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This position and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=CountyWatch&diff=prev&oldid=210252692 edit summaries like this] are unfortunate. We need to move this on quickly so we can get back to constructive editing. [[User:MRSC|MRSC]] • [[User_talk:MRSC|Talk]] 04:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
This position and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=CountyWatch&diff=prev&oldid=210252692 edit summaries like this] are unfortunate. We need to move this on quickly so we can get back to constructive editing. [[User:MRSC|MRSC]] • [[User_talk:MRSC|Talk]] 04:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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::Unfortunate, is even after opening this section, that your friend Jza should follow me to yet another article and wholesale remove a large chunk of work in an attempt to antagonise (again). Please explain how you feel this behaviour is acceptable. Continued and blatant attempts at antagonisation such as that documented in Jza's behvaiour is not constructive or acceptable. Also if you consider me saying in that edit summary ''"Jza you seem not to have learned a lesson"'' as something worth highlighting as "unfortunate", then you must be wrapped in cotton wool. How do you expect me to reply to his following and destruction; ''"Oh Jza, the way you followed me to this article and just ripped out the work I've just added is so great and nice of you"''. Reality check, please. - [[User:Yorkshirian|Yorkshirian]] ([[User talk:Yorkshirian|talk]]) 04:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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== User 12.111.29.12 == |
== User 12.111.29.12 == |
Revision as of 04:54, 5 May 2008
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Active alerts
This user is continues to harass me on my talk page with spurious warnings and threats of having my editing ability blocked. I believe this is due to his disagreement over this page's existence (he nominated the article for deletion but it was decided the page was worth keeping, much to his disgust). I have no desire to continue this bickering and have asked the user to cease posting on my talk page, he has responded with more baseless warnings and has recently declared that I am on my 'final' warning.
He is only trying to goad me into abusing him so he has an excuse to get my editing rights removed. In my opinion this is a blatant attempt at interpreting wikipedia's guidelines in such as way as to be disruptive while still being able to claim that he is 'only following the rules'. I am sick of being a target for his frustrations. Ars666 (talk) 04:26, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- Ars666 is entitled to his opinion regarding the aformentioned AfD discussion (which was closed as Keep anyway, I don't know what he is bitching about) but what is not okay was that during the discussion he characterized other editors as inherently unsuitable to offer their opinion, and ironically, his very premise for this assertion was also completely wrong. This is also a single-purpose account, and I suspect there may be some meatpuppettry going on here as well.
- The issue at hand is that Wakandas black panther put a templatized warning about civility and good faith on Ars666's talk page, after Ars666 had responded very rudely to my attempts to reach an understanding with him. Apparently, Ars666 feels that this template was "poor etiquette."
- A check of Ars666's contribs will show that he has had only one token mainspace contribution. The remaining contribs are all related to protestations against the (failed) AfD of Spots (cannabis). Frankly, I think it is clear that Ars666 does not contribute positively to the project and has no intention to do so in the future. And last time I checked, templatized warnings were the recommended way to deal with editors who have no intention of productive contribution. Therefore, Wakandas black panther's actions were 100% appropriate, and there is no need to continue this discussion. --Jaysweet (talk) 14:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
User 71.146.83.206
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Red_x.svg/20px-Red_x.svg.png)
This user has deleted the same single sentence in the Healdsburg, California article three times. The first time, he did it with the comment, "not sure who added this, but this is completely untRue". I reverted it, figuring that it was random vandalism. The second time, he did it with the comment, "dearest DoriSmith this material is false if you believe otherwise you best be prepa". After this, I (1) added a detailed breakdown of the single sentence(!) on the article's talk page, explaining the facts behind every clause, (2) put a brief comment on his talk page asking for discussion to move to the article talk page, and (3) reverted his second deletion. He then deleted the sentence for the third time, with the comment, "this claim is not sourced and you are abusing your privilege of Popups - stop." He left no messages for me on my talk page, his talk page, or the article's talk page.
That line in the article, btw, was originally added in 2005 [1], and has been in there ever since with only minor modifications.
At no point has he ever explained why he thinks it's untrue, false, or not sourced, or even to what part he objects. I don't want to get into a silly reversion war, but I'm having trouble starting a discussion here. Dori (talk) 22:42, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
- It doesn't seem to me that the other user is being particularly rude, although it would be helpful of them to engage in discussion on the talk page. The simplest thing would be to source the sentence, if it's unsourced other editors can remove it at any time for that reason. Restepc (talk) 06:17, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
- As I said, I did source it on the talk page—clause by clause. It seems a little extreme to add that much detail to a single sentence in the article, especially when he'll just delete it again and won't discuss the deletion, or even say what he thinks is incorrect. He won't talk to me, so I'd like to stop the reversion dance and somehow find out what's going on.
- As to rudeness (which I hadn't mentioned, but now that you have...), I'm not sure how else to take "dearest" and "you best be prepa"; not to mention his claim that I'm my "abusing" my "privilege of Popups - stop." To the best of my knowledge, popups don't require any privileges. Dori (talk) 19:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
- The comments you quote are not very respectful, but I find the sentence you want a little confusing. Is it uncommon for a town to be centred on a 19th century plaza if it wasn't founded under Mexican rule? How does the "though" clause modify the rest of the sentence? Also, you say that you sources the claim on the talk page. Disputed content should be sourced on the page itself (I note that the sentence now has two references, but I haven't checked them), and while you did break it down on the talk page, this breakdown only cited one source, which being a "letter to the editor" would probably not count as reliable. Bovlb (talk) 19:31, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
- As to rudeness (which I hadn't mentioned, but now that you have...), I'm not sure how else to take "dearest" and "you best be prepa"; not to mention his claim that I'm my "abusing" my "privilege of Popups - stop." To the best of my knowledge, popups don't require any privileges. Dori (talk) 19:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
- I also find the sentence to be, well, not as clear as it could be (it was added by someone else long before I started editing WP), which is why I was trying to find out which of the clauses he objected to. After his reverts (two of which were within 30 minutes of mine), I didn't want to try to put anything back in without some discussion, and I couldn't get him to cooperate.
- I brought it here, and then gave him and this process some time. After three days when he hadn't responded here or on the talk pages, I put the sentence back in with some sources. It's been a week since then and he still hasn't reappeared, so I'm assuming that he's lost interest and gone off to wherever people like that go to when they're not here wasting everyone's time.
