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:::Good job with the structure. The section on the Warring States should now be placed under the "Pre-imperial era." One possible issue with the new content: Hao was a capital of the Western Zhou. There may have been a Shang capital of the same name, but I don't know about it. Teen: could you insert the character for Hao in the text so that we can judge (or correct the pinyin if necessary)? And why keep relying on "Li and Zheng" - who have been proven wrong countless times - when you can use the ''[http://books.google.com/books?id=cHA7Ey0-pbEC&dq=cambridge+history+of+ancient+china&hl=zh-CN&source=gbs_navlinks_s Cambridge History of Ancient China]'' on Google Books? Try keyword searches (well-field, millet, slaves, etc.) and you'll get all the references you need! More comments later. [[User:Madalibi|Madalibi]] ([[User talk:Madalibi|talk]]) 02:34, 31 August 2009 (UTC) |
:::Good job with the structure. The section on the Warring States should now be placed under the "Pre-imperial era." One possible issue with the new content: Hao was a capital of the Western Zhou. There may have been a Shang capital of the same name, but I don't know about it. Teen: could you insert the character for Hao in the text so that we can judge (or correct the pinyin if necessary)? And why keep relying on "Li and Zheng" - who have been proven wrong countless times - when you can use the ''[http://books.google.com/books?id=cHA7Ey0-pbEC&dq=cambridge+history+of+ancient+china&hl=zh-CN&source=gbs_navlinks_s Cambridge History of Ancient China]'' on Google Books? Try keyword searches (well-field, millet, slaves, etc.) and you'll get all the references you need! More comments later. [[User:Madalibi|Madalibi]] ([[User talk:Madalibi|talk]]) 02:34, 31 August 2009 (UTC) |
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::::Just a detail: the claim (now deleted) that the character ''tian'' 田 originated in the Zhou period was referred to "Li and Zheng (2001), 98" (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Economic_history_of_China_(pre-1911)&diff=310703592&oldid=310703385 here], for example). Now the correct claim that this character originated in the Shang is referred to "Li and Zheng (2001), 63" (note 14). If Li and Zheng are making such contradictory claims, then I have lost the little remaining trust I had in Li and Zheng. If the mistake is from an editor, then I don't know what to think... [[User:Madalibi|Madalibi]] ([[User talk:Madalibi|talk]]) 02:52, 31 August 2009 (UTC) |
Revision as of 02:52, 31 August 2009
Economic history of China (pre-1911)
- Nominator(s): Teeninvestor (talk) 15:26, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
- Featured article candidates/Economic history of China (pre-1911)/archive1
- Featured article candidates/Economic history of China (pre-1911)/archive2
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Over the course of the last 8 months, I have expanded this article from a stub to a GA and have extensively worked on it, adding sources and text. With a successful GA nomination and three copyedits, I believe this article meets all of the FA criteria and would be a worthy addition to the list of wikipedia's featured articles.Teeninvestor (talk) 15:26, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
- I believe the uppercase P in Pre-1911 should be lower. If others agree, please do not just change it; let someone knowledgeable get all the pieces in the right place and correct the name on the FAC page at the same time. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:41, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
- Wonderful. In spite of my request not to do so, someone moved the article without correcting the FAC pages. Does anyone have time to fix all of this? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:18, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose
- Way too many headers
- At least 15 one-, two-, or three-line paragraphs. Can you either expand or may be, merge and flow them properly
- The lists have long sentences and so theymust be made into prose.
- "See also" looks redundant
- All ALTs are faulty with wikilinks, full similarity to captions and unwanted details like dynasties, painters, painting and other raw material, years, places, war, museum, engineering stuff, useless facts (world's first paper money - was introduced during the Song dynasty), technical words (taotie motif).
- Warring states map has the worst ALT.
