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::ever hear about [[WP:OWN]] ? all editors are equal, and are judged in each discussion on the basis of what they say there. If we're going by reputation instead, I consider MRG to have a reputation for excessively strict interpretation of WP:Copyright, and the difficulty in counteracting her establish Ownership is why I rarely work in that area. In a doubtful case, I would not see any reason to follow her, though I would certainly listen to what she said. Suppose I had closed, and given that as my argument--I hope it would have been reversed here. Copyright does not have privileged status for deletion, unless it's undoubted copyvio--in which case I've deleted a few thousand articles: I strongly agree with basic copyright policy. '''[[User:DGG| DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG| talk ]]) 20:02, 11 May 2012 (UTC) |
::ever hear about [[WP:OWN]] ? all editors are equal, and are judged in each discussion on the basis of what they say there. If we're going by reputation instead, I consider MRG to have a reputation for excessively strict interpretation of WP:Copyright, and the difficulty in counteracting her establish Ownership is why I rarely work in that area. In a doubtful case, I would not see any reason to follow her, though I would certainly listen to what she said. Suppose I had closed, and given that as my argument--I hope it would have been reversed here. Copyright does not have privileged status for deletion, unless it's undoubted copyvio--in which case I've deleted a few thousand articles: I strongly agree with basic copyright policy. '''[[User:DGG| DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG| talk ]]) 20:02, 11 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::The WMF asked us to remove the Time 100 lists, despite the fact that if you or I did it on our personal websites, no one would blink. Just like with NFC, we take a stronger , proactive stance on copyright per the WMF direction. --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 20:27, 11 May 2012 (UTC) |
:::The WMF asked us to remove the Time 100 lists, despite the fact that if you or I did it on our personal websites, no one would blink. Just like with NFC, we take a stronger , proactive stance on copyright per the WMF direction. --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 20:27, 11 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::Yes, I have heard of [[WP:OWN]] (by weird coincidence I've already referenced once today on something completely different). I don't see this as an ownership issue at all but rather accepting that someone has shown, thorough their on-wiki actions, what is generally considered a good understanding of the subject. I have not said we should follow her view regardless rather that we acknowledge expertise and take that into account. I take your point about "what they say there" but if we applied that strictly across the board are you also arguing we shouldn't label comments from people with "few or no other contributions outside this subject" which we regularly see at AfD. If you're arguing that we should only take into account what a person says in a discussion then surely these should go to. |
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::::I also disagree that copyright does not have privileged status. It's one of the few areas that could get us into real legal trouble and I think it would be incredibly dumb of us not to err on the side of caution in all areas that could cause us legal troubles, be it [[WP:BLP]], copyright problems or something else. |
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::::As a slight aside I actually disagree with Moonriddengirl's assessment that this is a copyvio and think it's probably not. I do however think that it could be a copyvio so think erring on the side of caution and deleting makes sense. This is, of course, a moot point for a DRV as I should have mentioned it at the AfD not here. |
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::::As a final aside I don't think Moonriddengirl acts like she owns copyright - I've always found her open to discussion when we disagree. However there are very few editors that work copyright problems so she does inevitably end up dealing with a lot of it and I can see how this ''appears'' as ownership. Only having a few editors dealing with the area is obviously a bad thing as it hardly allows consensus. So instead of just moaning about it why don't you try helping out and if you still think there are problems try to improve things? [[User:Dpmuk|Dpmuk]] ([[User talk:Dpmuk|talk]]) 20:59, 11 May 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Overturn'''. By following all the conversation here the best thing would have been to delete the "Description" column. Once that is gone then it becomes a list of monsters with publication notes. Still useful. Honestly this is why we should be editing articles and not deleting them. [[User:Webwarlock|Web Warlock]] ([[User talk:Webwarlock|talk]]) 20:39, 11 May 2012 (UTC) |
*'''Overturn'''. By following all the conversation here the best thing would have been to delete the "Description" column. Once that is gone then it becomes a list of monsters with publication notes. Still useful. Honestly this is why we should be editing articles and not deleting them. [[User:Webwarlock|Web Warlock]] ([[User talk:Webwarlock|talk]]) 20:39, 11 May 2012 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 20:59, 11 May 2012
10 May 2012
List of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 1st edition monsters
- List of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 1st edition monsters (talk||history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
This list article was brought to AFD on May 2 by Axem Titanium over concerns that it violated WP:GAMEGUIDE, may have violated WP:COPYVIO, and had no references to support its notability. Independent sources were added during the course of the discussion, which rendered WP:NOTE a non-issue, and shifted the discussion to the two other concerns. Sandstein, who closed the discussion, noted that "There is clearly no consensus" about the GAMEGUIDE argument. As these two concerns were not motivating factors in the close, this DRV is not an attempt to address either one.
