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::::Agree. It is rather a primary source about the thoughts of a mid-19th-century historian. [[User:Borsoka|Borsoka]] ([[User talk:Borsoka|talk]]) 12:40, 22 May 2018 (UTC) |
::::Agree. It is rather a primary source about the thoughts of a mid-19th-century historian. [[User:Borsoka|Borsoka]] ([[User talk:Borsoka|talk]]) 12:40, 22 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::::Agree. And a secondary source would be necessary to show that this historian's opinion has any relevance. [[User:Jytdog|Jytdog]] ([[User talk:Jytdog|talk]]) 03:27, 23 May 2018 (UTC) |
::::Agree. And a secondary source would be necessary to show that this historian's opinion has any relevance. [[User:Jytdog|Jytdog]] ([[User talk:Jytdog|talk]]) 03:27, 23 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::No problem, secondary source showing that this historian's opinion still has relevance will be used instead.--[[User:Iovaniorgovan|Iovaniorgovan]] ([[User talk:Iovaniorgovan|talk]]) 07:08, 23 May 2018 (UTC) |
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== Cautionary note on [[Simon and Schuster]] who I've discovered also publish woowoo material == |
== Cautionary note on [[Simon and Schuster]] who I've discovered also publish woowoo material == |
Revision as of 07:08, 23 May 2018
Welcome — ask about reliability of sources in context! | |||||||||
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"By the media" qualification
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In this sentence from AR-15 style rifle, does the phrase "widely characterized as the weapon of choice for perpetrators of these crimes" need to be attributed with a qualifier such as "by the media" or "in the media"?
While most gun killings in the United States are with handguns,[1][2][3] AR-15 style rifles have played "an oversized role in many of the most high-profile"[1] mass shootings in the United States, and have come to be widely characterized by the media as the weapon of choice for perpetrators of these crimes.[4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12] AR-15 variants have been used in mass shootings in the United States including the 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, 2012 Aurora shooting, 2015 San Bernardino attack,[13] the 2017 Sutherland Springs church shooting,[14] the 2017 Las Vegas shooting,[14] and the 2018 Stoneman Douglas High School shooting.[15]
References
- ^ a b "In Many U.S. States, 18 Is Old Enough to Buy a Semiautomatic". CBS News. The Associated Press. February 16, 2018. Retrieved February 19, 2018.
On average, more than 13,000 people are killed each year in the United States by guns, and most of those incidents involve handguns while a tiny fraction involve an AR-style firearm. Still, the AR plays an oversized role in many of the most high-profile shootings...
- ^ "Expanded Homicide Data Table 4". 2016 Crime in the United States. Federal Bureau of Investigation. Retrieved 2018-02-26.
- ^ Balko, Radley (2013-07-09). Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces. PublicAffairs. ISBN 9781610392129.
- ^ Smith, Aaron (June 21, 2016). "Why the AR-15 is the mass shooter's go-to weapon". CNN. Retrieved February 15, 2018.
The AR-15, the type of rifle used in the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history, is the weapon of choice for mass killers.
- ^ Picchi, Aimee (June 15, 2016). "America's rifle: The marketing of assault-style weapons". CBS MoneyWatch. CBS News. Retrieved February 23, 2018.
America has grown accustomed to military-style semi-automatic weapons such as the AR-15. It's not hard to see why: These firearms have been heavily marketed to gun owners. But at the same time, they're often the weapons of choice for mass murderers.
- ^ Zhang, Sarah (June 17, 2016). "What an AR-15 Can Do to the Human Body". Wired. Retrieved March 3, 2018.
The AR-15 is America's most popular rifle. It has also been the weapon of choice in mass shootings from Sandy Hook to Aurora to San Bernardino.
- ^ Williams, Joseph P. (November 7, 2017). "How the AR-15 Became One of the Most Popular Guns in America, A brief history of the guns that have become the weapons of choice for mass shootings". U.S. News & World Report. Retrieved February 15, 2018.
They're lightweight, relatively cheap and extremely lethal, inspired by Nazi infantrymen on the Eastern Front during World War II. They're so user-friendly some retailers recommend them for children, yet their design is so aggressive one marketer compared them to carrying a "man card" -- although ladies who dare can get theirs in pink. And if the last few mass shootings are any indication, guns modeled after the AR-15 assault rifle -- arguably the most popular, most enduring and most profitable firearm in the U.S. -- have become the weapon of choice for unstable, homicidal men who want to kill a lot of people very, very quickly.
- ^ Jansen, Bart; Cummings, William (November 6, 2017). "Why mass shooters are increasingly using AR-15s". USA Today. Retrieved February 15, 2018.
AR-15 style rifles have been the weapon of choice in many recent mass shootings, including the Texas church shooting Sunday, the Las Vegas concert last month, the Orlando nightclub last year and Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2012.
- ^ Oppel Jr., Richard A. (February 15, 2018). "In Florida, an AR-15 Is Easier to Buy Than a Handgun". The New York Times. Retrieved February 15, 2018.
The N.R.A. calls the AR-15 the most popular rifle in America. The carnage in Florida on Wednesday that left at least 17 dead seemed to confirm that the rifle and its variants have also become the weapons of choice for mass killers.
- ^ Lloyd, Whitney (February 16, 2018). "Why AR-15-style rifles are popular among mass shooters". ABC News. Retrieved March 2, 2018.
AR-15-style rifles have become something of a weapon of choice for mass shooters.
- ^ Beckett, Lois (February 16, 2018). "Most Americans can buy an AR-15 rifle before they can buy beer". The Guardian. Retrieved March 2, 2018.
While AR-15 style rifles have become the weapon of choice for some of America's most recent and deadly mass shootings, these military-style guns are still comparatively rarely used in everyday gun violence.
- ^ Samis, Max (April 22, 2018). "Brady Campaign Responds to Developments in Nashville Waffle House Shooting". Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. Retrieved May 4, 2018.
Kris Brown, co-president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, stated, 'It adds insult to the literal injuries and loss of life suffered by today's victims that even though the killer was known to be too dangerous to have guns, his father chose to rearm him including, reportedly, with the AR-15 used this morning, a weapon of war that now happens to be the weapon of choice in far too many mass killings in America.'
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
NYT 13 June 2016
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ a b "Why the AR-15 keeps appearing at America's deadliest mass shootings". USA Today. Retrieved 22 February 2018.
- ^ Shapiro, Emily (February 14, 2018). "At least 17 dead in 'horrific' Florida school shooting, suspect had 'countless magazines'". ABC News. Archived from the original on February 15, 2018. Retrieved February 15, 2018.
{{cite news}}
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Relevant talk page discussions: [1] (Active), [2] [3]
Discussion
- I would say not, is it only characterized as such by the media? Here is a clue, one of the sources is not a media organisation.Slatersteven (talk) 15:16, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
- Per the sources provided, the label "weapon of choice" is applied by the media and by gun control groups that advocate bans related to such weapons. The label is not applied by experts such as criminologists nor sources such as the FBI. As a contentious label the best solution would be to sidestep the issue and avoid it per wp:label. It's use isn't encyclopedic and replacing with a less contentious label doesn't negatively impact the article. Springee (talk) 16:37, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
- The exact words in the reference given from there claimed experts were "In some mass shootings", don't see how you could assert "weapon of choice" from that. This distction is only stated by the media. -72bikers (talk) 19:27, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
- Do the FBI or criminologists not say this, sources. And we are not saying this is a fact, we are saying it is an opinion.Slatersteven (talk) 16:45, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
- If the FBI or criminologists dispute this characterization, find some reliable sources that say so and add that to the article. As for gun control groups, they are of course rather well-informed on the use of guns in crimes. Waleswatcher (talk) 19:20, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
- Wait what, are you asking that we find a expert that contradicts your non-existing expert support? -72bikers (talk) 19:41, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
- Found it, its in your chosen expert support reference that clearly states "In some mass shootings". -72bikers (talk) 19:41, 6 May 2018 (UTC)]
- "The label is not applied by experts such as criminologists nor sources such as the FBI."that is what we are asking for a source to back up.Slatersteven (talk) 19:43, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
- Ohh and according to other sources "is the weapon of choice for mass killers.", so lets not pretend they all say the same thing. This is about RS, RS use the term "is the weapon of choice for mass killers." (or variants of). This is not the NPOV or Fringe notice board. RS say it so we can say RS say it.Slatersteven (talk) 19:46, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
- Found it, its in your chosen expert support reference that clearly states "In some mass shootings". -72bikers (talk) 19:41, 6 May 2018 (UTC)]
- Wait what, are you asking that we find a expert that contradicts your non-existing expert support? -72bikers (talk) 19:41, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
- Adding "by the media" violates NPOV in this context, because in this context "the media" have been presented as an enemy of guns and as biased against them. Furthermore, I cannot think of any way to establish that something has been "widely characterized" in some way other than by referencing articles in the media that make that characterization - so there is no need to say "by the media", especially considering the sources are listed right there. Lastly, the implication here is that "the media" is making something up on its own rather than reporting facts or the opinions of sources. Media articles are considered per wikipedia policy as reliable secondary sources. Treating these sources otherwise violates WP policy. Waleswatcher (talk) 19:16, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
- Adding "by the media" is redundant and unnecessary. Also, it's wrong; see this piece that's marshalling arguments in favor of your local police department buying some, precisely because this class of rifle is the "weapon of choice" (who are aiming at law enforcement as well as civilians). This article draws a distinction between terrorist attacks and fatal ones, and the significantly increased chance of dying means that these high-power rifles are responsible for a higher than average number of deaths (as opposed to injuries). I think, though, that some of the people who are concerned by this statement might want to read weapon of choice (and maybe to link to that article). This characterization is about the iconic nature of the weapon in popular culture, rather than the actual statistical use. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:59, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- This is were careful reading of sources is needed. That source doesn't say AR-15 or mass shooters. Saying by the media is important if the experts in the field don't make the same claim. Again per WP:label we should just side step the issue and drop the label. Springee (talk) 10:12, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- It is not a label. And yes some of the sources do say it. "AR-15-style rifles have become something of a weapon of choice for mass shooters."Slatersteven (talk) 10:18, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for making the point. In the quoted sentence "weapon of choice" is a label and it is used as such in the article. Also, as was me≈ntioned before it's not the experts but the reporters who are applying the label as in your sentence. Springee (talk) 10:44, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- No it is not, they did not say" AR-15 weapon of choice" they say "has become something of a". They are not using it as a label. Also it is not only the media, it is just that they (rather then blogs or oped pieces) are RS.Slatersteven (talk) 10:59, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- Repeating that it isn't a label doesn't make it not a label. Also, the media is a RS for reporting, not assigning labels that aren't supported by experts in the field. Springee (talk) 11:29, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- We are not assigning it a label, we are calling it an opinion (well characterization). This thread is now all over the place, what are we talking about? And is not about RS, but weight and POV. I can see no point to this, so can this now be closed.Slatersteven (talk) 11:53, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- Repeating that it isn't a label doesn't make it not a label. Also, the media is a RS for reporting, not assigning labels that aren't supported by experts in the field. Springee (talk) 11:29, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- No it is not, they did not say" AR-15 weapon of choice" they say "has become something of a". They are not using it as a label. Also it is not only the media, it is just that they (rather then blogs or oped pieces) are RS.Slatersteven (talk) 10:59, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for making the point. In the quoted sentence "weapon of choice" is a label and it is used as such in the article. Also, as was me≈ntioned before it's not the experts but the reporters who are applying the label as in your sentence. Springee (talk) 10:44, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- It is not a label. And yes some of the sources do say it. "AR-15-style rifles have become something of a weapon of choice for mass shooters."Slatersteven (talk) 10:18, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- This is were careful reading of sources is needed. That source doesn't say AR-15 or mass shooters. Saying by the media is important if the experts in the field don't make the same claim. Again per WP:label we should just side step the issue and drop the label. Springee (talk) 10:12, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- We have a number of reliable sources that have analyzed the facts and made a statement, and a number of Wikipedia editors who have done their own analysis and come to a different conclusion than the RS. In this case the RS analysis would have priority. "By the media" is an unnecessary qualifier and seems to be an attempt to discredit the statement. –dlthewave ☎ 22:48, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- We also have RS that disagree. Furthermore, it is reasonable to question if those sources are reliable for the label in question. Again we have to note that the experts in the field, the reporters aren't we experts in this area, don't make the claim. The reporters who make the claim are typically advocating thus acting as opinion writers or citing what others have said. The best way to deal with this is sidestep the issue by removing the controversial label. Springee (talk) 23:06, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- And thus we would include the rebuttal (assuming we do not, and have they actually denied it is a widely held view), not that any RS have been represented here.Slatersteven (talk) 07:22, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
- We have reliable sources that disagree that AR-15s are widely characterized that way? Really? As for whether major media outlets are RS, of course they are. In questioning that you're either engaging in OR ("Normally they would be, but in this case...") or just going against wiki policy. Waleswatcher (talk) 10:18, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry, this discussion is occurring both here and on the article talk page. Anyway, the label is contentious and this shouldn't be used. It's inaccurate as RSs have illustrated. It is applied rather indiscriminately both to "assault weapons" (a very nebulous term that can include things like Olympic target pistols) and to the AR-15 (typically but not always a subset of "assault weapons" depending on definition). Yes, we have shown that a number of non-experts have applied the label. We also have similar quality sources saying the label is wrong (and offering rational to boot). I'm proposing that we just dump the label. Springee (talk) 11:11, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
- I concur that the label should not be used. It was only shown to be used by the media, that was not shown to be a quote by any expert. Also sources were shown to dispute this lable. In fact the expert they had put forth clearly only stated "In some mass shootings". So making this claim is misleading the readers, especially without any context. -72bikers (talk) 16:44, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
"We also have RS that disagree."
