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*'''Keep''' Clearly sourced, cited and significant roles are present on his page, I don't know if this was added after this discussion, but it seems to me that the original premise of the afd is moot. [[User:Hyperwave11|Hyperwave11]] ([[User talk:Hyperwave11|talk]]) 11:14, 16 November 2021 (UTC) |
*'''Keep''' Clearly sourced, cited and significant roles are present on his page, I don't know if this was added after this discussion, but it seems to me that the original premise of the afd is moot. [[User:Hyperwave11|Hyperwave11]] ([[User talk:Hyperwave11|talk]]) 11:14, 16 November 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Weak delete''' The article was denied at AfC for lacking notability and the creator's repeated insistence upon submitting it without proper improvement. I've worked on this article, and much as I'd want to vote keep I feel like Hogan's marginal notability is just too little at the time being. Of the three strongest claims to "significant roles", the only one that would really convince me is [[Terror! Robespierre and the French Revolution]]. His role in [[Starship Troopers 3: Marauder]] is not a "lead role" as the creator or the article claims, but rather a bit part that gets few hits on Google, and the other strong claim, [[Kingdom of Dust: Beheading of Adam Smith]], is currently at AfD. Also, the DublinLive article to me is a bit weak for contributing to notability as it's largely Hogan talking about his experience on set [[User:CiphriusKane|CiphriusKane]] ([[User talk:CiphriusKane|talk]]) 16:48, 16 November 2021 (UTC) |
*<s>'''Weak delete''' The article was denied at AfC for lacking notability and the creator's repeated insistence upon submitting it without proper improvement. I've worked on this article, and much as I'd want to vote keep I feel like Hogan's marginal notability is just too little at the time being. Of the three strongest claims to "significant roles", the only one that would really convince me is [[Terror! Robespierre and the French Revolution]]. His role in [[Starship Troopers 3: Marauder]] is not a "lead role" as the creator or the article claims, but rather a bit part that gets few hits on Google, and the other strong claim, [[Kingdom of Dust: Beheading of Adam Smith]], is currently at AfD. Also, the DublinLive article to me is a bit weak for contributing to notability as it's largely Hogan talking about his experience on set [[User:CiphriusKane|CiphriusKane]] ([[User talk:CiphriusKane|talk]]) 16:48, 16 November 2021 (UTC)</s> |
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::A "lead role" does not require you to be a production's main star. Hogan was the 4th named in the credits in ''[[Sardar Udham]]'', and 3rd in ''[[Starship Troopers 3: Marauder]]''. In ''[[Dracula: The Dark Prince]]'' he was listed 6th, but he played a [[Renfield|bluelinked character]] that is ''usually'' a somewhat important role in Dracula films, and is one of the four roles mentioned [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Dracula_FAQ/TZDqCgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Stephen+Hogan+actor&pg=PT29&printsec=frontcover here]. He played [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Dracula_FAQ/TZDqCgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Stephen+Hogan+actor&pg=PT29&printsec=frontcover Algernon Moncrieff] (the second lead, I think) in ''[[The Importance of Being Earnest]]'' at the [[Abbey Theatre]] ("One of [Ireland's] leading cultural institutions"). That's in addition to his other roles which are smaller but there are a whole lot of them: recurring character (4 episodes) in ''[[Red Election]]'', recurring role (6 episodes) in ''[[Kat & Alfie: Redwater]]'', recurring roles (none more than a few episodes) in ''The Tudors'' and ''Injustice'' and ''Chosen'' and ''High Road''. He also had other film roles and roles at top theatres but I don't know how big they were. [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 03:18, 17 November 2021 (UTC) |
::A "lead role" does not require you to be a production's main star. Hogan was the 4th named in the credits in ''[[Sardar Udham]]'', and 3rd in ''[[Starship Troopers 3: Marauder]]''. In ''[[Dracula: The Dark Prince]]'' he was listed 6th, but he played a [[Renfield|bluelinked character]] that is ''usually'' a somewhat important role in Dracula films, and is one of the four roles mentioned [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Dracula_FAQ/TZDqCgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Stephen+Hogan+actor&pg=PT29&printsec=frontcover here]. He played [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Dracula_FAQ/TZDqCgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Stephen+Hogan+actor&pg=PT29&printsec=frontcover Algernon Moncrieff] (the second lead, I think) in ''[[The Importance of Being Earnest]]'' at the [[Abbey Theatre]] ("One of [Ireland's] leading cultural institutions"). That's in addition to his other roles which are smaller but there are a whole lot of them: recurring character (4 episodes) in ''[[Red Election]]'', recurring role (6 episodes) in ''[[Kat & Alfie: Redwater]]'', recurring roles (none more than a few episodes) in ''The Tudors'' and ''Injustice'' and ''Chosen'' and ''High Road''. He also had other film roles and roles at top theatres but I don't know how big they were. [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 03:18, 17 November 2021 (UTC) |
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::Fuck it, I'm out. [[User:Supermann|Supermann]] is once again bludgeoning and casting aspersions and attacks against me [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Stephen_Hogan&diff=1055780382&oldid=1055777038 here], and I've had enough [[User:CiphriusKane|CiphriusKane]] ([[User talk:CiphriusKane|talk]]) 09:17, 18 November 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Malformed nomination, let's start over'''. The actual argument, apparently, to delete the article is that the article creator and main defender, [[User:Supermann]], was paid for that. This hasn't been brought up here but was an important [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2021_November_6&oldid=1055235161 point at the deletion review]. It's being argued now at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Supermann the Conflict of Interest board]. Apparently there's a lot of history around this. I don't know what the truth is here, but I do know we can't have fruitful discussions when the stated and actual reasons for the nom don't match. A nomination of "Marginal article, maybe acceptable on the merits, but looks to be quite possibly a work done for hire, so delete per [[WP:DENY]]" would have been a proper nom. We can't work blindfolded here. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Herostratus|contribs]]) 02:38, 17 November 2021 (UTC)</span> |
