"political" editing of New Kadampa Tradition article
Yonten - please explain what exactly *in the article as it stands* warrants the inclusion of this tag? for an article to be "disputed" there must be some current disagreement amongst editors about its content: what, in the article, is being disputed?
you say "Edoitors from obth sides using Wiki as political tool"; your use of "sides" and "political" here is revealing. what sides? what is disputed?
this article has been worked on by a number of editors for some time to reach its current state. your inclusion of this tag is unwarranted, imo.
i have posted the above on the New Kadampa Tradition talk page - the proper place for discussioon of your proposed edit.Atisha's cook (talk) 11:08, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- You know the answers-dont come the kokomo
Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war; read about how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.
Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you do not violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.
- Yonteng, you keep adding this tag despite not discussing it with any other editor and just insulting them whenever they try to discuss with you. Please can you stop doing this and try and collaborate. The article is very reasonable and neutral as it stands. If you want to make edits that are well sourced and avoid your obvious bias on the talk pages, then go ahead, and if they accord with the five pillars of Wikipedia they will stick. But there is no call for the tag. (Truthbody (talk) 18:29, 8 May 2009 (UTC))
- Also, I can see you are a new user, just starting today, and just working on the New Kadampa Tradition article. I would like to assume WP:good faith with a new editor, but you are making that difficult with your comments to other editors. (Truthbody (talk) 18:31, 8 May 2009 (UTC))
- Sorry, I tried to work with you, but you do not seem to be listening to anyone and are just putting the tag back every time, so I have requested the administrators for their input. (Truthbody (talk) 19:55, 8 May 2009 (UTC))
OOOOOH! Lets see what they think, eh?Nice to see you......to see you, nice!PS If neutral means pushing the criticism section right to the end, editing out any new critical material, reverting changes without explaining them and bullying any editors who hold opposing views to yours so they dont return to the page, i guess that makes you neutral. You use the language of reasonableness but for years you have lied and bullied people off this page.Yet when someone else does what you do, you throw all your toys out of your pram and start crying about the injustice of it sll-I sincerely hope the editors do a thorough job-maybe they can google your user names too and see the fanatical anti Dalai lama war you are waging across the internet on numerous sites. Remember, the NKT is probably the most controversial New Buddhist Movement there is and there are many who can see straight through the supposed neutrality of the one sided article you have forced onto wikipedia-How can it possibly neutral? You are clearly not functioning at a normal level of intellectual dispassion. All I have done is engage you at the level you have engaged others on this page to freak them out. Now you freak out and scream injustice. Editors, mail Chris Fynn, mail Kt66, look at th edit historys, see how refenced 3rd party sources are removed without justification and replaced with self justifying propaganda-all I want is non NPOV banners on the page along with a warning that citations need to be validated-the alternnative is for wikipedia to become just another tool in the NKT anti Dalai Lama war, using the medium to promote legitimacy and hide any uncomfortable truths. This demeans wikipdia. Why not let the scientologists run their own page and block any opposing views there/ That is what is happening here.Googlr NKT and 'cult' or 'controversy' Read the reems of info and then read the wik page-spot the subtle difference? Love to all (really!) Yonten G94.192.139.167 (talk) 20:59, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- for goodness' sake, there is no "NKT anti Dalai Lama war"! many members of NKT (not the organisation itself, despite claims) have protested some of the Dalai Lama's activities, with which they disagree; that's their right. that is *very* different from engaging in an "anti Dalai Lama war". that you perceive one speaks volumes to your motivation in editing the New Kadampa Tradition WP article.
- others before you have also tried to promote their own view of this organisation on the wiki, notably Kt66. this cannot reasonably be seen as "neutral" editing. that some NKT - as well as quite independent - editors have tried to prevent this and maintain a neutral and unbiased article is hardly surprising or particularly sinister.
- as Truthbody has said (repeatedly) reasoned and reasonable contributions are welcomed and will stand - whether they fit anyone's personal view or not. as you know, the promotion of personal viewpoints is not what WP is for.
- unfortunately, it seems that you will never believe this - you will just think i'm being disingenuous and deceitful. that's a shame, but there's nothing i can really do about it. what i *will* do is to continue to try to keep this and other articles straightforward, factual, accurate and free from undue bias and personal animosity.Atisha's cook (talk) 21:30, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Dear all. especially independent editors,
Look, at all this stuff below-clear evidence of a propaganda war by the NKT on WP. The assertion above that there is no Anti Dalai war on the part of the NKT???Google NKT Dalai Lama-who co-ordinates attacks on the dalai. NKT founder KG. Who runs demos, NKT leaders. Who populate demos? NKT followers. Who dominates wiki articles NKT members-if this is not a concerted NKT csmpsign to attack the Dalai and establish the NKT as correct, what is?
Many WP editors who followed the WP guidelines gave up: one of them wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/New_Kadampa_Tradition_(2nd_nomination)
See also the following passage
'Secondly, I worked alongside kt66 on WP for a couple of years, and although he was sometimes furious at himself for having spent so much of his life promoting NKT, when he came here, he learned to balance his opinions carefully with fact. It was mainly due to his efforts that the NKT, DS, KG articles remained reasonably balanced. Of course, now that GKG has told his students to stay away from discussion groups, it is unlikely that his faithful followers would continue to edit and discuss on WP - but it appears this isn't the case. Once more, the said articles are blatantly biased in NKT's favour - so much so that they garner attention as being not much more than promo. material. If you wish to present the NKT, DS, GKG etc in a manner that meets the criteria of an encyclopedia, it is essential that you reflect the facts of these things in an impartial manner. Unfortunately, it appears that there are no students of GKG, of the DSS, or any other supporter who is yet able to do that. It is fascinating. If we read the texts of the Kadampa tradition (I recommend ISBN 0-86171-440-7 as a seminal work which accurately represents the entire lojong foundation, or the great translations of the LRCM for Je Rinpoche's Lam Rim.) we are told to reveal our own faults first, and to hide our qualities. This behaviour is NOT something readers find when coming across the NKT sponsored pages of WP. Instead, they are faced with no mention of the controversies, politics or sexual escapades that the organisation is stained with.