Well, post them? This is WP:RSN, so evaluating the relative worth of your sources vs. the ones above is probably the best way to go about it. And you do have to produce them - my feeling is that if we have a lot of WP:RSes saying something, and no reliable sources contradicting them, we can just report it as fact; rewriting it to imply that it is somehow dubious would be editorializing on our part, and omitting it is clearly not an option when it is so well-source. But if you have sources specifically disputing that description, we can cover those as well, and we can use those sources to outline the locus of the dispute. Looking over your comments above, though, you've repeatedly asserted that it's controversial, but haven't presented the sources you say support that interpretation, while we seem to have a huge number of mainstream, high-quality reliable sources using the term with no indication that it is controversial or disputed. Based on those, we have to similarly treat it as an uncontroversial statement of fact unless you can produce some similar high-quality mainstream WP:RS sources either disputing it or, at the very least, describing such a dispute. (If all you can find is some less mainstream sources, they could still be included, but it would have to be worded along the lines of "this is the general way it is described, which these people dissent from, saying [other position]." Blogs and opinion pieces, though, obviously wouldn't be enough when most of the sources here are mainstream news coverage that we can cite for statements of fact.) --Aquillion (talk) 22:12, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
- Please refer to the article talk page where the discussion continued Springee (talk) 22:38, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
- I would ask that we keep the discussion on this page. I brought this to RSN to solicit wider input and it's confusing to move it back to article talk mid-thread. –dlthewave☎ 04:16, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Since we are working on proposed solution on the talk page the primary discussion is occurring there. This discussion isn't getting outside eyes so let's put our efforts into a compromise solution. Springee (talk) 10:25, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- But the question of whether the sources you say indicate that the term is controversial are reliable is of central importance; so I'm confused why you keep vaguely alluding to them here without specifically presenting them so we can get additional eyes judging whether they're good enough. (After reading the talk page, I think I know what sources you want to use and I think they obviously don't pass WP:RS for what you're trying to say.) --Aquillion (talk) 06:37, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- Since we are working on proposed solution on the talk page the primary discussion is occurring there. This discussion isn't getting outside eyes so let's put our efforts into a compromise solution. Springee (talk) 10:25, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- I would ask that we keep the discussion on this page. I brought this to RSN to solicit wider input and it's confusing to move it back to article talk mid-thread. –dlthewave☎ 04:16, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Do not attribute to the media -- sufficient sources to substantiate this characterisation. Here's another one: How the AK-47 and AR-15 Evolved Into Rifles of Choice for Mass Shootings, NY Times, by C.J. Chivers. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:18, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- The NYT has a strong anti-2nd A bias. Regardless, the characterization is clearly disputed by a number of sources Reason (more than once), Washpost[[4]], National Review [[5]], simple stats [[6]], WashPost again but in a more round about way (9mm semiautomatic handguns show up more than any other weapon) [[7]], Washington Examiner, specifically noting "media hype about mass shootings" stating handguns, not 'assault rifles' used most [[8]]. Basically many sources repeat the claim but we can not take it as reliable and uncontested. Furthermore, we need to remember that it isn't an expert in the area that is making the claim, it's reporters. I've proposed a compromise solution on at the article talk page. We keep don't state who is making the label claim but rather we follow the claim with a sentence stating the claim is disputed by others. That way the reader can understand this isn't a universally accepted claim. Springee (talk) 00:35, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
The NYT has a strong anti-2nd A bias
- ?? Regardless, the WaPo piece by Michael S. Rosenwald is out of date: June 16, 2016 was before Parkland, Waffle House shooting, Las Vegas, etc. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:00, 9 May 2018 (UTC)- Yes, the NYT has an anti gun bias. Here is one example [[9]], [[10]]. The WP article is in agreement with the other newer articles. Furthermore, the reason why the many sources disagree with the "weapon of choice" claim is consistent, the numbers don't support the claim. Are you saying that has changed in the last two years? Do you have data to support that? So if 2016 is out of date what is the cut off? Do we exclude sources that support the claim if they aren't 2017 or later? Springee (talk) 02:18, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- The data sources in the first WaPo link (the only RS - it's beyond me why editors bring a bunch of op-eds and non-RS to these discussions) is a CSR overview of the period 1999-2013 (and it's unclear whether AR-15 usage changed over the period) and a study from 2012 which refers to the period 1982-2012 (it's unclear in the study whether AR-15 changed over the period - the author relies on Mother Jones data). Most of the RS cited for the contested 'weapon of choice' refer to this as a recent phenomena, so the CSR overview and the 2012 study that are cited in that WaPo piece aren't really on-point. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 04:48, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Based on what other than your opinion? Conversely, why aren't the claims of "weapon of choice" also opinion, except in cases were the reporter is effectively saying it was the weapon used. Springee (talk) 10:25, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- You're saying that RS contradict the assessment of RS that the AR-15 is a weapon of choice in recent mass shooting. The RS that you cited don't contradict that, and I explained why. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:16, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Based on what other than your opinion? Conversely, why aren't the claims of "weapon of choice" also opinion, except in cases were the reporter is effectively saying it was the weapon used. Springee (talk) 10:25, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- The data sources in the first WaPo link (the only RS - it's beyond me why editors bring a bunch of op-eds and non-RS to these discussions) is a CSR overview of the period 1999-2013 (and it's unclear whether AR-15 usage changed over the period) and a study from 2012 which refers to the period 1982-2012 (it's unclear in the study whether AR-15 changed over the period - the author relies on Mother Jones data). Most of the RS cited for the contested 'weapon of choice' refer to this as a recent phenomena, so the CSR overview and the 2012 study that are cited in that WaPo piece aren't really on-point. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 04:48, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, the NYT has an anti gun bias. Here is one example [[9]], [[10]]. The WP article is in agreement with the other newer articles. Furthermore, the reason why the many sources disagree with the "weapon of choice" claim is consistent, the numbers don't support the claim. Are you saying that has changed in the last two years? Do you have data to support that? So if 2016 is out of date what is the cut off? Do we exclude sources that support the claim if they aren't 2017 or later? Springee (talk) 02:18, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- The NYT has a strong anti-2nd A bias. Regardless, the characterization is clearly disputed by a number of sources Reason (more than once), Washpost[[4]], National Review [[5]], simple stats [[6]], WashPost again but in a more round about way (9mm semiautomatic handguns show up more than any other weapon) [[7]], Washington Examiner, specifically noting "media hype about mass shootings" stating handguns, not 'assault rifles' used most [[8]]. Basically many sources repeat the claim but we can not take it as reliable and uncontested. Furthermore, we need to remember that it isn't an expert in the area that is making the claim, it's reporters. I've proposed a compromise solution on at the article talk page. We keep don't state who is making the label claim but rather we follow the claim with a sentence stating the claim is disputed by others. That way the reader can understand this isn't a universally accepted claim. Springee (talk) 00:35, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Do not attribute to media - Reporters are experts at reporting, even if they are not experts in the subject area (which in this case also includes fields such as sociology, not just firearms/criminology). The sources provided are highly reputable and unlikely to be rejected as unreliable. If there is another significant viewpoint, we can present it in proportion to its prominence per WP:WEIGHT. –dlthewave ☎ 04:36, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Reporters aren't phycologist, criminologists or otherwise experts in the areas that could soundly make such a claim. It's instead a catchy label. If the label were so sound why aren't we stating it in Wikipedia voice? No we are already attributing just not specifically. Either way, hopefully the compromise texts will solve the problem. Springee (talk) 10:25, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not sure where this assertion that reporters are unreliable because they are non-experts is coming from. We routinely use news reports as sources without vetting the qualifications of the author. We generally consider them competent to describe and characterize these events and topics under the umbrella of an organization that has a strong reputation for fact-checking. –dlthewave ☎ 12:11, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- In this case we have equally qualified sources that say the label is wrong. None of the sources are actually experts in the field, ie criminologists etc. Springee (talk) 12:14, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Do they say it is one made up by the media, or the media and other people?Slatersteven (talk) 12:27, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Did the reporters attribute the phrase to someone they interviewed or another source? Springee (talk) 12:29, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Irrelevant. This is the RS noticeboard, we are here to judge if RS support a statement.Slatersteven (talk) 12:41, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, it's relevant. RSs say the label is wrong so we need to dig a bit deeper to ask who is actually applying the label. Springee (talk) 13:02, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- We do not judge the veracity of an RS's claim. We can (and should) include when a claim is contested. This is all very synthy and ORY, "but they are wrong, there are sources saying so, so we say who said it". No we say "X has said they are wrong". Now are you saying the sources that say "weapon of choice" are not RS if not then that "label" is irrelevant to your question (which was about inclusion of the word media). If your point is can you include the label "media" then you need as RS saying only the media have said this. So what is your point?Slatersteven (talk) 13:21, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, it's relevant. RSs say the label is wrong so we need to dig a bit deeper to ask who is actually applying the label. Springee (talk) 13:02, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Irrelevant. This is the RS noticeboard, we are here to judge if RS support a statement.Slatersteven (talk) 12:41, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Did the reporters attribute the phrase to someone they interviewed or another source? Springee (talk) 12:29, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Do they say it is one made up by the media, or the media and other people?Slatersteven (talk) 12:27, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- In this case we have equally qualified sources that say the label is wrong. None of the sources are actually experts in the field, ie criminologists etc. Springee (talk) 12:14, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not sure where this assertion that reporters are unreliable because they are non-experts is coming from. We routinely use news reports as sources without vetting the qualifications of the author. We generally consider them competent to describe and characterize these events and topics under the umbrella of an organization that has a strong reputation for fact-checking. –dlthewave ☎ 12:11, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Reporters aren't phycologist, criminologists or otherwise experts in the areas that could soundly make such a claim. It's instead a catchy label. If the label were so sound why aren't we stating it in Wikipedia voice? No we are already attributing just not specifically. Either way, hopefully the compromise texts will solve the problem. Springee (talk) 10:25, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
By the media seems to be the most accurate representation of the sources given the lack of expert commentary on the subject. PackMecEng (talk) 13:13, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- We do not attribute claims "to the media", as it is not some huge gestalt entity, do Fox news say this, or Breibant?Slatersteven (talk) 13:21, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- If we are going to bludgeon people with 9 sources making the claim who else would you state it to? I mean we could list each source but that would be silly and since experts are not making the claim it would not be attributed to them. It is clearly a controversial statement with in text attribution being a good idea. PackMecEng (talk) 13:24, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- No one, if a view is that widely held then we do not need to attribute it. What you do is put both sides of the argument. It is really not that hard, especially as at least one of the sources provided in the article talk pages makes it clear it is not just the media (it may not be RS, but that is besides the point). It is not a fact that only the media have made this claim. But as I have said this is not really an RS issue, as no RS have been questioned here (only can someone engage in OR based upon the sources being used). Rather it is a POV question.Slatersteven (talk) 13:30, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- It is widely held by a single group of non-experts so you specify the group and avoids adding POV by giving attribution to them. Not that hard, done all the time in controversial subjects. PackMecEng (talk) 13:38, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Except (as I have said) this is not so, it is not only held by that group.Slatersteven (talk) 13:45, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- And others have disagreed with you on that premise, which I do as well. PackMecEng (talk) 13:56, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- [[11]], now to be fair it just says that "blame mass shootings on "assault weapons" ", but context make it clear what he means by that (weapon of choice, he even goes on to use the term). We have sources that say Weapon of choice in recent or many instances (or for "Grievance Killers"). In may forms that has been said by Gun Control advocates, politicians, the media, and god knows who else. It is simply to widely held an opinion to glibly assign to the media (or to be fair to not have a ore in depth statement about what the sources say, but I am not sure that "as a weapon of choice in many(source) if not all(source) the most recent mass shootings(source) or "grievance shootings (source)" is concise enough really). At the end of the day it is easier to just say what we do.Slatersteven (talk) 14:13, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Interesting blog post, I had not seen it before. Though it makes some of the same points I have been making as well. He mentions