OrenBochman (BO) replied first with a Keep, contending that the nominator's argument for copyvio was "unconvincing" and giving an explanation; the nominator did not contest those points. I responded next with another Keep, noting my agreement with this copyvio argument, and as Polisher of Cobwebs and Robbstrd both also indicated Keep per me, I will assume that they therefore also agreed with OrenBochman's arguments. Jclemens next replied with a Keep, asserting again that the list is not a copyvio. Sangrolu also replied with a Keep, and also contended that the article is not a copyvio. All of these responses are to the original nominator's argument regarding possible copyvio.
Masem added the first Delete response, and was also the first to begin any detailed discussion about why he felt this was a copyright violation, and discussed this with Sangrolu and Postdlf. Masem approached Moonriddengirl on her talk page for input, which she provided, with addition discussion on the subject. Orangemike and Shooterwalker both argued to Delete the article based on WP:GAMEGUIDE; neither one addressed the potential copyvio issue. Postdlf, however, was ultimately convinced by Moonriddengirl's argument and responded to Delete.
After her input, David Shepheard (Big Mac) and Daranios both argued to Keep based on disagreement with the nominator's other arguments for deletion, but after discussion both also noted that they did not feel the list is a copyright violation. Hobit and Webwarlock both also argued to Keep based on the list not being a copyright problem. Marikafragen also contributed to the discussion about copyright violation, and although the repsonse is inline, also argued to Keep. There is a fair amount of discussion of the issue after Moonriddengirl's initial posting, and I have only summarized the nature of the respondents here.
Sandstein's rationale for the close mentioned Moonriddengirl's "prima facie persuasive case" for copyvio argument, although he admits that "I myself am not sure that I agree with it". He also contended that because almost all of the "keep" opinions "do not address her analysis but at best only assert that the list is not a copyright violation, without giving reasons why. These arguments are not persuasive and must therefore be discounted." It is not clear from this description which Keep opinions were counted or discounted or why they were or were not persuasive. I did not respond to Moonriddengirl's analysis because I had already made my feelings on the issue of copyvio clear and did not feel the need to repeat myself; I can only wonder if anyone else did the same thing. If I had known it was necessary to counter all arguments, I would have done so.
All eleven users responding with Keep did address the copyvio issue in some form (two by deferring their responses to me) as I believe I have demonstrated, most disagreeing with the rationale or calling it into question, and several of them offered their own persective on the issue. Of the five people indicating Delete, only three offered their thoughts on the copyvio issue. Is this a consensus to delete based on copyright violation? That is the only issue that needs to be determined here; not whether you agree with one rational or another, just whether this AFD had come to the consesus that the closer posited.
It could be argued to Relist the AFD, but I am concerned that this discussion Masem started could taint the results. Therefore, it is my opinion that the article should be Overturned to at the very least a No consensus to allow it to be rexamined again in the future. BOZ (talk) 16:40, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Closing admin's comment: I closed this as a "delete" because Moonriddengirl (supported by others) made a good case that the list amounted to a copyright violation. Almost all "keep" opinions that addressed this issue simply asserted that there was no copyright violation, without bothering to explain why. Copyright is a serious and rather complicated issue; it depends not on editorial judgment (as with most AfD issues) but on legal arguments that apply the relevant specialized policy as well as U.S. statutory and case law to the content at issue. The "keep" opinions failed to do so, perhaps with the exception of Marikafragen or one or two other people. So, to summarize, among contributors who appeared to have given thought to the problems surrounding copyright in lists, there was sufficient concern about this being a copyvio that I had to delete it. Now, I suppose the copyvio discussion could well come to a different conclusion, if it were to occur in more depth, which is why I suggested in my closure that DRV could be the place for that. (Or perhaps here?) Sandstein 17:28, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Endorse. Well within admin discretion. T. Canens (talk) 17:41, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- I rethought my question above about consensus, and I feel that an even better question to ask would be "Was there a consensus that there even was a copyright violation?" BOZ (talk) 17:52, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- If there's a perceived copyright violation, no amount of consensus can overturn that. We are proactive to remove these once discovered. It's fair to argue (again, I was expecting this DRV and thus started the noted discussion) so that there may be a reason to readd it, but until we know that it is clearly not a copyvio, we have to remove it. --MASEM (t) 19:00, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- not so. If there is an obvious unmistakable copyright violation, sure. But if there's only a possible copyright violation, the community decides by consensus whether it is a sufficiently clear copyvio for deletion. Calling "Copyvio!" by itself is not enough. Quite the opposite, until we decide it is a copyvio we do not remove it. If there is no consensus that it is in fact a copyvio, we do not remove it. that would be copyright paranoia. DGG ( talk ) 19:20, 10 May 2012 (UTC) Who else is going to decide for us? (unless it's an office action, which this was not). there is no presumption that an ambiguous case is copyvio. If the admin closed on that