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:New_Kadampa_Tradition/Archive_8#kt66_aka_Tenzin_Paljor
you can also take a look at Rudhy’s page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rudyh01#The_never-ending_story_about_Shugden
Kt66 has abandoned his substantial wiki contributions See http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/wikipedia-dorje-shugdens-enlightened-lineage-or-how-to-make-history/#comment-988
Also, Chris Fynn has stopped contributing-see his page
These people are real propaganda spreading cyber bullies, shafting the innocent public by hijacking wiki to post their own particular version of the 'truth' on NKT, Dorje Shugden, DS Controversy and Kelsang Gyatso pages-All I want is to see neutrality banners at the top of these pages. In this way wiki covers itsels and behaves morally responsibly in this ugly cyber war that the group have perpetuated for several years now. Wikipedia has a moral obligation to warn the public that these pages are less than reliable.
- Yonteng, the onus is on you. Per WP:NPOV dispute, "Drive-by tagging is strongly discouraged. The editor who adds the tag must address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies." Emptymountains (talk) 12:42, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Your recent edits
Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. If you can't type the tilde character, you should click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot (talk) 12:45, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
WP:AIV report
Moved from WP:AIV to Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Yonteng. utcursch | talk 12:48, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Block, warning, advice
I've blocked you for 24h for edit warring and incivility at New Kadampa Tradition. If you don't want this to happen again, then you ned to (a) stop edit warring, (b) slow down a bit and (c) focus on the edits, not the editors. Far too much of your talk page contributions consist of attacks or insinuations against other editors. Don't do it William M. Connolley (talk) 18:13, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
((unblock-auto|1=94.192.139.167|2=Autoblocked{{unblock-auto|1=94.192.139.167|2=Autoblocked because your IP address was recently used by "Yonteng". The reason given for Yonteng's block is: "edit warring / incivility at New Kadampa Tradition".|3=William M. Connolley|4=1435198))
- Original block looks to have expired, so I'd release any autoblocks, but I'm not finding any active ones, which leads me to think they might have expired. Try editing again? – Luna Santin (talk) 18:50, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Since you're editing, now, I've removed the unblock request; feel free to restore it if you have any further problems. Cheers. – Luna Santin (talk) 20:02, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
BANNERS ON NKT ARTICLE
http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/wikipedia-dorje-shugdens-enlightened-lineage-or-how-to-make-history/ EXPLAINS THE REASONS FOR THESE BANNERS Please make it clear where you want the reasons for the replacement of these banners to appear Please see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Yonteng.
May 2009
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on New Kadampa Tradition. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Wuhwuzdat (talk) 15:08, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- 48h. I reiterate my advice of the 10th William M. Connolley (talk) 18:56, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
William I will post an expalanation on the NKT talk page if you wilud please unblock me as you sadi you would (the block expired about an hour ago but its still on)Yonteng (talk) 19:00, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yonteng (block log • active blocks • global blocks • autoblocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))
- 94.192.139.167 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
Block message:
Autoblocked because your IP address was recently used by "Yonteng". The reason given for Yonteng's block is: "edit warring at New Kadampa Tradition".
- Blocking administrator: William M. Connolley (talk • blocks)
Decline reason: You were not caught by an accidental autoblocked. You were directly blocked because your behavior was disriptive to Wikipedia. If you wish to be unblocked, you must use the {{unblock}} template instead, and you MUST make an explanation of why you should be unblocked. You request is likely to be declined if you do not explain that you fully understand why you were blocked, and also can convince us that you are not going to continue the same behavior that got you blocked. Please read WP:GAB for more help. — Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:27, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
{{unblock}}
Of course iunderstand why i was blocked-Please read the follwing to try and understand what is happening-sorry its lengthy but this is a situation that has gone on for years and I really think these people are screwing wiki{{adminhelp}}
{{helpme}}
As you are probably well aware, Wikipedia policy on Conflict of Interest guidelines state: ‘A Wikipedia conflict of interest (COI) is an incompatibility between the aim of Wikipedia, which is to produce a neutral, reliably sourced encyclopedia, and the aims of an individual editor. COI editing involves contributing to Wikipedia in order to promote your own interests or those of other individuals, companies, or groups. Where advancing outside interests is more important to an editor than advancing the aims of Wikipedia, that editor stands in a conflict of interest...... The COI then lists the following examples of COI: Campaigning Activities regarded by insiders as simply "getting the word out" may appear promotional or propagandistic to the outside world. If you edit articles while involved with organizations that engage in advocacy in that area, you may have a conflict of interest. Close relationships Any situation where strong relationships can develop may trigger a conflict of interest. Conflict of interest can be personal, religious, political, academic, financial, and legal. It is not determined by area, but is created by relationships that involve a high level of personal commitment to, involvement with, or dependence upon, a person, subject, idea, tradition, or organization.’ I note that all of the contributing editors who are consistently editing this article, as well as the related Dorje Shugden and Dorje Shugden Controversy and Kelsang Gyatso (the NKT founder) ones are members of the NKT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Truthbody states: I am a Buddhist in the New Kadampa Tradition and a student of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Atisha%27s_cook states on that page in relating personal experience of a demonstration in the USA organised by Kelsang Gyatso and NKT seniors :’I saw all this myself and I saw and felt the crowd's vitriol’ indicating clear involvement with the Western Shugden Society, a group populated overwhelmingly by NKT members. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Truthsayer62 states: ‘I'm a practitioner of Kadampa Buddhism for about fourteen years’ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Emptymountains states on his talk page ‘My name is Michael-James’ . http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/Virginia names Michael-James as principal contact for ‘Kadampa Meditation Group, Location: Norfolk, VA 23517, Contact: Michael-James’ All of these editors are therefore clearly members of the New Kadampa tradition as well as being regular contributors to each of the aforementioned articles. Moreover, a majority of these editors have faced repeated allegations of sock puppetry when editing articles (See for example http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Eyesofcompassion&oldid=226226514 & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Truthsayer62 ) and have on occasions been blocked as a result. Other contributors (Kt 66, Rudy, Chris Fynn) have consistently raised the issue of the lack of neutrality of these editors (see, for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rudyh01#The_never-ending_story_about_Shugden) and some of these long term valued contributors have abandoned their attempts to balance the articles these NKT editors dominate (ie The New Kadampa Tradition, Dorje Shugden. The Dorje Shugden Controversy, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso). See, for example, http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/wikipedia-dorje-shugdens-enlightened-lineage-or-how-to-make-history/ which states: For more than one year now Wikipedia:Reliable Sources, like Dreyfus, Kay, von Brück, Mumford or Nebesky-Wojkowitz, as well as other qualified scholarly papers on the history of Shugden worship (and / or the Shugden Controversy / New Kadampa Tradition) have been repeatedly deleted or misrepresented on Wikipedia – in almost all cases by a group of engaged NKT editors – or these qualified sources have been blocked by them as being “heavily biased”; and for a long time NKT blogs and anonymous websites made by Shugdenpas replaced Wikipedia:Reliable Sources. Now the academic sources are just not mentioned any more or they are presented only marginal, and in a way that it does not interfere with the World-view of NKT. The history and talk pages of Wikipedia, as well as the notices on the Adminboard, offer everybody the chance to explore this for himself. The last notice on the Adminboard can be read here: Users Emptymountains and Truthbody. Other strategies included the sockpuppets of ‘Wisdombuddha’ or multiple accounts fom the same IP. One year ago an editor, who was not involved in editing these articles, gave already a notice on the Administrators’ noticeboard, stating … these users are deleting sourced information and have a clear POV that they’ve conspired to promote on Wikipedia. They are pretty intransigent when it comes to talking about reverting and they show bad faith in editing. I don’t know the intricacies of this dispute, but you don’t need to in order to see how mass deletions of verifiable and reliable information are a bad idea….’ Since then, nothing has really changed and hence this is increasingly becoming a fruitless case where editors who attempt to place any critical views on these pages are being bullied of them by what to all intents and purposes appears to be a dedicated team of NKT editors.
User Empty Mountains actually uses the phrase ‘We say this because...’ (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dorje_Shugden_controversy under the heading ‘proposed restructure’) indicating a coordinated team effort at work on these pages
When a further possible sockpuppet of these individuals, ‘Eyes of Compassion’ was warned about this at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Eyesofcompassion the explanation was given that NKT ‘Buddhist practitioners were all gathered for a Festival in England and hence were independently accessing the internet from the same server’ seemingly demonstrating a concerted and coordinated effort on the part of this team to influence WP content, though each purported individual claimed to be acting ‘independently’. A number of issues have also been raised by editors following WP guidelines for articles these NKT editors contribute to, to be examined by administrators (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/New_Kadampa_Tradition_(2nd_nomination) & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:New_Kadampa_Tradition/Archive_8#kt66_aka_Tenzin_Paljor which states: I worked alongside kt66 on WP for a couple of years, and although he was sometimes furious at himself for having spent so much of his life promoting NKT, when he came here, he learned to balance his opinions carefully with fact. It was mainly due to his efforts that the NKT, DS, KG articles remained reasonably balanced. Of course, now that GKG has told his students to stay away from discussion groups, it is unlikely that his faithful followers would continue to edit and discuss on WP - but it appears this isn't the case. Once more, the said articles are blatantly biased in NKT's favour - so much so that they garner attention as being not much more than promo. material. If you wish to present the NKT, DS, GKG etc in a manner that meets the criteria of an encyclopedia, it is essential that you reflect the facts of these things in an impartial manner. It is apparent that the above editors (Truthsayer62, Truthbody, Atisha’s Cook and Empty Mountains) have a COI and should not be allowed to edit WP articles on these subjects, be it these names or from the same IP under alternative pseudonyms. Since their work on the articles mentioned leads to a clearly imbalanced perspective I am placing the NPOV banners on the NKT page. Moreover, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest#Blocks states: Accounts that appear, based on their edit history, to exist for the sole or primary purpose of promoting a person, company, product, service, or organization in apparent violation of this guideline should be warned and made aware of this guideline. If the same pattern of editing continues after the warning, the account may be blocked. Since these issues have already been raised repeatedly, since a number of the editors named has faced multiple allegations of sock puppetry/ biased editing/ unwarranted banner reversion, non NPOV, and COI, and since the present articles are heavily biased, making little or no mention of the considerable arguments against the NKT and its religio-political activities, as welI as the allegations of sexual abuse and political machinations that are widespread across the internet (see, for example www.newkadampa.com ) and have appeared in various newspapers and periodicals (see previous web ref) I would strongly advise these editors to leave the banner as you are now at a stage where continued editing of said articles will merit your being blocked. I am also alerting administrators to your activities in the interests of neutrality. Empty Mountains reference to ‘Yonteng's edit warring’ is ‘gaming the system’; it is inflammatory and demonstrates a musinderstanding of the term which is defined as: ‘...when contributors, or groups of contributors, repeatedly revert each other's contributions.’ In other words, for edit warring to occur, at least two parties must be involved. In this case, while I am acting alone, Empty Mountains and colleagues, all members of the same religious organisation, are involved in a disagreement over whether the content of the NKT and related pages are neutral in content. EM and colleagues, each of whom have been editing this page for some time, believe they are. I, on the other hand, who have some knowledge of the history of the group but am somewhat inexperienced in WP etiquette believe they are not, principally because of what does not appear on the page rather than what does. In short, this is not ‘my’ edit war; it is ‘ours’. To claim it is mine is to draw attention away from the fact that we are equally responsible for this dispute. There are multiple allegations against the NKT which it would take a long time to delineate. Fortunately, the history of these pages outlines all of the many concerns in full, as anyone who wishes to enquire will see. I am at a disadvantage because I can only place the NPOV banner on the page three times before I fall foul of the 3RR rule. Because my ‘opponents’ are a team of 4 editors, each can revert my banner twice before moderators are alerted. Thus, the NKT team of editors can revert my banners 8 times in a day before questions are raised. Recent assertions of the internet becoming a domain of mob rule rather than one of freedom of speech begin to ring true. Finally, the obliteration of approximately 22 of the 23 allegations I raised concerning the controversial nature of the group, claiming they are appropriately ‘addressed’ without any significant explanation could be construed as an indication of unwillingness to consider alternative views on this article where the main aim is to achieve a neutral point of view. The claim that ‘the majority of allegations are unsubstantiated’ is the viewpoint expressed by the NKT themselves and not their critics, according to whom , if not all of the allegations have been repeatedly substantiated. It is a thoroughly one-sided view
I would like to thank Truthbody, for pointing me to the Obama site ‘Fight the smears’. The remarkable resemblance between it, and the NKTs own ‘Fighting the smears’ page has been noted, indeed the resemblance between the two pages in terms of format, structure and message is almost uncanny. I suppose the only real difference between the two is that President Obama’s campaign was entirely political whereas the NKT’s campaign to clear its good name after widespread criticism of it throughout the International Press and to promote Shugden worship is of an entirely apolitical and solely religious nature (?)
I sincerely hope this helps bring about a more balanced article, Yonteng {{unblock}}Yonteng (talk) 19:32, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- Whoa, think you could be any more wordy? Could you please summarize this using a lot fewer words? I got lost about two sentences in. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Many otters • One hammer • HELP) 19:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- Not sure what else I can say really. I only commented because I was on #wikipedia-en-help. Keep asking, I'm sure someone will get to this. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Many otters • One hammer • HELP) 20:23, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Basically, this is a CoI-these people are using wp to post propaganda for their religious sect unopposed-anyone who posts gets editted out and when i put neutrality banners on it, they 3RR me (theres 4 of them0each can revert twice daily=8 without problems. Outside this group lots of people say it is a cult but on WP, they are squeaky clean_they know the rules Idont so the truth gets lost HELP!!!!
ANI notification
There's another discussion about your editing at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Second_Attempted_Outing. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:21, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
New Kadampa Tradition banners
Sorry for all this rant but this is a serious case of WP abuse by what appears to be an organised gang of editors working to promote a highly controversial relgious sect. Please be patient and read once, slowly {{adminhelp}} As you are probably well aware, Wikipedia policy on Conflict of Interest guidelines state: ‘A Wikipedia conflict of interest (COI) is an incompatibility between the aim of Wikipedia, which is to produce a neutral, reliably sourced encyclopedia, and the aims of an individual editor. COI editing involves contributing to Wikipedia in order to promote your own interests or those of other individuals, companies, or groups. Where advancing outside interests is more important to an editor than advancing the aims of Wikipedia, that editor stands in a conflict of interest......
The COI then lists the following examples of COI:
Campaigning Activities regarded by insiders as simply "getting the word out" may appear promotional or propagandistic to the outside world. If you edit articles while involved with organizations that engage in advocacy in that area, you may have a conflict of interest.
Close relationships Any situation where strong relationships can develop may trigger a conflict of interest. Conflict of interest can be personal, religious, political, academic, financial, and legal. It is not determined by area, but is created by relationships that involve a high level of personal commitment to, involvement with, or dependence upon, a person, subject, idea, tradition, or organization.’
I note that all of the contributing editors who are consistently editing this article, as well as the related Dorje Shugden and Dorje Shugden Controversy and Kelsang Gyatso (the NKT founder) ones are members of the NKT:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Truthbody states: I am a Buddhist in the New Kadampa Tradition and a student of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Atisha%27s_cook states on that page in relating personal experience of a demonstration in the USA organised by Kelsang Gyatso and NKT seniors :’I saw all this myself and I saw and felt the crowd's vitriol’ indicating clear involvement with the Western Shugden Society, a group populated overwhelmingly by NKT members.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Truthsayer62 states: ‘I'm a practitioner of Kadampa Buddhism for about fourteen years’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Emptymountains <info meeting suppression redacted>
All of these editors are therefore clearly members of the New Kadampa tradition as well as being regular contributors to each of the aforementioned articles.
