→Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia: Discussing interlanguage/interwiki issues. |
|||
Line 527: | Line 527: | ||
==[[Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia]]== |
==[[Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia]]== |
||
Wikipedia currently has the process pages for [[Help:Merge]] and [[WP:Split]], but no clear guideline in place to ensure that contributors understand the attribution requirements for reusing text within Wikipedia. It is brushed on at [[WP:C]], but not clear, and I believe that expanding its coverage there would muddy the waters of that policy's primary purpose. I would like to propose this new guideline to govern [[Help:Merge]] and [[WP:Split]] and to which contributors may easily be pointed when they inadvertently violate copyright by failing to attribute (and this happens all the time). Feedback and assistance at that talk page in reaching consensus would be very much appreciated. --[[User:Moonriddengirl|Moonriddengirl]] <sup>[[User talk:Moonriddengirl|(talk)]]</sup> 15:09, 23 October 2009 (UTC) |
Wikipedia currently has the process pages for [[Help:Merge]] and [[WP:Split]], but no clear guideline in place to ensure that contributors understand the attribution requirements for reusing text within Wikipedia. It is brushed on at [[WP:C]], but not clear, and I believe that expanding its coverage there would muddy the waters of that policy's primary purpose. I would like to propose this new guideline to govern [[Help:Merge]] and [[WP:Split]] and to which contributors may easily be pointed when they inadvertently violate copyright by failing to attribute (and this happens all the time). Feedback and assistance at that talk page in reaching consensus would be very much appreciated. --[[User:Moonriddengirl|Moonriddengirl]] <sup>[[User talk:Moonriddengirl|(talk)]]</sup> 15:09, 23 October 2009 (UTC) |
||
:It might be nice to also discuss requirements for interlanguage/interwiki copies from other Wikimedia sites. (For example, best practices for attributing translated text from another Wikipedia.) <font style="font-family:Constantia" size="3" color="#0077bb">[[User:TheFeds|'''''TheFeds''''']]</font> 19:23, 23 October 2009 (UTC) |
|||
== book's table of contents useable or CV? == |
== book's table of contents useable or CV? == |
Revision as of 19:23, 23 October 2009
Policy | Technical | Proposals | Idea lab | WMF | Miscellaneous |
- Table of contents
- First discussion
- End of page
- New post
If you want to propose something new that is not a policy or guideline, use the proposals section.
Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequent proposals and the responses to them.
Should trademarked sports logos be used as icons in university infoboxes?
I want to start this off by making it very, very, very clear that this issue isn't about our non-free content guidelines. Recent conversations on this point have been blurring this distinction and muddling the picture. The non-free content guidelines here are largely irrelevant. With that out of the way...
Starting much earlier this year, but especially in the last month, I've been removing sport logo icons from the infoboxes of university articles, doing so per the last paragraph of WP:MOSLOGO which states "Use of company logos, sports team crests and other copyright protected or trademarked images in articles can usually only be done on a fair use basis (generally as an illustration of the primary subject - eg the IBM logo on the IBM article). Use of such images as icons is nearly always prohibited (see Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline and Wikipedia:Logos)." It is my belief that this guideline is pretty unequivocal with regards to the use of trademark images. Note that the guideline says "or" not "and" for the 12th word. This is an important distinction.
The concern regarding the use of trademark icons first entered into the WP:MOSLOGO guideline in September of 2008 [1]. It's been evolving since. A version from May of this year [2] shows the intent. This was later reworded to what we have now.
I feel the use of trademark sports logo icons in university infoboxes is inappropriate because:
- Most importantly, the sports logo of a university represents one department of a university. A sports department, if successful, frequently receives media attention. The same applies to other successful departments of universities. When you think of Harvard, most non-Harvard people immediately think of their law school, which is usually ranked either 1st or 2nd in the U.S. The law school has a different crest/logo than the university itself. Since Harvard is so notable for its law school, should we therefore include the law school crest in the infobox as well? Instead, we include only the university's mascot logo. That doesn't make sense.
- We should be including the main crest/seal/logo of a university in its infobox only, as that mark represents the entire university, not just one part of it.
- If we are to include the university's sports logo, we should be including every departmental logo. There's no valid reason to treat these other departments as less than a sports department.
- Reduction of a logo can be lossy. In many of these iconization attempts, the reduction is greater than 75% of the original pixel coverage of the image as used elsewhere on the project.
- It conveys an inaccurate meaning; the university isn't just its sports department any more than Coca-Cola is only Sprite.
- It clutters the infobox.
In particular, this RfC asks:
- Should icons of trademarks be permitted in infoboxes or should they only be displayed in their full size? (not to be confused with standards on the use of non-trademark flag icons and note definition of icon from the guideline: "For the purposes of this guideline, icons are any small images, including logos, crests, coats of arms, seals and flags.")
- Should trademarks of a subsidiary organization of a parent organization be displayed in the infobox of a parent organization's article? I.e., should the Sprite logo appear in the infobox on Coca-Cola, or the Marlboro logo appear on the Altria article, or sports logos of university teams appear in the infoboxes of university articles.
Your input welcome. Thanks, --Hammersoft (talk) 15:02, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- When you say trademarked sports logos, do you mean non-free images that also have a trademark or all images with a trademark. In your example, the IBM logo is a free image, so I don't see why it would matter if included in the infobox. MBisanz talk 15:12, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- See the first paragraph of this section. This is irrespective of whether it is fair use or not. Trademarks do exist in full size on many articles. For example, Chevrolet though that example is fair use. The question is, should the Chevrolet trademark appear on the General Motors article as an icon in its infobox? --Hammersoft (talk) 15:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- I think it's possible we could discuss the validity of the style of iconization of trademarks in infoboxes in the context of non-free images. I'm just concerned it would fracture the discussion. Where that discussion, if it happened, could go is; since we wouldn't permit a fair use icon in an infobox for failing WP:NFCC #8, yet allow free logos as icons, we create a style dichotomy. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:24, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- Hmm, ok, I would support including sports logos on the theory that many colleges have two primary brands that they promote, the school brand and the athletic brand (of the three major institutions I attended, two operated in this manner and the third didn't have a major sports program). And with the Harvard example, including the sports team in the Harvard article seems like a good idea for presentation purposes since it would be consistent with my general experience at most universities and I can live with the style dichotomy in light of WP's free mission and the asthetical benefit provided by including free logos where possible. MBisanz talk 15:27, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- So we should include trademark logos as icons even if it incurs lossiness? I'd rather see the full size logo used. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:31, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- And, to keep this focused on the abstract concept, should we also include trademark logos on parent organization articles such as Altria, General Motors and Procter & Gamble? If not, then why are universities a special case exemption from this? Parent organizations spend huge sums of money marketing their brands, and frequently very little on the parent brand. They're more notable and recognizable for their brands than for their parent organization. Ask 50 people what Altria is, they'll look at you cross-eyed. Ask 50 people what Marlboro is, and most will say a cigarette company. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:33, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- I think when an organization has a primary and secondary identifier that are recognized by the company and associated with it as such, then it would be appropriate to include both, so for GM I don' think we should include all four brands, but for Chrysler we would want to include both the pentastar and ribbon. Same for Altria where we probably want to include the Phillip Morris crest, but for P&G we wouldn't need to include ever brand logo. MBisanz talk 15:36, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- That creates a pretty fuzzy line. So for some organizations we include subsidiary organization icons in the infobox, but not for others? On what clear criteria? --Hammersoft (talk) 16:06, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- I wouldn't have any problem with an article on Altria or GM that had a "brands" section with logos of their major brands. It's definitely within our fair-use guidelines and it adds encyclopedic value, and would be necessary if we're going to allow merged articles. I smell a holy war comng on... Squidfryerchef (talk) 16:24, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- I think a university logo belongs in a university infobox, and a sports logo belongs in a sports infobox. If the university's athletics are notable enough to warrant their own article, that's an easy decision. If the university's athletics are not notable enough for their own article, then there should be an athletics section with its own infobox. Squidfryerchef (talk) 16:18, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- My take on the matter: The current wording of WP:MOSLOGO is inaccurate, as it implies that all logos are copyrighted (or that "trademarked" comes with the exact same NFCC restrictions). As with so much of the MOS, I'm sure this was done as part of someone's effort to give themselves a bigger hammer to justify removing the things. WP:MOSLOGO should be reverted to either of the mentioned versions (September 2008 or May 2009), or rewritten to the same effect. I have no opinion on the question of whether the logos should be used in the particular context under discussion here. Anomie⚔ 16:37, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- I would say most emphatically not! This is not fair use, since the articles in question are about the universities, not the sports operations. I know it is popular to deride certain institutions as sports franchises with glorified high schools attached for legal purposes, but such partisanship aside, the sports team is not the purpose of the school or the article. Such use may be arguably fair use on the separate article (if any) about the sports operation; but not on the school's main page. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:57, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- However, logos used for athletics are often used to represent the entire university in academic contexts and other non-athletic contexts. This is true many institutions including at Texas A&M, Michigan, Miami, etc. They are valuable marketing identities for their respective institutions, and often, the icon most immediately recognizable to the general public. Therefore, IMHO, their use in the university infoboxes not only useful, but important. Whether it right for a school to do so is not the debate, but the fact is that the culture and identity of many institutions are inexplicably intertwined with their athletics. This does not, by default, make them jock factories. An example on the other end of the spectrum would be Cal-Berkley. In my experience there are some individuals, living outside of Western United States, who believe that "Cal" and "Berkley" are different institutions. Having the script "Cal" logo (a tm PD-text logo) in the infobox actually aids the reader in identifying the institution, and IMO, makes the article better. There seems to be no policy, fair-use or not, against inclusion of both, specifically in the section of the university infobox dealing with athletics. CrazyPaco (talk) 00:00, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, we're not talking about fair use images (though there are fair use images involved in this). We're talking about the use of trademarked icons of organizations in the infobox of their parent organizations. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:43, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- Comment What is missing is a clear policy about the use of trademarked logos in general, which I suppose is more than the scope of this RFC question. We have lots of policy about copyrighted images, but are lacking when it comes to trademarks. Frankly, Wikipedia:Logos#Trademark concerns doesn't offer clear, tangible guidelines for editors. It says U.S. law protects the right of non-owners to use trademarks for purposes of criticism and commentary, but that says nothing about decorative and/or identification usage? The opinion of some editors seems to be "hey, that's not Wikipedia's problem" (perhaps because they feel the Wikipedia:General disclaimer#Trademarks gives them an "out") but shouldn't we be striving to make this encyclopedia's content as freely usable as possible? We also have many images tagged with {{PD-textlogo}} because they are deemed to be not copyrightable because they fail the threshold of originality, but those decisions are made by non-experts in this area of law. We have great inconsistency for how these images are used; restraint is evident for File:Sony logo.svg, which only appears on one mainspace article (and not in every article in Category:Sony and its subcategories!) but we seem to allow widespread usage for university team logos, some television shows, etc. I would prefer to see a stronger policy about the use of trademarked images. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- I concur with your general assessment. I'd be happy to contribute to a discussion on the use of trademark policy development. But, in the absence of that policy, what is your stance vis-a-vis the use of trademark icons (not full size logos) of organizations in the infobox of their parent organizations? --Hammersoft (talk) 19:43, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- I disagree with the general assessment here. The Sony logo isn't used by choice, not because of restraint. No one wants to use it for every Sony product with an article on Wikipedia. "...those decisions are made by non-experts in this area of law." is a misleading statement as almost every decision on Wikipedia is made by non-experts in the law; that doesn't mean we just stop doing everything or making decisions on what to use/not use. My opinion is not exclusively based upon the general disclaimers of Wikipedia, but on copyright laws, legal outcomes, precedent, and our policies and guidelines. While we have inconsistency in how these PD images are used, that doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong or that they even need to be standardized. Individual projects can decide how best to use them as long as they abide by our policies and the law. Can we provide better guidance? Sure. So let's work on that guidance. — BQZip01 — talk 23:20, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'd also like to throw in Wikipedia:Trademarks#The_use_of_graphic_logos which states that a logo like Sony's mentioned above can be used once in each infobox. — BQZip01 — talk 04:38, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