basis, it must be overturned as contrary to policy --and contrary to reason also. DGG ( talk ) 19:20, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- I point to Sandstein's call above that based on the copyvio arguments (whether it was or not) that the arguments weren't convincing that it wasn't a copyvio. Ergo the reason to delete is appropriate, until such time that the copyvio issue is resolved. That's why I started that new discussion because I recognized the straw-men arguments that could result and that we're going to need better clarity. (I do note that our NFC policy is also similarly proactive in removing content that may be against fair-use though can be restored later if that was determined to be at fault). --MASEM (t) 19:38, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- not so. If there is an obvious unmistakable copyright violation, sure. But if there's only a possible copyright violation, the community decides by consensus whether it is a sufficiently clear copyvio for deletion. Calling "Copyvio!" by itself is not enough. Quite the opposite, until we decide it is a copyvio we do not remove it. If there is no consensus that it is in fact a copyvio, we do not remove it. that would be copyright paranoia. DGG ( talk ) 19:20, 10 May 2012 (UTC) Who else is going to decide for us? (unless it's an office action, which this was not). there is no presumption that an ambiguous case is copyvio. If the admin closed on that basis, it must be overturned as contrary to policy --and contrary to reason also. DGG ( talk ) 19:20, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- In short, no. Here's the thing: the article was closed on the premise that Moonriddengirl made the case that there was a WP:COPYVIO. In fact, Moonriddengirl agreed with my assessment that the article was fair use, but qualifying that at wikipedia, we need to be more conservative that US fair use guidelines. That being the case, what decides what is "conservative enoough" other than consensus? Given that the commenter that the closing admin says demonstrated WP:COPYVIO in fact agreed that it was fair use, I don't see how the closing admin is justified in deleting without consensus. - Sangrolu (talk) 20:28, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, I'm afraid you misunderstood me. I agreed with you that "fair use" was the only avenue we had to make use of the material. :/ I actually evaluated the fair use criteria and myself felt, as I said, that "While only a court could determine definitively, I think that this list is likely a substantial copyright problem." --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:35, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- If there's a perceived copyright violation, no amount of consensus can overturn that. We are proactive to remove these once discovered. It's fair to argue (again, I was expecting this DRV and thus started the noted discussion) so that there may be a reason to readd it, but until we know that it is clearly not a copyvio, we have to remove it. --MASEM (t) 19:00, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Endorse As the closing admin says, a rational case was put for regarding this as a copyright infringement, whereas no rational case was put for not regarding it as such. The earliest "keep" arguments simply asserted that it is not a copyright infringement without elaboration (e.g. "Not a copyvio" from Jclemens, "The article as a whole is not a WP:COPYVIO" from Sangrolu). Later, attempts were made to go further, but they did not actually provide any reason. For example, we have "The list of Toyota cars is not copyrightable - that's factual data. Names are not copyrightable, but trademarkable" from MASEM: however, the issue is whether the list is copyright, not whether the names on the list are copyright. Then there is "I don't think the list is subject to copyright any more than a list of characters or list of actors for a show would be" from Hobit, but "I don't think the list is subject to copyright" does not give any a reason for believing it isn't. I don't know what I would have said had I been closing the discussion, but there is absolutely no basis for regarding the actual decision as being outside the range of discretion that an administrator is expected to exercise. JamesBWatson (talk) 19:34, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hobit's argument is a perfectly good one and should not have been discounted. Whether a list like this is copyright is a matter of judgement, and his is as good as yours. DGG ( talk ) 19:39, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- As good as mine? I have no idea whether the list is copyright. What is at issue is not whether it is, but whether the closing admin correctly assessed consensus in the discussion. According to Wikipedia's concept of consensus, what matters is not just how many people express an opinion, but the strength of the arguments advanced. "I don't think the list is subject to copyright" without any reason advanced for holding that opinion is about as weak an argument as it is possible to come up with. JamesBWatson (talk) 19:44, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Arguably, in Hobit's defense, he asked "what makes this different from a list of characters?" (all completely fair devils advocate questions). I'm not saying that's necessary a strong argument either way, but he expressed more than just a "I like it/I hate it"-type opinion that is generally ignored. --MASEM (t) 19:47, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- As good as mine? I have no idea whether the list is copyright. What is at issue is not whether it is, but whether the closing admin correctly assessed consensus in the discussion. According to Wikipedia's concept of consensus, what matters is not just how many people express an opinion, but the strength of the arguments advanced. "I don't think the list is subject to copyright" without any reason advanced for holding that opinion is about as weak an argument as it is possible to come up with. JamesBWatson (talk) 19:44, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hobit's argument is a perfectly good one and should not have been discounted. Whether a list like this is copyright is a matter of judgement, and his is as good as yours. DGG ( talk ) 19:39, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Endorse we can't take chances on copyvio material, and the encyclopedic value of a list of monsters appearing in one edition of one game hovers right around zero anyway. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 20:22, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- I rarely disagree with Moonriddengirl about copyright, but in this case I'm not seeing a consensus to delete in that discussion, and I find the argument that this is a copyvio totally unconvincing. We're merely producing a list of the work's contents in alphabetical order, and that's all. If we were reproducing game statistics then sure, this would be a copyvio, but a simple contents list? I don't believe a word of it.—S Marshall T/C 20:37, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- In MRG's first comment, she writes, "I see no critical commentary here; it is a page by page index with explication which incorporates by explicit link many detailed descriptions of the TSR versions of legendary creatures and their original ones." She later clarifies that she is concerned by the system of articles: the list and the individual monster articles. If the articles are considered together, they are awfully similar to the Monster Manual. Flatscan (talk) 04:30, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- That is my concern, yes. The last time I checked with legal, there was no known precedent for whether or not articles should be judged in isolation in terms of "substantial similarity" or whether spreading the contents of one book over multiple articles was a factor. I note that when we received a complaint from the publishers of the DSM-IV a couple of years ago, we were called on to judge in aggregate rather than isolation, but other factors may have influenced that (including complaint from the copyright holder and the fact that many of the articles would probably have infringed copyright on their own). I'd feel a lot more comfortable with this situation if there was more critical analysis or other transformative content to support our use of the material. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:40, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Good points, well argued, from both of you; but I'm afraid I remain strongly of the view that this should be overturned. The argument is that if the articles are considered together then they resemble the Monster Manual to too great a degree. In fact as far as I can see the Monster Manual is an eclectic cobbling-together of (1) material to which nobody can claim copyright (giants, dragons, vampires, zombies etc.) and (2) undisguised or thinly-disguised ripoffs of material originally generated by others (notably JRR Tolkein, Fritz Leiber and RE Howard). At the time of publication the new and original aspect of the Monster Manual was the way it converted fictional creatures which were almost without exception not original to the author, into what I understand as game pieces. Wikipedia makes no mention of the game statistics so can be no violation of TSR's copyright.
I see this as related to the much bigger question of to what extent Wikipedia can consist of abridgements of copyrighted works, and whether it's possible for Wikipedia to be anything but a series of abridgements of copyrighted works given how closely we enforce WP:V. I think that if we decide Wikipedia articles cannot be abridgements of copyrighted works, then there's a lot more urgent things to delete than this list!—S Marshall T/C 14:13, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Most of the monsters in the monster manuals are likely derivative works of tropes and the like that have long-entered the public domain or equivalent realm. That's a fair assessment. The problem is that because these are not (necessarily) slavish reproductions of the public domain work and include new creative elements, they have a brand new copyright assigned to TSR/Wizards. That it: TSR does not have a copyright on the idea of a zombie, but they do have a copyright on the D&D version of a zombie. So this is still a copyrighted work regardless of the basis. And because TSR published this list in its entirity in one place, it is defining the creative nature of the monsters and NPCs that inhabit its world, and ergo a creative collection itself. The reason other lists of characters/etc. aren't a problem is because it is very rare for the creative work to publish this directly themselves, and the compilation is a new work that is separate from the original fiction and thus not in the same boat. --MASEM (t) 14:22, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's not "likely" that giants and dragons and vampires and werewolves are "in the public domain or equivalent realm". It's fact: copyright in these things belongs to no-one. It's certainly true that TSR's successor company Wizards of the Coast have a copyright on the "D&D version of a zombie", but the "D&D version of a zombie" is inextricable from its in-game attributes that we do not reproduce on Wikipedia. Essentially the D&D version of a zombie is not an original work of fiction. It's a gaming piece, described in a table format and (if I understand this correctly) represented by a small lead miniature figure. Our article on D&D zombies does not and cannot possibly infringe, either as an individual article or as a part of our corpus on dungeons and dragons, because there is no way to get from the content of Zombie (Dungeons & Dragons) to a usable gaming piece, and there is no way that TSR's successor company can claim copyright in Zombies except in the specific context of their game. Do you see?