*'''Malformed nomination, let's start over'''. The actual argument, apparently, to delete the article is that the article creator and main defender, [[User:Supermann]], was paid for that. This hasn't been brought up here but was an important [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2021_November_6&oldid=1055235161 point at the deletion review]. It's being argued now at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Supermann the Conflict of Interest board]. Apparently there's a lot of history around this. I don't know what the truth is here, but I do know we can't have fruitful discussions when the stated and actual reasons for the nom don't match. A nomination of "Marginal article, maybe acceptable on the merits, but looks to be quite possibly a work done for hire, so delete per [[WP:DENY]]" would have been a proper nom. We can't work blindfolded here. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Herostratus|contribs]]) 02:38, 17 November 2021 (UTC)</span> |
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::::::While it was appropriate, imo, to contact an editor previously involved with the article, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Girth_Summit&diff=1055753124&oldid=1055676637 the tone of this notification] is completely inappropriate per [[WP:CANVASS]]: {{tq|It's a wall of texts that I think you may not want to read, esp those questioning your wisdom of citing the Times article on his audiobook narrator contributions. So people are chiming in again at the AfD. Your weak keep might just help swing it into survival.}} ~Cheers, [[User:TenTonParasol|<span style="color:DarkGreen;">Ten</span>]][[User talk:TenTonParasol|<span style="color:MediumSeaGreen;">Ton</span>]][[Special:Contributions/TenTonParasol|<span style="color:LightGreen;">Parasol</span>]] 20:12, 17 November 2021 (UTC) |
::::::While it was appropriate, imo, to contact an editor previously involved with the article, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Girth_Summit&diff=1055753124&oldid=1055676637 the tone of this notification] is completely inappropriate per [[WP:CANVASS]]: {{tq|It's a wall of texts that I think you may not want to read, esp those questioning your wisdom of citing the Times article on his audiobook narrator contributions. So people are chiming in again at the AfD. Your weak keep might just help swing it into survival.}} ~Cheers, [[User:TenTonParasol|<span style="color:DarkGreen;">Ten</span>]][[User talk:TenTonParasol|<span style="color:MediumSeaGreen;">Ton</span>]][[Special:Contributions/TenTonParasol|<span style="color:LightGreen;">Parasol</span>]] 20:12, 17 November 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::It's "weak" and "might." It's like "[[Life is like a box of chocolates]]." One never knows what they is gonna get. Like in the case of asking CiphriusKane to chime in. [[User:Supermann|Supermann]] ([[User talk:Supermann|talk]]) 05:02, 18 November 2021 (UTC) |
:::::::It's "weak" and "might." It's like "[[Life is like a box of chocolates]]." One never knows what they is gonna get. Like in the case of asking CiphriusKane to chime in. [[User:Supermann|Supermann]] ([[User talk:Supermann|talk]]) 05:02, 18 November 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::{{u|Supermann}} There is a world of difference between asking somebody to contribute and telling them how to vote. Adding in weasel words does not make it okay. And please provide evidence of the accusations you are making against me or I will redact them again. Enough is enough [[User:CiphriusKane|CiphriusKane]] ([[User talk:CiphriusKane|talk]]) 09:17, 18 November 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' per nom and Softlavender. Coverage not in-depth. Fails GNG and NACTOR. <s>Keep per Herostratus' reply below regarding depth of coverage.</s><small> /I am but a reed swayed by the wind/</small> [[User:Alalch Emis|— Alalch Emis]] ([[User talk:Alalch Emis|talk]]) 10:06, 17 November 2021 (UTC) |
*'''Delete''' per nom and Softlavender. Coverage not in-depth. Fails GNG and NACTOR. <s>Keep per Herostratus' reply below regarding depth of coverage.</s><small> /I am but a reed swayed by the wind/</small> [[User:Alalch Emis|— Alalch Emis]] ([[User talk:Alalch Emis|talk]]) 10:06, 17 November 2021 (UTC) |
Revision as of 09:17, 18 November 2021
Stephen Hogan
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- Stephen Hogan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Does not appear to have had any really major roles; a lot of minor ones--mostly as figures in minor documentaries-- doesn't make for a notable actor. I don't see that any of the references discusses him in a substantial way--they're reviews of the minor films which, naturally mention him . DGG ( talk ) 02:31, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 02:50, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 02:51, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 02:51, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Hi. You have already met me in person here in NYC, so you know I can't be him in an Asian skin. So the "closely connected" accusation is FALSE to begin with. Happy to meet you again per Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC - Wikipedia. I submit to you that maybe he wasn't written extensively like other Irish actors such as Liam Neeson, Colin Farrell, Pierce Brosnan, etc. Maybe he was shy or hasn't attracted the attention. I don't know because I don't know the guy. But his long list of works speak to his Wikipedia:Notability (people) - Wikipedia regarding the two requirement laid down. This has been argued extensively on the talk page and on my talk page if not else where. There are sock puppets who have intentionally made disruptive editing that have been caught and blocked. Respectfully, I hope we could dedicate our time and energy on something more meaningful instead of this. Plus, correction on facts. He was never in any documentary film. Thanks for your time and consideration. Supermann (talk) 12:03, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
- Delete a non-notable actor with minor roles. Fails WP:NACTOR as well general notable guidelines. Supermann did Hogan has played any lead role? If yes, please specify which one as I failed to find any significant role at the moment. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 14:04, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- It's right there in the article/filmography. Two film roles: Hogan played Sky Marshall Omar Anoke in science-fiction film Starship Troopers 3: Marauder...He played the lead role of Adam Smith in Iraq war drama Kingdom of Dust: The Beheading of Adam Smith. And then three lead roles in theaters: Mad as Hell (2018), Possible Worlds (2002), 1999 (Fast Food). You are not even reading the guidelines correctly. As I had said before, if you have difficulties accessing the world class libraries electronically, I am happy to upload the printout so that everybody can verify the theater roles are lead roles. But more importantly, you should just watch the movies that are widely accessible. I see you can speak Hindi. Have you seen his performance in Sardar Udham? I am not saying that is a lead role, but once you compare the aforementioned two with his role in Sardar, you can tell what a lead role is. Thanks. Supermann (talk) 14:28, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Making claims do not verify his roles. It needs reliable sources to support the claims. As I can see, the subject has played zero lead roles. The guidelines are very simple.