I recently wrote a message to Wetman about his comments towards me on the talk page of Amazons [here], where he implied that I wasn't a competent adult and stated that we couldn't have sensible discussion when I disagreed with him on the issue. When I wrote back to him, he replied [here] and again called me incompetent, accused me of having "misplaced self-confidence", implied that my educational background was inferior to his, and compared me to an "aggressive class clown". It is not for my sake that I'm putting in this wikiquette alert, it is for the sake of others. Another editor has told me that Wetman has been rude to him on occasion as well, and I fear that his behavior will start driving away new editors. Asarelah (talk) 00:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Wetman has avoided direct personal attacks here, and has tried to make his inflammatory comments non-specific. However, at the root, he is being quite incivil and needs to stop. Mangojuicetalk 04:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- I had trouble which I tried to discuss with him here but he was less than civil. There's more at this location with additional information from User:Polaron. - Denimadept (talk) 05:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Wetman, having made some 52,000 edits since September 2003, whose resources of patience and forbearance are in perennially short supply, has surely raised some resentment, particularly by inappropriate laughter and frank, often sharp remarks in response to various dishonesties, pettiness, aggressive behavior, attacks with the WP:CIVILITY club, disinfopage pushing, list-making and other coxcombry. His Talkpage archives will show the nature of his habitual discourse quite plainly, and may be thumbed in order to select out further disgraceful examples of his "inflammatory though non-specific" comments:
- User talk:Wetman/archive3Mar2004
- User talk:Wetman/archive16Jun2004
- User talk:Wetman/archive12Aug2004
- User talk:Wetman/archive16Oct2004
- User talk:Wetman/archive15Jan2005
- User talk:Wetman/archive22Mar2005
- User talk:Wetman/archive23Jun2005
- User talk:Wetman/archive3Sep2005
- User talk:Wetman/archive1Dec2005
- User talk:Wetman/archive28Mar2006
- User talk:Wetman/archive3July2006
- User talk:Wetman/archive15Oct2006
- User talk:Wetman/archive7Feb2007
- User talk:Wetman/archive25Jun2007
- User talk:Wetman/archive10Aug2007
- User talk:Wetman/archive28Dec2007
- User talk:Wetman/archive16April2008
Remarks concerning competency in the field of Greek mythology belong at Talk:Amazons, where the complainant deleted a commonplace statement in July 2007, but did not have sufficient interest in the subject to have it on his Watchlist. Rather than make defensive retorts to individual complaints, Wetman prefers to let the record speak for itself, and to reserve the option of perhaps making some general remarks with broad applications— or perhaps not— once everyone has fully expressed themselves. Wetman (talk) 05:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Your record does speak for itself. Here are three people who you've annoyed. I suggest you try harder to be less annoying, as repelling people from Wikipedia is not productive. And I can't believe you are totally ignorant of your effect, given, as you say, your record. - Denimadept (talk) 13:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- I had kept the Amazons page on my watchlist, I simply didn't notice the remark that you made until recently, which I stated in my initial note to you on the talk page. I am also a woman, not a man, just so you know. I would also like to point out that a neutral third party, MangoJuice, also believes that your behavior has been inappropriate and incivil. Asarelah (talk) 15:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- I also had a disagreement with him about an addition he made to History of Chester, where he saw no need to add a reference to some material he had added, commenting that the article was mediocre. Of course, it would always remain mediocre if people had this attitude. A reply from him suggested that since the wikilink he had used contained a reference, that would suffice, but recent discussions on WP:Reliable sources confirms that I was correct in stating that this was insufficient. He then ended the discussion by making a statement: "What very high standards for such a mediocre article! Wetman never keeps articles on his Watchlist that are so distinctly "owned", so, that will be all from me at this article." The accusation of ownership was totally unjustified, and a comment by one of the leading contributors to UK articles: User:Jza84 supported the view that his comments were highly uncivil. (diff of exchange on History of Chester page. DDStretch (talk) 16:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
A spat I had with him yesterday at Talk:Dorian invasion over my changing a word involved quite a bit of personal attacks and insulting language. He does not play well with others. Too bad, as I actually value his contributions. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 19:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- I, for one, don't mean to imply that he's useless or anything like that, but that he needs to play with others better than he has been doing. - Denimadept (talk) 19:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- So how should this issue be resolved? Asarelah (talk) 01:12, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
- If it were easy, we wouldn't have brought it here. However, perhaps it's time to get more active. I feel he needs a apollogist following him around to try to reduce his negative effects, but I doubt anyone would apply for the position. I'd appreciate it if he'd try to consider his words first, forego his attempts at humor in such situations, and assume good faith in all situations other than blatant vandalism. - Denimadept (talk) 14:30, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
User Hibernian
User Hibernian : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hibernian
..is using the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Technocracy_movement Talk: as a kind of personal attack blog. Example. Skip quote: "I am not involved in TechInc or NET.". Wow! somebody actually got Skip to admit that he was kicked out of Technocracy Inc.! It took him about 2 years to admit it and come to the realisation, but better late than never I guess! What you didn't mention of-course, is that you were very embittered by that dismissal and have since attacked the organization in any way you can (including on Wiki) and even tried to setup a rival group. You've recently also attempted to insert the name of your "group" into Wiki articles. Hmmm no, no conflicts of interests there, I think Skips just a honest contributor with no hidden agenda at all (And if you can't guess, yes I’m being Sarcastic). --Hibernian
This is uncivil and demeaning and also not true. Could something be done? Thanks. skip sievert (talk) 18:43, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
- You need dispute resolution, you're not going to recruit people to your cause here. Guy (Help!) 19:14, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Another example of this editor being insulting and demeaning from today. It seems this person just is itching to pick a fight all the time. An example of a typical statement by Hibernian today on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Technocracy_movement Talk:Technocracy movement.
Quote... Uh hm, right, well I'm really not even going to bother refuting the baloney that you continue to spew, but like I've said before, Your opinions of this or any other Tech Inc. publications don't matter to anybody but yourself, they don't matter to me and they certainly don't matter to Wikipedia. The fact still remains that that electronic version is the only one that has so far been made available by Tech Inc. on the internet, it's as simply as that, no other version is necessary or acceptable. That's the version we can use, End of Story. --Hibernian (talk) 23:05, 28 April 2008 (UTC) ...end quote
I wish someone would talk to this person about his highly subjective and angry demeanor. He is impossible to reason with. He is a kind of bully with his Pov. angry and accusing. He is also talking about a link above that is blacklisted as spam on wiki. skip sievert (talk) 04:05, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Thomasalazar (talk · contribs) has been adding unsourced statistics and NPOV language to the article Española Valley High School (and is close to a 3RR violation at the moment). It has been explained to him why these edits are inappropriate; however, he removes warnings and discussions from his talk page (see here, here, and here), and makes uncivil comments on my talk page (see here and here).
Any advice would be helpful. ... discospinster talk 19:44, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
- Left a message with the user. Some of the comments were patently uncivil, and a good bit of the material being inserted was somewhat unencyclopedic. --Bfigura (talk) 22:28, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
- I believe he has reappeared under another account (EVHS (NNYDL) (talk · contribs)), adding the same statistics and leaving similar messages on my talk page. ... discospinster talk 02:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- There seem to be a lot of users with an interest in that school who don't like you. Have you thought of a checkuser request? Although I suppose since no one's evading blocks or being a giant vandal, such a request might be premature. --Bfigura (talk) 01:09, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- I figure as long as there is attention paid to the situation, it will remain under control. I hope so, anyway. ... discospinster talk 14:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- There seem to be a lot of users with an interest in that school who don't like you. Have you thought of a checkuser request? Although I suppose since no one's evading blocks or being a giant vandal, such a request might be premature. --Bfigura (talk) 01:09, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Ongoing pattern of personal attack, ad hominem attack and "outing"
The user, TheOzz, has been confronted about this several times and although he seems genuinely interested in being a constructive participant in editing the article in question, he also seems to be completely blind to his pattern of incivility. I thought it would help to receive an outside comment. I am particularly concerned about things he's offering as background information about real people that may do professional harm to them, and about his ongoing "outing" of an early editor of the article.
Here are some examples of diffs where TheOzz has insisted on supplying the personal name of an early editor and where he has offered background information about a critic of Babywise--in a manner that implies the person is a criminal, and about another critic--in a manner that implies he is not professionally credentialed.
When confronted, he escalates by sharing emails and more details.