what gun control advocates say and counters with it by basically stating why it makes no sense given the statistics. Would you be more comfortable going with gun control advocates instead of by the media? PackMecEng (talk) 14:19, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, as he does not say that, and it is a label (Applied often by opponents of gun legislation). Either we say exactly who said it (according to what sources claim) or we do not label opinions we do not agree with.Slatersteven (talk) 14:26, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Slatersteven, you know, you've argued about this quite a bit (so have I) but at the article we've also been working to side step this issue by offering the opposing view vs for more detailed attribution in the text. Why not help create that language rather than just reiterate points that aren't convincing the other side of the discussion. Again I'm partially to blame since I reply to your comments but I've also proposed two alternate texts to address the issue. You said we should close this, well let's both step away and let it die. Springee (talk) 14:23, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- I agree, I will not respond where again unless addressed specifically, lets let this die.Slatersteven (talk) 14:26, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Interesting blog post, I had not seen it before. Though it makes some of the same points I have been making as well. He mentions what gun control advocates say and counters with it by basically stating why it makes no sense given the statistics. Would you be more comfortable going with gun control advocates instead of by the media? PackMecEng (talk) 14:19, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- [[11]], now to be fair it just says that "blame mass shootings on "assault weapons" ", but context make it clear what he means by that (weapon of choice, he even goes on to use the term). We have sources that say Weapon of choice in recent or many instances (or for "Grievance Killers"). In may forms that has been said by Gun Control advocates, politicians, the media, and god knows who else. It is simply to widely held an opinion to glibly assign to the media (or to be fair to not have a ore in depth statement about what the sources say, but I am not sure that "as a weapon of choice in many(source) if not all(source) the most recent mass shootings(source) or "grievance shootings (source)" is concise enough really). At the end of the day it is easier to just say what we do.Slatersteven (talk) 14:13, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- And others have disagreed with you on that premise, which I do as well. PackMecEng (talk) 13:56, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Except (as I have said) this is not so, it is not only held by that group.Slatersteven (talk) 13:45, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- It is widely held by a single group of non-experts so you specify the group and avoids adding POV by giving attribution to them. Not that hard, done all the time in controversial subjects. PackMecEng (talk) 13:38, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- No one, if a view is that widely held then we do not need to attribute it. What you do is put both sides of the argument. It is really not that hard, especially as at least one of the sources provided in the article talk pages makes it clear it is not just the media (it may not be RS, but that is besides the point). It is not a fact that only the media have made this claim. But as I have said this is not really an RS issue, as no RS have been questioned here (only can someone engage in OR based upon the sources being used). Rather it is a POV question.Slatersteven (talk) 13:30, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- If we are going to bludgeon people with 9 sources making the claim who else would you state it to? I mean we could list each source but that would be silly and since experts are not making the claim it would not be attributed to them. It is clearly a controversial statement with in text attribution being a good idea. PackMecEng (talk) 13:24, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
Avoiding all judgements as to the specific topic entirely, the wording used seems to go beyond WP:NPOV with its use of "While" as an opening.
- "Most gun killings in the United States are with handguns.[1][2][3] "AR-15 style" rifles have been used in a number of mass shootings in the United States including the 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, 2012 Aurora shooting, 2015 San Bernardino attack,[13] the 2017 Sutherland Springs church shooting,[14] the 2017 Las Vegas shooting,[14] and the 2018 Stoneman Douglas High School shooting.[15]
Would seem to avoid the "media" usage entirely, and be concise and accurate reflections of the sources cited. Absent a definition of "AR-15 style", I would think placing the term in quotation marks accurately reflects the sources. This opinion of mine applies uniformly - that concise wording is preferable to argumentative wording in any topic on Wikipedia. Collect (talk) 14:33, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose as written. This wasn't the version that was agreed on at the article. The quote about "widely characterized" is POV. Just because some RS's (some with a POV) make the claim, we can't act like it's a fact. If I can find 10 sources that don't say it, why are they less valuable than 5 that do say it? This notion that just because a RS said it, we must repeat it is nonsense. And how can you include it and not attribute it to the media. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:54, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- You would need sources that explicitly disagree that this is true, not just sources that omit mentioning it. —DIYeditor (talk) 02:06, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- Not really. If 5 sources called Justin Bieber the greatest female vocalist of all time, would we roll with that because there aren't many sources that don't specifically call JB the greatest female vocalist? Niteshift36 (talk) 16:27, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- That is purely a matter of opinion, not something that Wikipedia would state as a fact in its own voice. At the most it would be "Justin Bieber has been widely hailed as..." —DIYeditor (talk) 15:15, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Not really. If 5 sources called Justin Bieber the greatest female vocalist of all time, would we roll with that because there aren't many sources that don't specifically call JB the greatest female vocalist? Niteshift36 (talk) 16:27, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- No attribution necessary if properly worded and reflected by the overwhelming majority of RSs on the topic. An analogous situation would be the Microsoft Windows article saying Windows is generally preferred to other operating systems by computer gamers, or the Manual transmission article saying manual has traditionally been preferred by sports car drivers - I made those examples up but if the media and sources support the claim it is reasonable to say. Opposing views can be given due weight. However, if in the analysis of sources equal or similar weight would have to be given to the opposing views, then attribution would be required. —DIYeditor (talk) 20:49, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
- But it's not used by "the overwhelming majority". Niteshift36 (talk) 16:27, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- Where are the sources that disagree with this purportedly factual information? What is the opposing point of view that deserves due weight? —DIYeditor (talk) 15:15, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- But it's not used by "the overwhelming majority". Niteshift36 (talk) 16:27, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
WikiData source
I don't know where to raise this question, whether this is a VPP issue or here (or even an RfC question (feel free to move/convert if that would be warranted)). Here goes:
IMDB is an external database with a lot of information. We have roughly decided that iMDB is NOT to be used as a reference, as it is generally unreliable information. People can use iMDB to get data, but they are to supply an independent reference according to our referencing rules. iMDB cannot be used as a reference for the material that we source from iMDB.
Similar goes for any external wiki that we use. We may be able to find material that we do not have on, say, es.wikipedia.org, and we can incorporate that information in an article on en.wikipedia, but we cannot say that es.wikipedia is the source. es.wikipedia cannot be used as a reference for the material that we source from es.wikipedia
Even if the specific bit of information that we take from iMDB or es.wikipedia is locally referenced, we should use the information from that reference, not from iMDB or es.wikipedia at face value.
We incorporate data from WikiData (by transclusion, by substituted transclusion, or by copying) in the same way as we could copy material from iMDB and es.wikipedia, which means we incorporate material from an unreliable source. Now my question is: how do we see that with respect to WikiData? --Dirk Beetstra T C 05:14, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
People can use iMDB to get data, but they are to supply an independent reference according to our referencing rules.
So what is the problem with "People can use Wikidata to get data, but they are to supply an independent reference according to our referencing rules"? If we apply the same rules as we do for other Wikipedias, Commons, iMDB, etc. why should the results be any different for Wikidata? --RexxS (talk) 22:11, 16 May 2018 (UTC)- Because, when transcluded, the material is sourced from WikiData, referenced (where needed) to an source which meets our sourcing standards. That reference could be local, or on WikiData. When we take something from es.wikipedia, it is not transcluded but copied, properly reference to the reliable source. Es.wikipedia is not visible in that scenario, and it shouldn’t because it is not a suitable source giving credibility to the correctness of the source. —Dirk Beetstra T C 03:53, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- Nor is Wikidata visible in the scenario of information imported into an infobox, for example. The information is not transcluded, because it's filtered when imported. Checking that the reference meets our sourcing standards is precisely the same operation whether one is checking on es-wiki or on Wikidata. --RexxS (talk) 13:42, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, the information is transcluded, altering it on WikiData changes the value on en.wikipedia, which is not the case when taking the data from es.wikipedia. The data is sourced from WikiData, referenced, with WikiData referenced. If the data is imported it is the same, I am talking about transcluded data. I hope now that other editors will start chiming in, because between the two of uswe are not getting anywhere. Our arguments apparently do not arrive at the other side and we are running in circles. —Dirk Beetstra T C 14:13, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, the information is not transcluded. "Transclusion is generally the inclusion of the content of a document into another document by reference." - mw:Transclusion. There are no documents on Wikidata to transclude. The values are imported from Wikidata and filtered, not passed by reference. When a sourced fact is updated on es-wiki manually or by bot, that update will eventually be made on en-wiki manually or by bot. The difference is merely timescale. If a source is removed from Wikidata as unreliable or inaccurate, the fact it used to support no longer appears in our infobox. That process is very different from transclusion. You are asking others to answer questions based on your faulty understanding of the mechanics of importing sourced content from Wikidata to Wikipedia. We won't get any informed opinions from others while you persist in biasing the questions. --RexxS (talk) 00:46, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- we both have bias here, RexxS. Our main point of disagreement is whether WikiData is a source in this context. —Dirk Beetstra T C 17:44, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, the information is not transcluded. "Transclusion is generally the inclusion of the content of a document into another document by reference." - mw:Transclusion. There are no documents on Wikidata to transclude. The values are imported from Wikidata and filtered, not passed by reference. When a sourced fact is updated on es-wiki manually or by bot, that update will eventually be made on en-wiki manually or by bot. The difference is merely timescale. If a source is removed from Wikidata as unreliable or inaccurate, the fact it used to support no longer appears in our infobox. That process is very different from transclusion. You are asking others to answer questions based on your faulty understanding of the mechanics of importing sourced content from Wikidata to Wikipedia. We won't get any informed opinions from others while you persist in biasing the questions. --RexxS (talk) 00:46, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, the information is transcluded, altering it on WikiData changes the value on en.wikipedia, which is not the case when taking the data from es.wikipedia. The data is sourced from WikiData, referenced, with WikiData referenced. If the data is imported it is the same, I am talking about transcluded data. I hope now that other editors will start chiming in, because between the two of uswe are not getting anywhere. Our arguments apparently do not arrive at the other side and we are running in circles. —Dirk Beetstra T C 14:13, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- Nor is Wikidata visible in the scenario of information imported into an infobox, for example. The information is not transcluded, because it's filtered when imported. Checking that the reference meets our sourcing standards is precisely the same operation whether one is checking on es-wiki or on Wikidata. --RexxS (talk) 13:42, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- Because, when transcluded, the material is sourced from WikiData, referenced (where needed) to an source which meets our sourcing standards. That reference could be local, or on WikiData. When we take something from es.wikipedia, it is not transcluded but copied, properly reference to the reliable source. Es.wikipedia is not visible in that scenario, and it shouldn’t because it is not a suitable source giving credibility to the correctness of the source. —Dirk Beetstra T C 03:53, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- We shouldn't be using WikiData at all IMO, because of the doubtful origin of the information presented there and the frequent inaccuracies. Reyk YO! 07:43, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
Suggestion: WP:CHALLENGE
The above discussion seems confusing: e.g. "source from" vs. "reference to" – I suppose there is some difference between the two but it seems all but clear from the discussion above:
- Wikidata is (like iMDB) WP:USERGENERATED content. The WP:RS guideline (whereto WP:USERGENERATED redirects) has some exceptions. Afaics, however, the listed exceptions do not apply to Wikidata nor to iMDB. In sum:
- Wikidata can not be used as a source
- Wikidata can not be used as a reference
- Wikidata however also (like other Wikimedia projects) often "mirrors Wikipedia content" or "relies on material from Wikipedia as source", for which the WP:CIRCULAR part of the WP:V policy has: "... do not use websites that mirror Wikipedia content or publications that rely on material from Wikipedia as sources", which means that
- content residing at Wikidata which was previously merged there from Wikipedia should not be used as a source
- content residing at Wikidata which was previously merged there from Wikipedia should not be used as a reference
- Copying references from an unreliable source to Wikipedia without confirming that these references are reliable and support the content is equally a breach of policy, e.g. from WP:CIRCULAR: "Content from a Wikipedia article is not considered reliable unless it is backed up by citing reliable sources. Confirm that these sources support the content, then use them directly.", which means,
- the external reliable source (not Wikidata) should be used as a source
- the external reliable source (not Wikidata) should be used as a reference
- ... otherwise (if not complying to these policy requirements) the content can be WP:CHALLENGED...
