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====Participant's Statements==== |
====Participant's Statements==== |
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I am not against that it is mentioned that the YPG is accused of war crimes. It is also stated in the article that the UN denies such claims. If a claim made it to the UN it is fair to be mentioned. War crimes as such, are also not included in the Washington Post quote in dispute. This is what I mean, with not cooperating in the discussion. The answers of the opponents are about anything else, but not about what the dispute is actually about. Let's talk about the mention that the Kurds "unilaterally" detached it from the Raqqa Governorate, which territory at the time wasn't even governed by a Governor, but by ISIS. And about the Tel Abyad plate at the entrance of the city. There it is mentioned Welcome to Tell Abiad. [https://www.syriahr.com/en/152110/ Here from 2 January 2020], [https://www.syriahr.com/en/140765/ here from September 2019], and [https://arabic.rt.com/news/785916-سوريا-تركيا-تل-أبيض-داعش/ here from 2015]. It is the same plate the PYD used, which the Turks now use as well. There are hundreds of articles of the PYD/SDF mentioning Tell Abyad. [https://sdf-press.com/en/2019/06/the-forces-of-tal-abyad-announced-the-establishment-of-their-military-council/ here], [http://pydrojava.net/english/2020/05/31/afrin-for-its-people-and-it-will-be-home-to-peace-as-it-was-before-the-turkish-invasion/ here], [http://pydrojava.net/english/2016/02/27/from-turkey-and-raqqa-isis-launches-fierce-attacks-on-tal-abyad/ here], these are all so called official PYD or SDF websites. The name of the city was not changed from Tel Abyad into Gire Spi, it was just allowed to write the Kurdish name as well. Please for the rest of the discussion,. focus on Latin/arab script, the name of the town as stated above, and then Tell Abyad "unilaterally" detached from Raqqa Governorate. "Unilaterally" is the term in dispute. Latin/arab script are well known to the Syrians from before the AANES rule, and a town governed by ISIS was sure not "unilaterally" detached from the Raqqa Governorate. If it was detached from anything at the year 2015, it was detached from ISIS ruled territory, and ISIS detached it from the Raqqa Governorate before. Tell Abyad was just made an own canton within the AANES. As it is stated in the article. Sorry for the long answer and the repetition of the arguments, but maybe not all involved in the dispute were able to read my statements at the Tell Abyad talk page.[[User:Paradise Chronicle|Paradise Chronicle]] ([[User talk:Paradise Chronicle|talk]]) 22:00, 6 July 2020 (UTC) |
I am not against that it is mentioned that the YPG is accused of war crimes. It is also stated in the article that the UN denies such claims. If a claim made it to the UN it is fair to be mentioned. War crimes as such, are also not included in the Washington Post quote in dispute. This is what I mean, with not cooperating in the discussion. The answers of the opponents are about anything else, but not about what the dispute is actually about. Let's talk about the mention that the Kurds "unilaterally" detached it from the Raqqa Governorate, which territory at the time wasn't even governed by a Governor, but by ISIS. And about the Tel Abyad plate at the entrance of the city. There it is mentioned Welcome to Tell Abiad. [https://www.syriahr.com/en/152110/ Here from 2 January 2020], [https://www.syriahr.com/en/140765/ here from September 2019], and [https://arabic.rt.com/news/785916-سوريا-تركيا-تل-أبيض-داعش/ here from 2015]. It is the same plate the PYD used, which the Turks now use as well. There are hundreds of articles of the PYD/SDF mentioning Tell Abyad. [https://sdf-press.com/en/2019/06/the-forces-of-tal-abyad-announced-the-establishment-of-their-military-council/ here], [http://pydrojava.net/english/2020/05/31/afrin-for-its-people-and-it-will-be-home-to-peace-as-it-was-before-the-turkish-invasion/ here], [http://pydrojava.net/english/2016/02/27/from-turkey-and-raqqa-isis-launches-fierce-attacks-on-tal-abyad/ here], these are all so called official PYD or SDF websites. The name of the city was not changed from Tel Abyad into Gire Spi, it was just allowed to write the Kurdish name as well. Please for the rest of the discussion,. focus on Latin/arab script, the name of the town as stated above, and then Tell Abyad "unilaterally" detached from Raqqa Governorate. "Unilaterally" is the term in dispute. Latin/arab script are well known to the Syrians from before the AANES rule, and a town governed by ISIS was sure not "unilaterally" detached from the Raqqa Governorate. If it was detached from anything at the year 2015, it was detached from ISIS ruled territory, and ISIS detached it from the Raqqa Governorate before. Tell Abyad was just made an own canton within the AANES. As it is stated in the article. Sorry for the long answer and the repetition of the arguments, but maybe not all involved in the dispute were able to read my statements at the Tell Abyad talk page.[[User:Paradise Chronicle|Paradise Chronicle]] ([[User talk:Paradise Chronicle|talk]]) 22:00, 6 July 2020 (UTC) |