—S Marshall T/C 16:29, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- TSR has created a creative setting which those game pieces are used. You are most likely right that game rules and concepts can't be copyrighted, but the creative world around it can be. Calling the D&D Zombie a "gaming piece" is drastically understating the creative aspects used by TSR to take the public domain aspect of a zombie and make it work in their creative fiction, even without considering any of their specific gameplay elements or statistics. --MASEM (t) 18:07, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Let me go back one step further. The reason the copyvio appears to be the case is exactly why we removed the Time 100 lists. Time doesn't own the copyright on the people on said list (obviously) but they own the creativity needed to assemble that list and place the people on it in that order. Thus, our recreation of that list, in whole, without transformation, is a copyvio. The same applies to this monster list here, it is a direct comparison. --MASEM (t) 18:14, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- I’ve seen this example brought up a few times, but I don’t think it’s a very accurate example in terms of similarity. If a company had published a list called “Our top 50 favorite D&D monsters”, and if someone reposted that list in its entirety on Wikipedia, then that would be more like reposting the Time 100 list. Posting the entire content list of a book of monsters would be more like posting the entire cast list of a movie instead of just the main characters, which is something IMDb does all the time. BOZ (talk) 18:25, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's not "likely" that giants and dragons and vampires and werewolves are "in the public domain or equivalent realm". It's fact: copyright in these things belongs to no-one. It's certainly true that TSR's successor company Wizards of the Coast have a copyright on the "D&D version of a zombie", but the "D&D version of a zombie" is inextricable from its in-game attributes that we do not reproduce on Wikipedia. Essentially the D&D version of a zombie is not an original work of fiction. It's a gaming piece, described in a table format and (if I understand this correctly) represented by a small lead miniature figure. Our article on D&D zombies does not and cannot possibly infringe, either as an individual article or as a part of our corpus on dungeons and dragons, because there is no way to get from the content of Zombie (Dungeons & Dragons) to a usable gaming piece, and there is no way that TSR's successor company can claim copyright in Zombies except in the specific context of their game. Do you see?—S Marshall T/C 16:29, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Most of the monsters in the monster manuals are likely derivative works of tropes and the like that have long-entered the public domain or equivalent realm. That's a fair assessment. The problem is that because these are not (necessarily) slavish reproductions of the public domain work and include new creative elements, they have a brand new copyright assigned to TSR/Wizards. That it: TSR does not have a copyright on the idea of a zombie, but they do have a copyright on the D&D version of a zombie. So this is still a copyrighted work regardless of the basis. And because TSR published this list in its entirity in one place, it is defining the creative nature of the monsters and NPCs that inhabit its world, and ergo a creative collection itself. The reason other lists of characters/etc. aren't a problem is because it is very rare for the creative work to publish this directly themselves, and the compilation is a new work that is separate from the original fiction and thus not in the same boat. --MASEM (t) 14:22, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Good points, well argued, from both of you; but I'm afraid I remain strongly of the view that this should be overturned. The argument is that if the articles are considered together then they resemble the Monster Manual to too great a degree. In fact as far as I can see the Monster Manual is an eclectic cobbling-together of (1) material to which nobody can claim copyright (giants, dragons, vampires, zombies etc.) and (2) undisguised or thinly-disguised ripoffs of material originally generated by others (notably JRR Tolkein, Fritz Leiber and RE Howard). At the time of publication the new and original aspect of the Monster Manual was the way it converted fictional creatures which were almost without exception not original to the author, into what I understand as game pieces. Wikipedia makes no mention of the game statistics so can be no violation of TSR's copyright.
- That is my concern, yes. The last time I checked with legal, there was no known precedent for whether or not articles should be judged in isolation in terms of "substantial similarity" or whether spreading the contents of one book over multiple articles was a factor. I note that when we received a complaint from the publishers of the DSM-IV a couple of years ago, we were called on to judge in aggregate rather than isolation, but other factors may have influenced that (including complaint from the copyright holder and the fact that many of the articles would probably have infringed copyright on their own). I'd feel a lot more comfortable with this situation if there was more critical analysis or other transformative content to support our use of the material. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:40, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Masem, you said, You are most likely right that game rules and concepts can't be copyrighted. That may be true in US law, but it's probably less useful to us than it sounds at first sight. My view is that the way the rules are presented can be copyrightable and indeed copyrighted. I'll explain this in terms of computer games because that's easier to envisage.
In a computer game, a zombie would have certain attributes. It would have a movement rate and an attack speed and a certain number of hit points. It would have a certain probability of hitting its target, and so on. These underlying "attributes" can't be copyrighted. But in the game it would be represented by models and sound effects which certainly are copyrighted.
Now, in TSR monster books, zombies are, I believe, detailed in a similar way, having a movement rate and hit points and an attack speed and all the rest of it. These attributes are not copyright. But they're presented in a table format which is copyrightable, and supplemented by copyrighted artwork and text.
