Content deleted Content added
AlexandrDmitri (talk | contribs) →Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/5/1/2): update tally |
AlexandrDmitri (talk | contribs) →Nelly Furtado ethnicity dispute: declined as mathematically impossible |
||
Line 3: | Line 3: | ||
{{Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Header<noinclude>|width=53%</noinclude>}} |
{{Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Header<noinclude>|width=53%</noinclude>}} |
||
<!-- PLACE YOUR {{subst:arbreq}} BELOW THIS LINE--> |
<!-- PLACE YOUR {{subst:arbreq}} BELOW THIS LINE--> |
||
== Nelly Furtado ethnicity dispute == |
|||
'''Initiated by ''' [[User: ChromaNebula|<span style="color:red">C</span><span style="color:orange">h</span><span style="color:yellow">r</span><span style="color:green">o</span><span style="color:blue">m</span><span style="color:purple">a</span><span style="color:silver">Nebula</span>]] [[User talk: ChromaNebula|<span style="color:gold">(talk)</span>]] '''at''' 22:04, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
[[Nelly Furtado]] contains a serious dispute. [[User: Kww| Kww]] claimed that calling Nelly Portuguese-Canadian was a violation of policy. [[User: Pedro|Another user]] and [[User talk: 194.79.73.25|an IP user]] disagree with him, and have cited sources to back up their claim. I personally don't care whether she's Canadian or Portuguese-Canadian (I even put the dispute in the [[WP: LAME|hall of lame]]). But then--hear me out--Kww protected [[nelly Furtado|the page]], giving him an advantage in the dispute. I talked to him on [[User talk: Kww|his talk page]]: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AKww&diff=492772480&oldid=486707866] Please fix this before it gets worse. |
|||
=== Involved parties === |
|||
<!-- use {{admin|username}} if the party is an administrator --> |
|||
*{{userlinks|ChromaNebula}}, ''filing party'' |
|||
*{{admin|Kww}} |
|||
*{{IPlinks|194.79.73.25}} |
|||
*{{user|PedroPVZ}} |
|||
<!-- The editor filing the case should be included as a party for purposes of notifications. --> |
|||
;Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request |
|||
<!-- All parties must be notified that the request has been filed, immediately after it is posted, and confirmation posted here. --> |
|||
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A194.79.73.25&diff=492770974&oldid=486700635 194.79.73.25] |
|||
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:PedroPVZ&diff=492792905&oldid=491987556 PedroPVZ] |
|||
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AKww&diff=492772480&oldid=492653449 Kww] |
|||
:<small>I fixed some format errors in this request. [[User:AGK|<font color="black">'''AGK'''</font>]] [[User talk:AGK#top|[•]]] 23:00, 15 May 2012 (UTC)</small> |
|||
;Confirmation that other steps in [[Wikipedia:dispute resolution|dispute resolution]] have been tried |
|||
<!-- Identify prior attempts at dispute resolution here, with links/diffs to the page where the resolution took place. If prior dispute resolution has not been attempted, the reasons for this should be explained in the request for arbitration --> |
|||
[[Nelly Furtado]] has a big discussion on it. I warned Kww for possible admin abuse on [[User talk: Kww|his talk page]]; he disagreed with the allegation. I want ArbCom to solve this problem because one of the involved parties is an administrator. |
|||
:*AuburnPilot: It's not clear that another method would have been successful, and as I said before, one of the involved parties is an administrator. Good evening, and in case I don't see you, good night, good morning and good afternoon! [[User: ChromaNebula|<span style="color:red">C</span><span style="color:orange">h</span><span style="color:yellow">r</span><span style="color:green">o</span><span style="color:blue">m</span><span style="color:purple">a</span><span style="color:silver">Nebula</span>]] [[User talk: ChromaNebula|<span style="color:gold">(talk)</span>]] 00:51, 17 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
=== Statement by Kww === |
|||
I'm neither the first nor the last admin to protect this article because of this issue, nor the only one to treat it as a BLP issue. No reliable sources sufficient to describe Nelly Furtado as "Portuguese" in the lead have ever been provided. My discussion with ChromaNebula can be seen [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kww&oldid=486715329#Please_don.27t_edit_war here], and the discussion of these sources at [[WP:RSN]] can be seen [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_119#Nelly_Furtado_citizenship here].—[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 23:06, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
:My related post at [[WP:BLP/N]] can be seen [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive149#Nelly_Furtado here].—[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 23:49, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
::I've modified the filing to add PedroPVZ and remove Pedro.—[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 01:07, 16 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
I'm "involved" with Nelly Furtado to the extent that I am "involved" with any music article. Music articles are the general area that I watch over, and are the area where I will notice problems that need addressed. I'm not aware that I have ever heard any of her music, and don't take any personal interest in the artist. I nominate articles for deletion under [[WP:CRYSTAL]] when I notice them, G4 them when they come back, protect them when they get vandalized or too frequently visited by socks, all the things that admins do. Since the main [[Nelly Furtado]] article is on my watch list, I rapidly notice related problems like the creation of the T.S.I. series of articles. |
