cyde Weys 04:04, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Block User:John Carter
Uh, calmly discuss problem in this section
Really, whether it was a poorly thought out decision or not - there is no reason to attack the editors and call them arrogant, pugnacious, or whatever else. I don't think there is a need for administrator intervention in this case, its essentially a content dispute about categorization (mostly focused on the position of the category on the talkpage...Hah!). Here's a thought: Assume that everyone involved has the same general goal of improving the encyclopedia, and work from there. Avruch T 16:22, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- As it's a content dispute not needing admin intervention, why not have calm discussion take place on the project talk page? Lara❤Love 16:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. Tea and Biscuits in the lobby. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 16:36, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
IP abuse
It would be useful if one could search the history of all IPs in a given subnet. Is there a tool that does this? Guy (Help!) 21:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- WikiScanner can do that. (http://wikiscanner.virgil.gr/). Jon513 (talk) 21:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ta. Guy (Help!) 22:36, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I tried that and it was grossly out of date or something. I tried searching 74.138.145.0/24 but none of the 74.138.145.133 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) edits showed up. Those are from December! Did I do something wrong? —Wknight94 (talk) 12:16, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- No, you didn't do anything wrong - look at the bottom of the page, it says it's only searching edits "from February 7th, 2002 to August 4th, 2007". They obviously need a new database dump. Black Kite 12:26, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- I tried that and it was grossly out of date or something. I tried searching 74.138.145.0/24 but none of the 74.138.145.133 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) edits showed up. Those are from December! Did I do something wrong? —Wknight94 (talk) 12:16, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ta. Guy (Help!) 22:36, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Guy, checkuser can do that if you have a good reason. Thatcher 14:04, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think he just wants anonymous edits - that's not privileged information at all, just tedious to go through from anywhere from 254 to millions of contribution pages. —Random832 16:26, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- User:Mr.Z-man/rangecheck can do it using User:VasilievVV's toolserver tool. It works well for /24 ranges, but /16 range checks can be s...l...o...w. Mr.Z-man 17:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think he just wants anonymous edits - that's not privileged information at all, just tedious to go through from anywhere from 254 to millions of contribution pages. —Random832 16:26, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Occasionally I've wanted to know what the collateral damage would be if I made a particular anon-only rangeblock (to deal with a pernicious vandal or sockpuppeteer on a floating IP). I've blocked ranges as large as /14 (using multiple /16 blocks) for short periods. A tool to find out just how much trouble such blocks would cause – in advance – would be quite handy. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:14, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yup. Handy tool, though it takes a while to grab even a /24. Guy (Help!) 18:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- If all you wanted was a check for collateral damage, I'd do it if you catch me active when you need the info. I wouldn't have to disclose the names to say whether or not it was a safe block. Thatcher 11:36, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Appreciate it, thanks. This was for a much more mundane matter - some IP vandalism, and wondering if a short rangeblock was justified. Turns out it was spread over only five or six IPs, and all on one or two articles, so if need be I will semiprotect them. Thanks, Guy (Help!) 19:00, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- If all you wanted was a check for collateral damage, I'd do it if you catch me active when you need the info. I wouldn't have to disclose the names to say whether or not it was a safe block. Thatcher 11:36, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yup. Handy tool, though it takes a while to grab even a /24. Guy (Help!) 18:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Occasionally I've wanted to know what the collateral damage would be if I made a particular anon-only rangeblock (to deal with a pernicious vandal or sockpuppeteer on a floating IP). I've blocked ranges as large as /14 (using multiple /16 blocks) for short periods. A tool to find out just how much trouble such blocks would cause – in advance – would be quite handy. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:14, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
WP:BLPN anyone?
If anyone is interested, an objective opinion would be useful at WP:BLPN#Mike Lupica. Summary: my two edits removed a criticism section that was larger than the entire rest of the article combined (check the article sizes before and after). A POV-pushing IP disagrees. Input is much appreciated. —Wknight94 (talk) 12:09, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Would it be possible for an admin to salt Benjamin Sack, as attack pages keep being created at this title. Thanks, EJF (talk) 19:20, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- I just blocked the account doing the creating instead. No need to salt the article if it's just one disruptive account causing the problem. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 19:26, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Juvenile rape suspect's name?
