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*Jochim, Berthold K (1998). ''Oberst Hermann Graf: 200 Luftsiege in 13 Monaten Ein Jagdfliegerleben''. Rastatt, Germany: VPM Verlagsunion Pabel Moewig. ISBN 3-8118-1455-9. |
*Jochim, Berthold K (1998). ''Oberst Hermann Graf: 200 Luftsiege in 13 Monaten Ein Jagdfliegerleben''. Rastatt, Germany: VPM Verlagsunion Pabel Moewig. ISBN 3-8118-1455-9. |
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Berthold K. Jochim is a pen name of [[Franz Kurowski]], a known fabulist and apologist for the German war effort of 1939–45. By his own admission, he reserved his own name for "more serious work" and used his pseudonyms for largely semi-fictional accounts. Specific to the book in question, an editor, who is familiar with the source, noted: {{tq|I own the 1998 version and I think it more or less a piece of s***.}} Quoted from: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dapi89&oldid=516377691#Hermann_Graf]. I was not surprised at this assessment as the source was issued by Verlag Pabel Moewig, the publisher behind |
{{illm|Berthold K. Jochim|de|Bertold K. Jochim}} <s>is a pen name of [[Franz Kurowski]], a known fabulist and apologist for the German war effort of 1939–45. By his own admission, he reserved his own name for "more serious work" and used his pseudonyms for largely semi-fictional accounts. </s> <small>correction follows:</s> was the founder and long-term editor of the pulp series ''[[Der Landser]]''. Specific to the book in question, an editor, who is familiar with the source, noted: {{tq|The book is actually written by Franz Kurowski (under a different name). I own the 1998 version and I think it more or less a piece of s***.}} Quoted from: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dapi89&oldid=516377691#Hermann_Graf]. I was not surprised at this assessment as the source was issued by Verlag Pabel Moewig, the publisher behind ''Der Landser''. |
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In my opinion, the article fails several GA criteria: |
In my opinion, the article fails several GA criteria: |
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*'''Request for clarification from nominator''': could you pls provide some evidence that Jochim was a pen name of Kurowski? As it stands this appears to be the basis for the assertion that the referencing used here is unreliable and that it therefore does not meet the GA criteria; however, as several editors have pointed out above it seems likely (based on De Wikipedia at least) that they were actually two different authors altogether. If this assertion was in error then is there an issue here with the referencing at all? I'm assuming from the nomination statement that the implied criticism of the work remains regardless of who the author actually was given the publisher's alleged reputation, is that correct? As such is there any published criticism available on Jochim's unreliability specifically that you could provide a reference to? Unless there is something which can verify these concerns I don't think the case has been made here really. At any rate I note that another editor has already re-worked the article to reduce its reliance on Jochim anyway. [[User:Anotherclown|Anotherclown]] ([[User talk:Anotherclown|talk]]) 11:23, 13 July 2017 (UTC) |
*'''Request for clarification from nominator''': could you pls provide some evidence that Jochim was a pen name of Kurowski? As it stands this appears to be the basis for the assertion that the referencing used here is unreliable and that it therefore does not meet the GA criteria; however, as several editors have pointed out above it seems likely (based on De Wikipedia at least) that they were actually two different authors altogether. If this assertion was in error then is there an issue here with the referencing at all? I'm assuming from the nomination statement that the implied criticism of the work remains regardless of who the author actually was given the publisher's alleged reputation, is that correct? As such is there any published criticism available on Jochim's unreliability specifically that you could provide a reference to? Unless there is something which can verify these concerns I don't think the case has been made here really. At any rate I note that another editor has already re-worked the article to reduce its reliance on Jochim anyway. [[User:Anotherclown|Anotherclown]] ([[User talk:Anotherclown|talk]]) 11:23, 13 July 2017 (UTC) |
