→Animated GIFs in infoboxes: Gifs are warranted in rare cases |
Fyunck(click) (talk | contribs) →Opening rationale and instructions: probably should equal out the reasons to be fair |
||
Line 686: | Line 686: | ||
<small>some possible</small> Reasons to '''Oppose'''- |
<small>some possible</small> Reasons to '''Oppose'''- |
||
*[[WP:OVERLINK]] (spirit of the guideline) and that this issue is already covered there |
*[[WP:OVERLINK]] (spirit of the guideline) and that this issue is already covered there |
||
*It looks less professional and more cluttered |
|||
*Harder on the eyes to follow with continual alternating colors |
|||
*Multiple links in an infobox are simply unnecessary |
|||
<br> |
<br> |
||
Revision as of 09:09, 23 May 2015
Policy | Technical | Proposals | Idea lab | WMF | Miscellaneous |
- Table of contents
- First discussion
- End of page
- New post
If you want to propose something new that is not a policy or guideline, use the proposals section.
If you have a question about how to apply an existing policy or guideline, try the one of the many Wikipedia:Noticeboards.
This is not the place to resolve disputes over how a policy should be implemented. Please see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution for how to proceed in such cases.
Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequent proposals and the responses to them.
RfC: Guidance on commas before Jr. and Sr.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
What should Wikipedia's guidance be regarding commas before Jr. and Sr.? 02:07, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
Options
- Option 1—no commas, no exceptions:
Do not place a comma before Jr., Sr., or Roman numeral designation. Examples: Sammy Davis Jr., Otis D. Wright II
- Option 1A—no commas, subject and source exception:
Do not place a comma before Jr., Sr., or Roman numeral designation unless it is the preference of the subject or sources concerning the subject. Examples: Sammy Davis, Jr., Otis D. Wright II
- Option 2—use commas, no exceptions:
Place a comma before Jr. or Sr., but not before a Roman numeral designation. Examples: Martin Luther King, Sr., Otis D. Wright II
- Option 2A—use commas, subject and source exception:
Place a comma before Jr. or Sr., but not before a Roman numeral designation. A comma before Jr. or Sr. should be omitted if it is the preference of the subject or sources concerning the subject. Examples: Martin Luther King, Sr., Otis D. Wright II
- Option 3—allow both, with internal consistency:
Editors may use or omit a comma before Jr. or Sr. so long as each article is internally consistent. Do not place a comma before a Roman numeral designation. Examples: Sammy Davis Jr. or Martin Luther King, Sr., but Otis D. Wright II, not Otis D. Wright, II
- Option 4: No guidance (remove WP:JR)
Note: This RfC only concerns the comma before Jr. and Sr. If the result allows for that comma, then a follow-up discussion may be necessary regarding guidance on a comma after Jr. or Sr.
Relevant recent discussions
- Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biographies#Comma_after_.22Jr..22.2C_.22Sr..22.2C_etc..3F
- Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biographies#RfC:_Comma_or_no_comma_before_Jr._and_Sr.
- Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biographies#Jr._.28again.29
- Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Closure_Review_Request_at_MOS_page
- Talk:John D. Rockefeller, Jr. Memorial Parkway#Requested move 2 March 2015
- Talk:Samuel Goldwyn, Jr.#Requested move 1 March 2015
- Talk:Barack Obama, Sr.#Requested move 4 March 2015
- Talk:Martin Luther King, Sr.#Requested move 4 March 2015
- Talk:Martin_Luther_King_Jr.#Requested_move_18_April_2015
Pings to previous participants
|
---|
User:Herostratus User:sroc User:W. P. Uzer User:HandsomeFella User:Dicklyon User:Calidum User:GiantSnowman User:Robert McClenon User:Tony1 User:Cinderella157 User:Atsme User:Randy Kryn User:DrKiernan User:FactStraight User:Collect User:PBS User:Blueboar User:Musdan77 User:RGloucester User:Amakuru User:Hobit User:Cuchullain User:George Ho User:AjaxSmack User:Imzadi1979 User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) User:In ictu oculi User:MONGO User:SarekOfVulcan User:Vegaswikian User:Red Slash User:CookieMonster755 User:Tarc User:Loriendrew User:SmokeyJoe User:Chasewc91 User:Lugnuts
I'm pretty sure this attempt to ping cannot work. The mechanism requires a signature, for one thing, and has number limits for another; I did not get the ping. Dicklyon (talk) 02:24, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
|
Jr. comma RfC: Survey
- 3, 2A, 1A. Both styles are widely accepted, and both should be allowed in Wikipedia. Because the comma before Jr. may in fact be the majority style in reliable sources - do your own searches and see - banning (or systematically removing) the comma is unnecessary and will be frustrating and confusing to editors. It is also counter to very regular practice on WP allowing multiple styles, as long as articles are internally consistent. See for example:
- MOS:SERIAL: Editors may use either convention so long as each article is internally consistent
- MOS:EMDASH: There are two options. Use either unspaced em dashes or spaced en dashes consistently in an article.
- MOS:DATEFORMAT: Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular English-speaking country should generally use the more common date format for that country (month-day for the US, except in military usage; day-month for most others; articles related to Canada may use either consistently).
- MOS:NUM: In general, use a comma to delimit numbers with five or more digits to the left of the decimal point. Numbers with four digits are at the editor's discretion: 12,345, but either 1,000 or 1000.
- MOS:GNL: Ships may be referred to using either feminine forms ("she", "her", "hers") or neutral forms ("it", "its"). Either usage is acceptable, but each article should be internally consistent and employ one or the other exclusively.
- Editors should not use their worries over the proper usage of a comma after Jr. to eliminate the comma before. If, however, we do favor using or omitting the comma, we should allow for exceptions based on the demonstrated preference of the subject or sources. Dohn joe (talk) 02:07, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
- Option 3 or 4. As Dohn joe explained, both styles are considered acceptable. Wikipedia does not enforce consistent spellings across articles per MOS:ENGVAR (our article on tire uses American spelling, unless we want to discuss motorcycle tyres, for example). Wikipedia allows discretion on which date system to use. Those are on top of the issues Dohn joe pointed out. Also note, "written rules themselves do not set accepted practice; rather, they document already existing community consensus regarding what should be accepted and what should be rejected," (per WP:BURO) so we should base our guidelines on comma usage relative to Jr. and Sr. on accepted practice. And that accepted practice has been to decide on a case-by-case basis, just as we do on date formats, varieties of English, etc. Calidum T|C 03:33, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
- 3. Basically, follow the sources. I would not expect Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. (or Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.) to be moved for the sake of conformance to a standard divorced from common usage. bd2412 T 03:46, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
- Some sources do drop the comma in Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. So can we. Same with Sr., though his name more often appears without this disambiguator; it is not really part of his name. Dicklyon (talk) 04:58, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
- I would actually feel a lot better about a "follow the sources" guidance here than with option 3, if people are not cool with option 1. I moved a ton of "XXX, Jr." articles on Mexican wresters, where the Jr. designation is pretty common but almost never found with a comma in sources, yet someone had gone and moved move of them to the with-comma version. Consistently omitting the comma, however, would still be preferred, as a modern and widely recommended style in most current style guides. Dicklyon (talk) 04:02, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- 1 – The last 3 editions of the Chicago Manual of Style, as well as a majority of other recent guides (according to one source quoted at the first discussion linked above), recommend dropping the traditional comma, for various reasons that have been well addressed in the previous discussions. Dohn Joe suggests that "Editors should not use their worries over the proper usage of a comma after Jr. to eliminate the comma before", but that is indeed an important worry, and a good reason to avoid commas, since, as a perusal of articles will show, it is so common for unknowing editors to get this wrong. All the guides say that if you use a comma before, you need a matching comma after (except at the end of a sentence or clause); yet even our National Park Service employees routinely mess this up. Leaving out the commas altogether will make for a cleaner and more uniform and modern presentation, more in accord with current grammar and usage guides. Dropping the comma will not be confused by anyone with attempting to change a name, I'm sure. Dicklyon (talk) 04:53, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
- Of course it changes someone's name. Look at Martin Luther King, Jr. The official name of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Memorial in Washington, D.C. (notice that the official name doesn't include the comma after "Jr.", as you suggest is needed. That's one of the most useless and commonly broken ground rules in overly strict and legalistic rule books, and is rightly ignored by most sources) includes the comma. The official National Holiday named for him includes the comma. His own books printed during his lifetime contain the comma. His gravestone includes a chiseled comma, a comma which will stay on that stone and not be removed, no matter what the Chicago Manual of Style says. It was his name, and to change it goes totally against both sources and against it being Dr. King's common name. Since you unilaterally removed the comma from Dr. King's main article and many other articles with his name in the title, listing them as uncontroversial moves, and because you haven't held an RM on the Memorial or National Holiday pages, which still properly include the comma, no requested move discussion has taken place. Randy Kryn 3:14 16 April, 2015 (UTC)
- Why do so many drop the comma then, when trying to honor him? Dicklyon (talk) 04:30, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- Of course it changes someone's name. Look at Martin Luther King, Jr. The official name of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Memorial in Washington, D.C. (notice that the official name doesn't include the comma after "Jr.", as you suggest is needed. That's one of the most useless and commonly broken ground rules in overly strict and legalistic rule books, and is rightly ignored by most sources) includes the comma. The official National Holiday named for him includes the comma. His own books printed during his lifetime contain the comma. His gravestone includes a chiseled comma, a comma which will stay on that stone and not be removed, no matter what the Chicago Manual of Style says. It was his name, and to change it goes totally against both sources and against it being Dr. King's common name. Since you unilaterally removed the comma from Dr. King's main article and many other articles with his name in the title, listing them as uncontroversial moves, and because you haven't held an RM on the Memorial or National Holiday pages, which still properly include the comma, no requested move discussion has taken place. Randy Kryn 3:14 16 April, 2015 (UTC)
- 1 per Dicklyon. No fuss, no muss, no edit wars. No commas. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:54, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
- Wouldn't forcing every page to include commas also eliminate the fuss, muss and edit wars? Calidum T|C 22:07, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Calidum: Yes. Both are solutions to that problem. The difference is small, but my preference stems from a general opinion that unnecessary things should be omitted, no matter how small. But I'd be almost as happy with unconditional inclusion — the main thing is saving editor time that would serve the project better elsewhere, and eliminating one unnecessary opportunity for editor conflict. To make a big issue of this comma is classic pedantic overthink, in my opinion. I would be the last to argue that correctness on style and language is not important in an encyclopedia, but things need to be weighed against their cost. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:57, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
- Wouldn't forcing every page to include commas also eliminate the fuss, muss and edit wars? Calidum T|C 22:07, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
- 3 or 4 - Deep-six the guideline or keep the options open per sources and common name For example, Martin Luther King, Jr. has the comma included as part of his common name, both during his lifetime and since. It appears on the covers of all of his books published while he was alive, is the official name of his Washington, D.C. Memorial, is the official name of his U.S. national holiday, and last but not least, is carved into the very stone of his grave. Since the man's grave will carry the comma into eternity (or what's left of it), I can't see how Wikipedia wouldn't use it as his official and common name. The example of Sammy Davis Jr., on the other hand, seems fine, because he removed the comma during his lifetime (see his albums). So the option should be there to use either, depending on common sourced name. Randy Kryn 23:38 15 April, 2015 (UTC)
- 1: Drop the commas except where absolutely necessary. CMOS has moved forward toward dropping them, and it's a "minor typographic change" that can be made without comment and without changing the meaning of quoted text, just its stylistic presentation. It's just a simpler rule to follow than to constantly be on the lookout for missing commas following names. Imzadi 1979 → 02:17, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- User:Imzadi1979: what does "absolutely necessary" mean for you here? Dohn joe (talk) 12:54, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- Option 1: Lets try to avoid edit wars as much as possible. No confusing or arguing on Requested moves. Also per Dicklyon's comments. CookieMonster755 (talk) 02:34, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- Option 3: I never understood why we changed the titles and didn't just add the extra comma after the Jr and Sr. that is demanded by the arcane rule. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 03:20, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- Option 3: I really want more discussions case-by-case. In fact, I found commas unnecessary usually, but I see the logics of including a comma before abbreviation (not Roman numeral). If the guideline is inconsistent, why not use policy, like WP:COMMONNAMES? --George Ho (talk) 04:12, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- Why would you want more arguments on individual cases by people who don't have a firm understanding on punctuation rules in English? This is precisely why we have a Manual of Style to address these issues through centralised consensus. —sroc 💬 04:37, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- Search engines ignore punctuation. Ngram Viewer uses comma to separate the search phrases being compared (I tried it, and it was unable to compare Martin Luther King Jr. to Martin Luther King, Jr., even when both phrases were enclosed in quotes). So an application of COMMONNAME would necessarily be very subjective and haphazard, resulting in (1) inevitable cherry-picking of sources, conscious or otherwise, (2) enormous amounts of editor time spent debating the question at the article level — My sources are more meaningful than yours!! —, and (3) the edit warring that will always occur until someone figures out how to genetically modify human nature. The comma is not completely unimportant, but it's not worth the cost of determining it on a case-by-case basis. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:59, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- Option 1: It is simpler to omit commas, consistent with MOS:COMMA to avoid "excessive use of commas", follows the contemporary trend to leave the commas out (in keeping with a modern online encyclopedia), makes comma-separated lists of people easier to read, avoids needless recurring debates over whether a comma after Jr. or Sr. is needed, circumvents arguments over whether to include or omit commas in particular cases, and makes redundant checking (and arguing over) sources whether individual subject prefer the comma which should be irrelevant to a matter of house style. If we were to allow a comma before Jr. and Sr., then we would need to include additional guidance to require a matching comma afterwards as well (as style guides agree, although some editors vehemently dispute it), which would make the guideline more involved than it needs to be by simply omitting the commas altogether. —sroc 💬 04:27, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- Option 1: It is quite acceptable for WP to make determinations on matter of style which over-ride 'personal preference' of the subject. For instance, I believe that it specifically does so in regard to capitalisation of the titles of works for instance. It is my understanding that Jr, Sr or roman numerals are not part of a person's official name (as recorded on a birth certificate) but they are distinctions added and would be part of a persons 'common name' - that by which they are commonly known. It is my understanding that the use of commas is traditionally as a paired comma but just as the first of these is often dropped, the second (in a contemporary sense) is also redundant - since it is certainly not 'spoken' as a pause. I would also observe that the full-stop is also quite redundant. The full-stop and the comma are nothing more than clutter, especially when both are used. It is also appropriate for WP to determine (as a matter of style) the preferred abbreviation for both junior and senior, though this is not the specific question here. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:20, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- Option 4. Instruction creep. With no instruction, the default course of action is to follow the sources. I note, without actually doing careful research, that the comma is more often omitted before Jr than omitted before Sr. This is consistent with Jr becoming, in practice, part of someone's proper name, the same not commonly true for Sr. There is an an attempt here to create a false consistency between Jr and Sr. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:16, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- "Follow the sources" is not part of our style recommendations. It was in there for a while, inserted by Pmanderson and removed after he was banned, but it pretty much conflicts with the idea of having a house style, like most publishers have. Dicklyon (talk) 05:27, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- "Follow the sources" is not part of our style recommendations is a telling point. The style recommendations are at odds with the principles of the project. Why should Wikipedia have a house style? Who decides? Who decides which? Who says these decisions were previously properly made? Why not have content that reflects the sources? Why ostracize a small group of editors building content on obscure subjects that have non-standard styling? If having a house style means means conflict with following sources, then ditch house style. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:16, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
"Why should Wikipedia have a house style?"
For consistency and to avoid needless arguing on individual talk pages."Who decides?"
The Wikipedia community via consensus."Who says these decisions were previously properly made?"