Probably we should see more of that, WP:CHALLENGE-ing that type of content I mean. The abstract discussion above is unlikely to lead to an (abstract) solution, and even less likely to change policy. So, if you see mainspace content that is likely sourced from and/or referenced to Wikidata, and that is not WP:BLUE content, remove it. If a discussion ensues, that can not be resolved on the article's talk page, then bring it here in the Source/Article/Content format recommended for this noticeboard, and we'd maybe have something less abstract to discuss about here. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:57, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
Here's a first example of such a WP:CHALLENGE:
- [13]:
- Source – Wikidata
- Article – Malpelo Island
- Content – removed content, based on the unreliable Wikidata source, does not distinguish between the name of the island ("Malpelo Island") and the name of the WHS protected area ("Malpelo Fauna and Flora Sanctuary"), notwithstanding that the external reliable source (1216) & reference (identical to external reliable source, i.e. 1216) are clear that that is the name of the WHS protected area.
- The above has not been discussed on the article's talk page yet (and was, for clarity, operated under Template talk:Infobox World Heritage Site#Implementation of RfC) – just trying to illustrate what such WP:CHALLENGEs could look like.
- Further, this example illustrates what goes wrong when not *checking* (i.e. per WP:CIRCULAR's "Confirm that these [external reliable] sources support the content, then use them directly") whether the content of the external reliable source matches the content imported from Wikidata... --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:21, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- Fracis, that is true for any information, and besides the point. My question here basically is: when we transclude data from WikiData, are we getting that data from an external source. —Dirk Beetstra T C 05:41, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- External to what? Wikidata is a Wikimedia project owned by the WMF so, like English Wikipedia, it's internal to that group of projects; Wikidata is a project different from English Wikipedia, so it is as external to English Wikipedia as, say, French Wikipedia or Commons. Could you explain why that question is relevant? For me the main distinction is: reliable or not reliable, that is: in WP:RS/WP:V sense – and the kind of distinctions that are sorted out on this noticeboard, which is called "Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard". So, for example, French Wikipedia is not a reliable source in that sense. For Commons, the answer to the reliability question falls in two parts: it is partially reliable, and partially unreliable. Probably for Wikidata that would be the case too: partially reliable, partially unreliable. I propose to proceed with case studies triggered by WP:CHALLENGEs as described above, which would make the question at least tangible. Maybe the abstract external-or-internal question is "besides the point". At least it seems to be so on this noticeboard which is about reliability of sources. So please explain why you think your question relevant, maybe we can find a better venue for it (if it is, as you seem to indicate, unrelated to the reliable-or-unreliable question). --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:25, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Fracis, that is true for any information, and besides the point. My question here basically is: when we transclude data from WikiData, are we getting that data from an external source. —Dirk Beetstra T C 05:41, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- So, we are transcluding material from an unreliable source. There is correct information on it, but in basis, since material on WD can be a) reliably sourced, b) unreliably sourced, c) unsourced), d) reliably sourced but changed without changing the reference. So we are getting to the point. —Dirk Beetstra T C 08:13, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- As to my question: if we are transcuding data from WikiData, are we sourcing information, and therefore is that information source subject to WP:RS? That is besides the question whether the material carries a reference here or there. —Dirk Beetstra T C 08:17, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Tacking on references without checking whether the reference represents a reliable source nor whether the source supports the content would be meaningless in any Wikimedia context. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:44, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Scenario: I include a chembox, where the synonym field is empty, and the box is set up to transclude if the data is referenced on WikiData. However, WikiData is empty for the synonym as well. I check all transcluded fields, noting that there are no synonyms, and see all are NOW reliably sourced. I save and walk away. You come to WikiData the next day to the same item, fill in a synonym, referenced to what En.wikipedia considers an unreliable source (but since WikiData is not that strict, you have not done anything ‘wrong’). Because it is THENa referenced item and the chembox is set up to transclude referenced items, it is transcluded. YOU have just added unreliable material through MY edit. But from the en.wikipedia point of view, you have tacked on a reference to data wihout checking whether after transclusion it is representing a reliable source or whether the source supports the content. Meaningless? —Dirk Beetstra T C 11:54, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Is it your responsibility that if you edit WikiData and add data that is going to be transcluded to make sure that it follows en.wikipedia sourcing rules? And if you, on WikiData, continue to add such data, will any admin on WikiData block you (after warnings) for consistently failing en.wikipedia’s sourcing requirements? —Dirk Beetstra T C 12:08, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- It seems extremely unlikely I would have added a synonym for a chemical (with or without reference) to Wikidata. Hence my proposal to switch to real examples instead of using hypothetical ones – would at least avoid to seemingly make me responsible for things I would never do.
- In your hypothetical example, did the Lua code which imported the synonym (and its reference) check whether the source indicated by the reference is reliable for en.wikipedia's purposes? And whether that source covered the content of the imported material? I don't think so, not on either account. Thus, the software (and/or whoever set it up in that way) seems to be the culprit for evading the WP:V policy. But whatever: if something along these lines happens, simply WP:CHALLENGE the material by removing it (which is an acceptable method to counter material that does not comply to WP:V). If that doesn't lead to acceptable results, bring the example back to this noticeboard for analysis. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:04, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Are you really expecting a LUA code being able to detect if something is a reliable source for information or not? This noticeboard can be closd. —Dirk Beetstra T C 13:36, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, the Lua code cannot perform what is needed for full WP:V compliance, hence the unresolved problem. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:53, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Exactly. Unless WikiData is a reliable source, we have no way to distinguish whether their material is reliable. We should therefor not source material from WikiData. —Dirk Beetstra T C 13:56, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- That's nonsense. Wikidata is not a source, reliable or otherwise. Material cannot be reliable or unreliable, only sources have that property. The way we distinguish whether the source is reliable is the always the same and we have WP:RS to explain how to do it.
- Here's a concrete example: William P. Murphy received the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine. Is that reliable or unreliable? Neither, it's a statement. Here's the award that Wikidata states William P. Murphy received: Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine . Is that reliable or unreliable? Neither. Follow the pen-icon link and you'll find this reference https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/1934/ - is that reliable or unreliable? I would have thought 'reliable'. Anybody disagree? If you want to challenge something, why not look at William P. Murphy? You can legitimately remove the first four paragraphs because they are unsourced. The infobox, however, has good sourcing in place for each of its facts. Using Dirk's reasoning, we should not have any content at all because it's all sourced from Wikipedia. --RexxS (talk) 01:32, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- I just WP:CHALLENGEd the Wikidata source at William P. Murphy ([14]). --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:18, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Exactly. Unless WikiData is a reliable source, we have no way to distinguish whether their material is reliable. We should therefor not source material from WikiData. —Dirk Beetstra T C 13:56, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- And also here, we are running in the same circle. Guess we’ll see at the next RfC. —Dirk Beetstra T C 17:41, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Maybe you are running in circles, I'm not. The challenging at the Murphy article worked afaics: the infobox is now Wikidata-free. Next non-hypothetical example please. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:41, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- ((rto|Francis Schonken}} No, WE are running in circles- I say WikiData is a source, and an unreliable one, you(pl) say, just challenge, I say that there is nothing to challenge as it is unreliable and should not be a source, you challenge .. on the other hand I say we transclude, then people say, we import only data we filter .. i say we then transclude what we filter but no, we don’t transclude. Perfect circles. Over and over. Now, go import and challenge what you want, we’ll meet at either ArbCom or another RfC, because this is a recipe for continuous fights, WE are not going to solve this, we need the community to decide on these terms. I already said I will wait for others to comment, but it is continuous the same four or five people. I want other editors to explain to me it is NOT a source and why, and I want other editors to explain to me we are NOT transcluding. Now, close the circle again. —Dirk Beetstra T C 22:43, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not running in circles, please speak for yourself.
- WP:CHALLENGEs can be applied to material that is unsourced and to material that is poorly sourced (please familiarize yourself with the policy instead of basing yourself on circular reasoning). So, whether Wikidata is a "poor" (e.g., WP:USERGENERATED, WP:CIRCULAR,...) source, or "not a source at all", WP:CHALLENGE can be applied either way. I'm hoping that through discussion of concrete examples (instead of endless theoretical discussions) we may establish what is the case. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- That is the point, Francis, my argument is 'it is a source'. If WikiData is the source, then there is no point in challenging - WikiData is not a reliable source and they are, by definition challenged. You guys state 'WikiData is not a source', in which case the data can be challenged. WikiData is the website that carries the information that we use on en.wikipedia, that is a 'body of work', 'a database', an 'information carrier' .. it is a source, it is our source. And it is unreliable. I have not seen yet a convincing argument why WikiData is NOT a source, and until then we are running in circles.