This edit to Upper St. Clair High School doesn't look kosher to me. It looks like someone has added the name of a juvenile suspected of rape, even though, as of a couple days ago, the article (and this news story) stated that his name would not be released because he was a high-school freshman. --zenohockey (talk) 19:44, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Reverted, this may be a prank or it may be the defendant's real name. Either way, it's a breach of WP:BLP and probably worse. Difficult to tell if it's a case for oversight, however. Page will be monitored & semi-pp if required. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 19:50, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- If the name has not been reported by any news sources, it should be removed as unverifiable. Until sources are found this is (at best) original research or (at worst) libel of a different person who had nothing to do with it. I would support blocking the "informant" if he continues to add unverifiable content, but recommend against protecting the page as that would impede legitimate edits (which would, by definition, be accompanied and supported by sources) in the event that further information is released. — CharlotteWebb 19:54, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- The edit was oversighted and I've semi-protected the page. I noticed an IP from what I assume is the same range (probably the school) blanking the section, so we should keep an eye on it. John Reaves 20:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Could someone look at this article please. Two anon editors seem to be engaged in an edit war at present. I've drawn their attention to WP:3RR, but I'm concerned in case one of them is the subject of the article, which is tagged as an autobiography, so I'm not sure if protection or a block is the best solution. Any thoughts please? — Tivedshambo (t|c) 20:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- 70.109.223.188 is generally being quite constructive, it's the various other IPs that are the problem right now. It's just been prodded anyway, but I can imagine it going to AfD. One Night In Hackney303 20:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with that, which is why I left a softer message on their user page than the standard {{uw-3rr}} warning. I've suggested s/he cools down, but I understand their frustration. The PROD has alredy been removed. — Tivedshambo (t|c) 20:52, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Suspect editing
Require a few other thoughts on the editing activities of User:Kbrian. I would normally just remove the added links as spam, but the editor is mass adding the links as references rather than external links. The editing pattern suggests the user is only here to do one thing, and that is to promote the site. It is telling that the 6th hit on google for the site is Project spam report, originally generated because of editing in November by an editor with the sites username. SFC9394 (talk) 21:07, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Merge
Would someone please place merge tags to merge template:details with template:further, and direct them to the talk page of details? Richard001 (talk) 22:56, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Pssssssssst!
Can someone take a look and auth these 2 users? Wikipedia talk:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage One of them is for the german wikipedia. --Party!Talk to me! 23:19, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Image copyright issues, Jim Bailey
User:Williamkieffert and User:Campbellman222 are employees of Jim Bailey, an entertainer known in the 70s for his impressions of female celebrities. While I commend these two for editing fairly and collaborating with Orangemike and myself in cleaning up the Jim Bailey article and making it NPOV, I'm worried that the images they've uploaded may not comply with our policies. Since image policy is not my forté, I'm asking for additional eyes on this matter. Related links:
- User talk:GlassCobra, the bottom topics
- User talk:Williamkieffert
- User talk:Campbellman222
- Williamkieffert's upload log
- Campbellman222's upload log
Thanks in advance. GlassCobra 00:36, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Assuming they hold the copyright on those photos, everything looks in order. I'd be very leery of making that assumption, though, since a lot of them seem to be screenshots from shows for which I wouldn't expect Bailey to own the copyrights. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 00:41, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Exactly my thinking. What do we do? GlassCobra 02:13, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- We could list them at WP:PUI - that would be my suggestion, but I don't have time to do so right now. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 02:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Exactly my thinking. What do we do? GlassCobra 02:13, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Year long backlog at WP:AFC cleared!