The community; consensus can change and the community can decide to change any guidelines with new consensus. —sroc 💬 16:14, 18 April 2015 (UTC)- It seems to me that the MOS has provoked more arguments than it solved, and interestingly, the MOS gets tossed whenever enough editors get involved. Show me the evidence of consensus for the past decisions. Seems to me, and I've looked, that the MOS, especially its fine detail, arose as individual actions on backwater pages. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:51, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
- "Follow the sources" is not part of our style recommendations is a telling point. The style recommendations are at odds with the principles of the project. Why should Wikipedia have a house style? Who decides? Who decides which? Who says these decisions were previously properly made? Why not have content that reflects the sources? Why ostracize a small group of editors building content on obscure subjects that have non-standard styling? If having a house style means means conflict with following sources, then ditch house style. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:16, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
- Say that to those disputing capitalization of short words, like like and but. See Talk:Smells Like Teen Spirit. --George Ho (talk) 05:30, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- I support any instruction creep that prevents vast amounts of editor time spent on relatively unimportant details. Follow which sources? ―Mandruss ☎ 09:01, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- Follow which sources? The reliable secondary sources that support the content of the article. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:16, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
- "Follow the sources" is not part of our style recommendations. It was in there for a while, inserted by Pmanderson and removed after he was banned, but it pretty much conflicts with the idea of having a house style, like most publishers have. Dicklyon (talk) 05:27, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think that is what Smokey means... I assume he means all the sources that support the content of an article, whether they are used as a reference or not. I have always supported the idea of a COMMONSTYLE guideline... similar to how we have a COMMONNAME provision for which names to use. That said, a "house style" is useful for situations where there isn't a COMMONSTYLE in connection to a particular topic. It could remain as a tie breaker. Blueboar (talk) 00:00, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
- I mean use the sources that support the content. Not all of them, you would not use the narrowly used primary sources supporting single facts, sources that do not cover the subject directly and in depth. The sources used to support the content should already be representative of all good sources. If not, then the situation must be unusual and sophisticated, or there is a WP:NPOV problem with the sourcing. If sources that could be used to support the content are collectively different to sources that currently do support the content, then there is a much bigger problem. :::::: Someone writing a new article based on a handful of sources should be entirely justified in adopting the style used throughout those sources. Most articles only have a handful of sources. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:47, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think that is what Smokey means... I assume he means all the sources that support the content of an article, whether they are used as a reference or not. I have always supported the idea of a COMMONSTYLE guideline... similar to how we have a COMMONNAME provision for which names to use. That said, a "house style" is useful for situations where there isn't a COMMONSTYLE in connection to a particular topic. It could remain as a tie breaker. Blueboar (talk) 00:00, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
- Number 1 – heck, why not go with Chicago Manual of Style? It typically lags behind contemporary practice—but they do finally move with it, years too late. If they now say no dot, we should not be plumbing the depths of old-fashioned nonogenerian usage. I suppose my second choice, if dragged to it, would be number 3, within-article consistency. Tony (talk) 07:43, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- Really? This still hasn't been settled? It indicates a major failure of Wikipedian decision-making process that such a trivial matter can drag out for so long and waste so much time. Option 1, for the reasons given by others, subject to the understanding that on Wikipedia there can never be absolutely no exceptions. W. P. Uzer (talk) 08:01, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- Number 1 as per Chicago Style guides. I feel Dicklyon said it best. Snuggums (talk / edits) 08:24, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- 1. "[S]o long as each article is internally consistent..." This means that in one article a person could have the comma and in another, not (to match that article's prescribed consistency, if there is more than one "junior" mentioned in the article). Hmmm. Anyway, hate to prescribe and proscribe what other editors must or must not write, but this seems a big bone of contention. Let's settle it. On the merits, I could hardly care less which form is used. As a business matter, much better to have a simple rule that prevents arguments. (If the trend was to favor the opposite -- always requiring, rather than proscribing, the comma, that would be OK with me, and if the trend turns that way (not likely) you may consider my vote changed to support that. Herostratus (talk) 11:00, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- Option 3 or Option 4 - I am a firm believer that facts should always be based on reliable sources. That is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia. And yes, the issue of whether there is or is not a comma in a specific person's name is a matter of fact, and not a matter of "style". Blueboar (talk) 12:29, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- Option 1 Sources are not helpful here, since they follow their own house style guides at different times, and do not follow the alleged or supposed wishes of the bearer of the name. Older book sources mostly use the comma, newer newspaper sources do not. And none of those who bear the name is on record saying a single word about it. So, keep it simple. Kraxler (talk) 14:48, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- Options 3 or 4. Typical case of MOS overreach, part of some MOS regulars' frantic drive to impose linguistic uniformity in a domain that is simply not in need of uniformity. As long as both variants are clearly legitimate and common forms in careful written English, the MOS has no business messing with our writing to dictate which of the two we should use. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:02, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- Options 3 or 4 We follow the sources. If writing an article about a book titled "Martin Luther King, Jr." we shouldn't omit the comma to comply with MOS as it would them be incorrectly titled.--MONGO 15:43, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- Options 3 or 4 Follow the sources. A building named after a person might not use punctuation the same way as the person, and shouldn't be forced to. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:11, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- Options 3 or 4 Follow the sources. Agree with Mongo and Future Perfect here... Ealdgyth - Talk 22:19, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
- Option 3 Given that use of commas has been in common practice, there is no reason to get rid of them now because some recent versions of modern style guides no longer recommends their use. I will also remind the editors !voting for Option 1 that Wikipedia's Manual of Style are suppose to be descriptive of common practices, not proscriptive. —Farix (t | c) 11:36, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
- Option 3 WP:UCRN would be diminished if we allow other rules to impinge. However I do not think that in many cases that it would be a big deal if a comma were excluded or added. If it is possible I would suggest a convention that after a comma related RM a moratorium is placed on similar RMs for at least a year. GregKaye 13:18, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
- Option 3 or 4. The status quo of the article prevails, and a talk page discussion should be required to switch from one style to another on any given article. --L235 (alt / t / c / ping in reply) 19:17, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
- Something akin to 2A/3/4. If it's going to be a problem, we should provide some guidance; but that guidance should be that our representation of a name should follow the reliable sources about that person. There's nothing special about the comma or II; we have the same issues with Müller/Muller/Mueller. There may be some people who, for whatever reasons of where they lived or what media covered them, are encountered with the commas missing, and definitely others who have them present. The style that is familiar to the eye when used about an entertainer may not be familiar when used about a reverend. I think though it would be very unusual to see a comma before II. Wnt (talk) 11:38, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
- Option 4, followed by 3. It's MOS instruction creep. No guidance is needed here, keep things simple and cut back the number of guidelines to memorize that are only meaningful when they clash with sources that should be primary anyway. SnowFire (talk) 15:51, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
- Option 2A, then Option 4, followed by 3 - I'd just say "Unless there is strong and clear preference among reliable sources on a subject to do so, do not place a comma before Jr., Sr., or Roman numeral designation. Examples: Sammy Davis Jr., John F. Kennedy Jr., Otis D. Wright II.". NickCT (talk) 19:14, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
- In British English we don't use Sr. & Jr. much, but I'm pretty sure this comma convention is wholly unknown, & we don't use commas. Whatever is decided (hollow laugh) it should be made clear that the decision & any MOS prescription, applies only within the sphere of American English per WP:ENGVAR. On that basis, I don't care what is decided. Johnbod (talk) 01:00, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
- Option 2A or 1A followed by 3. Wikipedia should have a house style (slight preference) to deal with cases of mixed sources or too few sources and to avoid RM battles over every such article. However, exceptions should be allowed if sources (and maybe some subjects themselves) have a clear preference (=WP:COMMONNAMES). — AjaxSmack 02:40, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
- Option 4 (remove this section entirely), followed by Option 3. The obvious answer is to follow the sources (how does the subject render his own name? How do reliable sources render the name?), not impose some sort of ridiculous and unnecessary uniform rule or "presumption." I agree so wholeheartedly with Fut.Perf. that I will reproduce his or her comments here: "Typical case of MOS overreach, part of some MOS regulars' frantic drive to impose linguistic uniformity in a domain that is simply not in need of uniformity. As long as both variants are clearly legitimate and common forms in careful written English, the MOS has no business messing with our writing to dictate which of the two we should use." Neutralitytalk 04:08, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
- 1A, 3. Prefer no-comma as it renders cleaner url, makes life easier for parsing tools but we should allow both, subject to sources. If sources support both comma and non-comma, then prefer non-comma. -- nafSadh did say 01:49, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
- 3 or 4 per Calidum. There really is no need to be prescriptive about this. Internal consistency, and following sources where there is a clear preponderance of one form or the other, would seem pragmatic ways to operate, but neither form is wrong, and I don't think we should have anything that forces people down one route or another. — Amakuru (talk) 10:47, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
- Option 1B -- Do not use the comma unless sources require it. This is an intermediate between 1 and 1A; the recent edits that changed 1A to 1 have some merit, but also some unintended consequences, in my opinion. Findings and reasoning follow in the discussion section below. 172.56.16.178 (talk) 03:56, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
- Option 1B as per an IP. Do not use the comma unless the source requires it. "Martin Luther King Jr." always, but "Martin Luther King, Jr., Library" because that is the proper name of the library. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:46, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
- Option 2 (or 2A when it is part of a pen name or stage name) “Junior” is, essentially, a clarification. “Martin Luther King, Jr.”, for example, means “Martin Luther King, that is not Martin Luther King the father but Martin Luther King the son”. The comma is supposed to create a small pause before the “Junior”, which signifies that it is indeed a clarification. If the comma is omitted, then it is like the “Junior” is part of the surname (i.e., someone whose first name was Martin, middle name was Luther and surname was King Junior). Numerals, on the other hand, are not clarifications but orderings. “Cornelius Vanderbilt III” does not mean “Cornelius Vanderbilt, that is not the first, neither the second but third of the Vanderbilt family to be named Cornelius”. Rather, it just means “The third of the Vanderbilt family to be named Cornelius”. A pen name and a stage name is not a person′s actual name, so it is not liable to such rules.--The Theosophist (talk) 00:40, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
- Option 4 (3 as a backup) – There is no need for guidance on this matter. This is a waste of time. Either format is acceptable, and neither makes the encylopaedia look sloppy. The best way to stop this kind of time wasting is to remove the guidance altogether, even though I personally favour the no comma version. Let the WP:AT policy serve as a basis for changing article titles, as it should. RGloucester — ☎ 13:46, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
Jr. comma RfC: Discussion
Question: Why are Roman Numerals treated differently than Jr. and Sr. in the above options? --Jayron32 12:07, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
- It has pretty much never been the convention to use a comma before a Roman numeral. Picture "King Henry, VIII", "King George, III", or "Pope John Paul, II". bd2412 T 03:04, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
Side issue: Above, I supported deprecating the comma in a persons name, partly based on this being a common name, rather than it being part of their 'official' name. I perceive that their may be a distinction for 'places' (such as the memorial parkway above) which may or may not include a comma (or any other punctuation for that matter). My view is that an article should reflect the official name of the place (not withstanding the requirements of common name). I see no inconsistency in this, that the article about the person does not use the comma. Conversely, if a place is named without the comma, should the article for the place have a comma just because someone purports that the individual had a preference for using the comma - no. Cinderella157 (talk) 07:31, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- As far as I know, Jr. is always part of the official, legal name of a person so named, as it will usually first appear on that person's birth certificate, and will remain the legal name until legally changed. On the other hand, Sr. is rarely part of a legal name, as there will be a long trail of documents without Sr., as , Sr. only becomes necessary after a Jr., son of the father, is born. , Jr. or , Sr. (or , II, , III, , Nth) distinguish individuals in the same or collateral lines of decent, and might be considered a parenthetical (thus the second comma?), but of these, the Sr. is the only one that would never be part of the official, legal name unless a legal name change was executed. As an example, I am legally a , Jr.; my father began signing , Sr. after I was born; I signed , Jr. until my father died, but my official, legal name does, and always has, included , Jr., though I now sign only my given and family names. In the US, just try to get a driver's license, passport, or official ID without using your full legal name. Thinking of full legal name, has anyone thought of pinging newyorkbrad. Generally I support Wikipedia presenting correct form, when that can be determined, over easy algorithms. After all, Wikipedia is for people, not machines. - Neonorange (talk) 00:49, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
- In many jurisdictions, there is no impediment to changing a legal name to another legal name. In the U.S., for example, your legal name can usually be changed at any time for any reason, no questions asked. So, just because it isn't the name that was put on your birth certificate doesn't mean that it isn't legal. --Jayron32 01:04, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
- I think Neonorange, Jr. is onto something. A 'Sr.' has to earn the title. Jr.'s are handed it along with a crib and a rattle. Randy Kryn 1:12 17 April, 2015 (UTC)
- "Sr." is a retronym awarded when a "Jr." is born. Sometimes Jr. becomes Sr. when III is born and I is dead already, at least in the New York Times archive.
- @{u|Jayron32}}: You quibble. In the US, try getting a driver's license, passport, social security card, or other government ID; or a mortgage or deed for real property—then see how laissez-faire the official, legal name requirements are. Other jurisdictions, would, I expect, have much the same requirements for an official, legal name. — Neonorange (talk) 05:57, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
- I think Neonorange, Jr. is onto something. A 'Sr.' has to earn the title. Jr.'s are handed it along with a crib and a rattle. Randy Kryn 1:12 17 April, 2015 (UTC)
- In many jurisdictions, there is no impediment to changing a legal name to another legal name. In the U.S., for example, your legal name can usually be changed at any time for any reason, no questions asked. So, just because it isn't the name that was put on your birth certificate doesn't mean that it isn't legal. --Jayron32 01:04, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
- Question Is the rule to have comma after Jr., and Sr., to let us know that sentence has not really ended? If that is so, we have to add a comma after Co., and Inc., and other abbreviations too. Can someone point me to where this rule is discussed in a non-Wikipedia source. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 03:00, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
- Answer Chicago Manual of Style: "... the function of the comma is to set off these abbreviations, so an additional comma is needed after the abbreviation if the sentence continues." The rule is not really about Sr. and Jr., it is about using a period in the middle of a sentence and adding a comma to let the reader know that this was not the end of a sentence but was an abbreviation. The people who originated the argument here at Wikipedia have been misrepresenting it. We still have to add a comma after every mid-sentence period. I think the originators of the Wikipedia rule have conflated two very different style rules: 1) The mid-sentence period rule, which has nothing to do with commas before the period; and 2) the "John Doe, Sr.", vs "John Doe Sr.", rule. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 03:12, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
- That's a nutty interpretation. Do you add a comma after "Mr." in "Mr. Smith"? Of course not. What about if Junior was spelled out? Would that be any different? No, it would not; still need a comma after it in a sentence, if and only if you have a comma before; see apposition. Dicklyon (talk) 05:43, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
- Quite so. The matching comma after "John Doe, Sr." is required for the same reason as the comma after "April 18, 2015" and "Paris, Texas"—not because the comma indicates that the sentence continues but because the commas set off the additional element which might otherwise be treated as a parenthetical remark providing clarification/disambiguation: "John Doe (Sr.)"; "April 18 (2015)"; "Paris (Texas)". In each case, the parentheses are replaced with commas, but the final comma is superseded by terminal punctuation (e.g., a full stop) at the end of a sentence. —sroc 💬 16:28, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
- That's a nutty interpretation. Do you add a comma after "Mr." in "Mr. Smith"? Of course not. What about if Junior was spelled out? Would that be any different? No, it would not; still need a comma after it in a sentence, if and only if you have a comma before; see apposition. Dicklyon (talk) 05:43, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
- Reaction to comments: I have no strong opinion on the comma, but I do object to those commenters who take it for granted that the suffix is part of a person's name. West's Encyclopedia of American Law (2nd ed, s.v. "JUNIOR") says that "Jr." is merely descriptive, not a part of a person's name. Jc3s5h (talk) 23:06, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
- That's quite right, the Jr. is usually dropped after the death of the Sr., and the son of the Jr. later becomes the Jr., and the previous Jr. then becomes the Sr. and so on. Jr. should only be used if it the COMMONNAME, Sr. should only be used if the person during their lifetime used it and was known as Sr. The latter case is rather rare, but some users adds Sr. to any person who had a son with the Jr. suffix. In that case, by some not very well explained rule, the sources may be overlooked, but when it comes to the comma, heaven and hell must be moved to preserve or erradicate it. Just another timesink... Kraxler (talk) 16:25, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
- Try telling that to someone who has a Jr. or Sr. in their name. Perhaps in terms of grammar it isn't technically part of a name ... but emotionally it is certainly perceived as being a very important part of the the person's name. And there are certainly people who are routinely referred to by the name "Junior". Blueboar (talk) 00:06, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
- I was talking about people who do not have a Sr. in their name, never had it, were never known as the "Sr.", but got it added by some overeager Wikipedian. It's not helpful to talk at cross-purposes. Kraxler (talk) 14:51, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
- I put "who take it for granted that the suffix is part of a person's name" in my comment deliberately. My point is that since it is not an official part of the name (as a general rule in the US, which is what West's is intended to cover) there is no fixed rule. This means, from a Wikipedia editing point of view, if an editor read that John Jones died and the editor could prove that there was a Wikipedia article about John Jones Jr., it would be wrong to immediately move the "John Jones Jr." article to "John Jones". It would be equally wrong to resist such a change if reliable sources could be found indicating that John Jones Jr. had dropped the suffix. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:06, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
- I was talking about people who do not have a Sr. in their name, never had it, were never known as the "Sr.", but got it added by some overeager Wikipedian. It's not helpful to talk at cross-purposes. Kraxler (talk) 14:51, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
- Try telling that to someone who has a Jr. or Sr. in their name. Perhaps in terms of grammar it isn't technically part of a name ... but emotionally it is certainly perceived as being a very important part of the the person's name. And there are certainly people who are routinely referred to by the name "Junior". Blueboar (talk) 00:06, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
- That's quite right, the Jr. is usually dropped after the death of the Sr., and the son of the Jr. later becomes the Jr., and the previous Jr. then becomes the Sr. and so on. Jr. should only be used if it the COMMONNAME, Sr. should only be used if the person during their lifetime used it and was known as Sr. The latter case is rather rare, but some users adds Sr. to any person who had a son with the Jr. suffix. In that case, by some not very well explained rule, the sources may be overlooked, but when it comes to the comma, heaven and hell must be moved to preserve or erradicate it. Just another timesink... Kraxler (talk) 16:25, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
User:172.56.16.178's findings and reasoning on "Option 1B"
- Note: Split because of excessive length. Epic Genius (talk) 02:28, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
This book omits comma before Jr. in names, including
- Sammy Davis Jr.
- Martin Luther King Jr.
- Florenz Ziegfeld Jr.
- Richard Maltby Jr.
- Johann Strauss Jr.
- Eddie Foy Jr.
but includes comma before Jr. in show names that use it:
- George Washington, Jr.
- Sherlock, Jr.
This one omits commas from a huge number of names, including Harry Connick Jr., and like the other, includes the comma in some show titles such as Robinson Crusoe, Jr."