Hometech (talk) 16:28, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I've addressed the above issues by converting the lists into prose and pruning the see also section. Another editor is responsible for the alt text(I didn't do most of them) and soon they should be fixed. This article has a very broad subject, so it must address a lot of subjects in each dynasty. Therefore, I believe the number of headers is justified. I've identified and merged many smaller paragraphs as well. Feel free to suggest more changes.Teeninvestor (talk) 17:12, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
As far as I can see there is no alt text anywhere in the article. It needs to be added, as per WP:ALT.Please see the "alt text" button in the toolbax at the upper right of this review page. Eubulides (talk) 07:40, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
- I've added ALT text to every image in the article.Teeninvestor (talk) 18:40, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for doing all that. The alt text is pretty good, but with all those images there are some problems that need fixing:
For File:China 2c.jpg the alt text focuses on irrelevant details (e.g., the colors used on the map). These details should be replaced by the useful info that the map conveys to the reader, e.g., north central China is highlighted and contains several names ranging from YAN on the north cost to YU on the central coast, and then inland on the rivers (or perhaps you can think of a better way of communicating the gist).Please see WP:ALT#Maps.For File:Chinese Boddhisattva statue.jpg the alt text says only that the statue is a buddha. A bit more detail should be given about the visual appearance: I noticed that it's the Buddha standing, and that the focus is on his hands, and the alt text should probably mention that. Please see WP:ALT#Essence.Similarly, for File:China coin1.JPG the only useful info is "numerous coins", which is too terse. What do the coins look like? Omit the backdrop; that's not important here.- Similarly, for File:Yuan Dynasty - waterwheels and smelting.png.
By the way, its alt text is missing the leading "alt=", which means it isn't working. The following phrases are redundant, either with other parts of the alt text or with the caption, and should be be removed or reworded as per WP:ALT#Repetition: "A glazed figurine of a camel and a bearded merchant" (this is the worst case: the alt text conveys no useful info that's not already in the caption), "a painting of two women", "in the foreground", "A painting depicting", "Portrait of", "A drawing of" (actually, it's not a drawing; but just remove the phrase since the caption says what it is), "A painting depicting", "A painting depciting" [sic],The following phrases can't be verified by a non-expert who is looking only at the image, and should be removed as per WP:ALT#Verifiability: " signifying its origin from the Kaiyuan era"There are two images of banknotes, and they look different, but one cannot tell the differences from the alt text. A bit more detail would help the visually impaired reader know the difference.The phrase "A black and white photograph of" isn't that useful and should be removed as per WP:ALT#Phrases to avoid.
- Eubulides (talk) 21:50, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for doing all that. The alt text is pretty good, but with all those images there are some problems that need fixing:
- I've made all the changes mentioned by User:Eubulides.Teeninvestor (talk) 12:51, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for doing that. I patched it a bit more to catch most of the remaining gotchas I noticed. However, the alt text for the waterwheel and blast furnace image is still a problem. It still mostly duplicates the caption, and it's not accurate: the workers are not operating the waterwheels or the blast furnace. Suppose you're blind and want to know how they hooked up that waterwheel to that blast furnace: what info would you want to know about that image? Please write that down. Eubulides (talk) 22:27, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose: For now, due to the issues raised above. Additionally, the occurence of a reference before punctuation doesn't fill me with confidence about the rest of the article; the "Economy History of China" needs to be in bold. The critical problem with the article is the depth to which it explores so many issues. An Encyclopedia must be able to be both concise and comprehensive. Unfortunately, though the article has a wealth of good content, it tries to cover everything in equal measure. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 18:44, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
- P has been changed to lower case. Also, can you please kindly point out where you find a "reference before punctation"? Cause I can't see it. As for other issues, see above.Teeninvestor (talk) 11:59, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
- It's been changed now, if you look at the revision of the article prior to my comments you will notice it immediately, I certainly did. That still doesn't address my primary concern (see my last point). MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 13:26, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