Hurray, after a little over a year of backlogged requests, articles for creation is now clear of {{backlog}}! Thanks to the efforts of many. This just proves that when we get organized (organized? what does that mean?) that we can really accomplish a ton. ;) Tiptoety talk 00:41, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Admin, plz delete this thread and ban this user - I don't understand any of the language he's using - "accomplish", "organized", "efforts" - this sort of stuff clearly isn't suitable for AN. ( 8-) great job team!) --Fredrick day (talk) 00:46, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Hey, there are only 12651 pages needing Wikification. Any plans for the weekend, Tiptoety? --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 01:11, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
There's still a backlog at WP:AR1 to get started on. =] shoy 01:52, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Im ready to tackle any challenge, as long as i have some help :) Tiptoety talk 02:41, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- One small problem: consider the case of company X, which is a PR firm acting for company Y. Now, put yourself in their position, go through the article wizard and see which choices you make, and whether we would consider them the right choices. I'd like to guide such people to a place where they submit a request with sources and someone else reviews it, but I don't see this will happen here. Not that the article creation wizard is bad, quite the opposite. It should be the default for all new articles. Guy (Help!) 15:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Long-term abuse at Graham Spanier
- Graham Spanier (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I'd like to request a few more sets of eyes to help watch the Graham Spanier page. The page has a long history of anonymous vandalism adding libelous material (dating back to at least November) from IPs coming out of Penn State, so I tried protecting for a half month. As soon as the protection expired the vandalism resumed, so I have sprotected the page until May 1st. Now sockpuppets have started popping up and have resorted to vandalising the pictures on his article, one of which I have now semiprotected. I wouldn't be surprised to see the rest of the pictures follow suit, but I'm not sure I like the idea of pre-emptive protection. I also wouldn't be surprised to see additional sockpuppet accounts pop up to continue the quest to vandalise the article, considering the persistence of this editor so far. A range block to the Penn State IP range might be in order, but it seems to be a bit extreme to block an entire college because of one malicious editor. Another possibly is for someone to contact the school and alert them of the situation. In either case, some more people to keep an eye on the page can't hurt. VegaDark (talk) 05:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe a quick mail to Penn State technical services would be a good idea. I'm sure they (or the administration at large) wouldn't too pleased with this. Circeus (talk) 05:08, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
and it continues. I'm e-mailing their help desk to see what they have to say about it. VegaDark (talk) 15:42, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Another archtransit/Dereks1x sock?
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Someone check this out: [32]. Notice the frequent connections to VK35, the "bridge" sock between Archtransit and Dereks1x, and the 6-month gap in editing. Editing times are a pretty good match too. Or am I barking up a wrong tree here? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:27, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- IDK, there is only 1 unrelated talk-page overlap between those accounts, but then again there are only 2 pages of overlap between Dereks1x and Archtransit. I will grant though a significant 15/102 edits of Hareburg/VK35 overlap. MBisanz talk 06:42, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Harebag, coincidentally. ~ Riana ⁂ 06:45, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- VK35 adopted Harebag??? Looks even more suspicious... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:50, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not blocking anyone, probably wouldn't be right for me, but I won't lose sleep if someone else does. ~ Riana ⁂ 06:54, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- The checkuser magic eight-ball says the IPs are Unrelated. Thatcher 11:33, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for checking that out. The duck test still says they may be related. We'ren't other Artransit/Dereks1x socks still blocked as passing the duck test even AFTER failing checkuser, or is the failed checkuser test definitive proof that this person is NOT another Archtransit/Dereks1x sock. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 15:09, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- All the Archtransit/Dereks1x accounts that I know of (from the recent episode) share at least two (and often more) critical technical features. Harebag's recent edits lacks both features, and appear to originate from a different time zone. Some form of meat puppetry can't be ruled out, or maybe Dereks1x went to visit his cousin or something, but it is not the same situation as the other recent accounts. Thatcher 15:52, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for checking that out. The duck test still says they may be related. We'ren't other Artransit/Dereks1x socks still blocked as passing the duck test even AFTER failing checkuser, or is the failed checkuser test definitive proof that this person is NOT another Archtransit/Dereks1x sock. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 15:09, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- The checkuser magic eight-ball says the IPs are Unrelated. Thatcher 11:33, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not blocking anyone, probably wouldn't be right for me, but I won't lose sleep if someone else does. ~ Riana ⁂ 06:54, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- VK35 adopted Harebag??? Looks even more suspicious... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:50, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Harebag, coincidentally. ~ Riana ⁂ 06:45, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Range blocks on hosting ranges - be contactable!
Hosting ranges are often blocked entirely when a likely open proxy or 0wnz0r3d box is found in them, on the presumption that edits from hosted machines are vanishingly unlikely. There are, however, more false positives than you might think ...
I just had to unblock and then reblock around 87.117.229.0/24 - which is in the middle of a hosting range, but happens to be the /24 for last.fm and includes their office proxy, 87.117.229.252 (on which user and user talk page I've put a note with their admin contact details in case of idiocy from their range). Apparently they had asked before about unblocking and been told "no" ... I don't have the details.
But false positives - either from a subrange inside a hosting range, or some old-skool type who insists on editing from his very own hosted box rather than the PC on his desk - are far from unknown with hosting range blocks. And even though hosting range blocks are generally a good idea when needed, please keep in mind the need to be approachable and to be ready to unblock as needed.