- No, it does not say this. A product logo is fine in an info box, but not the reuse of the company's logo in each of its products' infoboxes is not allowed by that. --MASEM (t) 04:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
- "Product logos and corporate logos...whether copyrighted or not, may be used once in the infobox or corner of articles about the related product, service, company, or entity." Don't see how that can't be more clear. — BQZip01 — talk 12:53, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
- The word "once" says exactly how many times a logo gets a free uncontested use on WP. That's not to say that a logo can't be reused elsewhere if it represented multiple entities, but it does say that it cannot be used for pages that are even one-step removed from that entity. --MASEM (t) 13:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
- It mentions nothing about "uncontested use" or "it cannot be used for pages that are even one-step removed from that entity." Where am I missing this? — BQZip01 — talk 20:09, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
- "may be used once" (with the rest of the language implies we use a given logo as little as possible, one time being appropriate and undisputed. This also goes along with WP:NFCC#3a about minimal use of non-free works, and as I point out below, the difficulties of systematic bias when you have free vs non-free logos for equivalent institutions. --MASEM (t) 13:27, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, but it states it "...may be used once in the infobox or corner of articles..." I read that as it may be used in more than one article, but only once within each article. I think the plural status of this noun is important to note. How do you interpret that? — BQZip01 — talk 16:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- The full sentence (as out of context can lead to the trouble) is Product logos and corporate logos, such as the stylized rendition of the word Dell used by Dell, Inc., whether copyrighted or not, may be used once in the infobox or corner of articles about the related product, service, company, or entity. We have multiple logos and we are talking about multiple articles, so it's not the case necessarily of a single logo on multiple articles. Of course, we're not a beuararcy and shouldn't be reading to the exacting letter but consider how the policy is applied through WP, and clearly the case is to limit the use of a logo image to the single entity it is representing, or if it represents multiple entities, there too, but not on related entities. --MASEM (t) 23:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- To ignore the wording and go by something else ignores the wording of the guideline in question. I believe you are making this your personal interpretation of policy because nowhere in our policies or guidelines does it state "...the case is to limit the use of a logo image to the single entity it is representing, or if it represents multiple entities, there too, but not on related entities.". Again, I believe your motives to be sincere and pure, but I think you are projecting your interpretation into this and ignoring the wording that was chosen. — BQZip01 — talk 16:43, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
- The full sentence (as out of context can lead to the trouble) is Product logos and corporate logos, such as the stylized rendition of the word Dell used by Dell, Inc., whether copyrighted or not, may be used once in the infobox or corner of articles about the related product, service, company, or entity. We have multiple logos and we are talking about multiple articles, so it's not the case necessarily of a single logo on multiple articles. Of course, we're not a beuararcy and shouldn't be reading to the exacting letter but consider how the policy is applied through WP, and clearly the case is to limit the use of a logo image to the single entity it is representing, or if it represents multiple entities, there too, but not on related entities. --MASEM (t) 23:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, but it states it "...may be used once in the infobox or corner of articles..." I read that as it may be used in more than one article, but only once within each article. I think the plural status of this noun is important to note. How do you interpret that? — BQZip01 — talk 16:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- "may be used once" (with the rest of the language implies we use a given logo as little as possible, one time being appropriate and undisputed. This also goes along with WP:NFCC#3a about minimal use of non-free works, and as I point out below, the difficulties of systematic bias when you have free vs non-free logos for equivalent institutions. --MASEM (t) 13:27, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- It mentions nothing about "uncontested use" or "it cannot be used for pages that are even one-step removed from that entity." Where am I missing this? — BQZip01 — talk 20:09, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
- The word "once" says exactly how many times a logo gets a free uncontested use on WP. That's not to say that a logo can't be reused elsewhere if it represented multiple entities, but it does say that it cannot be used for pages that are even one-step removed from that entity. --MASEM (t) 13:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
- "Product logos and corporate logos...whether copyrighted or not, may be used once in the infobox or corner of articles about the related product, service, company, or entity." Don't see how that can't be more clear. — BQZip01 — talk 12:53, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
- No, it does not say this. A product logo is fine in an info box, but not the reuse of the company's logo in each of its products' infoboxes is not allowed by that. --MASEM (t) 04:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'd also like to throw in Wikipedia:Trademarks#The_use_of_graphic_logos which states that a logo like Sony's mentioned above can be used once in each infobox. — BQZip01 — talk 04:38, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
- I disagree with the general assessment here. The Sony logo isn't used by choice, not because of restraint. No one wants to use it for every Sony product with an article on Wikipedia. "...those decisions are made by non-experts in this area of law." is a misleading statement as almost every decision on Wikipedia is made by non-experts in the law; that doesn't mean we just stop doing everything or making decisions on what to use/not use. My opinion is not exclusively based upon the general disclaimers of Wikipedia, but on copyright laws, legal outcomes, precedent, and our policies and guidelines. While we have inconsistency in how these PD images are used, that doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong or that they even need to be standardized. Individual projects can decide how best to use them as long as they abide by our policies and the law. Can we provide better guidance? Sure. So let's work on that guidance. — BQZip01 — talk 23:20, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- Ok, sure. I think that any logo (regardless of trademark and/or copyright status) should certainly be shown on the single article for which it is most appropriate. That means that for a university, I would think the university seal belongs on the top level article (only!) for that university, and the sports team logo belongs (only!) on the top-level article for the sports team. For example, File:PittPanthers.png ought to appear only on the Pittsburgh Panthers article, and File:UofPittsburgh Seal.svg should only be on the University of Pittsburgh article. I think the trademarked sports logo should not be used as a substitute for the copyrighted seal just to get around WP:NFCC so that we have some image on all Pitt articles. Similarly, I think the current usage of the Sony logo is the most appropriate. I fully support the fair-use of copyrighted logos for identification purposes on the single article that the logo is associated with. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:01, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- I would not assume that these are necessarily "sub-level" articles? Would they not have their own notability to exist on their own to begin with? Sports teams and universities share the same logos, that doesn't necessarily make Notre Dame Fighting Irish football more of a sub article of Notre Dame University than it makes the New England Patriots a sub-article of the National Football League. Because Notre Dame Football, and Basketball, and Ice Hockey and the University share the same PD-textlogo, doesn't mean it reduces the utility in that logo representing those entities in their own stand alone articles. It also doesn't mean universities don't use multiple logos to represent themselves, which is already understood and accommodated by the presence of multiple image fields in the University Infobox.CrazyPaco (talk) 00:00, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
- Each article in Wikipedia is supposed to be a standalone article. The logos may be associated with more than one article, not just a main article. — BQZip01 — talk 04:14, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
- I would not assume that these are necessarily "sub-level" articles? Would they not have their own notability to exist on their own to begin with? Sports teams and universities share the same logos, that doesn't necessarily make Notre Dame Fighting Irish football more of a sub article of Notre Dame University than it makes the New England Patriots a sub-article of the National Football League. Because Notre Dame Football, and Basketball, and Ice Hockey and the University share the same PD-textlogo, doesn't mean it reduces the utility in that logo representing those entities in their own stand alone articles. It also doesn't mean universities don't use multiple logos to represent themselves, which is already understood and accommodated by the presence of multiple image fields in the University Infobox.CrazyPaco (talk) 00:00, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
- I concur with your general assessment. I'd be happy to contribute to a discussion on the use of trademark policy development. But, in the absence of that policy, what is your stance vis-a-vis the use of trademark icons (not full size logos) of organizations in the infobox of their parent organizations? --Hammersoft (talk) 19:43, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Note: I anticipated having a hard time keeping this discussion focused on the two questions outlined above. I just didn't anticipate it would fork in the way it did :) I've refactored some comments in an attempt to keep elements of the discussion focused in appropriate places. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:50, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- Comment regarding the first point "Most importantly, the sports logo of a university represents one department of a university...". This is simply not always the case. "Popular" or "athletic" logos are often used to represent the university and its community as a whole. This would be exemplified by use of the "popular" or "athletic" in this photo of student shuttle busses on the campus of the University of Pittsburgh. The "arched block PITT" logo, in this particular case, is used in a completely non-athletic context. Academic use of other "athletic/popular" logos occurs at many schools, including the University of Miami, which has used both their split "U" and Ibis logo in many academic contexts for many years. Logos and mascots can represent the universities as a whole, and this is often evidenced by the appearance of mascots at non-athletic functions. I also disagree with the analogy that most people think of Harvard Law when the first hear of Harvard. No one is advocating the use of logos restricted to representation of sub-entities, individual colleges, or programs, but to claim that popular/athletic logos are also so restricted in their representation is simply not the case in many instances. CrazyPaco (talk) 23:13, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- My take: in the infobox only, only the school-wide logo should be used. Articles about schools are about the school itself, not its athletic program or any other specific academic program. Importantly, not every school has an athletic program, and furthermore, relating more to how college athletics are run, it detracts from the academic nature of the institution which is first and foremost what the article should be covering. Now, this doesn't supercede the possible inclusion of a logo on a section about the school's athletic program that will likely be summarized in the body of the article (with the high probability that a separate article will be there for the school's athletic program). Just that in the infobox, it is distracting and misleading and creates a bias towards triple-AAA schools over smaller institutions and also non-American schools where such athletic programs don't exist in the same manner. --MASEM (t) 23:31, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- Should the information fields dealing with athletics also then be removed from University infoboxes? Who is to judge that athletics distracts from the academic nature of a university, and furthermore, what logos do and do not represent universities as a whole? This varies by institution, and certainly does not seem to have a one-size-fits-all answer. I believe the first question should be, are the logos providing useful information to the reader for identification purposes? However, I agree that inclusion of athletic-specific logos (if you can define that) in the body of the text of the athletic section could be warranted in place of the infobox. However, the editor responsible for the wave of edits that removed these logos from the infoboxes is also removing them athletic sections within the body of the article citing, I believe incorrectly, Wikipedia:NFC#Images_2 point 5. CrazyPaco (talk) 00:26, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
- I've no problem with wikilink fields for the school's athletic (and/or schoolwide) program/mascot/etc, as well as to any other significantly important academic programs, omitting these when they don't apply. Text is free and also less an eye-drawing piece of information. Logos potentially are non-free , and any guidance that allows for some logos outside of the main school logo in the infobox is either going to bias against some schools and biased towards athletic programs, or will significant increase the amount of non-free imagery used. --MASEM (t) 05:28, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with Masem. While we should prefer a free image, we should prefer being correct on top of that. If the athletic logo is not the same as the school's logo, we should not be using it in place of the real logo. Mr.Z-man 00:04, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
- The question isn't using it in place of, but rather in addition to, and often in conjunction with the fields in the infobox dealing with athletics (see Harvard University). Or, if it can indeed have broader application across a university, should it still be prohibited? How do you then define "athletic-specific" logos? CrazyPaco (talk) 00:26, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
- They can be included, as long as they aren't presented as the main logo, ie, in the main position near the top of the infobox. As for your other questions, neither of those matter. All that matters is that the primary logo in the infobox is the primary logo of the school, not the logo of some specific department or section. Mr.Z-man 04:45, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
- No athletic logo Infoboxes are meant to be a quick pull of salient, common, information. They also happen to be a handy place to throw salient common graphics - a crest, small photo, image or map. So far so good. And good enough, the tendency to add more and more to the infobox dilutes its usefulness. If the sporting side of an institution is important enough to merit its own article or a substantial section, then it can have its own infobox. I can think of lots of
crufttriviadatastuff that could go in that. Furthermore if it is a company logo, I would imagine these things are transient, and WP is not an advertising service, so I would be inclined to have a field "sponsor = Farmbrough Sportswear" rather than "sponsor logo = Farmbrough Sportswear.png". Rich Farmbrough, 17:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC).
