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==Mbsyl== |
==Mbsyl== |
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{{hat|Mbysl blocked one month for repeated topic ban violations. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 05:55, 24 February 2020 (UTC) }} |
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<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 [[Word count#Software|words]] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> |
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 [[Word count#Software|words]] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> |
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*It appears that all of the edits by Mbsyl listed above violate [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mbsyl&diff=937755473&oldid=937396455 the BLP topic ban imposed by Acroterion on 27 January]. The wording of the ban makes it apply to living persons both in articles and on talk pages. I suggest a one-month AE block. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 03:19, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
*It appears that all of the edits by Mbsyl listed above violate [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mbsyl&diff=937755473&oldid=937396455 the BLP topic ban imposed by Acroterion on 27 January]. The wording of the ban makes it apply to living persons both in articles and on talk pages. I suggest a one-month AE block. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 03:19, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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*I concur with [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]]. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 03:38, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
*I concur with [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]]. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 03:38, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 05:55, 24 February 2020
QuackGuru
QuackGuru is blocked for three months. Thryduulf (talk) 12:16, 19 February 2020 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning QuackGuru
I started a section on Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#QuackGuru and was informed about the arbitration case and advised that was the wrong forum and this was the correct one. The discussion there is still ongoing, so apologies if this is inappropriate duplication.
Interactions with QuackGuru appear to have contributed to the departure of User:Mfernflower from this topic. While looking into the reasons for their dissatisfaction with the resolution of previous disputes, I found a long discussion in case starting in September 2019 at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1021#QuackGuru and disruption over e-cigs and pod mods which I'll let speak for itself. The closure on that also suggests taking up the issue here. QuackGuru is clearly smart and some interactions have been constructive—it often takes experienced editors from different perspectives to polish a text to be well-referenced and neutral. But sometimes they will veer from constructive to what appears to be deliberately obstructive. I would hate to lose the useful contributions of this editor, but I also hate to lose the contributions of other editors who don't have the patience to argue past the obstructionism or rope in third editors or start dispute resolution proceedings.
Discussion concerning QuackGuruStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by QuackGuruTalk:2019–20 vaping lung illness outbreak#Removal of update section tag - I removed the tag because no new source was presented. The content Beland added "though individual cases do not provide strong evidence of causal relationships"[1] was unsupported by the source. I tagged the content and replaced it with verifiable content. Belend merged the article on 21 December 2019.[2] After the merge was undone it was merged again after the AFD close.[3] The merge was overturned.[4] Beland merged the article again on 13 January 2020[5] and deleted the entire Patients section.[6] The talk page consensus limited it to three cases.[7] I removed the tags from the Hospitalized cases in the vaping lung illness outbreak because I did not believe there was a serious enough issue to justify the multiple tags. FULBERT removed two of the tags.[8] Talk:Nicotine pouch#Alarming amount of Ownership and unreliable source about Kenya - The word "lobbies" is a general term and it does not specify who made the claim. Beland wrote in part: "It would be unwise to attribute claims made by "lobbies" to KTCA..."[9] The discussion at Talk:2019–20 vaping lung illness outbreak#Predicting the future in a scary way involved content cited to a 2019 review. The content is stating that the lung injuries could be more widespread and the lung injuries in various countries is not clear. It is not stating anything in a scary way. All the content from the review was deleted and the unverifiable content not vitamin E acetate was added by Beland. I started a RfC to help resolve the matter for Talk:Hospitalized cases in the vaping lung illness outbreak#NPOV issues and Talk:Hospitalized cases in the vaping lung illness outbreak#Vaping among teenagers by proposing verifiable content for the lede. The matter involving MelanieN for the e-cig lede was about updating the text. I objected to including a US-centric warning in the lede since the outbreak is not worldwide. The matter involving KristofferR at the e-cig article was mainly about misleading content. The misleading content was fixed and I added a note to clarify the outbreak content. The matter involving Sunline09 at the e-cig article was more about WP:SYNC. All previous versions were a SYNC violation. I copied content from the lede of the subarticle for the Frequency section. The matter involving Seraphimblade was resolved here. On 29 December 2019 Seraphimblade reverted to an older version. It was undone by Doc James.[10] Andy Dingley says "I've certainly avoided pod mod, QuackGuru, and their personal space of vaping articles ever since...".[11] According to talk page consensus a sentence fails verification. Andy Dingley made a comment about the pod mod article on 14:38, 6 December 2019. Soon after, Andy Dingley removed the FV tag on 14:54, 6 December 2019. The source mentions nicotine salts on pages 95-96 but it does not verify the claim. The content and the quality of sources is under dispute at the nicotine pouch article. KristofferR added commercial websites and added nettotobak.com that sells LYFT products. I tagged the unreliable source and other unreliable sources. Beland removed the unreliable tag added to the nettotobak.com commercial website and other tags were removed. Beland also added commercial websites. I requested verification for "Unlike vaping products".[12] Beland asked me "Why would that require verification?"[13] The PDF file does not verify the claim "Unlike vaping products" added by Beland. On controversial topics there are usually content disputes. Editors have different interpretations of policy. I am concerned that there may be no opportunity to examine in detail whether the content I tagged as failed verification did indeed fail verification. However, I accept that people disagree. I understand other editors' frustration and I am looking for a way to resolve the issue. Would it help if I don't add or remove tags for a year? QuackGuru (talk) 01:11, 11 February 2020 (UTC) @Barkeep49: The reason I am concerned is because I and others have submitted evidence before and the response was a resounding yawn. I am also concerned that the commercial websites at Nicotine pouch will not be thoroughly examined. For example, the 3rd citation at Nicotine pouch is this commercial website. Websites that sell these products are kind of spammy and are poor sources. I did not want to immediately fix the failed verification at Nicotine pouch because KristofferR was reverting my edits[14][15][16] (as well as Doc James[17][18]) at Electronic cigarette after the failed verification content was redacted. I did not want to get into an edit war at Nicotine pouch after what recently transpired at Electronic cigarette. KristofferR copied the discussion from my talk page over to the nicotine pouch talk page. KristofferR thought the word "lobbies" is likely inaccurate and a language error. I thought verifiability policy is applicable rather than trying to seek truth. QuackGuru (talk) 01:35, 12 February 2020 (UTC) Additional comments by QuackGuru: Unsourced content and failed verification content are continuing to be introduced to this topic area and I don't see others trying to redact the problematic content. In the edit summary Beland wrote "this variation is in fact mentioned in the body in the Construction section".