I also used the following blocking summary: "hosting range blocked due to open proxies or compromised machines - please contact in case of false positives, subranges with a contact, etc." Which hopefully should make it come across as less impersonal and tell people what they actually need to do next - David Gerard (talk) 14:16, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- I would like to propose a new feature "IP Range header pages" - i.e. if a page User talk:87.117.229.0/24 exists, it appears at the top of every IP talk page within that range. Because, the information posted on User talk:87.117.229.252 is not going to be visible at all to someone responding to vandalism from, say, 87.117.229.55. —Random832 15:08, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Couldn't a bot do this? That is, couldn't a bot parse the block log, interpet the range blocks, and append notice tags (like the sharedIPEDU tag) to each of the effected individual IPs? This seems like a reasonable task, but likely to be so repetitive that a bot would do it well... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 15:11, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- On a /16 block that would be 130,000 edits, which for a short block is a lot of work. Currently anyone editing from a blocked range gets to see which range is blocked in their block notice. A single talk page could be linked from there for additional info. But the block reason is visible to anyone blocked within the range, and that is the best place for information. -- zzuuzz (talk) 15:21, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Technical question If a large range is blocked, it is possible to unblock individual IPs within that range? Or does the whole range block have to be lifted? Thatcher 15:54, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Looks like not, which is why this is a pain in the backside - blocking a hosting range then unblocking IPs or subranges one at a time is the obvious solution, but I had to do this unblock-reblock using an online CIDR calculator, and I got at least one wrong in the process - David Gerard (talk) 16:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- No, it is not possible to unblock single IP addresses within a CIDR range. It is possible to unblock the range, and, reblock, leaving a "hole" for a smaller range, however, in most cases. SQLQuery me! 16:08, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Article has become a soapbox for personal opinions and grudges, dominated by Pinkish1 [33] and TheRealPitbull [34], the latter removing NPOV templates. (Also submitted to Biographies Notice Board) JNW (talk) 15:14, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- This has been addressed by Seicer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JNW (talk • contribs) 15:26, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
The following motion modifying the terms of the original Arbitration case has been adopted.
- Remedy 2 of EK3 (prohibition against posting on AN/I) is terminated.
- Remedy 3 of EK3 (commenting on admin's actions) is terminated.
- Everyking's music article "parole" is terminated.
- Remedy 5 of EK3 is continued (and indeed, is a common sense requirement for all editors.)
- Remedy X of EK3 (non-interaction and non-commenting on Snowspinner/Phil Sandifer) is continued.
- The harassment ban and terms of enforcement in the July 2006 amendment to EK3 is continued.
- Upon request by Everyking, these terms will be reviewed, but no more often than once per year, starting the date this motion passes.
For the Arbitration committee, Thatcher 16:06, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- In other words, it's the same thing as before. Remedies 2 & 3 were terminated three months ago; the parole was also suspended three months ago. The only changes in this entire list are in point 3—the status of the parole is changed from "suspended" to "terminated" (no practical difference, of course)—and in point 7, in which the ArbCom is restricting my ability to appeal, which was previously unlimited like everyone else's, to once per year. So, ultimately, I gained one minor concession that has no practical meaning, and lost a pretty significant right in the process. Hurray. Everyking (talk) 20:24, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't think this a fair result. Everyking pleaded his case and a majority of Arbitrators supported lifting the sanctions. The fact that more Arbitrators supported lifting fewer sanctions shouldn't be a bar to that. Reviewing the outcome of his appeal [35], I would interpret it as (given 8 Arbs were a majority) that the only sanction that should remain in force is remedy X as 8 Arbs supported the lifting of each of the other sanctions. It should be noted that the motion which passed actually does only 2 things (as remedies 2 & 3 appear to have expired in November):
- Lifts the music article "parole"
- Imposes a limitation of Everyking's future right of appeal
I find it hard to accept that someone can gain a majority of Arbs who support lifting sanctions and still be subject to those sanctions - they should surely only be applied in case of great necessity. If a majority of Arbitrators were willing to accept their being lifted, they surely cannot be necessary. WjBscribe 21:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
This doesn't seem like a reasonable outcome to me, either. Its strange because the two proposed motions were quite different, but got very similar levels of support. I think limiting the appeal is wrong, as Everyking is right - it creates a second class participation in the Arbitration process that other previous parties have not been subjected to. If the Committee is concerned that Everyking is likely to harass administrators - to the point that a remedy is necessary - then this should (1) be supported by evidence of harassing activity in the time since the last amendment and (2) not be addressed in the context of lifting all other remaining remedies. It appears as though the Committee intends to leave Everyking on permanent remedy of some sort - if thats the case, be straightforward about it and say why. Avruch T 22:05, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- I should note that, barring clarification here, and despite the fact that I have no previous involvement with this case or Everyking, I intend to file a request for clarification based on what Will and I have written above. Avruch T 22:12, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Without making any comment as to the Committee's decision here, which I have not researched to such a degree that I would feel comfortable making an evaluative comment on, I will say that it would be worthwhile either: (a) notifying the Committee as to this thread, and requesting input from them, either on the WT:AC or WT:RFAR page, or by direct contact to their mailing list; or, (b) asking the Committee directly to reconsider the matter.
