NuclearWarfare (talk | contribs) m →Appeal Six Day War Ban: header |
NuclearWarfare (talk | contribs) |
||
Line 751: | Line 751: | ||
===Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by [[User:JRHammond]] === |
===Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by [[User:JRHammond]] === |
||
{{hat|1=Gatoclass will not be the sole person to close this appeal; it will be done by consensus among admins if we are to overturn the ban. Gatoclass' request is simply a request that other admins are not bound by, though they may choose to if they so wish. As for your larger concerns about Gatoclass' actions as an administrator, that is not for here, but for [[WP:RFC/U]]. '''<font color="navy">[[User:NuclearWarfare|NW]]</font>''' ''(<font color="green">[[User talk:NuclearWarfare|Talk]]</font>)'' 11:41, 6 September 2010 (UTC)}} |
|||
*So this is going to come across pretty mean to Gatoclass and it isn't meant to. He has been involved in essentially policing and commenting in the topic area for some time now. He has not done very well as an admin when it comes to taking care of what needs to be taken care of in my opinion. No offense meant at all since it is something you volunteer to do that is not expected to get any love out of. WGFinley has come in and started cleaning house. This has been to the point that I even said he could have gone about it a little nicer. However, we need an admin that will do that. The indefinite block was a little much but a lengthily break is totally necessary. Gatoclass has proven that he cannot make the tough decisions in this topic area so "''I'd appreciate it if this appeal was not closed until I have had a chance to complete my review.''" shouldn't mean much. His opinion is of course more than welcome but more than one admin seeing a problem should not be overridden by another admin who has previously made decisions that negatively impacted the topic area.[[User:Cptnono|Cptnono]] ([[User talk:Cptnono|talk]]) 09:40, 6 September 2010 (UTC) |
*So this is going to come across pretty mean to Gatoclass and it isn't meant to. He has been involved in essentially policing and commenting in the topic area for some time now. He has not done very well as an admin when it comes to taking care of what needs to be taken care of in my opinion. No offense meant at all since it is something you volunteer to do that is not expected to get any love out of. WGFinley has come in and started cleaning house. This has been to the point that I even said he could have gone about it a little nicer. However, we need an admin that will do that. The indefinite block was a little much but a lengthily break is totally necessary. Gatoclass has proven that he cannot make the tough decisions in this topic area so "''I'd appreciate it if this appeal was not closed until I have had a chance to complete my review.''" shouldn't mean much. His opinion is of course more than welcome but more than one admin seeing a problem should not be overridden by another admin who has previously made decisions that negatively impacted the topic area.[[User:Cptnono|Cptnono]] ([[User talk:Cptnono|talk]]) 09:40, 6 September 2010 (UTC) |
||
{{hab}} |
|||
====Statement by Gatoclass==== |
====Statement by Gatoclass==== |
Revision as of 11:41, 6 September 2010
Nishidani
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Nishidani
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Nishidani (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- [1]
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [2] Commenting on I/P related topic
- [3] Commenting on I/P related topic
- [4] Commenting on I/P related topic
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
Not applicable.
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- block
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Nishidani violated his topic ban, and it is not first time already. Please enforse the sunctions.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- diff link
Discussion concerning Nishidani
Statement by Nishidani
Okay. Despite my desire to ignore this, after this edit, which rehashes Cptnono's point, and which was quickly elided and replaced by this below, the plaintiff Broccoli appears to insinuate, by the rhetorical device of a mischievous query without basis in what Roland wrote, that Roland is charging Mr Wales with a '"racially-motivated abuse" towards Peter Cohen. Since Roland spoke on my behalf, I feel obliged to reciprocate the courtesy. Roland, like Peter, and myself, is alluding to a very complex history of interactions with Einsteindonut, who in 2008 questioned Peter's ethnicity, and went on to smear him, as did the JIDF organization, and DA, whom most presume on good grounds to be Einsteindonut's lumpenavatar. Roland's words are directed to this, not to Mr Wales.
As a matter of curiosity, you have made 1200 edits in nearly 3 years. We have, I believe, never edited the same pages. Never crossed paths. Why this sudden focus on three remarks made, among hundreds by dozens of editors, which I happened to make in defence of a Jewish editor's integrity and reputation on wikipedia, one a rather humorously ironic joust at a person who caused immense disruption, and outside of wikipedia, would have deserved stronger language?
When I said I would defend Peter even if in doing so, I was 'risking' an extension of my I/P ban, I was not referring to the Arbcom decision. I was referring to the fact that, from experience, I am tracked and trailed from edit to edit, and 'dobbed in' or 'grassed' if there is even the slightest possibility my words might well be maliciously twisted so that they could seem to allude, by any stretch of the imagination, to Israel and Palestine. I.e. I knew that in defending a Jewish person, there was the strong likelihood that someone out there who enjoys pettifogging might slip into that faulty syllogism which runs:'Ah, Nishidani spoke about (on behalf of) Jews. Israel is Jewish, (at least 80% of it). Arbcom ruled he cannot touch anything regarding Israel. Anything Jewish is Israeli, ergo, gotcha!'. This is the way Cptono thinks, and you repeat it.
If the Arbcom decision effectively marries this antic proposal, then I can't defend the Peter Cohens or Rolands of Wikipedia against the kind of smears, often about their ethnicity, they are frequently subject to. The source of this operation (the smearing of Peter Cohen) was a one-man American agitprop operation, that smears Jews. I thought long and hard before intervening in that DA thread because I took to heart the wise caution last month directed my way by Malik Shabazz. Mr Wales, as I see it, stepped into a very complex story without knowing the background, and I thought it my duty to speak up in those terms whatever the consequences, in the mind of those who lurk for fishing opportunities to run to the cops, precisely because many editors are unfamiliar with the details.
For the record, though subject over the years, as my archives show, to repeated attacks calling me all names from anti-Semite to Jew-basher to Israel-hater, I have never once referred those editors to Arbcom. I think this tells something on behalf of my bona fides, whatever the specious diffs of my shortlist of sanctions may appear to suggest. I can understand why appeal for sanctions is sometimes required in order to remove obstinate POV-warriors and make editing easier, but I don't personally subscribe to it, because esp. in the I/P area all recourse to wikilaw, rather than patient discussion, lends itself to manipulation and gaming. In fact the I/P area cannot be edited seriously because it optimizes rallying the numbers to determine content, warring and temptations to use administrative fiats to out editors. Being banned from it, objectively, was a relief, though it saddens me to see that nothing has changed. Tutto qua.Nishidani (talk) 17:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- Conflict of interest. I am related to Cohens, though I have never met Peter. The fact he is a Cohen no doubt plays a minor role in my motivation to see he gets the respect that is his due, but it's generally a matter of being brought up among postwar refugees from Nazism and Stalinism, and learning the lesson very early that even a small mental twitch of ethnic unease, or discrimination of any variety, class or cultural, in someone must set one on guard.Nishidani (talk) 17:30, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Nishidani