- I also believe that in an article about a school or university that only the school-wide or university-wide logo should be used, if one is available for use. No single department logo should be used, whether athletic dept. or other well-known or relatively-unknown logo. I would support such a proposal if one is later made. (By the way, the organization of this RfC makes it a bit difficult to know where one should leave comment if one wants to comment on the original question and not get involved in all the meta-discussion.) Cheers. N2e (talk) 12:46, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- my attempt at the same — BQZip01 — talk 13:42, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
- I see no problem with allowing this decision to be made at the local (article) level. Put another way, I've seen no reason to prohibit the use of these logos in infoboxes. It is, IMO, likely that we shouldn't have them in the vast majority of cases. But Michigan and other large schools where the logo is very very commonly used to represent the university as a whole should have them. So yes, allow them and hope they are used wisely. :-) Hobit (talk) 03:36, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
keep alive edit intended to keep thread from being archived before RfC has run for 30 days --Hammersoft (talk) 12:59, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
University Standards
I think the university/school articles should have the seal at the top and the school graphic at the bottom (which seems to be the norm). All other logos should be elsewhere in the article (if applicable). Given the prominence sports teams and their identies as prominent school ambassadors, the primary logo for the sports teams is optional, but appropriate, in the athletics section; This does not remove the obligation to have a proper Fair Use Rationale, if applicable. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
- The wording for this will have to be careful. Take the example of the University of Pennsylvania: the image at the top of the article is actually the school's arms, not the seal (see here). For wording of a guideline, such possibilities may need to be accommodated for. CrazyPaco (talk) 17:00, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- Also, how does WP:NFCC #3a impact universities that utilize seals or athletic symbols within their school graphic? Pitt would an example of seal reuse (although a simplified version of the seal), while Texas A&M would be an example of "athletic" logo reuse. CrazyPaco (talk) 17:18, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- Using the seal in the infobox context is informative in nature and is a "fair use" application no matter what the legal use of the seal is nor what the University desires. It does not indicate a legal agreement or endorsement of the page, it is simply an indication of what the University's seal is. In my humble opinion, in the case of Pitt, the seal should be used as the main image and the arms logo at the bottom to most accurately reflect the images by which the University is known. The "PITT" logo should then be used in the athletics section as it most acurately reflects the symbol by which the athletic teams are known. Showing anything else would be a disservice to the University and its symbols as not being accurately reflective the logos by which they are known. — BQZip01 — talk 17:54, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- Regarding Penn specificially, my point was only to suggest careful wording of a guideline so editors don't feel compelled to use the seal vs. the arms for the infobox, regardless of any internal university policy. In the case of Penn, the arms is infinitely more common and, in this case, and may be more appropriate for the lead image because it may be more useful as an identifying mark. This decision may be better left to editors or Wikipedia projects that best know the article topic, than to generalize a guideline to just seals. Or perhaps a guideline should just read "seals or coats of arms". I think you confused Pitt and Penn, Pitt has no such arms logo. Pitt uses a simplified version of its seal and a wordmark in Janssen55 font as it's school graphic. The seal part of this logo would apparently violate WP:NFCC #3a if it also appeared in the infobox. A question I do not know the answer for is if it makes a difference whether the version of the seal in the "school graphic" is a simplified version. Does that negate NFCC #3a? For the Texas A&M article, minimal usage of the aTm logo is complicated by its adoption as the school's graphic. This is also true with the University of Miami, West Virginia and the University of Michigan.
- Using the seal in the infobox context is informative in nature and is a "fair use" application no matter what the legal use of the seal is nor what the University desires. It does not indicate a legal agreement or endorsement of the page, it is simply an indication of what the University's seal is. In my humble opinion, in the case of Pitt, the seal should be used as the main image and the arms logo at the bottom to most accurately reflect the images by which the University is known. The "PITT" logo should then be used in the athletics section as it most acurately reflects the symbol by which the athletic teams are known. Showing anything else would be a disservice to the University and its symbols as not being accurately reflective the logos by which they are known. — BQZip01 — talk 17:54, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- Despite these particularities, I still think it is useful, for identification purposes, that athletic logos such as the ones you have collected be allowed in, at least, the athletic portion of the infobox as was the case in many schools' articles prior to the wave of edits that removed them. The addition of an "athletic logo" field in template:infobox university could help standardize their placement and size. This would not prevent alternate non-free other or "mascot" logo use in the athletics portion of the text body if desired (e.g. the Pitt Panther or, in the case of Texas A&M, the T-star "Building Champions" logo or Ol' Sarge) which are often more tightly aligned with athletic programs than some of the others that have become representative symbols of the overall university. This would avoid single use per page restrictions while providing maximum information in the most visible portion of the article. I guess the issue is for me on this what is the Infobox for? In my mind, it is for quick profiling and identification of the article topic. Therefore, I believe that it is a disservice not to include such prominent identifying marks in the infobox, and this is especially true when they identify an alternative name such as "Pitt" or "Cal", but also takes on added importance when they are used outside athletic contexts and many of the logos in your collection are used in such a manner. CrazyPaco (talk) 19:08, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- I think such a proposal should go to the Wikiproject:Universities for approval before mass additions or deletions. I don't think this is a good idea, but that doesn't mean it can't be implemented. As for the duplication of images, I concur that there may be problems, but Universities typically have a host of ways their logos and typefaces should be presented. Usually there are a few dozen typeface-only options to choose from.
- I agree that it seems like the University Wikiproject is the place for it. Full circle back to the discussion there? CrazyPaco (talk) 22:28, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- I think such a proposal should go to the Wikiproject:Universities for approval before mass additions or deletions. I don't think this is a good idea, but that doesn't mean it can't be implemented. As for the duplication of images, I concur that there may be problems, but Universities typically have a host of ways their logos and typefaces should be presented. Usually there are a few dozen typeface-only options to choose from.
- As for mixing up Pitt and Penn, I sheepishly admit the error of my ways, quote the mantra of WP:IAR ten times, and humbly beg forgiveness from the great and powerful Oz. — BQZip01 — talk 22:19, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- Just don't confuse Pitt or Penn with Penn State, that will really rankle some feathers! CrazyPaco (talk) 22:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- As for mixing up Pitt and Penn, I sheepishly admit the error of my ways, quote the mantra of WP:IAR ten times, and humbly beg forgiveness from the great and powerful Oz. — BQZip01 — talk 22:19, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Other discussions
Other discussions exist on this subject. They are listed below. This RfC is another attempt to centralize discussion in a single, appropriate place that applies to the entire abstract concept being dealt with here.
- User_talk:Rettetast/Archive_10#Please_refrain_from_the_reversion_battle_on_the_Texas_Tech_page
- Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Universities#Logo_as_identifying_marks_in_infoboxes
- Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Problems_with_University_of_Pittsburgh_article
Related Village Pump (policy) discussions
The following subthreads were originally listed along with this discussion but have since been split into their own thread:
- Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_68#A_separate_issue:_trademark_policy_on_Wikipedia_and_legality
- Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_68#Varying matters regarding trademarks
Poll regarding style of scientific name of animals with common names
I would like to gather some opinions regarding the style of the introductory sentence in articles on animals. In particular, the difference between bolding and not bolding the italicized scientific name of a species with a well-known popular name. For the purposes of this opinion poll, forget current policy and guidelines, and merely focus on which style you think looks better. For example, which do you prefer, the top or bottom version of the following introductory paragraph from the "Blue Whale" article?
The Blue Whale (Balaenoptera musculus) is a marine mammal belonging to the suborder of baleen whales (called Mysticeti). Long and slender, the Blue Whale's body can be various shades of bluish-grey dorsally and somewhat lighter underneath.[1] There are at least three distinct subspecies: B. m. musculus of the North Atlantic and North Pacific, B. m. intermedia of the Southern Ocean and B. m. brevicauda (also known as the Pygmy Blue Whale) found in the Indian Ocean and South Pacific Ocean. B. m. indica, found in the Indian Ocean, may be another subspecies. As with other baleen whales, its diet consists almost exclusively of small crustaceans known as krill.
or
The Blue Whale (Balaenoptera musculus) is a marine mammal belonging to the suborder of baleen whales (called Mysticeti). Long and slender, the Blue Whale's body can be various shades of bluish-grey dorsally and somewhat lighter underneath.[2] There are at least three distinct subspecies: B. m. musculus of the North Atlantic and North Pacific, B. m. intermedia of the Southern Ocean and B. m. brevicauda (also known as the Pygmy Blue Whale) found in the Indian Ocean and South Pacific Ocean. B. m. indica, found in the Indian Ocean, may be another subspecies. As with other baleen whales, its diet consists almost exclusively of small crustaceans known as krill.
You can see the changes in the context of the real article here and here and I encourage you to look at those before deciding your opinion. When you vote, a quick note why you liked the one over the other is fine but please save your longer arguments for later as this is just intended to be a quick straw poll. Jason Quinn (talk) 20:01, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- No Bold - I can't see any reason to use the bold. Certainly not using it is far more aesthetically pleasing to me. I admit animals aren't in my "area of interest" or anything. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 20:10, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Bold. The unbolded one looks better, but as long as the scientific name is a redirect to the article as a synonym, I think the bolding is better overall for the article. (Then again, I think that animal article titles should follow "common name" capitalization too, so what do I know?) -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:16, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- That the pages are redirected from those names shouldn't come into play here (though I full agree that all the redirects should be there, as you say below). Other pages don't bold anything extra because of redirects. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 14:09, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, other pages bold the alternate names & synonyms of the title. See Boy George and Slaughterhouse, for examples. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:22, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- That the pages are redirected from those names shouldn't come into play here (though I full agree that all the redirects should be there, as you say below). Other pages don't bold anything extra because of redirects. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 14:09, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Bold per JHunterJ --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:14, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Bold All synonyms/aliases of an article title in the lede paragraph should be bolded. --Cybercobra (talk) 21:48, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Since so many are quoting policy in their answer, I want to reemphasize that the poll is not about policy, it is about aesthetics and style. I think I made this clear. Jason Quinn (talk) 18:00, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- If the poll is indeed just about looks, what's the point of the straw poll? That is, what would you do with the information gathered, except possibly inform a subsequent move to policy-ize (or guideline-ize) bolding or not bolding the scientific name? I also think the Mona Lisa looks better than Wikipedia, but I don't think we should replace Wikipedia with the Mona Lisa. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:21, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Inform a subsequent move to policy-ize (or guideline-ize) bolding or not bolding the scientific name. The Mona Lisa thing is a bad example. Jason Quinn (talk) 18:38, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- It's an Reductio ad absurdum example that may seem to lean counter to your goal, but that doesn't make it bad. If this poll is to inform a policy argument, then it is about policy, not looks completely ignoring policy. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:53, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Inform a subsequent move to policy-ize (or guideline-ize) bolding or not bolding the scientific name. The Mona Lisa thing is a bad example. Jason Quinn (talk) 18:38, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- If the poll is indeed just about looks, what's the point of the straw poll? That is, what would you do with the information gathered, except possibly inform a subsequent move to policy-ize (or guideline-ize) bolding or not bolding the scientific name? I also think the Mona Lisa looks better than Wikipedia, but I don't think we should replace Wikipedia with the Mona Lisa. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:21, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- No bold, per Wikipedia:LEAD#Foreign language: "Do not boldface foreign names not normally used in English." Also seems far more aesthetically pleasing to me. Would like to see the scientific name preceded by the link to the article describing it (Binomial nomenclature), i.e. the format "Blue Whale (scientific name: Balaenoptera musculus) is a marine animal...". We could use a template similar to {{lang}} templates for that. --Eleassar my talk 08:23, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Scientific names are in Latin, but those Latin phrases are in normal English usage -- that is, they appear in English-language reliable sources as a matter of course. The foreign-language Latin word for "Blue Whale" that should be avoided would be something on the "cetus" line, I think. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:45, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Realistically, however, is anyone likely to actually be searching Wikipedia for that exact name? I wonder if the most common searches would be for the common name and as long as those who search the scientific name also are directed to the correct article if the ultimate goals are met? -- Banjeboi 12:59, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Latin names for biological species are a result of a usage consensus of the scientific fields: the common name may vary from language to language, or even with slang used somewhere (such as "Blue Whale", "Ballena Azul", etc), but the scientific name is unique for all: scientists from anywhere in the world will read or say Balaenoptera musculus and they know exactly what are they talking about. A common name may also be applied to different species as if they were all the same, but the scientif name would not be the same one if the species are different. And yes, being a scientif convention it is likely to expect people searching by it. Technical terms should be used as little as posible (so, no saying Balaenoptera musculus when talking about the blue whale in a casual manner), but shouldn't be disregarded either. All species should have their scientific name redirecting to them, if they don't have it already MBelgrano (talk) 13:07, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Realistically, however, is anyone likely to actually be searching Wikipedia for that exact name? I wonder if the most common searches would be for the common name and as long as those who search the scientific name also are directed to the correct article if the ultimate goals are met? -- Banjeboi 12:59, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Scientific names are in Latin, but those Latin phrases are in normal English usage -- that is, they appear in English-language reliable sources as a matter of course. The foreign-language Latin word for "Blue Whale" that should be avoided would be something on the "cetus" line, I think. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:45, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Bold - both from an esthetic and a functional point of view. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:04, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- No bold. As JHunter says, it looks better, and the whole issue is about readability, usability and typography that supports them. NVO (talk) 15:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Should it matter whether the article is titled by the species' scientific name or a common name? I don't see this discussed above. Postdlf (talk) 15:38, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- No, this question is separate from whether the species articles are titled with scientific name or not. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:18, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- The question is only intended for situations where the main article is a common name, not a scientific name. I think it is clear (at least in my mind) that if the scientific name is used as the main article title, then it should be both italic and bold. Jason Quinn (talk) 17:55, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Bold. We always bold alternate names. Powers T 20:24, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- No bold. Alternative names are generally bolded, but they're usually more separated from the title term. When you have bold name (bold italicized name), the two names appear to run together too much; it looks like a single, long, strange name, as though you should always say "Blue Whale (Balaenoptera musculus)" every time you use the term. --Trovatore (talk) 22:48, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- That should be handled by simply fixing the lede sentence, bold italicized name commonly called bold name. -- Banjeboi 07:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- That's not too terrible. I still feel the "bold" !voters are taking an overly rigid and formalistic approach to this — binomial names are not "alternative names" in the usual sense, but rather identifiers from a specialized context. They should not really be put on the same level as the common names; the common names are the more important ones for us, and the binomial names are just an extra little tidbit of information. Still, your proposal is much better than putting the two names side-by-side and bolding them both. --Trovatore (talk) 21:23, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- That should be handled by simply fixing the lede sentence, bold italicized name commonly called bold name. -- Banjeboi 07:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Bold, as per tradition and functional use. Colds7ream (talk) 23:51, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Bold and work to establish a lede sentence format per MBelgrano, if the scientific name is universal and the common names vary then the lede should be scientific name commonly called common name and other common name is ____. In this way the bolded names don't abut one another and a common presentation allows for multiple names to be presented for our readers benefit. As we are a global encyclopedia it makes sense that we apply more weight to the universally used scientific names while still allowing for notable common names to also be used. -- Banjeboi 07:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- comment Actually, in my opinion, you have the levels of importance exactly backwards. Binomial names are terribly useful for what they do, but articles about commonly-known animals and plants are not usually primarily about biology or taxonomy. The primary importance should be placed on the common name or names; the fact that these names vary is just normal, something that we have to deal with all over the encyclopedia.