|||
I know that I have protected Nelly Furtado in the past because of this particular problem. So have Qwyrxian (note [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nelly_Furtado&diff=477638593&oldid=477565555 removal of ethnicity] followed by [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nelly_Furtado&diff=477638784&oldid=477638702 semi-protection]); SlimVirgin (note [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nelly_Furtado&diff=352388395&oldid=352387825 removal of ethnicity] followed by [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nelly_Furtado&diff=next&oldid=352388395 semi-protection]); and Tedder ( note [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nelly_Furtado&diff=317568039&oldid=317557670 removal of ethicity] followed by [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nelly_Furtado&diff=next&oldid=317589117 semi-protection]. I didn't check Yamla and Nat's protections: if memory serves, that was over a plagiarism dispute. I've probably installed protection on some of her album articles and blocked some vandals as well. |
|||
So, the short answer is that I don't feel particularly involved with the topic. My discussions on it have been efforts to explain to the people inserting the inappropriate material exactly why their material was inappropriate and what kind of sourcing would be required. To the extent that my actions relative to the topic area have generated any involvement, my actions are justified by the "''any reasonable admin''" language, and further justified by [[WP:BLP]], as the material being inserted is poorly sourced. Note that I took the controversial sources to ''both'' [[WP:RS/N]] and [[WP:BLP/N]] to have the controversy examined by others.—[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 10:57, 16 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
I think my edits would pass under the "trivial" and "obvious" tests as well, Roger. Besides the removal of "Portuguese", you will see edits like [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nelly_Furtado&diff=486617782&oldid=486496537 this], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nelly_Furtado&diff=486101757&oldid=486099513 this], and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nelly_Furtado&diff=485941053&oldid=485927341 this]. The closest I've come to content contributions on the article that I can see is removing unreleased albums from the discography section, but that's something I do as general maintenance of articles in the music area, much like I remove inappropriate charts. On [[Whoa, Nelly!]] there was a spate of figure changing that [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Whoa,_Nelly!&diff=480047769&oldid=480040112 I reverted] and that's an [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Whoa,_Nelly!&diff=405247786&oldid=405245816 ongoing problem]. I semi-protected that one, too, which is the normal admin response to chronic figure vandalism. I don't think that crosses [[WP:INVOLVED]], either. I've got similar edits on [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mi_Plan&diff=351291240&oldid=351289557 Mi Plan]. Right now, I have 14,720 articles on my watchlist: every article that I've ever done any kind of edit on, vandalism reversion included. My editing is driven by that and by [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:AbuseLog&wpSearchFilter=81 the filter 81 log]. I just watch them change and fix issues when they come up. There are certainly some hot spots in my editing (Disney Channel related articles, for example, which are typically edited by small children and need lots of repair), but those tend to come up due to frequency of problems, not due to particular interest or involvement on my part.—[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 12:00, 16 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
=== Statement by 194.79.73.25 === |
|||
=== Statement by PedroPVZ === |
|||
*I do not think KWW abused his powers in this article. When stuff started being stressful, he kept calm and talking normally. He is doing his "job". Although I dont think even if Nelly Furtado herself would edit the article and putting Portuguese nationality, he would revert it, unless if she shows proofs in the court of law of her nationality and stated by the judge as his final word, He will then accept it. --[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] ([[User talk:PedroPVZ|talk]]) 11:48, 16 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
=== Statement by uninvolved Lord Roem === |
|||
I think more prior attempts at DR are appropriate than just talk page dispute, then RfA. I would be glad to invite the filing party to go to [[WP:DRN|the DR noticeboard]], open an [[WP:RFC|RfC]], or (if he/she really alleges admin misconduct) to open a discussion at [[WP:ANI]]. I think any of those choices would be better options than a prolonged arbitration proceeding, especially at such an early stage in the dispute. |
|||
Best of luck, [[User:Lord Roem|Lord Roem]] ([[User talk:Lord Roem|talk]]) 22:49, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
=== Comment by AuburnPilot === |
|||
First, no [[WP:DR|dispute resolution]] options appear to have been used. Second, the editor involved is {{user|PedroPVZ}}, not {{user|Pedro}}. --[[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]] [[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 23:04, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
=== Comment by CubeLurker === |
|||