WP:NACTOR: 1. Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions;
or
2 Has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment.
TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 14:37, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- With all due respect, I don't know whether you can't count or I can't. Multiple is defined by many dictionary out there as "consisting of, including, or involving more than 1." For example, Multiple | Definition of Multiple by Merriam-Webster. Here he has 5. What I do know is you and I have ZERO. His long list of filmography shows he is prolific. You can say it's not unique/innovative, but the guideline is simple. It's either or. Thanks. Supermann (talk) 19:06, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Which source(s) indicate his lead roles? Please provide here so that we can better understand your sources. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 17:43, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Before we get bogged down in lead role, let's recall the guideline doesn't even use the term. The guideline instead uses "significant roles." So I am not gonna go down this rabbit hole, when the answers you seek are on the filmography by ctrl+f finding "lead role" - an imprecise term used by others. You at least should see those two aforementioned movies that are widely accessible. Supermann (talk) 19:06, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Please assume good faith. You are requested to provide sources here that indicates "significant roles" of the subject than making false claims regarding a WP:COI page. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 08:54, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Off-topic but you could be more respectful to @TheBirdsShedTears:, your comments are a little passive aggressive. deity 10:04, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- People with true good faith would not come on Wikipedia after 20+ days and start commenting on deletion. I have never done so in my 15 years here, because I hope to inform readers. You are not a Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry, are you? One notorious editor who touched on this topic has been caught. They are User:Dollyplay and User:Sleptlapps and User:Nyxaros2. I hope you are not one of them. Supermann (talk) 13:53, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well I was reading on Starship Troopers and went down a rabbit hole and it led me here. Just trying to help out man no need to get aggressive deity 14:19, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well, I hope you at least find time to watch the pentalogy of the Starship Troopers (franchise) before embarking on a deletionist path. Then I will truly believe you have good faith and are informed. Have a good weekend. Supermann (talk) 15:06, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- All the films after the first were pretty awful deity 01:01, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- In that case, why don't you become a writer/director and reboot the entire franchise? It's not like you could otherwise time travel and delete 2/3/4/5 from history. And cancelling Stephen Hogan would gratify you and make you feel less awful?? His rendition of the theme song in 3 has brought the militarism in 1 to an all time high level. For that reason, I want readers not to be deprived of the opportunities to read about the actor on wikipedia. We agree to disagree. Supermann (talk) 05:15, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well the article can't really be improved further. That's not "cancelling" it's literally Wikipedia guidelines deity 06:13, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- In that case, why don't you become a writer/director and reboot the entire franchise? It's not like you could otherwise time travel and delete 2/3/4/5 from history. And cancelling Stephen Hogan would gratify you and make you feel less awful?? His rendition of the theme song in 3 has brought the militarism in 1 to an all time high level. For that reason, I want readers not to be deprived of the opportunities to read about the actor on wikipedia. We agree to disagree. Supermann (talk) 05:15, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- All the films after the first were pretty awful deity 01:01, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well, I hope you at least find time to watch the pentalogy of the Starship Troopers (franchise) before embarking on a deletionist path. Then I will truly believe you have good faith and are informed. Have a good weekend. Supermann (talk) 15:06, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well I was reading on Starship Troopers and went down a rabbit hole and it led me here. Just trying to help out man no need to get aggressive deity 14:19, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- People with true good faith would not come on Wikipedia after 20+ days and start commenting on deletion. I have never done so in my 15 years here, because I hope to inform readers. You are not a Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry, are you? One notorious editor who touched on this topic has been caught. They are User:Dollyplay and User:Sleptlapps and User:Nyxaros2. I hope you are not one of them. Supermann (talk) 13:53, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Before we get bogged down in lead role, let's recall the guideline doesn't even use the term. The guideline instead uses "significant roles." So I am not gonna go down this rabbit hole, when the answers you seek are on the filmography by ctrl+f finding "lead role" - an imprecise term used by others. You at least should see those two aforementioned movies that are widely accessible. Supermann (talk) 19:06, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Which source(s) indicate his lead roles? Please provide here so that we can better understand your sources. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 17:43, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisted per Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2021 November 6.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 10:53, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Clearly sourced, cited and significant roles are present on his page, I don't know if this was added after this discussion, but it seems to me that the original premise of the afd is moot. Hyperwave11 (talk) 11:14, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