Could someone please look this over and give some recommendations? Taketime (talk) 19:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- Done. I left TheOzz a warning to inform him/her that this isn't acceptable behavior. If you think that personal information needs to be permanently removed, please head over to oversight. If this persists, a quick and neutral summary (with diffs) on the admin's incident board would probably be called for. --Bfigura (talk) 21:50, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- Would you be willing to go and look at the changes made and give an opinion about whether it's sufficient? TheOzz took your advice insofar as removing the personal name of the wikipedia editor he had "outed", but it seems as though he may not grasp the extent to which he is engaging in ad hominem argument, personal attack, dragging in off-wiki interactions (the emails he shared), and so on. Here's the diff: [7] Thanks again, Taketime (talk) 13:46, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
- It looks like you guys are working rather constructively now, which is great. If the ad hominem attacks restart, let me know (maybe on my talk) and I'll try and get involved. But for now, I'd rather not disrupt progress by trying to force someone to take back comments. (I didn't seen anything so bad that it needed to be immediately removed, but if I missed something, let me know). --Bfigura (talk) 01:21, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
User:T-rex deleting comments from Talk:Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
User:T-rex has deleted my comments from Talk:Saint Vincent and the Grenadines here (although he partially restored that edit), here, here, and here. He did not provide an appropriate edit rationale explaining why he was removing my comments. When I placed a request on his talk page to stop doing this, he responded only by removing that with an edit summary "like this?" Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 21:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- This user has once again removed my comments from the talk page, after I placed a notice about this report on that page. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 00:10, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
rude comment by someone falsely accusing me of spamming
I uploaded one photograph which is a sign associated with a well-known company which is related to both the city of Antigo, Wisconsin and fishing tackle. I then linked that photo within two articles that contain data related to the text on the sign.
Upon returning to Wikipedia, I noticed that I had a message awaiting me. Upon navigating to it I was shown the comments pasted at the bottom of this message.
I feel this person is rude for accusing me of spamming or promoting a business. I had no such thought in my mind.
A simple mention that my content was not acceptable, and hopefully an explanation why it was not, would suffice.
I hope other editors of Wikipedia content are not as rude as the asshole "Geronimo20." Not only is the person rude, they do not accept personal email so that I could discuss the matter with them directly. It would be most beneficial if content editors could be contacted if they initiate an action that directly affects another registered Wikipedia user who has submitted content.
As the situation stands, I uploaded a photograph and attempted to associate it with two existing articles. Asshole "Geronimo20" took offense at it for some unknown reason and I still do not know why he/she accuses me of spamming.
I would appreciate it if someone with a more congenial manner than "Geronimo20" informed me what was wrong with my attempts to add to the Wikipedia database. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hoodoo (talk • contribs) 23:48, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
“ | Stop spamming Wikipedia with promotion images as you did with Antigo, Wisconsin and Fishing in Ohio. Wikipedia is not an advertising channel for the business you are trying to promote. --Geronimo20 (talk) 22:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC) | ” |
- Okay, there are several things wrong with this complaint. I'll address them in order:
- First off, this is not really a Wikiquette issue. The warning you received was blunt, at worst, but falls in line with the accepted warnings that users can receive for contributing unacceptable content to the Wiki. Given that the image and information that you posted was in relation to a commercial company and was provided without context to otherwise well-developed articles, I can see how Geronimo would see your contribution as spam. Whether that was your intention or not, that's what it looked like, and had I been the first one to see that appear in the article, I likely would have given you the same sort of warning. (I would have used a standard user warning template, which is worded less bluntly, but otherwise very similar to what Geronimo said.) Please see WP:SPAM and WP:NOT for more information. (On this note, the worst I could say about Geronimo's warning was that it might touch on WP:BITE, but it does not appear to be uncivil or in assumption of bad faith.)
- Second, you seem to be assuming that Geronimo was acting in bad faith when he reverted your edits and left you the warning. By saying that he's taken offense to your contributions, you are making a likely incorrect assumption about his intentions. It is standard practice here on Wikipedia to quickly revert edits that are seen as disruptive. Now, we're not perfect and we sometimes make mistakes, but the general rule of thumb is: If you are bold and add something, and someone else reverts it, the next thing to do is to take it to the Talk page and work toward building a consensus of having your content included. It may be that you come to a better understanding about why your content isn't appropriate for that particular article, but may be appropriate elsewhere.
- Finally, calling Geronimo an "asshole" is certainly not going to help you. That is a blatant violation of WP:CIVIL and constitutes a direct personal attack against him. It is the sort of thing that will get you reported here on the Wikiquette Alerts board, and if it continues, it can be escalated to Administrators' Noticeboard. If you are upset at Geronimo for leaving you that warning, you should first cool off, then try talking to him directly on his User Talk page to express your feelings in a constructive way. Boards such as this one should only be used if you are unable to work things out directly with the person you're having a conflict with.
- I hope this helps. Please let us know if you have any questions. Thank you. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 23:48, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- BTW, for reference, here is the most appropriate standard warning that you would have received if it came from me:
“ | ![]() |
” |
- looks like time to change our standard messages then. All that can really be said is that oner editor thought it seemed to be promotional material, and we should not be making pronouncements to contributors of that judgmental sort. Yes we have to delete the articles, and we have to say why, but we should not be using terms like that except after several continued insertions of the sort. That's one of the reasons i usually write my own messages. of course, that means I cant use an automatic program for them and I have to think about what I'm saying. DGG (talk) 04:18, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Frankly, I'm not sure how else to phrase the message. Putting the logo and brand name of a commercial company in an article about a city, particularly in its infobox, is going to look like spam, no matter how politely you put it. The standard message exists because we get a LOT of spam, as you can imagine. So when something is added that fits the pattern, we deal with it in the standard manner. Nothing personal, mind you. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 05:04, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Conflict about national football team articles
Fasach Nua (talk · contribs) has created a conflict by adding a OR tag to the notable/famous player sections of dozens of national football team articles despite the protests of many editors and the urging that they bring the issue to WT:FOOTY. Because these sections have been in the articles for years uncontested, my position is that they should be removed pending the development of a criteria for inclusion in these sections. The main problem is that Fasach Nua has accused me of trolling his user page, when all I am seeking is an acknowledgement that some form of arbitration has to take place in order to prevent an edit war over dozens of articles. Unfortunately, in the mean time Fasach Nua has removed all of my relevant comments from his user page, making arbitration that much more difficult. He repeatedly removes even my attempts at a peace offer without reading them or acknowledging the process. It is hard for WP to be a collaborative project without the acknowledgement of the proper process when there are disputes. As he will no longer listen to or even acknowledge my comments on the issue, I'm hoping that a third party could intervene. -- Grant.Alpaugh 15:16, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
This user and an unregistered IP (98.216.128.107) has left a string of messages on my talk in response to my reversion of his spamvertising edits to MIT ([8], [9], [10]) and later tried to blank them using an unregistered account . Talk edits to User:Madcoverboy include calling me a moron, refusing to engage in a dialogue by blanking comments, etc.: [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] Looking at Sitnikov's talk page, he has engaged in a series of actions that have been warned against in connection with spamvertising. As always I try to WP:AGF, but it seems the user is trying really hard to get blocked. Madcoverboy (talk) 17:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm probably a bit close to some of these issues to form a neutral view, so I though I'd mention it here. In general I've noticed that comments by Qworty in AfD debates can be uncivil, especially in regards to self-published authors. This seems to have come to a bit of a head at this AfD, but there are other examples floating around. While Qworty does good work, I'm concerned that some remarks unfairly characterize other editors, and may warrant a suggestion to tone comments down a tad from someone who can take a more neutral perspective. - Bilby (talk) 13:57, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
This is an odd case. His user page is a slew of random userboxes and his "pet subject" seems to be Espanola, New Mexico. Not such a bad thing, but his most recent edits have caused me concern. He will not interact with other users, insists on blanking his talk page and is edit warring to some extent with his most recent article on James H. Rodriguez Elementary; he keeps removing the cleanup notices. It's totally unsourced and bordering on nonsense with the allegations of the place being haunted. Could someone please have a word with him? Thanks. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 18:36, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Sounds a lot like these guys. ... discospinster talk 20:34, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
User:Cowicide's incivility
I don't exactly know what to do here, but I am requesting a third party to review what is happening. I shall give a quick overview:
I removed a large section of OR from an article, he put it back. We had a small edit war until I proposed a small solution: that we insert the material into the body text of the article. This was about an hour after I blanked it for the last time. We made up, etc. Awhile later he posts what I see as a basic attack, telling me and other users that I'm a liar. I assume he didn't bother to check the history of the article, and assumed I blanked the section after I spoke with him. I noted this to him, and he didn't seem to care. It just downgrades from there with him, but I continued to stay civil.— DædαlusT@lk / Improve 20:55, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Details needed, please. Which article, to start? Diffs would be useful too. - Denimadept (talk) 21:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
This person is editing articles and putting tags while not even being an administrator. This user has used personal attacks towards Wikipedia New Mexican Members he has only edited their articles and my own and say I don't communicate with other users enough that's fine. Maybe I do not beleive in talking to other users as much as he does. This user has made accusations I have a slew of random userboxes well that is why I don't use or create my own. He has called my common editing of information of Espanola, NM a (PET PROJECT) he has not thought maybe I have an intrest in this neighboring town. I happen to be an alumni of James H. Rodriguez Elementary and I have seen erie things go on inside the school. The reason I delete my cleanup notices is they pile up and start taking over the page and it looks hideous. I'll will leave this at this discospinster has the odacity of saying I have a slew of random user boxes while he has many as well while is it not allowed a Wikipedia User may have as much userboxes as they please. Please talk to him someone. If not I will have to request a removal of discospinster. Thank You. Diamond Joe Quimby (talk) 00:28, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- User:discospinster has been "editing articles"?! gasp Can't have that being done by just anyone, can we? Oh wait...