- Now, it's quite a different matter when you're talking about some obscure species, or when you're talking about taxonomic levels distinct from usual non-scientific classifications. Those articles probably are primarily about biology or taxonomy, and in those cases, the whole calculation changes. --Trovatore (talk) 22:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- The importance, which is listed first, similar to what the article is named should be sorted at the article or project level. In a bigger picture sense I see little difference between this issue and whether to bold someone's stage name(s) which are in the lede. We do it, for our readers who seek information. I do agree that keeping the bolded names separate makes sense as we are adding a visual cue. Those who are more adept at sussing out any rules for which goes first have my utter respect and blessing. -- Banjeboi 18:21, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Bold Reads better and is clearer for the first use. Though it is not the current issue, I think in agreement with Trovatore that we should follow the use of scientists in general and use the common name unless the taxonomy is being discussed. DGG ( talk ) 02:11, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Bold Most lifeforms have no names at all, and of those that remain the majority have only scientific names. It is only by the newness of Wikipedia that most lifeforms do not have articles, but as time passes, more will have articles, and that majority will only contain scientific names with no common names. At that point, it will be much clearer that the scientific name ought to be bold along with any common ones, so we should just anticipate the future now. Blue Rasberry 23:13, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
privileges for anon IPs
I was wondering if abilities such as undo should still be allowed for anonymous IPs. I don't know if this has been discussed or is 'heretical' to the idea of Wikipedia. We have bots to watch for vandalism, and are looking to the review of articles, do we still need to allow full access for anon IPs? Is it time to review? Alaney2k (talk) 20:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Do we get lots of abuse of the undo feature? I haven't seen much, but then I don't do much vandal fighting these days. --Tango (talk) 21:06, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I know of a case recently. By itself, one case is not much, I know. I think that a review of what an anon can do just might be in order. Maybe it has not been done in a while. On the line of trying to prevent abuse or hacks. It is not something that we have a bot to check for, and maybe we don't want to dedicate a bot to it. Alaney2k (talk) 21:17, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- There is a slippery slope between "good faith proposals to stop abuse of certain features" and "lets make it harder for IPs to edit because they are IPs". This proposal, unlike the last three we've had in a month is actually a good faith proposal. But it is still too close to that slippery slope. We do not ever discriminate against an editor just because he/she decides to edit under an IP address instead of signing in. Anyone/everyone has the right to edit under an IP. I have seen IPs undo vandalism, and yes have been surprised when I see that, but we shouldnt be surprised. There are lots of IPs that do good work here and have the same hatred of vandalism as we do. We must remember that many of the users here start as IP users, if we make it harder for IPs to edit and get addicted to Wikipedia (oh, and yes it can be an addiction!) then its not like they'll just decide to sign up. They will instead just not edit. We need more editors doing good, not restrict good editors because of possible misuse of functions. Punish those that do bad. Politely encourage good IPs to sign up.Camelbinky (talk) 21:30, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- It's hard to speak for anon IPs. Those you noticed who undid vandalism might have been editors who have not logged in. I've done that sort of thing myself. Would it be much of a hardship for anon IPs to not have undo? Probably not. I did think that since my last edit, that of course they should be able to undo their own edits. Maybe we could allow them to do undos of other anons, but not editor edits. Is that too complex? I am not trying to paint anon ips as bad. I think that anon ips would be fine without having the undo feature (of others' edits only, if that is sufficient). They could still do undos, with edits, which would be slower, and might dissuade bad behaviour. I would think becoming an editor and having the undo would be a positive reason to sign up, though, no? Not having it might not be much of a negative to new users. I think of it more like graduated licensing. Alaney2k (talk) 21:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I agree that this is a good idea, and by-itself wouldnt be an undue burden on IPs, but on the flipside- what about a year from now a more restrictive proposal comes up (like the three we've had this month) in which the proposer or a supporter states "well, we already took away the undo button, why not this?". Where does it end? Perhaps looking at the flipside can help; yes taking away the undo button wont hurt, but will leaving IPs the undo button hurt us? Perhaps there isnt a large number of IPs using the undo, but is that really supporting the idea that the undo is being abused? I'm conflicted on this issue because I really dont want in the future this proposal, if it goes through, being used as justification for the continued restriction of IPs. We see signed up users vandalizing and being disruptive all the time. Since it is so easy to sign up the vandalism we see as IPs will just be transfered to vandalism by usernames. Making it harder to edit as an IP may not drive the good ones to sign up as much as you think, it may actually encourage the good ones to not show up at all and encourage the bad ones to sign up instead. Those with disruptive tendencies tend to be more dedicated to what they want to do than the good people in this world.Camelbinky (talk) 21:58, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for putting forth the 'flipside.' I appreciate Wikipedia's open-ness. That is important to me, although what with people watching for notability, liability issues and vandalism, etc., it might be a bit of a myth already. (welcome to the 21st century! :-( ) The very idea of anon ips editing is good, very important. The implications; that's what we have to watch out for. (and the implications of the implications) And I think that will go on forever. Abuse; counter it; discuss; change maybe. Are we protecting those who are doing good well enough? It's a bit of a trade-off and we need as many minds as possible to bring forth their opinions. I do think that what you propose 'the because we did x, we can do y' argument would be shot down in and of itself. It would not be enough to get consensus, I'm sure. This is Wikipedia after all. As for the moving of the abuse to the logged on editors -that's a good point and I don't have a counter to that; I've got to think about that. (would anon ip undo controls be ineffective? etc.) And that's what this discussion is about; let's follow this thread through. Alaney2k (talk) 22:28, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I agree that this is a good idea, and by-itself wouldnt be an undue burden on IPs, but on the flipside- what about a year from now a more restrictive proposal comes up (like the three we've had this month) in which the proposer or a supporter states "well, we already took away the undo button, why not this?". Where does it end? Perhaps looking at the flipside can help; yes taking away the undo button wont hurt, but will leaving IPs the undo button hurt us? Perhaps there isnt a large number of IPs using the undo, but is that really supporting the idea that the undo is being abused? I'm conflicted on this issue because I really dont want in the future this proposal, if it goes through, being used as justification for the continued restriction of IPs. We see signed up users vandalizing and being disruptive all the time. Since it is so easy to sign up the vandalism we see as IPs will just be transfered to vandalism by usernames. Making it harder to edit as an IP may not drive the good ones to sign up as much as you think, it may actually encourage the good ones to not show up at all and encourage the bad ones to sign up instead. Those with disruptive tendencies tend to be more dedicated to what they want to do than the good people in this world.Camelbinky (talk) 21:58, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- It's hard to speak for anon IPs. Those you noticed who undid vandalism might have been editors who have not logged in. I've done that sort of thing myself. Would it be much of a hardship for anon IPs to not have undo? Probably not. I did think that since my last edit, that of course they should be able to undo their own edits. Maybe we could allow them to do undos of other anons, but not editor edits. Is that too complex? I am not trying to paint anon ips as bad. I think that anon ips would be fine without having the undo feature (of others' edits only, if that is sufficient). They could still do undos, with edits, which would be slower, and might dissuade bad behaviour. I would think becoming an editor and having the undo would be a positive reason to sign up, though, no? Not having it might not be much of a negative to new users. I think of it more like graduated licensing. Alaney2k (talk) 21:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- There is a slippery slope between "good faith proposals to stop abuse of certain features" and "lets make it harder for IPs to edit because they are IPs". This proposal, unlike the last three we've had in a month is actually a good faith proposal. But it is still too close to that slippery slope. We do not ever discriminate against an editor just because he/she decides to edit under an IP address instead of signing in. Anyone/everyone has the right to edit under an IP. I have seen IPs undo vandalism, and yes have been surprised when I see that, but we shouldnt be surprised. There are lots of IPs that do good work here and have the same hatred of vandalism as we do. We must remember that many of the users here start as IP users, if we make it harder for IPs to edit and get addicted to Wikipedia (oh, and yes it can be an addiction!) then its not like they'll just decide to sign up. They will instead just not edit. We need more editors doing good, not restrict good editors because of possible misuse of functions. Punish those that do bad. Politely encourage good IPs to sign up.Camelbinky (talk) 21:30, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I know of a case recently. By itself, one case is not much, I know. I think that a review of what an anon can do just might be in order. Maybe it has not been done in a while. On the line of trying to prevent abuse or hacks. It is not something that we have a bot to check for, and maybe we don't want to dedicate a bot to it. Alaney2k (talk) 21:17, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- FWIW, I'm currently being stalked by a multiple IP user, whose main goal is to revert my edits (PS: it's threatened me on my userpage, which I've reverted). GoodDay (talk) 22:25, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- WOW. I'm sorry and disheartened to hear such an incident. I hope you have brought this to ANI and some admin has been banning these IPs as they happen. I believe my issues with this proposal have been appropriately dealt with and I do now through my support behind it. Whatever the next step is for this to go ahead, go for it, I encourage it for what its worth.Camelbinky (talk) 01:34, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- Regardless of the idiot behind these IPs, I don't think removing the (undo) function from IPs is a good thing at all. In my mind, a wrongly done (undo) actually makes vandalism more obvious. Let's say that I realise that two pages have the same small error, and I fix them, but then an IP comes and reverts both: on one page, the IP simply goes into the history and reverts without leaving any edit summary (or leaving a deceitful summary), while on the other page, the IP uses the undo feature. The standard summary for an undo is much longer and thus easier to see, and when you realise that the IP hasn't reverted vandalism or another sort of unconstructive edit, the IP's edit immediately becomes suspect. However, the lack of an edit summary gives less visual reason to suspect vandalism, and the presence of a good-looking summary is even less. Let's not remove from potential vandals a way to make their damage easier to revert. Nyttend (talk) 13:11, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- It's my firm belief (and hope), that registration will become mandatory. GoodDay (talk) 13:31, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) IPs abuse the Undo feature sometimes, but, it's also used for good more often. Users abuse the Undo feature more often than IPs do...--Unionhawk Talk E-mail Review 13:34, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- While I very much appreciate the legitimate arguments for this proposal, I tend to agree with Nyttend; it's easier to spot and quickly revert an illegitimate "undo" (especially one that's a bit buried in the edit history) than a vandal edit without any edit summary.--Arxiloxos (talk) 18:01, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) IPs abuse the Undo feature sometimes, but, it's also used for good more often. Users abuse the Undo feature more often than IPs do...--Unionhawk Talk E-mail Review 13:34, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- It's my firm belief (and hope), that registration will become mandatory. GoodDay (talk) 13:31, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- Regardless of the idiot behind these IPs, I don't think removing the (undo) function from IPs is a good thing at all. In my mind, a wrongly done (undo) actually makes vandalism more obvious. Let's say that I realise that two pages have the same small error, and I fix them, but then an IP comes and reverts both: on one page, the IP simply goes into the history and reverts without leaving any edit summary (or leaving a deceitful summary), while on the other page, the IP uses the undo feature. The standard summary for an undo is much longer and thus easier to see, and when you realise that the IP hasn't reverted vandalism or another sort of unconstructive edit, the IP's edit immediately becomes suspect. However, the lack of an edit summary gives less visual reason to suspect vandalism, and the presence of a good-looking summary is even less. Let's not remove from potential vandals a way to make their damage easier to revert. Nyttend (talk) 13:11, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- As someone who is not particularly fond of IPers, the abuse I've seen from them does not usually come in the form of undo's and most of the undo's I've seen are appropriate. If IPers are seen as casual editors then it's hard to think of a more casual edit that undoing random vandalism, so this ban would, imo, take away the ability to do the thing they're best at.--RDBury (talk) 16:16, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- Undo is a feature more useful for doing good edits than bad. I see a lot of undos by anonymous IPs that are legitimate reversions of vandalism inserted by other IPs. If an IP wanted to revert some content removal or replacement without undo they may decide to just remove the new offending text without putting back the old, or put back the old via copy and paste, losing wiki formatting. On the other hand, an IP trying to vandalise isn't trying to restore eloquently formatted prose, so undo is less useful to them. I also agree with Nyttend: the undo edit summaries make it easier to see what's going on in histories. For example, an IP undo of a registered user is likely to be mischief, while an IP undo of another IP is likely to be a vandalism fix. • Anakin (talk) 05:56, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Not being interested in wiki-bureaucracy, I've kept my anonymity, despite the fact I've been on wikipedia for years, and have witnessed the perpetual bloat of rules and regulations - to the point where now, one needs not argue, they need only cite an appropriate regulation without considering the spirit. This idea's another globule of saliva in the face of the spirit of wikipedia - an encyclopedia where ANYONE can easily contribute, even if it's just correcting the grammar of a statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.205.24.53 (talk) 18:23, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- I believe that an Wiki newbie would disagree about 'easily contribute'. I don't believe that the 'interface' for Wikipedia makes it easy for anyone. Look at the syntax for a table, or bolding or italics. It's its own language. Finding appropriate categories for an article. Look at the templates threatening removal for lack of notability. There is a link for undo, but is there an explanation? Is there a 'are you sure' interface? We should be somewhat more realistic. It's a bit daunting to edit on Wikipedia. Breaking rules you have no idea about. I could even argue that limiting undos may be helpful. Anyway, this is just speculating from anecdotal evidence.