- Personally, I would be included to support the former option—an out-and-out direct request for immediate reconsideration would, I feel, appear to be rather hurried: although speaking from my somewhat limited knowledge of the circumstances surrounding the case, I do not think it is an enormous miscarriage of justice, and hence an action on par with that which would be classified as "emergency" would most likely be unwarranted. AGK (contact) 23:08, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- I also find this decision hard to comprehend. In general, I think the Arbcom restricts itself to remedies lasting no longer than a year. The remedies in the Everyking 3 case, as amended in July 2006, were anomalously set to run until November 2007, but when Everyking asked on which day of November they expired, he was told to wait until the Arbcom reconsidered the case, which is three months later. Although a majority of Arbcom members supported lifting all but one restriction, this did not pass, and instead Everyking is under an additional restriction of not being allowed to appeal for a year.
- This sounds like the Arbcom is saying "You're a hopeless case; stop wasting our time", but Everyking is one of our most productive editors, and he certainly seems to have kept his nose clean for a long time. Blatant vandals, sock-puppeteers and POV-pushers get much better treatment than this.
- I think Arbcom has clearly come to the wrong result here, and since it has done so despite a majority voting for a more just result, it appears the process is broken. I do have respect for some individuals on the committee, but no longer for the Arbcom as a whole. We need a better judicial system on Wikipedia.-gadfium 00:15, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
My views on the proposals are contained in the now-archived discussion of the two motions. The anomoly with the voting result has been brought to the committee's attention and I have urged that we discuss it. A request for clarification, if desired, could provide a vehicle for such discussion. With regard to Gadfium's suggestion of a better judicial system, I am listening carefully. :) Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:50, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- I wouldn't be willing to make a request for clarification myself, lest I use up my annual appeal almost immediately. I'd be happy if someone made one on my behalf, provided that wasn't counted as an appeal by me. Everyking (talk) 00:54, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Based on the above suggestion and my concern in this case, I've sent an e-mail to ArbCom-l asking for reconsideration. I am willing to request an additional formal appeal on WP:RFAR on Everyking's behalf if the Committee does not address the problem on its own initiative. I have a great deal of respect for the Committee and its members, but I think this decision is in error and should be altered or clarified. Avruch T 01:06, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't know if you saw this thread: User_talk:Thatcher#Closure_of_appeal. FT2 (Talk | email) 04:30, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Filed
Here. Avruch T 01:17, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- A more useful link here. Note that the case which Avruch filed has been moved from "Current requests" - relating to new cases - to "Clarifications and other requests". Jay*Jay (talk) 05:21, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
In light of continued disputes, remedy 4 adopted in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Free Republic is amended by adding:
- "Additionally, any uninvolved administrator may impose a reasonable editing restriction (for example, 1RR) or page ban upon any editor who repeatedly engages in disruptive or uncivil editing of Free Republic or any closely related page. Prior to imposing such a ban or restriction, a warning should be given on the affected user's talkpage. All bans and restrictions shall be logged at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Free Republic#Log of blocks and bans."
- All editors, particularly including single purpose accounts and editors who have or may reasonably be perceived as having a conflict of interest, are strongly urged to edit Free Republic and related articles only in conformity with all Wikipedia policies and with this committee's prior decision. If the enhanced administrator authority provided in this ruling does not improve the situation on this article after 30 days, a request for a more formal Arbitration Committee review may be submitted.
