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== Talk:Diablo III == |
== Talk:Diablo III == |
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{{DRN archive top|reason=<non-issue; silliness> [[User:Waveclaira|Waveclaira]] ([[User talk:Waveclaira|talk]]) 08:01, 26 September 2012 (UTC)}} |
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{{DR case status}} <!-- Bot Case ID (please don't modify): 318 --> |
{{DR case status}} <!-- Bot Case ID (please don't modify): 318 --> |
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{{drn filing editor|Unnamed101|15:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)}} |
{{drn filing editor|Unnamed101|15:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)}} |
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=== Talk:Diablo III discussion === |
=== Talk:Diablo III discussion === |
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<div style="font-size:smaller">Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments – continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.</div> |
<div style="font-size:smaller">Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments – continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.</div> |
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====Arbitrator Waveclaira's Conclusion==== |
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first of all, you people talk WAY too much about trivial, and/or non-issue. second, this conclusion is based on the comments on this section only, as the problem article is terribly long. |
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=====1===== |
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so basically, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Rs#Self-published_sources_.28online_and_paper.29 clearly shows that source is "largely not acceptable" with exceptions. this is a case where it is clearly not an exception, being user-reviews. |
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=====2===== |
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also, "This requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations," and im not sure if the opener had an inline citation, but it really isn't relevant, at all. |
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=====3===== |
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the editor opening this section is referring to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Rs#Statements_of_opinion , which should be under the "self-published" section. this is for authors that can be considered professionals, so it may be that the opener didnt understand this. in any case, it isn't relevant. |
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so i dont understand why this was brought here since it was a very easy non-problem -- it just belong. |
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=====what i think the solution is===== |
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i never believed that just anyone can edit wikipedia. in this case, it seemed really clear. maybe the opener had a misunderstanding, but i dont think the opener of this case should continue editing wikipedia. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Waveclaira|Waveclaira]] ([[User talk:Waveclaira|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Waveclaira|contribs]]) 07:56, 26 September 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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=====last point===== |
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so i think the page on reliable source can be way better. i was TRYING to make some progress on that page but some people have different opinions so i couldnt get anything accomplished. you can take a vote on what you honestly think -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Identifying_reliable_sources#Voting_section:_taking_a_100-person_vote_for_a_reliable_sample_size |
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[[User:Waveclaira|Waveclaira]] ([[User talk:Waveclaira|talk]]) |
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{{DRN archive bottom}} |
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== Talk:Sleigh Bells discography == |
== Talk:Sleigh Bells discography == |
Revision as of 08:07, 26 September 2012
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Self-determination
Closed discussion |
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Broadsword (disambiguation)
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Broadsword (disambiguation) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
Dispute overview
The dispute over the content of Broadsword (disambiguation) and application of MOS:DAB. The disputed content is the disambiguation between the types of swords that might have been referred to as "broadswords".
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Well aside from trying to discuss it, I put this on Wikiquette assistance, but nothing much had happened except for [ Deleted comments about the behavior of other editors. We deal with disputes about article content, not disputes about user conduct. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:56, 19 September 2012 (UTC) ] , until the process of Wikiquette assistance was eliminated, recently.
How do you think we can help?
I dunno. That's why I'm asking for help. [ Deleted comments about the behavior of other editors. We deal with disputes about article content, not disputes about user conduct. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:56, 19 September 2012 (UTC) ]
Opening comments by ZarlanTheGreen
[ Deleted comments about the behavior of other editors. We deal with disputes about article content, not disputes about user conduct. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:56, 19 September 2012 (UTC) ]
- You did so without bothering to get me to do so myself. You asked, but did not allow me to do so, as I clearly stated I would. I shall restore a part of the opening statement, which DID discuss content.--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 14:04, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
a significant edit [was made] to Broadsword_(disambiguation). I found it to remove a lot of information and removing certain good distinctions that was present in the old version.— Preceding unsigned comment added by ZarlanTheGreen (talk • contribs) 19:58, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
Opening comments by Trofobi
The changes I made were according to the MOS:DAB (like I understand it), especially the clear and simple formatting and wording shown in the examples there. I have seen by the edits of George Ho and JHunterJ, that I there were better ways to interpret the MOS:DAB and fully agree with their changes. The previous version(s) (123) had some MOS:DAB-unsupported or outdated links (long/great/short-sword redirs and other), missing links (the ships & Jethro Tull), and in my eyes especially a confusing formatting and wording. Can give more details & difflinks if required, but have not much time for that within the next days.--Trofobi (talk) 08:04, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Opening comments by JHunterJ
Disambiguation page cleaned up per WP:MOSDAB. Entries not ambiguous with "broadsword" removed, remaining entries formatted. – JHunterJ (talk) 00:17, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Broadsword (disambiguation) discussion
I am a dispute resolution volunteer here at the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. This does not imply that I have any special authority or that my opinions should carry any extra weight; it just means that I have not been previously involved in this dispute and that I have some experience helping other people to resolve their disputes.
Right now I am waiting for opening comments by JHunterJ and Trofobi before opening this up for discussion, so please be patient. In the meantime, I encourage everyone involved to read the "guide for participants" at the top of this page. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 23:49, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
- I just posted a reminder on Trofobi's talk page that we are waiting for him. If I don't get a reply in a day or so we will proceed without him. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:29, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
OK, now that everyone has weighed in, I am opening this for discussion. First I would like to ask, did everybody read "Guide for participants" at the top of this page as I requested? Did you read the part that says...
What this noticeboard is not:
It is not a place to deal with the behavior of other editors. We deal with disputes about article content, not disputes about user conduct.
ZarlanTheGreen, your initial statement doesn't contain a single word explaining what you want the page to look like and why you want it that way. It is 100% about the behavior of other editors. You need to go back, delete it, and re-write it so that it does not contain the words "He" "Him" "They", or the names of any other editors. What I would like to see is a diff showing a point at which the page was the way you think it should be. (if you don't know how to make a diff, just give the exact time and date of your edit.) Then add a brief explanation as to why you think your version should be retained.
Trofobi, much of your initial statement is rebutting ZarlanTheGreen talking about other editors. While this is a natural thing to do, I am going to ask you to instead ignore any such comments. They will be removed, (if not by the person who writes them I will remove them myself), and responding just encourages the unacceptable behavior.
I would also like to see from you a diff showing a point at which the page was the way you think it should be and a brief explanation as to why you think your version should be retained.
JHunterJ, the first half of your initial statement is just the sort of thing I am looking for. Could you delete the later comment about user behavior and expand a bit on what part of WP:MOSDAB we are talking about? I think I know, but I want it from the participants. When someone says a policy is being followed and another editor says it is not, I always like to focus on the exact wording showing which part of the policy and the exact wording of the edit in question.
What I am asking you all for is specific versions of content and specific wording of policy, with no references to user behavior. After we get the content dispute straightened out, if there are still user conduct issues I will advise you as to where to go with those.
Thanks for your patience. We will get this resolved. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
- I did not fully understand the function of this noticeboard, thus the... "inappropriate" opening comment. Sorry about that. I still would like to report the behaviour, but it seems that has been deemed unproductive, and I can't say I don't understand. Either way, I'm quite willing to go the route of talking about the content. As to replacing the opening comment... Is that really appropriate? Amending what I say, sure, but replacing it sounds a bit like rewriting history. If you insist, I nevertheless will. It should be noted, however, that I did, if briefly (though to be fair, that is at it should be, for the opening comment) comment on the issue of the content.--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 04:15, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- I see that you deleted those parts, with the motivation that asking for the voluntary removal got no result. That is ridiculous! I questioned if it should be done, but nevertheless stated that I still would do so, if you indicated that you insisted it be done, despite my misgivings.--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 13:45, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- I deleted part of my statement above by request. No problems with the current entries have been identified, and the removed entries were removed because they are not ambiguous with "broadsword" according to the linked articles (see MOS:DABMENTION; I also added a line to WP:MOSDAB#Examples of individual entries that should not be created based on the discussion at Talk:Broadsword (disambiguation)). I am not aware of any policy-based problems with those removals, nor any other problems with the page, so I'm not clear what dispute needs to be resolved. – JHunterJ (talk) 12:31, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
- As I've already mentioned, MOS:DABMENTION deals with how to include topics that do not have an article of their own (which is not true of any of the topics that are, or where, linked to, on the page discussed) and not what should or shouldn't be included. Thus it is completely irrelevant. The line in Wikipedia:MOSDAB#Examples_of_individual_entries_that_should_not_be_created, however, is highly relevant, but it can hardly be said to reflect proper wikipedia practice, policy or guideline, given that it was just put there. It might become an accepted guideline, but I wouldn't really count it as such, just yet. Besides, doing so would open the door to winning these kind of arguments, simply by making up, or changing, rules oneself. While one should assume good faith, the rules should nevertheless be set in such a way as to avoid the consequences of the inevitable occasions of bad faith ...not to mention that actions that has the same result as those made in bad faith, can be made in good faith. Now could you please mention any bit of policy or guideline that supports you, which is relevant or accepted?--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 04:15, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- Sure. Well, lets see...