- MasterofHisOwnDomain, this article is actually only about 113Kb, which is very small considering the scope of its subject. For example, the "Ming Dynasty" article which covers just a single Chinese dynasty, has a total size of 141KB, which is larger than this article who covers all Chinese economic history! As for the article covering too much content, this article is after all covering all of Chinese economic history, some 4,000 years, and in order to satisfy FA Criteria about broadth of coverage we must include many things. Effort has already been made(see previous copyedits) to address the salient parts of the article.Teeninvestor (talk) 13:30, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not disputing the size of the article, I'm disputing the conciseness and comprihensiveness of the article. For example, from the first header, the economy is not even discussed until the fifth sentence. It discusses the formation of Chinese civilization and then the government system. If I was reading this and wanting to know about the economic history of China, I would expect it to start with the economic history of China and start as it means to go on. A sizeable portion of the content is redundant. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 20:23, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, MasterOfHisOwnDomain, the first few sentences establish that early China was a feudal system, which is very important for the reader to be put into perspective. Feudalism was an economic more than a political system; it meant that peasants were self-sufficient, didn't produce for the market, and there could be no land exchange with violent force. This lays a very important foundation for the rest of the section, as the economic progress of the era is discussed with this context. In order to discuss the economic history of China(or any other country), other thing such as history, wars(they damage the economy) and government policies have to be discussed as well as they affect the economy. Do you not think that this article covers all the relevant facts about the premodern Chinese economy?Teeninvestor (talk) 12:57, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose: there are lots of content issues to address. For a start, let me summarize here a message I put on the article's talk page on August 10. My points are about the first section on the Xia, Shang, and Zhou dynasties.
- Speaking of the "Xia dynasty" is controversial. Some historians (mostly Chinese) accept its existence, but many don't, and say instead that it's a myth. A good Wikipedia article should mention this controversy instead of presenting one side of it as self-evident.
Instead of saying that a Xia site has been found at Erlitou (not "Erli"), the wiki should discuss the economy of the "Erlitou culture" and then say that some historians have identified this site with the possibly mythical Xia dynasty. The chariot appeared in archeological records in 1200 BC in the tombs of the Shang kings at Anyang. There is no archeological evidence for the existence of any kind of wheeled vehicle in Shang territory prior to that. Saying that "The first chariots were invented during the Xia dynasty" is complete fantasy. (Incidentally, at least five scholars I've read agree that the Shang adopted the chariot from outside peoples who lived either to the north or northwest of the Shang, so even saying that the chariot was "invented" in such-and-such a dynasty is inaccurate.)Agriculture in "Xia," Shang, and Zhou times was based on millet, not rice. Rice dominated the Yangzi River valley, not the Yellow River valley, where "Xia," Shang and Zhou were mostly based.Domesticated animals included the dog.- Even the historians who believe that the "well-field system" (jingtian 井田) existed (another controversy that should be explained) never say that it existed under the "Xia dynasty." They say it existed a thousand years later, under the Western Zhou (ca. 1045-771) and into the Eastern Zhou (771-256 BCE).
Nobody knows anything specific about the social and economic organization of the "Xia dynasty." Saying that "Xia agriculture relied on a feudal system where the landowner gave 50 mu of land to his serfs in exchange for cultivation of 5 mu of his own land" is far too specific to be based on archeological evidence, the only kind of evidence we have for pre-Shang times.- It's not completely clear when bronze swords became obsolete, but they were still widely used in the Spring and Autumn period. They were thoroughly replaced by steel weapons at the very end of the Warring States period.
- Speaking of the "Xia dynasty" is controversial. Some historians (mostly Chinese) accept its existence, but many don't, and say instead that it's a myth. A good Wikipedia article should mention this controversy instead of presenting one side of it as self-evident.
All these errors are fairly basic, and they show (once again) how unreliable "Li and Zheng" are.The Cambridge History of Ancient China provides much better explanations of all the processes described in this page.The general structure of the article is problematic. The "Feudal-Absolutist-Mercantilist" structure smuggles a strong POV interpretation of economic development into the article without grounding it in reliable sources. Until we can think of a more justifiable structure, we may have to revert to a boring chronological outline that goes dynasty by dynasty.- Madalibi (talk) 05:36, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
- More comments (on references, this time).