IMHO all this really needs is a second opinion by an uninvolved admin. (KWW is small i involved, I'm not sure that it rises to [[WP:INVOLVED]]). That admin can either affirm the need for page protection, or remove/adjust if needed.--[[User:Cube lurker|Cube lurker]] ([[User talk:Cube lurker|talk]]) 23:13, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
=== Comment by Gimmetoo === |
|||
I think the semi-protection of the article was the obvious and appropriate action, under the circumstances, and endorse its application. To those raising "involved" with regard to kww, note that [[WP:INVOLVED]] says "the community has historically endorsed the obvious action of any administrator – even if involved – on the basis that any reasonable administrator would have probably come to the same conclusion". [[User:Gimmetoo|Gimmetoo]] ([[User talk:Gimmetoo|talk]]) 08:59, 16 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
=== Comment by ErrantX === |
|||
I'm sure that Roger intends his questions in good faith; but they come across as implying something untoward behind the scenes. Why do any of us get involved in topics? :) As it is, I'd endorse kww's page protection & would be happy to reapply the protection if that resolves the issue... (though that does seem pointless bureaucracy) --'''[[user:ErrantX|Errant]]''' <sup>([[User_talk:ErrantX|chat!]])</sup> 09:23, 16 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
:What I was driving at is that the comments appear to imply kww may hold a COI in this topic area (i.e. use of the word "disclose"). In my experience, as an admin, there is fair latitude for an editor maintaining a topic to use admin tools appropriately - particularly in matters of BLP. YMMV (and kww 's actions may not fall under "fair latitude") but I think the community is a more appropriate first stop in scrutinising his actions, rather than arbcom, as AGK points out. This should be declined quickly and the OP offered the option of utilising other appropriate dispute resolution paths if they still want to! --'''[[user:ErrantX|Errant]]''' <sup>([[User_talk:ErrantX|chat!]])</sup> 10:38, 16 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
=== Comment by (wholly uninvolved) Bwilkins === |
|||
I'm hesitant to call Kww "involved". We as admins often get called to deal with something on an article, end up watchlisting it, and fixing minor "glitches" when they popup. We then (rightly or wrongly) become known as the "go-to guy" for similar issues on related topics. I'm hesitant to think that makes us "involved". Of the 1300+ pages on my watchlist, I probably only truly meet "involved" on a handful. In terms of the actual protection: 100% support the protection - it appears this topic has been bandied about a gazillion times. Besides, unlike our neighbours to the south, Canadians do not concatenate our ethnicity to our nationality: we're Canadians, not Xyz-Canadian. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<font style="font-variant:small-caps">talk→</font>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">''' [[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]] '''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<font style="font-variant:small-caps">←track</font>]]) 10:47, 16 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
: Additional comment: '''why is this at ArbComm'''? ''Possible'' misuse of Admin tools does not belong here, yet ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<font style="font-variant:small-caps">talk→</font>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">''' [[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]] '''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<font style="font-variant:small-caps">←track</font>]]) 11:44, 16 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
=== Clerk notes === |
|||
:''This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).'' |
|||
=== Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/6/1/3) === |
|||
*I am sceptical that there is a legitimate complaint to hear, but if there is then please first pursue more appropriate forms of dispute-resolution. '''Decline.''' [[User:AGK|<font color="black">'''AGK'''</font>]] [[User talk:AGK#top|[•]]] 23:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
:* '''Additional comment:''' To be clear, I recognise that there may be an issue with Kww's use of the sysop functions (or not, as Roger is exploring); but even in disputes about sysop tool use, arbitration is rarely the first stage of dispute-resolution. I see little attempt at taking up this complaint with Kww directly, unless the thread was deleted from his talk page, and no justification for omitting some attempt at community-based discipline (like [[Wikipedia:Administrators#Requests for comment on administrator conduct|Requests for Comment]]). Moreover, no wider problem with Kww's use of the administrator tools has been substantiated, and I therefore see no basis for our involvement at this early juncture. [[User:AGK|<font color="black">'''AGK'''</font>]] [[User talk:AGK#top|[•]]] 10:09, 16 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
*'''Comment''' the concern raised also appears to be the use of admin tools while involved. Awaiting further statements but that does appear at first glance to be something we are the port of call to review. [[User:Casliber|Casliber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 23:09, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
*I see the same things Cas does. We're not going to make a ruling on someone's ethnicity or other content matters here, but the use of admin tools while involved does fall under our jurisdiction, so awaiting further statements. [[User:Courcelles|Courcelles]] 01:33, 16 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