Anyway, what I wanted people to think about, is what should be allowed from the start, and what should be allowed after 'moving up' shall we say to a named editor. I've seen software in my experience that grows with your experience. After becoming a named editor, there are a few privileges, such as revert. So the idea is not unfamiliar here on Wikipedia. I was thinking about the idea of the undo and how you could just as easily be abusive with the undo as a new user. Well maybe we should extend the idea of the controls on an anon to a newly-created user. What if we have a simpler interface for newly-created users, that makes it harder or not allow undos of other's work until you've edited a few times? Insert a few 'are you sure' prompts on the undos and we might dissuade vandals. But just a few. Only at a level that we can feel comnfortable with. And that is what my point is, are we comfortable with a small level of blockage for newbies and anons? Like putting in 'are you sure' prompts and making edit summaries mandatory?
I feel we can move in this direction. I think we can become more graduated in permissions, and as part of this be more friendly. Is that a fair trade-off? Alaney2k (talk) 23:33, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Pronounciation
I visited the entry for Albert Speer, which contains the following: Albert Speer (born Berthold Konrad Hermann Albert Speer[1] and pronounced /ˈʃpɛɐ/;
I understand that Wikipedia has a pronounciation policy but when I, a native English speaker, holder of a law degree _and_ a Masters in English, don't have a clue about how to pronounce "Speer" after reading the entry, there is a problem with the policy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.183.92.50 (talk) 18:41, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- What would you suggest as an alternative to IPA? Powers T 20:08, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- If someone could design a web-based pronounce-o-bot that could speak IPA, and hook it into wikipedia... --King Öomie 20:14, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, and by the way, the IPA you posted describes the British Received Pronunciation of the word "Speer". Which I suppose you could render "Spay-ah" or "Spee-ah". --King Öomie 20:19, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- Or I could be wrong and he's German. Damn. I'm pretty sure that's an 'SH' sound on the front, there. --King Öomie 20:22, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- Now, I will start this by stating that I don't have a set of standards that could replace the IPA pronounciation. However, I like linguistics, and had to learn the IPA alphabet and pronounciations while in college. I was not a linguistics major, so after that class I never had to use the IPA again. And to be honest, I remember almost none of it. Now saying that, I can guarantee that the vast majority of the population has never learned the IPA alphabet. So while this is a guess, but I would assume that 99.9% of people reading articles on WP have no clue what the IPA symbols stand for, and gives the reader no real idea how to actually pronounce the word in question. We just add it to the articles because it is the professional standard. I prefer when articles use more common ways of explaining pronounciation (for instance, I cited the pronounciation of "Chipotle" from a news article as "chi-POAT-lay"). That is more helpful, and I'd hope more articles would use phonetic pronounciations rather than relying on IPA, for the simple reason that the reader will actually understand it. Angryapathy (talk) 20:23, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- IPA pronunciations in articles are unsourced 99.99% of the time, and unsourceable 95% of the time. Plus, they disrupt the flow of the first sentence, and (as noted above) are unintelligible to the general readership. Plus, that's what dictionaries are for. Why do we include them at all? Even if it said "pronounced like 'shpair'", it would still disrupt the article. If they really need to be in the article, I'd stick them over in the infobox where possible, as:
[[Wikipedia:IPA for English|IPA pronunciation]: /ˈʃpɛɐ/
so it would at least be clearer where you can go for help with IPA; right now, it isn't obvious that the pronunciation is linked. But better still, IMHO, is to nuke them. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:29, 16 October 2009 (UTC)- The problem with directly spelling out pronunciation is that it only disambiguates non-phonetic text if the reader speaks the same language (or dialect) that you do. There's any number of ways that any number of languages can pronounce "chi-POAT-lay" and be completely correct. But under IPA, there's only one way to pronounce /chə-pōt'lā/. --King Öomie 20:33, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- And then 9 people will then know how to pronounce it correctly. Angryapathy (talk) 20:35, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- The problem with directly spelling out pronunciation is that it only disambiguates non-phonetic text if the reader speaks the same language (or dialect) that you do. There's any number of ways that any number of languages can pronounce "chi-POAT-lay" and be completely correct. But under IPA, there's only one way to pronounce /chə-pōt'lā/. --King Öomie 20:33, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- IPA pronunciations in articles are unsourced 99.99% of the time, and unsourceable 95% of the time. Plus, they disrupt the flow of the first sentence, and (as noted above) are unintelligible to the general readership. Plus, that's what dictionaries are for. Why do we include them at all? Even if it said "pronounced like 'shpair'", it would still disrupt the article. If they really need to be in the article, I'd stick them over in the infobox where possible, as:
- Now, I will start this by stating that I don't have a set of standards that could replace the IPA pronounciation. However, I like linguistics, and had to learn the IPA alphabet and pronounciations while in college. I was not a linguistics major, so after that class I never had to use the IPA again. And to be honest, I remember almost none of it. Now saying that, I can guarantee that the vast majority of the population has never learned the IPA alphabet. So while this is a guess, but I would assume that 99.9% of people reading articles on WP have no clue what the IPA symbols stand for, and gives the reader no real idea how to actually pronounce the word in question. We just add it to the articles because it is the professional standard. I prefer when articles use more common ways of explaining pronounciation (for instance, I cited the pronounciation of "Chipotle" from a news article as "chi-POAT-lay"). That is more helpful, and I'd hope more articles would use phonetic pronounciations rather than relying on IPA, for the simple reason that the reader will actually understand it. Angryapathy (talk) 20:23, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- If someone could design a web-based pronounce-o-bot that could speak IPA, and hook it into wikipedia... --King Öomie 20:14, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm a big fan of WP:RESPELL, though it's not perfect either. --Cybercobra (talk) 21:08, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- It seems to me that a pronunciation guide of some kind is needed in some cases. In particular when it's a name that sounds very different from the way it would be pronounced in English. Leonhard Euler comes to mind; German has this weird rule about 'eu' so the correct pronunciation is very different that the way it appears to an English speaker. Note that the article includes BOTH the IPA and a phonetic spelling. I can see the reasons for using the IPA; it's an international standard and it's free. But in addition to the issue that it's unintelligible to most people, it doesn't allow for acceptable regional variations. So, for example, the name "Potter" could have 4 or 5 IPA spellings depending on the country and region of the speaker. My old American Heritage dictionary had a system to get around this, but they also has a long essay to explain how to use it. RESPELL looks like it's using the same idea but with any system is going to require some effort on the part of the readers if they want to make sure they are getting the correct pronunciation.--RDBury (talk) 13:23, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- The fact is that IPA is the only choice for non-ambiguous and verifiable pronunciations. If you don't understand IPA, then take the time to learn it and we'll all be better off. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 15:44, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- Technically true, perhaps, but how many dictionaries and other general reference works use IPA for their pronunciation guides? IPA is a tool for professional linguists, and using it in a general reference work is not very helpful to a reader since so few people are familiar with the conventions, and the description "Voiceless bilabial fricative" means absolutely nothing to most people. SDY (talk) 16:46, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- This is supposed to be a general purpose encyclopedia, people should not have to go out of their way to be able to use our articles fully. In an ideal world, yes, IPA is the best tool for the job; however, we live in the practical world, where 99.99% of our readers and probably most editors do not know IPA. Mr.Z-man 17:06, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- The fact is that IPA is the only choice for non-ambiguous and verifiable pronunciations. If you don't understand IPA, then take the time to learn it and we'll all be better off. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 15:44, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- It seems to me that a pronunciation guide of some kind is needed in some cases. In particular when it's a name that sounds very different from the way it would be pronounced in English. Leonhard Euler comes to mind; German has this weird rule about 'eu' so the correct pronunciation is very different that the way it appears to an English speaker. Note that the article includes BOTH the IPA and a phonetic spelling. I can see the reasons for using the IPA; it's an international standard and it's free. But in addition to the issue that it's unintelligible to most people, it doesn't allow for acceptable regional variations. So, for example, the name "Potter" could have 4 or 5 IPA spellings depending on the country and region of the speaker. My old American Heritage dictionary had a system to get around this, but they also has a long essay to explain how to use it. RESPELL looks like it's using the same idea but with any system is going to require some effort on the part of the readers if they want to make sure they are getting the correct pronunciation.--RDBury (talk) 13:23, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- Why are multiple editors saying there are more than one way to pronounce things like someone's last name? Do alot of people have more than one pronounciation for their last name? Because I have one, no matter how many people mispronounce it there is ONE (mine) correct way, and I would assume that is the fact for everyone's last name. Many words out there have a correct way as well, though hillbillies in certain parts may mispronounce things. Out of the MANY MANY words in the English language few are pronounced differently in England, the US, Canada, Australia, etc. "About" between Canada and the US is probably the biggest difference, and even that one has been declining in recent years. Alot of the differences are differences in words themselves (lift vs elevator, lorry vs truck, chips vs french fry, potato crisp vs potato chip). We should use the most general pronounciation of a word in the dialect in which the word is generally from. There may still be problems though. Appalachia is pronounced differently by the people who live in them than by the majority of Americans; which would we use? I say the general majority, not the hillbillies who live there. Just because certain areas of the south and west of the US have not had a history of education and standard pronunciation as the rest of the English speaking world, it doesnt mean their pronunciation is "equally correct".Camelbinky (talk) 17:19, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- What about the pronunciation of "Oregon"? Powers T 18:19, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- More people probably say that one "wrong" than "right" sadly. If there are multiple accepted pronunciations of the word, there's nothing saying we can't put both. I agree with the original poster that putting IPA is about as helpful as including nothing at all, and frankly encyclopedias rarely include pronunciation anyway (this is a more fundamental problem for wikitionary). If all else fails, "let's call the whole thing off." SDY (talk) 01:09, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- I tend to agree, except I'd hate to lose things like the correct pronunciation of Euler or Sault Ste. Marie. Powers T 03:14, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Is it feasible to put a link to the corresponding wiktionary article at the the very beginning of articles so, in essence putting the task on them to come up with the correct pronounciation. I dont know how many of our articles have corresponding articles in wiktionary, but I would assume there'd be Oregon at least, and maybe even Sault Ste. Marie (which I must admit I dont know how to pronounce though I do know WHERE it is, and since I think there are two, one in Canada and one in the US it might even have two pronounciations). Any thoughts?Camelbinky (talk) 03:40, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- I tend to agree, except I'd hate to lose things like the correct pronunciation of Euler or Sault Ste. Marie. Powers T 03:14, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- More people probably say that one "wrong" than "right" sadly. If there are multiple accepted pronunciations of the word, there's nothing saying we can't put both. I agree with the original poster that putting IPA is about as helpful as including nothing at all, and frankly encyclopedias rarely include pronunciation anyway (this is a more fundamental problem for wikitionary). If all else fails, "let's call the whole thing off." SDY (talk) 01:09, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- What about the pronunciation of "Oregon"? Powers T 18:19, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
(undent) Fact: There is no one system of pronunciation that works perfectly for all languages and dialects and is easy to understand. Fact: IPA is the most unambiguous system available. Given those, I think there's a case for including IPA pronunciations. If there are more than three major (regional) pronunciations, there's probably a case for some prose explaining it in its own section, or a footnote. If there are three or fewer, it's probably fair to keep it in the lead. We gain from diversity as long as we don't overdo the length (and if we can overdo the length, the footnote case is often worthwhile). I like the respelling system, and personally I'd be happy with an overlapping combination of the simple respelling and unambiguous IPA. Pronunciations probably don't need strict sourcing, though BLP might apply to some extent for names, e.g. Neil Gaiman, but names are usually much more sourceable if they're ambiguous enough to need pronunciation. I don't think this is an area where we have serious problems. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 04:30, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- The example is spurious
The IPA pronunciation of Albert Speer as given above (until I correct it in a few) is factually incorrect. It is the German pronunciation, but linked to the English IPA key. It needs to either be made English, or linked to the German IPA key.