- The old version grouped different types of things. The newer edits (any other than my reverts) just puts all links as a mere list, in a seemingly arbitrary order, without any apparent from of organization (which goes against MOS:DABMENTION#Organization).
- The entry Arming Sword was removed [ Deleted comments about the behavior of other editors. We deal with disputes about article content, not disputes about user conduct. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:56, 19 September 2012 (UTC) ] I still object to the removal, and argue that several other sword types should be added (for the same reason), though probably not with individual links to all, but rather an explanation of the qualities that they share, or something.
- There may be more, that I can't think of right now, but that should cover most of it, I think.
- I would also like to add that the removal of the Jethro Tull song was a somewhat clumsy oversight, which I would have appreciated if someone had pointed out to me before. I agree that, that entry should stay there. Thank you Trofobi, for pointing that out (if a bit late).--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 04:15, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- To the points:
- MOS:DABORDER uses groups (sections) for long disambiguation pages (#2), and the broadsword disambiguation page is not long, so it's faster for the reader to keep the few entries in one group (just a mere list), and arrange the entries there (not arbitrarily but) per MOS:DABORDER (#3) – topics with articles first, with the synonyms like Dao next, and the mentions last (and the newly-added surname holder in a separate section).
- Add the information about arming swords being known as broadswords to the article Arming sword, and I'll be happy to restore the entry to the dab page myself.
- -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:17, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- You say it's not long? Why? I say it's certainly long enough. Just look at other disambiguation pages of similar length. As to the order... "Dao next"? Are you kidding me? There are several ships and even BroadSword Comics (neither of which can be called "synonyms", by any stretch) before Dao (Sword) appears! What you say, clearly isn't true.
- Please explain why Arming sword has to mention them being called broadswords. Please point to some wikipedia policy or guideline (that hasn't been just recently been added, but which is clearly an accepted part of wikipedia), which verifies this. If you do so, I will thank you for informing me, and gladly back down on this point.--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 13:55, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- WP:MOSDAB#Examples of individual entries that should not be created has been clarified based on your misunderstanding of the disambiguation guidelines. Please point to some Wikipedia policy or guideline that says we can add anything to disambiguation pages even when there is no indication of ambiguity. "Dao" is a synonym – it does not have the word "Broadsword" there. "BroadSword Comics" is not a synonym. "Who published that comic? BroadSword." And I am not kidding you; see if you can ratchet down the rhetoric. – JHunterJ (talk) 18:37, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- WP:MOSDAB#Examples of individual entries that should not be created was not clarified. Before your edit, there was absolutely no mention of any requirement that it be mentioned in the article being linked (if you disagree, then please show me where such a mention existed). Thus you did not clarify something that it already said, but rather added something that wasn't previously present. I have no need to point to some Wikipedia policy or guideline that says we can add anything to disambiguation pages even when there is no indication of ambiguity ...as I have not made no such claim. I have no need to defend a position that I do not hold, or have ever held. Also, as you can see here (especially in my replies to Czarkoff), I have no problems with having to verify that the topics belong in the DAB, and I have never said or claimed anything to the contrary. As to Dao being a synonym and BroadSword comics not being a synonym... That's exactly what I said. Neither the ships, nor BroadSword comics, are synonyms (nor is Dao, but it's at least somewhat closer to being one). Also note that it says the "recommended order", not the "required order" ...and MOS:DABORDER#When_to_break_Wikipedia_rules: "However, for every style recommendation above, there may be pages in which a good reason exists to use another way; so ignore these guidelines if doing so will be more helpful to readers than following them." You need to consider the reasons behind the recommendations, instead of just sternly demand that they be followed to the letter. Why should it be in the current order? Why is the old order bad? The issue to consider, is the usefulness to the reader. How clear and easily readable it is, that is. As to my rhetoric... What rhetoric? Me saying "are you kidding me"? If so, then your standards are extremely strict and you break them yourself, and not just in that comment ...but that's beside the point, is it not?--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 21:27, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- Good, so we're in agreement that there's no reason to include "arming sword". Yes, recommended order, and lacking any reason to do so, you need to stop sternly and extremely strictly demanding that all other editors leave your edits alone. – JHunterJ (talk) 22:01, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- Where did I ever say that Arming Sword shouldn't be included? Quit putting words in my mouth! As to other editors "leaving my edits alone"... What on earth are you talking about? What edits of mine? I did not make an edit that I am defending. Trofobi made an edit that you are defending, and I am criticising. I am defending the old consensus against what I see as bad modifications (right now there is no consensus. There is discussion, i.e. this, to get to one). You still haven't shown that the DAB isn't long, or explained why it this ordering is better. Surely Dao should come before such things as ships? When one thinks of "broadsword", the first thing that comes to mind is a sword.--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 14:56, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Good, so we're in agreement that there's no reason to include "arming sword". Yes, recommended order, and lacking any reason to do so, you need to stop sternly and extremely strictly demanding that all other editors leave your edits alone. – JHunterJ (talk) 22:01, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- WP:MOSDAB#Examples of individual entries that should not be created was not clarified. Before your edit, there was absolutely no mention of any requirement that it be mentioned in the article being linked (if you disagree, then please show me where such a mention existed). Thus you did not clarify something that it already said, but rather added something that wasn't previously present. I have no need to point to some Wikipedia policy or guideline that says we can add anything to disambiguation pages even when there is no indication of ambiguity ...as I have not made no such claim. I have no need to defend a position that I do not hold, or have ever held. Also, as you can see here (especially in my replies to Czarkoff), I have no problems with having to verify that the topics belong in the DAB, and I have never said or claimed anything to the contrary. As to Dao being a synonym and BroadSword comics not being a synonym... That's exactly what I said. Neither the ships, nor BroadSword comics, are synonyms (nor is Dao, but it's at least somewhat closer to being one). Also note that it says the "recommended order", not the "required order" ...and MOS:DABORDER#When_to_break_Wikipedia_rules: "However, for every style recommendation above, there may be pages in which a good reason exists to use another way; so ignore these guidelines if doing so will be more helpful to readers than following them." You need to consider the reasons behind the recommendations, instead of just sternly demand that they be followed to the letter. Why should it be in the current order? Why is the old order bad? The issue to consider, is the usefulness to the reader. How clear and easily readable it is, that is. As to my rhetoric... What rhetoric? Me saying "are you kidding me"? If so, then your standards are extremely strict and you break them yourself, and not just in that comment ...but that's beside the point, is it not?--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 21:27, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- To the points:
Sorry for interjection, but in my opinion this particular dispute boils down to two questions:
- Do the reliable sources support the claim that removed entries (Arming sword and Dao (sword)) are indeed referred to as "broadsword"?
- If so, does this statement belong to DAB page or broadsword article?