This book by a leading authority on MLK Jr. omits the comma except where citing a title that used it, or when listing the author's name the way it appears on the work.
My conclusion is that it is a common style choice to omit the comma, except when literally reproducing the title or author as it appears on a work. The observation that various publishers or authors make different style choices should not stop Wikipedia from making a style choice. Leaving it up to the whim of editors, on the other hand, seems like a chaotic idea. And trying to determine the preference of the subject seems essentially impossible. Even if a person wrote their name with a comma, as was more traditional in past years, that does not indicate that they ever considered the option or expressed a preference one way or the other. My impression is that if any significant fraction of reliable sources about them omit the comma, then it is OK to omit the comma.
As Calidum puts it, "people don't put commas on street signs", which is the logical counter to Randy Kryn's "it changes someone's name". We do not dishonor Dr. King by our choice of how to style the "Jr." qualifier to his name.
Are there any names for which a significant fraction of reliable sources do NOT omit the comma? Not that I have found so far, but they must exist; if we find them we should probably use the comma with those.
On the other hand, some sources mix it up, with who knows what criterion. This one: [1] has:
- Harry Connick Sr and Jr
- Mel Kiper Jr and Mel Sr
- Robert Downey, Jr., and Bobbie Sr.
- Cuba Gooding Jr. and Cuba Sr.
- Ray Parker, Jr., and Ray Parker Jr and Ray Jr and ...
So I'd say some sources have no style. Oddly, Robert Downey Jr. and Ray Parker Jr. sources are more than 80% without comma, yet this source added a comma for them while mostly not using the comma.
Some such as this book use a comma in the full name but omit it with the shorted Holmes Jr. and Holmes Sr. That's a style, too. It looks like over half omit the comma from the Holmes pair, so it's not clear what bd2412's objection is in "I would not expect Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. (or Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.) to be moved...".
Nobody would put a comma or two in Leland Stanford Jr. University, but if you look at books that mention "Leland Stanford Jr. Museum", you find some that put a comma before Jr., some that put commas before and after, and at least one that puts a comma only after. They make their style choices, and maybe a few mistakes.
SmokeyJoe's suggestion "use the sources that support the content" is good, as long as the sources agree. When they don't, we should use our house style, which should be to omit the comma, as it has been for at least 5 years. And Randy Kryn is right that we should not modify official names such as "Martin Luther King, Jr. Memorial", even though the mismatched comma makes no grammatical sense; it is not our job to try to fix that. On the other hand, "Martin Luther King, Jr. Day" is not the official name of that holiday, so we may have more flexibility in fixing that one.
George Ho's point about wanting more discussion of individual cases is hard to understand. He has restored commas to a number of articles where no cited source, or no cited source other than Find-A-Grave, uses the comma; so why did he not discuss that? It looks like Find-A-Grave has their own style (some of their contributors omit the comma from their names, but all of their grave listings for Jr and Sr use the comma); does that mean we add a comma whenever somebody dies? In Albert Gore, Sr., one source uses the comma, but the others do not; yet he moved it without discussion, even while our MOS said to omit the comma.
This WP history shows Flo Ziegfeld moved in 2011 to Florenz Ziegfeld, Jr.. Why the comma? Probably because the redirect Florenz Ziegfeld Jr. already existed, in the way. Not a good reason. Our WP:JR didn't say back in 2007 not to do that, but now it's time to improve it and match the style to that of many other articles that do conform to our style guidelines.
172.56.16.178 (talk) 03:56, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
Proposal to extend the scope of this Rfc
It is proposed to amend the Manual of Style to recommend that the full stop after Dr, Cllr, Mr, Mrs, Jr, Sr and similar words be omitted. Discussion to include treatment of Ms, which is not an abbreviation of anything.
Support It is grammatically wrong to append this dot. The dot indicates that letters have been omitted after the last letter that appears in the abbreviation. These words all have letters missing from the interior of the word, not the end. I support the non - inclusion of a dot at the end of Ms, because that is useful to distinguish it from Ms. (manuscript). 156.61.250.250 (talk) 14:11, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
Feel free to start a separate RfC, but it's a different issue from the current one, and would unnecessarily confuse it, especially at this point in the discussion. Dohn joe (talk) 14:31, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose conflating these issues, per Dohn. The scope is different and would involve further amendments to other sections. Don't confuse matters further. Start a separate RfC for that. —sroc 💬 16:10, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose. This is an WP:ENGVAR issue; American English uses the period after those abbreviations while British English does not. Calidum T|C 21:21, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose. Per sroc and Calidum. GregJackP Boomer! 23:19, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose per Calidum. American English style guides recommend it, British ones recommend against it. Clear WP:ENGVAR issue. Current general ENGVAR guidance, merely requiring internal consistency, is adequate. --Jayron32 11:59, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
Comment Actually, Americans are ambivalent on the issue. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 10:40, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
Proposal to change the focus of pending changes
Some years ago, pending changes were introduced on an experimental basis. A subsequent RfC voted to end the experiment, but pending changes are still with us. Some administrators take advantage of this fact by putting more articles in. Most of the work on Islamic calendar, for example, is done by IPs, but since it was put in pending changes (for no good reason) editing has stopped. I suggest we enforce the RfC and that all articles currently in pending changes be taken out.
This will mean that pending changes reviewers (who I take to be everyone who is autoconfirmed) will have nothing to do. I therefore propose that IPs be given back the right to start articles for an experimental period of six months on a pending changes basis. That is to say, their articles would not be publicly visible until the text had been approved by an editor.
Technically, I suppose that what would happen would be that the article would be created and accessible as normal, with the usual edit and history tabs. The text created by the IP would appear in the edit box but would not be seen publicly (the article would appear as any page does when it has been blanked). Editing would be as normal for pending changes, with the first edit to be publicly visible being the first edit by an autoconfirmed editor. Normal deletion policy would apply.
Where an editor tags for CSD he may find it convenient to make the offending text publicly visible to assist those following up. Either way, if there are no objections an administrator will be along about fifteen minutes later to delete. Every article started in this way will automatically remain within pending changes for one month after creation.
There are two big advantages of this proposal. Article growth went well from inception until just shy of the five million mark, when it stalled. This proposal will put it back on track. It will also result in an infusion of new blood. Wikipedia is haemorrhaging editors. It desperately needs new ones. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 14:46, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
- Isn't that essentially AfC? Kharkiv07Talk 15:06, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
- The difference is that you can put something in AfC and it hangs around for months so most people don't bother. Under this proposal you are in the driving seat so a lot more people will add worthwhile content. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 15:48, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
- As is, most articles created by newcomers are deleted quickly without discussion, a situation which I believe to be very BITEy, and possibly is a significant cause of Wikipedia "haemorrhaging editors"; move the permission to create articles a bit farther back, and the situation will become worse, not better. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 20:28, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
- The difference is that you can put something in AfC and it hangs around for months so most people don't bother. Under this proposal you are in the driving seat so a lot more people will add worthwhile content. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 15:48, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
- I'm confused by your proposal for a few reasons. First, IP editors can still edit with pending changes, in effect it is a weaker version of semi-protection which BLOCKS all IP editors. I would suggest moving many semi pages to pending changes actually and strongly oppose removal of pending changes. As for AfC, it works. Reviewing a new article is a process, more so than a simple pending changes button, and does take a little longer. And third, only users with the Pending changes reviewer can review the pending changes, even though any auto confirmed users edits will be accepted. EoRdE6(Come Talk to Me!) 23:31, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
- You seem to have missed the series of RFCs that reauthorized the use of pending changes protection (level 1 only). Monty845 23:43, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
- The last RfC decided that PC was wanted and it was up to editors to decide how to implement it. To date there has been no consensus on this so there is no mandate to put Islamic calendar (or any other article for that matter) into PC. PC seems to be very complex - there are at least two levels of it and SlimVirgin said she didn't understand it. I think it is too complicated. Given that here in March there was a consensus that PC should not operate for an extended period all that is needed is a week of semi - protection where necessary to drive the vandals away.
- Od Mishehu says that "most articles created by newcomers are deleted quickly without discussion". That's a failure by the established editors. They should work to bring the articles up to standard, not delete them. This is why IPs should be allowed to create articles - they then get the benefit of all the other editors who know something about the subject adding sources and content. That is the essence of crowdsourcing.
- Replying to EoRdE6, AfC takes months and is permanently backlogged. With direct article creation other editors can come in and get the article on the road to GA status in a few days. You see articles like the Charlie Hebdo massacre which within just a few hours of creation are full of content and sources. The system of creating stubs giving experts the opportunity to come in and build a full length article has worked well.
- There is a proverb "If you want a job done do it yourself". AfC relies on getting other people to post the content to mainspace. It's a form of action by proxy which is proven to be inefficient. The British government in 2002 experimented with postal voting - included was the local council election in my area. There were no polling stations (no electronic voting here - today is the general election and everyone takes printed ballots, fills them in and posts them into the ballot box). The voters had to fill in the ballot papers then give them to the postmen who had to give them to the council. Needless to say the experiment was not repeated.
- It's the same everywhere. We got supermarkets from America - before then shoppers queued at the grocer's while he picked their selections off his shelves. Now checkout operators have been done away with and customers scan their shopping themselves - no more queuing. No more queuing at the public library either - readers return and renew their books themselves at self - service kiosks, resulting in a more efficient use of their and the staff's time. Self - service machines are at railway stations - everywhere you can think of. Introduction of AfC was a retrograde step. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 11:21, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
- I suggest you take a reread of Wikipedia:Protection_policy#Pending changes protection and Wikipedia:Pending changes as you are mistaken. The closing statement of the last RFC which dealt with the issue is quite clear Wikipedia:PC2012/RfC 3.
There was very strong consensus to enable the use of Pending Changes throughout all namespaces
- and further
The consensus on this was fairly clearly against having any specific criteria, but a significant minority expressed concern that its use is less well-defined than is the use for conventional protection methods; if enormous inconsistencies with application are seen upon implementation, this may be a topic worth revisiting
- and at the end
As with the previous RfC, assessing the usefulness of what gained consensus here will require some monitoring. The same time frames (1 month for obvious problems, more for subtler issues) seem to fit with everything in this discussion as well. It appears that after this and the previous RfCs, we have the necessary framework to roll out Pending Changes, and we know what aspects of its use will require the most monitoring and later attention.
- So no we aren't waiting for the community to come to some sort of agreement on how to use it. (There were earlier RfCs which also dealt with when to use PC1.)
- Of course, if you feel that PC1 is being in ways that are unhelpful in some instances, you're welcome to start a properly fleshed-out RfC on the matter, but I strongly urge you to talk to others about this before hand, and make sure you actually otherstand what the history is, otherwise your RfC is unlikely to do anything useful. (As it stands, you're failing to follow information I had sort of heard before, but to be honest had mostly forgotten by now and only properly relearned by actually reading the PC page and following the links to the RfC has lead to your proposal being sidetracked by this unnecessary discussion.) Now if you feel the admin's closing wasn't an accurate summation of the RfC consensus, or if you feel that the RfCs had insufficient participation compared to earlier RfCs, you could try to dispute that, but relitigating stuff after 2+ years rarely works well.
- There were two followup RfCs, Wikipedia:Pending changes/Request for Comment 2013 and Wikipedia:Pending changes/Request for Comment 2014, which concerned PC2 and ultimately came up with criteria for the use of PC2, but no actual consensus to use PC2. These don't of course affect the use of PC1, for which in the absence of clear evidence consensus has changed, we stick with the older RfCs which showed there is consensus to use PC1.
- Nil Einne (talk) 15:11, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
- Your example also seems fairly poor.
Perhaps Islamic calendar may have had useful IP edits, but it also had many that were reverted (which look to be more or less the same edit from a persistent IP hopper). I didn't look in to these enough to say if the reversions were proper, simply that they happened therefore whether before or after PC, IP edits were being rejected.
More importantly perhaps, the time frame here is insufficient to tell us anything about pending changes, particularly if you look at the logs or edit history carefully. On 13 April, both PC1 and semi protection were applied with the PC1 due to expire on 13 July and the semiprotection on 27 April. My thoughts and a search confirmed via Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2015 March 18#Pending changes and Semi-protection simultaneously that this works and is evidently done sometimes when it's felt that there is an acute problem that needs to be dealt with via semiprotection for a short time, and a chronic problem that needs PC1.
Without commenting on whether this was the case for Islamic calender, this means it was impossible for IPs to directly edit from 17:36 13 April to 27 April. So there's a fair chance the absence of IP edits for this period had nothing to do with PC1.
So really all you're talking about is from 27 April until now. In that period, we had 3 IP edits. 2 were rejected, 1 accepted. Again without commenting on the appropriateness of any of these edits, unless we were getting an average of 1 useful IP edit on average every 3 days or so (which it doesn't look like we were), it's difficult to useful conclude things were so much better before PC1. You simply lack sufficient data to be able to make any conclusion about a reduction of helpful IP edits. And at the very least, the editor who kept making the same change which I think lead up to the semiprotections and PC1 seems to have left for now.
BTW, for the avoidance of doubt and confusion, I should mention I'm aware editors who haven't been auto/confirmed are affected as well, I just used IPs for shorthand and since it's also harder to spot such editors.
Nil Einne (talk) 15:59, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
- I think that the proposal that an article should go into PC just because a lot of IPs don't edit it is misconceived. The Islamic calendar is hardly a mainstream subject. Your comments on PC generally are a joke. About twenty years ago the local council proposed to demolish a housing estate and being short of cash proposed to sell off the land to a private developer. To do that, it needed the consent of the tenants. It assured them that the estate would not be sold if the majority were opposed. The tenants kept asking for a ballot but the council ignored them. Finally the ballot papers arrived, and the tenants were dismayed to see that their votes would be rolled up among those of tenants on other estates which were going to be refurbished. This followed an "opinion poll" conducted by a survey company which doorknocked to ask the tenants what they wanted for their estate but did not ask the key question Do you want your estate to be sold or not? The council's ballot paper was craftily worded - not "Do you want your estate to be sold?" as discussed in literature and meetings but "Do you want your home to be sold, meaning that the tenants' views would be submerged amongst the views of all the tenants on other estates who were going to get new kitchens and bathrooms instead of seeing their homes reduced to rubble.
- Same here, there was a lot of discussion about how pending changes might work, but no discussion of whether its reenablement would be a good or bad thing. Since pending changes is a dead loss, let me reformulate my proposal. IPs would be able to create articles just as before Siegenthaler with one exception - edits by non - autoconfirmed editors would only become publicly visible when the page was first edited by an autoconfirmed user. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 13:21, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- Your example also seems fairly poor.
The claim "Some years ago, pending changes were introduced on an experimental basis. A subsequent RfC voted to end the experiment, but pending changes are still with us" is factually untrue. What happened is that PC was implemented with permission of the community with the restriction that it be removed after a set period, that promise was broken and PC remained, then all hell broke loose. Later, after it was removed and we put down the pitchforks and torches, a second proposal was made to implement PC permanently, and the decision of the community was yes for level one PC and no for level two PC. So the reality is that [A] the current PC policy is supported by the community and [B] we would be fools to ever again believe a promise like "let's try this for six months and then we will turn it off and evaluate how theexperiment went" after having been lied to in the past. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:34, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Editors were given two alternatives: PC anywhere or PC in restricted areas. The third alternative, PC nowhere, was not presented. This is the same trick the council played when wording its ballot on council house selloffs. After John Prescott was told where he could stick his housing policy he came up with more alternatives:
- transfer to private landlord (and if you disagree there's no money to maintain your home so it will fall to pieces around you)
- private finance initiative (PFI) where developers get a long lease in return for financing the work
- arms - length management organisation (ALMO) where the council retains ownership of the homes but the management is farmed out to a quango (quasi non - governmental organisation).
The fourth option, stay as you are, was not presented.
Tenants were ballotted on the three options and - surprise - the council claimed 80% of them were in favour of option 3. In fact, hardly anyone voted, so the actual percentage in favour was tiny.
As for broken promises, anyone can start an RfC suggesting that PC be turned off, and if it wins a consensus that's more power to the community. Don't underestimate the power of public opinion - Prescott had a scheme to decimate (and I don't mean reduce by 10%) perfectly serviceable housing in Liverpool which was withdrawn in the face of strong opposition. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 16:30, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
156.61.250.250, I suggest that you read the discussions and RfCs in question and edit the above claims accordingly.
In particular, Wikipedia:PC2012/RfC 2 and Wikipedia:PC2012/RfC 3 clearly show that your your claim "The third alternative, PC nowhere, was not presented" has zero basis in reality. Did you really imagine that nobody would check? --Guy Macon (talk) 21:33, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- You've linked to eleven RfCs on this subject. I was given just two to look up, one of them being Wikipedia:PC2012/RfC3 which you also cite. I don't see anywhere in that wall of text where editors were asked to !vote on the proposition "Do you (a) want to enable PC or (b) switch it off. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 08:43, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
Is citing the definition of a dictionary an original research
Hello
I'm not sure this is the right place for the discussion, please forgiev me and show me the way to the correct place in this case.
in Role-playing game terms#R, we can read
- Race: A character's species, ethnicity, type, or other description of their physical and cultural heredity. Role-playing games often include fantasy races, mutants, robots and other non-human types.
