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* '''Keep''' Many innovations in Judaism begin as projects of one Jewish movement or another (the [[chavurah]] and [[Jewish renewal]], for example) and gain wider acceptance over time. The fact that Chabad is currently the chief, or exclusive, sponsor of public menorot does not diminish the notability of the subject. The article has been suitably expanded since this AfD began that it no longer seems like a POV fork. — [[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] <sup>[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]</sub> 20:11, 18 December 2009 (UTC) |
* '''Keep''' Many innovations in Judaism begin as projects of one Jewish movement or another (the [[chavurah]] and [[Jewish renewal]], for example) and gain wider acceptance over time. The fact that Chabad is currently the chief, or exclusive, sponsor of public menorot does not diminish the notability of the subject. The article has been suitably expanded since this AfD began that it no longer seems like a POV fork. — [[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] <sup>[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]</sub> 20:11, 18 December 2009 (UTC) |
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**Um, Malik, yes all menorahs are notable and not because any one group, besides ALL the Jews, use them, it's a serious rabbinic commandment of over 2000 years and specified in the Talmud and the [[Shulchan Aruch]] that makes it notable so what's the "innovation" here? The Jewish sages of 2000 years ago said that ANY menorah is a ''pirsumei nisa''/"publicization of the miracle" of Chanuka. So that if someone said go set up big ones at street corners, that's a craze not an "innovation" in Jewish law, it's ONLY a menorah. It's just a menorah placed in a public place. It would be like advocating for articles about [[Seaside menorah]] or [[Countryside menorah]] or [[Basement menorah]] etc etc -- no matter where they are placed, they are menorahs, hence this is a violation of [[WP:POVFORK]] plain and simple. [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] ([[User talk:IZAK|talk]]) 20:23, 18 December 2009 (UTC) |
**Um, Malik, yes all menorahs are notable and not because any one group, besides ALL the Jews, use them, it's a serious rabbinic commandment of over 2000 years and specified in the Talmud and the [[Shulchan Aruch]] that makes it notable so what's the "innovation" here? The Jewish sages of 2000 years ago said that ANY menorah is a ''pirsumei nisa''/"publicization of the miracle" of Chanuka. So that if someone said go set up big ones at street corners, that's a craze not an "innovation" in Jewish law, it's ONLY a menorah. It's just a menorah placed in a public place. It would be like advocating for articles about [[Seaside menorah]] or [[Countryside menorah]] or [[Basement menorah]] etc etc -- no matter where they are placed, they are menorahs, hence this is a violation of [[WP:POVFORK]] plain and simple. [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] ([[User talk:IZAK|talk]]) 20:23, 18 December 2009 (UTC) |
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***I don't want to get into an argument with you, IZAK, but if somebody started a new tradition of lighting menorot on beaches, and the subject attracted both news coverage and lawsuits, [[Seaside menorah]] would satisfy the [[WP:NOTE|notability]] guidelines and might merit an article (or a section within [[Public menorah]]). — [[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] <sup>[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]</sub> 20:30, 18 December 2009 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:30, 18 December 2009
Public menorah
- Public menorah (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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While this is a very nice thing that people do, it is not notable. It seems to be a shill for Chabad sites. The sources cited are primary sources about the topic, not about coverage the topic has garnered. If it stays at all it should me a section under Menorah_(Hanukkah) Joe407 (talk) 05:41, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- Comment I find it odd that you think it's not notable. Did you bother doing a basic Google search? Google has 28,000 hits. The concept receives massive press coverage every year, almost entirely from non Chabad sources, and keeps growing in popularity. True Chabad started this and are the main ones doing it today, but that does not make it any less notable. Shlomke (talk) 15:15, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- Shlomke, it's still only an article about a type of menorah, nothing more and nothing less with all its press coverage, and as such it is a violation of WP:POVFORKing and belongs in the main Menorah (Hanukkah) article. Chabad has taken many things and elaborated on them, but that does NOT always make the subjects worthy of new articles. Thus even though Chabad has instituted serious Public tefillin or Public Shabbat candles or Public Four Species or Public Jewish music or Public shofar or Public Chabad messianism etc etc (and you can find notices in papers about that happening), it does NOT mean that those are subjects that are somehow "new" and "deserve" articles apart from the regular Tefillin or Shabbat candles or Four Species or Jewish music or Shofar or Chabad messianism etc etc