I would kindly ask parties (primarily ZarlanTheGreen, per WP:BURDEN) to provide the succinct answers to these questions. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 13:51, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
- I can answer the second question: the statement(s) belong on Arming sword and/or Dao (sword), and once there, the (brief) entry or entries would be added to the disambiguation page as Wikipedia topics ambiguous with the title. – JHunterJ (talk) 14:25, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, there are great amounts of sources that say that arming swords (and longswords and the such) are called broadswords. In fact wiktionary rather annoyingly only gives that meaning, for the term "broadsword" (much like merriam-webster, dictionary.com, oxforddictionaries.com ...not to mention several books about the middle ages, and most fiction within the fantasy genre (just noting a few examples): fantasy games, such as World of Warcraft, Diablo, pretty much any fantasy role playing game (including all editions of Dungeons and Dragons)... tons of books about the middle ages (or swords or history), but that's a bit harder to verify, with just google. Also, I would like to point out that it is used this way in this clip from a notable (if not accurate) "documentary". If nothing else, I should say that those sources (which are merely the tip of the iceberg. A few of the examples I could find, on short notice) prove that it is a common enough use of the word "broadsword", to be notable enough to merit mention on the disambiguation page, I think (I'd understand being asked to verify that this use of the word broadsword is inaccurate, but that it isn't common? I am surprised that anyone would doubt it, quite frankly). As to Dao (sword)... well if you disagree, then I suggest you take it up its own article, where it is noted that Dao are "/.../often called a broadsword in English translation/.../"--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 04:15, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- Both "Arming sword" and "Dao (sword)" had been marked "[dubious ]" since 6 July 2011 – no change or discussion had been on that issue since then, therefore I felt safe to remove the "Arming sw." link, where in the whole article is no mention of "broadsword". And as I have added both links to Classification of swords & Types of swords, any visitor looking for any kind of "broad" sword will now easily find the relevant existing articles.
- As to Guy's request for a difflink to the version I prefer: the current version (compared to that how I found the article on 28 August 2012). For a brief explanation why it should be retained pls see my opening comment. --Trofobi (talk) 15:10, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
- @ZarlanTheGreen: could you please explicitly name secondary sources unambiguously connecting term "broadsword" with "arming sword" and "dao sword"? We can't make judgment on "plenty" of sources, and those you've linked are very ambiguous. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 08:41, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- I do not understand your request. The sources I linked to, pointed out that countless sources say that straight, cutting, swords (a category into which arming sword, quite clearly, falls), are classified by many, as being "broadswords". Why should they be precise in specifying arming swords? They cover a variety of swords, which clearly includes arming swords. As to Dao... Seriously, just put the words "Dao" and "broadsword" into google, and you'll see that its a word commonly used for it. I'll find you some specific sources, but I've got an appointment I've got to get to right now, so I'll do it later today (or tomorrow).--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 13:45, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- The way you connect these is known on Wikipedia as improper synthesis. I request sources that explicitly include into definition the terms you want to add to the DAB page in question. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 21:57, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- Improper synthesis deals with improperly combining information from several different sources. That is clearly not relevant. The sources I cited all, individually, state much the same thing. One of them (the documentary) even goes so far as to say "broadsword", when talking about what is clearly an arming sword. An Oakeshott type XIV I'd say. That or a type XVI (can't be anything else, other than maybe a blade outside the typology, which happens, but I doubt it). This is also true of the Diablo and WoW references. Many of the sources state that straight cutting swords are broadswords. Arming swords are straight and cutting, thus they are clearly included. If you wish to claim that this conclusion is original research (to my mind, it's like saying that cucumbers have a feature, because a source says all vegetables do), then that's fine. You'll have to use something other than WP:SYNTH to argue that, however. Either way, this could be solved in a way I suggested earlier: "I still object to the removal, and argue that several other sword types should be added (for the same reason), though probably not with individual links to all, but rather an explanation of the qualities that they share, or something.". I.e. put in a mention of "straight cutting swords" instead (maybe not with that exact wording though. I suspect it can be expressed better). Note that this would not be removing arming sword. Sure there would no longer be an arming sword link, but it would simply be included in a different way. I assume you would have no objection to that?--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 14:56, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- The way you connect these is known on Wikipedia as improper synthesis. I request sources that explicitly include into definition the terms you want to add to the DAB page in question. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 21:57, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- OTOH, I'd rather not expand this DR to the content of arming sword. The sources belong there, not on broadsword (disambiguation). If that article arming sword says that they are known as broadswords, then the dab page includes it. If it doesn't, it doesn't. I am not an involved party if there's a dispute over whether arming sword is to say so. :-) – JHunterJ (talk) 11:17, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- Not necessarily IMO. I would better disambiguate the possible meaning in broadsword article and generalize the DAB if such sources are found. Anyway, the issue is a bit wider then this DAB, and I want to get it settled here. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 21:57, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- We don't disambiguate different topics in articles (except in hatnotes). But if we want to discuss the contents of broadsword instead, then I should be removed from the involved parties list, since I am not involved in any content dispute for broadsword. – JHunterJ (talk) 11:23, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- Not necessarily IMO. I would better disambiguate the possible meaning in broadsword article and generalize the DAB if such sources are found. Anyway, the issue is a bit wider then this DAB, and I want to get it settled here. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 21:57, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- I do not understand your request. The sources I linked to, pointed out that countless sources say that straight, cutting, swords (a category into which arming sword, quite clearly, falls), are classified by many, as being "broadswords". Why should they be precise in specifying arming swords? They cover a variety of swords, which clearly includes arming swords. As to Dao... Seriously, just put the words "Dao" and "broadsword" into google, and you'll see that its a word commonly used for it. I'll find you some specific sources, but I've got an appointment I've got to get to right now, so I'll do it later today (or tomorrow).--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 13:45, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- @ZarlanTheGreen: could you please explicitly name secondary sources unambiguously connecting term "broadsword" with "arming sword" and "dao sword"? We can't make judgment on "plenty" of sources, and those you've linked are very ambiguous. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 08:41, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Rather than fighting over the content of Broadsword (disambiguation) why not work together to improve Classification of swords and Types of swords, and then make Broadsword (disambiguation) say whatever those two pages say? --Guy Macon (talk) 09:31, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you mean about making the dab page say what those articles say. Not all types of swords would be ambiguous with "broadsword", and little or nothing of the classification of sword would be usefully "sayable" on the disambiguation page. Classification of swords and Types of swords can certainly be improved by interested parties, but unless new "broadsword" ambiguity is introduced, those improvements wouldn't affect a navigational page that already links to them. – JHunterJ (talk) 11:21, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- Because that is a separate, if connected, issue. I also agree with JHunterJ and Trofobi on this. Thanks for the suggestion though.--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 14:56, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- I would agree that both articles (Classification & Types) really need improvement, both having multiple issues – the now removed merge proposal seems no bad idea, but just like the May 2007 ref request noone cared. Perhaps someone could ask some of the earlier main authors like Dbachmann to take it up again? (That cleanup should also include List of bladed weapons#Swords.) But I, too, don't expect effects on this DAB page discussion. Like R'n'B stated earlier: The question is if there are reliable sources that "Zoobie" is also called "broadsword" – if so, this info belongs into the Zoobie article, which then will rightfully be mentioned in the broadsword DAB.