- It's perfectly realistic for someone to say, "wow, that's a whole lot of usernames suddenly feeling an urge to add information about New Mexico schools; is it really coincidental?" It's also realistic for someone to say, "don't delete the cleanup notices on your user page" when you haven't done any of the requested cleanup.
- Now, as to your request to User:Thomasalazar that he nominate you to be a bureaucrat specifically so that you can get User:discospinster kicked off WP... About all that can be said politely is that you might have better luck if you correctly link to the request for bureaucratship info and read how nominations work, as it appears your previous attempt has already been reverted (and not by User:discospinster or myself, btw). Dori (talk) 04:09, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- I think Diamond Joe Quimby is mistaken — I have never had any communication with this user at all. ... discospinster talk 14:52, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
This user has shown uncivility concerning Spore (video game) and it's talk page (as well as the mediation case on the article). Here's some evidence of his behavior:
- [17]: He yells at people during the case. He was notified here about it: [18]. It's the second time he's been reminded about it (I'm not sure of the first time).
- Maybe you should see what they're doing before it. Even the moderator started to notice that while I make concessions, the others remain obstinate.
- [19]: this was days later, and he once again did caps lock/bold yelling. The discussion wasn't a forum post, but he claimed it was. It should be noted: the Spore talk page has talk header, plus a notice saying to keep a cool head during discussions. I don't see his post as a minor slip up at all.
- [20]: here he removes a image overuse tag. It should've been discussed on talk before the tag was removed.
- And maybe you should read what I wrote - it should be discussed in the talk page before it's placed. I've had to deal with Talk page rules before in the same manner. I don't believe others should be exempt.
- [21]: I had re-added the tag, then he reverts it and assumes I don't think the article is important.
That's all the evidence I have so far. RobJ1981 (talk) 23:44, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Also adding this, this, and probably the worst one, this. I'm the mediator in this Spore mediation. Thanks Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 23:53, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- I have to say that I've been the target of it too. Besides what other people have gathered, you can find plenty of instances of it on the spore talk page. (Dismissing the opinions of others with words like "absurd" or "oops. want to try again?", sarcastic laughter, and lots of YELLING. These are more just icing on the cake compared to the bigger civility problems.) His/her comments don't personally bother me. But I can't turn a blind eye to the destructive impact it's had on community discussions. When it doesn't frustrate people into just giving up and leaving, it derails discussions so it's impossible to find the main point. He/she shows no willingness to compromise, except to unilaterally say what a new compromise should be. But most of all, it's the "yelling", belligerence, and insults that really have no place in wikipedia.
I might add that I stumbled into this situation because other editors were having trouble reaching a compromise on the spore article. I tried to mediate the differences of opinion. The others engaged in constructive disagreement. JAF1970 was destructive and seemed to enjoy creating conflict even though we actually agreed on several points. That is what ultimately led to formal mediation. I would trust Steve Crossin for a neutral opinion about how that went. The mediation has been going on for more than a month. Randomran (talk) 00:26, 2 May 2008 (UTC)- And I haven't been a target? Hm. Well, maybe I'm not passive-aggressive enough to get away with it, but I'm more direct and forthright, which is what you're supposed to be when you've worked in a magazine with other people in front of you. The stuff I've seen people here do would have gotten them fired. JAF1970 (talk) 03:58, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
MedCab is not formal mediation ;). Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 00:32, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- My bad. Either way. Other editors such as myself were brought in to find a compromise. That broke down, and Steve Crossin was brought in. Randomran (talk) 01:46, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I've been the target of people ignoring what I say, or agreeing then ignoring what I say, or people - who have been banned from Wikipedia later - spamming my talk page with unrelated stuff. I've been dealing with extremely rude people as well. I only give what I get, so perhaps you should be asking why I react this way. JAF1970 (talk) 03:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
What's worse is that I go out of my way to get the most correct information possible - and when I get irrefutable evidence - directly from Patrick Buechner and by extension Will Wright himself - I get people basically saying that Buechner and Wright don't know what kind of game they're actually making - from people who've never even touched the game. Add to that the sort of piling on and the noxious atmosphere I get at times, and you might understand why I get snappish, especially in light of the fact I've been dealing with this industry in one form or another for 30 years - and professionally in the last 15+. JAF1970 (talk) 04:43, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
The issue is that you are trying to use this source, ((gamestooge)/2008/04/29/feature-what-is-spore/ -- removed by User:KieferSkunk 03:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC) due to WP spam filter restrictions), appears to be a self published source, to nullify all other sources, the numerous amount that has been provided. Your proposal gives the idea that you are reluctant to compromise. That is the issue here. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 05:15, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I have also received and witnessed a number of uncivil comments from JAF1970, including many instances of dimsissive laughter, eye-rolling (yes, he actually typed "rolling eyes"), yelling, insults, straw man arguments, drawing absurd metaphorical comparisons like these: [22][23][24][25][26]... I can provide additional diffs if needed. He even accused two editors of sockpuppetry at one point. He seems to think that his experience in his profession makes his views on the proper content of the Spore article hold more weight than those of other editors, even within this discussion! [27] JAF1970 may bring my own comments to the table — I admit at one point I did lose my cool briefly, following a particularly heated argument — however, whereas I took a step back upon being warned that I was out of line, and have since kept considerably more distance than I really wanted to on the issues in order to avoid additional altercations, JAF unapologetically continues to step on everyone's toes. Dansiman (talk|Contribs) 14:52, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- As regards this particular situation, I certainly see quite a bit of ownership behavior going on, as well as a fair amount of assuming bad faith (some on both sides of the dispute) and a high tendency for JAF to personally attack other people when they disagree with his viewpoint. I hate to say it, but this dispute is hardly different from the dispute I had with him last year over Pac-Man Championship Edition. (That dispute was what introduced me to WQA in the first place.)