Weak delete The article was denied at AfC for lacking notability and the creator's repeated insistence upon submitting it without proper improvement. I've worked on this article, and much as I'd want to vote keep I feel like Hogan's marginal notability is just too little at the time being. Of the three strongest claims to "significant roles", the only one that would really convince me is Terror! Robespierre and the French Revolution. His role in Starship Troopers 3: Marauder is not a "lead role" as the creator or the article claims, but rather a bit part that gets few hits on Google, and the other strong claim, Kingdom of Dust: Beheading of Adam Smith, is currently at AfD. Also, the DublinLive article to me is a bit weak for contributing to notability as it's largely Hogan talking about his experience on set CiphriusKane (talk) 16:48, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- A "lead role" does not require you to be a production's main star. Hogan was the 4th named in the credits in Sardar Udham, and 3rd in Starship Troopers 3: Marauder. In Dracula: The Dark Prince he was listed 6th, but he played a bluelinked character that is usually a somewhat important role in Dracula films, and is one of the four roles mentioned here. He played Algernon Moncrieff (the second lead, I think) in The Importance of Being Earnest at the Abbey Theatre ("One of [Ireland's] leading cultural institutions"). That's in addition to his other roles which are smaller but there are a whole lot of them: recurring character (4 episodes) in Red Election, recurring role (6 episodes) in Kat & Alfie: Redwater, recurring roles (none more than a few episodes) in The Tudors and Injustice and Chosen and High Road. He also had other film roles and roles at top theatres but I don't know how big they were. Herostratus (talk) 03:18, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Fuck it, I'm out. Supermann is once again bludgeoning and casting aspersions and attacks against me here, and I've had enough CiphriusKane (talk) 09:17, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- Malformed nomination, let's start over. The actual argument, apparently, to delete the article is that the article creator and main defender, User:Supermann, was paid for that. This hasn't been brought up here but was an important point at the deletion review. It's being argued now at the Conflict of Interest board. Apparently there's a lot of history around this. I don't know what the truth is here, but I do know we can't have fruitful discussions when the stated and actual reasons for the nom don't match. A nomination of "Marginal article, maybe acceptable on the merits, but looks to be quite possibly a work done for hire, so delete per WP:DENY" would have been a proper nom. We can't work blindfolded here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Herostratus (talk • contribs) 02:38, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- I dunno. Maybe the deal is something like "We senior editors know what's what here but we can't prove it, so just go about your business and let us work" but in that case just give us the real reasons so we can discuss them, or else do an administrative delete on the article or whatever and stop wasting our time.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Herostratus (talk • contribs) 02:38, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- There is nothing "malformed" about the nomination. [1]. The nomination is and was perfectly formed and structured, and about as neutral as you can get. There is absolutely no reason to "start over" when an AFD, filed by a longterm respected administrator and former ArbCom member, is neutral and concise, and perfectly posted. (This message/clarification is for the closing admin.) Softlavender (talk) 01:47, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- "filed by a longterm respected administrator and former ArbCom member". The Wikipedia is not a respecter of persons, regarding edits. A non-excellent edit is a non-excellent edit. Would you prefer a different paradigm? To make it clearer since you insist, the nom was neutral and concise but also misleading and one could say spurious if so inclined. I'm confident this wasn't deliberate, but intent doesn't matter here. More background here. Herostratus (talk) 05:44, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- Nothing whatsoever spurious about the nomination. And the link you just posted shows it. Casting clearly unwarranted aspersions on the filer merely seems to reveal how much you are willing to WP:BLUDGEON this discussion along with Supermann, as has already been noted by Djm-leighpark, BusterD, and myself. Softlavender (talk) 05:56, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- I can't really respond on the merits since you choose to try to make this a behavioral issue... I would be harrassingly bludgeoning you if I did that I guess, and I don't think we want to go down that path. So whatever. I will say that I don't like that you are maintaining that providing a diff with a simple intro of "More background" is casting aspersions. Sounds like "how dare you libel someone by showing what they said" rubric which... I'm not super on board with.