- So is that now the final remaining question – if "Arming sword" be added or not? And then this will be settled? --Trofobi (talk) 12:35, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- Nope. There is also the issue of the order and grouping (or lack thereof) of similar things. It is the more important issue though, IMO, and one on which I suspect I have dealt with all objections in my response to Czarkoff above, so that it will not only be included, but in a better manner than it previously was ...or so I hope.--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 14:56, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- We already have an answer regarding " the issue of the order and grouping (or lack thereof) of similar things." MOS:DABORDER is quite clear: "Long dab pages should be organized into subject sections, as described below." and "Longer pages should be broken up by subject area." This isn't even close to being a long dab page, and thus there should be no grouping of similar things. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:40, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Not even close? Oh, I dunno about that Moss_(disambiguation), [[//]] (dunno why this link won't work. It says link exists when I try to include it, and everything), Oakes, Jackson_Square and Gaja_(disambiguation) (to take a few examples at random), are quite close. Indeed some of them are quite a bit shorter. I say that the broadsword DAB is long enough to merit breaking up in groups of topics of a similar nature, and many a DAB of similar length, or shorter, are organized in such a manner. Why? Because that is more reader friendly, gives you a better overview. MOS:DABORDER isn't as clear as you claim. It says "longer". It doesn't say what longer means. Not only does it not give a specific length (probably because such a thing would be regarded as a bad idea), but it doesn't even give any form of indication of how long "longer" is. Thus you cannot say that MOS:DABORDER clearly says that it isn't longer. What matters is, if it is long enough, so that groupings would assist readers and/or if a lack of groupings would negatively impact readability, rather then the exact length (and if the exact length is the issue... well check the examples I noted).--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 17:34, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Oops, sorry! Thank you for clarification, Guy – so could you perhaps sum up, which questions on Broadsword (disambiguation) you still regard as unsolved? And as already asked on the talk page[24]: Shouldn't this section here be renamed WP:DRN#Broadsword (disambiguation) instead Broadsword? Also for later archiving/search options. --Trofobi (talk) 17:08, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- We already have an answer regarding " the issue of the order and grouping (or lack thereof) of similar things." MOS:DABORDER is quite clear: "Long dab pages should be organized into subject sections, as described below." and "Longer pages should be broken up by subject area." This isn't even close to being a long dab page, and thus there should be no grouping of similar things. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:40, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
ShelfSkewed has, obligingly, clearly demonstrated that articles linked to, need to mention the disambiguation(as per WP:DABRELATED). Thus I now accept that, that requirement is, indeed, an accepted guideline of wikipedia. I still argue for the compromise above, about mentioning "straight cutting swords". However, there is an issue of where that should be verified. That it can, easily, be verified, is quite clear. I have done so above, with great ease. The only issue is where. By the same token, Dao should clearly be there, as the article prominently mentions that it is often translated as "broadsword". Any need for verification should obviously be dealt with, in the article for Dao, rather than the DAB page. As long as that is fixed, then the issue of which topics should be in the DAB should be dealt with. The only remaining issue is the organization.--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 18:06, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- It has been brought to my attention that the issue of where to verify that "straight cutting swords" are, inaccurately, called broadswords has already been answered, in that it already is verified. An arming sword certainly is "A cutting sword with a broad blade", so it is verified, though as I suggested (as I have done twice before), one could add something along the lines of "Any cutting sword that is broader than a rapier" (while mentioning that it is a modern usage, that was not used historically), as individual mentions of all swords that qualify, might not be the best idea.--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 19:04, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- ...also, I noted that arming swords are, indeed, explicitly mentioned: "It must be noted, that the term broadsword was never used historically to describe the one-handed arming sword or short-sword. The short-sword was wrongly labeled a broadsword by antiquarians as the medieval swords were similar in blade width to the military swords of the day (that were also sometimes labeled as broadswords) and broader than the dueling swords and ceremonial dress swords." (I would argue that the term broadsword was never used historically to refer to swords for two hand either ...and that short-sword is also an erroneous term, but that is to be taken up at Classification of swords, not here)--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 19:15, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
So, is there any chance that we have arrived at a compromise that everyone can live with? --Guy Macon (talk) 23:38, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- Not quite. The discussion of what should be included has thankfully been, more or less, solved. Now it's just an issue of how to include the topics, and then to apply that to the page. That should not be troublesome. The issue of the organization of topics, however, has still not been solved.--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 03:08, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, these current organization is one we can live with. We have only one user who dislikes it, but it is consistent with the current guidelines. – JHunterJ (talk) 10:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
- It is consistent with guidelines? Really? How so? MOS:DABORDER says that topics should be grouped. You say this DAB isn't long? On what grounds? Can you point to a part of the MOS:DAB that states the specific length which determines if a DAB is long or not? What about Moss_(disambiguation), [[//]], Oakes, Jackson_Square and Gaja_(disambiguation)] that are all DABs of similar, if not shorter length? The Broadsword DAB is long enough, that at least some grouping would aid in user readability, and no grouping makes user readability suffer. Thus is is long enough to need to comply with MOS:DABORDER.--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 13:42, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, current version is good. --Trofobi (talk) 12:26, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Moving Forward
OK, here is how I think we should proceed. Remember, it says at the top of this page that This noticeboard is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and explanation of policy, so please take the following as a suggestion, not an order.
It appears that there is a weak WP:CONSENSUS against the changes that ZarlanTheGreen wants to make. I say "weak" because it looks like one against two. If it was one against ten or two against twenty I would be telling someone to accept the consensus. With 2:1 the following seems reasonable:
First, we should leave the page the way the 2:1 majority wants it while we discuss what to do next.
Second, ZarlanTheGreen should seriously consider whether to accept the majority version. This is not required but would end the dispute if he can live with that.
Third, if ZarlanTheGreen thinks that having more editors comment has a reasonable chance of ending up with the consensus swinging his way, he should post a Wikipedia:Requests for comment on the article talk page and we should close this DRN case while the 30-day period for the RfC plays out and we have a clear consensus. (There is no restriction against closing a DRN case and re-opening it as a new case later.) --Guy Macon (talk) 19:23, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
- George Ho here) also expressly endorsed it. Probably plus three other editors on Talk:Broadsword (disambiguation) who are at the very least not unhappy with the current version. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:17, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
- There are 4 other deliberate supporters of the current version: George Ho(1)+(2), R'n'B, Ian.thomson, BD2412(1)+(2) and
24 more editors who at least do not support Zarlan's version: ShelfSkewed, EatsShootsAndLeaves(1) update: +(2), GimliDotNet, Rich Farmbrough. --Trofobi (talk) 23:24, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
- There are 4 other deliberate supporters of the current version: George Ho(1)+(2), R'n'B, Ian.thomson, BD2412(1)+(2) and
- I just looked at all of the above diffs, and they are as Trofobi describes them. ZarlanTheGreen, do you happen to have diffs showing twenty or so editors supporting your version? Perhaps diffs showing that the above-mentioned individuals later changed their minds? If not, it is time for you to graciously follow the clear consensus. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:35, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
- You are all quite incorrect on some points:
- The matter of the fact that Arming Sword and Dao should be in the DAB, has been settled in my favour. To say that the consensus is against me, thus isn't quite accurate.
- As to the matter of the order (which, no doubt, is what you are all referring to)... Can anyone show where anyone has addressed the point that the Broadsword DAB of a similar length, if not longer, as many other DABs that group topics, and that it isn't shorter than some set length in the MOS:DAB. Please remember that while WP:CONSENSUS does state that one doesn't need everyone to agree, it does state that all legitimate concerns be addressed. Those concerns have not even been mentioned at all, by any of you. Not even to dismiss it out of hand.
- The diffs of George Ho, Ian.thomson and EatsShootsAndLeaves (in the first diff mentioned) show them as editors who supported the early edits, without specifying that they support the organization in particular, and without having considered all the issues that have been discussed here. So I don't really think that those should count. Also Ian.thomson claimed that I made the first edit, which is clearly false, as I pointed out.
- As to R'n'B, that was an issue of whether it is proper to say what use of broadsword is inaccurate, which is completely irrelevant to the issue of the DAB. It's relevant to the classification of swords page, but not the DAB. Thus irrelevant.
- BD2412 actually supports my position. He states it would be quite appropriate to link to Classification of swords#Broadsword and backsword, concerning straight cutting blades ...and again, it wasn't about the organization, but rather what to include, which is an issue where we are all agreed already. Thus irrelevant.
- The mention of GimliDotNet is irrelevant. It wasn't a support of either version, but rather stating that there was an ongoing edit war. This was quickly followed by him admitting that he had misread the times. Either way, it was only about behaviour, not content and thus irrelevant.
- ShelfSkewed didn't support the current page in that diff, but rather supported a completely separate idea. This was not a support of the current version or the old one, and it certainly did nothing to support any form of order in the DAB and thus irrelevant.
- The second EatsShootsAndLeaves' diff was far from being clear about what it meant ...which is just one of the problems with it. Either way, it doesn't give support to, or address, the organization of topics in the DAB.
- Rich Farmbrough made no comment on the DAB, in any way. He only commented on behaviour stating that my behaviour was not a problem, if not impeccable. Thus irrelevant.