[19] The Electronic cigarette article is not the Construction article. A rewrite of the content is also not a summary of Electronic cigarette and it is unsourced. A similar change to Safety of electronic cigarettes fails verification and it is not a summary of content in the body the Safety article. See discussion. @Barkeep49: The word "also" fails verification because the organisation did not "also" make the claim. They made one of the claims in the paragraph. One of the sentences was attributed to Kenya Tobacco Control Alliance when the source made a broader claim it was "lobbies". Once that would be fixed it would no longer be "also". The word "also" has since been removed from that paragraph. You believe I am right a real % of the time to challenge the text. A personal consensus requirement would not allow me to revert failed verification content. If you read the talk pages involving failed verification content or other issues the editor who added the problematic content almost always disagrees there is any problem with the content. There is still failed verification content in the nicotine pouch article such as the part "Unlike Vaping product". After verification was requested, I was asked Why would that require verification? rather than provide verification or removed the disputed content. A "personal consensus required" will not allow me to update a few numbers in an article because I reverted a citation added by another editor and changed numbers. The "personal consensus required" commentary was made before I had a chance to respond. Now that I have responded uninvolved sysops may want to review my response and additional commentary before coming to a final conclusion. QuackGuru (talk) 14:26, 12 February 2020 (UTC) Statement by LevivichI clicked, at random, on the third link, to Talk:Nicotine_pouch#Alarming_amount_of_Ownership_and_unreliable_source_about_Kenya
How is the "consensus required" sanction different from WP:BRD? Statement by Doc JamesAnd than we have the tagging issue on the other side. User:Beland requests that an "update" tag not be removed as the that section ONLY has sources from September 2019.[20] Was tagged in this edit.[21] Seriously if you have newer sources than add them. September is only a couple of months ago. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:20, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by MelanieNI’ll chime in here to share my own experience with QuackGuru. I was also driven away from an article by his relentless ownership. Last September I went to the Electronic cigarette article, intending to see that the coverage of the vaping-related lung illness was being reported accurately. I made six edits over a three-day period, most of which were immediately reverted by QuackGuru. His resistance to anything not contributed by him was total. One battle that I lost was his insistence on retaining a lot of outmoded information in the lede; see the second paragraph in the lede, which to this to this day consists mostly of outmoded studies from years ago indicating that vaping is pretty harmless, with a single sentence at the end of the paragraph mentioning the vaping-related illness outbreak in the U.S. last summer. Another example: he totally rejected my attempts to insert the warnings issued by the CDC and AMA, insisting that warnings couldn’t be in the lede, or had to go in a different article entirely, or were non-neutral, or were silly, or were WP:NEWS, or whatever other argument he could think of. In this talk page exchange you can see my fruitless attempts to bring the article up to date and put the relevant information in the lead. I summoned Doc James to the article’s talk page, but his recommendations were also rejected. I don’t really know what can be done about this situation, because the entire article, and its multiple spinoffs, are totally QC's creation, and the articles are written in his almost unreadable style, which consists of dozens or hundreds of single sentences, each summarizing a report and sourced to that report, with no context or summarizing allowed. Trying to rewrite the article to make it more readable would be an enormous job even if it wasn’t fought by him at every turn. Trying to do any editing at all is pretty much impossible. -- MelanieN (talk) 06:45, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by SeraphimbladeI had considered the course of action of an AE filing myself, based upon what I've seen of QuackGuru at Hospitalized cases in the vaping lung illness outbreak. I will first say that I believe QG has the best of intentions in keeping the encyclopedia free of pseudoscience and woo, and I have often myself seen QG do good work in those areas. However, in this area, QG has been a problem there as well. QuackGuru has the habit of, rather than participating in discussion, continuing to repeat himself with claims like "failed verification", even after being shown the specific portion of the reference which confirms the article text, as here. QuackGuru's conduct can have the effect of driving other good-faith contributors away entirely as well [28]. While I see that Thryduulf has proposed sanctions related to tags and reverts, those are not in my view the primary issues. Rather, the core issue is ownership of articles and I didn't hear that during discussions, as well as reverts with a simple statement of "failed verification" without any explanation of what QG believes failed verification and why, which make interaction with QuackGuru, especially in this area, a phenomenally frustrating experience. 1RR and a prohibition on tag removal will not solve those problems. Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:23, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Andy DingleyMy experiences echo those of MelanieN. I've had little to do with QuackGuru, and that was too much. Late last year there was a backlog drive at AfC, which I took part in. QuackGuru objected strongly to the pod mod article, blanked it as a "hoax" (a farcical claim) and then was persistently disruptive afterwards, with clear behaviours beyond OWN and IDHT. Several times they deleted a claim or section made by others, only to add it back again themselves later on. Their attitude to sourcing is peculiar, seemingly regarding anything that isn't a literal text copy as then not supporting the claimed content. Yet nowhere else on WP do we seem to have a problem in avoiding close paraphrasing like that. They also relied on that old favourite MEDRS for issues, such as the aesthetic design of commercial products which are outside the MEDRS scope. A long ANI thread was the result: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1021#QuackGuru and disruption over e-cigs and pod mods I've certainly avoided pod mod, QuackGuru, and their personal space of vaping articles ever since, even to the point of avoiding AfC (which still has a backlog) altogether. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:26, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by KristofferRI deliberately took a break from Wikipedia for a few days because I found dealing with QuackGuru so exhausting. I was relieved to go back and find this discussion, and the issues I consider QuackGuru to have introduced to the articles I participated in, to be fixed. I won't beat around the bush too much, as my experiences completely echo those of others here. Suffice to say to say I found him to inherit an alarming amount of ownership to the articles in question, and fight participation by abusing sourcing requirements by adding "failed verification", "unreliable source", or similar tags, to every sentence added, despite the sources being undeniably reliable (government sources for example) or not needed at all due to WP:BLUE, and subsequently add complaints about overcitation when too many sources are added as a last ditch resort to satisfy him. The nicotine pouch article was especially egregious, he threatened a revert of all my edits to the article, to an objectively inferior version (where health statements from an anti-tobacco lobby was listed under "Research" for example), due to his abuse of sourcing tags. Thankfully this discussion happened, Beland stepped in, and fixed the real issues with the article while also leaving in the relevant content I contributed. Thanks again Beland! KristofferR (talk) 05:19, 9 February 2020 (UTC) Answer to question from Johnuniq by Beland@Johnuniq: It's a bit unfair to judge remarks taken out of context, but if it helps here are some examples. Based on two news articles that each relate stories from several patients hospitalized with vaping injuries, in this edit I combined "Teenagers who were admitted to the hospital due to vaping-induced lung illnesses are sharing their stories and telling others to quit vaping." and "People who came close to death from a vaping-induced illness are also telling their stories." into "Some patients are sharing stories of hospitalizations and life-threatening symptoms." dropping "and telling others to quit vaping" because the source didn't explicitly say they were doing so, just that they had inspired people to do so (and this did not sound neutral). Quoting from Talk:Hospitalized_cases_in_the_vaping_lung_illness_outbreak#NPOV_issues:
Refusing to apply the meanings of words and pretending that proposed changes resultingly cause a sourcing violation is probably the most vexing pattern of obstruction; slavish copying can also (as in this case) act as a backdoor to import the POV of a source. Slavish sourcing also results in very choppy articles with no summarizing allowed. Though strong sourcing is awesome, QuackGuru seems to have an interpretation of sourcing requirements that does not align with the consensus policy:
Comments by Beland on remedyFor the benefit of administrators trying to decide on a remedy, I can provide a little perspective from having to clean up some articles which have been heavily edited by QuackGuru. I'm afraid a topic ban would simply refocus the problematic behavior on a different topic, as apparently has happened before. A general 0RR would help solve problems like removing content from other editors for bogus reasons (whether immediately or shortly after tagging), mass reverts that throw away useful contributions, excessive arguing over minor wording tweaks like consolidating sentences, and preventing other editors from chipping away at well-referenced but excessive or off-topic details. There is a major problem with "crying wolf" and sometimes nonsensical and self-contradictory arguments trying to look legitimate just to prevent other editors from restoring their own edits (whether rightly or wrongly). Currently overcoming that requires finding a third editor; with a 0RR it would just require reverting. QuackGuru would still have the opportunity to argue for restoration, but if they continue to cry wolf editors will just ignore those arguments rather than being forced to dispute them. I think in the long term this will help QuackGuru prioritize arguments that other editors find convincing. Another possible remedy is simply a ban from editing article pages but not talk pages. Some of the articles I'm cleaning up have a lot of excessive detail and choppy writing that editors are complaining is unreadable, and that wouldn't happen in the first place if it has to be filtered through other editors. To avoid being ignored, QuackGuru would have to learn what type of material is considered quality writing, and would still be able to contribute references and point out problems. This article space ban might mean more work for other editors, at least at first, to find and copy helpful improvements, but it would eliminate the need to come back and un-revert one's own edits every time one edits an article on a topic of interest to QuackGuru. I hope some remedy can be applied. After cleaning up Nicotine pouch I realized despite extensive involvement QuackGuru hadn't removed obvious legitimately spammy content, but had used spamminess as an argument to remove good citations to commercial web sites (documenting claims about what products were for sale in Norway). What QuackGuru has done to ward off commercial entities attempting to spam Wikipedia seems to have been done inconsistently, and doing that actually seems easier for other editors to do compared to cleaning up the piles of bad writing by fighting talk page disputes one sentence at a time. -- Beland (talk) 06:38, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
Question from S MarshallIs this editor ever to be given a decisive and effective sanction? You lot keep coming up with novel remedies to avoid doing something that'll actually work. He's been on his very last chance ever since 2015. It's pathetic. Your endless patience with QG's behaviour equates to a callous disregard for his victims.—S Marshall T/C 10:00, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by WhatamIdoingI've been thinking about this. I don't think there are good solutions. Solutions imply that an editor has a genuine capacity to become a constructive member of the community. Desirable skills in this community include:
You really only need one of these skills. A good copyeditor is always welcome, even if the person does little more than eliminate comma splices or fix idioms. We need people who know that youth are young people , but who won't call the Odds an Odds ratio. We admire editors who can say that they hate tobacco (and I do) and still not blame smoking for climate change (but let me know if you find a good source, 'kay?). We don't expect bot ops to create FAs, and we encourage the anti-spam folks to keep the spammers at bay even if that means never adding content to articles. And while we overlook a lot on the "being nice" front, in the end, if you can't understand the other people in the community, you will end up wasting everyone else's time in needless disputes, and you will screw up articles because you won't correctly understand and interpret the community's policies and guidelines. QuackGuru has none of these skills. I'm thinking it's hopeless, and that what we need in the end is to say thanks for trying, but you aren't cut out to be a good editor, and you never will be. I just replied to one of the RFCs at Hospitalized cases in the vaping lung illness outbreak. It's basically two lists in paragraph form. Here's one bit of the content added by QuackGuru:
Fine, right? Every single sentence is grammatically correct, and every sentence is followed by an inline citation. That's what Wikipedia wants, right? No. That's not really what we want. None of this should have ever been in Wikipedia at all. I really want to dispell the idea that QuackGuru is doing a good job, so we're going to go through this one paragraph (which was not selected for being unusual) in detail:
WP:DUE WEIGHT requires judgment. Quack, as we have proved over (and over and over) just doesn't have enough skill in the "editorial judgment" category to figure out that it's not okay to make a laundry list of every single person with EVALI that you could find via Google News. "All the news that's fit to cite" is not what an encyclopedia is for. It is occasionally okay to give an example of a historically important individual case study. A few cases, such as Patient HM, are WP:Notable; others, such as the case described in the first-ever medical description of a condition or in a novel treatment, are worth mentioning briefly inside other articles. But it's not okay for an encyclopedia to drown in trivia just because it's in this week's news. In terms of remedies, I have little hope.
WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:05, 13 February 2020 (UTC) Statement by TracyMcClarkHow comes that the now proposed remedy is several steps down from the last one when he was topic banned for 6 month? What happened to "Enforcement of restrictions: 0) Should any user subject to a restriction in this case violate that restriction, that user may be blocked, initially for up to one month, and then with blocks increasing in duration to a maximum of one year."?--TMCk (talk) 21:53, 15 February 2020 (UTC) And by the way: He'll easily gets "consensus" on talk with his few but staple enablers from wp:med and and a SPA popping up whenever he needs an edit reversing hand. That's how it's been for many many years. So no, that won't do shit, as usual. Looking forward for another half decade or more of pain and suffering caused by a single editor driving away editors way more valuable than he ever was or could ever be.--TMCk (talk) 23:24, 15 February 2020 (UTC) @:Johnuniq: El_C said: "I have no immediate objection, but I have not reviewed this request since writing the above, so I may not be up to date about everything here. (my bolding). You seem to ignore this and several other comments made by several editors. Statement by SandyGeorgiaI am generally aligned with WhatamIdoing, but feel that, per TracyMcClark's remark about the "enablers", it is time for the unpopular but courageous decision WAID alludes to. My anti-fringe, pro-MEDRS stance aligns with QuackGuru's, but WP:MED has for too long tolerated and enabled misbehavior for the sake of anti-woo. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:16, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by JzGI am going to do a Bad Thing and just include my general commentary without diffs, because there are bundles of diffs above that support this. There are two problems here:
That's a recipe for drama, and, unsurprisingly, drama is the result. The problem is that every area QG edits, seems to have the same issue. From his insistence on adding {{failed verification}} to every statement that doesn't meet his personal interpretation of the source, to his endless stonewalling, to his utter, utter certainty on everything. It has been my view for a long time that it is a matter of when, not if, we show QG the door. I've tried a few times in the past to get some sort of sanction that would reduce the problem and keep him onside, since he's right in so many cases and tirelessly defends against pseudoscience, but that hasn't happened. And frankly that was probably naive anyway. So I agree with Whatamidoing, with great sadness. Guy (help!) 12:24, 19 February 2020 (UTC) Result concerning QuackGuru
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Oldstone James
Oldstone James is blocked for a year as an AE block and then indefinitely as an admin block --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 01:29, 19 February 2020 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Oldstone James
I filed an AN3 and then realized that this is probably not going to work to fix the problems with this user's disruptive tendentiousness at R&I. Enough is enough. This user is a menace to the topic area and needs to be ushered to other more productive fields to work on at Wikipedia. Please extend his topic ban to race and intelligence to see if he can improve. jps (talk) 18:35, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Oldstone JamesStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Oldstone JamesI would be happy to hear how my editing can be improved, without the need of an enforcement. If I've done something wrong, please tell me, and I will surely listen to you. Personally, I don't see how my editing is problematic: I don't edit-war, and I don't push a fringe POV on the talk page. If you think I am doing any of the two things, or that I am engaging in some other type of problematic behaviour, please let me know. But, as of right now, I am bit baffled as to why I, of all editors of the Race and intelligence article, am under consideration of a page ban (or even an indef ban?), aside from the fact that myself and jps haven't historically been on good terms. I believe the problems that exist, if they exist, can be solved by discussion without the need for any additional sanctions, as I am willing to listen to any suggestions as to how my editing strategy can be improved. Also, as per IP editor, please take a look at the proposer's behaviour as well, and particularly at their tendency to edit-war without consensus and unwillingness to collaborate in a civil manner. O̲L̲D̲S̲T̲O̲N̲E̲J̅A̅M̅E̅S̅ 17:28, 17 February 2020 (UTC) Statement by JzGI support this restriction. My impression of Oldstone James' edits has been that they are advancing fringe ideology, and his engagement on the talk page tends towards bludgeooning. Guy (help!) 23:02, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by IP editor@El C: Now that we're here at AE, I think the behavior of the person making this report needs to be examined as well, because it is worse than Oldstone James' behavior is. He has less tendency to edit war than Oldstone James does, but his activity on talk pages is constantly assuming bad faith about other editors, whereas Oldstone James is always civil. Here are a few diffs showing the problem:
Looking at ජපස's block log, he apparently has been sanctioned several times under the "fringe science" arbitration case. Not everyone considers race and intelligence a "fringe" topic, but he indicated in his post here that he personally considers it an example of that. Could you please examine whether ජපස is repeating the type of behavior he's been sanctioned for in the past? He was notified of the discretionary sanctions here, if that matters. 2600:1004:B117:10E5:D530:D014:5920:FA1 (talk) 23:29, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by GrayfellI said at AN/EW that this user was trying to game the system by selectively applying rules and policies. I still think that, but it appears to be unwitting. Oldstone James came very close to a fringe topic ban, and instead of learning from that or adjusting his behavior, he appears to have ignored the whole thing, which is unfortunate. At that AN discussion, Oldstone James said, as part of a very lengthy comment, that " Statement by DlthewaveIt's becoming increasingly clear that Oldstone James is unwilling or unable to acknowledge and correct his behavior. "Just tell me what I'm doing wrong and I'll stop doing it" is a common refrain when one is facing a ban, but his recent comments show that he's been told plenty of times and refuses to listen. He actually argued that OJ has established a pattern of setting special expectations for other editors that he refuses to follow himself. A recurring theme is insisting that editors gain consensus before making major edits, a restriction that is not in place at R&I. For example, I removed an off-topic section from the R&I article on 14 February and opened a discussion when it was challenged. OJ reinstated the content, without participating in the discussion, on 15 February with the edit summary My final concern is a comment made here,
Statement by ජපසI think this very enforcement page shows the problem in stark relief. Oldstone James refuses to listen to anyone who doesn't have the block button (
Statement by (username)Result concerning Oldstone James
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RolandR
This request is not actionable. The filer, Chess, is warned that filing groundless or vexatious enforcement requests is itself grounds for sanction. Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:02, 21 February 2020 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning RolandR