A few misunderstandings above, made worse by this bad example. First, the IPA is used in English dictionaries, including the greatest of them all, the OED. Second, the English IPA key we use works equally well for all major English dialects, though it's missing a few distinctions of Scottish etc. It's been designed so that you don't have to speak the same dialect as the transcriber. If you do, it's been transcribed incorrectly. As for sourcing, we do have sources for many names. Sourcing problems are on a case by case basis, not a problem for the system itself.
Van Gogh is a good example of a pronunciation guide that became overly intrusive and was turned into a footnote. I agree that it is often disruptive in the lead; on the other hand, with counter-intuitive pronunciations it is often best IMO to set the record straight right away, so the reader doesn't go through the article with an incorrect pronunciation in their head. In the case of Speer, I don't see any reason for the IPA to be in the lead rather than in a footnote, but that's a decision for the people getting the article to FA status.
We have both a respelling system and an AHD-type system for use on WP, though by common consensus they're secondary to the IPA. The respelling system can even handle the Scottish fur-fir-fern distinction that our IPA convention cannot, but it has trouble with simple words like "vice". The AHD-type system is going to be gibberish to most people outside the US.
As for people, mostly Americans, whose knowledge of the IPA is on par with their comfort with the metric system, that's what we have the keys for. Click on the IPA and you'll be taken to a page that explains it to you. (Note that in order for them to be unambiguous, respellings and the AHD also need to be linked to keys.)
We've been working on & off on a pop-up to remind people of the IPA for English phonemes, but there are technical difficulties that have prevented us for doing that satisfactorily. If any of you can figure out how to fit a summary on a mouse hover-over window, that could be very useful. kwami (talk) 05:29, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- (our article on IPA) "However, most American (and some British) volumes use one of a variety of pronunciation respelling systems, intended to be more comfortable for readers of English." Dictionaries don't use IPA consistently, and for good reason: it's a bit technical. IPA is ambiguous because very few people know it. In the US, it's not part of any standard high school curriculum (unlike the metric system, which is taught in elementary school), and frankly most people I know probably associate the acronym with India Pale Ale than with the writing system. SDY (talk) 17:06, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Having no meaning to a particular reader or set of readers ("very few people know it") is not the same as having two meanings ("ambiguous"). IPA is technical and unambiguous. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:12, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- It ends up being ambiguous, though, because it has no meaning to most readers. Semantics aside, the question is: do we want to help our readers pronounce the topic correctly, or do we want to have an accurate technical description of the sounds used? The respelling systems generally satisfy the first, and IPA generally satisfies the second. They're both viable goals, but unless some sort of technical solution is found it's one or the other. I'm thinking the mph/kph display option in an ideal world, but the hover is also a good idea. SDY (talk) 17:17, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Semantics (meanings) are important. It ends up being not useful enough, perhaps, because it's esoteric, but it's not ambiguous like respellings can be. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:22, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- A difference between Langue and parole, as one person put it. What I meant by "semantics" was an overzealous application of a narrow meaning when a broader meaning was implied, which is the current popular use of the word. SDY (talk) 17:42, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Then I think there's a second semantics problem, an overzealous application of "ambiguous". -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:06, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not using it in the linguistics sense, but should that surprise anyone given the content of my arguments? Wiktionary gives two definitions, the way I'm using it clearly adheres to the second. SDY (talk) 18:15, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Then I think there's a second semantics problem, an overzealous application of "ambiguous". -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:06, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- A difference between Langue and parole, as one person put it. What I meant by "semantics" was an overzealous application of a narrow meaning when a broader meaning was implied, which is the current popular use of the word. SDY (talk) 17:42, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- With respelling, most readers (those who do not speak the same dialect as the person who wrote the respelling) will misinterpret it, and go away with the wrong pronunciation. With IPA, many readers will not understand, and those who actually care about the pronuncation will read our IPA help chart, and thus go away with the right pronunciation, while those who don't care will not bother. It's better to provide a service that helps those people who want it than one that actively harms the understanding of most readers. Algebraist 17:24, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Semantics (meanings) are important. It ends up being not useful enough, perhaps, because it's esoteric, but it's not ambiguous like respellings can be. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:22, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- It ends up being ambiguous, though, because it has no meaning to most readers. Semantics aside, the question is: do we want to help our readers pronounce the topic correctly, or do we want to have an accurate technical description of the sounds used? The respelling systems generally satisfy the first, and IPA generally satisfies the second. They're both viable goals, but unless some sort of technical solution is found it's one or the other. I'm thinking the mph/kph display option in an ideal world, but the hover is also a good idea. SDY (talk) 17:17, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Having no meaning to a particular reader or set of readers ("very few people know it") is not the same as having two meanings ("ambiguous"). IPA is technical and unambiguous. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:12, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
I rather object to the "nobody knows it" trope. A very large number of users of the English WIkipedia are people who have learned English as a foreign language, and ALL of them made use of the IPA in their dictionaries. -- Evertype·✆ 17:21, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Even if that is the case, there are a substantial group of users (including the original poster for this thread) to which IPA means nothing. As for respelling systems "harming the understanding" of "most readers" I have serious doubts about that. Regardless, I think we're at the point now where we have fallen back on our expectations of who Wikipedia users are, which differ, and further argument will convince few. I strongly endorse having both systems available or a way to make IPA less ɑːbˈtuːs. SDY (talk) 17:42, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Æbˈtuːs? IPA is what it is. Does just what it says on the tin. This is an encyclopaedia—surely the wikilink at the top of an article that says IPA is sufficient to help people who encounter it for the first time. Anyone who uses an English dictionary encounters some sort of phonetic re-spelling; the concept of re-spelling for pronunciation is not new to anybody, I think, unless they have stopped using dictionaries in US schools or something. I remember the Thorndike-Barnhardt re-spellings from when I was a kid in the early '70s. I encountered the IPA in the mid-'70s. At the end of the day I think we can expect that people who come to the Wikipedia without knowing the IPA will be capable of learning about it. That is, after all, one of the aims of an encyclopaedia. -- Evertype·✆ 07:49, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
TV spoilers
I don't think articles should give away plot details of future episodes of TV shows. I think there should be a spoiler policy to this effect. The current spoiler policy needs clarified. Giving details of episodes that have already aired is fine, as a reader who is reading an article when they know they aren't up-to-date in their watching should expect they might come across spoilers, but to give away plot details about future episodes means that it is never safe to read an article about a tv show even if you have seen all the latest episodes. Big Way (talk) 05:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- Please see Wikipedia:Spoiler. The existence of a heading such as "Plot" or "Ending" signifies that a comprehensive plot summary follows. Hence spoiler warnings are not warranted. Bongomatic 05:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- Talk about empathy failure. Why do you think I brought this up here? I said I don't think articles should give away plot details of future episodes of TV shows. I said that because I saw plot details that I didn't want to see until I'd had a chance to see the episode for myself. Do you think pointing me at some other page is going to make me want to see plot details, or make me think that Wikipedia should give future details? Big Way (talk) 05:34, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- If the spoiler is given by reliable media sources, we should include it if appropriate. If it's coming from forums or other less-than-reliable sources, then no we shouldn't include it. But as noted, we don't avoid the inclusion of spoilers because what is a spoiler to one may be common sense to another and is too subjective. --MASEM (t) 05:16, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- If an article tells you what is going to happen in an episode a few weeks from now, then there is nothing ambiguous about that. It is a spoiler pure and simple. I don't understand what you mean by using the phrase "common sense" to describe plot details about a future episode. Big Way (talk) 05:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- If a reader doesn't wish to see plot details revealed, then he or she can elect not to read plot summaries. Bongomatic 05:26, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- The work itself is a reliable (primary) source for its own plot, which is not controversial. Primary sources are fine for this purpose. Bongomatic 05:19, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- We're an encyclopedia not a TV guide. Spoiler warnings aren't appropriate. • Anakin (talk) 06:00, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- if only vague information on the plot is available, then that may be all that can be given, but it still should not be written in the typical manner -- e.g. "They are then confronted with a surprising menace." and stopping there is never acceptable. But the information should be updated to reflect the whole story when the material is broadcast, using either the program directly as source or a reliable review. There is no excuse for our not telling the ending when it is known. The purpose of unfinished plot summaries is for advertising the program to attract viewers, but it's pretty basic that we do not do write in a promotional manner for any type of anything. If the actual wording of the program's official trailer or other advertising is itself significant, then Masem's suggestion might be appropriate, and it should be given in addition to the full plot--this may be the case for some really major suspense programs. DGG ( talk ) 06:18, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- I think Big Way has a point about plot summaries or spoilers in articles about episodes before they air. If it's after the episode airs then the episode itself serves as a source. But if the episode hasn't aired yet then this isn't true, so where is the information coming from? Reliable sources generally don't include spoilers. If the editor putting the information in the article has a copy of the script or has seen a seek preview then the information isn't verifiable. Otherwise the editor is using rumor mills or guesswork to get the information and this isn't reliable. Studios do go to some trouble to ensure that plot details don't become common knowledge before the event and whoever is circumventing that must be doing it outside WP guidelines in one of these ways.--RDBury (talk) 13:49, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
The following information which I've hidden in a collapsible navbox appears in the House (TV series) article in a section called Main characters:
I think something should be done to avoid information like this appearing randomly in an article. Perhaps it could be put in a separate article called Upcoming events (House TV series) or some such until it has actually happened and then it can be put in the main article. Big Way (talk) 18:06, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- If it's already been reported in reliable sources that a particular actor is leaving a show in advance of that occurring within an episode that has been broadcast, it's hardly a secret that it's going to happen. Postdlf (talk) 18:10, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm with Masem: if the fact has been reported as confirmed by reliable sources, it's fair game. Doesn't matter whether it's been seen in the show. (As distinct from speculation on future plotlines.) That spoiler box is totally unsuitable for an encylopedia article.
- To RDBury: you're suggesting that only rumour mills and the like report plot details before the airdate. That's demonstrably false—reliable sources often include spoilers, for example when a script is leaked under controversial circumstances or when they're reporting on the activities taking place during location shoots. If a Wikipedia editor has a copy of the script and is leaking details, then it's probably not reliable; but if it's a member of the press who obtains the script or interviews some member of the production, it's perfectly valid. TheFeds 19:07, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- Point taken. On the other hand, leaked details, even if reported by a reliable source, are subject to change before airing. So the text in the article would have to read something like "According to information leaked to TV Guide, the entire last season of Dallas was actually a dream and never happened." Technically it's within the guidelines but it still seems inappropriate to me. On the third hand, there are the infamous lost episodes of Roughnecks: Starship Troopers Chronicles where people probably do want to know what would have happened if studio hadn't run out of money to make them. So basically now I'm just confused.--RDBury (talk) 06:31, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- To RDBury: you're suggesting that only rumour mills and the like report plot details before the airdate. That's demonstrably false—reliable sources often include spoilers, for example when a script is leaked under controversial circumstances or when they're reporting on the activities taking place during location shoots. If a Wikipedia editor has a copy of the script and is leaking details, then it's probably not reliable; but if it's a member of the press who obtains the script or interviews some member of the production, it's perfectly valid. TheFeds 19:07, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Well, I have yet to watch an episode of Lost, so I'd appreciate it if y'all don't ruin my suspense until I can borrow the DVDs. Postdlf (talk) 19:24, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- Don't click me! OrangeDog (talk • edits) 12:13, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Surprised noone mentioned this upon User:Big Way's example, but there in fact used to be spoiler warnings in WP -- however, after MUCH heated debate, as well as perhaps a bit of being extra bold, caused their loss. In other words, WP went from being warning-laden to warning-free and it's very doubtful it'll go back, all things considered. Just remember that WP documents info, in a supposedly academic way. Spoiler warnings really don't fit in with that goal. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 14:09, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Revision deletion has been marked as a policy
Wikipedia:Revision deletion ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as a policy. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
I saw at the Gaza War and the Battle of Kosovo articles a (KIA)-sign for muslims who were killed in action, instead of the usual †-sign. The argument given at the Battle of Kosovo was, that "muslims have their own sign." This might be true, but the old Romans at the Battle of Carrhae and the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest, the greek commander at the Battle of Marathon or the Japanese commander at the Battle of Peleliu weren't Christians either, and I guess they would have had their own signs as well. And still they got crosses or, better, daggers behind their name. Moreover, according to the Dagger-article, this sign is used in military history to be "placed next to the name of a commander who is killed in action"; it doesn't give any exclusions for it.