Thus irrespective of whether game rules are copyrightable or not, we can't produce the in-game statistics. Neither can we reproduce the text that TSR's authors used, nor a close paraphrase of it. If we did those things, then we would be in breach of copyright, no argument at all. But my point is different. It's that TSR never owned anything to do with Zombies except for specific kinds of Zombies used as playing pieces in their game. Therefore we can't possibly be breaching TSR's copyright if we don't reproduce the data needed to use the creature in their game.
The argument that we're breaching copyright by reproducing the table of contents will not survive scrutiny and can be dismissed out of hand. The more subtle argument that originates with Moonriddengirl, i.e. that our table of contents together with our articles somehow combine to breach copyright, is more defensible but I still don't buy it, I think it's overcautious. If there's a breach of copyright then those taking the "delete" position need to point to a specific article or passage that does breach copyright. A vague wave at a whole topic area saying "that's too detailed, copyright breach!" seems like a most dangerous thing to allow.—S Marshall T/C 19:24, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not talking about hit points or the like. It has been a long while since I had to crack open my D&D manuals, but even my vague memory tells me that for many of these creatures (generally, the more mythological ones), there are backstories and "flavor text" that enhance the world setting. That is a creative element, even if they directly pull the monster from Greek myth, for example, and do nothing to its backstory. The combination of all that fills their world with color and flavor, and hence is one core of the creative setting TSR had made. A full list of the monsters, therefore, is outlining their creative world. So immediately one needs to recognize that this is an issue of fair use to start, period; from that, we apply all the tests and at that point, we recognize that we're using the whole list (even if absent of stats and other details), and we have no transformation of the work, both points against the list.
- Again, I bring up the Time 100 list verses the List of Time Person of the Year. The former is a creatively-constructed list, so inclusion in full is, to WMF's eyes, a copyvio. The List of Time Persons of the Year, on the other hand, is not a creative-constructed list though a list of creatively-selected people over time. It is still factual, and thus not protected by copyright, ergo inclusion in full is not a problem. The same analogy here: The list of monsters in the specific book is a creatively-constructed list; a list of notable monsters from all of D&D is not. --MASEM (t) 20:24, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- In MRG's first comment, she writes, "I see no critical commentary here; it is a page by page index with explication which incorporates by explicit link many detailed descriptions of the TSR versions of legendary creatures and their original ones." She later clarifies that she is concerned by the system of articles: the list and the individual monster articles. If the articles are considered together, they are awfully similar to the Monster Manual. Flatscan (talk) 04:30, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Overturn per BOZ. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 21:29, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Relist - It doesn't seem to me that many people in the discussion agreed with Moonriddengirl's analysis that the article was a copyright violation. It also doesn't seem clear to me that Moonriddengirl's analysis presents a reason to delete the article entirely as opposed to possibly trimming the content to remove excessive detail. At lot of the discussion was focused on WP:GAMEGUIDE, and I think further specifically on the copyright questions would be useful. I don't think there was a consensus to delete the article on copyright concerns, so I would favor a relist of the article with a comment making it clear that the relist is to come to a consensus on whether the article should or should not be deleted on copyright grounds. Calathan (talk) 21:33, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Endorse, but allow userfication and re-creation of a substantialy restructured page. I agree with the comments of Moonriddengirl, specifically that the page is a derivative work, with insufficient transformation of the primary source material taken directly from the copyrighted guides. Derivative works of fictional materials, if not a copyright infringement, is also really bad article writing. There has to be some transformation, using sources that discuss the monstors from a perspective outside of the game. A lot of care is required, and in the end it may be impossible, because transformation without enough sources falls foul of WP:NOR#WP:SYNTH. The best advice on how to proceed is found at WP:WAF, which the deleted article didn't follow at all. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:13, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Something completely different In a case where a Wikipedia page has a problem that's FIXABLE, deletion is probably not the best option, especially when everything else in Lists of Dungeons & Dragons monsters and its WP:SS components has the exact same problem. Rather, what's probably needed is a detailed rewrite of ALL of these pages, to remedy the copyright objections. Which, for the record, I disagree with Moonriddengirl's analysis, especially of clause 3, the amount of "copying" permissible under fair use. BUT, seeing as how a reasonable challenge has been identified, let's fix it. This decision eviscerates our coverage of D&D monsters, and really can't be allowed to the final word on the matter. Some of the "endorse"rs above may have lost sight of the fact that we're an encyclopedia, and need to cover things--if our current presentation is problematic, we need to fix it, not amputate large swaths of good content. Jclemens (talk) 05:21, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- The list wasn't fixable even with serious trimming - even if it was turned into a bare list of just the monsters as listed, it hit the copyvio problem. As I've said, the option of a list of notable D&D monsters in connection with their articles that include transformative use is appropriate, but not a straight-up list from the books. --MASEM (t) 05:26, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- No, it was fixable... but not necessarily via trimming, but by adding commentary as you describe below. BUT, I disagree that even without that it's a copyvio, since it omits not only the game stats (as MRG noted), but the descriptions as well. Furthermore, there's no clear decision--just an argument--that the amount reproduced constitutes copyright infringement. Per