- ...so even though I am in the minority, almost all the diffs mentioned, don't show any form of support of the current order, or the idea that the DAB isn't long. Aside from three editors, all diffs are either about a different subject entirely, or about behaviour. Only three of the editors mentioned, stated any form of support for the present DAB, but it wasn't clear if they supported the order or that they were aware of, or considered, the issues that have been brought up here. So really, the only editors that, undoubtedly, support the current order, while having read all the issues raised, are: Trofobi, Guy Macon and JHunterJ. (also, it's annoying that these edits were under "Moving Forward", making me not notice them, at first)--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 03:08, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- You are all quite incorrect on some points:
- Good news! this dispute has now arrived at a point where there is a disagreement about what the consensus is, and Wikipedia has a way to resolve disagreements about what the consensus is. We simply place a WP:RfC in the article talk page. Anyone can do this, but whoever does needs to take care that the instructions at Wikipedia:Requests for comment are followed to the letter. Especially Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Statement should be neutral and brief. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:40, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- ZTG, there is no consensus with you to include arming sword prior to text on that article indicating its ambiguity with "broadsword". Since dao has such text, it has been on the disambiguation page.
- Can you provide the guideline that shows that the broadsword article is longer than some set length and thus requires groups? You have not addressed that legitimate concern, except for WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS (and I fixed some of the problems in the other stuff).
- You have some questions about the support diffs for the ungrouped organization. Are there any editors who agree with your grouped organization on the broadsword dab?
- -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:37, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- Good news! this dispute has now arrived at a point where there is a disagreement about what the consensus is, and Wikipedia has a way to resolve disagreements about what the consensus is. We simply place a WP:RfC in the article talk page. Anyone can do this, but whoever does needs to take care that the instructions at Wikipedia:Requests for comment are followed to the letter. Especially Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Statement should be neutral and brief. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:40, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Pendulum
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- Chetvorno (talk · contribs)
- Maschen (talk · contribs)
- Martinvl (talk · contribs)
- 193.233.212.18 (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
The issue is whether to include a particular equation in the first section of the article Pendulum. The article is very long and there is a second article, Pendulum (mathematics), for the mathematics, so the policy of the editors on my side of the dispute has been to keep the math in the article to a minimum.
User:193.233.212.18 has repeatedly inserted a second equation for the true period of the pendulum. His equation is already included in Pendulum (mathematics) but he feels it should be in Pendulum also. [ Removed comment about the behavior of other editors. We deal with disputes about article content, not disputes about user conduct. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:48, 25 September 2012 (UTC) ] There has been consensus on the Talk page from the beginning, with 5 editors opposed to inclusion of the equation and only User:193.233.212.18 in favor. [ Removed comment about the behavior of other editors. We deal with disputes about article content, not disputes about user conduct. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:48, 25 September 2012 (UTC) ]
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I have tried to discuss it with User:193.233.212.18 in a nonconfrontational manner on his Talk page, but he hasn't replied. He may not have a static IP; I think I've seen him with other IPs, but he doesn't sign his posts
How do you think we can help?
[ Removed comment about the behavior of other editors. We deal with disputes about article content, not disputes about user conduct. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:48, 25 September 2012 (UTC) ]
Opening comments by Maschen
I also tried explaining to the IP at User talk:193.233.212.18 and talk:pendulum, and have reverted the IP number of times, and intend to stay out of it since the explanations have no effect. [ Removed comment about the behavior of other editors. We deal with disputes about article content, not disputes about user conduct. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:48, 25 September 2012 (UTC) ]
Opening comments by Martinvl
Wikipedia's first duty is towards the reader.
There are two articles related to the equations for the period of a pendulum, one is the article Pendulum and the other in the article Pendulum (mathematics). The second of these articles leads on from the first and is a more detailed account of the mathematics behind the pendulum. As a part-time physics tutor, I believe that 90% of Wikipedia readers researching pendulums will only read the first of these two articles and few will understand the second article.
At various times, four different formulae have been given in this article:
-
- where is the arithmetic-geometric mean of 1 and .
My analysis of these formulae is as follows:
- The first of these formulae is the formula that is taught to 17 and 18 year-old physics students. (I am a part-time physics tutor for this age-group).
- The second of these formulae shows an approximation to the correction needed when the angle θ is not small and is a real-life example of the Taylor series, an essential part of university level maths for engineers and scientists. In practice this formula will ensure that a longcase clock is accurate to better than 0.1 second per day.
- The third of these formulae adds nothing to the second other than additional accuracy – of the order of microseconds per day.
- The fourth of these formulae give an exact solution, but its relationship to the first equation is rather cryptic. In addition the function M is not one that is taught in a standard engineering or physics degree course.
From the reader’s point of view, it is essential to include the first of these equations in the article as this is the formula that is always taught at school or university. Thereafter, either the second or the third is highly instructive (I prefer the second), but the fourth equation is only really of interest to applied mathematicians and in practice is only encountered in university maths classes, never in university (or school) laboratories. I feel therefore that the fourth of these equations is out of place in a general article about pendulums, but is ideal material for the article Pendulum (mathematics). Martinvl (talk) 20:03, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Opening comments by 193.233.212.18
The dispute is being based on an ill posed question of whether or not the best formula ought to be taken out. [ Removed comment about the behavior of other editors. We deal with disputes about article content, not disputes about user conduct. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:48, 25 September 2012 (UTC) ] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.233.212.18 (talk) 13:41, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Talk:Pendulum discussion
Hello! Thank you for submitting a DRN request. Edit warring is usually not something that DRN handles. Consider taking this to WP:ANI or Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring if it continues. It looks like consensus has already been established on the article talk page, so there's not much else that DRN can do.--SGCM (talk) 01:34, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- @SGCM: You wrote "It looks like consensus has already been established on the article talk page". I looked at the article talk page, and there were discussions 13 Sept to 18 Sept, and the final comment (18 Sept) was "I've initiated a DRN case". After that, there are no more comments on the article talk page. So it looks like the parties have simply shifted the discussion here to DRN and would like some uninvolved editors to help reach consensus. Or is there another talk page I'm overlooking? --Noleander (talk) 14:43, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Comment – The "Period of Oscillation" section of pendulum should be a summary of the entire Pendulum (mathematics) article (per WP:SUMMARY STYLE). I would expect to see the 2 or 3 most important formulae represented in that section. My opinion is that the two most important formulae are:
The other formulae, including the infinite series, seem a bit too arcane for a top-level summary ... because they do not occupy a position of prominence in the Pendulum (mathematics) article. I guess my point is that the underlying differential equation should be included in the top-level article before resorting to the infinite series or the "M" arithmetic-geometric mean formulae. [From uninvolved editor] --Noleander (talk) 14:53, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- @Noleander, in the discussion, of the four involved users, only User:193.233.212.18 supports inserting the following formula into the article, and has been edit warring to keep it in:
- Which, as the discussion indicates, has no support from any of the other five editors. The consensus seem to be that the formula should remain in the Pendulum (mathematics) article and should not be placed in the Pendulum article. The Dispute Overview of the case states that the DRN case was filed mostly to stop User:193.233.212.18 from edit warring, which is something that DRN is not equipped to handle. If desired, I have no objections to the continuation of the DRN case--SGCM (talk) 18:17, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for your view, @Noleander, I agree. As you pointed out, SGCM, this is not the venue for dealing with the editwarring problem, since we have consensus, so I would be agreeable to terminating the dispute resolution process. Sorry, I guess I should have read the requirements on this page closer. --ChetvornoTALK 18:55, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- Not to get picky, but ... :-) The first sentence of this case is "The issue is whether to include a particular equation in the first section of the article Pendulum." And the case was filed by one of the "majority" participants, not the IP. It is often the case that a majority will "gang up" on a single editor, yet sometimes the single editor is correct (I am not saying that is the case here). DRN is supposed to be a haven for such persecuted souls. For that reason, the case should stay open a few days and let the IP present some source-based arguments on why the AGM formula is important. --Noleander (talk) 22:12, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for your view, @Noleander, I agree. As you pointed out, SGCM, this is not the venue for dealing with the editwarring problem, since we have consensus, so I would be agreeable to terminating the dispute resolution process. Sorry, I guess I should have read the requirements on this page closer. --ChetvornoTALK 18:55, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Comment by 114.147.131.50 Sorry to involve myself in this dispute, but I was astonished to see an exact formula for the pendulum period. It is true that it is not in the standard school or university programs, but for the very simple reason that – no exact formula existed so far. The power of Wikipedia is in its evolution. As science has advanced to give us the exact formula, it should be with no doubt be mentioned here at the top, with the traditional school formulas below as a simplified formulas as it is done is any other article. 1:46, 21 September 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.147.131.50 (talk)