As a reader, I'm immediately turned off by the claims made in the first lines of the article, and especially by the references that are cited to support these claims. The first six endnotes send the reader to a church website (note 4), 4 magazine articles about recent economic development in China (notes 1, 2, 3, and 6), and one factsheet (note 5).Note 1 is an article by an Indian author concerned with "Ensuring China's peaceful rise." Nothing tells me why I should trust this author about the size of the Chinese economy before 1900.Note 2 leads to an abstract on "China and the Knowledge Economy" in the 21st century. Same comment as for Note 1.- Note 3 is an article on modern economic issues that cites The Economist as saying that "China was the largest economy for much of recorded history." The reference is to page 5 of "A Survey of the World Economy - The Real Great Leap Forward," which was published in the Economist in October 2004. If we want to keep this note, we should at least cite the article in the Economist, where the original claim was found.
But as with Notes 1 and 2, I see no reason why we should trust the Economist on historical issues. Note 4 sends to a site that promotes "the mission of the Worldwide Church of God." Clearly not a reliable source.- Note 5 refers to a factsheet that cites "Financial Times"
(no author, no date) as claiming that China had the largest economy in the world for 18 of the last 20 centuries. - Note 6 is an editorial in the Financial Times by former Hong Kong Governor Chris Patten claiming that China had the largest economy in the world for 18 of the last 20 centuries. This article is clearly the article that is cited so vaguely in note 5. Note 5 is redundant and should be deleted. The claim that China had the largest economy for 18 of the last 20 centuries therefore rests on the sole authority of Chris Patten, who is not a scholar in the field of Chinese economic history and who cites no data or scholarship to support his claim.
In other words, none of these sources is from an authority on the economic history of China. Magazine articles can sometimes be considered as reliable sources (especially in wikis that discuss current affairs), but why rely on current-affairs magazines when writing about 4000 years of Chinese economic history?I'm ready to accept that China had one of the largest economies on Earth for most of the last 20 centuries. This claim could even be considered common sense. But in my opinion an encyclopedic article cannot rely only on a few magazine articles to claim that China had the largest economy on Earth for most of world history, or that its economy was the largest for 18 of the last 20 centuries (i.e., from 1 CE to 1800 CE). To justify this kind of claim, we need scholarly works on Chinese economic history.- Madalibi (talk) 10:47, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
- More comments (on references, this time).
I've made several changes addressing Madalibi's concerns. Statements have been added that include the alternative viewpoint that Xia didn't exist, and removed several references to chariots and agriculture during the Xia. As well, mentions to domesticated dogs and millets were included. In addition, I changed absolutist to early imperial era and mercantilist to late imperial era, to address madalibi's concerns. I've also changed largest economy to one of the largest eocnomies per Madalibi's concerns.Teeninvestor (talk) 12:15, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
- Additional comments: Thanks for solving some of these problems quickly, teeninvestor! I've crossed out the issues that have been resolved. Here's more on the remaining ones.
- I don't think the Xia issue has been solved yet. The article still poses the Xia as having existed for sure (see lead paragraph), and says that Erlitou may have been a Xia site. The point should be instead that there were organized polities before the Shang, that traditional Chinese historiography claims that this period was dominated by the Xia dynasty, and that some modern historians accept this identification, but that many also doubt it and claim that the "Xia dynasty" is mythical.