This imho obviously extends usual definition of a race, e.g. in wiktionary:race#Etymology 2
- A group of sentient beings, particularly people, distinguished by common heritage or characteristics
- A population geographically separated from others of its species that develops significantly different characteristics; an informal term for a subspecies.
(although in the first definition, "sentient beings" could be wide enough to enclose positronic brains). Am I right or am I flawed by the fact that I'm not a native english speaker?
If I'm right -- and even if I'm wrong, the problem could be for another topic --, can I then cite a definition of the dictionary and mention this discrepancy, or would it be considered as an original analysis of primary sources and thus an original research?
cdang|write me 09:53, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Anyone can edit Wiktionary so it shouldn't be used as a source per WP:USERGENERATED. Furthermore, the lead of Role-playing game terms is clear that the shown meanings are in the context of role-playing games. Words often have different meanings or nuances in different contexts so citing a "discrepancy" with a reliable dictionary would also be bad, unless that dictionary specifically talks about the meaning of "race" in role-playing games. Such games are full of supernatural and fictional beings so it's hardly surprising if the terminology doesn't adhere strictly to the common usage for real beings. And we certainly don't want users going through Category:Glossaries and point out whenever a field gives a new or modified meaning to an existing word. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:33, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for your answer. I used the Wiktionary because I don't know reliable online English dictionaries and don't have a paper English dictionary with me (I'm not a native English speaker); but the question is about any reliable dictionary, online or paper.
- I agree with you that the definition of some words is different in fictional works and in common usage, the question is: is it possible write that it is different, just refering to the definition of a reliable dictionary, or would it be considered as an original research? (The aim is not to point out every word in the glossary; but it can be relevant in some cases.)
- cdang|write me 07:54, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- OK, maybe I could be a bit more specific. I wrote the article Character race. It was a draft until a few hours, and was accepted sooner than I expected (I won't complain (-: ). The aim of my question was to clarify a point to be sure it would be accepted, but my question remains.
- I wrote : "The term “race” is even broader than the usual meaning, as it also includes extra-terrestrial beings, vegetal beings — e.g. the Aldryami in Glorantha (1978)[6], the Sylvanians in Fantasy Craft (2010)[7] — and robots — e.g. Artificials in Fantasy Craft or the Forgeborn/Dwarf-forged optional race in 13th Age (2013)[8]."
- Notice that I even didn't cite a dictionary (which would be a primary source). Can I write this without a secondary source stating this ?
- It may look ridiculous as this, because this statement is quite obvious. But obviousness is a valid arguument for Descartes, it is not for Wikipedia. And, believe it or not, this statement caused me some problem in the French wiki, on the same topic.
- So, is it the same on the English WP? Would someone add {{refneeded}} or is the statement acceptable as this?
- cdang|write me 20:29, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- WP:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue. In cases like this though, citing a definition to a defining source would be appropriate, I believe. So yes, you can cite a dictionary (like Oxford or Merriam-Webster, or a game’s rulebook). —174.141.182.82 (talk) 22:42, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- OK, I'm a bit paranoid then (-:
- I realise that the main problem is not on the content of the article itself, but on the language. The english word "race" was initially translated as race in French; in French, it was used for both humans and for animals (means "breed"). In the early 1980's, when D&D was first translated in French, this was still accurate, although a bit outdated. But things evolved, essentially pushed by the bad memories of the WWII and the evolution of genetics. A 1991 French dictionary already notes that the notion of race "is to be rejected" for humans (but still give the definition, which is OK because we need to understand outdated texts). Now the consensus is that race can only be used for "breed", and is banned for humans (we use ethnicity or type instead); the word race was even banned from the laws which punishes racism (16 May 2013, [2]).
- So it is obvious to me (as the skye is blue) that "race" has become a faux ami (see table below), but well, this is quite new, and there is no source that really states "race is a faux ami", all I have are dictionaries. And thus it is obvious to me that the title of the French article cannot be "race" and I used the word peuple (people) instead. But as the word "race" is still widely used in role-playing game rulebooks in French, I don't have a secondary source citing "people" (but have some primary ones), and "race" is what comes up with Google, so many claim that the notion of "people" does not exist in RPG and that it is an original research of mine. See the point?
- So, that does not concern the English WP, but I wanted to explain why I asked that silly question. Sorry for the disturbance.
- cdang|write me 12:31, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- WP:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue. In cases like this though, citing a definition to a defining source would be appropriate, I believe. So yes, you can cite a dictionary (like Oxford or Merriam-Webster, or a game’s rulebook). —174.141.182.82 (talk) 22:42, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
Modern English | Modern French |
---|---|
race | éthnie, type |
breed | race |
Limits on promotional lists
Some types of items, such as entertainment industry awards, are largely inherently promotional in nature. Since we don’t want to unduly promote things on Wikipedia, should we have guidance, perhaps at MOS:SAL, instructing to be more selective in listings of such items than we may be with other types of lists? (Note: There is some discussion of this question in a narrower scope at WT:FILM. I don’t know whether we do need a rule like this; that’s why I’m asking the community. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 23:50, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
(clarification copied from a reply below) What I mean by this question is, should we only list the likes of the high-profile Golden Globes or Academy Awards, or Pulitzers, or the Nobel Prize in Literature? Or should we list every single verifiable award (including frivolous ones)? Every notable award? Only awards that meet some yet-to-be-determined threshold? Or are our current guidelines sufficient for editors to make case-by-case judgements without issues? —174.141.182.82 (talk) 23:33, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- Recognition is not promotion. Things like the Golden Globe Awards and the Academy Awards are widely recognized and accepted as significant accomplishments within the film industry. It is not promotional to note who wins such awards anymore than it is for the Nobel Prizes or the Pulitzer Prizes or anything else. Just because Wikipedia contains information about commercial ventures does not mean it is promoting those ventures. --Jayron32 10:54, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- I'm assuming the nominator hoped people would read the very long discussion on that page so did not go into more detail regarding this issue. The issue is this (again, please read the long discussion as I won't do justice by summarizing it): should stand-alone list articles regarding awards (that was the original issue) list -all- awards that a given subject has received or notable awards only. What are notable awards? Awards that have or should have (but currently don't) a Wikipedia article (and thus satisfying notability guidelines). Why should we limit them? Because if a local elementary school gives an award to actor Philip Seymour Hoffman and it was covered by some local newspaper, should an article such as List of awards and nominations received by Philip Seymour Hoffman add that award to the list. The side not wanting to add non-notable awards cited WP:CSC#1 ("Every entry meets the notability criteria for its own non-redirect article in the English Wikipedia. Red-linked entries are acceptable if the entry is verifiably a member of the listed group, and it is reasonable to expect an article could be forthcoming in the future. This standard prevents Wikipedia from becoming an indiscriminate list, and prevents individual lists from being too large to be useful to readers. Many of the best lists on Wikipedia reflect this type of editorial judgment.") as adding non-notable awards to such a list serves only those non-notable organizations which as a consequence become notable not because of what they do, but because they have Wikipedia mentions. --Gonnym (talk) 11:08, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- I don’t think anyone’s of the opinion that we shouldn’t list awards like the Golden Globes or Academy Awards, or Pulitzers, or the Nobel Prize in Literature. But should we only list awards of that caliber? Should we list every single verifiable award (including frivolous ones)? Every notable award? Only awards that meet some yet-to-be-determined threshold? Or are our current guidelines sufficient for editors to make case-by-case judgements without issues? That’s what I meant by my question here. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 23:06, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- I'm assuming the nominator hoped people would read the very long discussion on that page so did not go into more detail regarding this issue. The issue is this (again, please read the long discussion as I won't do justice by summarizing it): should stand-alone list articles regarding awards (that was the original issue) list -all- awards that a given subject has received or notable awards only. What are notable awards? Awards that have or should have (but currently don't) a Wikipedia article (and thus satisfying notability guidelines). Why should we limit them? Because if a local elementary school gives an award to actor Philip Seymour Hoffman and it was covered by some local newspaper, should an article such as List of awards and nominations received by Philip Seymour Hoffman add that award to the list. The side not wanting to add non-notable awards cited WP:CSC#1 ("Every entry meets the notability criteria for its own non-redirect article in the English Wikipedia. Red-linked entries are acceptable if the entry is verifiably a member of the listed group, and it is reasonable to expect an article could be forthcoming in the future. This standard prevents Wikipedia from becoming an indiscriminate list, and prevents individual lists from being too large to be useful to readers. Many of the best lists on Wikipedia reflect this type of editorial judgment.") as adding non-notable awards to such a list serves only those non-notable organizations which as a consequence become notable not because of what they do, but because they have Wikipedia mentions. --Gonnym (talk) 11:08, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- We should rely on WP:notability and other long-standing guidelines. Awards that get in-depth coverage in independent third party reliable sources get articles. Note that 'local person wins obscure award' coverage is not in depth coverage of the obscure award but of local person. Those articles can be expanded (with lists of winners, lists of judges, etc) where those are found in reliable sources, as per WP:Article size. Breaking out by year or category requires than each year or category has received in-depth coverage in independent third party reliable sources. Stuartyeates (talk) 23:56, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
I strongly suggest this discussion be {hat}ed. A closely overlapping RfC is scheduled to close in a day or so. A new Village Pump discussion can be started, if appropriate, with more clarity and focus once that RfC closes. Alsee (talk) 16:30, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- I’m of the opinion that that discussion should have been hatted long ago. That RFC in that place is not capable of producing a binding consensus on the topic it deviated into. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 23:38, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- I disagree. I do not see it deviating from its original topic. With 34 editors contributing to the discussion, some more than once, it seems the issue answered all the possible questions someone might have and if viewing its "vote" count it would seem those in favor of limiting award lists articles to only notable awards are almost twice as many as those against (18 in favor, 10 oppose (with one writing "No" but his comment seemed more as a support) and 6 commented in the discussion without stating clearly their opinion). --Gonnym (talk) 08:51, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- But that RFC was asking whether our guidelines already do limit award list articles. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 00:48, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- I disagree. I do not see it deviating from its original topic. With 34 editors contributing to the discussion, some more than once, it seems the issue answered all the possible questions someone might have and if viewing its "vote" count it would seem those in favor of limiting award lists articles to only notable awards are almost twice as many as those against (18 in favor, 10 oppose (with one writing "No" but his comment seemed more as a support) and 6 commented in the discussion without stating clearly their opinion). --Gonnym (talk) 08:51, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
Comment: Awards don't seem to qualify as "promotional items" in the usual sense, something that exists primarily to promote or sell, like a promotional T-shirt printed with an advertising message. Insofar as awards recognize superior achievement, they have an inherent promotional value, but they are about evaluating merit, not selling stuff. This does not seem like a reason to create special list inclusion guidelines specifically for awards. --Tsavage (talk) 01:13, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
Welcome or reject mention of Google doodles throughout the encyclopaedia?
I hope that this was not discussed already. I couldn’t find anything about it except this in a noticeboard.
I regularly see, freshly added to articles, the mention that the topic of the article (often, a person) was the subject of one of Google’s “doodles”. Often, such mention is placed in a “legacy and honors” (or similar) section, as shown in this most recent example.
One could view those mentions either as
- welcome additions to encyclopaedic content that make articles more complete and useful;
or as
- trivial information that, taken as a whole (throughout the encyclopaedia), amounts to pervasive spam and is better avoided (except for special cases).
I hold the latter opinion but others may disagree. So I would like to propose, assuming that it hasn’t been done before, that we clarify whether this quasi-systematic mention of Google doodles is, in fact, welcome or not. Regardless of the outcome, I think that it would be a good thing to have an archive of the discussion about it, so that people like me can refer to it and know what to do (or not to do).
To start, here’s my take on this issue.
Regardless of what one may think of the actual doodle (the graphic artwork published by Google), and of the general popularity enjoyed by the corporation and its doodles, the fact that a subject was chosen by a handful of Google employees as inspiration for an amusing illustration of the day does not constitute any particularly great recognition of a person or topic, worthy of mention in an encyclopaedia. It constitutes, at best, trivia.
It is not rare to find trivia in Wikipedia articles, and such trivia can be entertaining and interesting. However, not all trivia is equal. The article on Veuve Clicquot mentions that the company’s product is featured in the motion picture Casablanca, but the article on Casablanca is mum on the topic, and rightfully so. When the article on Humphrey Bogart mentions the “Bogart” issue of the Phantom, it is probably acceptable because it’s a notable and rare occurrence in the history of the series, with much work devoted to the topic. Google doodle’s, on the other hand, come often, cover all kinds of topic, have no end in sight and promise to therefore appear throughout the entire encyclopaedia, at Google’s whim. Additionally, they are associated to little work on Google’s part (besides the single piece of graphic artwork). If Claude Monet is mentioned in the article on water lilies, it is because of extensive and enduring work on those subjects. If he is cursorily mentioned again (among other artists) in the article on roses, it’s for similar reasons, with the addition of a recognised trend. Should he then also receive mention in the articles on poppies, willows, poplars, etc.? Probably not (thankfully, he doesn’t).
Given what they are, the amount of press coverage received by Google’s doodles is rather stunning and that fact has been used to argue in favour of the lists of Google doodles maintained on Wikipedia. Press coverage is often (but not always) prompted by the topic’s popularity, and one should not confuse one for the other. I find that such coverage (see the Washington Post and Gizmodo for examples) typically carries little information of interest (besides repeating what any encyclopaedia says better). After all, those among their readers who use Google’s search engine cannot easily miss the doodle; those who don’t probably do not care and if they do, well it’s one trivial click away. In other words, it’s neither great art (not more than, say, the daily Dilbert) nor great news. So why do press outlets slavishly cover the doodles? Perhaps, a few do it out of fanboyishness but I’d wager that most only seek to ride Google’s coattails. Such coverage (basically, free advertisement) is precisely what Google seeks with its doodles. And, in return, it effectively (through the miracles of SEO algorithms) and tangibly rewards the covering site with a top spot on the doodle’s “results” page and with extra inbound traffic.
Do we want Wikipedia to be part of this? Do we want to give Google free advertising space throughout the encyclopaedia, in exchange for some extra traffic? Since Wikipedia is not in the business of selling advertising space, I believe that the answer should be, unequivocally, “no”.
In the end, I’d be in favour of the systematic review and, if appropriate, deletion of such mentions already in the encyclopaedia. I am also in favour of a bot flagging all freshly-added references to Google doodles, allowing for review and reversion as appropriate, along with a notice on the talk page of the user adding such reference to help him understand the reasons for the deletion. I am not against references to the rare doodles that may have achieved special notability through some other event (hypothetical example: some famous artist creates artwork that is based on a Google doodle). I am not opposed to having lists of the Google doodles on dedicated pages as currently done; though I don’t find them particularly useful (after all, Google publishes a much better list), they’re not harmful either.
Thanks for reading and sincere apologies if this had already been debated.
—Wlgrin 03:46, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- WP:10 year test. I agree, mention of Google Doodles is usually trivia that quickly becomes worthless. Alsee (talk) 16:43, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- I see it as comparable to WP:XKCD. We don’t (or shouldn’t) edit Wikipedia for every xkcd reference. We likewise shouldn’t edit Wikipedia for every Google Doodle. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 23:48, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- It's just more of the "foo in popular culture" crap that already degrades the quality of many articles as it is. And no, it is not relevant to virtually any article to which it is added. I'd favour a blanket removal. Resolute 23:50, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- For any pop culture reference thing, I always look to third-party/secondary non-Google sources that make more than a passing mention, in this case, that X was the feature of a Google Doodle. That rarely happens for the most part. Just being there, I totally agree we should not mention it. --MASEM (t) 00:01, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- While the Lists of Google Doodles are okay, I would generally consider references to them in individual articles to be trivia, which should usually be removed/avoided. The doodles themselves aren't really special anymore now that there's a new one nearly every day. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 00:41, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Don't mention them. Google is a commercial site that sells advertising. Why give it free publicity? There are other search engines. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 22:59, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Don't mention - unless there is a specific case that passes WP:GNG. For example, a Google doodle could become widely covered if it was deemed to be somehow newsworthy, by being historic or offensive or drawn by Kim Jong Un or whatever. —МандичкаYO 😜 04:49, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
RfC: Guidance on commas after Jr. and Sr.
The above § RfC: Guidance on commas before Jr. and Sr. has been closed with the decision to allow the comma before Jr. or Sr. to be optional provided that each article is interally consistent. Accordingly, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies § Names §§ First mention §§§ Child named for parent or predecessor has been amended to read:
Editors may use or omit a comma before Jr. or Sr. so long as each article is internally consistent. Do not place a comma before a Roman numeral designation. Examples: Sammy Davis Jr.; Martin Luther King, Sr.; Otis D. Wright II, not Otis D. Wright, II.
Hopefully this will avoid ongoing arguments on which is the "right" form for individual subjects (based on their preferences or sources' preferences) and won't lead to editwarring (see MOS:DATERET for the guideline avoiding similar editwarring over date formats).
As flagged in the previous discussion, this raises the issue of commas appearing after Jr. and Sr.. All style guides state that, if a comma is used before, a matching comma must appear afterwards if the sentence continues—acting as an appositive, much like commas after dates in MDY format (MOS:DATEFORMAT) and after city–state combinations (MOS:COMMA).