articles, because if so it would all be violating WP:POVFORK especially when it's an OBVIOUS attempt to promote solely Chabad-Lubavitch activities from a Chabad-slanted WP:POV and in violation of WP:NOTSOAPBOX and WP:NOTWEBHOST because, simply put, Wikipedia is NOT Chabad.org! Thanks, IZAK (talk) 12:30, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- Merge any relevant content into Menorah. I don't see any evidence that a "public menorah" is anything but a menorah that happens to be displayed in public. This is the same reason we don't have Public Christmas tree. --Glenfarclas (talk) 11:06, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:40, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- Keep: Come on, this article is still just a stub. Yet again people are zealously recommending articles for deletion before they've had a chance to be developed. Leave a "this article needs to be expanded" tag. As for its notability, a public menora is quite different from the regular Menora that each Jew traditionally lights in his house. Rather, it is a new practice spearheaded by the Lubavitcher Rebbe for the purposes of publicising the miracles of Chanuka and outreach to Jews and non-Jews. It has also garnered much public attention in the USA because of the religion and state controversies surrounding it being displayed publicly. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 14:52, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- Keep for now: It could certainly use a section about the litigation in the USA. There should probably also be something about public menorot in Israel, where the practise is long-established, and probably a pic of the giant one on the Jerusalem-Tel-Aviv highway. If after a few months it seems that the article still belongs as a section of Menorah_(Hanukkah) then we can reopen the merge discussion. -- Zsero (talk) 14:57, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- Keep This is an issue outside the scope of the general Menorah article, being that it is 1. an event that is organised around the Menorah lighting, 2. extensively covered by media (so the claim by the nominator that it is not notable is fairly ridiculous, see e.g. Emanuel lights National Menorah at White House, AP), and 3. part of a series about Chabad. Debresser (talk) 14:58, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- Merge into Chabad article on outreach, or part of the menorah article. Yossiea (talk) 16:37, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- Comment I've added a controversy section to the article, which proves that in the US, the constitutionality of displaying public menorahs was challenged by the ACLU, and it went to the Supreme Court. This surely proves the independent notability of this article. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 19:32, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
I think this means we may close this Afd per WP:SNOW. Debresser (talk) 19:42, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- You'd be wrong; there isn't only a single option being put forward here. AfDs run for seven days. pablohablo. 20:46, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- WP:SNOW applies to Afd as well. I have seen it being used a few times on WP:CFD also. Debresser (talk) 23:19, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed it does, you should read it. pablohablo. 23:32, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you. Perhaps I will. :) But for your convenience I am willing to agree that I am only predicting that after the edit Yehoishophot Oliver is referring to, this will turn out to be a WP:SNOW case. Debresser (talk) 23:49, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed it does, you should read it. pablohablo. 23:32, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- WP:SNOW applies to Afd as well. I have seen it being used a few times on WP:CFD also. Debresser (talk) 23:19, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- Keep Extremely notable. As stated above the topic gets massive press coverage every year. 28,000 Google hits. I cant think of one reason this is not notable. Shlomke (talk) 01:39, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Delete FORK article, salvage some information into Menorah (Hanukkah) and Chabad. This is similar to having a separate FORK for a 'Public Nativity scene' article, even with some juicy 'controversy' section (controvery = legitimacy?). Anyway, 'Public menorah' is a new phenomenon that the vast majority of Jews do not 'practice' and most other rabbis 'deprecate' in importance by discouraging the main lighter from saying the blessing with God's name, in contrast to the public lighting of the Hanukiah in the synagogue. And in this day and age, 28,000 Google hits is nothing special. --Shuki (talk) 23:01, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- 1. Barack Obama is also "new", nor do most American "practise" the presidency. Nevertheless he has a huge Wikipedia article. 