Moreover, a majority of these editors have faced repeated allegations of sock puppetry when editing articles (See for example http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Eyesofcompassion&oldid=226226514 & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Truthsayer62 ) and have on occasions been blocked as a result.
Other contributors (Kt 66, Rudy, Chris Fynn) have consistently raised the issue of the lack of neutrality of these editors (see, for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rudyh01#The_never-ending_story_about_Shugden) and some of these long term valued contributors have abandoned their attempts to balance the articles these NKT editors dominate (ie The New Kadampa Tradition, Dorje Shugden. The Dorje Shugden Controversy, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso). See, for example, http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/wikipedia-dorje-shugdens-enlightened-lineage-or-how-to-make-history/ which states:
For more than one year now Wikipedia:Reliable Sources, like Dreyfus, Kay, von Brück, Mumford or Nebesky-Wojkowitz, as well as other qualified scholarly papers on the history of Shugden worship (and / or the Shugden Controversy / New Kadampa Tradition) have been repeatedly deleted or misrepresented on Wikipedia – in almost all cases by a group of engaged NKT editors – or these qualified sources have been blocked by them as being “heavily biased”; and for a long time NKT blogs and anonymous websites made by Shugdenpas replaced Wikipedia:Reliable Sources. Now the academic sources are just not mentioned any more or they are presented only marginal, and in a way that it does not interfere with the World-view of NKT.
The history and talk pages of Wikipedia, as well as the notices on the Adminboard, offer everybody the chance to explore this for himself. The last notice on the Adminboard can be read here: Users Emptymountains and Truthbody. Other strategies included the sockpuppets of ‘Wisdombuddha’ or multiple accounts fom the same IP. One year ago an editor, who was not involved in editing these articles, gave already a notice on the Administrators’ noticeboard, stating … these users are deleting sourced information and have a clear POV that they’ve conspired to promote on Wikipedia. They are pretty intransigent when it comes to talking about reverting and they show bad faith in editing. I don’t know the intricacies of this dispute, but you don’t need to in order to see how mass deletions of verifiable and reliable information are a bad idea….’ Since then, nothing has really changed and hence this is increasingly becoming a fruitless case where editors who attempt to place any critical views on these pages are being bullied of them by what to all intents and purposes appears to be a dedicated team of NKT editors.
User Empty Mountains actually uses the phrase ‘We say this because...’ (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dorje_Shugden_controversy under the heading ‘proposed restructure’) indicating a coordinated team effort at work on these pages
When a further possible sockpuppet of these individuals, ‘Eyes of Compassion’ was warned about this at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Eyesofcompassion the explanation was given that NKT ‘Buddhist practitioners were all gathered for a Festival in England and hence were independently accessing the internet from the same server’ seemingly demonstrating a concerted and coordinated effort on the part of this team to influence WP content, though each purported individual claimed to be acting ‘independently’.
A number of issues have also been raised by editors following WP guidelines for articles these NKT editors contribute to, to be examined by administrators (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/New_Kadampa_Tradition_(2nd_nomination) & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:New_Kadampa_Tradition/Archive_8#kt66_aka_Tenzin_Paljor which states: I worked alongside kt66 on WP for a couple of years, and although he was sometimes furious at himself for having spent so much of his life promoting NKT, when he came here, he learned to balance his opinions carefully with fact. It was mainly due to his efforts that the NKT, DS, KG articles remained reasonably balanced. Of course, now that GKG has told his students to stay away from discussion groups, it is unlikely that his faithful followers would continue to edit and discuss on WP - but it appears this isn't the case. Once more, the said articles are blatantly biased in NKT's favour - so much so that they garner attention as being not much more than promo. material. If you wish to present the NKT, DS, GKG etc in a manner that meets the criteria of an encyclopedia, it is essential that you reflect the facts of these things in an impartial manner. It is apparent that the above editors (Truthsayer62, Truthbody, Atisha’s Cook and Empty Mountains) have a COI and should not be allowed to edit WP articles on these subjects, be it these names or from the same IP under alternative pseudonyms.
Since their work on the articles mentioned leads to a clearly imbalanced perspective I am placing the NPOV banners on the NKT page. Moreover, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest#Blocks states: Accounts that appear, based on their edit history, to exist for the sole or primary purpose of promoting a person, company, product, service, or organization in apparent violation of this guideline should be warned and made aware of this guideline. If the same pattern of editing continues after the warning, the account may be blocked.
Since these issues have already been raised repeatedly, since a number of the editors named has faced multiple allegations of sock puppetry/ biased editing/ unwarranted banner reversion, non NPOV, and COI, and since the present articles are heavily biased, making little or no mention of the considerable arguments against the NKT and its religio-political activities, as welI as the allegations of sexual abuse and political machinations that are widespread across the internet (see, for example www.newkadampa.com ) and have appeared in various newspapers and periodicals (see previous web ref) I would strongly advise these editors to leave the banner as you are now at a stage where continued editing of said articles will merit your being blocked. I am also alerting administrators to your activities in the interests of neutrality.
Empty Mountains reference to ‘Yonteng's edit warring’ is ‘gaming the system’; it is inflammatory and demonstrates a musinderstanding of the term which is defined as: ‘...when contributors, or groups of contributors, repeatedly revert each other's contributions.’ In other words, for edit warring to occur, at least two parties must be involved. In this case, while I am acting alone, Empty Mountains and colleagues, all members of the same religious organisation, are involved in a disagreement over whether the content of the NKT and related pages are neutral in content. EM and colleagues, each of whom have been editing this page for some time, believe they are. I, on the other hand, who have some knowledge of the history of the group but am somewhat inexperienced in WP etiquette believe they are not, principally because of what does not appear on the page rather than what does. In short, this is not ‘my’ edit war; it is ‘ours’. To claim it is mine is to draw attention away from the fact that we are equally responsible for this dispute
There are multiple allegations against the NKT which it would take a long time to delineate. Fortunately, the history of these pages outlines all of the many concerns in full, as anyone who wishes to enquire will see.
