XavierItzm (talk | contribs) Haim Goury was right |
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:: See my comments [[Talk:The_Bloody_Day_in_Jaffa#Name|here]]. The source is simply describing April 19, 1936 as "a bloody day in Jaffa" not "''the'' bloody day in Jaffa". Also note the lack of capitalization. There's no indication that this is some kind of name. I found no secondary source calling this day by this name. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]] [[User Talk: Kingsindian|♝]] [[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|♚]] 01:20, 26 August 2016 (UTC) |
:: See my comments [[Talk:The_Bloody_Day_in_Jaffa#Name|here]]. The source is simply describing April 19, 1936 as "a bloody day in Jaffa" not "''the'' bloody day in Jaffa". Also note the lack of capitalization. There's no indication that this is some kind of name. I found no secondary source calling this day by this name. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]] [[User Talk: Kingsindian|♝]] [[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|♚]] 01:20, 26 August 2016 (UTC) |
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::: Here's a recent (2015) article published in major Israeli media (which includes [[Arutz_Sheva|the third largest weekend-circulation]] in that country) where the author specifically refers to the events of April 19-20, 1926, as, and I quote, «‘The Bloody Day in Jaffa’». [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 06:59, 26 August 2016 (UTC) |
::: Here's a recent (2015) article published in major Israeli media (which includes [[Arutz_Sheva|the third largest weekend-circulation]] in that country) where the author specifically refers to the events of April 19-20, 1926, as, and I quote, «‘The Bloody Day in Jaffa’». [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 06:59, 26 August 2016 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' This will be kept, of course, though it is incompetent trash, as one has come to expect from the editor's work in this area, which is essentially designed to make a [[Yad Vashem]] sector to the I/P conflict and seed in a victim mentality, and insinuate Arabs are terrorists. The technique is to select an incident where Jews have died by Palestinian violence, keep it decontextualized, repress the historical contexts, all on the basis of a couple of scrappy second rate sources. As an indication of what you must do if you want to contribute at a minimal basic level to article creation of this type, I wrote up for 2 hours a ''response'' to this crap, to show how it can be done, if that's one's obsessive interest. So, compare [[Black Sunday, 1937]]. Perhaps 1% of the automatic approvers for this rubbish will rethink their position, but I doubt it. [[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] ([[User talk:Nishidani|talk]]) 12:56, 26 August 2016 (UTC) |
Revision as of 13:09, 26 August 2016
The Bloody Day in Jaffa
- The Bloody Day in Jaffa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Firstly, the phrase ""The Bloody Day in Jaffa" gets exactly 3 hits in books.google.com: simply not notable.
Secondly (and more importantly): the present "article" is taking *one* tiny little snap-shot out of a large, complicated story, where there was a history of "tit for tat" revenge attacks. This article present itself as if these attacks were born out of nothing, which is of course rubbish. Huldra (talk) 20:37, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
- As for being in the List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine: Wikipedia is not WP:RS for a very good reason; it was put there by an IP, sourced to newspaper articles from 1936, in Hebrew. There is a mass of books, also in English, about the 1936–39 Arab revolt in Palestine; that it isn´t sourced to any of them should immediately have gotten alarm bells ringing. Huldra (talk) 21:20, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
- A highly POV reason for bringing an article to AFD. The title was selected for this notable pogrom/race riot for the simple reason that it is the title already used in Wikipedia in our List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine. I took that for consensus. If you wish to suggest an alternative title, the proper place to do so is on the talk page. But you might want to follow WP:BEFORE, or just google: jaffa 19 April 1936 [1], [2] and consider withdrawing this AFD. I am article creator.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:48, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
- Note that the quality of a page is generally not a good reason for deletion WP:DEL-CONTENT. Based on my wikipedia search I am a little concerned that most sources seem to be highly politicized. Have you looked through the sources the page? If they are legitimate, than I think those MIGHT provide evidence of notability. -Dan Eisenberg (talk) 20:53, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
- Keep and rename to something that those more knowledgable than I can decide. The title is clearly incorrect, but, per the book coverage linked above by E.M.Gregory, this is a day and series of events that has had plenty of coverage in history books. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 21:45, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
- Delete or Change title and Merge with 1936-39 Arab revolt in Palestine: There is already an article about 1936-39 Arab revolt in Palestine. The current version of the Jaffa disorder says nothing about the wider conflict, for easily understandable reasons: if it went into the wider conflict in detail, it would overlap significantly with the other article. The event is only notable as one of the earliest riots which spread to the whole of Palestine, and thus should properly be dealt with in the other article. It is also impossible to understand the rioting without the conflict with the British, especially the killing of al-Qassam, the larger events before and after the killing, for instance the immigration of Jews into Palestine, the conflict with the British, the formation of Higher Arab Committee who called a general strike on the issue of Jewish immigration just after the riots (which led to further violence against Jewish property and persons) and so on. Many sources are primary instead of secondary, like the Palestine Post.
This article is simply a WP:POVFORK, which is EMG's stock-in-trade on WP - he has also created 1936 Anabta shooting (permalink) with a similar rationale. The other page is also a travesty, providing virtually no historical context - it seems that all Arabs want is to kill Jews. Obviously, EMG didn't deem it necessary to create a page for the two Arabs killed in reprisal for the 1936 Anabta incident, which directly led to this event: see [3]
Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 00:02, 25 August 2016 (UTC)On the night of 15 April 1936, three Jews were ambushed and killed by Arabs on the road between Tul-Karem and Nablus. On the following night, two Arabs were killed in reprisal by members of a Jewish organization called National Defence - mother organization of Etzel - near the Jewish town of Petah-Tikva. These murders led to disorders in Jaffa and Tel Aviv on 19 April 1936.