- Just to clarify, the exact formula that you mentioned used the arithmetic-geometric mean, which is just a handy way of writing the converging series approximation for the period (an elliptic integral) which has been known for a long time (1850ish I think). Pretty handy though. a13ean (talk) 02:05, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- @IP: To justify inclusion of that AGM formula in the pendulum article, we need to see some source books that mention the AGM formula pretty prominently. For example, I'm looking at the Halliday/Resnick college physics text, and it includes the approximation for small angles; and it includes the infinite series, but it does not include the AGM formula. So that book suggest the AGM is not as important. If you could find a few introductory physics books that present the AGM formula with equal or greater emphasis than the infinite series, that could be persuasive. --Noleander (talk) 02:51, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Nice to hear a pure soul able to appreciate the exact formula. Everyone else better stop wasting time searching for it in textbooks as is well explained in the AMS(59,8) article. [ Removed comment about the behavior of other editors. We deal with disputes about article content, not disputes about user conduct. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:48, 25 September 2012 (UTC) ] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.233.212.18 (talk) 12:34, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- A possible compromise here is modify the pendulum article to state, in prose, that an "exact" formula exists based on the arithmetic-geometric mean, and link to the formula in the pendulum (mathematics) article. But I'm not sure about the word "exact" ... it may imply closed-form expression to some readers; but the AGM is generally not closed form: it usually requires infinite iteration. So the word "exact" may be misleading. How about "The period of a pendulum may also be calculated using an iterative algorithm, based on the arithmetic-geometric mean, which converges much more rapidly than the infinite series above." How does that sound? --Noleander (talk) 13:29, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Noleander's "compromise" suggestion seems acceptable to me mainly because it doesn't merely entail removing the best formula (that's simplest and "much more rapidly convergent" as is now being rightfully noted and properly emphasized). Furthermore, it's well referenced [ Removed comment about the behavior of other editors. We deal with disputes about article content, not disputes about user conduct. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:48, 25 September 2012 (UTC) ] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.233.212.18 (talk) 15:01, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- A possible compromise here is modify the pendulum article to state, in prose, that an "exact" formula exists based on the arithmetic-geometric mean, and link to the formula in the pendulum (mathematics) article. But I'm not sure about the word "exact" ... it may imply closed-form expression to some readers; but the AGM is generally not closed form: it usually requires infinite iteration. So the word "exact" may be misleading. How about "The period of a pendulum may also be calculated using an iterative algorithm, based on the arithmetic-geometric mean, which converges much more rapidly than the infinite series above." How does that sound? --Noleander (talk) 13:29, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
@114.147.131.50: "Exact" is misleading. There is no closed form formula for evaluating the arithmetic–geometric mean. It may converge faster numerically though. Tijfo098 (talk) 08:00, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
- The formula is exact and the convergence is quadratic. [ Removed comment about the behavior of other editors. We deal with disputes about article content, not disputes about user conduct. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:48, 25 September 2012 (UTC) ] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.233.212.18 (talk) 13:00, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
DRN Volunteer here; I just deleted a number of comments that violate DRN rules. As it says at the top of this page:
- What this noticeboard is not: It is not a place to deal with the behavior of other editors. We deal with disputes about article content, not disputes about user conduct.
- Things to remember: Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, and objective. Comment only about the article's content, not the other editors. Participants who go off-topic or become uncivil may be asked to leave the discussion.
- Sign and date your posts with four tildes "
~~~~
".
Some of the removed comments were simply describing user behavior (allowable, but not here) while others were personal attacks, which are not allowed anywhere on Wikipedia. I am placing a warning on one user's talk page about violating WP:NPA. Please don't do it again. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:48, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
GNU
Closed discussion |
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Diego Maradona
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Diego Maradona (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
Dispute overview
The user has repeatedly deleted many of my sources and descriptions on the article. My version of the article uses more references than his and still allows his to be included with making contradictions. His version makes impossible to add other popular views on the player. On top of that, the user has edited a section of the FIFA Poll made in 2000, only leaving the part that supports his views(the online poll) and leaving the FIFA magazine readers votes, and the experts votes out. There is no Website in the world that only refers to the online poll leaving out the rest. Pure vandalism. Another dispute of ours in the same article is that he has reverted my editing on an irrelevant reference from an article using the Castrol Rankings Website comparing Pele and Maradona. The article and Website did not support the description on the Wikipedia page saying "Maradona is the best ever" and it actually rated several other players above him. http://www.castrolfootball.com/legends/
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Discussing with the other user in our talk pages and in the articles talk page.
How do you think we can help?
-Not permit deletion of legitimate references. -possibly make the article semi-protected if that will help, as it has also received vandalism by users who are not logged in.
Opening comments by Kevin McE
Lsw10's edits had previously been identified by several visitors as having the ulterior motive of ensuring that description of Maradona's career makes lesser claims than that of Pele's. I believe him to be the IP who queried the description of having been called the greatest in the world on the talk page: this had previously been discussed at great length, and consensus was with the phrase. Lsw10 then edited the Pele article to that he is described as the greatest (no argument with the assertion that some people have said that), and set about removing the claim from the Maradona article: editing should not be motivated by such petty rivalry and while peacock terms should of course be avoided, desire to water down reported acclaim of a rival is an equally POV goal. It is equally accurate to say that Maradona (or Pele) has been said to be the best, or has been said to be one of the best: it is an editorial choice of prose, and once consensus has settled on one of the options, the authority of consensus in a stable article should be respected. This has not happened here.
Diego Maradona discussion
- Hi! I'm a DRN volunteer and will be mediating this discussion, after we get opening statements from all parties involved. Also, please see WP: BRD. Electric Catfish2 17:33, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
- I've requested an opening statement from the other user, as the bot has not notified him yet. Electric Catfish (talk) 18:09, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Innovation Journalism
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Innovation Journalism (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- Dnordfors (talk · contribs)
- OpenFuture (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
We need help to end the RfD. It was previously subject for Dispute Resolution which was constructive. The Dispute Resolution has been closed. However, the dispute seems to continue on the RfD page. The editor who initiated the RfD says I have no right to suggest that the RfD should be considered resolved.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Previous Dispute Resolution was successful in bringing the issue forward.
How do you think we can help?
Stay in the loop until the RfD is resolved. Please check the RfD page.
Opening comments by OpenFuture
Dnordfors has already brought Innovation Journalism up once here, and it was dealt with. What exactly the dispute is this time is not explained. He has been asked to wait for the end of the AfD already, but he did not. As far as I can tell this is all an attempt either of Wikilawyering around normal Wikipedia policies, or simply an attempt to waste the time of everybody involved. --OpenFuture (talk) 06:10, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Innovation Journalism discussion
Hello! Thank you for submitting a DRN request. As Noleander said in the last DRN case, please wait for the AfD discussion to run its course before bringing this to DRN. An AfD discussion cannot be closed (although there are rare exceptions) until a site administrator closes it. A deletion discussion runs for around a week before an uninvolved administrator evaluates the consensus, and decides whether to keep or delete the article. For more information, see Wikipedia:AFD#How an AfD discussion is closed.--SGCM (talk) 00:35, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
- Further, if you can't seem to get the *fD to close, consider filing at Requests for closure. Hasteur (talk) 11:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you, this is useful information. It is the first time I get involved in something like this, I am learning as we go. I did not know who had the right to close the discussion, but I have now learned it through your comment. If I get this right - here is the list of English Wikipedia site administrators: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers/sysop&limit=5000 . If this is the correct list, then neither OpenFuture nor I have the privileges to close the AfD - correct?