- Nothing whatsoever spurious about the nomination. And the link you just posted shows it. Casting clearly unwarranted aspersions on the filer merely seems to reveal how much you are willing to WP:BLUDGEON this discussion along with Supermann, as has already been noted by Djm-leighpark, BusterD, and myself. Softlavender (talk) 05:56, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- "filed by a longterm respected administrator and former ArbCom member". The Wikipedia is not a respecter of persons, regarding edits. A non-excellent edit is a non-excellent edit. Would you prefer a different paradigm? To make it clearer since you insist, the nom was neutral and concise but also misleading and one could say spurious if so inclined. I'm confident this wasn't deliberate, but intent doesn't matter here. More background here. Herostratus (talk) 05:44, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- So... even tho I prefer to speak colleague-to-colleague and not be SHOUTED AT IN ALL CAPS, fine, OK, WP:BLUDGEON. Which a few editors are bringing up with regularity, so lets look at it, beyond the title... so, it's somebody's opinion (which they are entitled to), it's long and I don't know which parts of it you mean. And (while many parts are reasonable) I plain don't agree with good parts of it, and it looks to be quite wrong-headed in places: "The [bad, bludgeoning] person attempts to pick apart each argument with the goal of getting each person to change their '!vote'"... I mean what the gosh darn heck do you think we're supposed to doing here? Coming in with set opinions at the get-go and just shouting at each other? I get that this is common enough, but is this now supposed to be a virtue? Great Caesar's ghost. Herostratus (talk) 06:55, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- Calling a neutrally worded nomination by an experienced editor, who has historically tried to help the article-creator, of a borderline article "spurious" is casting aspersions. Posting 1,481 bytes of blather just now is yet more WP:BLUDGEONING, which has further served to make this AFD into a trainwreck. Softlavender (talk) 07:12, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- Well truth is a defense, but OK. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree over what AfD is basically for, I guess. Herostratus (talk) 07:26, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- Calling a neutrally worded nomination by an experienced editor, who has historically tried to help the article-creator, of a borderline article "spurious" is casting aspersions. Posting 1,481 bytes of blather just now is yet more WP:BLUDGEONING, which has further served to make this AFD into a trainwreck. Softlavender (talk) 07:12, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- So... even tho I prefer to speak colleague-to-colleague and not be SHOUTED AT IN ALL CAPS, fine, OK, WP:BLUDGEON. Which a few editors are bringing up with regularity, so lets look at it, beyond the title... so, it's somebody's opinion (which they are entitled to), it's long and I don't know which parts of it you mean. And (while many parts are reasonable) I plain don't agree with good parts of it, and it looks to be quite wrong-headed in places: "The [bad, bludgeoning] person attempts to pick apart each argument with the goal of getting each person to change their '!vote'"... I mean what the gosh darn heck do you think we're supposed to doing here? Coming in with set opinions at the get-go and just shouting at each other? I get that this is common enough, but is this now supposed to be a virtue? Great Caesar's ghost. Herostratus (talk) 06:55, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- One error I already pointed out above is Hogan was never in any "minor documentaries." I do respect DGG, but if anyone doesn't have the courage to admit mistakes, then something is off. As he points out in his "my approach to admin functions," "Nobody should take anyone's advice as Gospel; I give the best I can, but I've been sometimes wrong." Hopefully I am not taking his words out of context. Thanks. Supermann (talk) 04:18, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- That doesn't make the nomination "malformed". It means that DGG mistook a minor non-notable film recreating real events as a documentary. It also doesn't mean DGG "doesn't have the courage to admit mistakes". No one as far as I can see has requested on his usertalk page that he change this. Softlavender (talk) 04:29, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- One error I already pointed out above is Hogan was never in any "minor documentaries." I do respect DGG, but if anyone doesn't have the courage to admit mistakes, then something is off. As he points out in his "my approach to admin functions," "Nobody should take anyone's advice as Gospel; I give the best I can, but I've been sometimes wrong." Hopefully I am not taking his words out of context. Thanks. Supermann (talk) 04:18, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep of course, on the merits of the article alone, if WP:DENY is not in play. First of all (as deeper looking has found), the guy easily meets the WP:GNG, with:
- 1) A full-size paragraph reviewing his acting in a film.
The publication, Blueprintreview may not be super big but it has a decent article here.EDIT: I have no idea what that publication is; it's opinion, so reliability is not a factor. Notability would be tho, and I think that this source isn't useful for GNG purposes and should be ignored (its still usable in the article).
- 1) A full-size paragraph reviewing his acting in a film.
- 2) This is a full long interview in Dublin Live, which looks like a legit mag (willing to be instructed otherwise) about popular culture stuff. It is a Mirror property and the Mirror is a tabloid, so that could be discussed. (The interview is about a film Hogan is in, not about him in the sense of the names of his dogs etc, altho you do have bits like "I'm a bit of a history freak" etc.)
- 3) There is an article in The Times (the London Times) which has several paragraphs just on Hogan, an editor has averred (I can't access it cos paywall).
- Leaving aside the GNG, the guy is "notable" in the real world sense, in that he's had a long career, played a couple of title roles, played major roles (in the sense of being one of the 3-4-5 top players) in some other productions (which satisfied WP:NACTOR, including stage, and filled out his CV with many recurring roles on TV and film roles. Bottom line: I bet that we have never deleted an article on an actor with a CV like this (and that's just his film and TV credits, he has also had an extensive career at top British theaters). If so, rarely, and we probably shouldn't have. Herostratus (talk) 02:38, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- As a comment, the Blueprintreview website is not the same as the literary magazine with a Wikipedia article. Also, as brought up at another AfD also commenting that review, it does not meet the threshold of reliability as required of reviews establishing notability at WP:NFSOURCES due to the fact that it is impossible to establish the reliability of their publishing process by the fact that we cannot determine an editorial board or process. Generally, I don't have an opinion on the other sources or whether this article should be kept or deleted, but that specific source is not an adequate review nor is it the same as the literary mag. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 02:50, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Huh, you're right, sorry. As to the passage, it is opinion, so reliability doesn't enter into it, as we assume that critics are truthfully writing what they think. What matters here is notability: is blueprintreview and/or the article author (Justin Richards) notable enough for their opinion to be worthwhile? I don't know. Here is the author's (Justin Richards) work there, he's apparently done some legit film work. It's... slim. He's never published an article in a real magazine that I can find. He has reviewed a number of films, so he's not my Uncle Dwight, and blueprintreview has a stable of (amateur?) reviewers, so it's not some guy's blog... but still... for notability purposes I'd tend to not want to include that, thanks for pointing that out. Herostratus (talk) 03:56, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks. Are you for deleting that literary magazine with a wikipedia article that doesn't cite any sources then? not to mention RS. I just hope we are doing things consistently across the board, instead of me being told WP:OTHERSTUFF again and again. Supermann (talk) 03:00, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion#Nominating_article(s) for deletion Here's the guide for starting an AfD CiphriusKane (talk) 05:07, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- If nobody deletes my contributions, I won't do so to others. That's how I roll and treat others. Knowledge is power. Information is power. More knowledge is good knowledge. It's at least a start. I can choose to discount that knowledge to bad knowledge. Thanks. Supermann (talk) 04:20, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion#Nominating_article(s) for deletion Here's the guide for starting an AfD CiphriusKane (talk) 05:07, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks @Herostratus: for your continuous support. Having anticipated your paywall access issues, as the creator of the article, I had solicited help from the community and they have graciously helped! Pls see discussion at Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2021_August_10 and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Resource_Request/Archive_112 and the archived URL at Actors make their voices heard for audiobooks | Ireland | The Sunday Times (archive.md). It's actually in the article's reference section. As for the prior 2017 incident, I categorically deny again and again that Bliss Media has paid me to edit on Wikipedia to promote them. They are not interested in having a presence here. In fact, I haven't touched Bliss Media or the Thomas Price (actor) pages for sooooooooooooooo many days now. When one loses interest on some things, that's what happened. Maybe one day I will stop caring about this Stephen Hogan page too. Truth will come out. Supermann (talk) 03:16, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- With all due respect, User:Supermann, a lot of people don't seem to believe you and there's no way to prove it either way, but maybe they're right; you do have a past, and apparently your involvement is seen by some as annoying filibustering, so you might want to just back off and let other editors have their say. Herostratus (talk) 03:51, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- As a comment, the Blueprintreview website is not the same as the literary magazine with a Wikipedia article. Also, as brought up at another AfD also commenting that review, it does not meet the threshold of reliability as required of reviews establishing notability at WP:NFSOURCES due to the fact that it is impossible to establish the reliability of their publishing process by the fact that we cannot determine an editorial board or process. Generally, I don't have an opinion on the other sources or whether this article should be kept or deleted, but that specific source is not an adequate review nor is it the same as the literary mag. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 02:50, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Comment: The closer of the DRV specially mentioned issues with WP:BLUDGEON, and quite frankly Supermann & Herostratus that seems to be about what you are trying to do here. There enough AfD related drama at ANI already recently but I'm on the cusp of bring you people there. |Herostratus, at a rough glance you look like you unintentionly double !voted so I'd suggest changing that to a comment. There's a discussion at at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Supermann if there's a need to discuss issues with concerns of any COI/UPE by Supermann but I'd strongly suggest an AGF of innocent until guilty approach until evidenced there. To state the obvious I am spending time at this to look for a simple clear best WP:THREE argument for a keep. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 03:59, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Hey, don't threaten people with ANI. Either open a case or keep quiet. ANI is not for waving around to frighten other editors with empty threats. That's just really insulting and inflammatory. It's not a good way to move discussions like this forward in a calm manner, I don't think.
- I didn't double vote by accident. A pointed out that (in my opinion) the nom is malformed and we need to start over with the "This article was created under corrupt circumstances" front and center as a key point in the nomination. That's not a vote on the disposition of the article. Then, if we don't start over (which, probably not), on the merits of the article alone my vote is to keep it.
- As to the rest, do you have any thoughts on the article itself? That's what we're supposed to be hare about. Herostratus (talk) 06:40, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Hut 8.5 took us down a WP:GNG rabbit hole that is so deep that nobody seems to be able to get out of. But I just realized essay WP:GNGACTOR. So hopefully, we are toe to toe with this other essay: WP:THREE. To entertain that request for 3 RS anyways:
- 1) In the 2018 Mad as Hell, directed by Cassie McFarlane, Hogan played the significant role of Peter Finch/Howard Beale at Jermyn Street Theatre.[1] This is listed in the Theatrical filmography section that CiphriusKane liked me to expand on earlier, but now has totally disavowed in his latest argument. The archived URL works. The author wrote, "It's a tall order to play a man as familiar and charismatic as Finch, but Stephen Hogan – the BBC Redwater star – makes a good fist of it. He captures Finch's outrage that people in the Hollywood community, and on the island of Jamaica, felt in a position to pontificate on how he should conduct his private life." The article featured a picture of Hogan. If this is not the treatment of a lead role, I don't know what is. Again, I haven't seen the work, but 95% here don't even bother to watch his movies that are widely available.
- 2) In the Starship Troopers 3: Marauder review, film critic Joe Leydon wrote for Variety, "Omar Anoke, the heroic sky marshal in charge of battling the big bugs, is a charismatic celebrity and chart-topping singer whose onstage movements and militaristic song list suggest Adolf Hitler as an 'American Idol' contestant."[2] Scott Lowe of IGN wrote, "the Sky Marshal's saber rattling pop single...calls to mind Lee Greenwood's "I'm Proud to Be an American.[3]. Please use "marshal" as keyword when you peruse these two sources. I can accept lumping them into just one single RS to demo his significant role as the baddie only second to the big alien bug.
- 3) Finally, his significant role as detective Swain in Sardar Udham per Dublin Live at https://www.dublinlive.ie/whats-on/dublin-actor-stars-fascinating-new-21993385, if we are really talking about true AGF of innocent until proven guilty.
- It's time to not move the goal posts every so often. I am not denying he is not as notable as some other Irish actors out there. But enough is enough with a long list of prolific contributions. WP:NACTOR must be respected. Thanks. Supermann (talk) 06:49, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ Walker, Tim (February 21, 2018). "FINCH'S ANGER MANAGEMENT COURSE; Mad as Hell". The New European. Archived from the original on 2021-07-28.