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:* furthermore, Jochim is not listed among Kurowski's pen names in the article on him (although it is listed in the box), much of which was edited by {{user|K.e.coffman}}. After reading that article, I'm inclined to tag it for POV problems, because of its use of loaded words ("highly exaggerated numbers", for example) . Second, such phrases as "nationalist battle painting" are unclear, -- how is this different from [[:de:Hugo Ungewitter]], [[Carl Röchling]], [[Richard Knötel]], for example? And how is this different from the images of, for example, the Confederate painter, [[Conrad Wise Chapman]]? [[User:Auntieruth55|auntieruth]] [[User talk:Auntieruth55|(talk)]] 13:46, 13 July 2017 (UTC) |
:* furthermore, Jochim is not listed among Kurowski's pen names in the article on him (although it is listed in the box), much of which was edited by {{user|K.e.coffman}}. After reading that article, I'm inclined to tag it for POV problems, because of its use of loaded words ("highly exaggerated numbers", for example) . Second, such phrases as "nationalist battle painting" are unclear, -- how is this different from [[:de:Hugo Ungewitter]], [[Carl Röchling]], [[Richard Knötel]], for example? And how is this different from the images of, for example, the Confederate painter, [[Conrad Wise Chapman]]? [[User:Auntieruth55|auntieruth]] [[User talk:Auntieruth55|(talk)]] 13:46, 13 July 2017 (UTC) |
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====Clarification re: nomination==== |
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*Sorry about the confusion; it was my fault. I made the corrections above, and in the Kurowski article. I saw MisterBee's comment {{tq|The book is actually written by Franz Kurowski (under a different name)}} and had assumed it was a pseudonym. I'm curious as to how MB came to the conclusion that Kurowski wrote the book. It's ''not'' impossible that Kurowski had indeed done so, as he had written for ''Der Landser''' himself, both under his name and various pseudonyms, while Jochim was the founder and long-term editor of the series. |
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:In any case, a source from the ''Der Landser'' founder / editor cannot be presumed to be reliable. Quoting from the linked article, ''Der Landser'' was described by ''[[Der Spiegel]]'' as "the expert journal for the whitewashing of the Wehrmacht" ("Fachorgan für die Verklärung der Wehrmacht"). [[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 01:28, 14 July 2017 (UTC) |
Revision as of 01:28, 14 July 2017
Hermann Graf
- Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • • Most recent review
- Result pending
Nomination
Much of the subject's war-time career is cited to:
- Jochim, Berthold K (1998). Oberst Hermann Graf: 200 Luftsiege in 13 Monaten Ein Jagdfliegerleben. Rastatt, Germany: VPM Verlagsunion Pabel Moewig. ISBN 3-8118-1455-9.
Berthold K. Jochim is a pen name of Franz Kurowski, a known fabulist and apologist for the German war effort of 1939–45. By his own admission, he reserved his own name for "more serious work" and used his pseudonyms for largely semi-fictional accounts. correction follows: was the founder and long-term editor of the pulp series Der Landser. Specific to the book in question, an editor, who is familiar with the source, noted: The book is actually written by Franz Kurowski (under a different name). I own the 1998 version and I think it more or less a piece of s***.
Quoted from: [1]. I was not surprised at this assessment as the source was issued by Verlag Pabel Moewig, the publisher behind Der Landser.
In my opinion, the article fails several GA criteria:
- Criterion 2 -- Verifiable: all in-line citations are from reliable sources
- Criterion 3 -- Broad in its coverage: it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail
- Criterion 4 -- Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each
I was unable to locate alternate sources on the subject that are reliable and neutral and provide the same level of detail. I don't believe it's possible to improve the article through normal editing for it to retain GA status and remain broad in coverage.