- The second diff does not work. The other two do not relate to editing in the IP area, but to defending an editor facing apparently racially-motivated abuse. This complaint is without foundation. RolandR (talk) 20:02, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- Except for a reference to Masada2000's S.H.I.T. List ("Self-Hating and/or Israel-Threatening"), I don't see anything that could be interpreted as related to Israel or Palestine. Agree with Roland that there's no basis for this complaint. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- The timestamp of the second diff seems to indicate this edit is the one being referred to. The relevant sanction says, and I quote directly, "He is prohibited from editing any article in the area of conflict, commenting on any talk page attached to such an article, or participating in any community discussion substantially concerned with such articles." If the sanction was intended to ensure that the individual refrain from even discussing matters at ANI, which all three links are to, then perhaps enforcement is justified. Having said that, I am not myself convinced that it is necessarily a good idea to sanction someone for discussing a community ban, which seems to be what all three posts related to. I believe it would send a very bad message to the community. John Carter (talk) 20:16, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- Even if the sanction did preclude Nishidani from commenting on ANI community ban Discussions (and I don't believe it does), his edits referred to above would not be covered. They have absolutely nothing to do with Israel or Palestine, and everything to do with defending a Jewish editor from racially-motivated hostility. RolandR (talk) 20:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- Well, user:Mbz1 was blocked for 48 hours for this edit. The edit was made on AE, and had absolutely nothing to do with I/P conflict area. Not to block user:Nishidani for a much worse topic ban violation would be unjustifiable. Broccoli (talk) 22:26, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- Do you understand that Mbz1 was commenting about an anti-Israel image? How do Nishidani's comments relate to Israel or Palestine? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 22:29, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- Well, user:Mbz1 was blocked for 48 hours for this edit. The edit was made on AE, and had absolutely nothing to do with I/P conflict area. Not to block user:Nishidani for a much worse topic ban violation would be unjustifiable. Broccoli (talk) 22:26, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- Even if the sanction did preclude Nishidani from commenting on ANI community ban Discussions (and I don't believe it does), his edits referred to above would not be covered. They have absolutely nothing to do with Israel or Palestine, and everything to do with defending a Jewish editor from racially-motivated hostility. RolandR (talk) 20:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- Why is this even being debated? "...or participating in any community discussion substantially concerned with such articles." Since the ANI revolves around Jewish Internet Defense Force it is of course related to the I-P area. He should not be commenting at all and just stay away. He even knows it and said: I think it worth while risking an extension of my I/P permaban to say this.[5] He said a good thing about a guy. That is commendable but he knew what he was asking for. When people start skirting their bans (no matter how trivial it might seem) it causes frustration and therefore disruption. This is similar to restricted editors reverting vandalism. The principle is nice but they just need to stop. No extreme restriction is needed but something is certainly justified.Cptnono (talk) 22:44, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- Follow-up:Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive53 He was in breach then but the reporting was stale. This is at least the second time (are there any others?). Something needs to be done to ensure that there is an understanding that editing within the topic area is not acceptable. The enforcement process is meaningless ff he can continue to knowingly thumb his nose at it. There doesn't need to be blood. Just a clear message that will hopefully result in it not happening again. If he has no concerns at extending his permaban (that was pretty funny) then maybe other actions are necessary.Cptnono (talk) 08:04, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- I've already expressed my gratitude to Nishidani for his posts in defence of my actions. For those baying for blood, I should like to point out that some time has passed and that any blocks should be deemed necessary to protect Wikpedia not simply punitive. Oh and can someone do something about User:ברוקולי's use of the signature "Broccoli". There already is a user:Broccoli and it should not appear that this user has anything to do with User:ברוקולי's actions.--Peter cohen (talk) 00:28, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- At the beginning of this year, I discussed the way
the waythe West Bank - Judea and Samaria sanctions worked with an editor who was a member of the ArbCom at the time they were imposed. My understanding is that restricted editors may edit pages which touch peripherally on the Arab-Israeli conflict so long as they don't edit or add parts which specifically refer to the Arab-Israeli conflict to those pages and so long as their contributions aren't disruptive. Otherwise, as one of the Wikipedia editors mentioned on the JIDF's hit list, I think that it is entirely proper that Nishidani participated in a case concerned with whether the leader of the organisation should be allowed to participate on the Wikipedia project. ← ZScarpia 00:50, 1 September 2010 (UTC) - Nishidani's comments appear to be technically in breach to me (although I allow room for the fact that some see them as not being in breach). I think, though, that it would be detrimental to the workings of Wikipedia to censure non-disruptive one-off contributions to ANI discussions. --FormerIP (talk) 00:55, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- Nishidani was defending Peter Cohen, who was under a lot of stress trying to deal with a bad situation, and it wouldn't make sense to have yet another Wikipedian fall victim to that situation. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 01:03, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm mildly curious to hear how Broccoli thinks blocking Nishidani would help Wikipedia. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:35, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- Not that adding another concuring opinion is going to be overly helpful here, but I agree. This seems baseless. Are there any counter measures out there for frivolous submission to AE? NickCT (talk) 15:08, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- I believe that AE should be enforced fairly or should not be enforced at all.
- RolandR and others, please do not make a victim out of user:Peter cohen and a hero out of user: Nishidani
- Peter cohen was warned by Jimbo for the first time, and for the second time. Nishidani's
- topic ban violation was addressed directly to User:Jimbo Wales
- "Mr Wales...". Are you saying that User:Jimbo Wales was
- the one who made "racially-motivated abuse" towards user:Peter cohen?--Broccoli (talk) 15:58, 1 September 2010 (UTC
- Are you going to stop using someone else's user name as your sig?--Peter cohen (talk) 00:13, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- I will treat that question with the respect that it deserves. RolandR (talk) 16:45, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- Did the arbitration case directly concern the Arab-Israeli conflict? Did Nishidani comment on the Arab-Israeli conflict? Was Nishidani being disruptive? ← ZScarpia 19:10, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Regarding whether Nishidani's comments were a violation, they were pretty much on the borderline. In situations such as this, some discretion is allowable, and given that Nishidani wasn't being disruptive, I don't think a block would achieve anything. PhilKnight (talk) 19:31, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- It seems to be a borderline case, but important for WP credibility and fairness for 'boderline' cases to be handled with less tolearnce it seems. Mbz1 was blocked on much less than this as shown above. This would seem like a clear double-standard if nothing is done here. --Shuki (talk) 22:34, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Nishi's comments were in a thread unrelated to the topic area. Cptnono says it was about the article on the "JIDF", a "Jewish internet defense" group that oddly attacks Jews on the internet. The thread was not about the article on the JIDF and anybody who read the thread would not say that it was. But Nishi needs a forceful reminder that this place is not good enough for him. A block for editing in an area that he is not restricted from would give such a reminder. nableezy - 01:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- When I asked how the restriction applied to Nishidani and other editors would work, I was told that they may edit articles which touch on the Arab-Israeli conflict (that is, articles that have a scope which goes beyond the A-I conflict) so long as they don't edit the parts of those articles which specifically refer to the A-I conflict. They may also edit the talkpages of those articles so long as they avoid discussing anything related directly to the A-I conflict. Presumably, the same applies to ANI cases. I would say that it's fairly obvious that the JIDF and David Appletree are topics which are not solely concerned with the A-I conflict. Clearly Nishidani didn't address the A-I conflict in his comments. Therefore, judging by what I was told about how the restriction was intended to be applied, Nishidani has not breached it. Other editors subject to the same restriction have been allowed to edit pages whose content is as, or more, related to the A-I conflict as the ANI cases under consideration. Some editors here have commented that they are worried that double standards may be applied, mentioning Mbz1's case. In fact, if Nishidani is subjected to a further sanction, then, as Nishidani has done no more than some other editors subject to the same restriction, a double standard will then have been applied. ← ZScarpia 01:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Of course i see double standards here. mbz1 was blocked when she asked to remove I/P related cartoon [6]. Nishidani was not blocked, when he added I/P related cartoon [7].--58.8.110.113 (talk) 06:10, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- I see scintillating scotoma when I have an acephalgic migraine. The patterns seem very clear but they aren't really there.
The block log says 12:52, 6 June 2010 Sandstein (talk | contribs) blocked Mbz1 (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 72 hours (Arbitration enforcement: Third violation of Israeli/Arab conflict topic ban, at [8] and User talk:Breein1007).