The user has already been warned that this image isn't constructive and has had discretionary sanctions relating to their use of inflammatory images on their userpage before which is why I'm going directly to WP:AE. I'm not sure whether or not the discretionary sanctions imposed by User:Sandstein were meant to apply to this specific image but were never enforced, or whether the discretionary sanctions were only meant to apply to crossed out flags of parties to the Israel-Palestine dispute (this being only a technical violation of that sanction as the crossing out isn't anti-Palestine), but regardless I believe it should be made clear that this image isn't appropriate or helpful to building an encyclopedia and is unnecessarily WP:POLEMIC. I've also notified the administrator who originally imposed the discretionary sanction ([45]). For what it's worth, I disagree with the image's combination with the caption and I believe the best remedy here is removing the image + caption. It contributes nothing to the project and has been brought up numerous times over the past years. The phrase "Let's say louder that we are fighting against those racist Jews who deny human rights to Palestinians, AS WELL AS racists who deny human rights to Jews" is equivocation of Jews with "racists who deny human rights to Jews", the racists being Nazis as evidenced by the image. In response to his second and third points, Sandstein has said "I am therefore formally prohibiting you, acting under the authority of WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions, from using this image or substantially similar ones (i.e., crossed-out flags of countries involved in the Israeli-Arab conflict) in your user space." I am not familiar with Wikilegalese and I'm not going to pretend that I am. However I fully believe that this image needs to be removed from this user page. Whether this is by enforcement of the existing discretionary sanctions or creating an entirely new one doesn't really matter to me; this is a useless, inflammatory, and divisive image/caption that shouldn't be placed front¢re on a user page. The ADL considers it anti-Semitic to make this type of comparison to Nazis so it's reasonable to assume many people editing would also consider this cartoon/caption combo to be anti-Semitic. Heck, I'd be fine with just removing the caption as that's the most inflammatory part at issue here. Regardless a cartoon/caption considered anti-Semitic by the ADL drawn by someone who won second place in the International Holocaust Cartoon Contest isn't appropriate here as it's an obvious WP:POLEMIC. Chess (talk) Ping when replying 15:43, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
Discussion concerning RolandRStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by RolandR1 The cartoon explicitly does not equate Jews with Nazis. It is an image of a Nazi thug, who represents just that - a Nazi thug. The caption states that Palestinians do not need, and do not want, the support of Nazis and antisemites. It is not directed against Jews, Zionists or Israelis, but against a small number of vocal racists who are using pretended support for Palestinian rights as a cover for their visceral hatred of Jews. I am precluded by Wikipedia policies from naming these people, but anyone who is aware of my activity and writing on and off Wikipedia for a long time will know who I am referring to. To see this cartoon as an attack on Jews is to display a remarkable lack of analytical reading skills. 2 I have never been sanctioned, by Sandstein or anyone else, for my use of images. Another image on my user page was indeed removed by Sandstein many years ago, although it is still in use elsewhere on Wikipedia. The image now challenged was already on my userpage at the time, and was not affected by this. This was a standard admin act, and was not performed under any discretionary sanctions provision. Indeed, at the time there were no discretionary sanctions available. 3 The request does not specify which sanction I have breached. Indeed, it cannot do so as I have not breached any. Regardless of any arguments about the nature of this cartoon, it has never been the subject of any statement or ruling under any discretionary sanction. Nor, to the best of my recollection, have I. This request is out of the scope of this page, as it does not relate to any Arb Com remedy or instruction, and it does not relate to any discretionary sanction imposed by an admin under an arbitration decision. The request should therefore be struck out as invalid. RolandR (talk) 09:45, 18 February 2020 (UTC) Statement by HuldraWhaw. Just whaw. Chess are bringing out diffs from the digital stone-age..10-13 years ago.
Statement by ZScarpiaFurther to the points made by Huldra above: the ADL has been presented above in a way implying that it should be regarded as a neutral, disinterested party; consider the tag at the top of the webpage, "Israel advocacy and education." ← ZScarpia 13:04, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning RolandR
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Oldstone James
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Oldstone James (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – O̲L̲D̲S̲T̲O̲N̲E̲J̅A̅M̅E̅S̅ 01:39, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- Year-long block (and subsequent indefinite admin block), imposed at WP:AE#Oldstone_James, logged at [47].
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Guerillero (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- I have copied this appeal from Oldstone James' talk page and have notified Guerillero of this.[48] El_C 02:03, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Oldstone James
- The main reason for my indefinite block is my editing at the article Race and intelligence, as per this statement by the blocking administrator. The specific reason why my editing was disruptive is edit-warring, as per the block summary by El_C.
- Indeed, it has been explained to me by El C that my editing was unacceptable: reverting - whether following WP:BRD or not - is synonymous with edit-warring, and edit-warring is prohibited by WP:EW - especially at such a contentious article as Race and Intelligence; I had indeed made several reverts at the article, and so was duly blocked from editing for a week.
- However, although I now realise that my editing was disruptive, I did not know that at the time of editing: my last sanction was a creationism topic ban imposed 10 months ago, after which several experienced editors, the most vocal of which I recall as being Guy Macon, suggested that I stick to WP:BRD to avoid edit-warring. I had taken this advice to heart, and in the past 10 months, during which I was editing extensively, I had violated WP:BRD only on very select occasions, and even on those rare occasions I had a clear reason for doing so (e.g. re-reverting an obvious misunderstanding/misreading of my edit); on these occasions also, I didn't go beyond one re-revert even a single time. For example, even out of the diffs listen in the AN report] that led to my block, the only edit that violated BRD was a reversion of a clear case of misunderstanding, whereby my edit was originally reverted for being inadvertent, even when it was in fact intentional. Needless to say as well, no bright-line rule such as WP:3RR or the WP:1RR restriction since it was imposed (after which only 1 revert was made) was violated. Now, none of this is an excuse to justify my editing at Race and Intelligence; it was wrong and won't be repeated in the future. However, I honestly thought that I wasn't edit-warring at the time because I simply wasn't told that all reverts not covered by WP:3RRNO are considered acts of edit-warring, and was instead specifically advised to follow the BRD-cycle, so my consequent edit-warring was an example of my genuine misunderstanding and confusion rather than a disregard for the rules or a general disruptive tendency.
