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:Thanks, again. [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas#top|talk]]) 01:46, 20 May 2013 (UTC) |
:Thanks, again. [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas#top|talk]]) 01:46, 20 May 2013 (UTC) |
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== Unblocked == |
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Despite the fact that you explicitly said that you did not wish to be unblocked, I have unblocked you, as I see no reason to believe that doing so will lead to any problematic editing. This is due to My76Strat calling my attention to your case, and, having read your messages above, i fully agree with him/her. Unfortunately, by the time I got My76Strat's message, there were only a few hours of your block left, so in practice it won't make much difference, but I have gone ahead anyway. On a separate issue, I see that Qworty has now been banned. [[User:JamesBWatson|JamesBWatson]] ([[User talk:JamesBWatson|talk]]) 09:56, 20 May 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 09:56, 20 May 2013
Blocked
{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}
, but you should read the guide to appealing blocks first. JamesBWatson (talk) 15:27, 13 May 2013 (UTC)Regarding the Syrian civil war human rights section in the SAF article, I do not believe it was necessary to remove the material, which does provide more details about the SAF. While there were two sections created in the SAF article, did you consider merging all the material in the one section? Regards Buckshot06 (talk) 00:21, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- No, I did not consider merging it because it was a straight copy and paste job from another article. If the editor is interested in actually writing about the subject and adding content in the proper section, then they should do so, and the discussion on talk explained the problem. The original edit summary was blank and no message was left on talk indicating its origin, so it continues to violate our content use policies siince it lacks attribution. Per WP:CWW, "If material is used without attribution, it violates the licensing terms under which it has been provided, which in turn violates the Reusers' rights and obligations clause of Wikipedia's copyrights policy." Unfortunately, this editor has a very long history of IDHT that goes far beyond the one week of editing you see on their contribution history. This is not a new editor and they will not listen to anyone. Viriditas (talk) 00:34, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Women's studies
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
- Thanks, User:HuskyHuskie. Did you see Makers? I don't think the argument against the specialization of the disciplines is equivalent to the argument against studying women and their history, nor do I think it is misguided. While I support increased interdisciplinarity (for example, women's literature, or folk medicine) I don't see how this could be problem. But I'm sure you'll explain to me why you think it is. Viriditas (talk) 03:05, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- Academia, which is where the greatest integration should exist, is becoming the most Balkanized part of American life
I really don't see it that way. Historically, academia has not been known for "integration" until the 1970s, and even then, in very small areas. See Consilience for where we should be today but aren't. I really don't see how gyno-history presents a problem for history, this is integration. Viriditas (talk) 21:15, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- Wow, I haven't read that book (Consilence) before, but reading the Wikipedia article makes me think that my take on this issue would be more likely to be endorsed by Wilson. "Unity of knowledge" to me says that, when teaching, say, the history of medicine, that you discuss all relevant contributions together, in the same class. A course (or even a single lecture) on "black pioneers in medicine" or "great women in medical history" is antithetical to the notion of unity--it's holding up something as separate that should be part of the entire fabric. That fabric should be woven as one piece. The current desire to balkanize various fields by who did what (by race or gender or nationality) is a repugnant to the notion of unity as was the practice of excluding individuals who were not white males.
- I can't believe so many people fought for so long to overturn the separate but equal doctrine only to now turn around and expect it to be codified.
- Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree. HuskyHuskie (talk) 00:52, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- Husky Huskie, the reason I asked you if you had seen Makers: Women Who Make America (all three hours are available to view for free online) is because this documentary shows the opposite of what you claim. These women (and others like them throughout the world) did not argue for separate but equal, but to be treated as equals among their male colleagues. The reason we highlight black pioneers in medicine or great women in medical history is because for the majority of our history, these people have been ignored. I'm curious why you don't understand this. Please watch all three hours of Makers and find me one thing about the women's movement you actually dispute. Viriditas (talk) 01:24, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- I do understand that these groups were excluded--no one could possibly deny that. I do understand the need for the civil rights movement and the women's movement. I lived through the civil rights movement, and was a supporter.