- Until now it is two against two (roughly) where two say it is a source and that therefore the whole of WikiData is subject to WP:RS, and two who say that it is not a source, and that therefore the data is subject to WP:CHALLENGE. WE are running in circles, not me alone. --Dirk Beetstra T C 13:09, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- "Poorly sourced" material (which includes "sourced to an unreliable source") can be WP:CHALLENGEd. That is policy. As I said above. Multiple times. Please snap out of your circular reasoning, and maybe start with getting acquainted with the policy. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- OK. By this I challenge: ALL material sourced from WikiData is challenged, please remove all information that we transclude, import, or whatever you name it (all, literally all material that is stored on WikiData and that is, filtered or unfultered, through LUA code and templates, and directly transcluded) from En.wikipedia, as that is all sourced from an unreliable source: WikiData. —Dirk Beetstra T C 13:59, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- To clarify the word ‘Berlin’ in here: “Berlin“ is sourced from WikiData. —Dirk Beetstra T C 14:59, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- "Poorly sourced" material (which includes "sourced to an unreliable source") can be WP:CHALLENGEd. That is policy. As I said above. Multiple times. Please snap out of your circular reasoning, and maybe start with getting acquainted with the policy. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- ((rto|Francis Schonken}} No, WE are running in circles- I say WikiData is a source, and an unreliable one, you(pl) say, just challenge, I say that there is nothing to challenge as it is unreliable and should not be a source, you challenge .. on the other hand I say we transclude, then people say, we import only data we filter .. i say we then transclude what we filter but no, we don’t transclude. Perfect circles. Over and over. Now, go import and challenge what you want, we’ll meet at either ArbCom or another RfC, because this is a recipe for continuous fights, WE are not going to solve this, we need the community to decide on these terms. I already said I will wait for others to comment, but it is continuous the same four or five people. I want other editors to explain to me it is NOT a source and why, and I want other editors to explain to me we are NOT transcluding. Now, close the circle again. —Dirk Beetstra T C 22:43, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Maybe you are running in circles, I'm not. The challenging at the Murphy article worked afaics: the infobox is now Wikidata-free. Next non-hypothetical example please. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:41, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, the Lua code cannot perform what is needed for full WP:V compliance, hence the unresolved problem. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:53, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Tacking on references without checking whether the reference represents a reliable source nor whether the source supports the content would be meaningless in any Wikimedia context. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:44, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Francis Schonken: If you challenge something as it's unreferenced, you should remove it completely from the article (or add the references), it's not an excuse to substitute Wikidata-provided information (particularly when that information has references on Wikidata!). Otherwise, by the logic that seems to be used here, you're referencing it to the Wikipedia article. Mike Peel (talk) 21:18, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Re. "... (or add the references), ..." – which I did, e.g. here. If you think that can be useful, I'm prepared to discuss that example, or any other similar example, in detail. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Related question
One issue that has not been discussed is how WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT applies when transcluding from Wikidata. My understanding of SAYWHERE is that, if we use Wikidata as an intermediary host site for information, then Wikidata becomes OUR source, regardless of where Wikidata got its info. Wikidata is what we should cite. Comments? Blueboar (talk) 11:22, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Now that is exactly as I see it: regardless of whether the data is locally and/or on WikiData referenced to a reliable source and whether either reference (still) represents what we originally transcluded (knowing that material may not be on WikiData when the transclusion was set up and that the data can be changed on WikiData after transclusion), WikiData is the source of information, that is where we got the information. And WikiData is by all definitions of our sources unreliable (if we consider ourselves, en.wikipedia, to be an unreliable source ...). To me, ALL data that is transcluded from WikiData should carry a <ref> tag stating that WikiData is the source of the information. It stretches my AGF that all editors who transclude data from WikiData have checked whether all data is reliably sourced (knowing that e.g. an template can now be added to a page where one field is both locally and on WikiData empty, and that later data can be added to WikiData for said field with an, for en.wikipedia, unreliable source). —Dirk Beetstra T C 11:45, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Re. "... ALL data that is transcluded from WikiData should carry a <ref> tag stating that WikiData is the source of the information" – of course not. Wikidata is a WP:USERGENERATED source (see above), and it is thus not allowed to use it as a reference. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:09, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- So we are not allowed to transclude from Wikidata? Blueboar (talk) 13:27, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- If you source data from WikiData you have to reference your source. If you are not allowed to use an unreliable source as a reference, you are not allowed to use the source. —Dirk Beetstra T C 13:35, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- ...thus what I wrote in the #Suggestion: WP:CHALLENGE subsection seems entirely relevant after all. The exception would be WP:BLUE type of content (as I indicated above). Thus, I'd proceed with WP:CHALLENGEs, as described above, so that we can figure out together where the WP:BLUE border falls for content imported from Wikidata. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:49, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, because WikiData is unreliable, there is no unchallengable info - all information that you transclude from WikiData is unreliable, and therefore it should simply not be used. And we are NOT talking about imported data, we are talking about transcluded data - i.e. data that, when changed on WikiData, changes data here. —Dirk Beetstra T C 13:59, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- About the semantics: "transcluding" is definitely a (specific) form of "importing". I'd say "importing-with-a-live-connection" or "importing-by-software" or some such. So, if there's guidance relating to "importing" it certainly also applies to "transcluding".
- There's definitely also WP:BLUE type of content in a Wikidata item: at least the sitelinks (called interwiki links at English Wikipedia) are. Whether these fall under the "exception" of the second paragraph of WP:CIRCULAR, or are completely outside the WP:V/WP:RS realm is unclear: the thing is, they're unproblematic as far as this WP:RSN board is concerned. I'd be sympathetic towards the idea that authority control numbers might be to some degree WP:BLUE, or at least unproblematic, too. I'd like to find out whether there's a consensus about that. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:35, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- Although it can have impact, I indeed think that the interwikis are completely exempt from WP:V/WP:RS. All other, though, do not. I do think that linking the wrong persondata on a person could be BLP-sensitive (as that does relate to being able to confirm whether we are talking about a certain subject). --Dirk Beetstra T C 09:15, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- I can't see a problem with how the {{authority control}} box currently operates. Since all authority control numbers in that box (whether or not transcluded from Wikidata) are presented as external links, and are by the design of the box not used as references/sources in the WP:V/WP:RS sense, this would equally fall outside WP:RSN board I suppose. Afaics also "unchallengable" in the WP:CHALLENGE sense. Applicable guidance would be Wikipedia:External links, and if there are issues to be resolved w.r.t. external links in that template, rather to be taken to WP:ELN than to this WP:RSN. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:28, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- IMHO, anything in a Wikipedia article should be correct, and in this case the created external link is by itself a (primary) reference. But also for external links, one needs to be able to show that it is correct, and there are (albeit rare) cases where there are references in the external link section to verify that a certain external link is indeed the one that it is supposed to be (ever changing external links are sometimes referenced as to show that that is currently the correct one). I would not really go as far as that external links are completely exempt from WP:V/WP:RS. --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:27, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Francis Schonken: There is such a discussion currently at ELN here. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:00, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- I can't see a problem with how the {{authority control}} box currently operates. Since all authority control numbers in that box (whether or not transcluded from Wikidata) are presented as external links, and are by the design of the box not used as references/sources in the WP:V/WP:RS sense, this would equally fall outside WP:RSN board I suppose. Afaics also "unchallengable" in the WP:CHALLENGE sense. Applicable guidance would be Wikipedia:External links, and if there are issues to be resolved w.r.t. external links in that template, rather to be taken to WP:ELN than to this WP:RSN. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:28, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- Although it can have impact, I indeed think that the interwikis are completely exempt from WP:V/WP:RS. All other, though, do not. I do think that linking the wrong persondata on a person could be BLP-sensitive (as that does relate to being able to confirm whether we are talking about a certain subject). --Dirk Beetstra T C 09:15, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- Re. "... ALL data that is transcluded from WikiData should carry a <ref> tag stating that WikiData is the source of the information" – of course not. Wikidata is a WP:USERGENERATED source (see above), and it is thus not allowed to use it as a reference. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:09, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
cryptomundo.com and mysteriousuniverse.org
An editor is insisting that we use sources like cryptomundo.com and mysteriousuniverse.org over at list of cryptids (Talk:List_of_cryptids#Man-eating_trees). (As the article is something of a hive for cryptozoologists, if you're not familiar with the pseudoscience of cryptozoology, you'll save yourself some trouble by reading this or this first.) :bloodofox: (talk) 20:04, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- You'll note the second link here is to a bogus personal page written by editor bloodofox. And you keep synthesizing supposed WP guidelines and creating non-facts. No one is suggesting that books or magazines on mythology, cryptozoology, ghosts, folklore, or aliens, be used as sources for anything except the subjects in question. These aren't scientific studies where sources such as these should be blotted out as fast as possible. But when we have an article on ghost sightings we are going to use books and other sources on ghosts. When we write about mythology we are going to use books and websites that deal with mythology. And when we have articles on lists of cryptids we use books and magazines that describe cryptids. And, of course, when we talk about real scientific studies we aren't going to use any of these types of sources. Wikipedia has always worked this way. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:46, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- The "bogus personal page" is an essay, which is obvious to anyone who clicks it. Note that this is the user insisting that we use these sites.
- Obviously, when we write about mythology, we turn to philologists or other related fields in anthropology. When we discuss ghostlore, we turn to folklorists. We have a plethora of policies regarding pseudoscience, nicely summed up at WP:PSCI. Under no circumstances do we turn to amateur pages like cryptomundo.com. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:14, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- It is not obvious that the info is your personal musings on a subject you dislike and have been trying to get banished for years. Mythology, Cryptozoology, Ghosts... they are all the same thing as far as science is concerned. They are non-science and we make sure our readers know they are non-science. When we look at the God Zeus it's as non-science as a horned rabbit. Anthropology? Really? What a double standard that would be to accept here. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:51, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yikes! Judging by your response, you seem to have a poor understanding of WP:RS and, well, the humanities in general. Nonetheless, per WP:RS (especially Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#Scholarship), we cite experts — academics — in their field. I'm afraid you'll need to look elsewhere to link to sites promoting pet pseudosciences. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:56, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- Right, like with the Golden Fleece article we use books such as Lives of the Necromancers: An account of the most eminent persons in successive ages, who have claimed for themselves, or to whom has been imputed by others, the exercise of magical power. A perfectly fine scientific journal on the subject of Golden Fleeces. Your reliance on RS and other wiki guidelines has been very very inaccurate in past posts, and your attempts to remove all things crypto-related have been admonished and reverted by multiple longstanding editors and administrators. Perhaps this is a topic that you should stay away from because of inherent bias? We have editors trying to add sourcing to an article, while you and one other editor simply delete everything. This is supposed to be a fun topic that everyone knows isn't science, but that is covered in books, newspapers, dictionaries, and magazines. We site the source that it is considered a cryptid, plop it in the list, and move on. Just like ghosts and mythological three-headed dogs. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:26, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yikes! Judging by your response, you seem to have a poor understanding of WP:RS and, well, the humanities in general. Nonetheless, per WP:RS (especially Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#Scholarship), we cite experts — academics — in their field. I'm afraid you'll need to look elsewhere to link to sites promoting pet pseudosciences. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:56, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- It is not obvious that the info is your personal musings on a subject you dislike and have been trying to get banished for years. Mythology, Cryptozoology, Ghosts... they are all the same thing as far as science is concerned. They are non-science and we make sure our readers know they are non-science. When we look at the God Zeus it's as non-science as a horned rabbit. Anthropology? Really? What a double standard that would be to accept here. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:51, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- Obviously, when we write about mythology, we turn to philologists or other related fields in anthropology. When we discuss ghostlore, we turn to folklorists. We have a plethora of policies regarding pseudoscience, nicely summed up at WP:PSCI. Under no circumstances do we turn to amateur pages like cryptomundo.com. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:14, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- If you see a violation of WP:RS, remove it. It's as simple as that. You're bound by WP:RS just like anyone else. I have no idea what the context is for the 19th century book you've pulled out of the blue, but Wikipedia's source for myth-related articles are just as strong as they are for any other subject. (The "other user" you mention, by the way, is @Tronvillain:.) Notably, when I rewrote cryptozoology from scratch and various other related articles, I stuck to WP:GA standards, just like I do anywhere else (so much for "attempts to remove anything crypto-related"!).
- Sorry, as long as the site doesn't somehow get bought out by, say, global warming denialists, flat earthers, or gay conversion therapy proponents, we retain Wikipedia's reliable source criteria and so links to pseudoscientific sites like cryptomundo.com and mysteriousuniverse.org just ain't happening. :bloodofox: (talk) 00:10, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
The issue that remains unclear to me, despite multiple threads on a half dozen or more talk pages, is the extent to which something like bigfoot should be considered an academic subject for the purposes of choosing reliable sources. IMO folkloristics does not have a monopoly on reliable sourcing for a subject that's so much a part of popular culture (or regional culture). So if there are books in the popular press or high-quality articles in non-academic publications (not including silly local news stories like "let's interview this local guy who says he saw a yeti"), I don't see a good reason not to use them. And if popular press uses terms that originated with cryptozoology, then use them just as we would any other term from popular press. In other words, as with most other topics, academic sources are ideal but not absolutely required. I feel very much in the minority with this nonbinary opinion, though, as I see bloodofox and a handful of others insisting on academic sourcing, and I see fyunck(click) and a handful of others insisting that basically anything having to do with cryptozoology is a reliable source. It's a mess. For a long time.