I'm thus nominating the article for community reassessment. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:34, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
Discussion
I have the Bergstrom, Antipov & Sundin book and am gradually working through it verifying the details. I am positive a lot of the facts cited can also be referenced out of that volume. Though it looks like a fair portion of the wiki-article's early paragraphs may need to be rewritten a little to avoid claims of direct copying from the B/A/S book Philby NZ (talk) 22:49, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- Interesting. How close is it to B/A/S book? K.e.coffman (talk) 23:25, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
@User:Ian Rose Hi, per your revert, is there some middle ground? This seems a little overly wordy to say he did flight training between x and y dates that would cover the the things you would expect a pilot to do? Cinderella157 (talk) 12:58, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- I'm struggling to understand the nom's claim that "much of the subject's war-time career is cited to Jochim" when only 9 of the 38 wartime sources cite Jochim and that period only covers a year when he fought against the Soviet Union. Even if we are really convinced that everything that Jochim says has been made up, it would still seem more constructive to seek alternative sources for that short period, rather than downgrading the whole article. Bermicourt (talk) 19:05, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
K.e. coffman, if Kurowski and Jochim are the same person, then what's up with the different German wikipedia entries, which say that Kurowski died in 2011 and Jochim died in 2002? Kges1901 (talk) 20:10, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
I've now updated with reference additions & details from Bergstrom, Antipov & Sundin for his early life and the 1939-1940 years of the war. I've taken out a bit of text which adds standard detail that can be found linking to other relevant articles. I've also reworded a few phrases which may be construed as overly emotive and/or too close to the original Bergstrom et al text. Comments welcome if you think these are improvements to the article or in fact denigrate the Good Article status that it holds now (which I certainly don't want to do). I'll be getting onto the Russian Front part of his career next from the same source. Philby NZ (talk) 21:04, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- I'm rereading this article after having edited it for grammar yonks ago. It seems to me, as to Bermicourt (talk · contribs) that the citations to are minimal in the larger scheme of the article. Second, these are citations to fact, not to opinion. It is not Jochim's opinion that Graf shot down this plane or that plane, but his facts. Philby NZ (talk · contribs) seems to have confirmed the veracity of much of Jochim's citations vis a vis Bergstrom in the earlier sections. I agree with changes that reduce some of the "emotive" sections.
- relating to Kges1901 (talk · contribs)'s question, why are there two completely different biographies in the German wikipedia for Kurowski and Jochim? These are not just slightly different, but radically different, from birth to death. And just if they are one and the same man, does this mean that the work he wrote as one is superior to the work he did as another, or that either or both should be discarded simply because he was a fabulist? I'd like to know who claims he was a fabulist, and why it should be assumed that anything he writes about Nazis generally and Graf particularly should be discarded for this reason?
- Generally, on the subject of pen names: anyone who reads Napoleonic war era stuff probably knows that Digby Smith also wrote as Otto von Pivka. He chose to use a pen name (he claims) because he was writing while he was in the military. I don't know why Kurowski possibly used a pen name, and I'd certainly say that Smith's work as himself is far superior to his work as Pivka. That said, the works he wrote under the pen name are not exactly chopped liver, though. auntieruth (talk) 22:17, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- @K.e.coffman: This is really a serious discrepancy – I've done some googling and found this Kurowski German Digital Library Catalog entry, which states that Kurowski died on 28 May 2011 in Dortmund. Note that Jochim is not listed here as one of Kurowski's pseudonyms. Meanwhile, the German wiki article on Jochim references an August 2004 journal article about "Landser-Pulp" in Jugend Medien Schutz-Report (apparently a German publication on the protection of youth from bad influences). The title of the article as used in the German wiki reference says that Jochim lived from 1921 to 2002. On page 8 of a later issue of the same journal, the author of the 2004 article repeats the information that Jochim died in 2002. So it seems clear that Jochim and Kurowski are two completely different people. Kges1901 (talk) 22:53, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Comment—regarding sources, the state information system of Baden-Württemberg website leobw names the following sources:
- Gerhard von Seemen, Die Ritterkreuzträger 1939-1945. Bad Nauheim 1955
- Fritz Walter, Elf rote Jäger. 1957; Die Roten Jäger. Ein Schicksalsbericht deutscher Nationalspieler aus dem letzten Kriege. Broschüre, Hg. Ernst Heuner, o. J.