Nishidani's block log looks like this so you seeing patterns that aren't there based on invalid assumptions about cause and effect. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:39, 2 September 2010 (UTC)- I.e. read properly, that block log refers to, over my entire history, two blocks in 2007, when I began to edit, for violating 3RR, the first because I didn't understand the way reverts were counted, the second because two people tagteaming, and later banned, kept eliding 3 impeccably reliable sources on one page. The rest were blocks due to administrative error, and overturned almost immediately by community requests to administrators. This was, in the good old days, enough evidence to get one permabanned. So be it, but attempts to compare my exiguous record for violations over some 17,000 edits with habitual evaders of blocks, by people who have a long record for disruption, are offensive, particularly if registered by low performers or IP blowins.Nishidani (talk) 12:35, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- The complaint looks like pure harassment to me. The terms of the restriction on Nishidani are clear and Nishidani did not violate them. He did not edit an article or comment on a talk page attached to the article and he did not participate in "a discussion substantially concerned with such articles". It seems to me that "Broccoli" wants to broaden the 15 month old editing restriction, but the time is long past for that. In fact, it's probably time to lift the indefinite restriction on N's editing. N is not a vandal who is likely to repeat his vandalism - he simply wants to introduce a different view into IP articles -- one that is supported by RSs, even though it is not the majority view. Allowing these minority views (if supported by RSs of course) is completely consistent with WP policy and improves article quality. Banning contributors indefinitely and seeking to broaden the bans after the fact, ultimately degrades Wikipedia content and drives away open minded contributors. KeptSouth (talk) 14:56, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
(ec withe below)
- Sorry KS, my remarks were phrased in a way that they lent themselves to an interpretation suggesting I 'want' to do something with I/P articles. I was referring to the history of my work in that area, so the proper thing would be to paraphrase that I 'wanted' (to see to it that the 2 active Palestinian editors, as opposed to the several hundred Israeli/Jewish editors in that area, had some assistance from the outside to ensure WP:NPOV was respected). I saw it as an egregious example of systemic bias, for which there was no technical remedy. Therefore no plea to be allowed back, since I have no vocation for martyrdom. The point was, that these episodes of relentless indictment, stalking and harassment, not for any serious disruption (like sockpuppetry etc), but simply to drive people out of wikipedia by a cavilling instrumental focus on niceties of law, that make rather reasonable editors look bad when admins look at the sheer number of denunciations registered on logs, ought eventually to be addressed. They won't be of course. I suppose now that this off-the-cuff reflection can be used against me. I don't care, at this point.Nishidani (talk) 15:24, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- Without wishing to add to the drama, it seems a little cowardly to hide away from this, now I've spotted it. I'm I-P topic banned too, and also commented at ANI, and on Peter's talk page, opposing the attempt by a community-banned user, multiple sockpuppeteer and owner of a website with militaristic stylings that tries to name, out and intimidate WP editors - Jewish and others - to smooth his way to editing here. That individual is also on record as making grossly Islamophobic statements, through that website and on his Twitter account (after his attempt was rebuffed, he them forged an anti-semitic rant that was purported to be from the blocking admin, and posted it on the web. He is now rampaging across WP using multiple IDs, saying “that’s what we wanted”). I can't for the life of me see where there's a breach of any arbitration ruling in raising a voice against that prospect, and in offering some brief support to an editor who felt threatened by that person. None of Nishidani's comments - or mine - were about the I-P conflict, or on or even about pages or topics related to it. This was not a "community discussion substantially concerned with such articles", to quote the restriction directly. Arguably, this one is though. Whoops. Anyway, even if a weakly plausible connection can just about be made through five degrees of separation, as also noted, what benefit would there be to whatever action it is that is actually being requested? N-HH talk/edits 15:13, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- ps: actually, I'm not sure it's fair to Nishidani to say he represented minority views on I-P issues. And, specifically on the topic ban, like me, he got hit for "edit warring" for requesting the standard international terminology of "West Bank" in WP articles on the conflict, and for making a total of about, oh five reverts over several months on that point. Although like him, I am glad to be free from the madhouse. N-HH talk/edits 15:13, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- I should have said "minority view on Wikipedia" - anything that the JPost or the Likud party would not agree with can be the minority view on I-P and terrorism related Wikipedia articles. Just look at how many times these POV pushers edit certain articles, and how often these self same people file ANIs, vandalism charges, etc. against editors they view as their opponents. They are clearly the majority and they usually get their way.
- By the way, I support N's right to edit whatever he wants, including the Palestine Israel articles. The small number of reverts over one year ago do not justify an indefinite topic ban. It is a disproportionate punishment for what was largely a misunderstanding on his part. This enforcement action seems to be requesting a total ban because N discussed something about a Jew on a page that was not off limits to him. It is absurd. If such rules were to be applied universally on WP, we would all be banned indefinitely. This case should be closed, and the indef topic ban on N should be lifted as part of the review of this case.KeptSouth (talk) 22:35, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- No. This case has nothing to do with challenging the Arbcom decision, or some putative right, no one else has, uniquely for me, to enjoy a state of exception to an Arbcom deliberation. That is history as is much of my work. It is simply a technical question of whether I infringed the articles of that sanction. I don't believe I did. mI believe the Arbcom decision was within the rights of the arbitrators, though I do not agree with it. But as Socrates taught the Western world in the Crito, if you live within a democratic system, you must respect its laws, and not whinge. He could have escaped, but he preferred to dutifully take his poison. Minor lights do well to bear that in mind. I appreciate your position, of course, but this is no place to challenge a verdict, however incomprehensible, that affected many people, not only me.Nishidani (talk) 22:50, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- I started to post this this morning but I thought surely I was misunderstanding something about this request, so I refrained until reading the comment from KeptSouth. As an outside observer, the logic of this request escapes me.
- 1. Nishidani "is prohibited from editing any article in the area of conflict (West Bank - Judea and Samaria), commenting on any talk page attached to such an article, or participating in any community discussion substantially concerned with such articles."
- 2. The ANI discussion was about the problem of multiple sockpuppets edit-warring at the Jewish Internet Defense Force article.
- 3. The particular discussion in which Nishidani participated was about whether to community-ban Einsteindonut.
- Would someone please draw the line from "any community discussion substantially concerned with such articles ((West Bank - Judea and Samaria)" and a discussion about sockpuppets at Jewish Internet Defense Force? It seems like an awfully liberal interpretation to me. Tom Reedy (talk) 21:28, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- No Tom. I am permabanned for the I/P area, if you read the appropriate sections down the page at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/West Bank - Judea and Samaria. I may touch nothing in the I/P area, and, as Malik reminds me, be very careful not to stray into grey zones.Nishidani (talk) 21:48, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- So do you really really understand this time? This is at least twice now. Admins should have some balls and show you a block to at least gie the impression that there is some integrity left. But if you pinky swear on it they might let you walk again. Seriousley, just email other users like everyone else probably does instead of commenting yourself next time. This AE is annoying but you editing in the topic area is even worse since you are banned.Cptnono (talk) 03:12, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe you can explain, Cptnono, since Broccoli seems unwilling or unable to respond. How do Nishidani's comments relate to Israel or Palestine? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- I've already explained. The article Jewish Internet Defense Force was part of the discussion at ANI even though it delved into off article discussion as well. The article touches on the conflict even if it isn't tagged as such on the talk page. But since we are stretching so hard, it could also be argued that he shouldn't be discussing anywhere that could even be broadly construed as related. There is no doubt that the I-P conflict was part of that discussion. And he even admitted to it in his edit when he made the remark that basically said screw you to his sanction. Again: "I think it worth while risking an extension of my I/P permaban to say this." He knew making a comment was at the very best questionable if not completely unnecessary and enforceable. He is not welcome in the topic area and now we have yet another long AE since he snubbed the rules. If he would have stayed away this wouldn't have happened. So if he doesn't get it it needs to be made clear. If he does get it then he needs to show it by not coming back. If this was the first time it would not be a big deal. It is the second. Enough is enough. Does AE matter or not? If not, I will certainly have a good time telling people what I think.Cptnono (talk) 04:14, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- An admin once told me that AE frowns upon wikilawyering. Any defense to this request is splitting so many hairs that I don;t see how it can be called anything less. So yes or no admins? Cptnono (talk) 04:23, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- Well, you can of course wikilawyer your way out of something and around a ban, but random editors with an agenda can also wikilawyer your contributions into a banned area, and clog up notice boards with complaints about it. Anyone with an open mind can see what's disruptive, time-wasting and of no constructive purpose. I'm also utterly baffled by Wgfinley's contribution to the "Result" section. N-HH talk/edits 07:39, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe you can explain, Cptnono, since Broccoli seems unwilling or unable to respond. How do Nishidani's comments relate to Israel or Palestine? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- No Tom. I am permabanned for the I/P area, if you read the appropriate sections down the page at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/West Bank - Judea and Samaria. I may touch nothing in the I/P area, and, as Malik reminds me, be very careful not to stray into grey zones.Nishidani (talk) 21:48, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- Cptnono, with reference to the JIDF article, you say: "The article touches on the conflict". Also: "It could also be argued that he shouldn't be discussing anywhere that could even be broadly construed as related." Nishidani's restriction means that he cannot write about the I-P conflict anywhere. However, so long as he doesn't write about the conflict, he is not banned from participating when the subject is broader (that is, merely touches) than the I-P conflict. If you doubt that, contact one of the arbitrators who imposed the restriction. ← ZScarpia 08:36, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- Wgfinley Could you do me the courtesy of explaining what is 'damning' about that diff? Nishidani (talk) 10:04, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- You wrote the word "Israeli". Isn't that damning enough? RolandR (talk) 10:15, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- No I didn't, guv.:) Not at least in the 'first diff' Wgfinley defines as 'damning' evidence of my violating the I/P ban.Nishidani (talk) 11:01, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- Oh but you did, in passing, when you explained what SHIT stood for. That is in the first diff cited against you, and clear evidence of criminal intent. I missed it first time round as well. N-HH talk/edits 11:24, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- Wow! And there I was thinking I was a close reader. All I saw was a fine editor's name listed in or as 'SHIT'. No excuses then. I did violate the ban, the JIDF is vindicated, all the boys who worked on this can thank Broccolo for defending Wikipedia against a violent 'disruptive' agitator, and as I join, I suppose, Peter Cohen and, I presume, presently, perhaps the best I/P editor we have, Nableezy, in the afterwikilife, watch on as the insulted and injured, to use Dostoievsky's term, are welcomed with open arms, even if they have long records for sockpuppetry, disruption, POV editing, and whatever. Just goes to show. When you see someone who has publicly painted you out to be an antisemitic ranter full of anti-Israeli bias (no diff has ever been adduced to show the slightest evidence for either of these absurd charges), and smeared a Jew as not being Jewish, you have no right of redress on wikipedia, not even a cautious quip, nor any right to remonstrate on behalf of a good man's personal dignity, especially after the boss steps in to chide the latter for his exasperation. Okay, die Lage ist verzweifelt, aber nicht ernst, as they use to say in the coffee shops of Vienna in Karl Kraus 's day, let the Kahanist tribalbutients take up their barcaloungers and tune into wiki, to edit away on behalf of its high aims. If you wish to achieve 'closure', Finley then hang on a tic while I finish one or two edits I have been asked help out with. Shouldn't take more than a day or two, and they have nothing to do with the provocative defence of personal dignity that seems to be my problem with administration here.Nishidani (talk) 12:23, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- So that settles it then. Nishidani understands it and has even added some punch to his comments. So will there be repercussions or can he violate his ban yet again? "Broccolo" doesn't need anyone's thanks and I am sure Nableezy appreciates Nishidani's support.Cptnono (talk) 00:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Wow! And there I was thinking I was a close reader. All I saw was a fine editor's name listed in or as 'SHIT'. No excuses then. I did violate the ban, the JIDF is vindicated, all the boys who worked on this can thank Broccolo for defending Wikipedia against a violent 'disruptive' agitator, and as I join, I suppose, Peter Cohen and, I presume, presently, perhaps the best I/P editor we have, Nableezy, in the afterwikilife, watch on as the insulted and injured, to use Dostoievsky's term, are welcomed with open arms, even if they have long records for sockpuppetry, disruption, POV editing, and whatever. Just goes to show. When you see someone who has publicly painted you out to be an antisemitic ranter full of anti-Israeli bias (no diff has ever been adduced to show the slightest evidence for either of these absurd charges), and smeared a Jew as not being Jewish, you have no right of redress on wikipedia, not even a cautious quip, nor any right to remonstrate on behalf of a good man's personal dignity, especially after the boss steps in to chide the latter for his exasperation. Okay, die Lage ist verzweifelt, aber nicht ernst, as they use to say in the coffee shops of Vienna in Karl Kraus 's day, let the Kahanist tribalbutients take up their barcaloungers and tune into wiki, to edit away on behalf of its high aims. If you wish to achieve 'closure', Finley then hang on a tic while I finish one or two edits I have been asked help out with. Shouldn't take more than a day or two, and they have nothing to do with the provocative defence of personal dignity that seems to be my problem with administration here.Nishidani (talk) 12:23, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- Oh but you did, in passing, when you explained what SHIT stood for. That is in the first diff cited against you, and clear evidence of criminal intent. I missed it first time round as well. N-HH talk/edits 11:24, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- The comment in question also includes a suggestion, at the very end, that the comment might risk an extension of the I-P ban. Nishidani does tend to be - dare I say it, and it's no bad thing - unduly cautious on this point. Or, one might say, prescient, given the phrasing used is (my emphasis) "risking an extension", and given that someone opened this complaint. I also remain confused by what "he brought it him himself with the Jewish references" means, or what that might have to do with I-P bans; or why a link to one of Nishidani's comments is referred to as "one of my own clear comment". Or in what way it constitutes a "result". But that's just nitpicking. As is the observation, for the sake of correctness, that in fact the ban covers the Arab-Israeli conflict, not just the Palestinian-Israeli area. ArbCom quietly changed that without telling or asking anyone, after the original decision had been handed down. Not that it makes a difference to the issue here. N-HH talk/edits 10:52, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- No I didn't, guv.:) Not at least in the 'first diff' Wgfinley defines as 'damning' evidence of my violating the I/P ban.Nishidani (talk) 11:01, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- You wrote the word "Israeli". Isn't that damning enough? RolandR (talk) 10:15, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
@WGFinley Assuming the clause of the sanction relevent to the 1st diff would be "or participating in any community discussion substantially concerned with such articles.", but there [9] Nishidani is commenting on offsite "wikistalking" of another user, not article content or anything directly related to such; also the topic ban isn't from "Jewish topics". Then re your diff, Nish's sanction does not preclude him from discussing the banned topics on user talk pages. Misarxist (talk) 12:33, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- Comment I was blocked 3 times for so called ban violation. First time I was blocked for this revert in Rothschild family article that has nothing to do with I/P conflict, as my revert did not. Second time I was blocked for this comment made on AE that had nothing to do with any article at all. The third time I was blocked for this comment at sandstein's talk page. Once again the comment had nothing to do with the article. No, I do not think that wikipedia will be better off without Nishidani, and I enjoy his knowledge of literature, but he did violate his topic ban at least 3 times I know of, and a day or two of block will help him to make a better judgment next time. BTW User:N-HH also violated his topic ban by making comment at that request. I provided my own history for learning purposes only. I see here few new administrators. I believe it will make them good to see what could be considered a topic ban violation.--Mbz1 (talk) 19:14, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think sometimes there needs to be a consideration of what benefit a punitive block brings. Looking at the pro-Israel editors, there are some who never get into trouble with admins. Then there are the likes of yourself, JayJG, Shuki etc. who do get into trouble at times through being outspoken or insistent or whatever but who also contribute stuff including featured content. Then there are the likes of David Appletree who operate sock-puppet armies, run mailing lists etc. in which they encourage meatpuppets to join in their disruption, have a website where they launch attacks on lots of Wikipedians, issue tweets indicating that they are considering coming over to London (where I happen to live) and do something against the rules (tweets listed on my talk page) etc. issue other tweets implying that they are planning a campaign to infiltrate Wikipedia and who have never made any effort to contribute anything to the project. If Nishidani had interfered in the occasional dispute I might have with you or Shuki, then I think sanctions would be appropriate. That is because you two are bona fide Wikipedians who may not be perfect but who contribute with the intention of improving the encyclopedia even when you are advancing political staff I disagree with. Appletree has never contributed in good faith and his presence on Wikipedia is totally negative. He exploits all policies simply to try and keep the article on his organisation as distorted as possible in his favour. He bombards OTRS, Jimbo and Arbcom with petty complaints in the hope of causing trouble for his critics. (Knowing him, he'll probably complain about this post.) And some of the people who receive his complaints leap into judgment without exploring the history. As a result we have lost User:Scott MacDonald at least for the time being, I've reduced my activity, (including delaying working with someone to draw up the history of an editor whose activity has looked suspiciously anti-Semitic,) another editor has put up a notice on their talk page stating that they are currently disillusioned with Wikipedia. Editors under this sort of attack from someone acting in such bad faith need to be shown support or the project suffers. Even though I disagree with you on a lot of issues I've also shown you support when you were being wikistalked and have tried to chase up SPIs that were being slow. (I'm glad to see that you've felt up to returning BTW.) I feel that Nishidani's actions were intended to show me support when I was being subject to the repercussions of what he saw as similarly malicious conduct. And therefore I don't think his actions should be treated as an ordinary violation of an editing restriction.--Peter cohen (talk) 23:23, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- This request has absolutely nothing to do with David Appletree. This request has nothing to do with me. I'm hardly involved in editing I/P conflict articles, and I have never been involved with those very much. User:Scott MacDonald is a very fine man, and I told him so in a message I left on his talk page today, and this request has nothing to do with him either.I am sorry you cut back your contributions, but this request has nothing to do with you either. This request is about Nishidani, who violated his topic ban for the third time I know of. I was blocked, when I asked to remove hate propaganda, Nazi motive image from a user page. I was blocked for 72 hours for that! Did I do something wrong? Well Sandstein believed I violated my topic ban, and I accepted the punishment, and I would have done the same thing over and over again, even knowing for sure I am going to get blocked. Why? Because the only thing that matters to me is knowing that I have done the right thing. The same with Nishidani. He believes he has done the right thing, yet by doing so he violated his topic ban for the third time. Period. BTW his first and second topic ban violation were not nearly as "noble" as some claiming his third one was. --Mbz1 (talk) 00:17, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- I admire all those who have detailed blueprints or memories of my behaviour. I can't even research adequately to find out diffs for things I otherwise remember. This whole episode is one of making a mountain out of a molehill. If I gave the impression I thought I was doing something 'noble' instead of just being decent, when a good productive editor was hauled over the coals by an authoritative voice in here, well that's unfortunate. You're making out I am somehow on a par with those numerous sockpuppets, persistent disturbers of the peace, militant POV warriors and the myrmidons of the general 'let's give'em hell' hugger-mugger. I acted in Peter's interest, and in wikipedia's general interest, in my view, in those three short edits, one a simple wry quip about DA not being DA but a Shabbos goy. Where's your sense of humour? This place, unless it is not careful, will straitlace itself into stasis step by step, unless it makes a clear operative distinction between editors who are consistently and disruptively POV-warring, and editors who drop a quip, or make a rare point concerned with the functionality and integrity of the encyclopedia. I appreciate you haven't voted either way, but merely commented. We have only interacted once, on Nableezy's page. I watch that page, which suffers from vexatious, systematic and repeated messages that, overtly or between the lines, are provocations intended to stir a reaction that might get the page's namesake hauled before administration. I don't count you among those who do this there. But when I saw this, I 'mirrored' it immediately. The message was, don't provoke other editors with offensive caricatures, or you will get as good as you give, since anyone can play that game. A comic nudge. It was a topic-ban violation, read strictly, I suppose. I don't think this is being 'disruptive'. I think any mature adult should understand, if they are seriously committed to this project, that one can game, tie-up in endless litigation other editors' time if they get fixated on the letter of the law, and not its spirit. The protocols of wiki are to facilitate the building of NPOV content, ensure on-article disruption is minimalized. They are not there to be jerryrigged for combative outing of 'adversaries'. I haven't, I repeat, ever taken anyone to arbitration in 4 years. I have consistently maintained a dialogue on talk pages with people who, from the word 'go' I was 95% certain, from stylistic considerations, were sockpuppets (taken seriously for several months by administrators, such as Tundrabuggy, NoCal100 and Canadian Monkey. I dislike, finally, this latest repetition of a pattern I discerned long ago, reoccurring in this case. An editor far out of left-field whom one has never heard of, suddenly appears with a well-formatted denunciation complaining of some putative rule infraction of the protocols governing the I/P area, and then disappears, leaving it to the usual line up to argue the point. It's obvious what is going on behind the scenes, but nowhere near good form. Not punishable, but that style of 'denunciation' should be treated very warily. People who do that are not acting in the interests of the encyclopedia. Nishidani (talk) 10:38, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Too many words that do not matter, too many abuse of WP:NOTTHEM, a few conspiracy theories especially for one, who was not going to comment here at all. I will not respond everything, just about memories. Somebody, who commented here linked to this case. So it has nothing to do with my memory, I had no idea about that AE. I simply read the current AE.--Mbz1 (talk) 11:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- I admire all those who have detailed blueprints or memories of my behaviour. I can't even research adequately to find out diffs for things I otherwise remember. This whole episode is one of making a mountain out of a molehill. If I gave the impression I thought I was doing something 'noble' instead of just being decent, when a good productive editor was hauled over the coals by an authoritative voice in here, well that's unfortunate. You're making out I am somehow on a par with those numerous sockpuppets, persistent disturbers of the peace, militant POV warriors and the myrmidons of the general 'let's give'em hell' hugger-mugger. I acted in Peter's interest, and in wikipedia's general interest, in my view, in those three short edits, one a simple wry quip about DA not being DA but a Shabbos goy. Where's your sense of humour? This place, unless it is not careful, will straitlace itself into stasis step by step, unless it makes a clear operative distinction between editors who are consistently and disruptively POV-warring, and editors who drop a quip, or make a rare point concerned with the functionality and integrity of the encyclopedia. I appreciate you haven't voted either way, but merely commented. We have only interacted once, on Nableezy's page. I watch that page, which suffers from vexatious, systematic and repeated messages that, overtly or between the lines, are provocations intended to stir a reaction that might get the page's namesake hauled before administration. I don't count you among those who do this there. But when I saw this, I 'mirrored' it immediately. The message was, don't provoke other editors with offensive caricatures, or you will get as good as you give, since anyone can play that game. A comic nudge. It was a topic-ban violation, read strictly, I suppose. I don't think this is being 'disruptive'. I think any mature adult should understand, if they are seriously committed to this project, that one can game, tie-up in endless litigation other editors' time if they get fixated on the letter of the law, and not its spirit. The protocols of wiki are to facilitate the building of NPOV content, ensure on-article disruption is minimalized. They are not there to be jerryrigged for combative outing of 'adversaries'. I haven't, I repeat, ever taken anyone to arbitration in 4 years. I have consistently maintained a dialogue on talk pages with people who, from the word 'go' I was 95% certain, from stylistic considerations, were sockpuppets (taken seriously for several months by administrators, such as Tundrabuggy, NoCal100 and Canadian Monkey. I dislike, finally, this latest repetition of a pattern I discerned long ago, reoccurring in this case. An editor far out of left-field whom one has never heard of, suddenly appears with a well-formatted denunciation complaining of some putative rule infraction of the protocols governing the I/P area, and then disappears, leaving it to the usual line up to argue the point. It's obvious what is going on behind the scenes, but nowhere near good form. Not punishable, but that style of 'denunciation' should be treated very warily. People who do that are not acting in the interests of the encyclopedia. Nishidani (talk) 10:38, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Nothing to do with conspiracy theories. While thinking over my reply to EdJohnson, a train of thought led me to check Mr Wales' wiki profile, and I noted he was an Objectivist. This in turn made me think of a structural problem in wiki evidence in arbitration, which emerges if you are familiar with the brilliant Michael Polanyi's classics Personal Knowledge and The Tacit Dimension. That is why I'm taking a long time to reply to a simple request. I keep wandering through larger issues, the meta-context, . . . Perhaps I should just retire, sanction or not, and simply publish an essay on it.
- Anyhow. Come now, there is no need for exasperation. As a gesture of good will, I see on your page you are an admirer of Vladimir Vysotsky. Here’s a peace offering. I think the lines in his Так дымно
- Минутный порыв говорить - пропал, -
- И лучше мне молча допить бокал...
- This request has absolutely nothing to do with David Appletree. This request has nothing to do with me. I'm hardly involved in editing I/P conflict articles, and I have never been involved with those very much. User:Scott MacDonald is a very fine man, and I told him so in a message I left on his talk page today, and this request has nothing to do with him either.I am sorry you cut back your contributions, but this request has nothing to do with you either. This request is about Nishidani, who violated his topic ban for the third time I know of. I was blocked, when I asked to remove hate propaganda, Nazi motive image from a user page. I was blocked for 72 hours for that! Did I do something wrong? Well Sandstein believed I violated my topic ban, and I accepted the punishment, and I would have done the same thing over and over again, even knowing for sure I am going to get blocked. Why? Because the only thing that matters to me is knowing that I have done the right thing. The same with Nishidani. He believes he has done the right thing, yet by doing so he violated his topic ban for the third time. Period. BTW his first and second topic ban violation were not nearly as "noble" as some claiming his third one was. --Mbz1 (talk) 00:17, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Allude to Boris Pasternak’s poem Hamlet generally, but specifically to
- Если только можно, Aвва Oтче,
- Чашу эту мимо пронеси.
- Take it as a 'piece' offering, since you appear to think I was behaving as execrably as Evelyn Waugh with that wartime ration of bananas.Nishidani (talk) 12:03, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Nishidani
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
The first diff appears to be damning to me. The Arb decision states he's not allowed to even comment on community pages about such topics. On its face it's on topic as he brought it himself with the Jewish references. When looking into this I found one of my own [10], clear comment on another user's talk page about Jewish Defense Force. --WGFinley (talk) 07:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
174.112.83.21
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning 174.112.83.21
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- 174.112.83.21 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Discretionary_sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- diff removal of sourced content, without explanation
- diff Removal of sourced content after discontinuing contributing on the talkpage
- diff Again
- diff Explicit refusal to co-operate and also refusal to provide sources he/she has invoked e.g. here and here.
- diff On another talkpage, IP is again withholding what his/her "objections" are and a user is asking for them
- diff Another one
- diff IP perhaps responds to the two preceding ones
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- diff Warning by Wgfinley (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- diff Warning by Dailycare (talk · contribs)
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- Topic ban/block (what's appropriate for an IP?)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- This IP has been acting tendentiously in more than one article by opposing edits without articulating reasons for doing so (see diffs mentioned above) and removing sourced, even multiply sourced, material. For example in the Gilo article IP has continued (after discontinuing offering any input on Talk) removing a mention that Gilo is in East Jerusalem, despite the fact that in Talk, seven sources (BBC, New York Times, LA Times, Le Monde, The Guardian, the British Foreign Office and Jerusalem Post) had been presented saying this. IP also failed to provide articulated reasons why "East Jerusalem" shouldn't be in the article, except this but continued to remove the text from the article. IP has been cautioned against inappropriate behaviour e.g. here.
As an additional point, the editing history of this IP looks a bit interesting with very sporadic (and apparently minor) edits in 2009 followed by a surge of activity, in Israeli-Palestine articles, beginning August 13, 2010.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- diff
Discussion concerning 174.112.83.21
Statement by 174.112.83.21
Comments by others about the request concerning 174.112.83.21
Comments by Supreme Deliciousness
I believe that 174.112.83.21 is in fact user User:Breein1007 and that he has decided to edit as an IP because of all the warnings, blocks etc he got with his main account so he is now editing with an IP so he can behave in whatever way he wants, edit warring and incivility.
Comments such as this:
A user asks: "What makes Israel a developed country?" "I think the proper term to describe it is developing." [11]
Breeins/174.112.83.21 response: "hahahahahahahahahaha says the guy from jordan. is this meant to be a joke?" and then ads it again: [12]
They both have the same uncivil behavior: IP "wtf are you talking about" Breein: "What the hell are you talking about in your edit summary?"
See for example this where the IP makes a comment and Breein continues the discussion: [13]
Breein has made posts in hebrew:[14] IP also makes posts in hebrew: [15]
I also have personal information that links Breein to this IP.
Breein was notified of Arbcom in 18 november 2009 [16]
I previously filed an enforcement for the things he had done, several of the admins wanted to act on it but for some reason it became stale and it was archived without being closed: [17]
The fact that he is now continuing the same edit warring and uncivil behavior as an IP instead of his main account is something that should be stopped. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- I checked User:174.112.83.21's edit history against 500 of User:Breein1007's past edits.
- I didnt' find many matches. Both accounts worked on Jerusalem, MV Mariam, Rawabi, User talk:Ynhockey,Muhammad al-Durrah incident.
- There are behaviorial similarities in edit summaries. Breein liked using the word "stop" in his edit summaries (e.g. "stop censoring things plz","therefore stop harassing me","please stop deleting sourced info"). 174.112.83.21 appears to do the same (e.g. "what part of stop reverting egypt did you not understand","kindly stop violating wikipedia policies immediately", "it is unfactual. stop putting lies".)
- I think there is moderate circumstantial evidence suggesting these users could be the same, but I'm not convinced. NickCT (talk) 20:07, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- As I said, I also have personal information that links Breein to this IP that I havent revealed here, that information together with the behavior is clear that its him. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:46, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think there seem to be two issues here: whether the IP is Breein and then the behaviour of the IP itself. This request concerns the behaviour issue, so unless SPI investigation pre-empts arb enforcement (don't know if this is the case) then the behaviour side should be actionable on this forum, regardless of whether Bree and IP are the same person. --Dailycare (talk) 20:40, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning 174.112.83.21
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
I believe this is the wrong venue, this should go to WP:SPI. Unless someone objects I will close and ask it be filed there. --WGFinley (talk) 20:10, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- No because its not a clear case for a SPI because he has abandoned his main account. Considering all the things he did with that account, if he had continued his edit warring and uncivil behavior from it, he most likely would be banned from Arab-Israeli articles, so it look like he is trying to continue the same disruptive behaviour but without the history of the Breein account to avoid being sanctioned. This is a case for Enforcement. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:51, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'd suggest filing on WP:SPI, but keeping this thread open for now. PhilKnight (talk) 21:01, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- I filed a SPI here: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Breein1007. --Dailycare (talk) 21:49, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'd suggest filing on WP:SPI, but keeping this thread open for now. PhilKnight (talk) 21:01, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by User:JRHammond
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by User:JRHammondUser:Wgfinley exercises extreme prejudice against me. He has previously violated WP:OUTING by posting personal information about me.[20] He has previously blocked me on spurious pretexts, leading to my appeal and the block being lifted.[21] And he has otherwise continually harassed me, including by threatening to ban me on the basis that I was contributing to the Talk page after his previous ban on me had expired and accusing me of edit warring when I couldn't even edit the article if I wanted to, as it is under protection![22] His pretexts in this case are equally spurious. Examining his stated reasons for the ban:
(1) Ad hominem arguments are no basis for a ban. User:Wgfinley grossly mischaracterizes me here. He insinuates that I have been unwilling to collaborate, but offers nothing to support that contention, which I reject absolutely. I have gone through enormous efforts to try to discuss issues with other editors. In fact, I have practically begged other editors to participate and express their approval/disapproval of certain edits I've proposed in an effort to get others involved in an attempt to improve the article, e.g.:[23] He characterizes my contributions to the talk page as "tendentious", but again offers no substantiation for that charge, which I reject absolutely. I stand by all my expressions of concern over certain content I have sought to improve with what I contend are perfectly reasonable recommended edits that are in total compliance with WP:NPOV and other relevant Wikipedia guidelines. (2) User:Wgfinley would have people believe I have openly defied an administrator by pronouncing my intention to abuse the "editprotected" template. This charge is absolutely baseless. Here is the exchange to which he refers: User:Amatulic told me:
To which I responded:
Anyone may verify that I did indeed do exactly as the admin had outlined before employing the template. The whole premise of User:Wgfinley's pretext here is thus completely spurious. I had used the template in accordance with the guidelines given, and I said I would continue to employ the template in compliance with its intended purpose, contrary to what User:Wgfinley would have people believe with his deliberate mischaracterization. (3) There is no Wikipedia guideline that I am aware of that limits the amount of participation an editor may make on the talk page. Are we seriously supposed to consider that, as User:Wgfinley suggests, that extensive contributions to the Talk page and laborious efforts to improve the article ("100 edits in just a couple days", which is hyperbole, but, yes, I've been highly active) constitute a reason for an indefinite ban? User:Wgfinley continues with his stated pretexts:
(4) Again, I did not abuse the "editprotected" template, as outlined above. I used it precisely as the admin told me it should be used. I also absolutely did not in any way say or suggest that its "proper usage of it is 'unreasonable'". User:Wgfinley is being totally disingenuous. It was improper usage of the template I said was "unreasonable", which was very clear from my statement. The context: I pointed out a problem with the article and offered what I maintain to be an uncontroversial solution to resolve it. The proposed fix remained for a number of days and I explicitly stated my intent to employ the template to have the edit made, calling upon others to approve or state their objections, if any. After no objections were raised, I utilized the template. It was deactivated because of a misunderstanding by User:MSGJ. As this admin suggested I wait for an extended period of time, I, agreeing and complying with his request, did not reactivate the template. [25] Later, User:Amatulic expressed the following:
And again:
To which I replied:
This statement constitutes no basis for an indefinite ban whatsoever. There is nothing on the page explaining the proper usage of the template that supports the view here that a proposed edit (an uncontroversial one at that) that has received no objections after a reasonable period of time cannot be implemented.[28]. Moreover, User:Amatulic's suggestion that I "won't find an administrator on Wikipedia who will agree to a request to edit a contentious article without clear positive evidence of consensus" is a baseless opinion. First, the article may be contentious, but my proposed edit is not. Second, I did find an admin who very clearly agreed with my view on the proper use of the template. After the misunderstanding I noted above was cleared up with the admin who deactivated the template, that admin stated:
Thus, here is an admin, User:MSGJ who clearly shares my view on the proper and reasonable usage of the template, that directly contradicts User:Amatulic's position and demonstrates the fallacy of his argument, all of which also demonstrates incontrovertibly that this entire premise for User:Wgfinley's ban on this count is wholly spurious. Continuing:
(5) I have in no way been uncivil. Nor did I accuse anyone of making personal attacks. User:Wgfinley is again being disingenuous. What I stated on numerous occasions is that people were relying on ad hominem argumentation, which they were. User:Wgfinley's misunderstanding of what an ad hominem argument is does not constitute a reasonable basis for an indefinite ban, any more than my repeated observations that others, rather than addressing the facts and logic of my argument(s), instead have attempted to appeal to supposed prejudice on my part. It's a fact that others did so, and this is, by definition, ad hominem argumentation. I've repeatedly requested other editors refrain from employing such logical fallacies in their responses, and instead address the issues I've raised substantively. My doing so does not constitute any basis whatsoever for an indefinite ban. In sum, User:Wgfinley has yet again[30][31] offered entirely spurious pretexts for his ban, which is all the more unreasonable in that it is indefinite. I request that the ban be lifted, and I further request that action be taken to prevent User:Wgfinley from harassing me further with baseless accusations and banning/attempting to ban me on spurious pretexts consisting of dishonest, false, and otherwise misleading characterizations.
REQUEST FOR ADMINS What Wikipedia policy guideline have I violated to warrant this ban? Please state which one(s). In what way have I violated said Wikipedia policy guidelines? Please quote me where I said anything in violation of said guideline(s), or point to the diff for whatever action of mine was in violation of said guideline(s). Short of that, please lift this ban immediately. Thank you. JRHammond (talk) 01:51, 5 September 2010 (UTC) Statement by User:WgfinleyI had a whole section here but I'm removing it to save on clutter. I explained the ban on the user's talk page in detail so it can be found there. I think his statement is clear evidence of his tendentious, combative and disruptive nature. I stand by everything that was here previously I just no longer see a need for it and wish to keep this space tidy. --WGFinley (talk) 13:59, 3 September 2010 (UTC) Outing AccusationThis user edits using his real name (as I do), on its face he has outed himself. There was an article he posted on one of his websites that I thought could be seen as canvassing in the comments section with its references to Wikipedia as well as its numerous references to his own original research on the subject of the Wikipedia in question. I thought he should disclose this to the editors of the article as he was frequently being accused of original research. There's no outing here, it's off-wiki material leading to on-wiki behavior which has been covered in previous Arb cases. InvolvedRegarding JP's statement below, I am most assuredly not involved (emphasis mine):
I've only had administrative action on the article, nothing more. JRH has gone through at least 3 admins before me and has shown a willingness to admin shop. Are we going to allow him to wheel war or are we going to allow admins who are not involved in editing the article continue to remediate (at length if necessary) as clearly outlined in the policy? The number of admins who will take up the mop on P-I articles is few as it is and this would make it worse. --WGFinley (talk) 23:48, 3 September 2010 (UTC) LengthI picked indefinite as JRH has shown no intention of changing his behavior. His last block was for intentionally violating an article ban[50] to do a tendentious edit[51]. What did he do as soon as he came back? Started repeatedly submitting the same edit [52] using the {{editprotected}} template to admin shop. [53] [54] [55] [56] [57] . Length seems to be of no consequence to him because we have the wrong version. --WGFinley (talk) 23:48, 3 September 2010 (UTC) Since I had some time I have added some diffs. I thought this case to be rather obvious and textbook but diffs now supplied of him immediately coming back trying to get his edit in that he was blocked for, ignoring opposing viewpoints, adding the {{editprotected}} template with no consensus 4 times in a 24 hour period and then states he has no intention of stopping. JRH's idea of consensus is to count the hands raised ignoring those of anyone who disagrees. There's too much in this appeal already, if other uninvolved admins have questions for me I'll be happy to answer. --WGFinley (talk) 15:15, 4 September 2010 (UTC) Statement by User:BorisGOver the years I made very minor contributions to Six-Day War and its talk page Talk:Six-Day War, and as far as I recall, User:JRHammond has always been active there. When I read the article Wikipedia:Tendentious editing which an administrator cited yesterday, my first thought was that it was written about User:JRHammond. He is extremely knowldegeable and his edits are usually well sourced. But taken together, his many edits reveal a clear pattern of systematic bias (in my view). Of course User:JRHammond will never agree with this, but if users look at statements by both User:JRHammond and User:Wgfinley, and at the discussion page in question Talk:Six-Day War, they can judge for themselves. BTW it's the first time I ever comment on an AE case, so I apologise in advance if I have done something wrong, and will be happy to modify or remove my statement if instructed. - BorisG (talk) 12:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Statement by User:AmatulicI came across the Six-Day War article during the course of administrative backlog patrolling, where I ran across an {{editprotected}} request. I spent a great deal of time reading the talk page history, found a consensus (not all in one place) for removal or replacement for two contentious sentences, and removed them. In the course of my investigation I discovered prior administrative actions regarding JRHammond including a previous ArbCom decision. At that point I decided to engage myself as a mediator, not taking sides in the debate, but establishing some ground rules for progress. My first action was to stop what I perceived as misuse of the editprotected template. I saw instances of debate being generated by JRHammond placing that template, which is the reverse of what should happen: first debate, come to consensus, and then place an editprotected template to have the consensus change implemented. JRHammond insisted that he had been doing this, in spite of evidence on the same talk page of an editprotected template followed by a huge debate. He added that a requested change should be implemented for requests to which nobody objects or responds in any way, and stated repeatedly that he would continue using the template as he had been doing. I stated, repeatedly, that for a highly contentious article as this, lack of response doesn't imply consensus, and unless I see positive support for a change (not lack of any response) the change won't be implemented no matter how non-controversial JRHammond sees it. He stated that this standard is "unreasonable".
I observe that MSGJ has not been engaged in the conflict and may have been unaware of my attempt to mediate. MSGJ is, of course, free to act any way he sees fit, and I would not object to his acceptance of an editprotected request to which I insist there be positive support. This, however, does not excuse the apparent canvassing of admins on JRHammond's part, and does not excuse JRHammond's insistence, after being told repeatedly how the editprotected tag should be used, that he would continue to use it disruptively. To his credit, I will say that JRHammond has not used the editrequested template since I began to mediate. While I felt we were making slow progress prior to JRHammond's ban, I do agree that his activity on the talk page qualifies as tendentious, with the result that other good-faith contributors to the article were being chased off, and that is unacceptable. I have mixed feelings about an indefinite ban, but now that it is in place, the ban should not be lifted without an agreement from JRHammond to specific behavioral changes. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:36, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
JRHammond appears confused by the instance of a single word ("then") which I have now struck from my comment for clarity, as that paragraph was not intended to continue a chronological tale. JRHammond is selective about the ordering of events. Talk:Six-Day War speaks for itself. I saw no need to summarize every exchange in my comment above. But it is obvious from the talk page that I became involved in August. I asked JRHammond to withdraw an editprotected template on 1 September at 5:31 UTC. He then went admin shopping to MSGJ at 12:34 regarding this exact same template, which MSGJ had disabled. This appeal should focus on the behavioral rationale behind JRHammond's ban, not pointless bickering about who said what and when. ~Amatulić (talk) 04:39, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
I was going to ignore the latest diatribe, as it's hardly worth addressing, because the talk page speaks for itself. I find it curious that JRHammond chooses to attack every statement I make, in spite of the fact I have been impartial, even accepting one of JRHammond's edit requests, and exhorting others to weigh in regarding another so we could have consensus and move on.