this, I would argue that by omitting the pictorial and literary material (pictures and notes), what is left mostly constitutes uncopyrightable game rules and ideas. Jclemens (talk) 16:42, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- What commentary could be added on the list to make it transformative? I agree some monsters themselves may have notable aspects to make the inclusion of their creative aspects appropriate in WP, but the full list of monsters from one rulebook? And there is still the fact that I mention above that the collection of the monsters and the like - even if just names - creates the backdrop and setting of the D&D world for them. What if TSR used ponies and bunnies and birds instead of zombies, ghouls, and dragons? You claim their game pieces, but clearly there's creativity in winding down what available creatures (mythological or real-world or otherwise) to create their setting. --MASEM (t) 18:14, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- No, it was fixable... but not necessarily via trimming, but by adding commentary as you describe below. BUT, I disagree that even without that it's a copyvio, since it omits not only the game stats (as MRG noted), but the descriptions as well. Furthermore, there's no clear decision--just an argument--that the amount reproduced constitutes copyright infringement. Per this, I would argue that by omitting the pictorial and literary material (pictures and notes), what is left mostly constitutes uncopyrightable game rules and ideas. Jclemens (talk) 16:42, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- The list wasn't fixable even with serious trimming - even if it was turned into a bare list of just the monsters as listed, it hit the copyvio problem. As I've said, the option of a list of notable D&D monsters in connection with their articles that include transformative use is appropriate, but not a straight-up list from the books. --MASEM (t) 05:26, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Overturn per BOZ. Basically it's a flawed close as just claiming copyright isn't enough, there needs to be an accepted case that there is a copyright problem. If instead any reasonable (but almost certainly wrong and generally rejected argument) is enough, there is easily a similar claim for Dr. Who or any other major series. And I assume that's where we'd be going (as the arguments are a LOT stronger there). Are we really talking about walking that route? Dr. Who has way way way more detailed and complete information about plot, characters etc. and certainly is more likely to interfere with commercial opportunities (the plot summaries allow people to catch up without paying to watch while this list doesn't have any of the material one would expect to want to know, nor (AFAIK) it the product still on the market. It would make me sad to walk that way, but I'm not seeing how we could do anything else and be consistent with this decision. Hobit (talk) 13:06, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- The reason that this specific list is a copyvio is two-fold. One is the lack of transformative information: there's nothing to discuss the significance of this list to the reader beyond "it came from the 1st edition book". Most of our other lists (lists of characters, episodes, etc.) are used in conjunction with development and reception to transform that information into something new. But the second factor is best explained by Jheald's response to the same devil's advocate questions I poised at WT:NFC. Specifically, this list is fundamentally and wholly part of the original creative work (it's straight out of the book without omission). In the case of episode lists or character lists, these are generally built up by multiple parts of the fiction (numerous episodes, etc.) and thus the list itself as made for WP is not a fundamental part of the creative work, even if the elements of the list are copyrighted. If the monster list was an assembly of all editions of D&D and only those that were notable (read: transformative information about said monsters on their respective pages) it wouldn't be a problem. But the whole recreation of the list of monsters from a single book without comment is copyvio. --MASEM (t) 13:17, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Endorse. I see nothing wrong with this close. AfDs are decided on strength of argument not vote counting or similar hence I think it's more than reasonable to weight Moonriddengirl's opinion heavily - she's one of (if not the) acknowledged text copyright person here and is also the person to discuss the issue with the WMF attorney. If everyone else was arguing that the article wasn't a copyvio then I might agree that the close was bad but there was support for her views. There is consensus that we err very much on the side of caution when it comes to copyvios and so deletion is reasonable even if there is less of a consensus than would normally be necessary for a delete. Dpmuk (talk) 19:10, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- ever hear about WP:OWN ? all editors are equal, and are judged in each discussion on the basis of what they say there. If we're going by reputation instead, I consider MRG to have a reputation for excessively strict interpretation of WP:Copyright, and the difficulty in counteracting her establish Ownership is why I rarely work in that area. In a doubtful case, I would not see any reason to follow her, though I would certainly listen to what she said. Suppose I had closed, and given that as my argument--I hope it would have been reversed here. Copyright does not have privileged status for deletion, unless it's undoubted copyvio--in which case I've deleted a few thousand articles: I strongly agree with basic copyright policy. DGG ( talk ) 20:02, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- The WMF asked us to remove the Time 100 lists, despite the fact that if you or I did it on our personal websites, no one would blink. Just like with NFC, we take a stronger , proactive stance on copyright per the WMF direction. --MASEM (t) 20:27, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I have heard of WP:OWN (by weird coincidence I've already referenced once today on something completely different). I don't see this as an ownership issue at all but rather accepting that someone has shown, thorough their on-wiki actions, what is generally considered a good understanding of the subject. I have not said we should follow her view regardless rather that we acknowledge expertise and take that into account. I take your point about "what they say there" but if we applied that strictly across the board are you also arguing we shouldn't label comments from people with "few or no other contributions outside this subject" which we regularly see at AfD. If you're arguing that we should only take into account what a person says in a discussion then surely these should go to.