How about replacing the "Feudal Era" with the "Pre-imperial Era" to match the new sections on the "Early Imperial" and "Late Imperial" eras? "Feudalism" is a huge can of worms. Most Chinese historians call "feudal" everything from the Western Zhou (1045-771 BCE) to the Qing (1644-1912)! They use "feudal" to refer to a mode of production. Some Western historians like Derk Bodde have instead argued that the Western Zhou had a political system akin to that of feudalism in medieval Europe. Most Chinese historians call the Xia a "primitive society" and the Shang a "slave society," not feudal societies. Western historians usually ignore these vague terms altogether. Because of this, I would say get rid of the name "feudal" in the section title and be very careful how you use it in the text.For the reason just outlined, a statement like "Early China had a feudal society similar to that of Europe in the Middle Ages" is far too vague. Bodde made this point about the political system of the Western Zhou, not about its economic system. "Early China" could refer to any time until the Han. The wiki cites Chinese historians who use the term "feudal" in an economic sense, yet defines "feudalism" in political terms with lords and vassals.For the article to be comprehensive, it should probably address the Chinese argument (inspired by Marxism) that the Shang was a "slave society." Many Chinese historians disagree with this characterization, and so do most Western historians, who agree that there were slaves in Shang times, but that productive activities did not rely on them for the most part.Another point that could deserve mention is that the Shang already traded with distant regions to their north and northwest (we know that from objects found in tombs).- "Jintian" (the well-field system) should be Jingtian throughout. The "well-field system" would be even better, since this is English Wikipedia. The Encyclopedia Britannica has a brief article on the "well-field system" that explains the basics of what we know about it. This could be one more source for our wiki.
- The reader should be reminded that the Jingtian system may not have existed at all. As the Encyclopedia Britannica claims, the well-field system was first mentioned in the works of Mencius (4th century BCE) as an ideal production system. Some evidence from bronze inscriptions supports its existence, but the jingtian system shouldn't be given so much presence in this wiki without at least a mention of its contested existence.
A mistake should be corrected: the character tian 田 did not appear under the Zhou, but under the Shang. It is attested in oracle bones.- I just realized that the whole Xia-Shang-Zhou section is organized by themes. It goes back and forth in time as new topics are addressed. This can be very confusing. I think this section would be clearer if it were re-organized into three parts: "pre-Shang" (with discussion of the possible existence of the Xia), "Shang," and "Western Zhou." This arrangement would make all the above issues easier to discuss. The Xia would be explained in one place instead of four. You could discuss Shang "slavery" and distant trade, as well as its bronze and silk "industries" together. The section on the Zhou would then address the possible beginning of the "well-field system," the growth of cities, etc. Recurrent themes like cities and millet-centered agriculture would also belong to the section's introductory paragraph. What do you think?
Finally, watch out for typos and incomplete words when adding text! I see a "whta" that should be "what" and a "How" that should be "However" (or should disappear altogether). "Millet" is capitalized in the middle of a sentence, and so is "Alcohol" a little below. Another typo: "recirds" (should be "records").
Ok, I'll stop here for tonight!Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 14:41, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
- I've addressed all of the issues above except for seperating the section into three sections. The reason for not doing so is that there si so little material in the entire section(it is the smallest section), that seperating it would cause three sections with little to no content, and massive repetition. Three seperate sections were tried before(See about 4 months ago) but it didn't work out too well. I also fixed note 5 and 3 as well.Teeninvestor (talk) 15:18, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
- Good job with the structure. The section on the Warring States should now be placed under the "Pre-imperial era." One possible issue with the new content: Hao was a capital of the Western Zhou. There may have been a Shang capital of the same name, but I don't know about it. Teen: could you insert the character for Hao in the text so that we can judge (or correct the pinyin if necessary)? And why keep relying on "Li and Zheng" - who have been proven wrong countless times - when you can use the Cambridge History of Ancient China on Google Books? Try keyword searches (well-field, millet, slaves, etc.) and you'll get all the references you need! More comments later. Madalibi (talk) 02:34, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- Just a detail: the claim (now deleted) that the character tian 田 originated in the Zhou period was referred to "Li and Zheng (2001), 98" (see here, for example). Now the correct claim that this character originated in the Shang is referred to "Li and Zheng (2001), 63" (note 14). If Li and Zheng are making such contradictory claims, then I have lost the little remaining trust I had in Li and Zheng. If the mistake is from an editor, then I don't know what to think... Madalibi (talk) 02:52, 31 August 2009 (UTC)