Style guides on commas before and after Jr. and Sr.
|
---|
|
Unfortunately, many editors are not aware of this rule in English and sometimes argue against it. Therefore, I recommend this section be further amended as follows:
Editors may use or omit a comma before Jr. or Sr. so long as each article is internally consistent (Sammy Davis Jr. or Martin Luther King, Sr.). If using a comma before, also include a comma after Jr. or Sr. if the sentence continues (John D. Rockefeller, Jr., was an American financer and philanthropist...).
Do not place a comma before a Roman numeral designation (Otis D. Wright II, not Otis D. Wright, II).
—sroc 💬 05:54, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
Guidance on commas after Jr. and Sr.: Comments
- [Support:] Yes, if a comma goes before, it goes after. Standard logical clause construction. NB. Much prefer the British style where Jr and Sr do not need the period. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:21, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support the use of proposed addition. Consistency is a poor justification for going against WP:UCRN. GregKaye 06:34, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- User:GregKaye - what does requiring the second comma have to do with WP:UCRN? Dohn joe (talk) 16:54, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Dohn joe My personal preference is that we should generally use a form of name that corresponds to WP:RECOGNIZABILITY and WP:NATURALNESS. Unless there are other pressing concerns, these are the considerations we, I think, should predominantly follow the way things are normally done for that person. WP:UCRN presents that: "
Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural.
" GregKaye 18:56, 14 May 2015 (UTC)- User:GregKaye - agreed. But again, what does that have to do with whether we allow "John Smith, Jr., was..." and/or "John Smith, Jr. was..."? This RfC is only about whether we require that second comma after Jr. or not, not how we present the name (except for cases below like the Rockefeller library). I'm still confused about the relevance of wp:ucrn. Dohn joe (talk) 19:04, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Dohn joe My personal preference is that we should generally use a form of name that corresponds to WP:RECOGNIZABILITY and WP:NATURALNESS. Unless there are other pressing concerns, these are the considerations we, I think, should predominantly follow the way things are normally done for that person. WP:UCRN presents that: "
- User:GregKaye - what does requiring the second comma have to do with WP:UCRN? Dohn joe (talk) 16:54, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Dohn joe My apologies for not understanding what you were saying. My support is mainly for the inclusion of examples such as "
Sammy Davis Jr. or Martin Luther King, Sr.
". I still think the commas content makes reasonable sense but you are right to point that this has nothing to do with issues relating to prevalence of use. GregKaye 19:40, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Dohn joe My apologies for not understanding what you were saying. My support is mainly for the inclusion of examples such as "
Oppose - What are you trying to do? The whole proposal that you have supported had no consensus. I checked the closed discussion, and you're still persistent on having all commas before successor or predecessor omitted. Also, you haven't contacted or pinged Go Phightins!, who accurately closed the previous discussion. Well, I'm still in favor of omitting a comma, but not when sources are divided or when consensus opposes it. This is instructional creep. --George Ho (talk) 07:04, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- @George Ho: What are you on about? This RfC isn't about the comma before Jr. or Sr.—it's about the separate issue of providing guidance for the comma after Jr. or Sr. All style guides say if there's a comma before there must be a comma after. That's all this RfC seeks to add to the guideline for clarification. —sroc 💬 15:21, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Note that this proposal was already flagged in the previous RfC:
The result of that RfC allows for the comma before, so this RfC is about the comma after, exactly as previously stated. —sroc 💬 15:47, 14 May 2015 (UTC)Note: This RfC only concerns the comma before Jr. and Sr. If the result allows for that comma, then a follow-up discussion may be necessary regarding guidance on a comma after Jr. or Sr.
- My bad. If you're concerned about a comma after Jr or Sr, perhaps I was mistaken. I struck original vote, so I will make a fresher one. George Ho (talk) 18:37, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Weak support - Look like an instructional creep, but a comma after Jr/Sr makes more sense when a comma before Jr/Sr is added. No comma before, no comma after, however. And I wouldn't care about regional differences as long as commas are properly used.
- Oppose, it's an archaic style that's still listed in quite a few places and used in even less. The Jr. or Sr. without a comma has been the standard way of using the style as long as Jr. and Sr. have existed, or at least in my experience, which is almost as long. Official names, such as the Martin Luther King, Jr. Memorial, don't use it, probably because it makes things look worse instead of better and is so uncommon that the mind latches onto it and won't let go, like some kind of little dog sitting there growling at the preceding period. Randy Kryn 10:54, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Randy Kryn: That would be a good argument to do away with the commas altogether, but that argument has been and gone. English construction and style guides universally agree that a comma before requires a comma after. The fact that some sources flout this rule is no reason for this encyclopedia to follow in their folly. —sroc 💬 15:56, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose - The recently closed RFC closure on the issue of commas before Jr. or Sr. (essentially saying that we should have no rule other than "be internally consistent" within an article) reflected a practical and common sense approach that accounts for our lack of consensus on the issue. I think the same approach should be applied to the question of commas after... The important thing is for the style to be internally consistent within any given article. More than that is unnecessary instruction creep. Blueboar (talk) 13:33, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Blueboar: Style guides generally agree that commas may be included or omitted (the trend is to omit them) but all agree that a comma before requires a comma after. If we're consistent within each article about whether or not to have the comma before, "common sense" requires that we also be consistent about whether or not to include the comma after. —sroc 💬 15:24, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose I'm fairly certain this covention is completely unknown in British English - were any of the "all style guides" for BE? People should be more careful about this. Even in AE it doesn't seem to me to be what is usual. Just in case it is adopted it should be made clear that this applies within AE only, for ENGVAR purposes. Johnbod (talk) 14:01, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support – The following comma is required in both British English and American English, and always has been (I'm a Briton). If the form with the comma before is to be allowed, the following comma must also be required. RGloucester — ☎ 14:24, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- This is simply nonsense! Johnbod (talk) 15:17, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- There is nothing "nonsense" about it. Yes, we don't generally use "junior" and "senior" suffixes in British English. However, the rules of comma usage remain the same. Completing the apposition requires a following comma. Take a look at this guide here, which explains the use of commas with appositives quite well. In the American context, one might look at this Chicago style guide bit, which notes the necessary nature of the following comma. RGloucester — ☎ 15:09, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- This is simply nonsense! Johnbod (talk) 15:17, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support Now I know why the British omit the period, so you do not have to argue of the mid sentence period. I agree that you should have a comma after a mid sentence period, except after Mr. and Dr. and others that are name prefixes, but that has nothing to do with changing the titles of articles. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 15:52, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose. It may be that all style guides that address the issue recommend using the second comma, but there are two complications. 1) Not all style guides even discuss this relatively minor point of punctuation. 2) In practice, many reputable sources leave out the second comma, regardless of the preferences of style guides. For example:
- Routledge: Cromwell, Adelaide M. An African Victorian Feminist: The Life and Times of Adelaide Smith Casely Hayford 1848-1960. p.31. 2014.
- Oxford University Press: Lischer, Richard. The Preacher King: Martin Luther King, Jr. and the Word that Moved America. p.197. 1995.
- Many more (see for yourself with this Google Books search).
- We have also already come across the case where WP editors have decided that the second comma might not be a part of the name of something. For example:
- Leaving out the second comma in general does nothing to change the ability of our readers to comprehend the meaning of the sentence. Despite style guides' efforts, the second comma is quite often left out, even in reputable, professionally edited sources. Real-world usage shows that both using and leaving out the second comma is acceptable in English. WP should therefore allow both styles, as long as an article is internally consistent. Any particularly strong argument for including or omitting the second comma should be taken up on a case-by-case basis. Dohn joe (talk) 16:41, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Dohn joe: The fact that some sources don't follow proper punctuation is no reason for this encyclopedia to follow in their folly. Cases like the Memorial Parkway (where even the "official" sources disagreed on the punctuation) show exactly why we should have proper guidance on this to avoid recurring debates by editors who are singularly focussed on particular articles without a considered understanding of this specific punctuation issue. —sroc 💬 03:55, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- User:sroc - the point is that style guides do not have a monopoly on what is "proper punctuation." Usage in reputable, professionally edited sources is good evidence of what is proper usage. When a significant portion of sources use a style (as with not using a second comma after Jr.), then WP should be allowed to permit usage of that style. Dohn joe (talk) 15:36, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Dohn joe: Prescriptivism vs descriptivism. I would rather defer to style guides on matters of style. If there was some leeway in some style guides then I might accept the argument, but all the style guides I've seen say comma before requires a comma after; none concede that the comma after is optional when the comma before is used. It's poor form for an encyclopedia's style guide to go against all style guides on proper punctuation. —sroc 💬 04:22, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- If this is folly, as you repeat, then the U.S. government is guilty of folly (not for the first time, if truth be told) over and over again. The comma after a Jr. or Sr. would change the name of institutions and memorials, of books and beanstalks. As I said, the use of comma after such a word combination misses the point of clear and clean language, and just adds more data into something which doesn't need to be explained. Randy Kryn 11:10, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- The comma is there precisely because it makes for "clear" language by following standard logical rules, as explained by the mentioned style guides. Some sources fail (for example, it has been said that newspapers omit the comma after MDY dates and city–state conjunctions to economise on space in narrow columns) and often disagree (for example, the same geographical feature is "officially" named as "John D. Rockefeller, Junior, Memorial Parkway" in founding legislation; "John D. Rockefeller Jr. Memorial Parkway" on signs and publications; and "John D. Rockefeller, Jr. Memorial Parkway" on its website). Where others fail, we should strive for accuracy and encyclopedic standards. —sroc 💬 11:40, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- If this is folly, as you repeat, then the U.S. government is guilty of folly (not for the first time, if truth be told) over and over again. The comma after a Jr. or Sr. would change the name of institutions and memorials, of books and beanstalks. As I said, the use of comma after such a word combination misses the point of clear and clean language, and just adds more data into something which doesn't need to be explained. Randy Kryn 11:10, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Dohn joe: Prescriptivism vs descriptivism. I would rather defer to style guides on matters of style. If there was some leeway in some style guides then I might accept the argument, but all the style guides I've seen say comma before requires a comma after; none concede that the comma after is optional when the comma before is used. It's poor form for an encyclopedia's style guide to go against all style guides on proper punctuation. —sroc 💬 04:22, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- User:sroc - the point is that style guides do not have a monopoly on what is "proper punctuation." Usage in reputable, professionally edited sources is good evidence of what is proper usage. When a significant portion of sources use a style (as with not using a second comma after Jr.), then WP should be allowed to permit usage of that style. Dohn joe (talk) 15:36, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Dohn joe: The fact that some sources don't follow proper punctuation is no reason for this encyclopedia to follow in their folly. Cases like the Memorial Parkway (where even the "official" sources disagreed on the punctuation) show exactly why we should have proper guidance on this to avoid recurring debates by editors who are singularly focussed on particular articles without a considered understanding of this specific punctuation issue. —sroc 💬 03:55, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support - As far as I am concerned, British English uses' this standard. CookieMonster755 (talk) 23:12, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support—if editors are going to use a comma before Sr./Jr., then some form of punctuation is necessary to close the appositive. By default that is another comma, but it could be a semicolon, dash or terminal punctuation. We do this with constructions like "Milwaukee, Wisconsin", so we should be doing this with these types of names. (Dropping the comma completely in these names would simplify things greatly, of course.) Imzadi 1979 → 05:32, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- The comma in the Jr. or Sr. is part of a person's proper name. "Milwaukee" is a proper name on its own, as is "Wisconsin", so in that form the comma is needed, but not if the comma is part of the proper name. Randy Kryn 1:38, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- Except his name is often given simply as "Martin Luther King" and the "Jr." is only added as a distinguishing feature when needed; and in any case, this involves the rules of English punctuation which are supported by the cited style guides—you have provided no style guide references to contradict this. —sroc 💬 01:43, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- King himself used the comma as part of his proper name. The U.S. government, in its naming of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Memorial and Martin Luther King, Jr. Day have set the style in his case. Randy Kryn 1:48, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- Except his name is often given simply as "Martin Luther King" and the "Jr." is only added as a distinguishing feature when needed; and in any case, this involves the rules of English punctuation which are supported by the cited style guides—you have provided no style guide references to contradict this. —sroc 💬 01:43, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support - on the basis of completing the apposition. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:52, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support- logical --L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 18:14, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support as proposed. If anyone doubts this lack of clarity results in editwarring, guess again. —sroc 💬 01:38, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- You began that editwar (I'd rather call it an edit disagreement, or edit snowball fight) by choosing the very prominent Dr. King page to place the awkward after-proper-name commas without a consensus being reached. The consistency in Wikipedia of not using the comma after King's name is present in using the names that the U.S. government has given to the Martin Luther King, Jr. Memorial and Martin Luther King, Jr. Day. Randy Kryn 1:54, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
Notability (breeds)
I have written a very early draft for a notability guideline on animal breeds. I would like to invite editors to comment. Please see Wikipedia talk:Notability (breeds) and Wikipedia:Notability (breeds). Thanks. JTdaleTalk~ 16:25, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- User:SMcCandlish might be interested in this. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:55, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for the ping. I'd been thinking a guideline on this should be established, as we have a few breed articles that look like WP:PROD/WP:AFD material, because they cite few (or single) sources and make no assertion of notability. A handful of them may be "vanity articles" promoting someone's attempt to establish a new breed, which is most often a for-profit concern. We need to discourage creation of such junk articles, while also discouraging the deletion-targeting of articles on actually notable breeds that simply haven't had the citation attention here yet that they deserve. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:17, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- A few other pings off the top of my head: @Peter coxhead, GregKaye, Montanabw, and Justlettersandnumbers: — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:20, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
Commas after first word of lede
Is there a policy of putting a comma after the first word of a lede (see Romania and others)? It's not grammatically correct, and is redundant with the set of parentheses. Whispered (talk) 23:58, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- The applicable guideline is WP:LEADSENTENCE and it says nothing about a comma. You're correct, it's bad punctuation and should be removed. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:04, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for the link to the guideline - the reason I asked instead of simply removing it was it appears on other pages I see too, such as China, but not Berlin. Is it safe to assume I can just remove them if there's not a dependent/descriptive clause immediately following the first word that isn't in parenthesis? Whispered (talk) 00:24, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think there is a grammatical rule against a comma after the first word of a sentence per se. Consider this example from WP:LEADSENTENCE: Mumbai, also known as Bombay, is the capital of the Indian state of Maharashtra. The comma here is used to introduce a parenthetical phrase, which is grammatically correct, according to the article on comma. Simmilarly, the comma in China looks OK. But I agree that the comma in Romania should not be there.--Mhockey (talk) 09:35, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- I have removed the comma from Romania as it was ungrammatical, as you rightly pointed out. It's not a rule that a comma cannot follow the first word in a sentence; it's a question of whether the comma should be there or not. In many articles, the headword is followed by additional information in parentheses (e.g., pronunciation); imagine that the parentheses and everything within them were deleted and, if a comma would be included after the headword, then the comma goes after the parentheses:
- Australia, officially the Commonwealth of Australia, is an Oceanian country ...
- (commas surround clause with the official name)
- Berlin is the capital of Germany and one of the 16 states of Germany.
- (no comma required)
- China, officially the People's Republic of China (PRC), is a sovereign state located in East Asia.
- (commas surround clause with the official name)
- Romania is a unitary semi-presidential republic located in Southeastern-Central Europe ...
- (no comma required)
- Not sure if there is an explicit rule, but by convention at least certain "metadata" (e.g., pronunciation, birth/death dates, etc.) are put in parentheses because they are not part of the prose. Commas are more suited to prose. For example, the above lines read well, but then add in the parentheses:
- Australia (/ɒˈstreɪliə/, /ə-/, colloquially /-jə/), officially the Commonwealth of Australia, is an Oceanian country ...
- Berlin (/bərˈlɪn/, German: [bɛɐ̯ˈliːn] ) is the capital of Germany and one of the 16 states of Germany.
- China (simplified Chinese: 中国; traditional Chinese: 中國; pinyin: Zhōngguó), officially the People's Republic of China (PRC), is a sovereign state located in East Asia.
- Romania (/roʊˈmeɪniə/ roh-MAY-nee-ə; Romanian: România [romɨˈni.a] ) is a unitary semi-presidential republic located in Southeastern-Central Europe ...
- This makes it more readable overall (e.g., you can mentally skip over the parentheses to read the opening line as prose without missing any fundamental meaning). Replacing the commas with parentheses would create a multitude of parentheses for unrelated purposes. Replacing the parentheses with commas would make for some very convoluted opening sentences and make reading the introductory lines more difficult. —sroc 💬 19:31, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Not sure if there is an explicit rule, but by convention at least certain "metadata" (e.g., pronunciation, birth/death dates, etc.) are put in parentheses because they are not part of the prose. Commas are more suited to prose. For example, the above lines read well, but then add in the parentheses:
English policy: So blindly obvious, but...
Over the weekend I had an incident on Wikipedia that convinced me the following needs to be proposed as policy:
All entries in article space need to be in EnglishPreambleIn order to assure all involved that any article satisfies the Five Pillars of Wikipedia, as well as Wikipedia's policies and guidelines the article needs to be able to be read. Since English is the language of this particular wiki, most users on this Wikipedia read English and communicate in English. Further, most of the users on this Wikipedia do not read any other language. Therefore it would be impossible to assure that any article meets the aforementioned Five Pillars and guidelines without being able actually understand what's being written. Therefore any article in the article namespace needs to be in English. InstructionsSince Wikipedia assumes good faith, articles not in English can be moved to the Draft namespace and a tag requesting translation can be added there. That way, there is a mechanism for allowing a non-English submission to be considered for Wikipedia. Once the article is translated in Draft namespace and judged to meet all policies and applicable guidelines, it can then be moved to the article namespace. Any article not in English posted in article namespace should be moved into the Draft namespace and a note to the submitting author must be sent informing them what has happened. This is being done to verify that the article in question doesn't violate copyright, which is a pretty serious issue here, doesn't violate any office actions, and more simply put, that it doesn't violate any Wikipedia policy or guideline. This cannot be done if it's in a language that cannot be read on this Wikipedia (i.e. English). We have other vrrsions of Wikipedia for other languages, therefore, it's not an issue of exclusion, but rather one of making sure that the article meets all guidelines and policies. |
KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 11:02, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
English policy: Support
- Support as proposer, not to mention it's so blindly obvious KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 11:02, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
Supportallnon-English articles should generally be moved to draftspaceon sightwhen they don't qualify for speedy deletion but also can't be fixed up in a short amount of time. With the current process, if someone creates an article about some non-notable nonsense in English then it gets speedied in five seconds, but if the article happens to be in some other language then we give it a two-week grace period to see if it gets translated and/or it may get forgotten entirely -- this doesn't make any sense to me and dealing with these articles is pretty annoying. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 11:36, 18 May 2015 (UTC) amended — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 17:23, 18 May 2015 (UTC)- Amending my !vote: this doesn't necessarily have to be a new policy page, it can also be written into some other policy or information page, and described as a standard/approved/okay method of dealing with non-English articles. But also it doesn't have to be mandatory to move every non-English article into draftspace (if an editor feels that it will be easy enough to turn that article into something worthy of inclusion on Wikipedia, i.e. they understand what the topic is and have the time to work on it). — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 14:55, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- I think this is the essence of just do it! If you can translate the article, do it! But if you can't or don't have the time right now, add it to the list at WP:PNT and you or someone else can get to it soon. Is it easy enough to move an article back from Drafts to the mainspace, or does this require an admin to move over a redirect? —sroc 💬 15:58, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- After moving an article to draftspace, the redirect that gets created after the move should be speedied as R2. Cross-namespace redirects -- articlespace redirects that redirect to the Draft namespace should get deleted. So, assuming some time has passed and the redirect has been deleted, it will be easy to move the draft back to mainspace. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 16:11, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- I think this is the essence of just do it! If you can translate the article, do it! But if you can't or don't have the time right now, add it to the list at WP:PNT and you or someone else can get to it soon. Is it easy enough to move an article back from Drafts to the mainspace, or does this require an admin to move over a redirect? —sroc 💬 15:58, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Another amendment: as said I don't necessarily support the creation of a new policy, but, wherever it is written, we should not include this part: "This cannot be done if it's in a language that cannot be read on this Wikipedia (English)." -- we can indeed judge articles even if they're in a language we can't understand, it can often be possible to determine (like by using a translator) if an article is total baloney or not. We can do it and we're allowed to, too. (And then tag for speedy (with an explanation for deleting admin if necessary) instead of moving to draftspace.) — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 17:14, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support-ish. I don't see that we need to enshrine in policy the fact that this is the English Wikipedia, but I'm a big fan of the idea of automatically moving non-English submissions into Draft-space. Yunshui 雲水 11:58, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Yunshui: What do you think of my counter-proposal below? —sroc 💬 14:11, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support – Anything that makes WP:ENGLISH stronger is welcome in my view. --IJBall (talk) 13:06, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support - yes, I think that this should be obvious; however, I think that draftifying non-English articles is better than either keeping them in the mainspace or deleting them outright. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:10, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Od Mishehu: What do you think of my counter-proposal below? —sroc 💬 14:11, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support This will only have positive effects.Bosstopher (talk) 13:11, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support As per above. A no-brainer IMO. Regards Aloha27 talk 13:13, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support I don't know if there's something in the water but there seem to be more and more non-English articles turning up at NPP (or simply I'm noticing them more), and investigating why people are not inclined to put them in the right language Wikipedia is probably also worth investigating. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:52, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support as per above. But are there any non-English articles in mainspace, or is this preventive? Robert McClenon (talk) 13:54, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon: See Category:Wikipedia articles needing translation. Winner 42 Talk to me! 13:58, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support This is a fairly common sense proposal. It is preferable to the current status quo of tagging them for translation and leaving them in article space. Winner 42 Talk to me! 13:58, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Winner 42: So move them and tag them. We don't need a policy for this. See my counter-proposal below. —sroc 💬 14:11, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support, I have seen non-English articles in mainspace before, most of which get mopped up in the NPP process. I have also seen articles that have been vandalized and left with completely non-English text for months though, so I would add the cautionary note of "any editor who is preparing to move a non-English page to the draft namespace must check the edit history to see if there is an English version that can be restored". Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:26, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support. Duh. This is the English wiki, if someone wants an article in a different language, it should be directed to that language's wiki. GregJackP Boomer! 15:19, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support. Lingua anglicana est universale.--Sigehelmus (talk) 22:55, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support it really is a no-brainer. Get them into draft space so they can be translated and verified more easily. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:53, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
English policy: Oppose
- Oppose creating a new policy to say we can do this. There is nothing in any policy that says we can not move (not cut and paste) an article that is not ready from the mainspace to the draft space. An article that is not written in English is not ready for the mainspace so there is nothing stopping us from moving it. The creator should be notified where the article was moved to and why, so they can work on it. -- GB fan 12:14, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Well that's an option too: we don't need a policy for this, if an editor is still allowed to move an article into draftspace for the main reason that it's not in English. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 12:31, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose the proposed policy as unnecessary. I have an alternative proposal set out below which I think is a lot simpler and easier to implement. —sroc 💬 14:05, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose This is a good example of an idea with a lot of merit, but some flaws that need addressing. A candidate for the Idea Lab to work out the kinks before asking for an up or down vote. Examples of kinks:
- Suppose I run across an article in mainspace in another language, which when translated, is absolute gibberish, and qualifies as a G1. Of course, after moving to draft space I can delete it as a G1, but this policy, as written, requires that I move it to draft space first. If I do not, I am potentially santionable for violating policy.
- Rinse and repeat for an article which is a clear copyvio, but in another language.
- Or an article which is an attack. Yes, this could be fixed, but there are other issues to address. It states that the article will be moved to draft to verify that the article in question doesn't violate copyright . Moving an article to draft space doesn't solve the copyright problem. We don't have an exception that allows copyvios in draft space. There are other issues as well, so it isn't the case that a couple minor copy edits will make this acceptable as is. That said, it has promise.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:57, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- These are problems that we already have. Currently it's not possible to speedy an article simply because it's non-English, and often that's a problem because we can't tell whether the article complies with policy or not. It could be blatant vandalism but we have to keep it for at least two weeks until someone can identify what we're dealing with. Moving that kind of an article out of mainspace (and to somewhere where search engines can't find it) is a good compromise. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 15:07, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, it is possible to speedy an existing article in another language. (After re-reading, I guess you are saying that simply being in non-English is not a sufficient reason for CSD, but as I'll explain, I can identify valid CSDs even though my language skills are minimal.) I can tell that something is a copyvio if it is clearly an exact copy of a published item. Google translate is deficient for some purposes, but if Google Translate produces John Doe is a well-know child molester I don't need a competent human translator to tell me it can be deleted. If the article is created by a banned or blocked user, I don't even need to translate the content. Yet, this proposed policy says I should move it to draft space first. Why?--S Philbrick(Talk) 16:57, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Does it really say that? That you must? I'm not seeing it. If you can tell that an article qualifies for speedy then of course you can speedy it, I don't think anyone would argue that. Though in cases like this you may have to leave a note behind explaining how it qualifies, if it's not immediately obvious to admins who do the deleting. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 17:03, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, it is possible to speedy an existing article in another language. (After re-reading, I guess you are saying that simply being in non-English is not a sufficient reason for CSD, but as I'll explain, I can identify valid CSDs even though my language skills are minimal.) I can tell that something is a copyvio if it is clearly an exact copy of a published item. Google translate is deficient for some purposes, but if Google Translate produces John Doe is a well-know child molester I don't need a competent human translator to tell me it can be deleted. If the article is created by a banned or blocked user, I don't even need to translate the content. Yet, this proposed policy says I should move it to draft space first. Why?--S Philbrick(Talk) 16:57, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose as unnecessary bureaucracy. Speaking as one of the half dozen or so editors who handle non-English articles at PNT every single day, we always deal with these articles in the best and most efficient way possible. This can be one of many ways, sometimes they're translated, becoming valuable articles, sometimes they are speedy deleted if they meet a criteria (and yes I'll admit that I usually IAR delete the essays and rants we often get), sometimes they are prodded/blpprodded or afd'd if we think they're not worth translating, if we think they are worth an article but can't translate them ourselves we leave them (and after two weeks they are prodded and deleted it not translated) and yes we sometimes userfy them if we feel they were created in good faith and that . To just point out how small a problem this is, currently there are 6 articles (out of 6,839,325) that are entirely not in English, 3 of which are currently prodded. Trying to enforce a firm rule that all non-English articles be immediately userfied is just overkill, and a good way to prevent potential good articles, the current system works just fine, the article which started this whole drama-fest being a perfect example.--Jac16888 Talk 17:18, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:CREEP. We already have processes for non-English articles. While they are not perfect they work well enough, better than this clunky idea would anyway. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:04, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose per Jac16888 who says the current system is working fine. Also, we assume good faith until shown otherwise. We don't assume the article may be "dodgy" just because we can't read it. SpinningSpark 18:22, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose There is already an established procedure for translating non-English articles, Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English. This happened to me once. I created a new article by copy-pasting the French language version, then proceeded to translate it in place. I expected this to be a quick task, but got sidetracked and then interrupted by an offline event. (I should have created it in the draft space, but this requires an admin request.) For my trouble I got templated that I should first list the article for translation, and then come back and translate it. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:07, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- * Comment Actually it doesn't require admin permissions. I've created a draft space article and I'm definitely not an admin. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 20:14, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Even IPs can create draftspace pages. o_O — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 20:16, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- True! But unfortunately moving the draft article to the mainspace causes a redirect to be left behind, which then requires a CSD (admin request) to delete. So I try to avoid this whenever I possibly can. Sorry, I did not make myself clear. Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:53, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- Redirects from draftspace to mainspace are okay. AFC reviewers leave them behind all the time. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 09:06, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Hawkeye7: When moving an article there is an option to not leave behind a redirect = uncheck the "leave a redirect behind" box. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:42, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Ceyockey: Not true if you aren't an admin. Though I have been pushing for allowing this permission for non admins recently, it has been met with resistance. EoRdE6(Come Talk to Me!) 00:45, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- @EoRdE6: Ahhh. I did not realize this was an admin-only function. Apologies and thanks for highlighting that. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:58, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Ceyockey: Not true if you aren't an admin. Though I have been pushing for allowing this permission for non admins recently, it has been met with resistance. EoRdE6(Come Talk to Me!) 00:45, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- True! But unfortunately moving the draft article to the mainspace causes a redirect to be left behind, which then requires a CSD (admin request) to delete. So I try to avoid this whenever I possibly can. Sorry, I did not make myself clear. Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:53, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- Even IPs can create draftspace pages. o_O — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 20:16, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- * Comment Actually it doesn't require admin permissions. I've created a draft space article and I'm definitely not an admin. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 20:14, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose revoking WP:PNT#Standard procedures without the proposer either acknowledging its long-standing acceptance or notifying the page that he hopes to revoke it (perhaps he just didn't know that it exists? Nobody can keep up with everything around here, because there are so many pages). In fact, most of the above "votes" don't seem to know that we have a procedure for handling such pages. I expect they all would have guessed that "edit-war to blank the page" isn't it, though. Jeraphine, Yunshui, IJBall, Od, Bosstopher, Aloha27, Ritchie333, Robert, Winner, Luke, Greg, I'd be interested in knowing how many of you were aware of the standard procedure before this discussion, and whether you think that years-old advice is probably an adequate approach, or if you still think we need yet another policy or guideline for the occasional article that isn't written in English. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:39, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- I was aware of the standard procedure when !voting, and have looked at and speedied persian article on WP:PNT from time to time. I voted under the assumption that if this passed, PNT would still function, only pages translated would be temporarily moved to draftspace first. This seems like the most common sense solution.Bosstopher (talk) 21:50, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- I can see why a reasonable person might hope for that, but this policy would actually preclude the standard procedure. The proposed policy prohibits leaving a non-English article in the mainspace for two weeks (= it prohibits "the standard procedure"). The editors at PNT do not handle articles anywhere else (by choice, and those WP:VOLUNTEERS are the only ones who get to make that choice). It is not possible to have "the new policy" and "the standard procedure" operating at the same time. "There must never be articles needing translation in the mainspace" and "We only translate articles in the mainspace" cannot function at the same time.
- The potential for confusion is why I'm unhappy about the failure to be more explicit about the policy's effects. I am worried that some people are voting for a benign-sounding, commonsensical statement without understanding that the intended outcome is to eliminate a long-standing process. This proposal amounts to revoking PNT's standard procedure, although it doesn't come out and say so in ways that will be clearly understood by everyone. If you want to change an old process, that's fine, but IMO you should say so, using words that cannot possibly be misunderstood (e.g., "I propose stopping the bad old way and replacing it with this obviously better idea:").
- The immediate history also gives me pause: The precipitating incident is that the proposer blanked an article (three times in three hours, if the comment below is correct) and was told that the standard procedure is to tag it and wait for two weeks. He was not satisfied with waiting for two weeks, so he proposes here a policy to override it. However, he does not mention the existing standard procedure. He gives only the briefest mention that he lost a dispute because of it. The sole practical effect of his proposed policy is to revoke the process that caused him to lose the dispute. He makes no acknowledgement of how this proposal affects longstanding processes. I've spent years around policy pages, and I can tell you that this situation is a fairly reliable recipe for disaster and drama. If you want to kill an old process, then you need to tell to people that you're doing it.
- Note that I don't mind changing old processes, if that's what people want to do. I've done it myself. My only requirement is that supporters understand that's the point of the proposal and say that they're intentionally replacing an old process. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:38, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- I think it's very simple to keep the old and new processes in place at the same time. You just apply all the same rules to the drafts that you would to non english articles, and speedy them if no one translates after two weeks. A venue for translation is still maintained and you don't end up with old non-english articles on god-knows-what languishing about in draftspace. Best of both worlds.Bosstopher (talk) 23:46, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- This proposal doesn't actually do what you want it to do. (The alternate below does something close, but the original does not.)