Statement by Frederico1234I think the block was premature as a new admin had just arrived to the talk page and had begun mediating. I also think that User:Wgfinley, while acting in good faith in order to enable progress on the article, should have left this task to another admin due to his own previous involvement (the erroneous block, the outing ("JRHammond" is not his full name, so it was indeed outing)). --Frederico1234 (talk) 14:26, 3 September 2010 (UTC) Regarding the previous 31h block: JRHammond was reported for 3RR violation here. As seen in that edit, the alleged reverts are the following: JRHammond was notified of the block here. I believe the diffs makes it clear that a) JRHammond did not violate 3RR and b) the stated reason for the block was indeed 3RR violation. --Frederico1234 (talk) 16:51, 5 September 2010 (UTC) Statement by mbz1
Statement by JiujitsuguyI’ve had my share of interactions with JRHammond and the impression I got was one of a guy who could never admit that he’s wrong. I found his rambling wall-to-wall texts, filled with WP:OR and WP:SYNTH to be, dizzying. He is unable to accept any form of criticism or sanction. By way of example, I got a bit aggressive with my editing on the Six-Day war and WgFinley put me back in line with a 48-hr article ban. I accepted my sanction and moved along. JRHammond received the same sanction shortly thereafter and instead of complying with the ban, defied it, drawing a stiffer sanction of a one-week block and a two-week article ban. Then he appealed with his usual wall-to wall text, denying any wrong-doing and blaming everyone else but himself. I would support shortening the article ban in exchange for a promise of good behavior but doubt that this will be forthcoming from this editor.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 19:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC) Statement by Ling.Nut
Comments by GatoclassPhilKnight, given that all the blocks and bans in question were handed out by WGFinley himself, whose own conduct in relation to JRH has been described or found to be inappropriate by more than one admin, escalating to a one-month ban would in my opinion only be rewarding the questionable conduct by WGF. Gatoclass (talk) 10:52, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Statement by User:EnigmamanI have no history with the article in question, but did block JRHammond for edit-warring. For my troubles, I got a series of uncivil comments and borderline personal attacks from JRHammond. His bone of contention was that he technically did not violate 3RR. Whether that's true or not, he'd been very clearly edit warring on a sanctioned article for an extended period. As was noted by someone else, WP:TE could be describing JRHammond. His approach is a battleground approach, and simply won't play nice with any editors. He will not brook any disagreement with anything he says whatsoever. His presence on the Six Day War article is not helpful, and this can be seen from the article talk page. As I said above: Perhaps he can edit constructively elsewhere. Perhaps not. Either way, it would behoove us to find out. Enigmamsg 01:14, 5 September 2010 (UTC) My "bone of contention" was that I did not, as a demonstrable point of fact, confirmed to you by others, violate 3RR, which was the stated reason for that block. How you can say here "Whether that's true or not" when you knew perfectly well (again, User:Frederico1234 confirmed to you that I had not done so, and others made similar observations) demonstrates once again your lack of good faith. It's not playing very nice to block people on a false pretext, is it? I see no reason to "play nice" with editors who refuse to play nice with me. Are you going to ban yourself for not playing nice? JRHammond (talk) 01:57, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Statement by User:Ruslik0I think the presence of JRHammond on the talk page of Six-day war has not been constructive so far. I do not think that statements like That's your argument? On the basis of its patent idiocy, your objection on the basis that a recommendation is not a recommendation is hereby dismissed or As your objection doesn't address that fundamental point, it is hereby dismissed. or Your lending of equal weight to Blum's totally baseless argument is unreasonable, and your objection on that basis must be dismissed. serve to achieve any consensus. I think JRHammond far too often dismisses other viewpoints as nonsense or ad hominen without any reason. I have not edited recently due to traveling, but when I returned I found that JRHammond flooded the talk page with editprotect requests hoping that some passing by admin would entertain at least some of them. I think that the indefinite topic ban should stand. Ruslik_Zero 11:03, 5 September 2010 (UTC) Topic ban violationA topic banned user cannot be engaged in any discussion on the topic. It is what topic ban is about. Yet User:JRHammond keeps pushing the editors on their talk pages using them as the talk page of the article. This kind of behavior proves yet another time that the ban should not be lifted, and that the user should get blocked for a day or two to cool down. --Mbz1 (talk) 12:49, 5 September 2010 (UTC) The current ban on me is explicitly a ban "from editing Six-Day War and its talk page". Since this ban was imposed, and while it is under appeal, I have not edited the Six Day War article or its talk page, and therefore, ipso facto, I have not done anything to violate the ban, as you are here trying to suggest. Additionally, there are no Wikipedia guidelines forbidden editors from engaging in discussion on users' talk pages for the purpose of improving articles. Now, if you think something I've stated elsewhere constitutes some kind of violation of Wikipedia policy, you are welcome to quote me on the offending statement and explain in what way it violates policy, or if you think there is any error in fact or logic in the arguments I've presented in a good faith effort to see improvements made to the article, you're welcome to point it out. JRHammond (talk) 13:02, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by User:JRHammond
|
The above is approaching 125kb, at least a third of which is from the petitioner, who I refer to WP:TLDR. Reading through this request, I am not inclined to overturn the ban at this point, and it doesn't appear that the consensus among admins is leaning that way either. If JRHammond wishes to refile a request to overturn the ban, he is instructed to limit his statement to no more than 1000 words and is also advised that uncontroversial participation in other areas of Wikipedia will be seen favorably.
If an admin feels that an expansion of the ban is warranted, they are free to do so even though I closed this request. NW (Talk) 03:06, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by User:JRHammond
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- JRHammond (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – JRHammond (talk) 04:41, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- Indefinite ban from editing Six Day War article and participating on Six Day War talk page.[92]
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Wgfinley (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.
Statement by User:JRHammond
(1) I was banned on the stated pretext of "tendentious editing". Amended: "Tendenitious Editing" is defined as "editing which is partisan, biased or skewed taken as a whole. It does not conform to the neutral point of view, and fails to do so at a level more general than an isolated comment that was badly thought out." User:Wgfinley does not even attempt to substantiate that my editing "is partisan, biased or skewed" or that it "does not conform to the neutral point of view" in his stated argument for my ban, and he would be hard-pressed to do so. Moreover, WP:TE states explicitly: "It is important to recognize that everybody has bias. Whether it is the systemic bias of demographics or a political opinion, few people will edit subjects in which they have no interest. Bias is not in and of itself a problem in editors, only in articles." WP:TE applies to editing of articles, not participation on Talk pages. I have not edited the article in question, and could not if I wanted to, as it is protected. I therefore further move that the ban be overturned on the basis of a spurious pretext.
(2) The imposing admin, User:Wgfinley has demonstrated a pattern of abuse of authority and prejudice towards me, including previously blocking me on a spurious pretext (successfully overturned by appeal, with the deciding admin stating: "I see nothing in JRHammond's comments at that talk page that warrant a block, let alone a one week block, and particularly a "cool down" block.")[93] and violating WP:OUTING by posting personal information about me I did not share with others myself.[94] Given this pattern of behavior on the part of the admin, I move that the ban be overturned on the basis of prejudicial treatment.
(3) This current ban follows this pattern of abuse of authority. For example, User:Wgfinley alleges: you will be disruptive if you consider it necessary you will venue shop by abusing the 'editprotected' template and believe proper usage of it is "unreasonable". This is a gross wilfull and deliberate mischaracterization of the facts, and demonstrably so. User:Amatulic had arrived on the page and outlined the proper use of the template. Contrary to expressing that I "believe proper usage of" the template "is 'unreasonable'", I responded to observe that I had followed that procedure exactly, and what I actually said was "I'm using the tag precisely as it was intended, as you yourself just outlined. And, as I said, I will continue to employ the tag as it was intended to be used." User:Amatulic replied, "JRHammond, I am gratified that you have agreed to follow the procedure I outlined..."[95] User:Amatulic went on to express his personal view that it was not enough that no objections were raised to the proposed edit for which I'd employed the template, arguing that "You won't find an administrator on Wikipedia who will agree to a request to edit a contentious article without clear positive evidence of consensus." I disagreed with that interpretation of its use and observed the fact that I had already come to an understanding with another admin, User:MSGJ, who had already, in fact, agreed to implement my requested edit if it remained unopposed after more time was allowed to give others opportunity to review it ("I've invited other editors to comment on your proposal and if there is no response in a couple of days I can make the edit.")[96] It was this situation that User:Wgfinley deliberately tries to mischaracterize as some kind of rebelliousness or "disruptive" behavior in an attempt to offer a pretext for this ban. Given User:Wgfinley's previous pattern of abuse of authority, along with such deliberate distortions of my comments as this, I reiterate that I move that the ban be overturned on the basis of demonstrably prejudicial treatment. JRHammond (talk) 04:39, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Statement by WGFinley
Fellow admins, we have the wrong version.
Thank you.
--WGFinley (talk) 04:50, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Statement by Mbz1
The prior request was just closed by NE. Do we really need to go over this again? I believe the ban should be extended to be broadly construed, and the request should be closed. It is just a time wasting. As with all indefinite bans the next appeal could be filed in a year.--Mbz1 (talk) 05:06, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- (1) The admin who closed it invited me to re-appeal ("If JRHammond wishes to refile a request to overturn the ban, he is instructed to limit his statement to no more than 1000 words..."). I did so according to the instruction given. (2) Your remark does not substantively address the argument for my appeal. JRHammond (talk) 06:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by User:JRHammond
Gatoclass will not be the sole person to close this appeal; it will be done by consensus among admins if we are to overturn the ban. Gatoclass' request is simply a request that other admins are not bound by, though they may choose to if they so wish. As for your larger concerns about Gatoclass' actions as an administrator, that is not for here, but for WP:RFC/U. NW (Talk) 11:41, 6 September 2010 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
Statement by Gatoclass
I am currently working my way through JRHammond's contributions to both the Six-Day War article and the related talk page in order to try and make a judgement about this. I'd appreciate it if this appeal was not closed until I have had a chance to complete my review. Thanks, Gatoclass (talk) 08:44, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by User:JRHammond
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.