I am at a disadvantage because I can only place the NPOV banner on the page three times before I fall foul of the 3RR rule. Because my ‘opponents’ are a team of 4 editors, each can revert my banner twice before moderators are alerted. Thus, the NKT team of editors can revert my banners 8 times in a day before questions are raised. Recent assertions of the internet becoming a domain of mob rule rather than one of freedom of speech begin to ring true.
Finally, the obliteration of approximately 22 of the 23 allegations I raised concerning the controversial nature of the group, claiming they are appropriately ‘addressed’ without any significant explanation could be construed as an indication of unwillingness to consider alternative views on this article where the main aim is to achieve a neutral point of view. The claim that ‘the majority of allegations are unsubstantiated’ is the viewpoint expressed by the NKT themselves and not their critics, according to whom , if not all of the allegations have been repeatedly substantiated. It is a thoroughly one-sided view
I would like to thank Truthbody, for pointing me to the Obama site ‘Fight the smears’. The remarkable resemblance between it, and the NKTs own ‘Fighting the smears’ page has been noted, indeed the resemblance between the two pages in terms of format, structure and message is almost uncanny. I suppose the only real difference between the two is that President Obama’s campaign was entirely political whereas the NKT’s campaign to clear its good name after widespread criticism of it throughout the International Press and to promote Shugden worship is of an entirely apolitical and solely religious nature (?) I sincerely hope this helps bring about a more balanced article, Yonteng
- Hi. I've blanked your user page - none of that belonged there. I've removed one duplicate banner from here. You appear to have spammed this onto the NKT page too. Duplication is evil. Make up your mind: put it here or there. I'll remove it from there, pending your decision. Meanwhile, please try to make your problems concise. Quoting large slabs of policy rather than linking to it is a particularly bad way of making your point William M. Connolley (talk) 20:27, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- C made some comments on t:NKT. I don't think they matter now, but if you need to refer to them, they are [1] William M. Connolley (talk) 20:38, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- Your rant above is far far too long. It also appears to be a close duplicate of previous text on this same page. Which you were told is too long. You must understand that we lack infinite patience. Please be concise, state your complaint briefly and do not quote large blocks of policy, or even small blocks. I've read WP:COI William M. Connolley (talk) 20:48, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Help requested
- OK, so I've moved this help request down here, where I can see what is going on, and try to help you.
- I see the dialogue above, but frankly I'm still not clear how I can help. Please could you give me a specific question, and we can take it from there. No need for another helpme or adminhelp, I'll be watching for a reply below. Alternatively, you might find it quicker to talk to us live. Chzz ► 20:33, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi Chzz I just think these people either need blocking or the article needs to be markes as permanently non-neutral. They really are manipulating WP for propaganda purposes. Loads of editors have tried to present the otherside but they just get deleted out/bullied until they give up. This is all part of a big anti Dalai Lama propaganda war, covert and overt, but nothing seems to be happening to stem their activities. Repeated requests for article deletion, repeated allegations of sock puppetry, criticism of the practices on this page mooted at elsewhere on the net and yet WP carries on regardless. User emptymountains just reported me for 'outing him' when he even uses his real name (Michael-james) on his user page-they just learned the rules and bend them to their advantage-surely something has to happen??? best wishesYonteng (talk) 20:56, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- You know what? KNOCK IT OFF RIGHT NOW. Stop with the conspiracy nonsense right this instant or I'm blocking you. You will, and I want to make this absolutely clear, you will assume good faith. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:08, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Please just read the thing I posted before you take sides???I think youll find that if numerous editors report these people repeatedly for the same thing (as they have), there is a chance it might be happening. Remember what they say,'Just because you have paranoia it doesnt mean that everyone isnt out to get you!Seriously, i honestly beleive there is substance to the multiple allegations-If you start SHOUTING and threatening to block that doesnt really do anything to help get to the bottom of this. After all, isnt it important that WP can be relid on as a valid and truthful resource? No hard feelingsYonteng (talk) 21:15, 14 May 2009 (UTC) best wishes Yonteng (talk) 21:15, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- Name one other person then. And please provide a diff. Right now, I only see you ranting and raving against them. And nothing personal, but your honest belief isn't sufficient to continue on this path. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:16, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Users Kt66, See section 2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:New_Kadampa_Tradition/Archive_8#kt66_aka_Tenzin_Paljor and Chris Fynn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CFynn You might also take a look at http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/wikipedia-dorje-shugdens-enlightened-lineage-or-how-to-make-history/ Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/New_Kadampa_Tradition_(2nd_nomination) Please take a look at these and they should give you a picture of the other side. You might compare the contents of the WP page on the NKT to newkadampa.com as well!
Rudy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rudyh01#The_never-ending_story_about_Shugden, I hope you have time to look at these things before proceedingYonteng (talk) 21:26, 14 May 2009 (UTC) For your diff see http://info-buddhism.com/#nkt No hard feelingsYonteng (talk) 21:32, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- (following 3 edit conflicts, meh)
- OK, so. There's a huge community of people here; between us, I think we can sort this out. One step at a time.