- I don't doubt JAF's ability to write good articles and find good sources, but I am disappointed by his tendency to assert ownership over them, especially when his attitude and behavior have the effect of driving other editors away and discouraging constructive collaboration. I would definitely consider some of his comments in this situation as stepping way over the line when it comes to civility policies, but since I have personally had issues with this editor in the past, I'm going to have to refrain from taking any action on it. If we're unable to resolve anything here on WQA, this will probably need to be escalated, either up along WP:DR or taken to the admin noticeboard if the behavior gets any worse. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 15:44, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Kiefer, um, miss some personal attacks on me that preceded it, huh? Unlike others, I don't know the intricacies of applying to a kangaroo court on Wikipedia. I also don't create sock puppets. I also don't rally people to my cause and hogpile, because there's plenty of people on Wikipedia I could summon in my defense (ie: User:SeanMooney, etc). I try to follow someone's advice to me about "feeding the trolls", like User:Sillygostly - check out his behavior, and tell me what a 37 year adult should do about a 15 year old kid behaving like that? (Well, 1. in real life, I wouldn't be forced to associate with children like that, and 2. on a magazine, he would be an intern for exactly 2 hours before being escorted from the premise.) I guess part of the frustration is that I can't expect to have one editor to report to like I would in a real magazine or (though I've never worked on one) encyclopedia/dictionary - instead, I have to deal with anyone at any age who can turn on a computer and log onto the internet, which is one HUGE problem with Wikipedia. (This does give me a great idea for an article to be published - probably on a major pub, too.) JAF1970 (talk) 16:39, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Whilst I do agree that JAF has been, at times, blunt, he has put a HUGE amount of time and effort into many articles, most of which I have seen in Spore. I know, from being a long standing contributor to Wiki, that you can become attached to particular articles that you have put a lot of time and effort into, and JAF himself has recognised that he has snapped at people on more than one occasion. I think that our own personalities can become too involved with Wiki at times, and when people say things that are clearly wrong about an article that you've helped a lot with, you can snap.
What I think we need to take away from this discussion is that I think that JAF feels frustrated by the comments of others, as do we all on articles we have worked hard on. As a result, he does often come across as aggressive. JAF, I have told you this before, and I stand by it, that you DO need to think REALLY carefully before replying to people, because while you may have the best intentions, your comments can seem too snappy at times. Other people, cut JAF some slack, we all know that it can be hard to see people with less knowledge than ourselves do some stupid things on articles we've been working hard on! I propose that you take a couple of weeks Wikibreak as I think that you can assume bad faith on the Spore article because you have become too attached to it. I will do my hardest to make sure that it's not destroyed! Spore hasn't been released yet, so no doubt there is far more discussion to be had! --Samtheboy (t/c) 18:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
JAF may be blunt and upfront to other users, but he is a good editor - the Spore article has been improved immensely thanks to him. It's clear that he's passionate and well-versed about the game. SeanMooney (talk) 19:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Re:Ownership - I don't think I "own" Spore (video game). I just don't want people to state speculation as fact (see: release date, Wii version etc) until it becomes fact. Furthermore, people tend to load on a lot of extraneous stuff. JAF1970 (talk) 20:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- JAF is a good editor, but that doesn't give him the right to be agressive towards people about it (in edit summaries, and talk pages). Everyone wants good articles here, but it's not productive to yell at people so much. I agree with the ownership comments. Once someone disagrees with his view then he's uncivil about it. Others have the right to edit the article and talk page. If they made a mistake, it's best to be calm about it. RobJ1981 (talk) 20:11, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- And that was the main point I was making in my comment above. As I said, I don't doubt JAF is a good editor - I've seen many instances where I think he's done an excellent job contributing to articles here on WP. But no matter how good someone is at editing, that doesn't mean they get to treat other people just any way they want. Two wrongs don't make a right, to address JAF's comment about "having to deal with people who treat him poorly".
- And, as I also mentioned, I've personally been on the receiving end of JAF's fury when I made a series of edits that he took exception to. Right from the very start, he was quite uncivil toward me - I remember being accused of blatantly vandalizing the article and trying to push my own agenda, and even after I admitted I made a few mistakes in my initial edits, he continued to push my face in those mistakes to the point where, if I'd been a new editor, I would have likely been driven off Wikipedia as a whole. I did eventually get drawn into firing back with personal attacks of my own, and the whole dispute spanned something like seven or eight Talk and WP pages (including WQA and MedCab). I learned a lot of lessons from that incident. But my point? I'm just citing an example where the behavior others are describing in this WQA report has also happened to me in the past - I see this as part of a longer-standing pattern with this particular editor. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 20:40, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- I didn't see this posted yet: [28]. JAF tells Sam to come here, because of a "troll attack" and they are in "full attack mode". Now that's very rude and not needed. Just because you don't agree with us JAF, doesn't give you the right to call us trolls. Your behavior isn't acceptable, so why should people ignore it? Being a good editor, doesn't make you immune to all other rules. RobJ1981 (talk) 22:04, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- A few more examples: [29], after some image removal (due to fair use). He overreacts on the talk page, claiming that the article is "destroyed" and "looks like garbage". Then he did this post: [30], where he claims the article is "ugly" and it's "useless" to being a useful article. Another: [31], he removed the original destroyed comment, and is now saying a team Spore member hates it. That looks like a conflict of interest to me. Lastly there is: [32], JAF continues to assume the people working on the game (as well as some people that just view the article), should determine how it's setup. Images are one thing, but they can hate the article setup all they want. They don't own the article itself, nor do they determine every edit to the article. RobJ1981 (talk) 21:11, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- I didn't see this posted yet: [28]. JAF tells Sam to come here, because of a "troll attack" and they are in "full attack mode". Now that's very rude and not needed. Just because you don't agree with us JAF, doesn't give you the right to call us trolls. Your behavior isn't acceptable, so why should people ignore it? Being a good editor, doesn't make you immune to all other rules. RobJ1981 (talk) 22:04, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- JAF is a good editor, but that doesn't give him the right to be agressive towards people about it (in edit summaries, and talk pages). Everyone wants good articles here, but it's not productive to yell at people so much. I agree with the ownership comments. Once someone disagrees with his view then he's uncivil about it. Others have the right to edit the article and talk page. If they made a mistake, it's best to be calm about it. RobJ1981 (talk) 20:11, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- I might be missing some context here, but those diffs do seem to point to a severe case of COI, as well as ownership issues. If a member of the Spore team is actually making comments about he "hates" the article, it would be up to that person to speak for himself - having JAF be his representative is not really good enough, I'm afraid. (Nor do I feel it's likely to make much of a difference, anyway.) I don't have anything to say about the actual content of the article, but Wikipedia is still bound by the same policies it was before, which include requiring reliable sources and giving equal and representative weight to various viewpoints.
- I see that JAF hasn't replied to anything more in this WQA, and by all indications he probably doesn't intend to, since he's already stated elsewhere that this is a "kangaroo court" and that we're a bunch of trolls. It seems unlikely that you'll make much more headway here - if the conflict continues past this point, I would recommend a Request for Comment on User Conduct. Until and unless there's some positive progress in this matter, I'm afraid I can't really help you much more here - my comments are already somewhat biased from previous conflicts. (If another WQA'er wants to step in and help, please feel free.) — KieferSkunk (talk) — 03:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
There is abslutely no need for this anymore. He has been indef blocked for Personal attacks or harassment of other users: ; disruptive editing; edit warring; breaches of copyright policy and per http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts&oldid=210182215#User:JAF1970
User Layla2008 continues to add, then when someone undoes the same unsubstantiated, uncited statements over and over, the Layla2008 posts them again. In one instance, Layla2008 wrote: (cur) (last) 00:32, 24 April 2008 Layla2008 (Talk | contribs) (10,903 bytes) (→References: you can run best friends, but you can't hide) (undo) CatDogLover (talk) 00:48, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Question? It appears you have not notified the editor of the issue. Perhaps you should talk to them before bringing it here. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 01:01, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
The post [33] by Mathieugp (talk) at Talk:Anti-Quebec_sentiment#Conspiracy_theory violates Wikiquette guidelines. Wikipedia is not a Soapbox. The discussion on Talk:Anti-Quebec_sentiment#Conspiracy_theory is about the problematic tone of the article, not a political/historical discussion of subject itself. Although Mathieugp (talk) makes some legitimate commentary that the name of the article may need to be changed and that the scope of the article needs to be narrowed, the bulk of the post advocates the POV of the article's topic: that there is widespread prejudice against Quebecers and French Canadians in Canada among English-speakers. He provides a long quote from the 1800's to back up this polemic claim. He sources this claim with a link to his personal web page that promotes Quebec independence see link.