For the Arbitration committee, Thatcher 16:32, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Free Republic is an extremely useful article. Any account whose first edit is there, you know to watch. Guy (Help!) 14:13, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Deletion discussion needing attention
Could an uninvolved sysop take a look over Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Toledano Tradition and Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Toledano Tradition, and refactor/clean it up as appropriate? Thanks! Vassyana (talk) 17:11, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- This just looks like basic formatting, so I'm sure this won't be a problem. However, is an aesthetic improvement absolutely necessary here? The issue simply seems to be an editor making his argument using his rather patchy knowledge of WikiFormatting, but it doesn't actively disrupt the page... Are you sure it is essential that we refactor the pages in question? AGK (contact) 23:02, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Strange userpage
I found the page User:Bobbinson while on recent changes patrol and I'm not quite sure what to do about it. The actual user has only three edits and it appears that another user and an IP user are editing the page to their liking. I'm not sure if this is vandalism or what course of action is necessary so I'm posting it here. Thingg⊕⊗ 17:58, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, I'd say they're the same person. Rudget. 18:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
This user sort of bugs me. He seems to go around finding news articles online and adding wildly imbalanced chunks of information to articles. He once insisted on adding a chunk of info about a rhino names Kofi Annan to the Kofi Annan article. See also his long incoherent rants on this AFD discussion. You see, this user is Florentino Floro (yeah, he has an article of his own)-- a Filipino judge suspended from the judiciary due to mental illness (he was taking legal advice from a trio of invisible dwarves). It seems a real pain that we would have our encyclopedia written by someone who's been widely acknowledged in the media (and by the Philippine legal system, no less) to be, well, crazy. TheCoffee (talk) 20:54, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think this could be put a little more diplomatically. I've seen Floro's editing here and there and he's definitely good about adding current events content. Sometimes things need to be structured a bit better or moved around, but the content is good. Maybe the bit about the rhino doesn't need to go in Annan's article, but perhaps a place could be found for it elsewhere, particularly since it ties into conservation efforts (depending on the degree of coverage, it might warrant its own article). Everyking (talk) 21:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- TheCoffee, what are your specific complaints regarding this user, and can you provide evidence which backs up your accusations? Burden of proof lies on a person making an accusation against an editor, and it is essential that that proof is provided. You may wish to provide diffs, links or quotations; however, any evidence needs to back up your statements. Regards, AGK (contact) 23:00, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Floro adds content but at a price of a huge amount of time spent re-organizing, sourcing, removing hyperbole and wikifying. Compare these versions, comments here, these diffs (this particular page was created twice, under different names but identical content). Floro does not improve with advice, criticism, warnings or other comments I've banged my head against this wall many times and never found it rewarding. WLU (talk) 00:21, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- I remember advising him to reduce overwikification and redundancy, and he seemed to improve about that. Also, I'm not sure your trimming of the Suarez article was a good thing; we certainly can't blame Floro for writing a lot of content, can we? As for other criticisms, Wikipedia is full of stuff that needs to be cleaned up. Floro is actually pretty good, and in my experience he does use references. Everyking (talk) 00:34, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hmm...you'd have to look in detail at what I trimmed and why, and the discussion of the talk page. If you read through the original page drafted by Floro, there's lots of hyperbole, it's very POV, there's a massive chunk of text duplicating needless information in other pages (see the original version, 'healing in catholicism'), the tone is off, far too many links external and see also, and not in the least, the credulous belief that Suarez raised the dead. His contributions seem to go in waves. See this compared with the deleted versions of Philippine Virgin Coconut and Heat-Pressed Healing Oils, as well as the history of coconut charcoal. I'm not advocating a block, but I have run into floro several times and it's far more aggravating than rewarding. If a mentor agrees to help, they have my best wishes and my sympathy. WLU (talk) 12:50, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- I remember advising him to reduce overwikification and redundancy, and he seemed to improve about that. Also, I'm not sure your trimming of the Suarez article was a good thing; we certainly can't blame Floro for writing a lot of content, can we? As for other criticisms, Wikipedia is full of stuff that needs to be cleaned up. Floro is actually pretty good, and in my experience he does use references. Everyking (talk) 00:34, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- If I'm reading some of his comments right, his argument is that many of his POV comments etc should be included because he can see the future. Clearly lots of issues there, I suggest plenty of eyes on this one... --Fredrick day (talk) 17:30, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Floro adds content but at a price of a huge amount of time spent re-organizing, sourcing, removing hyperbole and wikifying. Compare these versions, comments here, these diffs (this particular page was created twice, under different names but identical content). Floro does not improve with advice, criticism, warnings or other comments I've banged my head against this wall many times and never found it rewarding. WLU (talk) 00:21, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- TheCoffee, what are your specific complaints regarding this user, and can you provide evidence which backs up your accusations? Burden of proof lies on a person making an accusation against an editor, and it is essential that that proof is provided. You may wish to provide diffs, links or quotations; however, any evidence needs to back up your statements. Regards, AGK (contact) 23:00, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