As to this specific matter of this section, I'm inclined to think these two websites are not great sources. What would be useful, Fyunck(click), would be an explanation of why they are reliable sources (putting aside, for the time being, the issues I mention above). In other words, let's say, for the sake of argument, that there is no special requirement for academic sources here and that there isn't a long messy history in debates over these sources. Why are these two in particular good sources according to WP:RS? — Rhododendrites talk \\ 23:40, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- There seems to be some confusion here. First, if you happen to 'believe in' (see folk belief, emic and etic) the existence of Bigfoot, that doesn't make you a cryptozoologist. You don't magically start using the word cryptid, for example. This word remains obscure to the general public and simply isn't used by academics. We've been over this many times. The word that those who aren't members of the obscure and tiny subculture use is one everyone knows: monster. It's also the same word that folklorists, anthropologists, and zoologists use for fantastical beasts like Bigfoot. It is, by far, the most common word that media outlets use to describe creatures like Bigfoot or, say, the Loch Ness Monster.
- And this is exactly why we need academic source for these topics, just like any other, and as mandated by Wikipedia's sourcing polices. While Wikipedia may have served as the subculture's primary vector for years, several editors — including myself — continue to work toward improving the quality of our coverage on these topics. :bloodofox: (talk) 00:24, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- That word is not really obscure as I see it in newspapers and dictionaries. It has entered standard English. I have no idea why you keep trying to make it like it is only used by a handful of people around the world. Fyunck(click) (talk) 03:40, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Actually, it's quite obscure to the general public and in media, and Wikipedia is its primary vector. Go on, compare usage of monster versus cryptid! :bloodofox: (talk) 04:15, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- That word is not really obscure as I see it in newspapers and dictionaries. It has entered standard English. I have no idea why you keep trying to make it like it is only used by a handful of people around the world. Fyunck(click) (talk) 03:40, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Neither of those websites is reliable in any way, shape or form. Both emphasize "humor" and both publish credulous bullshit. I will consistently oppose any use of websites like this anywhere on Wikipedia. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 00:26, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with Rhododendrites. Mysterious Universe is a tremendously entertaining podcast - I even used to subscribe to it. However, it's nothing more than that - entertainment. It's produced by two guys out of their home in Australia, neither of whom have scholarly or journalistic qualifications, who don't apply more than the slightest gatekeeping process, and who often have guests of dubious credentials. (This is not a knock on the show, just an observation that it's not intended to be anything more than light fare.) Chetsford (talk) 00:29, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Of course they aren't great websites, I'm not sure anyone said that they were great. If at all possible we would want much better ones, preferably books in print. I don't happen to own any books on what is and what is not a cryptid. What I am saying is that no one should be able to be an academic on ghosts or golden fleece either, yet those sources seem to have no problem passing muster here. It's an unfair standard. Way back when, I had high school classes on mythology and demons and other such topics. They were fun but not really academic in any way that I could see. I have no idea if class members took any of it seriously, but we had to do research on the topics nonetheless. If we find multiple google entries of a creature being considered a cryptid, then we put in those multiple sources and add it to the list. You're not going to find scientist written, peer reviewed papers on the topics for sourcing. But you aren't going to find those for ghosts, mythology, or folklore beasts either. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:15, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- If you have an issue with Wikipedia's reliable source policy or you need further guidance on what does and does not constitute a reliable source (and, if you'd like, how to source articles on the topic of myth, legend, or any other folklore genre, for example), please discuss it over at Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources. :bloodofox: (talk) 01:22, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- It seems your suggestion was that specific cryptids be included in a list of cryptids if they were mentioned in, for instance, Mysterious Universe because no legitimate scientific source would index - in the example you gave - Man Eating Trees. And that MU, in this instance, is not being used to comment on the veracity of the existence of Man Eating Trees but simply to verify it exists as a hypothesized animal by virtue of the fact they hypothesized on it. In the strictest sense, you're correct. However, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. The mere fact that a not notable media outlet has ruminated on a cryptid certainly isn't enough to warrant its inclusion in an article that is "a list of cryptids notable within cryptozoology". That said, I appreciate your position that the absence of sources examining the sociology of the cryptozoological community means that there will always be a dearth of RS which could establish what is, in fact, notable within that community and understand you're not holding out MU as an example of RS. Chetsford (talk) 01:44, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Reliable sources are not absolute. For instance, professional tennis is sanctioned by the ATP, WTA, and ITF. We use those places as reliable sources for player information and stats. However, by wikipedia consensus, we are forbidden from using those governing bodies as a source for how we spell a player's name at wikipedia. While using crypto books and websites for academic things would be ridiculous, using them as additional sources for what is considered a cryptid makes perfect sense. They are not a first choice, but they are a source when you are talking about fantastic creatures to begin with. Just like we use bizarre books as sources for things like Golden Fleece. Now I don't look at Mysterious Universe for anything, so perhaps it is not as good as some others, but a blanket removal of sources from anything crypto-related is really what we are talking about here. Bloodofox wants all sources from all cryptozoology books and magazines and websites expurgated, and that's not right.
- Of course they aren't great websites, I'm not sure anyone said that they were great. If at all possible we would want much better ones, preferably books in print. I don't happen to own any books on what is and what is not a cryptid. What I am saying is that no one should be able to be an academic on ghosts or golden fleece either, yet those sources seem to have no problem passing muster here. It's an unfair standard. Way back when, I had high school classes on mythology and demons and other such topics. They were fun but not really academic in any way that I could see. I have no idea if class members took any of it seriously, but we had to do research on the topics nonetheless. If we find multiple google entries of a creature being considered a cryptid, then we put in those multiple sources and add it to the list. You're not going to find scientist written, peer reviewed papers on the topics for sourcing. But you aren't going to find those for ghosts, mythology, or folklore beasts either. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:15, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- As for indiscriminate lists, we have articles here like List of Nirvana concerts worked on by many editors and administrators through the years. We have lists of thousands upon thousands of asteroids... few of which are notable. Worked on by many astronomy fans. We have lists of every tennis player, List of stars on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, List of Essential Mix episodes, all of which are massive lists compared to cryptids. It seems like this list is being singled out by certain editors because it is not scientific. those other lists have planty of non-notables in their listings and they have worse sourcing than list of cryptids. What is it about cryptids that makes it a continual target for a handful of editors? I don't recall what even led me to the cryptid article to begin with, but I stuck around because it seemed to getting the short end of the stick as far a fair treatment by certain editors. Fyunck(click) (talk) 03:40, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Wow, where to start with this nonsense. I can sum this up: here you have a lot of text aiming to get cryptomundo.com and mysteriousuniverse.org on Wikipedia by attempting to avoid WP:RS. Listen, add these sources to an article and they'll simply be removed by another editor who leaves an edit summary of "WP:RS". And they'll be right, because reliable sources are a pillar of the platform. You know better, and your time is frankly better spent elsewhere. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:15, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Considering the nonsense and mischief you caused in trying to delete the article against consensus, this is a pot, kettle, black, type of statement. Move along. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:48, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- As I've pointed out before, those are completely different type of lists. As seen at WP:CSC: "Every entry in the list fails the notability criteria" or "Short, complete lists of every item that is verifiably a member of the group."--tronvillain (talk) 18:39, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Considering the nonsense and mischief you caused in trying to delete the article against consensus, this is a pot, kettle, black, type of statement. Move along. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:48, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Wow, where to start with this nonsense. I can sum this up: here you have a lot of text aiming to get cryptomundo.com and mysteriousuniverse.org on Wikipedia by attempting to avoid WP:RS. Listen, add these sources to an article and they'll simply be removed by another editor who leaves an edit summary of "WP:RS". And they'll be right, because reliable sources are a pillar of the platform. You know better, and your time is frankly better spent elsewhere. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:15, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- As for indiscriminate lists, we have articles here like List of Nirvana concerts worked on by many editors and administrators through the years. We have lists of thousands upon thousands of asteroids... few of which are notable. Worked on by many astronomy fans. We have lists of every tennis player, List of stars on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, List of Essential Mix episodes, all of which are massive lists compared to cryptids. It seems like this list is being singled out by certain editors because it is not scientific. those other lists have planty of non-notables in their listings and they have worse sourcing than list of cryptids. What is it about cryptids that makes it a continual target for a handful of editors? I don't recall what even led me to the cryptid article to begin with, but I stuck around because it seemed to getting the short end of the stick as far a fair treatment by certain editors. Fyunck(click) (talk) 03:40, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Back to the topic of the suggested sources. Stop discussing philosophy here.
- mysteriousuniverse.org has a staff of writers, but I could not locate its editorial policy. However the website offers a warning about the reliability of its contents: "Neither we nor any third parties provide any warranty or guarantee as to the accuracy, timeliness, performance, completeness or suitability of the information and materials found or offered on this website for any particular purpose. You acknowledge that such information and materials may contain inaccuracies or errors and we expressly exclude liability for any such inaccuracies or errors to the fullest extent permitted by law."
- Cryptomundo is a WordPress blog. I think it meets the criteria for self-published works. Per Wikipedia policy: "Anyone can create a personal web page or publish their own book, and also claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published media, such as books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs (as distinguished from newsblogs, above), content farms, Internet forum postings, and social media postings, are largely not acceptable as sources. Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." Dimadick (talk) 08:24, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Without addressing the other issues, I will note in passing that the content disclaimer is a red herring. You'll find similar disclaimers on the New York Times and CNN websites. Such boilerplate disclaimers don't convey anything about the reliability of a source one way or the other; they just tell us that the publisher has a lawyer. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 12:33, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Keep in mind that this is a question about what whether those are reliable sources for establishing something as a "cryptid notable within cryptozoology." The list shouldn't just be "List of anything ever mentioned by anyone as a cryptid that also has a Wikipedia article." Even within a pseudoscience, there are things that are significant and things that aren't. There are "cryptids" that are prominent within cryptozoology (they get a lot of coverage, have a lot of supposed sightings, people actually look for them, etc.), like bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster, chupacabras, thylacines (actually existed, but gets described as a cryptid by those claiming its not extinct), and so on. Then we have things like man-eating trees, described by Shuker in The Beasts that Hide from Man as one of the
"little-realized plethora of lesser-known or decidedly obscure mystery beasts also on record - creatures that have often received only the briefest of mentions in the literature, and even then only in specialized, scarcely read, or largely forgotten journals, travelogues, historical accounts, and other esoteric sources."
Does the occasional article on a site like Mysterious Universe repeating exactly the same hundred year old sightings, hoaxes, and fiction constitute notability within the "field" of cryptozoology? I really don't think it does. --tronvillain (talk) 16:34, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Focusing on "cryptid notable within cryptozoology" may not be the best way to frame it. In that context, academic sources are absolutely irrelevant and the question is what are reliable sources within cryptozoology. As we know, with rare exceptions (i.e. Daily Mail), we don't really label sources as never reliable or always reliable for any purpose, so while some cryptozoology publication might not carry a lot of weight when talking about a bigger topic per PSCI/FRINGE, if we're only looking "in universe," then it's more likely that these two websites could be considered reliable (note that I'm not saying that I think they are, however). It seems a lot easier to just make it a list of notable cryptids, including those for which we have a Wikipedia article and for which there are reliable sources calling them a cryptid. It's in that rubric that I think these sources are worse. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 16:53, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- We actually do have academic sources discussing what monsters and entities from the folklore record that cryptozoologists find to be particularly notable, which can generally be summed up as Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster and anything cryptozoologists deem to resemble them. While academics mostly ignore the pseudoscience (or, in the case of biologists, not uncommonly offer up harsh criticism of it), they now and then do discuss what cryptozoologists primarily fixate on. The fact is that we have academic sources on this topic, but we have historically had -- and continue to have -- editors who are choosing to either ignore them or try to wiggle around them in favor of, for example, amateur websites. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:20, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Well, that's the stated scope of the article, which is perhaps the problem. I still think those wouldn't be sufficient even "in universe", but as you say, perhaps it should be a list of notable cryptids: those which have a Wikipedia article and have reliable sources describing them as a cryptid (sufficient to get that into their article, for example), which would probably encompass most of the "major" cryptids. For collections of anything and everything someone calls a cryptid, there are things like the Cryptid Wiki.--tronvillain (talk) 18:35, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- We actually do have academic sources discussing what monsters and entities from the folklore record that cryptozoologists find to be particularly notable, which can generally be summed up as Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster and anything cryptozoologists deem to resemble them. While academics mostly ignore the pseudoscience (or, in the case of biologists, not uncommonly offer up harsh criticism of it), they now and then do discuss what cryptozoologists primarily fixate on. The fact is that we have academic sources on this topic, but we have historically had -- and continue to have -- editors who are choosing to either ignore them or try to wiggle around them in favor of, for example, amateur websites. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:20, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
But when we have an article on ghost sightings we are going to use books and other sources on ghosts...And when we have articles on lists of cryptids we use books and magazines that describe cryptids.