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====Moderator's 3rd statement=== |
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Okay- so the war crimes issue is not part of this, then lets drop it and if the person discussing that issue wishes an DRN for that issue, they can open one. The word unilaterally comes from the Washington post quote correct? And that is a direct quote of what they said- so we really can't argue that point- they said what they said, true or not is irrelevant. |
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What is relevant- is should the quote be included. It is in a section that contains many examples of how the Syrian civil war is being covered by journalists- so it seems appropriate to include this quote there- but perhaps you could also include a quote from a journalist that does not think the name change and detachment is so cut and dry. Then link the two by saying there is some disagreement among journalists about the current state of affairs? Would that work and give a more equal and fair representation? |
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====participants' statements==== |
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== Rape in Islamic law == |
== Rape in Islamic law == |
Revision as of 22:47, 6 July 2020
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Current disputes
2020 United States House of Representatives election ratings
Closed discussion |
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Tell Abyad
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Tell Abyad (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- Paradise Chronicle (talk · contribs)
- عمرو بن كلثوم (talk · contribs)
- Konli17 (talk · contribs)
- Shadow4dark (talk · contribs)
- Cengizsogutlu (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
The dispute is about one quote of the Washington Post which says:
The Kurds formally renamed Tal Abyad with a Kurdish name, "Gire Spi", and proclaim its new identity in signs throughout the town — written in the Latin script used by Turkish Kurds but not readily understood by Syrian Kurds or Arabs. They have also unilaterally detached it from the existing Syrian province of Raqqa and made it a part of their newly formed autonomous enclave, carved from areas traditionally inhabited by Kurds but steadily encroaching also on territories that were historically Arab.
Amr ibn Kulthoum (from now on Amr) and I have a different point of view of what belongs into the article. Amr insists that the quote has to be included as it is from the Washington Post. But Tell Abyad wasn't renamed to Gire Spi and the Kurds have also not detached Tell Abyad from the Raqqa Governorate "unilaterally" , then Latin script is current in Syria, too. The "welcome to Tell Abyad" plate stayed at the entrance of the town throughout all the time the Kurds co-governed the town. The Kurds only allowed the Kurdish name to be spelled as well. Also, Tell Abyad wasn't a part of the Raqqa Governorate as it was captured from ISIS by the Kurds. The Wapo article is from 2015, the Raqqa Governorate was in large parts in possession of ISIS until 2016, Raqqa only fell in October 2017. I say we can mention that the Kurds allowed the Kurdish name to be spelled and printed as well, instead of renaming the town from Tell Abyad to Gire Spi and that Tell Abyad was included into the Kobane Canton. But not "unilaterally" detached, it was detached before, too and is detached now as well. I guess the points are extensively present in the discussion mentioned below.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
[[1]]
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
I think you could look at the arguments presented in the discussion and then comment on them. Maybe you bring us to reach an agreement about what of the disputed content is to stay and what has to be removed.
Summary of dispute by Amr ibn Kulthoum
I had already presented my arguments in the Talk page. I am not really sure what User Paradise is complaining about, besides simply asking to remove or modify the direct quote from Washington Post, which is one of the most credible sources used in Kurdish-related articles, compared to ANF, Hawar, Rudaw, Kurdistan24, etc. that they prefer using. Here are my arguments to debunk Paradise's claims:
- Kurdish sites are full of news of attaching Tel Abyad to their newly formed Kobani Canton, see this map, detaching it from Raqqa Governorate, and pro-Kurdish users here (like Paradise and Konli) have filled WP with this kind of information and maps including the Tel Abyad page itself (see Rojava, although updated since the town was captured to Turkish and SNA forces). Also this page of administrative divisions shows this Euphrates Region.