- Blocking of users - OK, we can do that. First, we need to warn 'em. You can do that yourself, or I can do it, whatever. See Wikipedia:WARN#Warnings_and_notices. For example, if someone has not been neutral, we should put {{subst:uw-npov1}} on their talk page. If they do it again, we can use {{subst:uw-npov2}}, etc. If we use the last one, and they *still* do it, we can ask an admin to block them. We (that is, the community, which includes yourself, myself, the offending party etc) have agreed that this is the best way to proceed. Follow this agreed policy, and we'll do just fine.
- Now, regarding the article. Again, follow procedures. If you suspect that your edit might be controversial, it's best to start a discussion on the article talk page. The intent here is to seek the opinion of the community and reach a consensus. It does work, honestly. Stick to the actual content, with clear, short, policy reasons why something should be added/removed; listen to what others have to say; ignore any personal attacks, and stick to the point. If you can't get an agreement, get more input from others. See WP:DISPUTE for ideas.
- Sock puppetry. OK, so. Again, we have procedures in place for dealing with these problems. A good starting point is Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct.
- I hope that the above will help a little; as I mentioned before, you might find it helpful to talk to us live. If that (java) link doesn't work for you, try this one.
- I hope I can help you to resolve this; best wishes, Chzz ► 21:30, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'd be happy if there would be some progress on this issue as well. Although Yonteng may be a little extreme in seeing some anti-Dalai Lama conspiracy behind all this i think i will have to support at least some of his views. I have been watching the controversies around the NKT and the evolution of the articles on WP for quite some time. In fact, the only reason i ever got to know the NKT, and i assume also the reason most of the people will ever look at their wiki page, IS the host of controversies surrounding them. They are widely considered sort of the black sheep of the (Tibetan) Buddhist community (if justified or not is a different issue). If you look at the NKT page it is evident that the controversies are either not present at all or buried back in the article or in some subordinate clause. Also the main editors opposing Yonteng in the ongoing edit war all seem to have admitted being NKT members which clearly does justify at least the suspicion of a conflict of interest. I will look into this subject a lttle closer now...maybe i can be of some help Andi 3ö (talk) 21:40, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
There are methods for all of this. However, repeated rants about how everyone there has a POV and violating WP:OUTING multiple times will do nothing but get you blocked. Frankly, normally you would be indefinitely blocked for half of the conduct done here. A suggestion would be to head to WP:COIN and file a reasonable calm report discussing the issues. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:49, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Banner on New Kadampa Tradition article
YONTENG - what is wrong with you? for goodness' sake: grow up. stop this ridiculous behaviour! GIVE SOME EXAMPLES OF DISPUTED CONTENT IN THE ARTICLE *BEFORE* RE-ADDING THE NPOV BANNER. if you can't do so, then the banner has no validity. provide *reasoned* examples - not just another rant full of conspiracy theories about "anti-Dalai Lama campaigns" and "teams of NKT editors" and sock-puppetry. all that is just ad hominem, and, frankly, insane. reason your edits, or don't make them. at the monent, you are contributing nothing of value. Atisha's cook (talk) 23:36, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- You be civil too. There's no need for insults. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:52, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
The reasons are fully explained above, principally CoI. best wishes and may the farce be with you! YontenYonteng (talk) 07:14, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Dear Atisha's Cook H I have just posted an explanation of the reason for the banner on the NKT talk page. Hope this helps clarify things a little. G'day!Yonteng (talk) 08:54, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- no, it doesn't. i disagree with your reason and i still believe that you're seeing a conspiracy where there is none. this cannot end well - we both need to assume good faith when editing and neither of us has done this wrt the other up til now. the difference is that you've stated your intention to introduce your POV to the New Kadampa Tradition article, which i've never said is my intention, and which i maintain is *not* my intention. i apologise for shouting earlier, but i'm not made of patience! i honestly think that unless you can change your nind wrt this tradition and the other editors on this article, then you're not going to be able to contribute to it in a neutral way. Atisha's cook (talk) 23:51, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Conflict of interest
Hello, Yonteng. We welcome your contributions, but if you have an external relationship with the people, places or things you have written about on Wikipedia, you may have a conflict of interest (COI). Editors with a conflict of interest may be unduly influenced by their connection to the topic. See the conflict of interest guideline and FAQ for article subjects for more information. We ask that you:
- avoid editing or creating articles about yourself, your family, friends, colleagues, company, organization, clients, or competitors;
- propose changes on the talk pages of affected articles (you can use the {{edit COI}} template)—don't forget to give details of reliable sources supporting your suggestions;
- disclose your conflict of interest when discussing affected articles (see Wikipedia:Conflict of interest § How to disclose a COI);
- avoid linking to your organization's website in other articles (see Wikipedia:Spam § External link spamming);
- do your best to comply with Wikipedia's content policies.
In addition, you are required by the Wikimedia Foundation's terms of use to disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution which forms all or part of work for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation. See Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure.
Also, editing for the purpose of advertising, publicizing, or promoting anyone or anything is not permitted. Thank you. see nkt talk page
- wrt this, please see my comment above, dated 23:51 15th May. Atisha's cook (talk) 15:56, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- also, for my pov on this (COI, NKT editors, anti-NKT editors, etc.), you could see my comments on the New Kadampa Tradition article Talk, under the heading "Kt66" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:New_Kadampa_Tradition#Kt66 (sorry - not sure how to create wikilink to a subsection of a Talk page...) Atisha's cook (talk) 16:05, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yonteng - this is from a summary of an arbitration by Durova to a COIN filed against William M. Connolley here.
