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*'''Oppose deletion''' The subject is a significant personality. Considering that the government's number one priority is the fight against corruption, it is important to include the article.[[User:Calmecac5|Calmecac5]] ([[User talk:Calmecac5|talk]]) 14:48, 16 September 2020 (UTC) |
*'''Oppose deletion''' The subject is a significant personality. Considering that the government's number one priority is the fight against corruption, it is important to include the article.[[User:Calmecac5|Calmecac5]] ([[User talk:Calmecac5|talk]]) 14:48, 16 September 2020 (UTC) |
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:*Just being related to a famous person doesn't make people notable in their own right. A significant personality should get non-trivial reliably sourced coverage about who Pío López Obrador is as an independent subject. Creating a biography of living person solely composed of unproven allegations violates multiple Wikipedia policies, as I and the nominator have stated above. If the media aren't producing an in-depth profile of this person, it is not Wikipedia's purpose to shine a spotlight on him. [[User:Gene93k|• Gene93k]] ([[User talk:Gene93k|talk]]) 16:35, 16 September 2020 (UTC) |
:*Just being related to a famous person doesn't make people notable in their own right. A significant personality should get non-trivial reliably sourced coverage about who Pío López Obrador is as an independent subject. Creating a biography of living person solely composed of unproven allegations violates multiple Wikipedia policies, as I and the nominator have stated above. If the media aren't producing an in-depth profile of this person, it is not Wikipedia's purpose to shine a spotlight on him. [[User:Gene93k|• Gene93k]] ([[User talk:Gene93k|talk]]) 16:35, 16 September 2020 (UTC) |
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*'''Strongly oppose deletion''' |
*'''Strongly oppose deletion'''. The information possibly (this is theoretical, have not assessed) should be merged into the brother's or some other article, but I vehemently oppose deleting it because Mexicans aren't rioting in the streets. If nothing else it should be in [[Corruption in Mexico]] [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 04:45, 17 September 2020 (UTC) |
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**Are you really linking a [[WP:BLP]] to various scandals and to drug cartels without any actual evidence (these aren't even mentioned in the newspaper articles), never mind a conviction? {{ping|Elinruby}} I would urge you to remove these allegations, as this is simply not allowed on Wikipedia. [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram|talk]]) 06:40, 17 September 2020 (UTC) |
**Are you really linking a [[WP:BLP]] to various scandals and to drug cartels without any actual evidence (these aren't even mentioned in the newspaper articles), never mind a conviction? {{ping|Elinruby}} I would urge you to remove these allegations, as this is simply not allowed on Wikipedia. [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram|talk]]) 06:40, 17 September 2020 (UTC) |
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::You do not understand BLP policy, AGF. [This https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-odebrecht/mexico-asks-brazils-moro-for-help-with-its-odebrecht-graft-probe-source-idUSKCN1SD2QE] makes it extremely plausible that such a claim has been made (see Dilma and Lula). |
::You do not understand BLP policy, AGF. [This https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-odebrecht/mexico-asks-brazils-moro-for-help-with-its-odebrecht-graft-probe-source-idUSKCN1SD2QE] makes it extremely plausible that such a claim has been made (see Dilma and Lula). |
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::* I say these things as someone who has spent several years with the material. It is relevant to Operation Car Wash and the Odebrecht pages. These are absolutely in line with Wikipedia policy; I was named editor of the week for some of my stuff on Operation Car Wash. There is definitely a BLP concern but at least at this point I disagree with any speedy deletion. I have categorized the article under Corruption in Mexico. It is relevant to this category whether true or not. I have also identified the Chiapas politician. I suggest vetting the sources if you want to delete it. [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 08:08, 17 September 2020 (UTC) |
::* I say these things as someone who has spent several years with the material. It is relevant to Operation Car Wash and the Odebrecht pages. These are absolutely in line with Wikipedia policy; I was named editor of the week for some of my stuff on Operation Car Wash. There is definitely a BLP concern but at least at this point I disagree with any speedy deletion. I have categorized the article under Corruption in Mexico. It is relevant to this category whether true or not. I have also identified the Chiapas politician. I suggest vetting the sources if you want to delete it. [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 08:08, 17 September 2020 (UTC) |
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::: I just realized that you probably don't know that the bagman is always somebody's brother. [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 08:12, 17 September 2020 (UTC) |
::: I just realized that you probably don't know that the bagman is always somebody's brother. [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 08:12, 17 September 2020 (UTC) |
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::::Fine, I have removed the BLP violations for you then. You are using a reuters article which doesn't mention Pio as a justification for your smears on him. It doesn't matter if they may be true or not, without reliable sources making the same accusations they shouldn't be discussed here (and without a conviction they shouldn't be in the article). IF you reinstate the allegations and implications I will bring this to some appropriate noticeboard instead. [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram|talk]]) 08:59, 17 September 2020 (UTC) |
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*'''Likely copyvio''': My Spanish isn't quite good enough to be sure this article lifts whole paragraphs from its references, but I think it does. If so, that is reason enough to delete it, but at least one of those sources looks pretty reputable. Would be interested to know what others think, but, I suspect there may be some truth there, but I don't know what it is. I have not followed Mexico in much detail. Obrador is supposed to be a populist reformer. Important if true. HTH. [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 08:26, 17 September 2020 (UTC) |
