→Thank you and a farewell note: new section |
|||
Line 322: | Line 322: | ||
I've removed your sysop flag. I've always admired you as an editor, admin and crat. I don't agree with all your recent actions, but, as I posted above, I admire the heck out of your courage, communication skills, clear thinking and abhorrence of pussyfooting. I suspect your retirement will indeed be permanent and that, combined with the negativity of the situation, saddens me more than anything. I wish you good luck with all your RL endeavours. But if you're anything like your onwiki self IRL, you don't need any luck. Be well. --[[User:Dweller|Dweller]] ([[User talk:Dweller|talk]]) <small>Become [[Wikipedia:Old Fashioned Wikipedian Values|old fashioned!]]</small> 11:01, 26 June 2019 (UTC) |
I've removed your sysop flag. I've always admired you as an editor, admin and crat. I don't agree with all your recent actions, but, as I posted above, I admire the heck out of your courage, communication skills, clear thinking and abhorrence of pussyfooting. I suspect your retirement will indeed be permanent and that, combined with the negativity of the situation, saddens me more than anything. I wish you good luck with all your RL endeavours. But if you're anything like your onwiki self IRL, you don't need any luck. Be well. --[[User:Dweller|Dweller]] ([[User talk:Dweller|talk]]) <small>Become [[Wikipedia:Old Fashioned Wikipedian Values|old fashioned!]]</small> 11:01, 26 June 2019 (UTC) |
||
:Thanks, for what it is worth, I am glad it was you who did it. <strong style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User:WJBscribe|WJBscribe]] [[User talk:WJBscribe|(talk)]]</strong> 11:02, 26 June 2019 (UTC) |
:Thanks, for what it is worth, I am glad it was you who did it. <strong style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User:WJBscribe|WJBscribe]] [[User talk:WJBscribe|(talk)]]</strong> 11:02, 26 June 2019 (UTC) |
||
== Thank you and a farewell note == |
|||
I wanted to say a huge thank you not only to those who have posted supportive messages here and elsewhere, but also to those who have posted criticisms of my actions. It has been a pleasure editing this project alongside each every one of you, whether we have agreed or not. I hope that those whose advice I have not felt able to follow over the last couple of weeks do think it fell on deaf ears. I have read every word and listened carefully. |
|||
Some have suggested that my recent actions have been out of character. I think that overlooks some of my history on this project. I have always believed more in principles than rules. Some may remember my unblock of Giano during the 2008 ArbCom elections, others my staunch objection to the existence of an off-wiki bureaucrat mailing list, or indeed my strong opposition to certain resysop decisions at [[WP:BN]] that I felt ran contrary to the best interests of the project. It is probably true to say that I have been one of the most "activist" / "interventionist" bureaucrats. Whether that is a good or bad thing I leave to the judgment of others, but I make no apology for it. |
|||
Harassment is a serious issue, and one that has affected me personally in my time editing the project. I have never spoken publicly about the full reasons for my withdrawal from the 2008 ArbCom elections. I did so due to threats I received that actions would be taken against me in the real world to embarrass me and my then employer. I had recently started a new position and was relatively junior, so that was a threat that I could not ignore. I withdrew from the elections and resigned as an admin and bureaucrat. Some months later, when I felt more secure and established at work, I resumed service as an admin and bureaucrat. It has been a matter of great sadness to me to see some suggest that I don't take the issue of harassment seriously or that recent actions by me are supportive of harassment. That is not the case, and I caution people against being overly quick to accept unquestioningly a narrative that has been presented to them. The WMF account of its actions in relation to Fram does not withstand the most cursory scrutiny - it should be treated with utmost suspicion. |
|||
There are two very serious problems facing the community at the moment, and neither ought to be allowed to eclipse the other: |
|||
#'''WMF v community self-governance'''. There is an urgent need to clarify the extent to which WMF is required to defer to community consensus, and the extent to which it must explain its actions and be held accountable for them by local communities. Without this, the project will hemorrhage contributors. Absent sufficient autonomy, wikipedia will simply not be the project that many of us chose to give our time to. The number of staffers would need to rise exponentially to fill the gap. I suggest WMF think long and hard about the value to them of the volunteer time they benefit from. |
|||
#'''Fair process in WMF actions'''. In all judicial or quasi-judicial proceedings, the accused must have basic rights. Those include the right to know the name of their accuser(s), to understand what they are accused of, and to have the opportunity to defend themselves. The accused must also have the right for any public statement about them to clearly identify the misconduct that they were found to have committed, rather than to be subject to vague insinuations and innuendo thrown about from those who claim to speak from a position of authority. Fram has been treated abysmally. The decision of two of my fellow bureaucrats to re-enact a punishment applied by WMF with no respect for basic concepts of fairness was the last straw in convincing me that I could not continue here. |
|||
I would remind everyone that over the last few years I been minimally active on the project, with little time to dedicate to it. Everyone will be fine without me. I also think that it is time for this project to stop relying on old hands in key positions. ArbCom is increasingly comprised of re-elected former Arbs, many bureaucrats (including me) were elected over a decade ago. That's not a good thing. We need fresh blood in key roles. |
|||
I hope that matters are resolved in relation to the two issues that I have identified above such that in future I will feel able to continue contributing to this project, but my days a bureaucrat or administrator are done. <strong style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User:WJBscribe|WJBscribe]] [[User talk:WJBscribe|(talk)]]</strong> 11:05, 26 June 2019 (UTC) |
Revision as of 11:05, 26 June 2019
Typo from over ten years ago?