More admins needed at Wikipedia:User categories for discussion
There are only about 3 regular admins who close discussions there, and often all three of us participate in discussions due to the relatively low participation there. As it stands right now, there are discussions dating back to February 9th that need closing. This is disrupting the archive process and making the page a lot longer than it needs to be, making navigation harder. Recently we have even had to close unambiguous debates that we participated in due to the lack of admins, which we would like to be able to avoid if at all possible. The adminbacklog tag isn't helping, and my requests on the IRC channel haven't been working lately. Those of you that don't want to go to the effort of removing categories from a bunch of pages, you don't even have to- You can simply list the page at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Working/User after closure (however, that too is starting to develop a small backlog). If this section of Wikipedia is going to continue to be neglected then perhaps it should be merged back to regular CfD, otherwise we definitely need some more people to close discussions on that page. VegaDark (talk) 21:42, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Your {{adminbacklog}} tag led me there once but I'm not ashamed to admit that I have no clue what it is. (Okay, maybe I'm a little ashamed). Quick summary perhaps? —Wknight94 (talk) 21:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'll take a look. Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion was also backlogged but I've brought it up to date. I'll add it to my list of tasks in future. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:58, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- What is the justification for this being separate from WP:RFD? The only explanation I have came up with, is the segregation of (arguably) mainspace-related issues from project-related issues. If that is the explanation, might it be combined in WP:MFD? AGK (contact) 22:52, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- I would say there's enough categories out there to swell MFD. And RFD can't cover these, they aren't redirects. bibliomaniac15 23:32, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- What is the justification for this being separate from WP:RFD? The only explanation I have came up with, is the segregation of (arguably) mainspace-related issues from project-related issues. If that is the explanation, might it be combined in WP:MFD? AGK (contact) 22:52, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- I've tried my hand at one, and I'll be happy to help out more once I'm sure I've done it right (or figured out how to correct what I've done wrong). :) I'm not one of those people who immediately and comfortably embraces new procedures. Not so very bold, me. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 15:51, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I need some advice on how to deal with 75.47.146.88 (talk · contribs), who has used many other similar IPs such as 75.47.139.3 (talk · contribs). He has taken to reverting many of my edits and removing freeway names contrary to WP:ELG, and does not respond to talk page messages or edit summaries telling him to look at the article talk page. Most if not all of what he does is not vandalism, but it does worsen the articles. --NE2 23:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- I had a similar problem with an IP that was editing Missouri articles and messing up the exit lists. I would suggest using HTML comments to embed a pointer to the ELG page on the user's favorite pages. If they continue editing after that, you know that they're willfully violating the guideline as opposed to merely being ignorant about it. Just an idea.—Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 00:03, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's not that simple - the IP is using one Caltrans source that disagrees with every other source, and refuses to discuss it. And I just found out now that that's what he's been using, because he bothered to name his source in the edit summary. It's basically a content dispute, and I don't know what to do. --NE2 00:45, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
[36] --NE2 01:37, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Now I'm stuck, because if I reverted again I'd break 3RR. What should I do? --NE2 02:45, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ask someone else to revert for you if they don't mind. ^_^ AL2TB ^_^ 02:52, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- That's kind of poor form. --NE2 02:53, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well you asked people for advice. ^_^ AL2TB ^_^ 03:04, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, but not help with gaming 3RR... --NE2 03:05, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well revert again after 24 hours. The rules said that you can't do it within a 24-hour period. ^_^ AL2TB ^_^ 03:12, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, and then it's 24 hours later and I'm back at square one. I'd like a more long-term solution, preferably one that involves getting the IP to communicate. --NE2 03:34, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Don't game the system. 3RR is not an entitlement. The spirit of the rule is to preent edit wars. If you constantly war just outside the 3RR an admin can still block for it. hbdragon88 (talk) 04:45, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well revert again after 24 hours. The rules said that you can't do it within a 24-hour period. ^_^ AL2TB ^_^ 03:12, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, but not help with gaming 3RR... --NE2 03:05, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well you asked people for advice. ^_^ AL2TB ^_^ 03:04, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- That's kind of poor form. --NE2 02:53, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