Actually, no. Ghosts and cryptids fall under our pseudoscience and fringe theories guidelines, which advises (for good reason) that the best sources to describe fringe topics and ideas are sources that are independent of those ideas. In short, we don't let a fringe idea present itself on its own terms. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:58, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- I am not sure that is what they are being used for, they are not supporting anything more then inclusion of something as a Cryptid on that list, not for it being real.Slatersteven (talk) 17:03, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Ah, well, good luck. Cryptozoology sources can't agree on anything, everyone claims to be an authority, and every rumor or urban legend has been dubbed a cryptid. - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:26, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- That is not the source under discussion. So are the sources under discussion unreliable in general?, are are they only unreliable for the specific claims they are being unused to source?, What are they unreliable for?Slatersteven (talk) 17:34, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- OK, I'm not sure what makes cryptomundo.com and mysteriousuniverse.org more reliable authorities on what or what is not a cryptid, than say, nationalcryptidsociety.org, or any other cryptozoology site on the internet. - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:45, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- That is not the source under discussion. So are the sources under discussion unreliable in general?, are are they only unreliable for the specific claims they are being unused to source?, What are they unreliable for?Slatersteven (talk) 17:34, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Ah, well, good luck. Cryptozoology sources can't agree on anything, everyone claims to be an authority, and every rumor or urban legend has been dubbed a cryptid. - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:26, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- no these are not RS. They are not OK anyway as blogs, and are especially not OK for WP:FRINGE stuff like this. Jytdog (talk) 01:02, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- Each one of these is used a bunch of times, needs cleaning:
- cryptomundo.com appearances
- mysteriousuniverse.org appearances
- -- Jytdog (talk) 01:59, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Daily Mail
The article is Terence Hogan, and I already know Daily Mail is unreliable but there are some circumstances it may be used. How about as a source for a daughter's recollection of her deceased father? The Daily Mail article is here. Hogan is mentioned in other sources (books, The Guardian, Independent, etc.) so some of the facts of the crimes, etc. are verifiable but not the parts about his family life, or some of the missing pieces about his role in the crimes. The article also corroborates some of the dates/times and location of Hogan, who was never caught/arrested. Can the Daily Mail be used to cite the daughter's recollection using inline text attribution? Atsme📞📧 19:12, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Survey
- Yes - for the daughter's recollection about her father using inline citations and text attribution. Atsme📞📧 19:12, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- No. Sorry, this is sensationalist claptrap, classic WP:TABLOID. Guy (Help!) 19:14, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes - we'd accept it if it were self-published, so we should accept it on the Mail. --GRuban (talk) 20:22, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- Partly - Usable regarding her views of her relationship with her father but not for factual information, especially related to criminal activity. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- Partly I am not sure about this. On the one hand it is the DM, and thus may is "sensationalist claptrap", on the other hand it is his daughter. But I wonder why no RS have picked up on this?Slatersteven (talk) 08:18, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- No because it's a primary source about a criminal - the Mail have probably scanned it for libel (or at least libel they can't afford to get away with) but nothing else. After "Enemies of the People" I would not touch the Daily Mail with a barge pole. As Slatersteven suggests, why did the Mail think it was important to mention, but no other newspaper did? I realise the Mail does cover stories about women or fashion more than other papers, but more often than not these days it seems to be a front for soft porn (when I looked at the source, I got "Katie Price, 39, flaunts tiny thong in sheer dress as she parties with James Argent, 30, amid claims her third marriage to Kieran is finally over" - at least The Sun was actually honest and upfront about what Page 3 was!) Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 08:55, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- Ritchie333, some of the information is actually mentioned in books, obits and a few RS but the Daily Mail is the only one I'm aware of that published the exclusive by the daughter, (possibly even the Sun & Mirror included it but I haven't checked - all the same company, I think). I have dates of other news sources, such as Daily Express 28/11/62, pg 3 that I'm going to try WP:RX to see if I can get access. There's also this book which was criticized for being too academic. *lol* It includes police investigation reports, and corroborates some of18:43, 17 May 2018 (UTC) the daughter's story about her Dad. Hogan was believed to be a suspect but the police couldn't prove it, he was too crafty, and was one of the robbers who got away. I'm leaning to limiting it to inline text attribution quoting what daughter says about father as others have agreed would be acceptable - and citing books that corroborate some of the other things she discusses in the article. Also keep in mind that this info dates back to the 1960s before The Daily Mail became the tabloid it is today. The former close regarding this tabloid also used the date caveat. Atsme📞📧 16:54, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- No The Daily Mail ban was a very bad decision, but that doesn't justify overriding it. Exceptions include attributed opinions / selfpub / etc., but I don't see how they'd apply here. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 18:24, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- It was not a "ban" - the close of that discussion noted the following:
The Daily Mail may have been more reliable historically, and it could make sense to cite it as a primary source if it is the subject of discussion. These seem to be good points, but should come up very rarely. Editors are encouraged to discuss with each other and apply common sense in these cases.
Atsme📞📧 18:45, 17 May 2018 (UTC)- Use euphemism if you like. The "historical" issue that was discussed in the wp:dailymai RfC was St Paul's Survives from 1940. The article being discussed here is from 2011. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 12:50, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- It was not a "ban" - the close of that discussion noted the following:
- Do not use: intricate detail cited to non RS. The article can do without. --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:04, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes - In a very specific situation like this should be acceptable per the RFC close. PackMecEng (talk) 13:46, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes - Seems a perfectly valid reason to use DM here. Plus it also reminds the people who want to puritanically purge DM from Wikipedia that it wasn't a complete ban on the paper. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 17:08, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes As long as it is attributed as "According to his daughter..." While we know DM has modified or taken statements out of context, there's far too much here from a single person to see how this could be taken as such a case. --Masem (t) 17:16, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- No. DAILYMAIL seems clear enough, Wikipedia is to assume anything they print is a potential fabrication, and if it is believed what they have produced isn't a fabrication in a specific case which isn't historical or about the Mail itself, then it should be possible to obtain it from a better source, one which has independently verified the story. Monkey Bar Freak (talk) 20:00, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- no, yes the DMRFC left some space for using DM. It is very good for sports, for example. Where it is exactly terrible is typical tabloid stuff, exactly like this. If the only place where this is found, is in the DM, it is probably UNDUE anyway. If it is discussed in higher quality sources, use them. Jytdog (talk) 01:05, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- No since the Daily Mail is regarded as an unreliable source, we cannot assume that anything whatsoever it says is true, including reporting of what anyone says. It is only reliable for its own opinions, which does not even include the opinions of its columnists. TFD (talk) 01:20, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- No. The Daily Mail can't be expected to get anything outside of the sports section right. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:28, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Can reddit comments from article subjects be cited as reliable self-published sources?
On an article I intend to improve, specifically Discord, there is some important information about the article subject I want to cite, such as that it (which is a software company) has publicly stated that it has no intention to open its source (reddit comment source)—which has been, and remains, proprietary—despite inviting open-source communities to use its software (source). Unfortunately, the company is not very vocal about these matters and the majority of this information comes from reddit comments in the official subreddit of the company by official representatives and spokespeople of the company (designated as such by the subreddit).
So long as I cite the specific comment's permalink (perhaps with an archived copy), would this be an acceptable use of self-published social media content per WP:SELFPUB? I have searched the Help desk archives and the closest I could find is 2016 November 18 § Citing a Reddit AMA?, which seems to maybe support doing so, but this is obviously a somewhat different case. I have also searched the RS/N archives and the closest I could find are the following, none of which specifically address this issue with any clear consensus:
- Archive 156 § Reddit (IAmA)
- Archive 159 § Reddit
- Archive 226 § https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bill_Nye_Saves_the_World
My guess is probably not even though it might technically pass WP:SELFPUB, but I might as well ask anyway. Perhaps some future archive searcher will find this helpful. Thanks for whatever help you all are willing to provide. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 19:26, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- Reddit as with other discussion boards and forums isn't considered a reliable source. If you want to include such info you should probably see if a reliable source has reported about it. Gotitbro (talk) 18:24, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- Such sources are indeed not generally considered reliable, Gotitbro; however, self-published social media content by a subject is acceptable under certain circumstances and qualifies as verifiable, including from Reddit. (Curiously, Reddit is mentioned in WP:SELFPUB, but not in WP:SELFSOURCE.) I understand that reddit comments are generally considered to obviously be unreliable (and for good reason), but this is a very specific case in which the reddit comments are from the software company that owns and operates the subject itself, that subject being the namesake software of that company.Does this specific case qualify under these special conditions? That is the crux of this matter. Short of the CEO making the statements, this is basically the closest one could meaningfully get to the software itself (or Discord Inc.) stating anything about itself on Reddit. If this does not qualify as a reliable source per WP:SELFPUB and WP:SELFSOURCE, then perhaps we need to clarify as much in those sections.If a better source was available, such as an official blog post or a tech site news report detailing the same information, I would not even bother with this edge-case scenario since I do not want to be citing reddit comments either. However, Discord Inc.—which tries incredibly hard to be, like, totally kewl bruh—often communicates official positions through its subreddit and I want to ensure that information is included given its importance to the readers. It is not much of a surprise to me that Discord Inc. has not been more vocal about its refusal to open its source code, either, since it actively encourages open-source software and communities on its platform and opening its source has been a perennial proposal and complaint from its users. With all this in mind, how should I proceed in this specific case? More importantly, what policy or guideline improvement can we derive from this situation, since it seems technically unclear here?Thanks for your time. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 20:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- I am not familiar with Discord but if you feel this is important you can try including it if the statement was made from an official account. Also tag the material with [better source needed] or [unreliable source?]. Gotitbro (talk) 21:50, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- Such sources are indeed not generally considered reliable, Gotitbro; however, self-published social media content by a subject is acceptable under certain circumstances and qualifies as verifiable, including from Reddit. (Curiously, Reddit is mentioned in WP:SELFPUB, but not in WP:SELFSOURCE.) I understand that reddit comments are generally considered to obviously be unreliable (and for good reason), but this is a very specific case in which the reddit comments are from the software company that owns and operates the subject itself, that subject being the namesake software of that company.Does this specific case qualify under these special conditions? That is the crux of this matter. Short of the CEO making the statements, this is basically the closest one could meaningfully get to the software itself (or Discord Inc.) stating anything about itself on Reddit. If this does not qualify as a reliable source per WP:SELFPUB and WP:SELFSOURCE, then perhaps we need to clarify as much in those sections.If a better source was available, such as an official blog post or a tech site news report detailing the same information, I would not even bother with this edge-case scenario since I do not want to be citing reddit comments either. However, Discord Inc.—which tries incredibly hard to be, like, totally kewl bruh—often communicates official positions through its subreddit and I want to ensure that information is included given its importance to the readers. It is not much of a surprise to me that Discord Inc. has not been more vocal about its refusal to open its source code, either, since it actively encourages open-source software and communities on its platform and opening its source has been a perennial proposal and complaint from its users. With all this in mind, how should I proceed in this specific case? More importantly, what policy or guideline improvement can we derive from this situation, since it seems technically unclear here?Thanks for your time. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 20:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- While it would be reliable for what the company reported, reliance on primary sources can create a neutrality problem. Information reported by a company may be misleading. It could be for example that the company intends to open its source, and made the statement in order to counter rumors. In that case we would be repeating false information, possibly to the detriment of the public. Fortunately, professional journalists are able to use judgment when reading company statements and determine whether they are credible. If a reliable source picks up a statement then it might be proper to report it. If the statement is questionable, one would expect the journalists to note that. TFD (talk) 02:39, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
An article from NYC Transit about NYC Subway signals published in a predatory journal
For context, I (epicgenius (talk)) haven't posted this edit. I wanted to put some details, with a source, into the Signaling of the New York City Subway. It was written by an employee for New York City Transit Authority, the operator of New York City Subway, as well as an employee for Parsons Brinckerhoff, a NYCTA contractor. However, when I tried to save the edit I got this: "Warning: An automated filter has identified this edit as introducing references to a predatory open access journal. If you are confident that you want to cite this source anyway, please click 'Publish changes' again. Note that citations to predatory journals are routinely removed."