Passionate advocacy on behalf of a political POV on Talk pages violates Wikiquette Soapboxing guidelines. So does self-promotion by providing links to a personal web page that also promote these views. The length and inappropriateness of the subject makes the legitimate dialog in the section difficult to follow.
I ask that Mathieugp(talk) correct this breach of wikiquette by removing the portions of his post that advocate his political opinion, the supporting quote, and the link to his personal web page. Talk pages are not the place to make political and historical points and promote personal projects. --soulscanner (talk) 07:58, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I checked their talk page, you haven't even left them a message. The best thing I'd advise you to do is first post them a message with your concerns, and discuss it on their talk page. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 08:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- I appreciate this commentary. I posted a message about a minute after I posted here. This breech of wikiquette has been going on for a longtime on related subjects, and it's been discussed ad nauseum at various discussion pages to no avail. If you would like examples, I can provide them, but I don't like rehashing and documenting old disputes (that would be another breech of wikiquette); I'd much rather get an outside third opinion on this instance. If these are indeed breeches of wikiquette, they should be documented; if they're not, I'll leave it alone and just ignore them. --soulscanner (talk) 08:30, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- The Wikiquette alert by Soulscanner (talk) (above) violates common sense which ought to be against some Wikiquette (what an awful word by the way). He describes "widespread prejudice against Quebecers and French Canadians in Canada among English-speakers" as "the POV of article". He says that I "source[d] this claim with a link to his personal web page that promotes Quebec independence". Finally, he proposes censorship of my comment based on his opinion that it is a "political and historical" point and that it "promote personal projects".
- First, that there is "widespread prejudice against Quebecers and French Canadians in Canada among English-speakers" is not "the POV of the article". That is what he inferred from reading the article, and most likely what made him not like it and post his comment that it "sounds like a conspiracy theory". The original article was a description of a phenomenon called Quebec bashing of which numerous journalists, including English-speaking ones sympathetic to Quebecers, have complained of. Numerous books have been written on the subject, the latest one being Quebec bashing : morceaux d'anthologie. Du Lac Meech à la délirante Jan Wong just this year. There was considerable opposition to the very existence of the article on such a controversial topic. While some of it was legitimate, the article indeed needing to be neutralized, most efforts came from people who simply did not like that such a thing could exist and be real, as real as any other social phenomenon. The links to the press articles in reference were removed as they were hosted on a site which republished them and it was unclear whether that site violated Canadian copyright rules or not. At some point, the article was renamed to what it is now. Already at that point I had signaled that as a consequence, the article needed to be completely reorganized as the content was not about "Anti-Quebec sentiment" in general, but about Quebec bashing. The reorganization of the contents never occurred. The principal contributor to the article (User:Liberlogos) has stopped taking care of the article, disgusted by the struggle he had to engage in to keep the article from being vandalized daily (I got this from word of mouth, as I know the person behind the user name).
- Second, I did not source what Soulscanner said I sourced. I sourced a quote from an article of the London and Westminster Review written by British philosopher John Stuart Mill in which he commented the affairs of the Canadas in 1838, just after the beginning of the civil war and before Lord Durham landed at Quebec. I confess guilty of sharing most of the political POV that Mill had on Quebec, the other colonies, Ireland and England. But I was not trying to advocate "The Ballot, Justice to Ireland, Justice to Canada" here. The reason I posted this was simply to illustrate how far back we can go when trying to reference observations made by various people, some of them quite notable and credible like Mill, on the misrepresentation and calumnies against popular politicians from Quebec.
- Third, the link indeed points to a copy of Mill's article that I personally wikified on a personal site of mine where I often publish English translations of French texts related to the history and politics of Quebec. The site indeed promotes the independence of Quebec, democracy, equality among nations, linguistic human rights and other related subjects. I could have given this link instead, but I chose to link the version of the article with the pretty images and wiki links. If really it directly violates some rule or even some official suggestion, I do not mind substituting one for the other. We can even remove it completely.
- As for the proposal to censor my comment, which includes a quote from Mill pertaining to the subject, supporting the point I am trying to make, I find it is rather shameful. I understand that Soulscanner might not be a great fan of Mill, but still, what he wrote on Quebec in 1838 is deeply related to the [original] subject of the article, that is delusional calumnies written on Quebecers who denounce the injustice of the British North American rule over Quebec now or denounced the injustice of British rule over all colonies in the 19th century.
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Pictogram_voting_wait.svg/20px-Pictogram_voting_wait.svg.png)
I am reporting User:Naruto134 for his discription of his edit on Destroy All Humans! Path of the Furon it is edit done on 01:58, 2 May 2008 it says "Fixes, and dude, do something about your horrible spelling. What are you, a preschooler?" the history page is here. Click Here Save The HumansTalk :) 21:09, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- While this is hardly the nicest thing to say, and it could have been said more civil, I think the best thing to do would be to go to the user's page and ask them about this. Generally, except in an extreme situation, a wikiquette alert should likely be filed after talking to the editor (either on their page, your page, or the article talk page). In addition, you should also contact this editor and let them offer an explanation. LonelyBeacon (talk) 22:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes i have asked now. But he hasnt repled so i just had remended him that he hasnt answered yet. Save The HumansTalk :) 18:15, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I will put a gentle reminder on his Talk Page about this. Hopefully it is just an error that (s)he is embarrassed about, and it will not happen again. LonelyBeacon (talk) 07:22, 4 May 2008 (UTC)- Actually, upon really exploring this editor's Talk Page, he has been warned several times before about this, and has deleted these warnings. This needs to be bumped up a level. LonelyBeacon (talk) 07:26, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- I have opened a report at WP:ANI. I will also report this to Naruto134. LonelyBeacon (talk) 18:10, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes i have asked now. But he hasnt repled so i just had remended him that he hasnt answered yet. Save The HumansTalk :) 18:15, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
User:87.194.247.89
Hi there, hopefully this is the right place for this, user 87.194.247.89, keeps making edits to articles including the University of Manchester Students' Union which I'm working on, to push his pov on the way we twinned with the university of An-najah. I now notice he's edited the page for An-Najah National University in a similar way. I've left a message on his talk page and stuff on the article's discussion board but I'm not really sure what to do next. Billsmith453 (talk) 11:44, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
User:Yorkshirian (again)
I'm becoming rather displeased and dismayed with User:Yorkshirian's abuse against myself, and would like some intervention. Yorkshirian seems to hold a bizarre prejudice (even racist sentiments) against me, keep calling me a "Lancastrian", when I'm not from Lancashire and implying somehow that it nullifies me as a worthwhile editor with a voice anyway (I have warned him I take offense several times too). Some facts/incidents:
- [34] - Warned about incivility and poor conduct.