- Speaking of a lack of disruptive tendency, I had been editing constructively for 10 months without encountering any problems whatsoever; the only occasion on which my editing was found to be problematic was the one that led to the indefinite block, which was a result of my misunderstanding of the rules. Now, I had received earlier blocks than the one that eventually led to my topic ban 10 months ago, but I was just figuring out how Wikipedia works, with my lack of experience as well as persistence getting me in trouble. I am a totally different editor now, which is reflected by the fact that, despite editing many times a week consistently throughout the past year, I didn't encounter any problems up until now. My last topic ban taught me a lot of things, such as that I should never assume consensus by myself, that I should take to the talk page instead of re-reverting regardless of whether the edit that I don't agree with was part of an edit war or was made without or against consensus, and that a respectful and civil attitude is a key determinant of the community's views on my editing even if the editing itself isn't problematic (that's not to say that the editing that led to my topic ban wasn't problematic).
- In light of all of the above, my proposition is simple: given that I have proven that I can learn from my mistakes and edit constructively, I believe that it is reasonable to give me one last chance and a fragile benefit of the doubt (WP:ROPE), by which I mean allow me to edit but block me indefinitely at the first shadow of a doubt. This will guarantee that my unblock is a net positive for Wikipedia: I will certainly improve many articles, by wikignoming, i.e. fixing punctuational and grammatical errors, if by no other means, and if I somehow disrupt Wikipedia in any way, shape, or form, it will only take a simple user complaint and/or admin click to get me off Wikipedia entirely. Surely, this can't be too bad for the project? O̲L̲D̲S̲T̲O̲N̲E̲J̅A̅M̅E̅S̅ 01:39, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Guerillero
There was a discussion open for 3 days where the only suggestion was an indef block. Several people in the discussion above brought up bludgeoning on the talk page in addition to the edit warring. There was a general sense that Oldstone James was pushing a POV within the topic area of R&I.
I see more introspection in this appeal than the previous draft on their talk page, and that is a positive sign. I would suggest that any unblock come with a topic ban from R&I. --In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 15:57, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Guy Macon
I have had previous disputes with Oldstone James, and am quite familiar with the circumstances that led up to the block. In my considered opinion all sanctions should be lifted. I think that we are going to look back a year from now and be glad that we did. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:00, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- As a second choice, I would support a lifting of the ban combined with a six month topic ban from race and intelligence, creationism, or both. I would advise Oldstone James that if he gets unblocked without the topic ban, he voluntarily avoid those areas for at least six months.
- I do have one concern about a topic ban. Normally an editor with a TB has to completely avoid a topic, but I wouldn't mind an exception that allows him to post questions about the banned topics on my talk page. As I have worked on the various pages listed at WP:YWAB I have occasionally had the experience of someone who opposes what Wikipedia says about a topic correctly identifying flaws or errors in the page. And of course I can always say "stay off my talk page" if things go south...
- A question was raised about mentoring. I do intend to watchlist his talk page and offer advice as needed, but I have no intention of following his edit history looking for trouble. I would really like to see how any such advice is received before making any commitment past that. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:07, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Grayfell
- "
(e.g. re-reverting an obvious misunderstanding/misreading of my edit)
" - Oldstone James's opinion of what's "obvious" is precisely the problem here, so this isn't reassuring. - "
However, I honestly thought that I wasn't edit-warring at the time because I simply wasn't told...
" - Oldstone James was told by several editors, but regardless, Oldstone James' block history shows several missed opportunities to figuring it out without being told. Grayfell (talk) 04:24, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by ජපස
I think there are a few things we need to take into consideration.
- WP:AE is instituted because it is sometimes important to make dramatic action for topics under discretionary sanctions (believe me, I know how this works). Second-guessing an admin who takes an action via WP:AE will undermine this intention, so I think we need to tread very cautiously here if that's what others think we should do.
- I have some sympathy with people who think that OJ might change. I have had that hope as well. However, the user has adopted a level of arrogance that makes him very difficult to work with. For example, consider the conversation I had with him: User_talk:Oldstone_James#jps_discussion_(cont.). OJ simply does not listen to other editors who do not have the WP:PUNITIVE authority over him and continues to argue that he will only listen to admins. He acts as though he is entitled to a detailed explanation of every considered opinion made about his actions, and does not know when to WP:DROPTHESTICK. Time and again, this has been the patterned reaction. I don't think that bodes well.
- In principle, a wikignoming OJ would be fine. But what guarantee do we have right now that he will stick to this? In the past he has promised to steer clear of controversial articles only to wander back. He seems to have a general issue with forgetting about things such as topic bans: User_talk:Oldstone_James#Topic_ban which means there will have to be someone that needs to monitor his work if/when he returns. He also generally does not seem to understand basic rules and ideas on Wikipedia. He was advised to follow WP:BRD, but took this as a license to revert any other editor on sight without so much as a consideration of WP:3RR. He still seems to think that he did not violate WP:3RR, even though he was judged to have done so by an administrator in Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RRArchive403#User:Oldstone_James_reported_by_User:ජපස_(Result:one_week,_partial). I am pretty amazed at the audacity it takes to claim,
I had been editing constructively for 10 months without encountering any problems whatsoever
. This is simply false, he has encountered many problems including a denied topic ban appeal, some admin warnings, and now an AE+indef ban. Crucially: This all happening in the context of a topic where he was warned there were active discretionary sanctions.