- Source. https://www.witpress.com/Secure/elibrary/papers/9781845644949/9781845644949002FU1.pdf
- Article. Signaling of the New York City Subway (didn't actually save the edit)
- Content. Well, I haven't actually added it, but here was what I was going to add:
The MTA's form of CBTC uses a reduced form of the old fixed-block signaling system, which serves as an "auxiliary wayside system".[Witpress Source]: 16 On lines equipped with CBTC, this has resulted in increased maintenance costs for the double signaling system.[Another Source] When CBTC is in operation on a line, that line's block signals display a flashing green indicator.[Witpress Source]: 16
[...]
The CBTC contract was awarded to joint venture of Siemens, Union Switch & Signal, and L.K. Comstock & Company Inc. in late 1999. Installation of the signal system was begun in 2000.[Witpress Source]: 14
My question is, should I even use this source? epicgenius (talk) 22:31, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- If someone has tagged that as a predatory journal it is probably for a good reason. Predatory journals should mostly be avoided as they have little or no review of articles. If you want to add that information probably use a better source (which should be there if the content published has merit). Gotitbro (talk) 22:14, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
Horrorview.com
These diffs[15][16] makes me want to ask if Died with Boots On at Horrorview.com is a reliable (and notable) source. Especially since we have other sources saying it's a documentary. // Liftarn (talk) 11:02, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Liftarn:That does not appear to be a reliable source. Also, a mockumentary is a movie presented as a documentary. i.e., its fictional. From the description of this title (https://dvd.netflix.com/Movie/The-Atomic-Cafe/60022779) it just appears to be a compilation of different footage, it is not a mockumentary in its basic sense. Gotitbro (talk) 22:00, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
Kworb.net
I saw an user added to Wikipedia:CHART that this website kworb.net can be used to validate YouTube views and Spotify numbers. But nothing validates they post official data. For example, it claims "Look What You Made Me Do" did 49.9M views in one day, while Billboard said it did 43.2M. How many factual errors they "estimate" and post.. I believe that website should be avoided. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 18:09, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- It is a personal website/blog of someone (http://kworb.net/faq.html) which doesn't even site cite its data source. Unreliable, no editorial oversight should be avoided. Gotitbro (talk) 22:08, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- I concur; this is a rather dubious reference. Snuggums (talk / edits) 05:48, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
Reddit.com: Citations in 500+ articles
A search for "Reddit.com" pops up more than 500 citations in article space. I estimate that 85-90% of these cites are improper. (A small minority may fall under a WP:SELFPUB exception). Does anyone want to assist in culling through these and removing the bad ones? Neutralitytalk 23:28, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes this appears to be a problem, seen these pop-up for factual statements as well. I suspect removing all of them wouldn't cause much issues either. The only case where these might be appropriate are AMAs or Reddit announcements even then if such events are notable they would've gotten picked up by news outlets. In all, Reddit is a forum and shouldn't be cited. Gotitbro (talk) 04:50, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- crap. link search. that is a lot of work. Jytdog (talk) 03:55, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Help with assessing reliability of Ukrainian site used in Tetyana Ramus article
The article Tetyana Ramus draws extensively on http://ukrainka.org.ua/tetyana-ramus. Is there anyone with knowledge of Ukrainian who could offer an opinion on whether this is a reliable source? It looks a bit self-published to me, but I'm just judging by the general feel of the site without being able to read the content. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:29, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- based on the about page, people send in stuff and the website posts it. So it is WP:USERGENERATED, really. So not useable. Jytdog (talk) 03:52, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
European Aviation Safety Agency
I think I know the answer to this question, but would appreciate other views: at European Aviation Safety Agency, is this website an independent reliable source for a mass of detail about its rules and regulations? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:24, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- I think you are expecting a "no" :) That is what i say, anyway. Jytdog (talk) 03:51, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Roger Waters Controversy: Request for Comment
There is a RfC at the White Helmets Talk page which may interest people on this board. -GPRamirez5 (talk) 21:11, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
Nordstadtblogger.de
Google translation of the "about us" page
This is a small, German-language local news organization in the Northern District of Dortmund, Germany. Someone objected because of the word "blogger" in the name. They have an actual office, but it's a non-profit/volunteer organization. It's run by the former editor and editorial director of the Westfälische Rundschau, a mid-sized mainstream regional daily newspaper. Nordstadtblogger does general local news stories, with a focus on social themes. They tend to be in support of immigrants and against right-wing extremism.
I found an article where they received a civic award presented by the District Mayor, who described them as "experienced and competent journalists" who achieved "balanced, independent reporting", and "show how innovatively one can develop good journalism on the Internet without having large media groups behind them." The article also says "(Almost) All who write there have a sound journalistic education and often worked for decades in the editorial offices of the Westfälische Rundschau and the Westdeutsche Allgemeine Zeitung".
I've used this article about an exhibition at the Dortmund Museum for Art and Art History as a source for some basic facts about Münsterstraße, one of the main streets/neighborhoods in the district, which was the subject of the exhibition. It would also help show notability for Münsterstraße. So I'd like to get an opinion as to whether it could be considered a reliable source for this and for other typical local news reports, despite having "blogger" in the name. Thanks. --IamNotU (talk) 02:19, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- It is hyper-local and doesn't help with N. It seems fine otherwise to use. Jytdog (talk) 03:50, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Source: The Black Book of Communism, Harvard University Press, 1999, Cambridge, Massachusets, Londen, England.
Article: The Black Book of Communism
This book is a collective volume that combines the works of several experts in their fields. According to our criteria, each chapter is a secondary source. In addition to the chapters, the Book is supplemented with an introduction, where no independent research have been presented. The introduction draws conclusions from some data taken from BB chapters and has no reference list.
Is the introduction a secondary or tertiary source? --Paul Siebert (talk) 17:20, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Did you forget that you already posted very same question on this noticeboard, and it has been already dicussed? My very best wishes (talk) 18:50, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Repeating questions which have previously "asked and answered" is a bit of a waste of time. The "introduction" is, in large part, a scholarly summary of material contained within the book which has been deemed a "reliable source" by Wikipedia standards. It is no more "tertiary" than is
the lead of every single Wikipedia articleany introductory chapter to any scholarly book which is a reliable source as a result. Collect (talk) 19:16, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- I did that because I was advised to do so [17], and you are perfectly aware of that.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:04, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Galobtter, my question was not about the WP article about the BB, but about the introduction to this book authored by Courtois, and to the introduction to the English translation of this book. Are they considered secondary or tertiary sources if they just summarize the works of others.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:04, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes - I well ought to have said "is no more tertiary than scholarly summations found in other books" where the summation is by a person whose individual writings would be considered reliable sources." I have just read the "same stuff" in iterations such that I am a tad tired of such multiple bites at the apple. Collect (talk)
- The first chapter of the book (entitled "Introduction: The Crimes of Communism") is not an "editorial". It is no different from any other chapters of the book . This chapter (Introduction) cites 34 other secondary and primary sources (see pages 760, 761), as any other typical secondary source. This is a scientific review by Stéphane Courtois. Such sources are the best according to most strict requirements, such as WP:MEDRS. My very best wishes (talk) 19:33, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- I think outside editors will probably need more information to offer any helpful feedback. Everything is primary for something, and so it kind of depends on how the source is being used. The portions of the introduction that summarize or discuss subsequent chapters are probably secondary sources for the information in those chapters, but it would be primary for new ideas or analysis. Whether it's secondary or tertiary (or even primary) also doesn't necessarily matter for whether or not it is reliable. Nblund talk 22:35, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Carlo Troya at Origin of Romanians
At [18] Iovaniorgovan has inserted a book published in 1846 as if it were a WP:RS, which he also stated at [19]. Please chime in. Tgeorgescu (talk) 11:33, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Further question: can the 19th-century Troya be listed among the scholars who contributed to the development of the theories of the Romanians' ethnogenesis without verifying his place with references to reliable sources?Borsoka (talk) 12:11, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- "as if it were a WP:RS? Are you suggesting it's not?--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 12:18, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- No book published in 1846 is WP:RS. Tgeorgescu (talk) 12:32, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Agree. It is rather a primary source about the thoughts of a mid-19th-century historian. Borsoka (talk) 12:40, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Agree. And a secondary source would be necessary to show that this historian's opinion has any relevance. Jytdog (talk) 03:27, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- No problem, secondary source showing that this historian's opinion still has relevance will be used instead.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 07:08, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- No book published in 1846 is WP:RS. Tgeorgescu (talk) 12:32, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Cautionary note on Simon and Schuster who I've discovered also publish woowoo material
I've usually assumed they're ok. But Michael Tellinger, the discoverer of Adam's Calendar, most of whose books are self-published by Zulu Planet that seems to be owned by Tellinger.[20] has managed to get "Slave Species of the Gods:The Secret History of the Anunnaki and Their Mission on Earth" published by them.[21] The book on Adam's Calendar is published by Zulu Planet that seems to be owned by Tellinger.[22] Same publisher for "Temples of the African Gods" and "Ubuntu contributism". Doug Weller talk 13:22, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Statements of Fact Based on One Report from One Media Outlet, Sourced to Anonymous Sources
I was recently reverted here by DrFleischman. Originally They speak so often that one Trump adviser has said that Hannity "basically has a desk in the place."
, I tacked on , according to a Washington Post story.
. as it's a sensational claim that the article writers claim was claimed by an anonymous "presidential adviser," and the claim hasn't been verified by other news orgs (to my knowledge).
Fleischman performed a similar act here, arguing that Cristiano Lima's assertion that Hannity "echoes Trump's anti-media rhetoric and his attacks on the Russia inquiry."
should be treated as a fact, and stated as such in Wikipedia's voice. Since the source provides no proof or even evidence of this claim, I felt a "Cristiano Lima argues that" attribution is necessary, especially since Lima's claim is dubious to say the least and can be readily debunked.
Can we have some clarity to really nail down when it's acceptable to skip attribution and go ahead and allow journalists to be the final arbiters of facts on Wikipedia, please? Mr. Daniel Plainview (talk) 22:14, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Is this a content dispute or a conduct dispute? This board is for evaluating the reliability of sources. The sources in question are news articles from The Washington Post and Politico. Mr. Plainview has already acknowledged that these are reliable sources. However at least in the case of the Politico story, he wants in-text attribution in part because he contends that Politico is "leftist." (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:30, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- this revert, is to a change in the title in the citation. For pete's sake, look at what you both are actually doing. The revert was fine (but for the wrong reason) and the edit that was reverted, was idiotic and very obviously tendentious. That person is heading to a TBAN. Jytdog (talk) 03:20, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- as to this revert, i find generally that when you have a quote in the content, it should be attributed in the content. I also generally find that quotes are shitty writing and are often intended to be colorful. WP content should be neutral and should summarize the content, simply and neutrally (negative content can be summarized neutrally) Simply writing "Hannity often attacks mainstream media and attacks the Mueller investigation in ways similar to Trump." sourced to Politico, would be fine. Jytdog (talk) 03:24, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Malmö
Is this source reliable? It involves the former police chief of Malmö, Sweden talking about crime in Malmö to journalists from Breitbart news. --2001:8003:4023:D900:84FB:E76A:E25C:7CE6 (talk) 00:29, 23 May 2018 (UTC)