- The initial application for deletion claim was filed on Sep 10 - two weeks ago. I believe enough has been said to judge if the claim for deletion stands or not. The discussion climate between OpenFuture and myself is not good, there is a lack of trust. Might it be time to apply for a site administrator to look at the discussion and close it? --dnordfors (talk) 19:31, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
- The AfD will likely be closed soon by an administrator, or relisted once more to invite further comments from other third party editors. If the administrator decides that no consensus has been established, then the discussion will be closed as no consensus and kept by default, as per Wikipedia:Consensus#No consensus. --SGCM (talk) 19:48, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Vacy, New South Wales
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Vacy, New South Wales (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- AussieLegend (talk · contribs)
- Benyoch (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
I'm having an issue with another editor at Vacy, New South Wales which has been exacerbated by some incivility from the other editor. The latest issue regards the wording of the introduction, which is supported by reliable sources. The other editor wants to "reinterpret" the wording of the sources and is concentrating on one source, rather than look at all the supporting sources. Vacy is legally recognised as a locality, which in Australia has a specific meaning, that being "a bounded area having a "rural" character. The introduction originally said "rural locality"; I removed "rural" which was redundant (a bit like "ATM machine" or "3 a.m in the morning") but was reverted by the other editor, who has now decided "rural place", which has an entirely different meaning, is more appropriate. His edits are interspersed with inappropriate comments in edit summaries,[44][45][46][47] baseless allegations,[48] and the odd personal attack.[49] Together these make it hard to carry on a civilised discussion.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I have raised matters on the article's talk page. The most recent issue is here, but the only response by Benyoch was baseless allegation,[50] after which he simply added undiscussed OR to the article.[51] I've also addressed problems on Benyoch's talk page (here) but that seems to be going nowhere.
How do you think we can help?
Honestly, I'm hoping that another voice will help raise the civility level a few points and allow us to discuss in a more productive manner.
Opening comments by Benyoch
Vacy, New South Wales discussion
Talk:Diablo III
Closed discussion |
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Talk:Sleigh Bells discography
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Talk:Sleigh Bells discography (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
Dispute overview
Erpert recently created the article Sleigh Bells discography. I noticed a number of small issues, including that some of the songs he listed as singles were not, in fact, released as singles (i.e., a type of musical release that can be purchased or obtained independent of the parent album). For the duration the argument, Erpert has maintained that music videos and singles are one and time same. I disagree and maintain (which is consistent with what the Song and Discography Projects believe) singles and music videos are two separate entities. While singles can have a corresponding music video for promotional or artistic purposes, a single can also exist without a music video, and likewise, a music video can exist without there being a single for the same song. On multiple occasions I have asked Erpert to provide any sort of evidence to support the songs he is calling singles have actually been released as singles, but instead he insists he has already provided this evidence, and that I should provide evidence to support music videos and singles are different things.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
A third opinion was requested, but the arguing seemed to get worse after someone commented. Erpert did not want to participate in the third opinion's solution of illustrating both of our positions with a list. I also reached out to two WikiProjects (Songs and Discographies) and a response from Michig supports my view, but Erpert still wants to see some sort of source supporting the idea that singles and music videos are two different things.
How do you think we can help?
I'm not really sure what to say here, I just really want this long-winded argument over something so trivial to finally be put to rest. Unfortunately, I'm not sure there's much of a middle ground here. Either a song was released as a single or it wasn't. I guess just evaluate both of our arguments and go from there?
Opening comments by Erpert
The overview that Fezmar stated is so unbalanced. The talk page in question clearly shows that I have explained each of my actions every time more than once, so I'm not going to do that again here. What I will say is the same simple solution I gave Fezmar: if he (or anyone else) thinks a music video and a single are not the same thing, find a source that says so. And his stating that the music video and single (music) articles don't back up my claim is inaccurate. It's not that they don't say the two terms aren't the same; they don't mention them (in other words, there's no argument either way). There's a difference. Basically, the way I see it is, Fezmar is forum shopping because he doesn't like the way the third opinion came out, which is really disruptive (and yes, I'll admit that I said canvassing at first; I meant forum shopping). Erpert Who is this guy? | Wanna talk about it? 01:56, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Talk:Sleigh Bells discography discussion
Talk:Tanka prose
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Talk:Tanka prose (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- Elvenscout742 (talk · contribs)
- Tristan noir (talk · contribs)
- Kujakupoet (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview I am currently involved in a rather heated dispute at Talk:Tanka prose, and I am not sure what to do about it.
The dispute involves one user (User:Tristan noir) who created an article four years ago on the modern English genre of tanka prose. The article, however, made bizarre, unsourced claims about originating in ancient Japanese literature, despite the term being anachronistic in reference to pre-modern Japanese works.
He/she (from here on, for convenience, I will assume the user is male) basically claimed the article as his own, and almost any edit by other editors was immediately reverted.
When I first came across the article, I was very confused; I thought "tanka prose" was a translation of the Japanese term uta monogatari, which literally means "poem (exclusively, tanka) prose-fiction", so I moved the article to that location, citing a lack of usage of the term tanka prose in reputable secondary sources on Japanese literature. He responded by blankly reverting my move and other edits, as well as User:Bagworm's removal of a few unsourced statements he had made.
He still refused to cite reputable sources that backed up his claims.
I responded by re-reverting his unsourced reversion, and posting a comment on the Talk page where I cited several sources and challenged what little literature he quoted (which was written by people with very little awareness of Japanese language/literature). He responded by finally admitting that he was writing based on modern English literature, and claimed (unjustifiably) that his article had never claimed to be about Japanese literature.
At around this time, he apparently called in an ally, User:Kujakupoet, to back him up. This latter user made personal attacks against me, and completely ignored the substance of our dispute. His arguments, on the substance, seemed to back me up more than Tristan noir, since he basically said that tanka prose is a modern English form and should not be critiqued in terms of classical Japanese literature. Kujakupoet suddenly appeared and made single comment, claiming to have "just happened to be" looking for a tanka prose article and been shocked by what he somehow knew was the work of one editor and knew to post on the talk page in response. This happened less than two days after the page move, and he immediately went to the talk page where there was already a heated debate occurring. It seems highly unlikely that this was a coincidence, especially considering that his comment basically ignored what I actually said. He more recently made a similarly irrelevant, ad hominem remark]. This seems very likely, under the circumstances, to be a tag team, since both users have made barely 100 edits in four years, on very closely-related topics.
At this point, I suggested a compromise, which Tristan noir immediately agreed to, that the article I produced at uta monogatari remain as is, and tanka prose (then a redirect) be rewritten by him to focus exclusively on the modern English genre, and not to make bizarre claims about ancient Japanese literature.
However, I realized that his sources all made the same bizarre claims as his article had, and it would be difficult to construct an encyclopedia article without using these sources and making the same claims, so I posted a hidden remark on the then-redirecting talk page expressing this fear. I hoped that he would take this opinion into account in his rewrite, or reconsider producing a rewrite at all.
But when he finally produced his rewrite, I was disappointed with the results.
His new article made the same claims of ancient Japanese origin as before, in clear violation of our agreement. Except that this time, he had worded the article in such a way that it never directly stated that "tanka prose" existed in ancient Japan, but rather included a lengthy remark about so-called "prosimetra" (prose-plus-poetry) in ancient Japan.
I never disputed that ancient Japanese literature combined poetry and prose, but merely stated that the term "tanka prose" would be anachronistic, and is therefore not used in academic literature. His new rewrite, however, basically implied that the ancient Japanese literature discussed is intrinsically related to modern English "tanka prose". It used weasel words and cleverly worded sentences so as not to actually state that "tanka prose" existed in ancient Japan, but to distinctly imply it.
He included references to two apparently reliable sources on ancient Japanese literature, but one of them is very old and out-of-print in both Japan and the United States (a complete copy on Amazon.jp would cost well over 10,000 yen [52][53][54][55][56], and one in English would cost $500 dollars [57][58][59]) and is very difficult to access. The other, an article by Helen McCullough, has clearly been taken out of context (he cited earlier in the dispute its inclusion in a book about prosimetra as being in itself evidence in his support).
He continually refuses to provide quotations or specific paraphrases from these sources that justify the use of the phrase "tanka prose" or their relevance to an article on said subject.
I initially tried to remove one very bizarre statement from the new article (which wasn't even in the previous version) that nikki bungaku (diary literature) includes fictional tales (monogatari) and poetry anthologies (shū). It is reasonable to discuss a certain small sub-genre of waka-shū (private collections that are written in a diary-style) as falling under the category of nikki-bungaku, but not all waka-shū, which most notably includes Imperially-sponsored anthologies (chokusen-shū). (The statement included one reference to the aforementioned obscure/expensive source, but clearly was out-of-context, because no respected source on Japanese literature would make such a claim.) He immediately reverted my edit, apparently thinking that simply having a source that claims something remotely similar to what the statement claims makes this behaviour justifiable.