- I also disagree that copyright does not have privileged status. It's one of the few areas that could get us into real legal trouble and I think it would be incredibly dumb of us not to err on the side of caution in all areas that could cause us legal troubles, be it WP:BLP, copyright problems or something else.
- As a slight aside I actually disagree with Moonriddengirl's assessment that this is a copyvio and think it's probably not. I do however think that it could be a copyvio so think erring on the side of caution and deleting makes sense. This is, of course, a moot point for a DRV as I should have mentioned it at the AfD not here.
- As a final aside I don't think Moonriddengirl acts like she owns copyright - I've always found her open to discussion when we disagree. However there are very few editors that work copyright problems so she does inevitably end up dealing with a lot of it and I can see how this appears as ownership. Only having a few editors dealing with the area is obviously a bad thing as it hardly allows consensus. So instead of just moaning about it why don't you try helping out and if you still think there are problems try to improve things? Dpmuk (talk) 20:59, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- The WMF asked us to remove the Time 100 lists, despite the fact that if you or I did it on our personal websites, no one would blink. Just like with NFC, we take a stronger , proactive stance on copyright per the WMF direction. --MASEM (t) 20:27, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- ever hear about WP:OWN ? all editors are equal, and are judged in each discussion on the basis of what they say there. If we're going by reputation instead, I consider MRG to have a reputation for excessively strict interpretation of WP:Copyright, and the difficulty in counteracting her establish Ownership is why I rarely work in that area. In a doubtful case, I would not see any reason to follow her, though I would certainly listen to what she said. Suppose I had closed, and given that as my argument--I hope it would have been reversed here. Copyright does not have privileged status for deletion, unless it's undoubted copyvio--in which case I've deleted a few thousand articles: I strongly agree with basic copyright policy. DGG ( talk ) 20:02, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Overturn. By following all the conversation here the best thing would have been to delete the "Description" column. Once that is gone then it becomes a list of monsters with publication notes. Still useful. Honestly this is why we should be editing articles and not deleting them. Web Warlock (talk) 20:39, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Greater Bristol Metro scheme
- Greater Bristol Metro scheme (talk||history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
Significant new information has come to light since deletion and the information in the deleted article would be useful to write a new article. (Noted that the previous information is already available because the result was merge.) But the closer has retired, so rather than boldly recreating the article, I'm seeking community consensus for its notability. Some new sources:[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] -- Trevj (talk) 09:01, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Comment. I participated in the original AfD so I don't know if it's appropriate for me to !vote here, but the reasons for the merge consensus last time were that there wasn't enough information for a standalone article, and that this rapid transit scheme hadn't got beyond the campaigning stage. All that the latest references seem to show is a revival of the campaign, so the scheme's broadly in the same state as it was when the AfD was originally closed. Anyway, I'd have thought the obvious home for this new information is Rail services in Greater Bristol#Greater Bristol Metro scheme. If it's clear that this section now contains too much information and would be better served by a standalone article, we can consider a split then. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 17:26, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for commenting. I wasn't aware of the article or the previous discussion until today. There's nothing wrong with short articles (even stubs) if the topic is a notable discrete subject. Notability has been established by the previous and recent sources. The metro project is a discrete subject and doesn't seem to fit in particularly coherently within Rail services in Greater Bristol. WP:MERGE states Merging should be avoided if the resulting article is too long or "clunky" [...] The current arrangement could be classified as "clunky". Therefore, if the subject is notable, there seems to be no good reason to merge the content elsewhere. -- Trevj (talk) 20:47, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Restore Just go right ahead. if anyone is unhappy with the result, a second AfD would be the way to go, since the content is different. DGG ( talk ) 19:56, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Favorite betrayal criterion (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Page was deleted for lack of notability. Recreated from scratch years later with a new source that appeared in intervening time. Would like history undeleted so that relevant content from old version is available for merging into new version. Homunq (talk) 01:19, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |