Seraphimblade (talk | contribs) →Result concerning Plot Spoiler: Noticed that too. |
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*Am I the only one who is rather disturbed that the vast majority of AE cases we have recently involves ARBPIA? [[User:Timotheus Canens|T. Canens]] ([[User talk:Timotheus Canens|talk]]) 05:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC) |
*Am I the only one who is rather disturbed that the vast majority of AE cases we have recently involves ARBPIA? [[User:Timotheus Canens|T. Canens]] ([[User talk:Timotheus Canens|talk]]) 05:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC) |
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*:The thought crossed my mind as well. [[User:The Blade of the Northern Lights|The Blade of the Northern Lights]] ([[User talk:The Blade of the Northern Lights|<font face="MS Mincho" color="black">話して下さい</font>]]) 13:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC) |
*:The thought crossed my mind as well. [[User:The Blade of the Northern Lights|The Blade of the Northern Lights]] ([[User talk:The Blade of the Northern Lights|<font face="MS Mincho" color="black">話して下さい</font>]]) 13:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC) |
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*:And me three. I'm not overly fond of the thought of [[WP:ARBPIA3]] turning blue, but if this continues, it might be necessary nonetheless. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 14:18, 26 July 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 14:18, 26 July 2012
Shuki
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Shuki
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:35, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Shuki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 22 July 2012 Shuki's posting on my talk page discussing an ARBPIA sanction. Shuki's topic ban prohibits discussing ARBPIA-covered matters in any namespace and in any way.
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Topic banned from ARBPIA in all namespaces: AE report resulting in Shuki's ban
- Warned on 6 April 2012 by WGFinley (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) of imposition of the topic ban.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
As Shuki is directly questioning my judgment, I do not feel it ideal for me to take administrative action without review by others. However, I believe this is a straightforward violation of Shuki's topic ban against discussion of ARBPIA matters in any namespace, as Shuki was clearly discussing an ARBPIA case. I therefore request review here, and recuse from any decisions on administrative sanctions in this matter. I also accept reviews and judgments from my peers of my own statements in the Dailycare/JJG request, regardless of what findings may be made in regards to Shuki. Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:35, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
- As a quick note to those feeling that a warning should've been applicable here as I suggested above, I disagree. I believe there's a significant difference between an editor just warned of the sanctions who clearly made an honest mistake (and to be precise, failed to correct a mistake already present), and an editor clearly notified of a topic ban and clearly editing in defiance of it repeatedly. The idea of a topic ban is not to continually see how close one can edge up to the line of the banned area, and that will inevitably result in crossing that line anyway. Rather, it means that editor's behavior in that area has been found to be a net negative, and they've been asked to stay away completely from that topic or area. The topic ban is, in essence, the final warning—fail to stay away from the banned area, and you'll be asked to stay away from the project altogether. Shuki, I see nothing ambiguous about the notice you were given—no editing or discussing ARBPIA matters anywhere on the project, period. Seraphimblade Talk to me 09:00, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
- Shuki, if I thought the notice you were given regarding the topic ban was ambiguous or unclear, I'd be inclined to agree. I reread it, though, and I'm just not seeing it: "This notice is to inform that you are you banned from all articles, discussions, and other content related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed across all namespaces indefinitely per this AE report. Violations of this ban will result in blocks, more information about topic bans can be found at WP:TBAN." (emphasis added) WP:TBAN, linked from there, states as a part of a restriction that a topic-banned editor may not participate in "discussions or suggestions about (the topic banned from) anywhere on Wikipedia..." Could you please clarify how you misinterpreted those to think you were allowed to discuss ARBPIA enforcement decisions (except of course in your own defense, as you're doing here)? Seraphimblade Talk to me 14:01, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Shuki
Statement by Shuki
Seraphimblade, I don't think I have to add anything more to the blatant double standard Biosketch pointed out you have for me and Dailycare, an experienced editor in I-P who you nonetheless suggested be given the benefit of the doubt, twice. Yes, a simple warning to me might have been AGF instead of running straight for AE. Filing an AE is a bit annoying , so you must have had something in for me to not even bother to ask I retract my message to you. I was thinking of emailing you privately, but as opposed to others who carry out backroom exchanges, and I think as most admins and WP prefers, I kept it in the open. Your reply to me on your talk page shows that you don't know if the ban applies to comments on your talk page, but you'll file the AE anyway and ask questions later. This is quite battleground and non-becoming of an admin who regularly judges on AE.
TC, I'm glad to see you showed up here as well with your expected opinion. As for the diffs that Zscarpia brought up, A) if they are pertinent here, then you should officially add them to the accusation, and be a party to the AE as well so others could openly judge for themselves and B) it is not surprising that editors on 'my side' are required to search and bring forth evidence of issues but you actually go to other unrelated pages to help the case here (do you have other editors pages watchlisted??). I do not recall you ever bringing forth external 'evidence' for anyone pro-Israel but rather giving them 400 words or less to state their side. Zscarpia did not post here, but you took the initiative to go see how hard you can throw the book at me. This is highly suspicious and irregular. C) And if my edits at Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu (not I-P related) and Majdi Halabi (a missing Druze soldier not yet related to I-P conflict), then please do objectiveness a favour and bring them up in the open for discussion of people who might be able to add something else. Besides the talk page message where I brought up that Nishidani mentioned me without the courtesy of apologizing (merely strikeout? Why not delete and apologize), my editing over the past three months has been fine and non-controversial. Frankly, I do not view posting on an admin's talk page as violating the ban and even when construed broadly. An admin's talk page is 'ex-territorial' and the discussion did not even start. --Shuki (talk) 22:45, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
- reply to Seraphimblade 09:00, 24 July 2012. It is very misleading to claim that I am clearly editing in defiance of it (topic ban) repeatedly and that I continually see how close one can edge up to the line. The ARBPIA topic ban is about I-P articles and discussions as well as the techincal areas surrounding this like namespaces. You brought up one issue here - my post on your (an admin) talk page. I have already stated that I think it is not included in the topic ban and is a better replacement then some secret email. You have not referred to that issue in your recent reply here, I think that you should reply on topic. If AE and wikipedia policy objectively deems this (my request on admin talk page) a violation of the topic ban, then I accept that judgement.
- I think that another statement you made about me is clearly prejudiced and not representative of me at all for the almost seven years with the WP project - with regard to editor's behavior in that area has been found to be a net negative, it is only fair that before you make such a comment, you actually review my extensive contributions to WP which includes over 150 new articles and cats, extensive improvement of many other articles, including over 3000 unique articles, as well as other administrative work like cat sorting, deletion discussions, and copy-editing, most but not all related to Israel. Is Shuki really 'net negative'?
- If there are other pertinent issues about allegations of violating the I-P topic ban, it is only fair for you to bring them up in the open so it is clear to all what the issues are. FWIW, in the past, it was made clear that editing Israel-related articles is not a violation of the I-P tban. If that has changed, ARBPIA should be updated. --Shuki (talk) 10:16, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
- This is a past recommendation by T Canens to me: You may edit articles unrelated to the A-I conflict, provided that your edit is also unrelated to the conflict. T. Canens (talk) 12:14, 5 June 2011 (UTC) My edit at Majdi was to remove a nonRS, and my edits at Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu was an expansion and update. --Shuki (talk) 21:01, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
- Nableezy, I am surprised and also very appreciative of your compassionate message here in my defense. No matter what will be decided, I hope this is a good sign of kinder, gentler I-P area. I'm sure you understand why I had to come out hard here since virtually no one wants to show visual support in what seems like a predetermined decision anyway and this is turning out to be a non-explanatory vp:vote instead of something about the actual tban.
- Heimstern, I'm still very disappointed that there is no actual discussion here about why/how/if I've violated the ban on any of the edits, given the advice that T Canens himself gave me but rather the fact that I have raised criticism. Nonetheless, I'll save you the ink and take a voluntary two week abstention from WP. Whether you feel that this should be longer or not, I kindly request that any further comments be beneficial to the ARBPIA under which this was brought up. --Shuki (talk) 07:55, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Shuki
- Biosketch
Seraph, in the AE case directly above this one you said, "The correct thing to do in such a situation would've been to bring that to Dailycare's attention, not to run straight for AE." Indeed, the correct thing to do in a situation when an editor has a momentary lapse of judgment, as Dailycare and Shuki may both have had, is to bring the matter to their attention rather than race to file a retaliatory AE and escalate the situation rather than resolve it discreetly. You're an Admin. Explain to Shuki that he shouldn't be discussing I/P-related issues. If he subsequently reverts his edit on your Talk page, you should withdraw this Request.—Biosketch (talk) 04:10, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
- Biosketch is right, there isnt a point to "punishment" here. Just tell Shuki to stop discussing the topic area, full stop. Shuki, if you want to appeal your ban then do that, but until then you need to understand the scope of the ban. Dont talk about anything related to the topic area anywhere on Wikipedia (and being combative here is never going to help). Thats all that needs to be said. AE doesnt have to be this way, you dont have to use the biggest hammer you have. A light tap on the shoulder will be more effective in "preventing" future issues than a fist to the face. There are times, and people, that merit some consequential administrative response. This is not one of them. nableezy - 06:10, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- I concur with Biosketch and Nableezy's request for clemency, though I disagree with their arguments. Seraph's point of indictment is correct, and the now meme-ish rehearsals of TC's putative bias are beginning to look bad, whatever the reason. It doesn't help that any one judgement is being measured for coherence against judgements made against 'adversaries', rather than in terms of its intrinsic merits. Dailycare's case is quite distinct from Shuki's, because these two edits patently violate the topic ban (a) Shmuel Eliyahu and (b) Majdi Halabi. In both cases however Shuki was under the impression he was only adding information relevant to those people as Israelis ('it was made clear that editing Israel-related articles is not a violation of the I-P tban,'). From ground level, there's a huge amount of empirical evidence for my impression that many editors do not trouble to read the whole page before adding in some item from an article they have just read, which looks, in context, neutral, and I think this must be what caused Shuki's oversight. Since Seraphimblade didn't mention them, and Scarpia (who rightly did nothing) only mentioned the fact on my page (and I myself just advised him to be careful), I suppose they are not relevant to the original indictment. If they are, then perhaps Shuki could just be reminded strongly that 'Israeli-related pages' that happen to also mention Palestinians in a conflict context (Shmuel Eliyahu, Majdi Halabi) are strictly off-limits, and that he, like the rest of us, should desist from the meme of insinuating that admins whose judgement one dislikes are ipso facto, biased. All judgements here are collegial, in the end, and endless chipping away at this or that member of the jury's reliability is counterproductive, aside from poisoning the well. I can say this because both TC and Seraph backed my own recent ban (which I deserved), and, though I might question its nuances, their judgement struck me as serene and disinterested.Nishidani (talk) 10:12, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- And, Shuki, since you were offended (unknown to me) by my confusion of you with User:Shrike, I apologize for the, thanks to Nableezy's lynx-eyed examination, momentary error. No malice intended, just old eyes, haste and old age. Nishidani (talk) 10:25, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Result concerning Shuki
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- Seems like a pretty flagrant violation of the topic ban. Given the somewhat unusual block log of Shuki, I'm not sure about a block length, but probably extended. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 06:21, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
- ZScarpia (talk · contribs) documented a few other violations here. The block log is a bit unusual but the ARBPIA sanctions log has 8 entries on him counting the 6-month block. A block sounds appropriate.
Just for the record, I emailed arbcom about the JJG topic ban after I closed the thread (as it happens, I was informed that JJG did so as well), and they see no problem with it. Under these circumstances, I don't think it necessary or appropriate to recuse. T. Canens (talk) 06:34, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
- Clear violation (violations, if the ZScarpia ones are included), and what looks to me like a smokescreen attempt portray admins dealing with the situation as biased. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 15:05, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
- Regardless of intention, I find the suggestion of involvement unsustainable. And regardless, the involvement of Seraphimblade is not the point here, whether or not Shuki violated the topic ban is, so I have a rather hard time assuming there is a good faith reason for bringing it up. All of that aside, there seems to be agreement here that Shuki has violated the ban and should be blocked. Given the length of time since the last block log entry, I'd think a shorter block, maybe a week would be reasonable, but will wait to hear what others think. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 05:56, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- I'm fine with a week. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:41, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- Fine with me too. T. Canens (talk) 05:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- Regardless of intention, I find the suggestion of involvement unsustainable. And regardless, the involvement of Seraphimblade is not the point here, whether or not Shuki violated the topic ban is, so I have a rather hard time assuming there is a good faith reason for bringing it up. All of that aside, there seems to be agreement here that Shuki has violated the ban and should be blocked. Given the length of time since the last block log entry, I'd think a shorter block, maybe a week would be reasonable, but will wait to hear what others think. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 05:56, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Plot Spoiler
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Plot Spoiler
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Nableezy 04:38, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Plot Spoiler (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 26 July long term edit warring without discussion, see below.
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Notified of the case by Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) on 6 April 2010
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Plot Spoiler has been, for several months now, repeatedly removing material from the lead of an article without making any comment on the talk page. He has removed this sentence the following times:
And then again today (listed above). The user has exactly 0 edits to the talk page (see here)
The specific material was first added in June 2011, and discussed on the talk page at the time (see here). The user was directed to that talk page discussion following one of his other reverts, also involving this same sentence (see this edit summary). And there is in fact a discussion on the talk page right now that, among discussing the actual sentence, notes that the editor has yet to make a single comment on the talk page, despite repeated edit-warring. The material was unchallenged between June 2011 and this editors first revert at the end of December 2011. Since then, in what I can only describe as tag-team edit warring, it has been on occasion removed, with not one single editor having discussed its removal prior to my opening a section on the talk page on 23 July. It is unreasonable for people to have to debate the air as a user uses his 1 revert and leaves. At the very least, a restriction requiring the user explain and back up his reverts should be imposed, barring an article or topic ban. nableezy - 04:38, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- Ankh, the material you claim that somebody has "glossed" over is completely irrelevant to the topic of the article. Kindly try to stay on topic here. The use of "several" was discussed on the talk page at the time the material was added, something that you, up until making one glib comment yesterday, and Plot Spolier had never done. nableezy - 13:27, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
@admins, I am sorry if you have ARBPIA fatigue. I dont know what you would have me do about that, other than not bringing such blatantly disruptive actions as long-term edit-warring and game playing to AE. nableezy - 14:05, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Plot Spoiler
Statement by Plot Spoiler
Comments by others about the request concerning Plot Spoiler
- Diff 1 and diff 3 removed the sentence "Several UN officials have said that Israel's actions are tantamount to apartheid and ethnic cleansing". This was agreed to be misrepresentative and Nishidani here specified that in fact it referred "two UN human right consultants".
- Diff 2 is of no relevance and seems a 'padding' diff.
- Diff 4 makes the valid point regarding well-poising and the stuffing in the lead of marginal views of two insignificant people to create an unbalanced picture. Currently the lead makes no mention of the EU's view, the UN's view but instead Nableezy is insistent that it specifically contains the view of these two human right consultants that are already mentioned later in the article. Despite my request for balance, he chooses to gloss over that the source he cites also states,"
"Dugard was appointed in 2001 as an unpaid expert by the now-defunct UN Human Rights Commission to investigate only violations by the Israeli side, prompting Israel and the US to dismiss his reports as one-sided." and that "Israel's UN Ambassador in Geneva slammed Dugard's analysis."The common link between al-Qaeda and the Palestinian terrorists is that both intentionally target civilians with the mere purpose to kill,""
Can Nableezy please explain:
- Why the view of two UN human rights consultants are more lead worthy than the EU's or the official UN view?
- Does he thinks "several UN officials" accurately describes two human rights consultants?
This is a serious breach in NPOV and an experienced editor should know that inserting sound bytes which mention the words "Israel", "apartheid" and "ethnic cleansing" into the lead of an article should be done in a very careful and balanced way and the presentation of the views of these two human right consultants was hardly that. Ankh.Morpork 11:46, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- I'd prefer not to waste my time on being drawn into this. But you are making this into a content dispute. It is a behavioural dispute, and (to reply to TCanens) there is specifically a problem in the use of 1R as an entitlement without the burden of doing some work to explain one's behaviour on the relevant section of the talk pages. That is the crux ARBPIA hasn't resolved, and concerns the creation of workable conditions in a work-hostile area. Both Nableezy and I and some others collegially spend a perhaps inordinate amount of time on talk pages (48 edits building that page) endeavouring to find common ground, or justify edits (84 edits). In this case a rapid sequence of reverts by User:Plot Spoiler, User:Noon, User:Brewcrewer took place after you challenged a piece of information in the lead, and I corrected it and named the two distinguished international jurists, John Dugard and Richard Falk, who held that view. Leads summarise sections, and they are in the sections, with others. The rapid mass reversion is commonplace, as is the fact that, save Brewcrewer, none of the reverters has deigned to explain their view on the talk page. This is not collegial. None of you appear to have contributed to the page either. You are all active in reverting on it. So please keep your comments, if any, focused not on the content you dispute, but the behavioural patterns, if any.Nishidani (talk) 13:23, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- "as is the fact that, save Brewcrewer, none of the reverters has deigned to explain their view on the talk page." False. I did explain my objection on the talk page. And as to your 'content dispute' obfuscation, the sentence in question was patently unbalanced and did not require a treatise to explain why that was the case. Neither of you have explained why your edit was not a gross breach of NPOV and
- Why you consider the views of two UN human rights consultants are more lead worthy than the EU's or the official UN view?
- Whether you think "several UN officials" accurately describes two human rights consultants?
Ankh.Morpork 13:28, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Result concerning Plot Spoiler
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- Am I the only one who is rather disturbed that the vast majority of AE cases we have recently involves ARBPIA? T. Canens (talk) 05:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- The thought crossed my mind as well. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 13:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- And me three. I'm not overly fond of the thought of WP:ARBPIA3 turning blue, but if this continues, it might be necessary nonetheless. Seraphimblade Talk to me 14:18, 26 July 2012 (UTC)