This is incredibly pointless, but your close of Wikipedia:Requests for BAG membership/Coren noted 23 supports, but AFAICT there are 25? ~ Amory (u • t • c) 17:33, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
- Yep, good spot - looks like I didn't update the tally [1] when I closed it - no automatic tallies back in those days! WJBscribe (talk) 17:49, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
Hello -
I put in a request to have this title unprotected at WP:RPP, and the admin there asked me to ask you about unprotection first, since you were the protecting admin in 2008. I have drafted an article at User:Chubbles/Daniel Brandt; Brandt meets WP:MUSIC and the article I have written is robustly sourced. Would you mind having a look? Our discussion is at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection#Daniel Brandt. Chubbles (talk) 00:13, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- Talk page watcher dropping in to make a quick comment. @Chubbles:, I'd urge you to search for and include more independent references for that article, so that it is obvious the subject not just meets, but really exceeds, minimal notability standards for musicians. There is an excellent reason why that article title is "salted" (the original subject was *not* the musician you are writing about), and it is on the watchlist of a few hundred longtime editors, so any new article creation should be rock-solid. I'm pretty hardline on notability, so I'd suggest you get the opinion of several other editors before proceeding to move this to mainspace.
WJBscribe, apologies for jumping in early. I'd suggest that if you do decide to un-salt, you leave the deleted revisions deleted. I can provide more details as to why if you need them, but I suspect you can figure it out by yourself. Risker (talk) 04:31, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
Hi @Chubbles: and thanks @Risker:. As Risker says, there are good reasons why the article is currently protected against recreation, but the old article was not about the musician. The deleted revisions would stay deleted, but the page could be unprotected to allow recreation. I actually think it is an excellent idea to have an article about someone else with that name. Notability of musicians is not a topic about which I claim any expertise, but Risker is probably correct that some extra eyes would be a good idea on this special case. Aside from anything else, I am reluctant to risk the page being edited to change it from being about the musician to being about the subject of the deleted article after it is unprotected.
Perhaps it is worth posting at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music if that WikiProject is active? If a consensus is in favour of your article being created, I would be happy to unprotect the page. WJBscribe (talk) 17:32, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- I occasionally weigh in at WikiProject Music, and can take it there if you think it decreases the chances of an ugly AfD from people uninterested in the scope of our coverage in music. I've also left comments at RPP - ultimately, I want the solution that results in this article going live (somewhere) with the least amount of drama for myself and any involved admins. Chubbles (talk) 20:29, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- Hi WJBScribe - just to let you know that I completed the page moves very early today (well, technically, late last night my time), and that Chubbles' draft article is now moved to mainspace at the most appropriate article title, Daniel Brandt. Took me a bit longer than I expected - finding archived talk pages was a bit bizarre, and all of the pages were really big. I am probably responsible for the death of a server kitty or two. But it's done. Another weird chapter in Wikipedia history. Risker (talk) 00:49, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Risker: Thanks for sorting. I've semi protected and move protected the page to deter casual mischief and will keep an eye on the page. WJBscribe (talk) 13:01, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
- I believe we discussed this and consensus was not to protect this new page pre-emptively. Samsara 00:30, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
- If you link me to the discussion I’ll take a look and reconsider. The discussion I participated in, which you closed, doesn’t appear to have included consideration of longer term semi protection and I can’t see a more recent discussion at RfPP. Given the particular sensitivities in this individual case, it would take lot to convince me that preemptive protection was unwarranted. WJBscribe (talk) 20:52, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
- That's the one. To remind you: "change Daniel Brandt into a dab - probably not too big a deal. Time would tell if Daniel Brandt (musician) would also need some form of protection." Nobody dissented with that proposal, only the name of the page changed from Daniel Brandt (musician) to Daniel Brandt. So we have discussed it, and you were part of that discussion. Pre-emptive protection is not covered by policy - policy explicitly states that semi, PC and ECP should not be applied pre-emptively, and that doing so is "contrary to the open nature of Wikipedia". I strongly believe that normal users should be given the opportunity to edit this page until (and unless!) this proves infeasible. And perhaps we may discover along the way that some of our fears will evaporate. Samsara 07:52, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'm confused. Protection was suggested in the discussion as a potential outcome for a different title and no one objected? I don't see how this can be described as "consensus was not to protect" this title. There was either no consensus or a tacit consensus that protection may prove needed (on the basis of a proposal that met with no resistance).