- Below is a quote from an author frequently cited by pro-Kurdish users:
In administrative terms, Tal Abyad district no longer belongs to the Syrian government province of Raqqa, but to the Kurdish canton of Kobane. Although the population is predominantly Arab, there is no civil council to represent them as in Manbij, Deir al-Zour, Raqqa, and other Arab-majority locales liberated by Kurdish forces. Instead, the YPG’s goal is to fully integrate Tal Abyad into Kurdish territory, which the group still envisions as an autonomous belt along most of the northern border.
- Here is an official Traffic police sign in Tel Abyad under Kurdish militant (YPG) control, showing only the Kurdish name (Gire spi), both in English and Arabic (كري سبي) scripts, with no mention of the long established Arabic name (تل أبيض) in this predominantly Arab town. A ton of separate reports on human rights violations by YPG forces exist besides this story, but that's a discussion for another day.
- Here is another story and another one, another one from other Kurdish "news agencies"/sites using the Kurdish name in Arabic scripts instead of the original Arabic name. I can provide tens of these.
On a similar note, in their Kurdification of northern Syria zeal, PYD/YPG came up with a new name (Sere Kaniye) to replace the 1000+ year old name of Ras al-Ayn (see here).
- Here is another official department in Tel Abyad showing the Kurdish name in both Latin and Arabic scripts, instead of the original Arabic name. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 03:59, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Konli17
"Please do not continue to discuss disputes before a volunteer has opened a thread. If necessary, please continue to discuss on the article talk page." Until someone volunteers to mediate this dispute (and after a week, no-one has), I don't see any point in contributing here. Konli17 (talk) 21:24, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Cengizsogutlu
I told with link,photos even videos and road signs the city is under control of TFSA & Turkey seized from Kurdish YPG. Before civil war city called officialy Tal Abyad. After being captured by People's Protection Units local council renamed city to Gri spi. Arab and Turkmen were forced to migrate to Turkey. Well things changed a lot after Turkey and TFSA launch Operation Peace Spring city's name offcialy Tal/Tell Abyad again. To prove this, i share names in the city center, the local court, town hall, The soldiers' barracks to Military police stations from fire brigade to hospital Road signs to newspapers This is officially tel abyad. Kurdish name of the city can be used but the main name is Tel abyad. Also I'm new to wikipedia. Personal attack was made to me on the talk page. I don't know how to report about this. someone called me "straw man" and belittled my view, there is no respect here also. Finally, some members are more than encyclopedic editing they are doin some manupulating things This is cant be overlooked, These persons are constantly making manipulation edits about Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Irani Kurds. Wikipedia should follow these ridicls edits. Absurdly, countries that bans Wikipedia sincerely speaking has piece of truth, this site should remain a world-wide encyclopedia, not a field of ethnic-political manipulation warfare place.
Best RegardsCengizsogutlu (talk) 13:17, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Shadow4dark
Again as per talk, PYD/Kurds changed the name to Gire Spi. [1] As per source they use name Gire Spi and not Tell AbyadShadow4dark (talk) 01:47, 25 June 2020 (UTC) .
Tell Abyad discussion
I've now removed the quote in dispute. Also with a see talk page note. But not! the resulted in tensions part, which might be true, at least given the dispute about the quote. I hope someone will give me an answer at the talk page before reverting. I have started the discussions because it is stated that the filer should take part in every part of the process. Maybe the volunteers are waiting for this.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 20:05, 1 July 2020 (UTC) The editor reverted and didn't give an answer at the talk page even though I have brought several sources to make my point. Just as the last time, 6 days ago, before I made the request for dispute resolution.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 20:34, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- I restored the Washington Post material that is subject of this discussion here that you had just deleted. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 20:41, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Moderator's First Statement
I'm sorry it has taken so long to volunteer, but I have not had a lot of time this week to spend on Wikipedia, and I'll be honest- I don't have a lot of time until after the 10th of July- but I will do my best to check in at least once a day to moderate this. I have read the summary of the case- and the talk page. I'm still somewhat confused as to what is going on. It looks like
1) the name of the town has changed by some citizens- but it is not clear if that was a lawful or legitimate change or not. 2) a quote from a newspaper was being argued about if it was appropriate for the page.
Am I correct that these are the two main issues?