So my question is: should WP always use the †-sign, or should we use all kinds of symbols for every group that has another sign for people ho were "kiled in action"?Jeff5102 (talk) 12:23, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Given that I can't see the other sign (and I have above-average unicode font coverage), I would say always use †. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 14:06, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'd say always use (K.I.A) since I'm not really a fan of using abstract symbols where something meaningful could be used instead. Plus, at the risk of being overly politically correct, I think it's a valid point that non-Christians may be offended by the † and it's silly to have a different symbol for every possible religious group; what would you do for Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, even Unitarians? And making the determination isn't trivial, e.g. there are plenty of Christian Arabs. Meaningful and noncontroversial always beats cryptic and possibly offensive.--RDBury (talk) 15:09, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Because of the possible confusion with the other use of the dagger symbol—footnotes—it should be explained if used. And because it could be misconstrued as religious, I would support an alternate form of identification that could not be mistaken as implying that the deceased was a Christian. Also, note that in German, the dagger is used to mean "died on some date" rather than "killed in action"; that's another possible avenue of confusion. TheFeds 16:42, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Can you not just write out "killed in action"? There's no shortage of paper at Wikipedia.--Kotniski (talk) 16:46, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed. "Killed in action" or "KIA" seem like they would always be better than a dagger symbol, regardless. — Gavia immer (talk) 17:00, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Can you not just write out "killed in action"? There's no shortage of paper at Wikipedia.--Kotniski (talk) 16:46, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Because of the possible confusion with the other use of the dagger symbol—footnotes—it should be explained if used. And because it could be misconstrued as religious, I would support an alternate form of identification that could not be mistaken as implying that the deceased was a Christian. Also, note that in German, the dagger is used to mean "died on some date" rather than "killed in action"; that's another possible avenue of confusion. TheFeds 16:42, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Hm. If they do have their own sign, what does it look like, and is it in Unicode? -- Evertype·✆ 17:23, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- It's hard to explain, but I'm pretty sure it was something in Arabic. For some reason, it won't show up anymore. If this were still working, I would see no reason why it would not be used.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:25, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
- Because readers wouldn't understand it? If space is so short that you can't fit the words in, then at least use the abbreviation, so people have at least a chance of knowing what you mean.--Kotniski (talk) 06:32, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- It takes up no more space than the dagger. And if a reader is unsure of its meaning, all he has to do is click on the acronym and it will direct him to the KIA article, at least if it were still working.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:59, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm sure I'm not being obtuse. Please point me to an example of the symbol. -- Evertype·✆ 22:29, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- Lol. It's just a skull and crossbones. I always thought it was something different since it popped up on all the Islamic military history articles. I don't know if it symbolizes anything but if it doesn't, it's practically useless. The dagger should be used in that case. I apologize for being so rash! (See the Turkish Wikipedia: [3])--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 00:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm sure I'm not being obtuse. Please point me to an example of the symbol. -- Evertype·✆ 22:29, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- It takes up no more space than the dagger. And if a reader is unsure of its meaning, all he has to do is click on the acronym and it will direct him to the KIA article, at least if it were still working.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:59, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- Because readers wouldn't understand it? If space is so short that you can't fit the words in, then at least use the abbreviation, so people have at least a chance of knowing what you mean.--Kotniski (talk) 06:32, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Night_of_the_Pencils#The_kidnappings seems to me a clear violation of WP:NOTMEMORIAL, yet another editor insists on re-adding the non-notable names. Could I get further opinions? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 01:47, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Per WP criminal notability guidelines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(criminal_acts) :
"Notability of criminal acts:
Criminal act includes a matter in which a crime has been established, or a matter has been deemed a likely crime by the relevant law enforcement agency or judicial authority. For example, the disappearance of a person would fall under this guideline if law enforcement agencies deemed it likely to have been caused by criminal conduct, regardless of whether a perpetrator is identified or charged.
Victims:
A victim of a crime should normally only be the subject of an article where an article that satisfied notability criteria existed."
Therefore, since the crime is notable (moreover in regards to dissapearances, as WP's own example provides), then the identity of the victims is notable, and does not constitute a memorial. Losthistory (talk) 01:58, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Wording of policy policy
How should the lead section of the policy page on policies and guidelines be worded? Opinions sought at WT:Policies and guidelines#Language getting more abstruse.--Kotniski (talk) 10:27, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
New essay
Some people confuse prominence with notability in discussing Wikipedia practice, policy, and guidelines. I try to disambiguate between the two topics. Please help, if you'd like.
Wikipedia:Notability vs. prominence
ScienceApologist (talk) 19:40, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Another "OOKers" vs "listers" skirmish
If interested, please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics#Outlines in general and List of logic topics. Is it me or is this dispute getting increasingly bitter? Can something be done to nip it in the bud before it degenerated into mindless move warring?--RDBury (talk) 22:05, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yes. We need to find out what the community thinks these should be named!
- I've started a straw poll at Wikipedia talk:Outlines#Should articles named "Outline of x" be renamed to "List of x topics"?
- The Transhumanist 04:08, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- Lee∴V has created a new thread that breaks down some of the core issues, also on Wikipedia talk:Outlines. Hopefully this will put the debate on more of a rational basis.--RDBury (talk) 13:01, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
RF - more eyes needed please
Should the current "guideline" page be removed so it can be replaced with a proposed policy page and what weight should be given to the only community-wide request for comment?
At part of the core issue is we have a proposed "guideline" page which attempts to overview current practices and a proposed policy page which seems to want to take a more aggressive tone on the issue. Can two pages be developed in tandem? More eyes would be appreciated. -- Banjeboi 01:19, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Non-free Image license
I'm having some difficulty resolving an image license for File:StarAirServiceIreneIrvine.jpg. Currently, it's licensed as a non-free image with an OTRS pending ticket. My question is whether the picture which is currently licensed as non-free needs to be released under a free license in order to stay on wikipedia. Does the image qualify as a non-free image?
The following is discussion from my talk page...
I have rec'd a series of emails from Permissions regarding my File:StarAirServiceIreneIrvine.jpg photo. Brief history - I obtained written permission for use of photo from owner (Univ of AK Fairbanks) & uploaded the pic to Wikipedia (NOT Commons) per your directions. ww2censor promptly marked it for removal requesting an email from owner (see my talk page). I rqst'd email from Univ of AK Fairbanks which they sent to me w/ copy to permissions. We thought this resolved the issue but then the emails from permissions to me started. If you like I can email you the complete series of emails, but following is the latest which describes the issue, which I don't know how to resolve:
[Ticket#2009101010027301] Authorization to use photo in a single Wikipedia article The email you have sent us regarding permissions reads (this is the email Univ of AK Fairbanks sent to permissions at my (OLD33) request:
"We don't have a signed agreement of use on file for you but that is standard when a photo is copied from Alaska's Digital Archive [on-line archive: vilda.alaska.edu], rather than being purchased from us. You checked with us before going on-line with your article, requesting permission to use the image. That permission was granted. You appropriately credit the collection and the institution, and acknowledge copyright. This meets the requirements for using photographs."
Images and other media are allowed only if they are under a free license (such as the above and certain other Creative Commons licenses). You can see the allowable licenses at <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_copyright_tags/Free_licenses>. If you provide us with a clear statement that the copyright holder is releasing this content for redistribution under an allowable license, then the content may be used on Wikimedia projects. The email template at <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CONSENT> can be used if needed. It is essential for Wikipedia that an exact license is agreed upon by the copyright holder which in this case may be the Alaskan Digital Archives but appears to be 'verso' which the archives state is the author of the image. Any ambivalence on this point is not acceptable. We sincerely apologize for any frustration caused by this. However, Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons respects the rights of copyright holders and has very stringent measures put in place to protect their rights. Please be assured that nothing will happen to the photo as long as the OTRS pending tag is on the page. Thank you for your understanding! Please see <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights> for more information. Yours sincerely, Elena Salvatore
I will appreciate your help!! Old33 (talk) 15:08, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- Well, considering that the image is being used as a non-free image, a free license may not be needed. What Elana is trying to point out is that the University didn't release the image under a free license.However, the image is currently licensed as non-free so I don't see it requires a free license. I will ask at WP:VPP what to do...but from what I see, you should point out that the image is currently licensed to be non-free, and that the point is to keep the image on wikipedia without requesting more permission. I personally don't really "approve" of the tone used at the end of the email...its a bit too cold....I will help you get this resolved once and for all.Smallman12q (talk) 00:35, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Any advice is appreciated!Smallman12q (talk) 00:40, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- Wait for the OTRS ticket to go through. Presumably it will result in explicit permission to use the image on Wikipedia. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 13:43, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- Remember that permission for use "on Wikipedia" is still non-free, though it's certainly a more justifiable non-free than most (and the permission for Wikipedia itself can use OTRS confirmation). Images are only free if re-use elsewhere is also free. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 14:57, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- Did you read the quote...OTRS responded by requesting that the image be licensed under a free license. However, I don't see a need for it to be licensed under a free license if all we need is {{non-free with permission}}.Smallman12q (talk) 13:45, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Because "non-free with permission" is still non-free and so the usage has to satisfy WP:NFCC - which the usage at Star Air Service does not. Consequently, if the photo is not released under a free licence then it will deleted. CIreland (talk) 13:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Related no longer marked as a guideline
Wikipedia:Related ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Kosovo-related articles) ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft/Naming no longer marked as a guideline
Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft/Naming ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- Why are these things showing up here? There have been no recent edits to change their status. 99.166.95.142 (talk) 19:07, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft/Naming transcludes Wikipedia:Naming conventions (aircraft), and that page was recently edited to put {{Wikipedia subcat guideline}} inside a , which means that Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft/Naming is no longer in Category:Wikipedia naming conventions. Anomie⚔ 19:29, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Carl Mayer/Carl Meyer
I didn't know how to spell the man's name, so I decided to help others who might want to find it.
What's the proper hatnote for the top of Carl Meyer? Because there are two different disambiguation pages for two different spellings of the name.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 21:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- {{distinguish|Carl Mayer (disambiguation)}}, since it is an alternative spelling rather than an ambiguous name.. Shereth 21:48, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Done. Thanks.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 21:57, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (UK counties) has been marked as a guideline
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (UK counties) ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject/Naming convention no longer marked as a guideline
Wikipedia:WikiProject/Naming convention ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (settlements)/Counties no longer marked as a guideline
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (settlements)/Counties ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:01, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
There was an RfC here which I closed as consensus to make this change. This closure was then questioned both by reversion and comments here. Following an ANI thread I was advised to bring it here to get an independent view. Dpmuk (talk) 16:35, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Consensus in the RFC is obviously for option #1. It seems User:Francis Schonken is niggling over a minor issue of wording, but instead of actually discussing the matter is just reverting and making unhelpful assertions (boiling down to "You're wrong!" without any details), and expecting you to read his mind to come up with an "acceptable" wording. Perhaps a slightly better wording would be "It is possible to create two non-redirect pages with the same name but different capitalization, and generally acceptable when the pages are on different topics. If this arises, a hat note should always be placed at the top of both pages, linking either to a dedicated disambiguation page or to the other article." And if Francis doesn't like that, IMO it is up to him to make a suggestion rather than continuing to revert. Anomie⚔ 17:21, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Football v. soccer (again)
I'm sure this topic has been beaten to death, but the use of the word "football" to mean "soccer" on first reference on the Main Page today is gnawing at me. Now based strictly on Wikipedia:MOS#Opportunities_for_commonality, the term used, especially on first reference, should be the term that is unambiguous and common to all varieties of English: "soccer." Now many British patrons of the sperical-ball sport cringe at that word, so the awkward compromise term "football (soccer)" was created. Editors of pointyball articles always use "American football" on first reference. The standard should be the same for soccer articles. The soccer people might say the meaning is clear from the context, but that's only the case if you're used to seeing the word football meaning the round-ball game; if you're from a pointyball-playing place, it would certainly make you do a double-take. And if we accept the argument that the meaning of "football" should be clear from the context in this case, why shouldn't pointy-ball editors use "football" by itself on first reference in one of their articles? Wikipedia style should state that either "soccer," "football (soccer)" or "American football" should always be the first-reference term. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:28, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm American, and the code of football played by a "German football goalkeeper" seems contextually obvious to me (and is linked for the benefit of others). It certainly wouldn't be appropriate to use the term "soccer" in reference to a country in which the sport is known as "Fußball" (football). —David Levy 23:47, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Why not? This is English-language WP; how the Germans call it is irrelevant. --Trovatore (talk) 23:51, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- This isn't the American-language WP either. In English, a German would call the sport football, not soccer. Resolute 23:58, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- How Germans speak, even in English, is irrelevant on en.wiki. --Trovatore (talk) 00:08, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- This is why, for example, the "strong national ties" section of WP:ENGVAR is specifically limited to "English-speaking nations". --Trovatore (talk) 00:11, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- You still haven't overcome the problem of this not being the American language Wikipedia. Also per WP:ENGVAR, we don't change usage without good reason to do so. The article is written in British English, and British English it should stay. Neverminding that his career was strongly tied to England. Resolute 00:18, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- As Mwalcoff pointed out, the American football articles say American football on first reference. There needs to be reciprocity. If there isn't, then the American football articles could also just call it football on first reference, which probably wouldn't really confuse anyone either, and would be consonant with ENGVAR, but not with the truce in the football wars. --Trovatore (talk) 00:37, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- If there is any reciprocity, I suggest "association football" rather than "soccer" or "football (soccer)". I see they've even become sane and renamed the sport's article to that title. Anomie⚔ 00:46, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- As Mwalcoff pointed out, the American football articles say American football on first reference. There needs to be reciprocity. If there isn't, then the American football articles could also just call it football on first reference, which probably wouldn't really confuse anyone either, and would be consonant with ENGVAR, but not with the truce in the football wars. --Trovatore (talk) 00:37, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not citing WP:ENGVAR; I'm saying that it seems illogical to refer to the sport as "soccer" in a German context (despite the fact that "soccer" is the term most familiar to me).