I'm familiar with the general policy against pre-emptive protection, but I don't agree that this is pre-emptive. An article of this name has been the subject of sustained problematic editing and the protection is justified on that basis. The move protection is in effect just a continuation of my salting of the page post deletion, designed to prevent recreation of the article about the former subject. The semi protection is intended to reduce the chance casual reinsertion of material about the former subject, or a wholesale rewriting of the article. The protection is not speculative, it reflects my assessment of the particular risks posed by this article in the context of its wider history. In response to your point, leaving the page unprotected has already proved infeasible. The fact that the page history of problematic editing has been deleted, moved and oversighted does not mean that it should be disregarded when considering appropriate steps to protect the subjects of BLPs (and/or, for that matter, Wikipedians). WJBscribe (talk) 16:03, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'm confused. Protection was suggested in the discussion as a potential outcome for a different title and no one objected? I don't see how this can be described as "consensus was not to protect" this title. There was either no consensus or a tacit consensus that protection may prove needed (on the basis of a proposal that met with no resistance).
- I see DB still has the power to cause discord, gnashing of teeth, and disruption. Just like old times, I guess. Glad I missed it. Dlohcierekim (talk) 18:22, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
Your RevDel of your own mistake
Looking at this RevDel action of yours, I don't see any reason this needs to be redacted. Please note, that according to WP:REVDEL#Log redaction, it should not be used merely to cover your won mistakes; and the accusation you made (vandalism to our web site), especially given its immediate redaction, doesn't justify redaction. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 10:25, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
- Agreed, this should be undone. I believe your intent was not to hide your action but to spare the user an otherwise spotless block log, but that is not justification for hiding the entry. An apologetic unblock entry, an apology to the user, and a self-trout are sufficient. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 12:06, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
- Hi both. Old Mishenu, I think the accusation that I used the tool to “cover your won mistakes” (sic) was an unnecessary accusation of bad faith on your part. Both my message to the user concerned and my entry in the log plainly demonstrated that isn’t the case. Amory is closer to the money but the reason for my use of the tool is recorded in the log, “potentially libellous/defamatory”. The rev deleted entry amounted to an accusation that the user concerned had vandalised Wikipedia in a manner that called for a block. That is untrue, and therefore defamatory of the user concerned. I stand by the rev deletion, but do not feel sufficiently strongly about it to want to get into a long argument. If either of you feel strongly enough about the issue that you wish to reverse my action, I will not object. WJBscribe (talk) 11:00, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- (talk page stalker) Without speculating on the motivation, this seems to fall easily in the 'ordinary manner' condition of when not to RevDel logs described in the policy. The rapid retraction in the next log alleviates the first action sufficiently. — xaosflux Talk 16:25, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
G'day,fellow admin Avi
- In order for it to be removable as “potentially libellous/defamatory”, it must be an accusation which a reasonable viewer may believe to be true. A block of an account for on-site activity, followed by an immediate unblock for a reason which clearly indicates the block in question was applied to the wrong user, is clearly not an accusation to be believed. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:00, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
This will either make, or ruin, your day
Wow,that was a tremendous relief: I succeeding in making my personally-conventional two-Non-breaking-space, single vanilla-blank indent at the beginning of a 'graph, --- Note: By request from Jerzy, I am interrupting this conversation. I am his wife. (My full name is Gini Kramer. My contact information is as follows: <redacted> )For the moment, I am typing his dictation. The following paragraphs are Jerzy's dictation.