. To clarify, I am not calling for the creation of an article for the Jewish reprisal against Arabs, just pointing out the silliness of creating such pages.
- I'll elaborate on one major point in my analysis. I claimed above that
The event is only notable as one of the earliest riots which spread to the whole of Palestine, and thus should properly be dealt with in the other article.
A simple glance at the "book sources" referenced in the article proves this point.
- I'll elaborate on one major point in my analysis. I claimed above that
- For instance, one reference (#2) cited is this. The entirety of any reference to this incident is a single sentence in a paragraph leading to the wider revolt.
Text of reference |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
On 15 April 1936, armed Arabs apparently acolytes of Izz al-Din al-Qassam of Haifa, murdered two Jews on a road near Tulkarem. In response, members of the Haganah Bet, a militant Jewish group that had broken from the Haganah, murdered two Arabs near Petah Tikva. During the funeral, Arabs in Jaffa attacked Jews and murdered nine of them. So began the great Arab rebellion. For Palestine's Arabs, the military option passed from theory to practice. |
- Here is a paper on JSTOR also cited (#10). The entirety of reference to this incident is a single sentence leading to the wider revolt.
Text of reference |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
On 19 April 1936, Arab riots broke out in Jaffa. A curfew was imposed on the area and emergency regulations brought into force. The following day... |
- I'm willing to bet that the vast majority, if not all of secondary sources deal with this incident in just this manner. It is not a coincidence that most of the details in the article rely on primary sources like the Palestine Post and The Nation both published in 1936. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 03:13, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Merge with 1936-39 Arab revolt in Palestine. Kingsindian's analysis is very good and I concur. Zerotalk 00:22, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Keep - A number of WP:RS refer to the Bloody Day in Jaffa, including The Nation on its June 3 1936 issue. Entire Wikipedia articles have been written on less (and this one is additionally backed by references to 2 books and at least 2 scholarly journals). I see nothing wrong with this article, which, being young, will probably be developed in future, but since when is Wikipedia in the business of deleting young articles before a chance is given to develop them? Now, some people say "merge," but then, once merged, others may fairly complain that this one event's section on a long series of events is oversize respect to the entirety of the 1936-39 Arab revolt article, and then, well, we'd be back to square one. Kingsidian's comments and Zero's are nothing but ad hominem's on EMG's; they seem to not like the Wikipedia articles EMG apparently chooses to edit (his "stock in trade", they say). I say, judge this Bloody Day article by its merits, and not by EMG's other articles. Cheerio, XavierItzm (talk) 01:13, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 02:44, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Keep. One of the comments for deletion said, "The event is only notable as one of the earliest riots which spread to the whole of Palestine, " ; that's looking at it upside down. The event is notable because it is one of the earliest riots which spread to the whole of Palestine. It's like saying a battle is notable only because it is one of the events in a war, and therefore should be covered only in the article on the war. Significant events get separate articles. DGG ( talk ) 04:49, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- @DGG: No, the battle analogy isn't apt. The question is: where is the evidence that this event is significant by itself? If you look at my analysis of the secondary sources, the Jaffa riots get no more than a single sentence in two of the cited secondary sources which I looked at: I am pretty sure the pattern generalizes to other sources if I bothered to check. The origins of the Arab revolt were complex: the section 1936–39 Arab revolt in Palestine#Origins gives a fair summary. Is one supposed to make a separate page for all the people killed on all sides of the conflict, or is it better to discuss all of them together in the proper context? Just read the 1936 Anabta shooting article and compare it to the section of the main article. The former is a travesty of history - there's no mention of the conflict with the British, a very brief mention of the killing of al-Qassam, no mention of the protests over Jewish immigration, no mention of the reprisal killing of two Arabs by the Haganah Bet at Petah Tikva. It is no accident that out of the events in chronological order A, B and C, EMG created articles on A and C, but not B. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 09:43, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Keep without going into politics and POVs discussion, from pure technical point of view the sources look legit, the event itself have a broad coverage, so it perfectly pass staying. Arthistorian1977 (talk) 11:08, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Note that poet Haim Gouri wrote of "the bloody day that came in Jaffa on April 19, 1936." a search of bloody day + Jaffa + 1936 shows that the term bloody day is applied to this event.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:59, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- See my comments here. The source is simply describing April 19, 1936 as "a bloody day in Jaffa" not "the bloody day in Jaffa". Also note the lack of capitalization. There's no indication that this is some kind of name. I found no secondary source calling this day by this name. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 01:20, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Here's a recent (2015) article published in major Israeli media (which includes the third largest weekend-circulation in that country) where the author specifically refers to the events of April 19-20, 1926, as, and I quote, «‘The Bloody Day in Jaffa’». XavierItzm (talk) 06:59, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- See my comments here. The source is simply describing April 19, 1936 as "a bloody day in Jaffa" not "the bloody day in Jaffa". Also note the lack of capitalization. There's no indication that this is some kind of name. I found no secondary source calling this day by this name. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 01:20, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Delete This will be kept, of course, though it is incompetent trash, as one has come to expect from the editor's work in this area, which is essentially designed to make a Yad Vashem sector to the I/P conflict and seed in a victim mentality, and insinuate Arabs are terrorists. The technique is to select an incident where Jews have died by Palestinian violence, keep it decontextualized, repress the historical contexts, all on the basis of a couple of scrappy second rate sources. As an indication of what you must do if you want to contribute at a minimal basic level to article creation of this type, I wrote up for 2 hours a response to this crap, to show how it can be done, if that's one's obsessive interest. So, compare Black Sunday, 1937. Perhaps 1% of the automatic approvers for this rubbish will rethink their position, but I doubt it. Nishidani (talk) 12:56, 26 August 2016 (UTC)