- In my experience it is never "simple" to force volunteers do things that they do not choose to do, and the volunteers at PNT have already said that they have no interest in doing what you want them to do. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:43, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- First of all I am someone who volunteers from time to time at PNT (as is GregJackP who supported the proposal and responded to you below), and in my capacity as someone who does so I believe its better to not have completely non-english articles languishing about in mainspace, and I would completely willingly move non-english articles to draft space. Also can you point me to exactly where the collective you refer to as the "volunteers at PNT" have unanimously opposed this decision? As for the proposal not doing what i think its supposed to do, this seems to be another example of an incredibly simple and beneficial change being bogged down in Village pump bureaucracy. I'm sure the closing admin will be able to interpret what I mean.Bosstopher (talk) 16:48, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- I base my statement about the volunteers at PNT on the comment below: "There is a long-held consensus, re-affirmed just a few weeks ago, at PNT that draft articles do not fall within our scope of work..." by User:Jac16888. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:13, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for directing me to that. Although I'd forgotten about it, I actually took part in that discussion and at the time (although I didnt write it because enough other people had) was opposed to the idea of putting all non-english drafts in PNT. However, I think this case is very different to that, as only drafts that were intitially posted in article space would be brought to PNT for temporary holding, as opposed to any gibberish written in draftspace. I think it's an apples and oranges situation. Bosstopher (talk) 20:22, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- I base my statement about the volunteers at PNT on the comment below: "There is a long-held consensus, re-affirmed just a few weeks ago, at PNT that draft articles do not fall within our scope of work..." by User:Jac16888. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:13, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- I think it's very simple to keep the old and new processes in place at the same time. You just apply all the same rules to the drafts that you would to non english articles, and speedy them if no one translates after two weeks. A venue for translation is still maintained and you don't end up with old non-english articles on god-knows-what languishing about in draftspace. Best of both worlds.Bosstopher (talk) 23:46, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- I was aware also, and have tagged many such articles. I've also watched articles not be translated for significant periods of time. However, I don't think that we need to keep articles which are not written in English. BTW, your comment was very condescending, I guess us mere non-WMF editors wouldn't have thought of other options. GregJackP Boomer! 22:53, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- It's worth noting that the existing standard procedure predates the existence of the Draft namespace, and therefore might be due an overhaul with the new option in mind. That's probably something for the appropriate talkpage, though. It's my opinion that the suggestions offered here, especially the alternative version below, constitute an improvement on the current process. Yunshui 雲水 07:50, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- I was aware of the standard procedure when !voting, and have looked at and speedied persian article on WP:PNT from time to time. I voted under the assumption that if this passed, PNT would still function, only pages translated would be temporarily moved to draftspace first. This seems like the most common sense solution.Bosstopher (talk) 21:50, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose Over at Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga we use a template called Template:nihongo, not everything should be in English per WP:BIAS. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:59, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose I agree with Beeblebrox that this is nothing but WP:CREEP. There is no need to have a policy or guideline to state that the English Wikipedia should in English. —Farix (t | c) 00:31, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose (a) the proposal incorrectly implies that there is a single english language and (b) articles have very good and well established grounds for using non-English languages (be it Japanese, Arabic; Latin or native american languages) in places (alternative names, linguistic examples, etc, etc); many articles would be significantly impaired with those. Stuartyeates (talk) 10:43, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose per several comments above. Most notably, we already delete or translate articles written in foreign languages, so this proposed policy does not actually accomplish anything. As such, it is unnecessary WP:CREEP. Resolute 14:10, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- Comment Knowledgekid87 Bias huh ? Note the proposal is for articles not templates (I'm also a self-described Otaku :) ) TheFarix I actually agree, this shouldn't have to be policy, I would have thought it common sense, however this little incident told me otherwise. SpinningSpark AGF is not a suicide pact, further, author editors, even in good faith sometimes run afoul of copyright concerns because they're not aware of how ours works (and BLP as well ). KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 15:42, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- The template makes both Japanese and English text appear on the page, we also have Japanese names as article titles and as character names (as such the name would be included in the article's body) per WP:COMMONNAME. By all in English do you mean all content of a given article? I want to have an open mind but please specify as it sounds too broad if I read "All entries in article space need to be in English" right. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:29, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- @KoshVorlon: I would support your proposal for entries that are written fully in another language or a certain percentage of the article, there has to be some kind of footnotes/exceptions though if this is to become policy. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:40, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- Kosh, you continue to refer to your "little incident" as why this change needs to be made, and yet the article which started all of this (Detective Willy for anyone not already aware), was, once properly reported to PNT, translated and then prodded within a few hours of being created, similarly a dozen+ other articles have been created and dealt with in the time since then - I don't see how any of this is problematic. If anything your incident shows that, when procedure if actually followed, the system we have works great --Jac16888 Talk 20:41, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- "Hard cases make bad law" or in this case bad policy/guidelines. It's clear in that discussion that you didn't follow already existing procedures for handling such types of articles. But I honestly don't see the need for a policy over just one incident. —Farix (t | c) 20:20, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose. If it ain't broken, don't fix it. The current process is working fine, and no non-English article is kept any longer than necessary. De728631 (talk) 18:30, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose: no pressing need to adopt an English only policy for the first appearance of an article. A working proceedure is in place. — Neonorange (talk) 21:22, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- Comment For those opposing, please see this recent posting to WP:AN where the the reverse happened. Just so I'm totally clear, I'm not suggesting that if we have an article about a Japanese term, or a Spanish term, that we can't use the Spanish or Japanese word itself, nor am I suggesting that that word be written out in the English alphabet. What I'm suggesting is that any article in article space needs to be in English, currently we're getting entries in article space that are 100% not English. I'm suggesting that they be placed in draft space where they can be translated , then judged to be in compliance with all applicable Wikipedia policies and guildelines. That's it, simple, obvious and very much common sense. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 11:00, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
- You mean the posting which shows that when a non-english article is submitted to the proper place, it is dealt within just a few hours? A perfect example to me of how well the current PNT system works, when of course it it is actually used rather than ignored--Jac16888 Talk 16:32, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
- Except that article space is the wrong place for non-English articles. So no, it wasn't in the proper place. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 16:42, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Not sure if you're intentionally misunderstood my point there or not. By "proper place", I mean PNT, as in, a user followed procedure and logged it there, and then it was resolved shortly afterwards. In fact had you done so yourself, or had you actually moved it to the draftspace properly (that being one way we do deal with non-english articles already anyway), there would have been no issue. I feel I have to ask this, as you've never actually addressed this: please can you tell me that you understand why blanking a page or copying and pasting it to another place is a bad thing--Jac16888 Talk 17:00, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Jac16888 - yeah, I did. I consider article space to not be the proper place for articles not in English, rather I'd say Draft space is. The article was in article space when I first ran across it. Yes, I agree PNT acted correctly by translating the article, I wasn't trying to change the process that got the article translated, rather the fact that the article should have been in article space prior to translation. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 15:29, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- Not sure if you're intentionally misunderstood my point there or not. By "proper place", I mean PNT, as in, a user followed procedure and logged it there, and then it was resolved shortly afterwards. In fact had you done so yourself, or had you actually moved it to the draftspace properly (that being one way we do deal with non-english articles already anyway), there would have been no issue. I feel I have to ask this, as you've never actually addressed this: please can you tell me that you understand why blanking a page or copying and pasting it to another place is a bad thing--Jac16888 Talk 17:00, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Except that article space is the wrong place for non-English articles. So no, it wasn't in the proper place. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 16:42, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- You mean the posting which shows that when a non-english article is submitted to the proper place, it is dealt within just a few hours? A perfect example to me of how well the current PNT system works, when of course it it is actually used rather than ignored--Jac16888 Talk 16:32, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose - you lost me at "Further, most of the users on this Wikipedia do not read any other language." That's absurd. Where did you get this information? I don't remember indicating what languages I can read when I created an account. It seems that, because you can't read any other languages, you assume everyone is the same? Otherwise why would you assume this? Further, how often are there articles that are entirely in another language that are not copyright violations or able to be removed for another basic reason? Why is this policy necessary? I looked at the ANI you suggested as cause for the proposal and I agree with Jac16888 - your insistence that you should be able to blank a page because it's in another language is not sound. It's laziness at best, censorship at worse. —МандичкаYO 😜 00:28, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- Actually, what I mean is the language of this Wikipedia is English. I see your name is in Russian (ok, Cryllic , so it might not be Russian as other languages use the Cryllic Alphabet ) assuming you ARE Russian, would it make sense to have an article in ru.wikipedia.org in English rather than in Russian, even though there may be people on that Wikipedia that read English ? Of course not, it's common sense, the lingua franca on that Wikipedia is Russian, just the the lingua franca on this wikipedia is English. Articles should conform to the lingua franca, obviously there may be portions of the article that need to be in a different language (reliable references in other languages, a term in another language that needs to be in. That kind of thing. ). What we should not have in an article of any sort , written completely in another language. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 15:29, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- What irks me more is how we have maps that are written in different languages being used (Examples: Battle maps, road maps, ect...). Yeah the maps are encyclopedic but unless you speak the language there is no way to understand them. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:54, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- A good caption on the map can usually address that problem adequately. There's also a brand-new tool for making charts and maps (links at Wikipedia:Graphs and charts#Vega) that should make it much easier to translate vector-based maps. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:32, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- What irks me more is how we have maps that are written in different languages being used (Examples: Battle maps, road maps, ect...). Yeah the maps are encyclopedic but unless you speak the language there is no way to understand them. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:54, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- Actually, what I mean is the language of this Wikipedia is English. I see your name is in Russian (ok, Cryllic , so it might not be Russian as other languages use the Cryllic Alphabet ) assuming you ARE Russian, would it make sense to have an article in ru.wikipedia.org in English rather than in Russian, even though there may be people on that Wikipedia that read English ? Of course not, it's common sense, the lingua franca on that Wikipedia is Russian, just the the lingua franca on this wikipedia is English. Articles should conform to the lingua franca, obviously there may be portions of the article that need to be in a different language (reliable references in other languages, a term in another language that needs to be in. That kind of thing. ). What we should not have in an article of any sort , written completely in another language. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 15:29, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
English policy: Discussion
- Why is this necessary? We already have Wikipedia:Manual of Style § National varieties of English ("The English Wikipedia prefers no major national variety of the language over any other") and Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English ("This version of Wikipedia is written in English") for example, and it's inherent in the fact that this is the English Wikipedia (there are other language varieties). Is this really a problem? Or a solution looking for a problem? —sroc 💬 11:50, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- I can see that KoshVorlon had an issue (Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard § Behavior of Jac16888) after blanking (three times in three hours) the article Detective Willy which was written in Spanish (it was translated into English within two hours afterwards).
- Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English (WP:PNT) provides a process encouraging translation before hasty deletion, which may be a useful approach. It worked for the above-mentioned article and, if the article survives proposed deletion on notability grounds, it will be a good addition to Wikipedia. PNT isn't a policy or guideline, but if the policy proposed here were adopted, it would need to be completely re-worked. Accordingly, I have flagged this discussion on its talk page (Wikipedia talk:Pages needing translation into English § Proposed policy to move articles in foreign languages to draft space).
- —sroc 💬 12:36, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- I don't see why an article could not both be (1) moved into draftspace and (2) listed at PNT. Wholly non-English articles where it's hard to even determine the subject, are not ready for articlespace, and they shouldn't be immune from our usual deletion criteria (like A7) simply because we can't understand what's going on in those articles. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 12:42, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Jeraphine Gryphon: I don't think Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion § A7. No indication of importance (individuals, animals, organizations, web content, events) necessarily applies just because an article is in a foreign language; however, you're quite right that an article which has no (or barely any) English-language content doesn't belong in article space. Wikipedia:Deletion policy § Alternatives to deletion §§ Incubation can be applied to move them to draft space while they are being re-worked.
- I note that some of the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English § Pages for consideration have some English-language content and some foreign-language content requiring translation, so these would not be ripe for deletion and leaving them in article space may attract users to bring them up to grade. There are some articles, however, that are entirely in a foreign languages and have been listed for some time:
- Shkolla fillore 7 marsi (since 25 April, 23 days ago)
- SMK Permas Jaya (since 29 April, 19 days ago)
- ئهشكهوتى پاڵى گهوره (since 1 May, 17 days ago)
- Les Pétards (since 3 May, 15 days ago)
- That's just the ones that are over the two-week period. This shows that while the system can sometimes work quickly (as in the case of Detective Willy), articles can languish in article space waiting for attention. This being the case, I would support WP:PNT being revised to encourage moving articles to draft space until they are translated, perhaps then allowing a longer period before nominating them for deletion to give them a better chance of being salvaged. I'm not convinced this needs to be enshrined in a separate policy, however. —sroc 💬 13:43, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- I don't see why an article could not both be (1) moved into draftspace and (2) listed at PNT. Wholly non-English articles where it's hard to even determine the subject, are not ready for articlespace, and they shouldn't be immune from our usual deletion criteria (like A7) simply because we can't understand what's going on in those articles. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 12:42, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- This has nothing to do with varieties of English. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 12:30, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Question: Will this be appended to, or be a new part of, the pre-existing WP:ENGLISH? Or will these be merged together? If not, how will this work?... --IJBall (talk) 12:33, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- IJBall I'd suggest making this part of WP:ENGLISH. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 13:03, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Sroc You're right. That's what started this proposal. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 13:03, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- WP:ENGLISH is actually Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), which I see as interpreting Article titles policy, so I don't think it can simply be appended there -- at least not without additional changes. This new rule would apply to the whole article, more like WP:MOS. I see this new rule as based more on the policy Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not or Wikipedia:Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, where the English-language Wikipedia should be defined as written in English. --Boson (talk) 13:40, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- I agree that this should not be part of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). There's a section Wikipedia:Drafts#Incubation which discusses moving articles from mainspace to draft space. Maybe a paragraph about when this is appropriate could be added there, including pages not in English.—Anne Delong (talk) 13:47, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Suggestion: As this is the case, I suggest that the new policy's "shortcut" should become "WP:ENGLISH" if adopted, and the "old" WP:ENGLISH's shortcut should become something line WP:ENGLISHTITLE or some such... --IJBall (talk) 13:53, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- WP:ENGLISH is a bit vague, and WP:ENGLISHTITLE may be better. However, a new policy may not be needed; instructions to move pages awaiting translation to Draft space can be added at Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English#Standard procedures.—Anne Delong (talk) 13:59, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- WP:ENGLISHNAME would also work. --IJBall (talk) 14:02, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Changing the target of shortcuts if often a bad idea, because previous usages of the shortcut will then all point to the wrong target. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 14:33, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- WP:ENGLISHNAME would also work. --IJBall (talk) 14:02, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- WP:ENGLISH is a bit vague, and WP:ENGLISHTITLE may be better. However, a new policy may not be needed; instructions to move pages awaiting translation to Draft space can be added at Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English#Standard procedures.—Anne Delong (talk) 13:59, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- I think changing the description of the process would be better than a "policy" change, but am still wondering about whether any change in normal practice is necessary. In any case, it might be appropriate to change WP:English into something like a disambiguation page pointing to a number of pages that also deal with the use of English (e.g. pages needing translation, diacritics, transliteration etc.).--Boson (talk) 19:27, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Or at least to add a hatnote to ENGLISH that directs people to WP:PNT#Standard procedure. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:42, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- Suggestion: As this is the case, I suggest that the new policy's "shortcut" should become "WP:ENGLISH" if adopted, and the "old" WP:ENGLISH's shortcut should become something line WP:ENGLISHTITLE or some such... --IJBall (talk) 13:53, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- I agree that this should not be part of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). There's a section Wikipedia:Drafts#Incubation which discusses moving articles from mainspace to draft space. Maybe a paragraph about when this is appropriate could be added there, including pages not in English.—Anne Delong (talk) 13:47, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- WP:ENGLISH is actually Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), which I see as interpreting Article titles policy, so I don't think it can simply be appended there -- at least not without additional changes. This new rule would apply to the whole article, more like WP:MOS. I see this new rule as based more on the policy Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not or Wikipedia:Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, where the English-language Wikipedia should be defined as written in English. --Boson (talk) 13:40, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
Alternative proposal for dealing with foreign-language articles
The proposed new policy is unnecessary and would conflict with existing processes, such as Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English (WP:PNT), which would then need to be re-worked. Instead, in order to streamline things and avoid fracturing, I would recommend amending WP:PNT to change the process for dealing with articles entirely (or almost entirely) in foreign languages as follows:
- Move the article into the Draft namespace.
- List the article at Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English § Pages for consideration.
- Articles that are not likely to survive may be proposed for deletion according to the usual deletion policy or speedy deletion criteria to the extent that they apply to drafts (see Wikipedia:Drafts § Deleting a draft).
—sroc 💬 14:03, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- I'd like to take this opportunity to acknowledge KoshVorlon's insight in highlighting this issue and getting the discussion going.
- I would like to add that my proposed process doesn't need to be mandatory: if an article in a foreign language is obviously a copyvio, vandalism, etc., it can be sent straight to speedy deletion as usual without having to be moved to Draft first. This process is intended for articles that could survive if they are translated into English. —sroc 💬 17:08, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support - Not because I disagree with us KoshVorlon's idea, but because we don't need a policy, we need a process. As a new page patroller, I routinely move articles to draft space as an alternative to deletion, or as an alternative to leaving really incomplete content in article space. If either of these proposals passes, someone should follow up with the Twinkle developers to make sure that this multi-step process can be semi-automated.- MrX 14:35, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support I'd be equally happy with this proposal (and hear hear to getting the process Twinklified). Yunshui 雲水 14:39, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support Has the same net effect as the above policy, but is a more efficient implementation. Per MrX I would like to see Twinkle support moving articles to draft space more easily. I would also like to here other editors thoughts on moving other types of very-low quality articles by new editors into draft space without going through AfD to do it. Winner 42 Talk to me! 14:44, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support – OK, this sounds good as well. --IJBall (talk) 15:57, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support It seems clear that KoshVorlon's idea is based on an actual problem (and not an imaginary one) but I am skittish about adding still more rules to Wikipedia's already large collection. This looks like it would dovetail well with the existing structure. Also, "most, if not all read no other language"? Mis seis años de clases de español no están de acuerdo contigo. WP:COMMONSENSE already covers the idea that the English Wikipedia must be in English, and this looks like it would protect Wikipedia from copyright violations without overdoing it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:15, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose As noted above, there are articles entirely in non-English that may qualify as a CSD. If this policy is approved, it means if I find an article in Spanish written by a banned user, I cannot simply delete it as a G5, but I must first move it to Draft space. This is the very definition of silly bureaucracy. On a more general note, what is the reluctance to use the Idea Lab to sort out a sensible approach?--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:05, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- This would not be a policy. It would be a process that you can choose to use, or not. Neither this nor the previous proposal would prevent other deletion processes from being used as needed. You say that this is the definition of a silly bureaucracy, but suggest sending it to the Idea Lab. Irony?- MrX 17:23, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Sphilbrick: Are you saying this to oppose Kosh's proposed policy or my proposed amendment to WP:PNT? Articles could still be deleted without being moved to Draft first, at least with my proposal, so your reasoning doesn't hold. —sroc 💬 17:58, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Given that the original was proposed as a new Policy, and this is labeled as an Alternate proposal, I thought it was intended to be alternative proposal for a policy. I now see it is an alternate proposal for a rewording of a process, so it doesn't contain the same weight as a policy. Still, my objection remains. The proposal step one says Move the article into the Draft namespace. I disagree. I'd start with Determine whether it qualifies as a CSD as is.If not, or indeterminate, move into the Draft namespace But this is OTTOMH and could use word smithing. Re "irony" I think it is misplaced. I am a big fan of bureaucracy, when sensible. We ought to have well-thought out rules for handling solutions, and well-thought out processes for dealing with issues. What I oppose is mindless bureaucracy, such as moving an article to Draft space, then deleting it when it is perfectly obvious it should be deleted as is. The entire concept of the Idea Lab is that it is difficult, if not impossible, to write up new Policies, and there ought to be a place to work on them, and get them ready for an up or down vote. Both the original and the alternate proposals qualify. Neither were ready for prime time. Both has some good ideas that I could support if the issues were addressed. The Idea Lab is intended as a place to address them. I get why people want to come here first, because they think their idea is so good it can be supported exactly as worded, or maybe with a tiny word change, but they miss that it often takes a robust discussion of issues to come up with good wording for a new proposal. This is more true today than it was in the early days of WP, when there was so low-hanging fruit, and it might have been reasonable to slap together a policy and approve it.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:09, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Sroc: I oppose the policy proposed by Kosh as written, for the reasons I outlined (and there are more objections, I just didn't think it was necessary to be exhaustive.) I oppose the alternative wording of WP:PMT. The existing process has a set of steps for entire articles. Your proposed step 1, which presumably replaces the existing step 1, says Move the article into the Draft namespace. Maybe you think it is implicit that you can delete via CSD before this step, but that's not what it says.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:16, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Sphilbrick: Nothing in my proposal seeks to usurp current deletion policy, and I've expressly said in my further comment that articles could still be deleted as usual without having to move them to Draft namespace first. I haven't set out the exact wording as I was just seeking ro assess general support—the exact implementation might be put to an RfC if necessary—but I was especially hoping to point out that although Kosh's intentions were good, that doesn't mean we have to leap to the first proposal (i.e., a new policy) and alternatives should be considered. —sroc 💬 19:08, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Sphilbrick: Are you saying this to oppose Kosh's proposed policy or my proposed amendment to WP:PNT? Articles could still be deleted without being moved to Draft first, at least with my proposal, so your reasoning doesn't hold. —sroc 💬 17:58, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose also per WP:CREEP. We don't need a new policy, or a new process. And I do not like setting a precedent that anyone can just move an article into draft space on a whim, that will put us on a slippery slope. The correwct way to currently deal with such issues is to put the great big {{translate}} tag on the article, list it at pages needing translation, and add one the appropriate tag from WP:PNT/T to the creating user's talk page. I don't see how temporarily hiding it in the draft namespace on top of all that is any better. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:12, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- I don't disagree with @Beeblebrox: on many things, so I'm probably wrong here, but I wouldn't mind if we were more aggressive in moving articles into draft space. However, I'd prefer to do it as part of a comprehensive overhaul of the review process, in which articles which aren't quite ready for prime time were moved to Draft space, and I see articles written in a foreign language (which are otherwise not eligible for CSD) as an important special case. However, I worry that Draft may become a wasteland, so I wouldn't support it unless we had some good processes for clearing it out. I'm struggling with this because my position is closer to Kosh's and Sroc's than my opposes may suggest. I, too, have run across articles in main space, written entirely in another language, and thought that moving them into the Draft space might be a good next step. But while I can think of such examples, getting from a couple examples to a policy or even a process is trickier than some seem to realize.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:25, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Beeblebrox: My counter-proposal is not really a "new process" but refining an existing one. In fact, moving an article to Draft namespace may save potential articles that just need to be translated that might otherwise be hastily deleted just because the current (arbitrary) two-week time limit has passed. —sroc 💬 19:12, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- I now see the language in wp:PNT I had missed earlier Articles that are not in English are still subject to all other forms of speedy deletion should they meet the criteria. That mitigates my concern, but emphasizes the need to improve that page. When I see a process page with a list of steps, it seems reasonable that I should start with step 1.