- Oberst Hermann Graf. 200 Luftsiege in 13 Monaten. Ein Jagdfliegerleben nacherzählt von Berthold K. Joachim. 1975, 5. Aufl. 1985
- Günter Fraschka, Mit Schwertern und Brillanten. Die Träger der höchsten deutschen Tapferkeitsauszeichnung, darin S. 65-76: „Oberst Hermann Graf: Fliegen, Kämpfen, Fußballspielen.“ Wiesbaden- München (7. Aufl. 1977)
- Berichte des Oberkommandos der Wehrmacht 1939-1945. Bd. 3. München (1988)
- Also it is not a valid reason to say "an editor, who is familiar with the source, noted: I own the 1998 version and I think it more or less a piece of s***."
- I have a wider concern that K.E. Coffman's very extensive work on Germany during the Second World war seems to me to lack objectivity and be focussed on portraying Germans and Germany in an excessively negative light; far worse than is warranted by the historical evidence. Nazism was an evil, but we should tell it like it is, neither exaggerating nor playing it down. --Bermicourt (talk) 10:31, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- The editor who stated that Jochim's book was s*** was now-retired User:MisterBee1966, who wrote most of the World War II German military biography articles. MisterBee does come back occasionally and I've emailed him on this issue so that he may clarify whether the entire book (including unit history) was s*** or just its conclusions. Kges1901 (talk) 11:31, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Misterbee has responded. Here's his email: "Regarding the book in question, I believe the book to be reasonably accurate regarding facts such as when where and how. I consider the book by Bergström to be superior and of higher quality. But this is just my amature opinion." Kges1901 (talk) 11:43, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- The editor who stated that Jochim's book was s*** was now-retired User:MisterBee1966, who wrote most of the World War II German military biography articles. MisterBee does come back occasionally and I've emailed him on this issue so that he may clarify whether the entire book (including unit history) was s*** or just its conclusions. Kges1901 (talk) 11:31, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Request for clarification from nominator: could you pls provide some evidence that Jochim was a pen name of Kurowski? As it stands this appears to be the basis for the assertion that the referencing used here is unreliable and that it therefore does not meet the GA criteria; however, as several editors have pointed out above it seems likely (based on De Wikipedia at least) that they were actually two different authors altogether. If this assertion was in error then is there an issue here with the referencing at all? I'm assuming from the nomination statement that the implied criticism of the work remains regardless of who the author actually was given the publisher's alleged reputation, is that correct? As such is there any published criticism available on Jochim's unreliability specifically that you could provide a reference to? Unless there is something which can verify these concerns I don't think the case has been made here really. At any rate I note that another editor has already re-worked the article to reduce its reliance on Jochim anyway. Anotherclown (talk) 11:23, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- furthermore, Jochim is not listed among Kurowski's pen names in the article on him (although it is listed in the box), much of which was edited by K.e.coffman (talk · contribs). After reading that article, I'm inclined to tag it for POV problems, because of its use of loaded words ("highly exaggerated numbers", for example) . Second, such phrases as "nationalist battle painting" are unclear, -- how is this different from de:Hugo Ungewitter, Carl Röchling, Richard Knötel, for example? And how is this different from the images of, for example, the Confederate painter, Conrad Wise Chapman? auntieruth (talk) 13:46, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Clarification re: nomination
- Sorry about the confusion; it was my fault. I made the corrections above, and in the Kurowski article. I saw MisterBee's comment
The book is actually written by Franz Kurowski (under a different name)
and had assumed it was a pseudonym. I'm curious as to how MB came to the conclusion that Kurowski wrote the book. It's not impossible that Kurowski had indeed done so, as he had written for Der Landser' himself, both under his name and various pseudonyms, while Jochim was the founder and long-term editor of the series.
- In any case, a source from the Der Landser founder / editor cannot be presumed to be reliable. Quoting from the linked article, Der Landser was described by Der Spiegel as "the expert journal for the whitewashing of the Wehrmacht" ("Fachorgan für die Verklärung der Wehrmacht"). K.e.coffman (talk) 01:28, 14 July 2017 (UTC)