So, Jerzy is my Wikipedia ID. I am an administrator. I've been an administrator since 2003, 2004 or 2005. At the instigation of user:angela and now I'm 72 and a half and getting pretty daffy. But still understand what my responsibilities as an administrator are. I doubt that I am going to abuse my permissions but I also doubt that it's worth my leaving that possibility open. So probably the first thing worth discussing is downgrading my status at least one level. I'd like to continue editing; it wouldn't hurt to have someone at least occasionally reviewing my edits to see that I haven't done anything unusually stupid, taking into account how routine it is for editors to do something stupid and our ability to bounce back from such occasions. The reason I thought a bureaucrat might be a useful status from the person I appealed for help from is that I'm pretty sure a bureaucrat could do the downgrading of my permissions, and also facilitate the recovery or changing of my password which briefly I thought I had rediscovered but to no avail. I've been logged in with my administrator privilege for longer than I remember; I have the feeling that it used to be necessary to "refresh" it annually, but I suspect it's been over a year and maybe several since I did so. So I conjecture that rule changed. But I'm kind of stuck with an iPad2 that's been dropped, logged in with my admin status in effect. My hard drive on my real computer having probably been recycled though our internet provider is still providing service to our wifi and the wikipedia server understands that my account is in fact the Jerzy account. I went to a library a month or so ago and did some work, and chatted with some kind of live wikipedia helper who instructed me on upgrading my security level on my account. I printed out the procedure at the library and have those instructions somewhere close at hand (though I've forgotten where) and did not act on that recommendation. I've got plenty of projects I'd like to continue on, at least as an editor, even though I don't think I would trust myself as an admin too much longer. The iPad2 is a F'g PITA, and I'm going to need a password reset which perhaps should be executed by you, if that conforms to policy.
The last thing I want to do is stop editing. But the admin powers are probably pointless as a needless risk -- though I'd love to be designated as as "administrator emeritus." I'm not sure what medium I'm going to use from now on but there's no great rush to settle that. Libraries are one possibility; at the moment buying a computer that I can edit comfortably on sounds to me like the sort of ridiculous extravagance my wife would lavish on me if I would let her. But not a socially and ethically and politically acceptable choice in my mind. (We'll have to argue that out for ourselves.)
Maybe the crucial question is: is your lowering my privileges at least to vanilla-registered editor and notifying my wife, Gini Kramer, of my new password an appropriate course of action at this point?
Thanks for reading this tome. I look forward to your response.
--2601:199:C202:287E:7C7F:519E:95D9:67A6 (talk) 00:25, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
- No worries. Sorry to hear about your password difficulties. Unfortunately, I can’t help with password recovery/reset. You need to contact trustandsafety@wikimedia.org by email and they should be able to help you. I can remove your administrator rights if that is still what you would like, but let’s get your account issues sorted first and see how you feel after that. Best, WJBscribe (talk) 13:56, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
I've opened a bureaucrat chat for a current RfA. Your input would be most appreciated at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/RexxS/Bureaucrat chat. Best regards, Maxim(talk) 22:08, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
![]() | |
... with thanks from QAI |
Thank you for expressing what I think, better than I could! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:58, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
Hi
I don't know if you think I'm avoiding the question, but I'm all for transparency. If I'd have opined in the chat, I would have said that I would have closed the RfA as no consensus. That said, I have no problem with Maxim opening a Crat chat. My opinion was contrary to the clear consensus of the Crats, which is also fine. I've been on the minority side in Crat chats before. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:49, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying. I think my point is just that I would have valued more you expressing that view (and understanding your reasoning for it) than I did the "close" of the discussion. You never know, your views may have swayed the outcome... WJBscribe (talk) 13:49, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- I didn't read enough to have an opinion until it was really time to close the discussion. RL is quite tricky at the moment, which is why my FAC work on my gap-toothed hero is now even slower than he was. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 19:16, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
ArbCom 2019 special circular
![]() |
Administrators must secure their accounts
The Arbitration Committee may require a new RfA if your account is compromised.
|
This message was sent to all administrators following a recent motion. Thank you for your attention. For the Arbitration Committee, Cameron11598 02:39, 4 May 2019 (UTC) Template:Z152
Administrator account security (Correction to Arbcom 2019 special circular)
ArbCom would like to apologise and correct our previous mass message in light of the response from the community.
Since November 2018, six administrator accounts have been compromised and temporarily desysopped. In an effort to help improve account security, our intention was to remind administrators of existing policies on account security — that they are required to "have strong passwords and follow appropriate personal security practices." We have updated our procedures to ensure that we enforce these policies more strictly in the future. The policies themselves have not changed. In particular, two-factor authentication remains an optional means of adding extra security to your account. The choice not to enable 2FA will not be considered when deciding to restore sysop privileges to administrator accounts that were compromised.