2. Lighting public menorahs has been an active campain for I think some 15 years by now. 3. It follows that your opinion to delete is a result of your prejudice against the public lighting of menorahs, and not a matter of rationale application of Wikipedia standards. Sorry, but your problem with Chabad you had better leave out of this discussion. Debresser (talk) 01:20, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- On the contrary, Shuki has actually strengthened the argument for the independent notability of the article from the general Menora article, by confirming the claim made early that "'Public menorah' is a new phenomenon", and that, at least in his estimation, many rabbis oppose it. May I add that anyone perusing the google results for "Public Menorah" will see that not only are these ghits from blogs or the like, they are from reputable news sites, as public menorah lightings are regularly reported in the media as a notable public religious event. And they have received much recent coverage of late after Moldovan Christians tore one down. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 03:44, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- 1. Barack Obama is also "new", nor do most American "practise" the presidency. Nevertheless he has a huge Wikipedia article. 2. Lighting public menorahs has been an active campain for I think some 15 years by now. 3. It follows that your opinion to delete is a result of your prejudice against the public lighting of menorahs, and not a matter of rationale application of Wikipedia standards. Sorry, but your problem with Chabad you had better leave out of this discussion. Debresser (talk) 01:20, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- Merge and Redirect to the main Menorah (Hanukkah) article because: (1) This whole notion of lighting and pushing "public menorahs" was an outright brand new very recent WP:OR invention of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe, it was never practiced by any Jewish community for 2000 years in exile to go and place huge menorahs in public squares, even though there is a custom to light ONE'S OWN menorah outside one's house, weather permitting, and it does not look nice that his disciples have the audacity to act as if Wikipedia is now Lubavitch territory in violation of WP:OWN! (2) There is no such thing as a "Public menorah" in Jewish law or that is in any way notable above and beyond a regular dinky menorah in one's home since if that is so one could create articles about Apartment menorah, Rooftop menorah, Hallway menorah, Bedroom menorah, or for that matter Clay menorah, Gold menorah, or Ashkenazi menorah, Sefardi menorah etc etc etc -- all of which are valid topics even in Jewish law but there is no point in splitting hairs for this: (3) Clearly violating WP:POVFORKing. (4) Thus it violates WP:POV-pushing because if, as in this instance, there is major significance that Chabad Lubavitch places on this subject, and it clearly does, then that subject matter should be moved to the pro-Chabad article about Mitzvah Campaigns that really have nothing to do with menorahs as such but are aimed at furthering the Chabad world view upon everyone. (5) Violation of WP:NOTSOAPBOX and WP:NOTWEBHOST because Wikipedia is NOT Chabad.org! Happy Chanuka to all! IZAK (talk) 04:34, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- All these arguments are nonsense and almost self-refuting. (1) The Lubavitcher Rebbe was certainly qualified to do original research! What has that got to do with the WP article, which contains nothing not found in reliable sources? (2) Public menorahs certainly exist — you can see one not far from wherever it is that you live — and are the subject of much coverage. How OWN is relevant is beyond me; it seems more like your opposition is a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. (3) It's not at all clear to me; no POV is expressed that couldn't equally be expressed in Menorah (Hanukkah). (4) It is one among many activities in which Chabad is a major (but far from exclusive) player; why should they all go in one article? Especially since not all public menorot have anything to do with Chabad. (5) Huh? I can't even parse that one; it sounds like the SOAPBOX is under your feet. -- Zsero (talk) 05:24, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- Zsero: Do you even know what WP:NONSENSE means? Check it out. (1) Regardless of what the Lubavitcher Rebbe was allowed or not allowed to do, and outside of Chabad-Lubavitch the Orthodox rabbinical establishment did not follow him, in fact they opposed him and his drive for hegemony, therefore by a Wikipedia editor adopting a unilateral directive of the Lubuvitcher Rebbe and then posting and foisting it on Wikipedia, that editor has taken ownership of the subject and is thereby himself guilty of WP:POV-pushing a WP:NOR subject simply because: Lubavitcher Rebbe=pro-Chabad Wikipedia editors. There is NO consensus in the Orthodox world about public menorahs and the ONLY ones who push it are the Lubavitchers for only ONE reason, because their Rebbe ordered them to do so, and they do so robotically and unthinkingly, so this is then part of Mitzvah Campaigns and has zero to do with any types of menorahs be they public, private, communal or hidden. (2) Actually I like ALL menorahs including public ones as a curiosity item, but I do not think that because one group runs around and as part of its mindless creed pushes it, that I or any editor on Wikipedia needs to agree with having an article about it when the main Menorah (Hanukkah) is fair, open enough and will do just fine. (3) So just put this information in the main Menorah (Hanukkah) article or have your druthers and plop it into Mitzvah Campaigns where it more strategically belongs. There really is nothing special or significant