*'''Recused''' I'm on record as recommending kww's desysop in an unrelated case of admin tool use earlier this year. [[User:Jclemens|Jclemens]] ([[User talk:Jclemens|talk]]) 02:13, 16 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
*'''Questions for Kww''': after some due diligence, I see that you are active in the Nelly Furtado topic, editing, reverting vandalism, and for instance moving [[The Spirit Indestructible (album)]] to [[The Spirit Indestructible]]. Apart from actively editing, you also protected [[Nelly Furtado]] and [[Whoa, Nelly!]]. I see you also nominated [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/T.S.I. T.S.I.] for deletion, and subsequently deleted and salted [[The Spirit Indestructible (Nelly Furtado album)]] as a recreation of the deleted article.<p>My questions are:<ul><li>Is there any reason, Kww, why you used admin tools in the topic in which you were involved?<li>Also, apart from the specific instances I've mentioned, have you used admin tools elsewhere in the topic (for example, blocks)?<li>Have you anything you'd like to disclose or to add which might help the committee resolve this or dispose of this swiftly and fairly?</ul>Thanks in advance, [[User:Roger Davies|<span style="color:maroon; font-variant:small-caps">'''Roger Davies'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Roger Davies|'''talk''']]</sup> 08:26, 16 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
:*@Gimmetoo and @ErrantX. Thanks for your comments. The basic question, as CubeLurker so succinctly puts it, is whether Kww is involved or [[WP:INVOLVED|INVOLVED]]. If he ''is'' INVOLVED, are ''all'' his admin actions exempt for various reasons or does [[WP:NOTPERFECT]] and other admin-related stuff apply to some of them. All this, it seems to me, can be resolved very easily by Kww himself answering my questions. As [[WP:ADMINACCT|"administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed"]], I don't think I'm being impertinant in asking them. [[User:Roger Davies|<span style="color:maroon; font-variant:small-caps">'''Roger Davies'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Roger Davies|'''talk''']]</sup> 10:00, 16 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
:*@ErrantX alone. Yes, that would be pointless bureaucracy :) [[User:Roger Davies|<span style="color:maroon; font-variant:small-caps">'''Roger Davies'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Roger Davies|'''talk''']]</sup> 10:01, 16 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
:*@Kww. Thanks for the explanation. Finally, a common test for involvement is whether the admin is going beyond trivial or obvious edits and making editorial decisions. Would this apply here at all, do you think? [[User:Roger Davies|<span style="color:maroon; font-variant:small-caps">'''Roger Davies'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Roger Davies|'''talk''']]</sup> 11:33, 16 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
* '''Decline''' in the hope this dispute can be resolved without arbitration, which is often a lengthy and contentious process. This doesn't imply your dispute is unimportant, merely that arbitration isn't the best way to resolve it. Suggest having a look at [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution]] - there are several kinds of dispute resolution that could be useful. For the content side of the dispute, given the complexity of the issues, I would suggest the next stage is [[WP:MEDCAB|informal mediation]], and if there are more serious problems you could try either a [[WP:RFC|Request for Comment on content]] or [[WP:MEDCOM|formal mediation]]. For the concerns regarding whether KWW should be making edits to an article he has protected, I would suggest a [[WP:RFC/ADMIN|Request for Comment on admin conduct]]. If after the earlier stages in the dispute resolution process have been attempted, we could look again at whether arbitration was required. [[User:PhilKnight|PhilKnight]] ([[User talk:PhilKnight|talk]]) 16:46, 17 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
*'''Decline''' as insufficient evidence of using admin tools while WP:INVOLVED is provided (versus a content dispute, which is not within our bailwick), and even then I would be hesitant to accept a case as other forms of DR have not been tried. [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] ([[User talk:SirFozzie|talk]]) 17:25, 17 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
*'''Decline'''. I echo Phil's thoughts on this issue. <font color="#cc6600">[[User:David Fuchs|Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs]]</font><sup><small>(<font color="#ff6600">[[User talk:David Fuchs|talk]]</font>)</small></sup> 01:12, 18 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
*'''Decline''' per above. [[User:Kirill Lokshin|Kirill]] <sup>[[User talk:Kirill Lokshin|[talk]]]</sup> 02:10, 18 May 2012 (UTC) |
|||
*'''Decline''' Matters like this are generally taken through dispute resolution or to ANI first; added to which there is a degree of interpretation regarding how far Kww was involved and how far he was carrying out appropriate semi-protection given the history of that article. As a rule of thumb, if there is some doubt about being involved, an admin would be advised to seek advise or assistance, and I expect Kww will move forward with that in mind. '''[[User:SilkTork|<font color="#8D38C9" size="2px">SilkTork</font>]]''' '''[[User talk:SilkTork|<font color="#347C2C"><sup>✔Tea time</sup></font>]]''' 10:45, 18 May 2012 (UTC) |