We are sorry for the wording of our previous message, which did not accurately convey this, and deeply regret the tone in which it was delivered.
For the Arbitration Committee, -Cameron11598 21:04, 4 May 2019 (UTC) Template:Z83
Thank you
Your action on Floq was the right thing to do, and I very strongly thank you for it. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:45, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- My thanks as well. Much appreciated. MarnetteD|Talk 23:49, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- +1 ~Awilley (talk) 23:49, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I won't leave a semi-flippant Spartacus-themed note here, like I did for Bish, because I don't think you did this for Spartacus-type reasons. I think you did it because you simply believe it was the right thing to do. An honourable thing to do, and putting much more than I did on the line. A pleasure to share the website with you. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:51, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- And it is my honor to be here as well--with you, Floq, and with you, WJBScribe. And Bish, and a bunch of others including NihonJoe. I love all of you old-timers. Drmies (talk) 00:20, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- What was the point of wrestling Jimbo for self-governance only to lose it to "WMF Trust and Safety", whoever they are... Btw, who came up with such an Orwellian name? WJBscribe (talk) 00:22, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- I wondered the same thing myself. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:44, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- What was the point of wrestling Jimbo for self-governance only to lose it to "WMF Trust and Safety", whoever they are... Btw, who came up with such an Orwellian name? WJBscribe (talk) 00:22, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- And it is my honor to be here as well--with you, Floq, and with you, WJBScribe. And Bish, and a bunch of others including NihonJoe. I love all of you old-timers. Drmies (talk) 00:20, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- +1 Excellent move. -FASTILY 00:31, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
WJBscribe, for your courage and integrity, I salute you! El_C 02:37, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
Thank you. Yngvadottir (talk) 04:20, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- And thanks from me too, WJBscribe. ---Sluzzelin talk 08:55, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Allow me to add my voice to the many above. Thank you! Lepricavark (talk) 12:42, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
We've never met, as far as I know, but your name now, for me, will be one that I hold in respect and will be synonymous with fairness, integrity, and courage. Thank you. CassiantoTalk 14:15, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
Huzzah for a champion of those who care enough to do it for free. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:57, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
For services rendered
![]() |
The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar | |
You are a brave person, and I respect that. I hope something good comes out of all of this. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:42, 13 June 2019 (UTC) |
A barnstar for you!
![]() |
The Admin's Barnstar |
Thank you for giving the sysop back to Floq. Oshawott 12 ==()== Talk to me! 00:44, 13 June 2019 (UTC) |
Another barnstar for you!
![]() |
The Bureaucrat's Barnstar |
For standing up for the community in the face of personal cost, as well as your firm commitment to accountability, thank you, WJBscribe. starship.paint (talk) 01:07, 13 June 2019 (UTC) |
A barnstar for you!
![]() |
The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar | |
"I regard myself to be a servant of the community, not the WMF." ~WJBscribe [2] Benjamin (talk) 06:43, 13 June 2019 (UTC) |
Thank you for your action, and for that rationale, WJBscribe. --bonadea contributions talk 12:50, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
A barnstar for you!
![]() |
The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar |
For defending our community values! Randykitty (talk) 08:50, 13 June 2019 (UTC) |
A barnstar for you!
Your recent actions
My goodness I admire your guts, clear-headedness and the common decency you showed when referring yourself to Arbcom. I definitely wouldn't have granted the resysop (you probably knew that anyway) and I am uncomfortably unsure if I really agree with it in policy terms, but that doesn't mean I don't applaud it. For however long it lasts, I'm proud to be your colleague and wish I knew more people like you in real life. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:55, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for standing up for what's right. Jonathunder (talk) 18:41, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
The Cosmic Barn(ard's)star
For your awe-inspiring resysop of Floquenbeam.
67.164.113.165 (talk) 02:22, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
A beer for you!
![]() |
Hopefully you don't need it, but in case you do...