- [35] -Calling others concerns trolling, and ([36]) that they are a timewaster.
- [37] - Abusive edits saying I'm a Lancastrian.
- Promised to behave following ANI.
- Blocked for WP:3RR.
- [38] - Saying I am a bad faith editor.
- [39] - Saying I troll.
- Saying I'm a random person from Lancashire, and I stick my nose in and other changes deface articles.
- [40] - Calling legitimate content changes vandalism.
- Being incivil on talk pages and working against consensus.
- [41] - Calling me a troll and a "Lancastrian", despite me warning him here (please read the thread) that I find it abusive and I'm not from Lancashire.
Given I feel disheartened, constantly abused with no intervention, and generally made to feel unwelcome on the project by Yorkshirian, I'm more than happy to suspend my content building and elevate this to full mediation and take this as high as possible. This simply can't go on unchecked anymore. --Jza84 | Talk 12:16, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- My concern with this editor User:Yorkshirian is his crediting me on the Yorkshire talk page Talk:Yorkshire with statements that I did not make, then implying that the were POV.--Harkey Lodger (talk) 12:27, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- I also have grave concerns over this editor and find dialogue with him incredibly adversarial and inpolite, which is a shame because he clearly has breadth of knowledge. He appears to have taken a dislike to me because I live in London. [42] There have been several attempts to persuade this editor to, well, be a bit nicer to people, (see his talk page and archive), but it just hasn't worked. Yorkshire-related articles are not easy places to make constructive contributions anymore. MRSC • Talk 12:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Many of the claims Jza84 makes in his attack/post in this section range from the proposterous to personal attacks made in an attempt to cover up his poor behaviour in regards to me by projecting. For example, in the very first lie/line Jza84 launches a personal attack on me and calls me a "racist" despite the fact that I am probably the same race as him and have never made a racist comment on Wikipedia. This is an unabashed smear by Jza84, a person who on their page cites complaining about races as a "personal hobby". Jza84 seems to have a problem that he is from the historic county of Lancashire, which his hometown of Shaw and Crompton falls within. This is very strange, off the wall behaviour which is certainly in no way mainstream within the United Kingdom. Jza84 expects people (in this case me) to "randomly guess" that he is ashamed of his roots and considers it a form of "abuse" or "attack". Its extremely unreasonable for him to think any normal person should be able to guess such an unorthodox, radical world view.
Despite this, Jza84 insists on editing articles which are highly controversial in relation to the counties of the United Kingdom. For example he attacked the article of cultural group Saddleworth White Rose Society, a group entirely centered around their affilation to the historic county of Yorkshire, by removing a category which shows they are based within said historic county. Jza84 followed me to that article and made an unabashed attempt to antagonise by attempting to sever their cultural links, despite his opinion not following with that of the United Kingdom government or the United Kingdom royal family which rules him (explicitly, Prince Charles, the future king).[43]
I first came across this user in January, when he was trying to propagate a historcially insignificant cotton town, which just happens to be from the county he comes from, as the "second city of the United Kingdom". This despite it never having any official status, or real, historic recognition in such an area. Nevertheless, he decided that, after this encounter he would follow me around this website and attempt to antagonise me, all the while hiding behind smarmily worded comments, which his actions did not match his comments. Early last month, Jza84, decided that he would like to play again. So he followed me to the article on Beverley and he began to troll me edits. However, he didn't stop at one article, he violated WP:POINT and went on to do the same thing on another article I was editing![44] All the while refusing to take part in any discussion on the talkpage,[45] and leaving smarmy automated messages on my talk. Hypocritically warning me of an edit war, in which he had instigated.[46] Clearly antagonistic behaviour, he seems to have a problem that I'm from Yorkshire and like to contribution to articles relation to the Holy Land. If I am improving any article on the county, Jza will not be far behind trying to wind me up.
For example today. He comes to the Yorkshire article, trolls me with an edit summary of "see talk" despite the fact that he had not even contributed anything at all to the talkpage in question and that on the talk it had been solidly presented that the information which he put back in the article was incorrect.[47] If that was enough spitting on Yorkshire related articles for a day, he then went on to commit the Saddleworth White Rose Society atrocity mentioned earlier in this post.[48] When I messaged him on his talk, requesting an explination for his antagonistic treatment of myself, he basically put across that he couldn't really be bothered to enter the discussion on the talk (and still hasn't) or read the message which I presented before his edit. He then said he was going to report me for saying he is Lancastrian?? I don't understand. This message is very long, I realise, but Jza's playing the victim and attacks on me are so full of it, I just can't accept the way he is behaving when I'm trying to edit articles about my homeland. - Yorkshirian (talk) 13:57, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- This summarises well the tone and approach Yorkshirian takes to discussion and it is unfortunate he has decided to refer to a long-standing, well respected, hugely constructive and trusted editor as "a troll" again here. I note the links he cites as evidence for his rebuttal do not point to specific diffs. MRSC • Talk 14:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- And how do you describe Jza's attack on me, claiming I'm a "racist"? That is the definition of trolling for a reaction, as I have never made racist comments anywhere, let alone on a website. Whether Jza has snuggled up to certain people while he has been here, is not a vaild excuse or margin for the behavour of the kind catalogued above and backed up strongly by the diffs. Whether you "like" him or not is entirely irrelevent. - Yorkshirian (talk) 15:15, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- Q.E.D.--Harkey Lodger (talk) 14:49, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'm still hoping a third-party person can take a look at this. Clearly, there are three editors who have concerns with User:Yorkshirian and I think the diffs I've cited speak for themselves. There are several problems with Yorkshirian's reply; this pseudo "homeland"/"them-vs-us" attitude that somehow excludes my right to contribute or change a "Yorkshire" article (Anti-Lancastrian sentiments) are a disgrace (would Anti-French or Anti-Black be tollorated?).
- I think you should be making less ad hominem attacks Jza. Yes, the evidence speaks for itself in the four lengthy paragraphs I wrote, backed up with links. However your continued whining attempting to personally attack me by painting me as a "racist" is simply pathetic and makes you look ridiculous. Counties within Britain which are bordered now are "racially" different are they? Sort it out.
- You know full well why I made a comment in the edit summary of the Saddleworth White Rose Society with the word Lancastrian, after you had attentionally defased one of their categorys, only seconds after you had hit and run attacked the Yorkshire article with the "see talk"[49] nonsense where you never (and still haven't) entered talkpage discussion.[50] You understook full well what you were doing, just as you understand full well what you are doing with this ridiculous "racist" personal attack you have yet to apologise for. Antagonising in the hopes of eliciting a reaction. Well guess what Jza? if you go out of your way to antagonise me you will get a reaction. I do not care who you have a little clique with or if you hide behind smarmy wording while actually editing in an antagonistic manner. I will call you on it, a spade is a spade. And I hope a third party will review what you have been doing.
- You have yet to explain any of your actions. In fact in your main post, you are so desperate to whine about me that you're referencing things from months ago in an unrelated dispute to you, which I had overwhelming consensus from no less than three admins from. You seem to be making a strawman.[51] However I'm waiting for your explination for the way you have intentionally, culturally attacked the Saddleworth White Rose Society in an extremely offensive way, against the wishes of the organisation,[52], the United Kingdom government,[53] and the future king of the United Kingdon Prince Charles of Wales.[54] Apart from it being a balant attempt to antagonise and get a rise out of any proud Yorkshire person, or specifically myself as it was my edits you followed, what is your explination for this behaviour? You may not have used forthright wording, but make no mistake, your action are ten times the "attack" that any comment that has ever come from me is. - Yorkshirian (talk) 01:14, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Can someone uninvolved with this please offer some insight or comment? MRSC • Talk 05:12, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'm reviewing. Give me a few minutes. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 06:00, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, after reviewing the diffs and some related history, I think it's pretty clear that Yorkshirian's behavior has been quite abrasive. I see many attempts on the part of multiple editors to deal with Yorkshirian in a very civil manner - good for you guys - and most of those appear to have been met with either uncivil responses or signs that he intended to ignore those messages. I have no comment on the actual content dispute going on here, since I have no knowledge of the matter, but I find myself in agreement with Jza and MRSC.