What I would like to ask each of you now is 1) Are you willing to participate? 2) a 3 sentence or less summary of the problem and 3) 1 additional 1 sentence summarizing what you hope to accomplish by the end of the Dispute resolution? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightenbelle (talk • contribs)
Paradise Chronicle statement
1) yes, I want to participate 2) the quote in dispute includes inaccuracies like "unilaterally" detached it from the existing Syrian province of Raqqa and the Kurds "formally" renamed Tal Abyad into a Kurdish name Gire Spi, to name just two here in the short summary. An other part of the dispute is the lack of cooperation of the two opposing parties at the talk page. I'd support withdrawing the quote, as it describes several inaccuracies. 3)I hope to come to an agreement with the other editors.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 23:15, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- why you still complain about this? PYD use Gire Spi as first name and Tell Abyad as secondary name. You can't accept their own claim. Shadow4dark (talk) 04:19, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
عمرو بن كلثوم statement
Hi Nightenbelle and thanks for volunteering here. As you will soon discover, the discussion here is just the tip of the iceberg as the dispute extends to many articles. In brief, the Kurdish YPG militia have been encroaching on more and more Arab-majority land (sometimes where no Kurds live such as Deiir Ezzor) for the last nine years or so, and have been kurdifying the areas they capture, under the pretext of "liberating this land from IS terror group". See this map of their claimed rojava (western Kurdistan) in 2014, versus what they claim as rojava today (all are maps published by pro-Kurdish users/sources). We do have many reports on this, just to name a few: Amnesty, Forbes, Al Jazeera, the Nation, NYT, Washington Post, the Washington Institute, foreign minister of Russia Lavrov, Chatham House from 2015, Institute for the Study of War, Syria Direct. Just to give some earlier background, here is a map showing the suggested Kurdistan area in the Treaty of Sevres and here is a CIA map showing Kurdish-inhabited areas. Some editors here try to whitewash the YPG and its administrative arm, and sweep these reports under the rug. You can get a better idea by visiting the Rojava article, and seeing the Talk page there. Please also have a look at most of the references used there, mostly affiliated with Kurdish militias or openly pro-Kurdish (ANF, Hawar, Ruber, Kurdistan24, Rudaw). Even blogs and personal websites are used in that and similar articles to support propaganda-type claims. When reading those articles and their sources you would think yourself in Utopia. Sorry for my long statement here, but I've been frustrated with Wikipedia bias lack of oversight for years, so I am unleashing here. I have presented my arguments for the specific Washington Post quote above. I look forward to hearing what you think on this. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 03:51, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Konli17 statement
Shadow4dark statement
Yes i am looking for a compromise. 2 users want delete all good sources stuff include war crimes. But this is not NPOV. Shadow4dark (talk) 10:38, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Cengizsogutlu's statement
Moderator's 2nd Statement
Okay, I'm still pretty darn confused about it all- I'm sorry that I'm having to play catch-up so much. This is, I think, why no one was willing to moderate this dispute because it is much more complicated than it looks and there are many layers of the dispute that are not apparent if you are unfamiliar with the history. But, maybe there is some benefit from an outside perspective.... No one is disputing that the Kurds are (at least) attempting to exert control over the area and are attempting to impose a new name? Then would it be acceptable for the article to include the quote saying "Some western news organizations reported the name change while locals are not so quick to accept the change" and then include a news source to support that? I'm assuming, since you are saying this is true, that there are reliable sources that support it beyond your own experience?