I admire people who do what's right even if it's not necessarily what's "supposed to" happen, or what's popular. Frood 22:23, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
What happened
To me it looks like ArbCom or one of their members felt it would be too controversial to sanction Fram for incivility, so they passed the buck to WMF. They hoped that “secret evidence” could be cited to make people think Fram was a horrible person, but this scheme seems to have backfired, spectacularly. I’m just shaking my head at the stupidity of it all. Thank you for your service. Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).Jehochman Talk 23:51, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think we know enough to draw that conclusion and I prefer to AGF where possible. However, now that the theory is gaining traction I think it's important to
diffusedefuse it. It ought to be straightforward for current ArbCom members (and indeed one who recently resigned) to confirm that they did not contact the WMF Truth & Safety team regarding Fram prior to the Office ban being implemented... WJBscribe (talk) 10:48, 24 June 2019 (UTC)- Are you sure that you want to diffuse that theory rather than defuse it? Personally I would have thought that was one of the theories worth defusing, or at least worth misdirecting/distracting people away from. BTW the London meetup is only a couple of weeks away, any chance of you joining us there? ϢereSpielChequers 12:51, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, indeed - well spotted. WJBscribe (talk) 15:03, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- WP:DIFFUSINGCONFLICT. EEng 10:54, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, indeed - well spotted. WJBscribe (talk) 15:03, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- Worm has reported that the Committee didn’t start this fiasco and he is not aware of any Arb who might have. I suppose we need to ask each one to confirm that this wasn’t malice. The AGF conclusion is than WMF staff are inexperienced, lacking legal or cybersecurity expertise. They’re out of their depth and WMF will have to be much more careful in the future. A great mystery is why FloNight (talk · contribs) didn’t warn them off, or maybe she did. Jehochman Talk 13:02, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- Are you sure that you want to diffuse that theory rather than defuse it? Personally I would have thought that was one of the theories worth defusing, or at least worth misdirecting/distracting people away from. BTW the London meetup is only a couple of weeks away, any chance of you joining us there? ϢereSpielChequers 12:51, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- I think we're quite capable of causing our own mess on Wikipedia (c.f. recent security announcements) without getting the WMF involved. I'm a little disappointed that you're pushing for some sort of conspiracy theory here Jehochman. WormTT(talk) 13:07, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- Given that one arb has already publicly confirmed that they "discussed Fram with the WMF T&S team" prior to the ban, I'm not sure "conspiracy theory" is a fair accusation. 28bytes (talk) 13:59, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- If it wasn’t an Arbitrator, just ask your peers to say so. If WMF weren’t invited, then the story will be WMF assuming ArbCom’s role. As Carcharoth has suggested elsewhere, the proper response would be for the arbitrators to resign en mass. Jehochman Talk 14:13, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- Jehochman and everyone here. I'm saddened by this whole thing - though I do get where you're coming from. My understanding is that it wasn't just one individual who had raised concerns with the foundation, but I do not know the details of the individuals that have made the complaints. If any arbitrator did so, they would have done so as a member of the community. One of the points that has come up is the idea that the community has no method to handling on-wiki hostilities privately - and actually, that's true. It goes against the mindset of Wikipedians, and this discussion exemplifies it.
- You are looking for someone to take responsibility for getting Fram banned. I get that, I really do - the idea of taking responsibility for accusations and allowing someone to rebut with evidence. And from there when it comes down to it, you want to be able to balance the scales, work out who was more valuable to the encyclopedia. We see it regularly in terms like "net positive", or labelling someone's work as trash.
- Perhaps it's time to change that mindset. I don't know. What I do know is that I've been told, multiple times, by many editors, that they were leaving Wikipedia because of the way they've been treated by other individuals. Wikipedia was an experiment, using a social group to create the "sum of all human knowledge". We've built our own rules and our own walled garden of how to behave. This whole case is making me take a step back and look at the bigger picture - are we behaving how we would expect to in society? Have our cultural norms fallen that far from real life cultural norms?
- There are bigger questions here than one person's ban. I'm interested in working out the answers to those questions. WormTT(talk) 15:38, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- Let's talk about good practice. (1) I don't want somebody from the community to be singled out. It actually doesn't matter who complained, as long as it wasn't an arbitrator. (2) If a complaint comes to WMF, if it involved legal issues, such as criminal behavior, sexual harassment, racial discrimination, or something similar, I want that to be handled by WMF legal staff. I don't want it handled by social media specialists a few years out of university. I want licensed lawyers involved. (3) If WMF gets a confidential complaint about an abusive administrator or editor related to their edits on wiki, they should hand it off the ArbCom with all the evidence but without the names of the complainants. What to do depends upon the verifiable evidence. It doesn't matter who submits the diffs; the diffs speak for themselves. (4) WMF should absolutely not create an alternative pathway to avoid ArbCom. We don't want some guy from Germany who hasn't edited en-wiki for over five years and isn't even a native English speaker to try to determine what language is abusive, and what isn't. The nuanced analysis of that problem is ideal for ArbCom.