*'''Likely copyvio''': My Spanish isn't quite good enough to be sure this article lifts whole paragraphs from its references, but I think it does. If so, that is reason enough to delete it, but at least one of those sources looks pretty reputable. Would be interested to know what others think, but, I suspect there may be some truth there, but I don't know what it is. I have not followed Mexico in much detail. Obrador is supposed to be a populist reformer. Important if true. HTH. [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 08:26, 17 September 2020 (UTC) |
Revision as of 08:59, 17 September 2020
Pío López Obrador
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Fails WP:CRIMINAL / WP:BLPCRIME, which states "Editors must give serious consideration to not creating an article on an alleged perpetrator when no conviction is yet secured." All we have here are some newspaper allegations of so far minor calibre, not even a court case or a truly major scandal (the kind that gets massive street protests and the like), about a minor politician (a candidate, but not elected) who is the brother of a notable person. Fram (talk) 07:28, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Fram (talk) 07:28, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Fram (talk) 07:28, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Mexico-related deletion discussions. Fram (talk) 07:28, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- Delete. The nominator's assessment is correct as a WP:BLPCRIME/WP:POLITICIAN fail with trivial biographical depth beyond the accusations of corruption. • Gene93k (talk) 12:17, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose deletion The subject is a significant personality. Considering that the government's number one priority is the fight against corruption, it is important to include the article.Calmecac5 (talk) 14:48, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- Just being related to a famous person doesn't make people notable in their own right. A significant personality should get non-trivial reliably sourced coverage about who Pío López Obrador is as an independent subject. Creating a biography of living person solely composed of unproven allegations violates multiple Wikipedia policies, as I and the nominator have stated above. If the media aren't producing an in-depth profile of this person, it is not Wikipedia's purpose to shine a spotlight on him. • Gene93k (talk) 16:35, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- Strongly oppose deletion. The information possibly (this is theoretical, have not assessed) should be merged into the brother's or some other article, but I vehemently oppose deleting it because Mexicans aren't rioting in the streets. If nothing else it should be in Corruption in Mexico Elinruby (talk) 04:45, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
- Are you really linking a WP:BLP to various scandals and to drug cartels without any actual evidence (these aren't even mentioned in the newspaper articles), never mind a conviction? @Elinruby: I would urge you to remove these allegations, as this is simply not allowed on Wikipedia. Fram (talk) 06:40, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
- You do not understand BLP policy, AGF. [This https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-odebrecht/mexico-asks-brazils-moro-for-help-with-its-odebrecht-graft-probe-source-idUSKCN1SD2QE] makes it extremely plausible that such a claim has been made (see Dilma and Lula).
- I am not linking anything, I am saying this is not a case for speedy deletion just because the Mexican people are not in the street.
- The Mexican people have in fact been in the street and in the jungle for some time in Chiapas
- I am not endorsing the truth of the reporting. If convinced it is untrue I will withdraw my objection.
- I have not evaluated the sources. This would be a better basis for making this decision than whether there is an insurrection, imho.
- It is also possible that these references are hit pieces, which would also be notable.
- I say these things as someone who has spent several years with the material. It is relevant to Operation Car Wash and the Odebrecht pages. These are absolutely in line with Wikipedia policy; I was named editor of the week for some of my stuff on Operation Car Wash. There is definitely a BLP concern but at least at this point I disagree with any speedy deletion. I have categorized the article under Corruption in Mexico. It is relevant to this category whether true or not. I have also identified the Chiapas politician. I suggest vetting the sources if you want to delete it. Elinruby (talk) 08:08, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
- I just realized that you probably don't know that the bagman is always somebody's brother. Elinruby (talk) 08:12, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
- Fine, I have removed the BLP violations for you then. You are using a reuters article which doesn't mention Pio as a justification for your smears on him. It doesn't matter if they may be true or not, without reliable sources making the same accusations they shouldn't be discussed here (and without a conviction they shouldn't be in the article). IF you reinstate the allegations and implications I will bring this to some appropriate noticeboard instead. Fram (talk) 08:59, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
- You do not understand BLP policy, AGF. [This https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-odebrecht/mexico-asks-brazils-moro-for-help-with-its-odebrecht-graft-probe-source-idUSKCN1SD2QE] makes it extremely plausible that such a claim has been made (see Dilma and Lula).
- Likely copyvio: My Spanish isn't quite good enough to be sure this article lifts whole paragraphs from its references, but I think it does. If so, that is reason enough to delete it, but at least one of those sources looks pretty reputable. Would be interested to know what others think, but, I suspect there may be some truth there, but I don't know what it is. I have not followed Mexico in much detail. Obrador is supposed to be a populist reformer. Important if true. HTH. Elinruby (talk) 08:26, 17 September 2020 (UTC)