- In fact, one is expected to carry out some unnumbered steps first, which I will number, with the smartaleck convention of keeping the existing numbering intact:
- Step -2: If someone speaks the language the article is written in and can state that it is not worth translating, the item should be moved to AfD or tagged with {{prod}}
- Step -1: If the article is a mere copy of (all or part of) an article in a foreign-language Wikipedia, it can just be tagged with {{db-foreign}} to get added to Wikipedia:Candidates for speedy deletion
- Step 0: Check to see if other CSD criteria apply
- Step 1 (existing): Use the notice {{notenglish|NameOfLanguage}} ...
- Step 1 (proposed by you):Move the article into the Draft namespace.
- Did you ever read the book Onion John? (I loved it, my daughter hated it), John was a barn door hinge for the door on his house, because the wood is so rotten, standard house hinges won't hold. The town decides that they shouldn't just do the minor fix, they should replace the whole house. It goes badly. Which is unfortunate for me, because I'm looking at your proposed replacement of step 1 with a different step, and I'm noticing that the house is falling down, and think we ought to fix the house, while the lesson in the story is that this approach ends badly. So I don't know what to do, but I am still unhappy about tinkering with a process and ignoring the glaring problems.--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:35, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Sphilbrick: I haven't read that book, but I see your point. I agree WP:PNT could use some work and can probably be simpler to follow. I would support a re-working of WP:PNT to solve the underlying issues and incorporate the use of Draft namespace (at whatever stage); I think that would be more productive than a new policy (which would only make WP:PNT harder to follow).
- The comments here suggest an emerging consensus that: (1) something needs to be done to prompt utilising the Draft namespace for articles in languages other than English that need attention before being re-admitted to article namespace; (2) a new policy is not necessary or desirable to achieve this; (3) WP:PNT should be re-worked to address this (amongst fixing the barn generally). Perhaps this should be workshopped on the Wikipedia talk:Pages needing translation into English talk page? —sroc 💬 21:27, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose per Beeblebrox and SPhilbrick. GregJackP Boomer! 19:19, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- I feel I need to make another clarification here in regards to this counter-proposal, it will read a bit odd at first, but bear with me. WP:PNT is not a translation project (keep going): it is an article crisis-centre, along the lines of Wikipedia:Copyright problems, Wikipedia:WikiProject Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard and more. Just like those pages we focus on a specific issue and we fix it however we can. There is a long-held consensus, re-affirmed just a few weeks ago, at PNT that draft articles do not fall within our scope of work, as they do not fall under many other "problem article" pages, to change that would be to swamp us with hundreds of pages that are simply not a problem for Wikipedia. Wikipedia:Translation is the translation project, it is there that editors specifically looking at translating articles (properly I mean, not just dropping non-English articles into the articlespace) --Jac16888 Talk 21:40, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Jac16888: Thanks for the insight. Do you think this would work better if articles that have not received attention after the two-week period, and which otherwise do not obviously meet any deletion criteria, be moved to the Draft namespace then? Thus, all articles in foreign languages: (1) would be marked with a maintenance tag and listed at WP:PNT, as they are now; (2) after two weeks, would then moved to Draft namespace where someone could recover it in due course if they felt inclined; (3) could be deleted at any time just as with any article or draft subject to the deletion criteria. —sroc 💬 22:35, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support I dont see the earlier proposal as clashing with this one, but oh well.Bosstopher (talk) 20:15, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose - first, there is already a process that works fine. If the good people who patrol WP:PNT felt there needed to be a new policy and their current routine wasn't working, I would defer to them. Instead this seems to me to be about an editor who randomly came across a page in Spanish and doesn't like that his decision to blank it kept getting reverted. Secondly, moving them to userspace decreases the likelihood that an editor who doesn't patrol WP:PNT will come across the article and help translate it. I strongly feel tagging the article with "please translate me if you can" is the best approach. —МандичкаYO 😜 00:38, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
RfC: Should the holder of a political office be linked within an infobox more than once (i.e. as the successor), when they have already been linked (e.g. as the vice president, predecessor, lieutenant, etc.)?
Opening rationale and instructions
some possible Reasons to Support-
- Ease of navigation
- WP:OVERLINK (certain parts)
- Conformity with articles where this issue does not occur
- WP:IAR, occasional exceptions to rules
some possible Reasons to Oppose-
- WP:OVERLINK (spirit of the guideline) and that this issue is already covered there
- It looks less professional and more cluttered
- Harder on the eyes to follow with continual alternating colors
- Multiple links in an infobox are simply unnecessary
Having recently closed an RfC discussion at an article regarding this a similar issue, I will not be expressing an opinion here (in the spirit of neutrality). I'm simply advocating consistency, in the hope to unify the style that should be used when this occurs throughout the encyclopedia. —Godsy(TALKCONT) 05:23, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
Support (names should be linked more than once)
- Strong support - any place where readers are likely to expect links, we should give them those links. While in prose text there are issues with some browsers (so I ubderstand, when it comes to browsers for the blind), these issues don't come up as much in infoboxes. And if someone wants to follow up, for example, on all Israeli prime ministers since 1990, they would expect a link to the next prime minister for the 1992-1995 term of Yitzhak Rabin. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:06, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support - WP:OVERLINK does exist for a reason, and it is best that we apply it where practical; however, we need to actually apply common sense before going to endless lengths to ensure that every last policy or guideline is met. Dustin (talk) 11:35, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support - WP:OVERLINK says "Generally, a link should appear only once in an article, but if helpful for readers, a link may be repeated in infoboxes". That seems pretty explicit, so why is IAR listed under "some possible Reasons to Support"? There's no IAR necessary. Unlike an article, which has a top-to-bottom flow/narrative, infoboxes and tables are things people scan for particular information -- and we should have that information linked. To be clear, though, I don't think this requires additional language be added to any of the guidelines unless consensus opposes. If supported it's just a reaffirmation of what WP:OVERLINK already says. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 14:53, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support I try to use common sense as well. While I hate overlinking (everyone knows what an rabbit is) I frequently relink when a lot of names are being used or when information is lenghty and/or difficult to understand, as in a medical article. I try to put myself in the place of a person that has no previous knowledge of the subject. Gandydancer (talk) 15:13, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- This is a good point. Often in wiki table usage we relink things because to re-find the first linked instance isn't always easy when you want to click on it for more info. In prose it disrupts flow of reading. In an infobox some readers expect all names to be linked because they specifically use it to navigate. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:43, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support. I think it's useful there. I've used those links to navigate, and I know others have, too. And, as noted above, there's a clear exception in the overlink policy that supports useful links in infoboxes.--Coemgenus (talk) 15:58, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support. WP:OVERLINK explicitly says links can be repeated in infoboxes. It benefits readers to have the links repeated there and it does not clutter the page like overlinking in the prose does. Calidum T|C 16:05, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support The whole purpose of the infobox is to present material in a succinct manner. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:03, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support Of course it's helpful to repeat links, and we should do it. Not everybody reads articles top to bottom. Some just look at the infobox, some only read the text without the infobox, many only read a particular section (and we have links to sections all over the place), in some cases users might skip to the navboxes at the bottom. We should be accommodating all of these reading styles, and that means repeating links, sometimes 5 to 10 times in an article. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 22:13, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support As a matter of common sense, it makes navigating Wikipedia easier for readers. WP:OVERLINK is a policy designed to prevent linking to the same article multiple times within the body, which makes sense because if someone is reading through the page, they've already seen the available wikilink. However, when navigating through successive offices (or for that matter NFL seasons, NBA seasons, Artist singles, etc.) using the infobox, it is best to have everything linked for convenience. Yes, this means sometimes people who hold multiple offices will be linked more than once, but for the sake of sanity we should just link them all, if we have to go through each article and determine which ones to do de-link it will be a headache for editors and readers alike, and only serve to cause confusion. We have a hard enough time enforcing WP:OVERLINK within the bodies of articles, let's not give ourselves extra work for no good reason. -War wizard90 (talk) 23:32, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support per all the sound reasons listed above —МандичкаYO 😜 00:40, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support because it allows much more easy navigation and helps spread knowledge by making it easier to access. StudiesWorld (talk) 21:32, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support—it helps with navigation, and WP:OVERLINK specifically says it can be repeated. Imzadi 1979 → 04:34, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Oppose (names should not be linked more than once)
- Oppose - WP:REPEATLINK says
if helpful for readers, a link may be repeated in infoboxes
. We have to ask "is it helpful" to repeat this link and generally the answer is no. An infobox is supposed to summarisekey features of the page's subject
. It is effectively the same as a single, listified section and we don't link multiple times in a section so why would we link multiple times in the infobox? It's unnecessary. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:55, 21 May 2015 (UTC) - Oppose as unnecessary repetition. As AussieLegend said, it doesn't really benefit to repeat links. Snuggums (talk / edits) 14:39, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- WP:OVERLINK oppose. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:07, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- Does that mean you support rewording the part of WP:OVERLINK that says, "... but if helpful for readers, a link may be repeated in infoboxes, tables, image captions, footnotes, hatnotes, and at the first occurrence after the lead." because unless that wording is changed, then I don't see how WP:OVERLINK can be used to oppose this RfC. -War wizard90 (talk) 05:20, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
Neutral
Discussion
Comment - This is not exactly the same topic that was closed recently at Talk:FDR. That was specifically about the President of the United States and the problems it creates (especially for children) when the "Preceded by" and "Succeeded by" are not linked. Every other President of the United States was linked for easy access EXCEPT for Franklin Roosevelt. Truman was the third vice-President so it was not instantly apparent where to click for Truman. And when a youngster is doing a report we want them to have easy access to information, especially for the highest office in the United States. Being able to click from infobox to infobox was very helpful. Of course the result was a snowball to make it consistent with all other US Presidents and because of the importance of the office.
Now whether that should hold true for every other political office/elected official (that would include elected judges/mayors/councilpersons/school board members/etc) I do have my doubts. We've established it for US Presidents, but I'd like to read some viewpoints here on whether that should also apply to every political office. Maybe overlinking shouldn't apply to infoboxes since they are a helpful summary of the most important items of an article? Then again, unless it's as important as potus, why do we really need it linked over and over? Food for thought and I'll be reading some posts before deciding whether to expand things or not. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:13, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- I didn't mean to imply that it was the same issue in my opening statement, merely that it was related. I changed my wording there to be more clear. —Godsy(TALKCONT) 07:18, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
Why is this specific to political offices? There are plethora other templates that link to names. For example, where a TV show uses {{infobox television}}, it is common that the same person may be listed in multiple roles (e.g., in Louie, Louie CK is listed as the creator, writer, director, and star) but only linked in the infobox the first time. Whether it is convenient to do this may depend on how the infobox is built (e.g., whether links are inserted automatically and not easily overridden) and how they appear (e.g., whether the references to the same person appear close together), but what is the reason to treat political offices as a special case and could/should this have a broader application. —sroc 💬 14:36, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- There is succession in political offices. For example a user may want to browse through all the governors of New York in order, from the 1st to the 56th. It could be argued that it would be convenient to have all the successors linked, even if they happened to serve as the previous administration's lieutenant governor for ease of navigation. The same cannot be said about the benefit of linking other non-ordered things, such as in your example. That's why I specified the proposal in the way that I did. —Godsy(TALKCONT) 15:19, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
@AussieLegend:We often link multiple times in long tables, and the infobox is closer to a table of information than reading actual prose. We know that overlinking in prose is a distraction to the flow of reading. That's why we don't overlink in prose. My question is, if many readers are finding it helpful to use the infoboxes as navigation tools, what does it hurt to link everything? It's usually done in row after row formatting so it really shouldn't cause added eyestrain. Other than it breaks some rule, how does it really hurt those who say we shouldn't do it? Does it really make it harder for people to view the infoboxes if everything is linked? I'm trying to get a grip on why this rule interpretation came into being. Maybe the overlink writers weren't really thinking about infoboxes when it was initially written. I'm not sure. And since if everything is linked in an infobox I don't think it would bother me at all, I'd like to hear some views as to why it causes problems. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:07, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- The content in an infobox is a range of essentially disjointed information, whereas in a table the content has a common theme. As such, it is closer to this than this, so the table analogy is incorrect. --AussieLegend (✉) 03:23, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- For the record, there's been someone, using various IP addresses, going through political candidates and removing the extra links, even though this discussion is ongoing. I don't have a horse in this race, but someone should maybe speak to them and invite them to the discussion. Either they don't know about it (AGF) or they do, and are ignoring the trends here. Lets hope its the first. --Jayron32 16:37, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
RfC re:Anthroponymy page guidelines
There is an active RfC on moving Wikipedia:WikiProject_Anthroponymy/Standards into the MOS, at either Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Anthroponymy pages or Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Anthroponymy. Please contribute. Thanks! —Swpbtalk 20:13, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
RfC: Establish MoS as the official page for style questions
There is now a proposal at the Village Pump that WT:MoS be established as Wikipedia's official page for style Q&A (rather than create a dedicated style noticeboard). This would involve actively guiding editors with style questions to WT:MoS and away from other pages. Participation is welcome. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:16, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
Animated GIFs in infoboxes
The new Shri Ram Institute of Technology has had an animated GIF put in its infobox, where one would normally expect a logo or similar. Is this allowed? I find it rather distracting. (see GIF at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shri_Ram_Group.gif) 220 of Borg 13:51, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- Wikipedia has no rules against the use of animated GIFs, AFAIK. There are some that have been featured picture of the day, even. That being said, merely because something is allowed, doesn't mean it is a good idea; editorial discretion and article quality are more important than rules, and if the image detracts from the article quality 1) feel free to remove it and 2) if someone objects and puts it back, don't edit war but instead have a discussion and come to a consensus. --Jayron32 16:36, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- Kill it. Kill it with fire. If we don't have a rule against animated GIFs in infoboxes we should make one. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:14, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Although rare, gifs are useful in some articles. For example, in our chess articles, where certain positions or a sequence of moves must be presented to describe the topic. See Scholar's Mate for an example; it doesn't have an infobox, but if it did, I can't imagine any image being appropriate there except a gif of that particular sequence. The OP's example is obviously a very different case, and that gif should probably be removed. — Jess· Δ♥ 06:50, 23 May 2015 (UTC)