As of now, I have grown weary of being cautious in my edits, and I am tired of being attacked personally and professionally without being able to fight back (I have tried throughout to be civil). I posted on the talk page that, since a significant portion of the middle of the new article signified a clear violation of the previous agreement, I intended to delete it, before going ahead with it.
I am not sure about what Tristan noir's response on the page in question will be (he hasn't replied on the talk page, nor made any edits to the article page since), but when I posted this same notice on the Administrators' Noticeboard in which he basically attacked me for having an aggressive tone, but given the circumstances I have actually been far too subdued until now. The sources he has cited are, frankly, full of nonsense. Their claims about Japanese literary history are completely and utterly bizarre. I was wondering if anyone has any advice about this issue? The users in question clearly do not understand Wikipedia policies on civility and other concepts, and I have become very weary of dealing with their personal attacks. I know the dispute still isn't at the point of seeking arbitration, but I'm not sure about bringing in opinions from the Wikipedia community. Since he has cited "sources" (he appears to have read them with the prejudiced attitude of looking for sources to justify statements he had already formulated), and it may appear to the overwhelming majority of Wikipedians who don't have access to those rare, expensive sources that his statements as they are now are justified.
For those who check all the lengthy background of this dispute, you will notice that I had harsh words for Jeffrey Woodward (the principle source for Tristan noir's claims) -- that he is non-academic, unreliable, offensive, etc. This might seem extreme out of context, but everything I have read by him contains major problems due to his ignorance of classical Japanese literature. It would be very difficult to summarize these problems here, but I actually wrote him an e-mail detailing them and politely requesting that he not repeat them in future publications (they are all recurring errors). I would be happy to post an appropriate portion of the text of this e-mail here or elsewhere on Wikipedia if anyone requires further details. (However, several of my principle complaints are already on the relevant talk pages.)
I apologize for the extremely long overview. I wanted to get this history out on the table first in case anyone gets the wrong idea. My hope is that, in posting this very long an detailed summary I will save myself having to engage in an even more drawn-out dispute on a trivial topic than I already have.
Opening comments by Tristan noir
- The misrepresentations of fact, with respect to the compromise on content that was made and, indeed, as regards various other matters raised by Elvenscout in his remarks above, are so numerous that it would be tiresome to list them all here and offer a counter-argument for each. Suffice it to say that I did agree, as did he, to a compromise, but I did not agree, in the terms of that compromise, to avoid any mention of Japanese literature; I specifically stated that I would refrain, where possible, from discussing the subject. There is indeed a serious dispute about content as regards the article in question. I welcome the interest of any neutral third party, administrator or otherwise, in reviewing the discussions that Elvenscout alludes to here at the original Talk Page and here at the Talk Page where the revised article is posted; I would welcome a review as well of his comments in his Edit Summaries here and again here. I mention the later because the tone of his remarks in the Edit Summaries consistently echoes the tone displayed in his Talk Page comments. That tone is dismissive and disparaging, and is offered with a relentless parade of pejorative adjectives and adverbs. His comments, from the first, have not been offered in a spirit of cooperation or of joint work with a fellow editor but often revert to the personal level. There is also the associated problem that User: Elvenscout742 appears to have claimed ownership of all matters pertaining to the vast field of Japanese literature; no comment on the subject can be offered without a laundry list of objections from him and no sentence that touches even marginally upon the topic can appear without his say-so. In his latest action, he has removed half of the posted article in question, a major edit by anyone’s definition, and he has done so unilaterally. He did not attempt to challenge the citations or to refute them nor, in fact, to consult them. Instead, he imputes, in his usual personal manner, bad faith on the part of another editor (see the Talk Page again), and offers that as his justification for the unilateral move. Again, I welcome the interest of any neutral third party in this matter.
- User: Elvenscout742, subsequent to his initial statement above, has offered another compromise here as regards the content of the subject article Tanka prose. I’m currently assessing his/her offer.Tristan noir (talk) 17:33, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Opening comments by Kujakupoet
Talk:Tanka prose
Sigmund Freud
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Sigmund Freud (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
Dispute overview
There is a long-running dispute on the Freud talk page regarding postings on the Science section of the Freud page. [60] It has reached an impasse.
It is about the appropriateness (in terms of certain specific of the content, but above all on the proportionality of the amount of space devoted to a relatively minor contributor to Freud scholarship) of one editor's postings on the Freud page.
If anyone can come in on this I would be grateful. If you do venture forth, after seeing the initial postings to get the flavour of the topic, the endless point/counterpoint that follows should be skipped, down to the most recent postings at the end.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Apart from trying to be reasonable, and making a major concession to the point of view expressed by the editor with whose views I differ, I have taken no steps for dispute resolution
How do you think we can help?
By having an outsider check out what is going on and come in with comments.
Opening comments by Almanacer
Its important to understand that this dispute takes place in the context of the POV notice added recently to the front page of the Freud article. The editor who did this, Hypoplectrus, has expressed specific concerns with the content and lack of balance in the Science section (see Talk Page), concerns which I share and to which I have responded in editing the page by adding the disputed content. It also needs noting that Esterton, who has been regularly active as an editor in this section, is also an author whose works are cited and referenced this section in criticism of advocates of Freud's work. His low opinion/POV on of Donald Levy and his repeated removal of an important summary of Levy's defence of Freud's scientific credibility by an author whose views are in direct opposition to his own can therefore be reasonably questioned in terms of a NPOV.
Hypoplectrus has reached the same conclusion as myself on the talk page: "Esterton and Polisher of Cobwebs should stop preventing other editors from adding sourced material. That is most certainly part of the reason that the article does not have a neutral POV." I would add that I amended my summary of Levy twice in response to comments by Esterton and explained to him why I was restoring the text he deleted (and continues so to do). It seems to me absurd to question the appropriateness or disproportionality (less than 200 words) of a summary of a defence of Freud's scientific credibility in the Science section of the Freud article. Almanacer (talk) 22:14, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Opening comments by Polisher of Cobwebs
This is a rather complicated debate, that has been ongoing for some time at the Freud article. It's hardly possible to discuss all the details here, but the main issue at present is that Almanacer wants the article to cover the views of Donald Levy, one of many writers who has expressed views on the scientific merits of psychoanalysis, in more detail than either Esterson or I considers appropriate. Almanacer has continued to add this material despite objections, and the lack of consensus for it at the talk page, most recently here. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 21:56, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Esterson
I concur with the request below that any further discussion by the editors involved should be on the Freud Talk page. (Anyway, there is no way I could respond adequately to Almanacer's tendentious account above in 2000 characters.)
I will however point out a couple of errors of fact by Almanacer. The first is his assertion that the citation to my publication in the Science section relates to criticism of advocates of Freud's work. This is erroneous. The criticism is of Grunbaum, who is a celebrated critic of Freud. Alamanacer's second error is his stating that I have a low opinion of Donald Levy. In fact I have mixed feelings about the book cited by Almanacer (Freud Among the Philosophers). Taken as a whole, I essentially agree with Levy's chapter spelling out his criticisms of Grunbaum. (Another error is Almanacer's writing of my cited "works", in the plural. There is only one citation.) I will also note that my proposed paragraph, which is in full accord with Almanacer's concern for the citing of authors favourable to Freud (I cited four such authors, giving their views), included a sentence stating a relevant viewpoint by Levy, thereby adding to the citation to Levy already in an earlier paragraph.
I request that any editor who comes in on this dispute should go to the Science section on the Freud Talk page [61], skip down to the very end of that section, and read my two objections to Almanacer's disproportionate space given to Levy (and my criticisms of Almanacer for his repeated postings on the Freud page without consultation despite there being an ongoing dispute). Esterson (talk) 23:48, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Freud Talk page Science section discussion
- ^ [62]
- ^ [63]
- ^ Mary Cawkell (January 1983). The Falkland story, 1592–1982. A. Nelson. p. 30. ISBN 978-0-904614-08-4. Retrieved 27 May 2012.
- ^ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Self-determination&diff=next&oldid=512661642