- ^ Leydon, Joe (August 13, 2008). "Starship Troopers 3 Review". Variety.
- ^ Scott Lowe (12 May 2012). "Starship Troopers 3: Marauder Blu-Ray Review - IGN". IGN.com.
- Comment: Thankyou for suggesting a top three references. As two seem to refer to the same Starship Troopers Marauder 3 role can someone consider replacing one of those with a source to a different role, possibly one for Sardar Udham perhaps? Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 09:38, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- I'd be tempted to replace the Variety one for the Times article. I genuinely have nae idea why Supermann keeps touting sources that others have questioned the notability-determining of, while ignoring an article about his audiobook narration CiphriusKane (talk) 11:51, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- If you recall, there are folks who don't like the Times article either. Let's not forget that I didn't come up with the Times article in the history of the page. Another admin did. She encouraged me to push it back to mainspace after having been put back to draft. But she hasn't re-joined any of the conversation, saying it could go either way. I will try to follow up with her and see if she is willing to join now. She is the other editor I mentioned at the top of the DRV. Thanks. Supermann (talk) 16:01, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- From what I recall there was 1 person unhappy with the article because they thought it was 4 paragraphs long. And I ken you didn't add the Times article, I did (the specific revision has been revdelled). And the admin said that there was marginal notability and there was naething stopping you from moving it. I was trying to help you here, show that Hogan had more than a bunch of passing mentions in reviews, but honestly this really isna worth my time. There's just circles upon circles, and this is just all too frustrating when my attempts to help get dismissed like this CiphriusKane (talk) 16:43, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Maybe we are from different cultures. I wasn't dismissing your citing Times article at all. I was just trying to point out the fact that there are other naysayers on that article. I appreciate your help truly and especially when you add stuff instead of destroying stuff. You can be way more helpful by watching (several of) his works, instead of spending all these time taking me to ANI, hounding/gravedigging my edits even after I have apologized how many times now? I know you are trying to assert your intellectual superiority in a form that is not really otherwise appreciated. It's your way or the high way, i.e. the blocked way. This is very smothering. If you ever come visit NYC, I wish we could go see a movie together of your choosing and I take you out for lunch. But I guess that is an offer you are not interested in, because that would be me corrupting you financially. I apologize. Supermann (talk) 19:18, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- From what I recall there was 1 person unhappy with the article because they thought it was 4 paragraphs long. And I ken you didn't add the Times article, I did (the specific revision has been revdelled). And the admin said that there was marginal notability and there was naething stopping you from moving it. I was trying to help you here, show that Hogan had more than a bunch of passing mentions in reviews, but honestly this really isna worth my time. There's just circles upon circles, and this is just all too frustrating when my attempts to help get dismissed like this CiphriusKane (talk) 16:43, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- If you recall, there are folks who don't like the Times article either. Let's not forget that I didn't come up with the Times article in the history of the page. Another admin did. She encouraged me to push it back to mainspace after having been put back to draft. But she hasn't re-joined any of the conversation, saying it could go either way. I will try to follow up with her and see if she is willing to join now. She is the other editor I mentioned at the top of the DRV. Thanks. Supermann (talk) 16:01, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- I'd be tempted to replace the Variety one for the Times article. I genuinely have nae idea why Supermann keeps touting sources that others have questioned the notability-determining of, while ignoring an article about his audiobook narration CiphriusKane (talk) 11:51, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- While it was appropriate, imo, to contact an editor previously involved with the article, the tone of this notification is completely inappropriate per WP:CANVASS:
It's a wall of texts that I think you may not want to read, esp those questioning your wisdom of citing the Times article on his audiobook narrator contributions. So people are chiming in again at the AfD. Your weak keep might just help swing it into survival.
~Cheers, TenTonParasol 20:12, 17 November 2021 (UTC)- It's "weak" and "might." It's like "Life is like a box of chocolates." One never knows what they is gonna get. Like in the case of asking CiphriusKane to chime in. Supermann (talk) 05:02, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- Supermann There is a world of difference between asking somebody to contribute and telling them how to vote. Adding in weasel words does not make it okay. And please provide evidence of the accusations you are making against me or I will redact them again. Enough is enough CiphriusKane (talk) 09:17, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- It's "weak" and "might." It's like "Life is like a box of chocolates." One never knows what they is gonna get. Like in the case of asking CiphriusKane to chime in. Supermann (talk) 05:02, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- While it was appropriate, imo, to contact an editor previously involved with the article, the tone of this notification is completely inappropriate per WP:CANVASS:
- Delete per nom and Softlavender. Coverage not in-depth. Fails GNG and NACTOR.
Keep per Herostratus' reply below regarding depth of coverage./I am but a reed swayed by the wind/ — Alalch Emis (talk) 10:06, 17 November 2021 (UTC) - Keep Sources already noted above are sufficient to pass WP:GNG. --Jayron32 12:57, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Two sources provided by Herostratus look good enough to count towards GNG. NemesisAT (talk) 13:09, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- I fail to see how any of it could be seen as in depth coverage. Could someone point me in a direction here? How could these sources be used to provide references to meaningful encyclopedic content? Say, if there's a paragraph written, but the only claims we would be verifying with that source are that X played Y role, that is a signal that the coverage is not in depth. — Alalch Emis (talk) 13:27, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Well, the rule (WP:N) is very vague on what "in depth" means -- all it says is that a passing mention in part of a sentence is not "in depth", an entire book is. In between, you're on your own. "A good meaty paragraph" is my standard, another guy's is "100 words" (WP:100W), another's might be "enough to, taken together, make a decent article, more than a stub", and so on. You'll have to develop your own opinion on that. And of course it depends on particular circumstances. But if all you can get out it is "Smith has two sisters" or "Smith was graduated from Bryn Mawr" then no, that would not be in-depth coverage.