- i find the whole discussion there very interesting; i realize that my conduct on New Kadampa Tradition could reasonably be construed as indicating that i've fallen foul of this tendency described by Durova below, and i believe that yours could also, as could some of your statements.
- "...editors who have any vehement POV are prone to construing misconduct into the actions of opposing editors, then once they convince themselves that the other side has breached policies (whether or not it really has), the vehement POVers begin violating policies themselves. Sometimes they violate policies blatantly. Other times they seem to misread policy or fail to appreciate when they apply an unequal standard."
- i hope that in future we can both try to abide by WP:AGF. is it possible for you to assume good faith on my part, and that of other editors on this article? you've stated that you wish only to improve the neutrality of this article (New Kadampa Tradition) - that's also my intention. if you now contribute to it reasonably and collaborate and discuss with other editors, then i will assume that you do so in good faith.
- best wishes, Atisha's cook (talk) 16:27, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
AN3
Please stop putting ill-formatted reports on AN3. If you can't be bothered to work out how to format these things properly, do something else. Besides which, you and Ac are on 1RR parole and the situation is in hand from a 3RR perspective. You don't need an admins attention, you need editors interested in the content William M. Connolley (talk) 21:04, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- Um. And when I said [2] I meant it. 48h William M. Connolley (talk) 21:06, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Dear Willliam I can see from your approach that you are a stickler for the rules-which is great- but this is a dispute over content which, I can see from your approach, is not something that really interests you. And why should it?This is a boring subject for non-specialists. I would like to ask you if you can contact anyone (an admin not an ed) who is of a similar status to yourself who you think might be willing to look into this a little, for the sake of accuracy and NPOV on WP. Finally, I thought the 1RR rule meant I could only place the banners up once-which is what i did. Your application of the rule seem to be a zero RR application??? Please, try to be a little more patient with newbies like myself-WP is a complex medium for people who find Word challenging PeaceYonteng (talk) 08:11, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- [3], [4]. Sorry guv - we're out of patience with you, you've used up your newbie allowance William M. Connolley (talk) 21:07, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yonteng (block log • active blocks • global blocks • autoblocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))
- 94.192.139.167 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
Block message:
violation of 1RR parole at New Kadampa Tradition
- Blocking administrator: William M. Connolley (talk • blocks)
Decline reason: This is not an autoblock; you have been directly blocked for violating your parole and edit-warring. — FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:40, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
My block notice says Ive been autoblocked
WP:Assume Good Faith
(bumped from above) Yonteng - this is from a summary of an arbitration by Durova to a COIN filed against William M. Connolley here.
i find the whole discussion there very interesting; i realize that my conduct on New Kadampa Tradition could reasonably be construed as indicating that i've fallen foul of this tendency described by Durova below, and i believe that yours could also, as could some of your statements.
"...editors who have any vehement POV are prone to construing misconduct into the actions of opposing editors, then once they convince themselves that the other side has breached policies (whether or not it really has), the vehement POVers begin violating policies themselves. Sometimes they violate policies blatantly. Other times they seem to misread policy or fail to appreciate when they apply an unequal standard."
i hope that in future we can both try to abide by WP:AGF. is it possible for you to assume good faith on my part, and that of other editors on this article? you've stated that you wish only to improve the neutrality of this article (New Kadampa Tradition) - that's also my intention. if you now contribute to it reasonably and collaborate and discuss with other editors, then i will assume that you do so in good faith.
best wishes, Atisha's cook (talk) 13:19, 19 May 2009 (UTC) Well i think in truth I will probably not trust you but its nothing personal, its just because of our allegiances. But I can see no reason for us to be rude to one another (Lets leave that to the boys!)I saw someone on the BBC the other day talking about the monstrous personality that the anonymity of the internet can create in contributors. Shall we say, when we get on line, its a bit like Jekyll's potion? All I want is a balanced article that includes a) the good things about the NKT and b)the critical info. If thats what you want, we dont have a problem tBest wishesYonteng (talk) 13:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Conflict of Interest
{{uw-coi}}
This second wp:coi citation comes about as you have consistently not assumed wp:good faith of other editors on the New Kadampa Tradition page, and have accused us of several strange things, most recently accusing me of a "spying campaign"! These kinds of paranoid and ad hominem statements (attacking the editor rather than the edits) seem to indicate that you are the one who has a strong and personal POV against the New Kadampa Tradition and people in it, and, if that is indeed the case, then you should be careful and follow the wp:coi guidelines above when editing this article. Thanks.(Truthbody (talk) 17:40, 19 May 2009 (UTC))
- I've removed the COI tag. It is inappropriate. The tags are there to inform people of policy; since there is already one on this page, another is pointless. Don't tag people unless you know what the tags are for. Moreover, your rationale for asserting COI is very weak; your complaint is different William M. Connolley (talk) 18:49, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
So you consider it appropriate to replace the NPOV tag?? 94.192.139.167 (talk) 19:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'm guessing you must be Y. The answer is: I've expressed no opinion about the tag. And please, will you stop saying everything twice. I obessively watch every page on wiki, you don't need to post the same stuff on my talk page and here as well William M. Connolley (talk) 20:42, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, could you repeat that? (thats a joke.)Yonteng (talk) 20:47, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
3RR
Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war; read about how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.
Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you do not violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.
Dear Yonteng,
Technically, you could be reported for (once again) violating the three revert rule yesterday:
- 1st revert: [5] at 11:03 on 05/20
- 2nd revert: [6] at 04:24 on 05/21
- 3rd revert: [7] at 10:59 on 05/21
Be mindful! is all I'm saying. Emptymountains (talk) 12:15, 22 May 2009 (UTC)