- Yorkshirian: I would strongly advise you to go read WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, WP:VAND and WP:CONSENSUS, and make sure you're familiar with them. Many of your comments throughout the various content discussions have either stepped over or bordered on incivility and personal attacks, and your comments appear tinged with a disdain for editors from specific regions. While you are certainly entitled to your opinions about other editors, if you wish to contribute constructively to Wikipedia content, you need to play by the rules put forth in its policies, and currently you don't appear to be. Calling others trolls, accusing them of vandalism, and generally discrediting them with statements about where they live or what not, is only going to cause rifts in your project. Additionally, it appears you've acted more than once in the absence of consensus, and multiple editors in the project have tried to direct your attention to where a consensus discussion was taking place. This gives others the impression that you're exerting ownership over the article(s) in question, whether that's what you intend to do or not.
- You are not obligated to apologize to others (though if you have any intention of reconciling with people you are at conflict with, it often helps, and shows that you're willing to take responsibility for your part of a conflict). But at the very minimum, I would very much advise you to be sure you're familiar with the policies and agree to abide by them. If you believe strongly that a certain piece of content should or should not be included in an article, work toward consensus through constructive discussion - for example, pointing out that you have an authoritative book on the subject is good. Telling people that "common sense should be kicking in right about now" is inflammatory and unnecessary.
- I hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 06:21, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- (Edit conflict) Additional comments to Yorkshirian: I see that you've taken particular personal offense to Jza's comment in the initial WQA report that your comments bordered on (or seemed to contain) racist sentiments. In most instances, this sort of comment would itself be a violation of WP:AGF and possibly a personal attack, but given the history of the dispute between you guys, I don't think I can really fault him for thinking this. With edit summaries such as "remove some trolling of the catergory by a Lancastrian", you are specifically stating that because he's a "Lancastrian" (something he denies being, but that's beside the point), his edits are automatically "trolling". This does, in fact, impart a feeling of racial (or at least regional) superiority - again, that might not have been your intention, but that's why it's important to watch what you type here. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 06:41, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you.--Harkey Lodger (talk) 07:11, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I have made several attempts at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about counties to draw him into the conversation here. I hope we can work something out so future discussions will be on a civil and constructive basis. MRSC • Talk 07:59, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Here Yorkshirian ignored WP:AGF and accused me of being biased! I was the one who started a discussion on the talk page and made sure another editor made the changes to ensure that I wasnt directly involved. I found this user offensive and quite plainly...rude! --Cameron (t|p|c) 13:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I hope there will be some indication of resolve on the part of Yorkshirian to significantly improve his conduct. I have asked him to make such a commitment here on his talk page. If this is not forthcoming could I have some indication, from those who have been involved with this user, that they would support a user conduct RFC? MRSC • Talk 13:41, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- I was extremely unhappy about this supposed quote here.I would never have made such a statement.--Harkey Lodger (talk) 15:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Is the objectionable behavior continuing after I left my replies above? If so, or if it does continue after those comments, then you certainly may request an RFC/U or whatever other form of dispute resolution you feel is necessary and appropriate. But if nothing more has happened since my replies, I'd give it some time first before going that route - give him time to read over the comments and respond if he wishes, and see if it changes anything. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 15:47, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Harkey is still whinging about the same older comment he/she "brought to light" in only the second post of this section. However, I think the "advise" you offered was very one sided. You pretty much admitted that Jza's claim of "racist" was a personal attack, yet you offered him no "advise" to disuade him from further extreme attacks. Also I feel you pretty much ignored all the evidence I put forward on Jza's behaviour in which I feel he has been intentionally trolling me on certain articles in regards to Yorkshire in an attempt to get a rise (backed up strongly by links). He even continues to do this evem since opening this section, here is a clear example, all the while showing up here and pretending to play the victim.
- Whether or not you looked at this one sidedly because my user name is in the title of this section, I do not know. Even mildly suggesting I should apologise to somebody who has out and out attacked my name by calling me a "racist" when I'm not, is well... fairly unreasonable to say the least. I would like you to directly review Jza's behaviour which I detailed in my orginal replies in this section to give less of a one sided offering of advise, because up to now you haven't addressed any of what he has done. Thank you. - Yorkshirian (talk) 04:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
This position and edit summaries like this are unfortunate. We need to move this on quickly so we can get back to constructive editing. MRSC • Talk 04:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Unfortunate, is even after opening this section, that your friend Jza should follow me to yet another article and wholesale remove a large chunk of work in an attempt to antagonise (again). Please explain how you feel this behaviour is acceptable. Continued and blatant attempts at antagonisation such as that documented in Jza's behvaiour is not constructive or acceptable. Also if you consider me saying in that edit summary "Jza you seem not to have learned a lesson" as something worth highlighting as "unfortunate", then you must be wrapped in cotton wool. How do you expect me to reply to his following and destruction; "Oh Jza, the way you followed me to this article and just ripped out the work I've just added is so great and nice of you". Reality check, please. - Yorkshirian (talk) 04:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
User 12.111.29.12
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
This anonymous user who signs his posts "Bert" keeps placing uncivil reamrks on Talk: Ayn Rand. I, and others have removed the comments but he keeps putting them back and threatening other editors with banning if we delete them. You can see the edit here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ayn_Rand&diff=prev&oldid=209782356 Ethan a dawe (talk) 13:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ethan's not telling the whole truth. Oops. It turns out that Bert wrote the comment then Ethan and another Randist kept deleting it, while I kept undeleting it (and I think Bert's done it, too). Ethan's also not mentioning that he wrote some nasty little comments on that very same page, and that some of them were deleted by third parties. Or even that he's been summarily removing Edward's comments. What else hasn't Ethan been telling you? Things to think about, before you allow him to manipulate you. 00:23, 4 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.221.174 (talk)
- SIGH Edward's last comments were left, as they didn't include his usual insults. Edward is also a blocked user avoiding the block (spinoza1111) Anyways, the edit histories tell the truth. Read them don't take my word for it. Ethan a dawe (talk) 00:28, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ethan: Per Talk page policy, you should not remove comments that have been left on a talk page, even if they are uncivil. If they are just blatant nonsense or vandalism, that's a different story, but it appeared in this case that "Bert" had a point to make, and that should be kept in the talk discussion, if for no other reason than for historical purposes. If it is an uncivil comment, it can be dealt with through this and other channels. But unless it's just flat-out vandalism, please leave it there. Ignore it or respond to it as you wish, but keep in mind WP's policies: WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, WP:POINT and WP:NPA.
- If you feel that the comment needs to have action taken against it, you can report it to WP:ANI. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 06:55, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Hi Kiefer, I understand. I removed the comments of Edward Nilges based on http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=207243151 As for Bert's uncivil remark, another editor undid them, he put them back, and then I removed it again. Based on your comments here and reading the policies I won't do that again. I've stopped editing those pages as I was tired of fighting with the abbusive anons. Hopefully someone can do something about them, but, if not, I expect that time will see them leaving. Ethan a dawe (talk) 12:54, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Probably for the best. If you see clear abuse, feel free to reopen this report, or take it to WP:ANI as appropriate. :) — KieferSkunk (talk) — 16:10, 4 May 2008 (UTC)