- I agree that "association football" would be the best means of disambiguation, but I don't see "German football goalkeeper" as ambiguous. —David Levy 01:33, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- You still haven't overcome the problem of this not being the American language Wikipedia. Also per WP:ENGVAR, we don't change usage without good reason to do so. The article is written in British English, and British English it should stay. Neverminding that his career was strongly tied to England. Resolute 00:18, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- This isn't the American-language WP either. In English, a German would call the sport football, not soccer. Resolute 23:58, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Why not? This is English-language WP; how the Germans call it is irrelevant. --Trovatore (talk) 23:51, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- As to the original complaint, as noted, even we in countries where handegg has primacy, it is very much obvious that this article refers to association football. If a TFA came up on an American/Canadian/Australian football player that was similarly worded, with "football" linking to the appropriate code, everyone would still understand what the word is referring to. Resolute 00:00, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- I would think it good practice to use some sort of disambiguation on first occurrence (as in done in American football articles). Us Americans can be pretty ignorant about what other countries call "soccer" (partially because we don't follow the sport all that much). While I personally am not confused by what 'German football player' means, I am quite sure that some readers will be (at least for a little while). The association football suggestion is a good one. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:59, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- The problem with "association football" is a lot of people don't know what that means, even though it's the "official" name of the sport. It's not a term in everyday use. Our goal should be to produce clear and easy-to-read text. There are two options that fit that goal -- "soccer" or "football (soccer)." -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:03, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Well, a lot of people don't understand a lot of things on WP. We write, and should write, in a very high register, Britannica rather than World Book (obviously I'm not talking about the ENGVAR differences here, but rather about the eliteness). The wikilinks help readers learn the acrolect, and that's a good thing in itself. --Trovatore (talk) 01:09, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- I wholeheartedly disagree with you on that one. I think we should absolutely write in "World Book" style to make Wikipedia as accessible to as many people as possible. Readers should not be expected to go on a wild goose chase through wikilinks to understand articles. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:13, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- This is English Wikipedia, not Simple English Wikipedia. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 09:00, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- I wholeheartedly disagree with you on that one. I think we should absolutely write in "World Book" style to make Wikipedia as accessible to as many people as possible. Readers should not be expected to go on a wild goose chase through wikilinks to understand articles. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:13, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Well, a lot of people don't understand a lot of things on WP. We write, and should write, in a very high register, Britannica rather than World Book (obviously I'm not talking about the ENGVAR differences here, but rather about the eliteness). The wikilinks help readers learn the acrolect, and that's a good thing in itself. --Trovatore (talk) 01:09, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- The problem with "association football" is a lot of people don't know what that means, even though it's the "official" name of the sport. It's not a term in everyday use. Our goal should be to produce clear and easy-to-read text. There are two options that fit that goal -- "soccer" or "football (soccer)." -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:03, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- False dichotomy, and one slanted considerably towards North American thinking rather than world thinking. Resolute 01:38, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed. It doesn't even begin to address the use of rounded oblate spheroids. — Gavia immer (talk) 02:36, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- If there is a risk that occasionally an American English speaker would not understand an article about a footballer, surely the easiest practical response is to link either the sport or the position they play. Use of American English in an article written in another variant of the language should be restricted to direct quotations. Of course a broader solution would be to change EN Wiki so that users could choose which dialect of English they wish to view it in. ϢereSpielChequers 08:32, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- But association football is not particularly American English. (For that matter, neither is soccer, but that's arguably a colloquialism in British English and thus not suited to WP.)
- It would be polite and in the interests of good relations to call it association football at first reference, given that American football articles almost always start by calling their sport American football. For the rest of the article, just football is fine. --Trovatore (talk) 10:31, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Whether it would be "polite and in the interest of good relations" to put Association Football in football related articles,it would be a major change to our policy on varieties of English. Currently we support all varieties of English provided we are consistent within an article and don't change articles between variants, a football related article written by a Brit is not likely to refer to football as Association football. I would be happy with a change to that policy so that readers could specify what variant of the language they want displayed, so Americans would see Football displayed as Soccer and Brits would see it displayed as Football. But I would not be happy with a change to the policy along the lines of "Articles written in variants of English other than American English must use terms understandable in American English and may not use words in ways that differ from their American English meaning. ϢereSpielChequers 10:59, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- We do already have WP:ENGVAR#Opportunities for commonality, which in part states that we should avoid or gloss terminology with different meanings in different varieties of English. Anomie⚔ 11:43, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Whether it would be "polite and in the interest of good relations" to put Association Football in football related articles,it would be a major change to our policy on varieties of English. Currently we support all varieties of English provided we are consistent within an article and don't change articles between variants, a football related article written by a Brit is not likely to refer to football as Association football. I would be happy with a change to that policy so that readers could specify what variant of the language they want displayed, so Americans would see Football displayed as Soccer and Brits would see it displayed as Football. But I would not be happy with a change to the policy along the lines of "Articles written in variants of English other than American English must use terms understandable in American English and may not use words in ways that differ from their American English meaning. ϢereSpielChequers 10:59, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- If there is a risk that occasionally an American English speaker would not understand an article about a footballer, surely the easiest practical response is to link either the sport or the position they play. Use of American English in an article written in another variant of the language should be restricted to direct quotations. Of course a broader solution would be to change EN Wiki so that users could choose which dialect of English they wish to view it in. ϢereSpielChequers 08:32, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed. It doesn't even begin to address the use of rounded oblate spheroids. — Gavia immer (talk) 02:36, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- False dichotomy, and one slanted considerably towards North American thinking rather than world thinking. Resolute 01:38, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
(undent) The in-article disambiguation of "American Football" vs. "Association Football" is helpful to the reader the first time the term "football" is used, but I agree that sometimes it's painfully obvious from context (i.e. in a picture caption of a biography's subject in uniform) and need not be explained. It should probably be wiki-pipe-linked the first time it's mentioned in an article as a confusion-killer of last resort. SDY (talk) 15:53, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/CheckUser and Oversight has been marked as a policy
Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/CheckUser and Oversight ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as a policy. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:CheckUser has been marked as a policy
Wikipedia:CheckUser ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as a policy. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Deletion of articles on living persons has been marked as a policy
Wikipedia:Deletion of articles on living persons ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as a policy. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
"Comparison of" articles
Recently there as been a series of "Comparison of" articles sent to WP:AFD. Now some of this seems to be a bee in the bonnet of one particular editor, but on the other hand I see these tending to fall into one of two classes:
- They are lists of items in a category. So far this seems to be the more common type.
- They are essays on two more or less related subjects.
I think it would easier on everyone's namespace to insist that the first type prefer the "List of" rather than "Comparison of" convention. We have plenty of tabular lists and I'm also seeing some probably inadvertent content forking due to the two naming possibilities.
The second type is the one that I think will be controversial, but I do think we need to deprecate this type of article. The problem I see is that these almost invariably have original research and notability issues. The first is more obvious: it seems to me that the argument is coming from the author(s) not from some external authority; they tend to read like research papers, well-cited or not. The second is a more subtle problem, but it seems to me that in most of the non-list cases I've come across it's not been all that clear that anyone beyond the author really cares about the comparison being made. I mean, you could write an article named Comparison of Beowulf and Gilgamesh, and it can be heavily cited; but what you will get is someone's term paper.
I think at least we need some sort of guideline discussion about this, similar that which one assumes has already been done for lists. Mangoe (talk) 14:31, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm also very suspicious of these types of articles, as I expressed recently at Comparison of wiki farms. The solution there was to transwiki the content to some other projects which are a little less strict about OR, since the consensus was that the content was not "bad" but there wasn't much agreement about what was appropriate for wikipedia. These appear to neatly fit within the expectations of WP:NOR, and I don't think a formal guideline is necessary from a WP:CREEP standpoint, and a sensible application of existing rules is all that is needed. There are, in my mind, also WP:NPOV concerns with any "comparison" article. SDY (talk) 15:31, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Agree on the WP:CREEP standpoint. While certainly something to note, one can imagine possibilities where comparisons should be included, specifically where that comparison has been verifiably covered. Just because something has "comparison" in the title doesn't make it bad (Comparison of video codecs and Comparison of audio codecs) and likewise a title absent "comparison" doesn't make it okay. Because there's no bright line there, I kind of like the AfD approach, since it examines each subject on its own merit. OR can be dealt with by replacing it with sourced content. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 15:55, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Just as a general statement, though, I'd much prefer to see these articles titled "list of" rather than "comparison of." The intent of the article is not to advise the reader on their choices, simply to inform them what the choices are. I was especially concerned about this for the wikifarm article, since the Wikimedia foundation has skin in the game and any sense that a Wikipedia article was endorsing a foundation product would be very very naughty. SDY (talk) 16:10, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia currently has the process pages for Help:Merge and WP:Split, but no clear guideline in place to ensure that contributors understand the attribution requirements for reusing text within Wikipedia. It is brushed on at WP:C, but not clear, and I believe that expanding its coverage there would muddy the waters of that policy's primary purpose. I would like to propose this new guideline to govern Help:Merge and WP:Split and to which contributors may easily be pointed when they inadvertently violate copyright by failing to attribute (and this happens all the time). Feedback and assistance at that talk page in reaching consensus would be very much appreciated. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 15:09, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- It might be nice to also discuss requirements for interlanguage/interwiki copies from other Wikimedia sites. (For example, best practices for attributing translated text from another Wikipedia.) TheFeds 19:23, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
book's table of contents useable or CV?
Is it permissible to place the table of contents of a book in an article about that book or is that a CV? RJFJR (talk) 16:15, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- If you mean is it a copyright violation (WP:CV), then I think a table of contents is a small enough portion of a work to be considered fair use. However, in my opinion, dumping a table of contents into an article strays into WP:INDISCRIMINATE. It would be better to provide a prose summary of what the book contains. --RL0919 (talk) 16:28, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Use of USFWS logo
U.S.C. Title 18, Part I, Chapter 33, § 701 provides fines and up to six months' imprisonment for unauthorized use of US gov't insignias. The USFWS website's "Digital Rights, Copyright, Trademark, Patent Laws" notice page, citing restrictions published in the Federal Register (Vol. 49, No. 30, page 5387), says that any use without permission is prohibited and that the logo may appear only on official FWS documents (and that §701 provides for enforcement). Nevertheless, the USWFS logo is widely used on WP and other WM projects (the Commons image file page includes an explanation of the restrictions on use). Should it be?
I understand this is not a copyright issue as the Service logo is in the public domain. But Wikipedia:Logos#U.S._government_agencies states that "[u]se restrictions of such logos must be followed and permission obtained before use." Should it be removed, for example, from Commons:Template:PD-USGov-FWS and Commons:Template:FWS Image (which I created)? --Rrburke(talk) 16:25, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- If you want the One True Answer as far as Wikimedia is concerned, you'll have to ask Mike Godwin. Anomie⚔ 19:14, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- ^ FI - Species fact sheets. Fisheries and Aquaculture Department, Food and Agriculture Organization.
- ^ FI - Species fact sheets. Fisheries and Aquaculture Department, Food and Agriculture Organization.