So what do we do here? I think we need to encourage OJ to work in a more collaborative fashion outside of the places he is attracted to. Wikicommons, wikisource, even en.simple would, perhaps, be possibilities for him to work within a community and establish some experience to retrain his approach to work better here at en.wp.
jps (talk) 16:13, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by PaleoNeonate
There seems to be an offer by Guy Macon to mentor and a good reception by Oldstone James of the initiative. If Guy makes it a little more official and James engages to retract from a situation when Guy recommends it (versus debating with endless justifications including with Guy), I think that an unblock could be promising. That said, another topic ban may also be difficult to avoid, but that is a reasonable alternative to not being able to edit at all for a year... —PaleoNeonate – 07:21, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Adding: I wasn't sure where to comment, I don't consider myself directly involved but am also active in the topic area and have edited on Race and Intelligence and its talk page recently. —PaleoNeonate – 07:26, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by JzG
My starting point is always the edit counter: [49]. 3789 edits as of right now, an average of less than two per day. I'm not convinced that is enough to earn a pass for the quantity of disruption and argumentation, and Guerillero's block is clearly defensible and proportionate.
A large chunk of OJ's edits are to Answers in Genesis (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and consist of often WP:MANDY-level apologia for creationist pseudoscience, leading to a topic ban. And a lot of the rest appear to promote racist pseudoscience. But let's be charitable. A dual topic ban from creationism and race / intelligence would be OK by me, and see if he can work productively with others outside his hot-button areas. On the other hand, I don't think he's a loss to the project if that doesn't happen. He needs to learn, and quickly, why his edits have been considered problematic. Mandruss is right to note the illusory competence issue here. Guy (help!) 17:03, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Dlthewave
I still have concerns about OJ's characterization of the situation.
- In this appeal:
"Needless to say as well, no bright-line rule such as WP:3RR or the WP:1RR restriction since it was imposed (after which only 1 revert was made) was violated."
and"I had been editing constructively for 10 months without encountering any problems whatsoever; the only occasion on which my editing was found to be problematic was the one that led to the indefinite block, which was a result of my misunderstanding of the rules."
Both of these comments were made while under a partial block for violating 3RR and show that this user does not fully comprehend the problems with their editing. - Also in this appeal:
"if I somehow disrupt Wikipedia in any way, shape, or form, it will only take a simple user complaint and/or admin click to get me off Wikipedia entirely."
This is a common refrain from editors facing an indef and, as evidenced by Oldstone's talk page, blocking an editor doesn't put a swift end to their disruption. Instead, I'm afraid we would see a series of wall-of-text appeals, and the time spent dealing with them would outweigh the benefits of any Wikignoming. - In Oldstone's reply to Guerillero [50]:
"I just want to give a quick overview of the situation at R&I: there currently seem to be two camps; one camp accuses the other of censorship, science denialism and POV pushing, and the other camp accuses the other party of racism, promotion of pseudoscience, and POV pushing. The two camps are roughly equal in numbers, with a slight numerical majority of editors being on the former camp (which I am on). You can get a very nice overview of the opinions and size of these two groups of editors here or, perhaps less clearly, here. Either way, it is far from unanimous that my editing constituted POV pushing."
This statement takes a battleground view of the dispute and implies that the number of editors on each "side" matters. We need to be talking about the merits of each position in accordance with policies and guidelines, not counting how many editors are accusing whom of what. This is not an attitude that is conducive to collegial editing.
Oldstone seems to be working towards a better understanding of BRD but I don't think this is sufficient to continue editing at R&I. This editor needs a topic ban at the very least. –dlthewave ☎ 17:38, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 5)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Oldstone James
I was involved in none of the article activity that led to the indef, so take my comments with a small grain of salt.
What I see is a guy who perhaps has failed to grasp the extent of what he has yet to learn about Wikipedia editing, and so has overestimated his competence level. This, in turn, resulted in an overly-aggressive approach to the editing process. This is a fairly common failing, and he is only 20 years old if his UP is to be believed. We have to be prepared to show some tolerance for this in 20-year-olds or institute a 30-year age minimum (which would reduce the problem but not eliminate it).
This points to the serious flaw in the current culture, which tolerates a large degree of aggressiveness, even abusiveness, when one is in the right, while we always believe we're in the right.
OJ was very cooperative when I approached him about his signature, and this was in stark contrast to the hostile, entitled, and self-occupied reactions I have received from many editors. Taking his comments here at face value, he gives every indication that he gets it and is willing to learn. His appeal lacks the defensiveness, persecution complex, and accusations of corruption that are so common in appeals (those are core-personality indicators that tell me an editor is probably beyond help). If we dismiss that because of the context, I don't know how an appeal could ever be successful, and we might as well get rid of that due process as a waste of time. He does have some history of behavior issues, but that's true in all cases of appealed indefs.
I generally feel we are too tolerant of chronic disrupters, but this may be a case where we have erred in the opposite direction. Maybe I'm too late, but a temporary topic ban would've seemed more appropriate to me. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:19, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Mr Ernie
I reviewed the circumstances leading up the block, as well as what took place shortly after, and find the block to be absurdly strict. Additionally, Guerillero has made no attempt to provide any sort of meaningful feedback about the block when requested. I would overturn the block. Mr Ernie (talk) 08:01, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by Oldstone James
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I could support supplanting the block with a broadly construed topic ban in the ARBR&I topic area, per WP:ROPE. El_C 16:38, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
-
- @Black Kite: I'm not sure that I agree with your assessment. I think multiple topic bans could actually do the trick. It's a sizable enough 'pedia that Oldstone James could happily edit with those restrictions in place without needing to violate them at any point. El_C 03:42, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
- I think you would need a broadly construed Creationism topic ban as well. That's why I supported a block to begin with; when you need to apply more than one topic ban, you have to consider how much of a positive the editor actually is. Black Kite (talk) 18:26, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Zarcademan123456
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Zarcademan123456
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Huldra (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:14, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Zarcademan123456 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel articles :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Zarcademan123456 changes confiscated --> expropriated in countless West Bank villages/towns, in spite of the fact that the source (=ARIJ) says "confiscated". Examples:
- 09:40, 22 February 2020 change confiscated --> expropriated
- 09:44, 22 February 2020 change confiscated --> expropriated
- 21:14, 22 February 2020 After s/he is told to stop, s/he continues with edit-line: "according to google "confiscate" means the action of taking or seizing someone's property with authority; seizure. "a court ordered the confiscation of her property" "expropriation" means the action by the state or an authority of taking property from its owner for public use or benefit. "the decree provided for the expropriation of church land and buildings" by using "confiscation" instead on "expropriation" is a bias that denies Israel its legitimacy as a state"
- 22:37, 22 February 2020 edit line: "(put the word "confiscate" in quotations because of the loaded political connotations (the accepted term is "expropriations", as noted in the wikipedia page land expropriations in the West Bank)"
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- blocked 22 December 2019 with an expiration time of 72 hours (account creation blocked) (Disruptive editing)
- blocked 28 December 2019 with an expiration time of 2 weeks (account creation blocked) (Disruptive editing)
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Alerted, 28 August 2019
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Comment: I understand that Zarcademan123456 does not like the word "confiscated" (According to Zarcademan123456: "by using "confiscation" instead on "expropriation" is a bias that denies Israel its legitimacy as a state")
- Nevertheless, the source (=ARIJ) use the word "confiscated", when Zarcademan123456 changes "confiscated" to "expropriation" over lots of West Bank villages/towns, without any source, then they are being highly disruptive, IMO. We cannot go around changing things in the IP area just because WP:IDON'TLIKEIT, Huldra (talk) 23:14, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
- It is interesting that some editors here claim that "confiscated" is equal to "expropriated", when Zarcademan123456 explicitly have stated multiple times that they consider them unequal, and that "confiscated" is implies a more critical attitude to Israel than "expropriated", and that is the reason why they change the words in dozens of articles. (See my diffs above, and Zero0000's diffs below.)