- I fail to see how any of it could be seen as in depth coverage. Could someone point me in a direction here? How could these sources be used to provide references to meaningful encyclopedic content? Say, if there's a paragraph written, but the only claims we would be verifying with that source are that X played Y role, that is a signal that the coverage is not in depth. — Alalch Emis (talk) 13:27, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- But if an entire paragraph is written about someone and all you can get out of it is "Smith played Puck in Richard III at the Old Howard", what's in the rest of paragraph? Herostratus (talk) 17:55, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep per Herostratus. This is undoubtedly a very minor actor, but they do narrowly pass GNG. SnowFire (talk) 16:58, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Delete. Clearly promotional, advertisement article on a non-notable mainly-voice actor who does not meet WP:NACTOR, no matter how one tries to twist the evidence or bludgeon the discussion. I have an exceptionally hard time believing people are defending this article. To me it is a sign of how far Wikipedia has fallen. Seriously people, a couple of sentences about his audiobook readings in The Times and the following ridiculous paragraph on a blog (self-published) review-site equates to notability?
Stephen manages to portray an okay representation of a New York businessman well out of his comfort zone, but I have to admit I never really warmed to the man. He starts off as being quite whiney, moves along to a rather bolshie state and then finally gets overly sentimental about the Lord’s Prayer. Having said that, if that’s what the guy who it was based on was like then fair play to Hogan for staying true to the person.
- Please note carefully that interviews do not count towards notability (being non-independent). That is one of the main principles of Wikipedia and AFD. Other sources are passing mentions or not mentions at all. So we're left with no significant independent coverage in reliable sources, much less WP:NACTOR. -- Softlavender (talk) 23:14, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- "interviews do not count towards notability"... you mean if I score a five-page interview in Rolling Stone that's not a factor in whether I'm wikinotable? And that's a key principle. Herostratus (talk) 05:50, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- Comment: In my reading of this discussion and the associated DRV, I'm still surprised to find no mention of the violation of WP:Biographies of living persons policy. While we have supporting sources aplenty, we lack a single anchoring source which meets the BLP standard (independent reliable source directly detailing the subject, not merely their works). As of this datestamp, the subject's birthday is unsourced (look at the applied source and see). Do "keep" asserting editors feel any responsibility to the living human being described in this page? Without directly detailing biographic sources, this page is merely original research, a collection of works. I just thought since we've been discussing this article about an actual human for three weeks I'd introduce a policy central to all such discussions. BusterD (talk) 00:39, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- Since when is there a requirement to include a "biographical source"? You need to be enormously famous for a reliable source to even consider writing a biography about you. If this were a requirement then we would be deleting 99% of our BLP articles. Mlb96 (talk) 02:12, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- Here is the birthday proof at [redacted]. When anyone forms a company in the UK, they need to provide IDs to the govt. I know that because I am a tax accountant. And the Companies House is where we go for info that is publicly available. It's one of the corp filings at [redacted] where he [redacted, BLP assertion with no ref]. This is more reliable than just a biographer/ghostwriter writing down a birthday without really checking his ID. I don't want to grave dig my own edits. I probably didn't use the first link, because it wouldn't provide enough context of what the amazonaws.com is all about. After I probably put down the 2nd link, another editor came in to use an upper-level link. That's I think what happened. I can accept such revisions. Please feel free to prove me wrong. I am not getting hung up by his birthday anymore. Thanks. Supermann (talk) 04:32, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- With moderate to significant alarm, I ask rhetorically: is it AT ALL appropriate to include links, both here and the one used as a citation for the birth date in the article, that includes mailing addresses of the subject? ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 04:42, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- It's a 2014 address. 7 YEARS AGO. CLOSE TO 8. He has probably moved. I am not his groupie enough to show up at his door step to ask for autograph. I am not harassing him. Supermann (talk) 04:55, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- It's never appropriate to dox subjects in any way shape or form, particularly private persons, and "He has probably moved" is... not how BLP works. I redacted the links (technically should be oversighted, but not worth filing IMO), do not restore them but go to Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard if you like. (But I believe that birthdates are frequently not ref'd and I think it is de facto common practice to permit this if there's no dispute or objection.) Herostratus (talk) 05:58, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- It's a 2014 address. 7 YEARS AGO. CLOSE TO 8. He has probably moved. I am not his groupie enough to show up at his door step to ask for autograph. I am not harassing him. Supermann (talk) 04:55, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- With moderate to significant alarm, I ask rhetorically: is it AT ALL appropriate to include links, both here and the one used as a citation for the birth date in the article, that includes mailing addresses of the subject? ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 04:42, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep not only passes GNG but he's described as 'Well known' and 'known for numerous roles' which supports his real-world notability. JeffUK (talk) 02:17, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - There should come a point where a large number of roles, some of which are marginal as to whether they are major roles, should add up to at least as much as two major roles. This is the sort of case where Wikipedia winds up looking silly by deleting a biography. The subject has a long list of marginal roles that should more than add up to enough. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:59, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- Comment - I !voted to Endorse the deletion at DRV because there was no error by the closer and no claim of error by the closer (only disruption of the DRV by the appellant). But a Delete would be an error by the Wikipedia community. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:59, 18 November 2021 (UTC)