- If an arbitrator initiated this debacle, that would draw their judgment into question and might require them to resign. I am concerned that arbitrators heard about this wreck as it was happening and didn't strenuously warn WMF that they were about to drive off a cliff. Maybe they did, and WMF refused to listen. Either way we have work to do to get everybody on the same page, following good practices. Jehochman Talk 15:56, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Notice
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Edit warring and lack of consensus-seeking at Wikipedia:Office actions. Anne drew (talk) 22:13, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
A barnstar for you!
![]() |
The Special Barnstar |
For acting when the time is ripe :) [3] starship.paint (talk) 05:21, 26 June 2019 (UTC) |
Thanks for everything.
Out of all the names that have resigned, I'm most sorry to see yours become one of one of them. I hope that time will heal this wound, but I know the odds of that happening aren't great. Thanks for all you've done, the years of service and, on a personal note, for granting my rename back in 2008, when another 'crat tried to block it for personal reasons. Best of luck for the future, Will. Promethean (talk) 08:07, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
- Seconded. The project will be worse off without you. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:11, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
![Die Fliege](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Fly.gif)
![]() | |
cornflowers | |
---|---|
... with thanks from QAI |
- Black day, loosing the best - as I said to Boing already. Take some flowers on your way, miss you, miss you, miss you. I woke up this morning thinking that you deserve Impact, and will give it to you when there's more room here, - first flowers then cherry. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:35, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for all you've done for Wikipedia. I wish that you would edit again even if not intending to recover previous privileges. Although I've been following it from a bird's eye, this whole affair blew way out of proportions to me. However, I realize that I have much less investment and involvement in the project than all those who recently resigned. Remains to hope for deescalation and perhaps more new admins to compensate soon ("la releve")... —PaleoNeonate – 08:38, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
- I don't believe it was "out of proportion". The installation of a secret police which you can't appeal deserves strong opposition, because it kills the spirit of community, no less. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:18, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
“ | A kangaroo court is a court that ignores recognized standards of law or justice, and often carries little or no official standing in the territory within which it resides. The term may also apply to a court held by a legitimate judicial authority who intentionally disregards the court's legal or ethical obligations. The defendants in such courts are often denied access to legal representation and in some cases, proper defence and the right of appeal. | ” |
— Various, English Wikipedia |
- Ring any bells? Promethean (talk) 09:31, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
![]() | |
Thank you for your impact | |
---|---|
defending the principles and values of the community! |
- ... as announcd above --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:43, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
- ... Sorry! Just empathizing with the sentiment. Promethean (talk) 09:49, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Sure, but for perspective: here are the internal processes of a private entity (including arbcom), vs the legal office dealing with real-world legal issues (including as necessary, providing information to courts while attempting to preserve confidentiality). Real courts (and more powerful political kangaru courts) affect lives. This affects access to a private website (and virtual avatars, accounts). But I understand the frustration (probably not fully) and will respectfully stop to debate about this after this message... —PaleoNeonate – 09:55, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
- The 'real world' is a varied place, and while some can find a legal warrant or precedent in some systems for the WMF's usurpation of what most think is an ARBCOM matter, others will recall that Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the impeccable neutral Israeli NGO B'tselem, and numerous legal scholars agree that the 99% conviction rate of military courts in the West Bank for offences from terrorism to stone throwing, marrying a foreigner without a permit, or having a distant relative who works for the Hamas administration (which invalidates permission to take up one's Fulbright scholarship) draw on 'evidence' given by secret services that is available neither to the accused nor their lawyers. Such systems are intrinsically open to abuse, and documented cases of such abuse are very extensive. Most editors here will recall less controversial stories closer to our native bone. If the intent loudly declared for these innovations is to make Wikipedia 'comfortable' for all, that kind of frustrating analogy should have been present to the SF bureaucrats as it certainly is to the overwhelming number of arbs and editors here who, as writers, are exposed to a far wider cultural and political range of historical events - which arbs to must familiarize themselves with to adjudicate on many conflicts that arise over a very variegated article diapason,- than is evidently the case with the employees at T&S. No legal move of this nature should constrain workers to feel pushed into a serious ethical dilemma, as has happened here.Nishidani (talk) 10:21, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
- Such a sad day, I consider you to be of one of the best admins/'crats the project/foundation has ever had, Anyway thank you for your service here, I hope one day you return, Take care and I wish you all the best, Thanks, –Davey2010Talk 11:00, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