Now as far as removing the war crimes- why are these in dispute? What are the reasons for having them removed? (I know you think its NPOV Shadow4dark- I mean what are the reasons the people are removing it are using?) they can't just be saying "I don't like it so I'm taking it out." Maybe by looking at those reasons we can find a path to compromise. Nightenbelle (talk) 14:15, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
Participant's Statements
I am not against that it is mentioned that the YPG is accused of war crimes. It is also stated in the article that the UN denies such claims. If a claim made it to the UN it is fair to be mentioned. War crimes as such, are also not included in the Washington Post quote in dispute. This is what I mean, with not cooperating in the discussion. The answers of the opponents are about anything else, but not about what the dispute is actually about. Let's talk about the mention that the Kurds "unilaterally" detached it from the Raqqa Governorate, which territory at the time wasn't even governed by a Governor, but by ISIS. And about the Tel Abyad plate at the entrance of the city. There it is mentioned Welcome to Tell Abiad. Here from 2 January 2020, here from September 2019, and here from 2015. It is the same plate the PYD used, which the Turks now use as well. There are hundreds of articles of the PYD/SDF mentioning Tell Abyad. here, here, here, these are all so called official PYD or SDF websites. The name of the city was not changed from Tel Abyad into Gire Spi, it was just allowed to write the Kurdish name as well. Please for the rest of the discussion,. focus on Latin/arab script, the name of the town as stated above, and then Tell Abyad "unilaterally" detached from Raqqa Governorate. "Unilaterally" is the term in dispute. Latin/arab script are well known to the Syrians from before the AANES rule, and a town governed by ISIS was sure not "unilaterally" detached from the Raqqa Governorate. If it was detached from anything at the year 2015, it was detached from ISIS ruled territory, and ISIS detached it from the Raqqa Governorate before. Tell Abyad was just made an own canton within the AANES. As it is stated in the article. Sorry for the long answer and the repetition of the arguments, but maybe not all involved in the dispute were able to read my statements at the Tell Abyad talk page.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 22:00, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
=Moderator's 3rd statement
Okay- so the war crimes issue is not part of this, then lets drop it and if the person discussing that issue wishes an DRN for that issue, they can open one. The word unilaterally comes from the Washington post quote correct? And that is a direct quote of what they said- so we really can't argue that point- they said what they said, true or not is irrelevant.
What is relevant- is should the quote be included. It is in a section that contains many examples of how the Syrian civil war is being covered by journalists- so it seems appropriate to include this quote there- but perhaps you could also include a quote from a journalist that does not think the name change and detachment is so cut and dry. Then link the two by saying there is some disagreement among journalists about the current state of affairs? Would that work and give a more equal and fair representation?
participants' statements
Rape in Islamic law
Closed discussion |
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Lunch Date
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Lunch Date (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- IseDaByThatEditsTheBoat (talk · contribs)
- Hotwiki (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
Dispute over whether to list BB Gandanghari (subject to WP:BLP) as her present name or the name she was billed on the show as. A compromise was already offered (to list both) but was only accepted by two users (one party to the original talk and the other brought in via the Third Opinion Request process) in the discussion.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:Lunch_Date#Billing_of_the_actress_now_known_as_BB_Gandanghari
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
By providing a solution based on WP policy on how to list Gandanghari as.
Summary of dispute by Hotwiki
Lunch Date discussion
Moderator's First Statement
Good morning, or whatever time of day it is where you are. My name is Nightenbelle and I'm willing to moderate this case. I've reviewed the talk page and previous discussion of this issue. First- IseDaByThatEditsTheBoat (talk · contribs), when you open one of these- you must notify the other editors on their talk page. I've notified Hotwiki (talk · contribs) this time, but please be mindful in the future. Thanks
Now... I see that a 3O has already been done, and the suggestion by them was that a short statement be included "Could a compromise be to list them as "Rustom Padilla (now known as BB Gandanghari)"?" Hotwiki Why, exactly, are you opposed to this compramise? I understand that the actress changed her name long after the show ended, but that doesn't change the fact that the person who acted in this show now has a new identity. To prevent confusion and preserve continuitity, it seems prudent to reflect that in some way- we are an information community, is it not our duty to include all relevant information without putting undue emphasis on any one perspective? Would adding those five words harm the article beyond repair? I do see that including the name used on the show, even if it is now a dead name, is important as well because it is how that person was identified on the show. Nightenbelle (talk) 14:30, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
Participants' first statements
- Apologies; I did not realise I had forgotten to ping them on their talk-page. I had assumed a mention on the Lunch Date talk page was enough. Sustenance in Sonder - IseDaByThatEditsTheBoat 16:12, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- As long as the name (Rustom Padilla) credited in the show is still being used in the article and not removed, then I won't further disagree with the suggestion/s. TheHotwiki (talk) 19:00, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
Moderator's Second Statement
User:IseDaByThatEditsTheBoat are you good with adding the statement, "Rustom Padilla (now known as BB Gandanghari)"? If so.... then I think we've found our compromise and solution. Nightenbelle (talk) 22:31, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
Participants' second statements
Lawrence Kasdan
Closed discussion |
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