or even WP:NOTABLE about having huge outdoors menorahs sponsored by Lubavitch only to go up in competition with outdoors Christmas trees, and there is no article for Public Christmas tree either and rightly so or articles for big floating air-filled balloons or blimps of Disney cartoon characters, like having Public Mickey Mouse displays on public parades. (4) Simply because there is a rule on Wikipedia of WP:POVFORK -- read up on it, you may learn something about Wikipedia policies. (5) Good joke. Have you noticed how a small band of pro-Chabad editors has been relentlessly creating articles on Wikipedia in the spirit of Chabad.org and they then violate WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND and WP:WAR whenever any serious editors oppose them with rational, logical and factual arguments, this being a clear-cut case in point. Get real, you're fooling no one but yourself. Shalom. IZAK (talk) 05:56, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- All these arguments are nonsense and almost self-refuting. (1) The Lubavitcher Rebbe was certainly qualified to do original research! What has that got to do with the WP article, which contains nothing not found in reliable sources? (2) Public menorahs certainly exist — you can see one not far from wherever it is that you live — and are the subject of much coverage. How OWN is relevant is beyond me; it seems more like your opposition is a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. (3) It's not at all clear to me; no POV is expressed that couldn't equally be expressed in Menorah (Hanukkah). (4) It is one among many activities in which Chabad is a major (but far from exclusive) player; why should they all go in one article? Especially since not all public menorot have anything to do with Chabad. (5) Huh? I can't even parse that one; it sounds like the SOAPBOX is under your feet. -- Zsero (talk) 05:24, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- Wow, Izak, it's amazing how in everything you wrote, aside from lots of utterly blatant POV-pushing (e.g., that you don't approve of Public Menorahs from reasons a,b,c, and since some rabbis disagreed with some things the Lubavitcher Rebbe said, therefore his widely followed directives shouldn't be considered notable enough to be on Wikipedia, and certainly not to be given independent articles, and one who does so violates ... WP:OWN!), you didn't give even one cogent argument to respond to the claims for this article's independent notability, such as the fact that it is 1) new and different historically from a private menorah (as you yourself point out (and Shuki before you)!); 2) the entire community is invited to ceremonies for public lightings, where famous dignitaries are honored with the privilege to kindle the Menora, and these ceremonies have become widely accepted in communities all over the world as an occasion of note, leading to the fact that 3) ceremonies for public Menora lightings are reported regularly in the media all over the world; 4) the issue of displaying a public Menora reached the Supreme Court, which had far-reaching implications for constitutional law. May I add that no one took "ownership" of a subject; we are writing on a topic that we think is notable, and in fact, there is now also a controversy section to create what some might call "balance". Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 07:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- Yehoishophot: The point here is very simple, everything you say is very nice but basically not to the point simply because the notion and existence of placing and pushing king size public menorahs in pulic today is 100% the invention of an idea and command that came from one man, the 7th and last Lubavitcher Rebbe, so that you may in fact even want to merge the article to its true and accurate source Menachem Mendel Shneerson. I have stated the views to merge and redirect very clearly, and it serves no purpose to go round in circles. Let's see where this AfD discussion leads. Thanks a lot. IZAK (talk) 08:43, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- Wow, Izak, it's amazing how in everything you wrote, aside from lots of utterly blatant POV-pushing (e.g., that you don't approve of Public Menorahs from reasons a,b,c, and since some rabbis disagreed with some things the Lubavitcher Rebbe said, therefore his widely followed directives shouldn't be considered notable enough to be on Wikipedia, and certainly not to be given independent articles, and one who does so violates ... WP:OWN!), you didn't give even one cogent argument to respond to the claims for this article's independent notability, such as the fact that it is 1) new and different historically from a private menorah (as you yourself point out (and Shuki before you)!); 2) the entire community is invited to ceremonies for public lightings, where famous dignitaries are honored with the privilege to kindle the Menora, and these ceremonies have become widely accepted in communities all over the world as an occasion of note, leading to the fact that 3) ceremonies for public Menora lightings are reported regularly in the media all over the world; 4) the issue of displaying a public Menora reached the Supreme Court, which had far-reaching implications for constitutional law. May I add that no one took "ownership" of a subject; we are writing on a topic that we think is notable, and in fact, there is now also a controversy section to create what some might call "balance". Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 07:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- Merge and Redirect to the main Menorah (Hanukkah) - For all the reasons that Izak cites. He is simply correct in his analysis. Now, I happen to sort of like Chabad's public menorah displays, but my personal taste has no effect on Wikipedia article policy. And since we do follow article policy, this kind of information must be merged into the appropriate article as Izak says. RK (talk) 04:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- Merge suggestion. While I'd like to go on record against IZAK's tone of voice, he has some good points. As per IZAK and RK, I'd like to suggest that the info in this article get merged into both Menorah (Hanukkah) and Mitzvah Campaigns. It would also be the start of a much needed expansion of Mitzvah Campaigns (IMHO). Joe407 (talk) 06:27, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- Keep. A lot of the information presented in this article wouldn't fit in the basic Menorah article, let alone the Mitzvah Campaigns article. For example, the recent anti-Semitic attacks against public menorah lighting (moldova and vienna). While I'll admit that this isn't the most important topic, I definitely recognize its notability as strong enough to have a Wikipedia article. Breein1007 (talk) 08:57, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- Keep and expand. This is not about Menorah lighting itself, which is only done in one's own house or in synagogues. The fact that the public lighting is only practised by Chabbad does not make it less notable. It is disputed by Jews and non-Jews alike, for various reasons, and serves as the background for many an antisemitic scene. All this should be expanded on in the article. -- Nahum (talk) 11:19, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- Merge + redirect to Menorah (Hanukkah). pablohablo. 14:11, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- Comment. I think we need a new article dealing with the conflict between religion and public policy. There is the issue of public displays of Christmas trees, menorahs and the ten commandments. As well, I can recall hearing about conflict regarding the use/display of mezuzahs and wreaths in apartment complexes, and there was a recent case which went to the Illinois Supreme Court regarding a man who disinherited several of his grandchildren because they married non-Jews. --Eliyak T·C 19:32, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- Or may as well create an article Exhibitionism in religion or just simply redirect the article to Exhibitionism and be done with it. IZAK (talk) 20:23, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- Keep Many innovations in Judaism begin as projects of one Jewish movement or another (the chavurah and Jewish renewal, for example) and gain wider acceptance over time. The fact that Chabad is currently the chief, or exclusive, sponsor of public menorot does not diminish the notability of the subject. The article has been suitably expanded since this AfD began that it no longer seems like a POV fork. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:11, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- Um, Malik, yes all menorahs are notable and not because any one group, besides ALL the Jews, use them, it's a serious rabbinic commandment of over 2000 years and specified in the Talmud and the Shulchan Aruch that makes it notable so what's the "innovation" here? The Jewish sages of 2000 years ago said that ANY menorah is a pirsumei nisa/"publicization of the miracle" of Chanuka. So that if someone said go set up big ones at street corners, that's a craze not an "innovation" in Jewish law, it's ONLY a menorah. It's just a menorah placed in a public place. It would be like advocating for articles about Seaside menorah or Countryside menorah or Basement menorah etc etc -- no matter where they are placed, they are menorahs, hence this is a violation of WP:POVFORK plain and simple. IZAK (talk) 20:23, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- I don't want to get into an argument with you, IZAK, but if somebody started a new tradition of lighting menorot on beaches, and the subject attracted both news coverage and lawsuits, Seaside menorah would satisfy the notability guidelines and might merit an article (or a section within Public menorah). — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:30, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- Um, Malik, yes all menorahs are notable and not because any one group, besides ALL the Jews, use them, it's a serious rabbinic commandment of over 2000 years and specified in the Talmud and the Shulchan Aruch that makes it notable so what's the "innovation" here? The Jewish sages of 2000 years ago said that ANY menorah is a pirsumei nisa/"publicization of the miracle" of Chanuka. So that if someone said go set up big ones at street corners, that's a craze not an "innovation" in Jewish law, it's ONLY a menorah. It's just a menorah placed in a public place. It would be like advocating for articles about Seaside menorah or Countryside menorah or Basement menorah etc etc -- no matter where they are placed, they are menorahs, hence this is a violation of WP:POVFORK plain and simple. IZAK (talk) 20:23, 18 December 2009 (UTC)