Sorry to see you go
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Star_of_Sierra_Leone.jpg/249px-Star_of_Sierra_Leone.jpg)
![]() |
Thanks for your service |
"Dark times lie ahead of us, and there will be a time when we must choose between what is right and what is easy." – some Irish bloke
– filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 09:52, 26 June 2019 (UTC) |
+1. This sucks. –xenotalk 10:01, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
Sad to see you go. Shine on. El_C 10:13, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
+1. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:15, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
+1. –Davey2010Talk 11:01, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
Worst thing I've ever done on Wikipedia
I've removed your sysop flag. I've always admired you as an editor, admin and crat. I don't agree with all your recent actions, but, as I posted above, I admire the heck out of your courage, communication skills, clear thinking and abhorrence of pussyfooting. I suspect your retirement will indeed be permanent and that, combined with the negativity of the situation, saddens me more than anything. I wish you good luck with all your RL endeavours. But if you're anything like your onwiki self IRL, you don't need any luck. Be well. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:01, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks, for what it is worth, I am glad it was you who did it. WJBscribe (talk) 11:02, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
Thank you and a farewell note
I wanted to say a huge thank you not only to those who have posted supportive messages here and elsewhere, but also to those who have posted criticisms of my actions. It has been a pleasure editing this project alongside each every one of you, whether we have agreed or not. I hope that those whose advice I have not felt able to follow over the last couple of weeks do think it fell on deaf ears. I have read every word and listened carefully.
Some have suggested that my recent actions have been out of character. I think that overlooks some of my history on this project. I have always believed more in principles than rules. Some may remember my unblock of Giano during the 2008 ArbCom elections, others my staunch objection to the existence of an off-wiki bureaucrat mailing list, or indeed my strong opposition to certain resysop decisions at WP:BN that I felt ran contrary to the best interests of the project. It is probably true to say that I have been one of the most "activist" / "interventionist" bureaucrats. Whether that is a good or bad thing I leave to the judgment of others, but I make no apology for it.
Harassment is a serious issue, and one that has affected me personally in my time editing the project. I have never spoken publicly about the full reasons for my withdrawal from the 2008 ArbCom elections. I did so due to threats I received that actions would be taken against me in the real world to embarrass me and my then employer. I had recently started a new position and was relatively junior, so that was a threat that I could not ignore. I withdrew from the elections and resigned as an admin and bureaucrat. Some months later, when I felt more secure and established at work, I resumed service as an admin and bureaucrat. It has been a matter of great sadness to me to see some suggest that I don't take the issue of harassment seriously or that recent actions by me are supportive of harassment. That is not the case, and I caution people against being overly quick to accept unquestioningly a narrative that has been presented to them. The WMF account of its actions in relation to Fram does not withstand the most cursory scrutiny - it should be treated with utmost suspicion.
There are two very serious problems facing the community at the moment, and neither ought to be allowed to eclipse the other:
- WMF v community self-governance. There is an urgent need to clarify the extent to which WMF is required to defer to community consensus, and the extent to which it must explain its actions and be held accountable for them by local communities. Without this, the project will hemorrhage contributors. Absent sufficient autonomy, wikipedia will simply not be the project that many of us chose to give our time to. The number of staffers would need to rise exponentially to fill the gap. I suggest WMF think long and hard about the value to them of the volunteer time they benefit from.
- Fair process in WMF actions. In all judicial or quasi-judicial proceedings, the accused must have basic rights. Those include the right to know the name of their accuser(s), to understand what they are accused of, and to have the opportunity to defend themselves. The accused must also have the right for any public statement about them to clearly identify the misconduct that they were found to have committed, rather than to be subject to vague insinuations and innuendo thrown about from those who claim to speak from a position of authority. Fram has been treated abysmally. The decision of two of my fellow bureaucrats to re-enact a punishment applied by WMF with no respect for basic concepts of fairness was the last straw in convincing me that I could not continue here.
I would remind everyone that over the last few years I been minimally active on the project, with little time to dedicate to it. Everyone will be fine without me. I also think that it is time for this project to stop relying on old hands in key positions. ArbCom is increasingly comprised of re-elected former Arbs, many bureaucrats (including me) were elected over a decade ago. That's not a good thing. We need fresh blood in key roles.
I hope that matters are resolved in relation to the two issues that I have identified above such that in future I will feel able to continue contributing to this project, but my days a bureaucrat or administrator are done. WJBscribe (talk) 11:05, 26 June 2019 (UTC)