This is a good question, actually. How do you deal with users, especially anonymous, that refuse to communicate? —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 03:53, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- If you can't BRD, RBI. Will (talk) 11:53, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's not vandalism though. --NE2 13:56, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Sockpuppet parade on Waterboarding, Islamic studies, and Same-sex marriage
Please compare with contribution history for User:Wikortreak and User:Weallneedlove. Justin Eiler (talk) 03:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Another one, User:Freepsux, also on Waterboarding. User also placed a comment on Talk:Global warming[37] almost identical to one by User:Gimmeablojob[38]. I've reported Freepsux for the username. --Snigbrook (talk) 03:59, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- the username User:Wikortreak (which does not exist) should be User:Wikortreat. --Snigbrook (talk) 04:03, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Oops. Thanks, Snigbrook. Justin Eiler (talk) 04:26, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Also, please see this edit for further clarification of this user's stated motive. Can we get a block? Justin Eiler (talk) 04:42, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- These wingnuts are hysterical. They consider that torture is fine, but sex between consenting adults of the same sex is something that absolutely must not be tolerated. I have not the words. OK, I ave the words, but I land in hot water whenever I use them around here. Luckily they are all blocked, so no temptation to use some of my colourful block summaries. See you next Tuesday, sockpuppets. Guy (Help!) 14:12, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Effective trolls elicit the sort of reaction above. I know the type--they figure "liberals" are easy to bait, and they would love nothing more than for you attack them in the manner you described.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 14:24, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- By the way, this fellow "Wikzilla"[39] gets around. He will be attending the NYC meetup, along with his dog, Dufus[40]; if you'd like me to say something to him on your behalf when I meet him, I can.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 14:24, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Backlog volunteers?
WP:SSP has a hefty backlog. Any volunteers? I could clear it up in a day or two, but I'm not an admin. - Neparis (talk) 04:47, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:General disclaimer
Any administrators, could you please add lo:ວິກິພີເດຍ:ຂໍ້ປະຕິເສດຄວາມຮັບຜິດຊອບ to Wikipedia:General disclaimer. Only the administrators can edit it. Thank you ! --125.24.38.7 (talk) 11:06, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Toledano Tradition
There is an AfD, at my request: Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Toledano Tradition. The other party to the discussion, Abafied, has in my view engaged in soapboxing, and also engaged in incivility a number of times. I would appreciate it if you would review the page for possible violations of civility and/or soapboxing. Thank you. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 12:38, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
BQ
The BQ page is being used as a platform to push a derogatory term. I believe the intent on constantly readding the item is to inflame an ongoing problem between editors seen elsewhere for the last month or 2.207.195.244.106 (talk) 14:06, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I am respectfully requesting that the 7 day ban on editing homeopathy related articles be immediately lifted. Jehochman imposed this on me, and called my edit summary at Deadly nightshade a "Deceptive edit summary" because I wrote "See talk" (which is used everywhere on Wikipedia in edit summaries). I wrote "See talk" because that's exactly what I meant. There was nothing "deceptive" about it. There are several extremely long and extensive discussions about why there should be the simple mention (with no claims) that belladonna is used in manufacturing homeopathic products. We have been admonished: "Avoid making repeated comments about the subject of the article" [[41]]. For me to have again repeated this same point that was made repeatedly by other editors on this very point did not seem right. Please consider lifting this ban. I had refrained from making any comments on that talk page for the very reason that it would seem tenditiously repetitive - which I thought was one of the things we were trying to avoid with the homeopathy probation. There did not appear to be any reasonable reason for me to repeat what had been discussed so extensively and repeatedly. [[42]] I also did not revert, but made changes in accord with what appeared to be the consensus (after very long and extensive discusssion) at the article discussion page: I removed the inappropriate therapeutic claims for homeopathy, and simply added 1 sentence (with reference) stating that the plant was used in the manufacture of homeopathic products. Arion 3x3 (talk) 14:52, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- I have advised Jehochman of this thread. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:25, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Having spent a happy afternoon clearing Category:Wikipedia protected edit requests, I would like to propose a redesign of {{editprotected}}
. See the proposal and discussion on the template talk page. Happy‑melon 17:57, 23 February 2008 (UTC)