- If we all are allowed to change words according to "what we like", then that will open for complete anarchy in the I/P area, Huldra (talk) 20:33, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Zarcademan123456
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Zarcademan123456
first of all, if this is the wrong place to post this i apologize. while i continue to disagree with the term "confiscate" Nableezy is absolutely correct...the occupation (I prefer disputed territories, but one must pick one's battles, lol) began during the war, not afterZarcademan123456 (talk) 23:46, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Nableezy
Besides these edits, the user has introduced factual errors in a huge number of article. For example, this is just false. The occupation began during the war not after, and the reason for the change is to not include that the territory remains occupied. The user has been doing this to every article about a village or settlement in the West Bank, and cleaning up after his or her edits is becoming less of a joy, especially as he or she persists without offering even the semblance of discussion. nableezy - 23:42, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
- Well I take that back, the user responded on my talk page just now. So forget my comment here. nableezy - 23:43, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Number 57
- I see no problem with the word 'expropriate'; it's more commonly used for government intervention, as is the case here. Bringing someone to WP:AE over semantics like this is a bit much. We do not have to use the exact same words as sources if there are appropriate (or more appropriate as may be the case here) synonyms, although I seem to recall that this point has fallen on deaf ears when made to the complainant previously. Number 57 01:08, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Levivich
ARIJ might use the word confiscate, but they’re not the only source, and confiscate is definitely not the word used by the consensus of sources. I would provide links and examples to back that up, but this is so obviously a content dispute and thus not appropriate for determination at AE. Levivich (Talk) 01:14, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Also worth noting that Huldra is the editor who added “confiscate” to all these articles in the first place, and if you look at the articles’ histories, you can see various attempts to change it, combined with the usual edit warring we see in almost all PIA articles. And, as always, it’s very difficult to say definitely that one side in the edit war is right or wrong (not unlike the actual war). I don’t envy admin asked to regulate in these situations. How do we get PIA editors (on all sides) to edit collaboratively instead of this constant battleground? Levivich (Talk) 04:18, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000
It is obvious that AE is not the right place to decide whether "confiscate" or "expropriate" is the best word in this circumstance. However, it is highly relevant to AE that Zarcademan123456 gave an explicitly political reason for going against the source on many occasions [51] [52] [53] [54]. This is disruptive editing. Zarcademan123456 must learn to seek consensus before undertaking changes to multiple articles that are likely to be disputed. Zerotalk 02:13, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Levevich wrote "Also worth noting that Huldra is the editor who added “confiscate” to all these articles in the first place". Wow, Huldra used the same word that the source uses! Multiple times even! I'm shocked to the core. Zerotalk 08:49, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by ZScarpia
By the look of it, the case turns upon the following behavioural issues:
- Edit warring: whether Zarcademan123456 carried on repeating the same change in multiple articles after the point they should have realised there was significant opposition.
- Misrepresentation of cited sources: substituting a term with a different meaning to the cited sources.
With regard to the latter, it has been asserted above that the terms "confiscation" and "expropriation" are equivalent. Sources such as [55] and [56] point out that there are important differences: both involve a change in ownership, but, with expropriation, compensation is usually paid and it is not necessarily carried out against the wishes of the original owner.
← ZScarpia 11:34, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by selfstudier
I have noticed that this editor has a habit of making edits based on his own personal opinion rather than on sources; I mentioned that to him a couple times recently on his talk page. I have been nevertheless assuming good faith on his part up to now.Selfstudier (talk) 11:38, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by (other user)
Result concerning Zarcademan123456
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I guess the core question here is this: is Zarcademan123456 edit-warring or editing in defiance of consensus. The OP does not provide evidence of this. Guy (help!) 02:08, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
- This appears to be a content dispute. We often paraphrase sources rather than quoting them exactly, and the best way to do that is a content decision. It is not up to AE to decide what wording an article should use. If the two here can't come to an agreement, an RfC may be the way forward. Seraphimblade Talk to me 21:10, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
- The editor has used language in edit summaries about 'deligitimization of the state of Israel' that appear to be pro-Israeli. In other words, the editor is showing they don't intend to edit neutrally. Though the actual change of 'confiscate' to 'expropriate' might be a matter of word choice, the reasons for the change seem to be to promote the Israeli view of these activities. The legitimacy of the state of Israel is not a matter for our articles to resolve or for Wikipedia to have an opinion on. EdJohnston (talk) 03:40, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
Mbsyl
Mbysl blocked one month for repeated topic ban violations. Seraphimblade Talk to me 05:55, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Mbsyl
The attacker was recently found guilty on all counts. The victims were never, as far as I know, credibly accused of any crime related to this attack.
Notifed at 01:00, 24 February 2020
Discussion concerning MbsylStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by MbsylStatement by (username)Result concerning Mbsyl
|