- Husky Huskie, the reason I asked you if you had seen Makers: Women Who Make America (all three hours are available to view for free online) is because this documentary shows the opposite of what you claim. These women (and others like them throughout the world) did not argue for separate but equal, but to be treated as equals among their male colleagues. The reason we highlight black pioneers in medicine or great women in medical history is because for the majority of our history, these people have been ignored. I'm curious why you don't understand this. Please watch all three hours of Makers and find me one thing about the women's movement you actually dispute. Viriditas (talk) 01:24, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- The matter that I am not making clear, apparently, is not the question of whether or not there were wrongs in the past. The question is, what would be the best solution to the problem? I don't happen to believe that segregation--of any kind--is the best solution. HuskyHuskie (talk) 02:08, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing any segregation. Could you watch Makers and show me the segregation? Gyno-history (women's history) is part of social history. There is nothing wrong with it. Viriditas (talk) 02:47, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- Segregation means to divide groups up, n'est-ce pas? Having women's history taught separately from "regular" history is dividing up, what (I believe) should be taught as one, unified history.
- I'm not seeing any segregation. Could you watch Makers and show me the segregation? Gyno-history (women's history) is part of social history. There is nothing wrong with it. Viriditas (talk) 02:47, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- The matter that I am not making clear, apparently, is not the question of whether or not there were wrongs in the past. The question is, what would be the best solution to the problem? I don't happen to believe that segregation--of any kind--is the best solution. HuskyHuskie (talk) 02:08, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- The statement "there's nothing wrong with it" is a judgement to which you are perfectly well entitled. I won't even say you're wrong. But I've drawn a different conclusion, and I believe in a unified approach to academic disciplines. I also believe that--in the very long run--the current segregated approach will yield less respect for the important role played by many women and minorities than would have been the case if their stories had been integrated into the main curriculum. HuskyHuskie (talk) 05:37, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- History is currently broken down into subfields, with women's history listed under social history. You should be criticizing reductionism, not women's history. Academia has fought against the systems approach, preferring reductionism instead. Holistic perspectives only became popular in the 1960s and 1970s. It seems very odd to me for you to criticize one specific subfield of history instead of reductionism. How would women's history look different if you were in charge? Viriditas (talk) 06:43, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- Your point is well taken, and my own prejudices are betrayed. I've never been a big fan of social history, though my initial reponse (many decades ago) was in large measure due to my perception at the time that my history professors who emphasized social history appeared to be doing so to further their own (contemporary political) agendas. I recognize the impracticality of delving into the total depths of human history in a comprehensive approach, but (and I realize we're just talking history here--there are other areas of "womens studies") I have always favored history being taught with natural, chronological divisions. Yes, I recognize that sometimes the natural chronological divisions will differ, depending on whether one is following political trends or social trends, but one way or another, that is my general preference.
- I guess part of my hangup still comes down to the matter of confusing academic disciplines with political agendas. I see the efforts of the suffragettes as part of the panorama of American history, not part of some political campaign. Obviously, history eventually comes up to the present, and the twain shall meet whether I wish them to or not. But ultimately, I feel that the desire to separate history into the history of groups can only serve to keep us divided. And, judging from many persons that I know in the field, that is exactly the agenda being pursued. HuskyHuskie (talk) 07:07, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- If our job is to unify knowledge, the we must change the way we treat both the chronological and social context. Suffrage, in your example, is the daughter topic, which starts with the history of voting rights. However, the history of suffrage is primarily a political and social history. It was not reactionary, but revolutionary in nature, involving many political agendas that challenged the status quo. By acknowledging this state of affairs, I am not furthering a political agenda. If one were a reactionary who believed women belong in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant, without a voice and without a vote, then one might believe that there is a political agenda at work. Conservatism, for example, is inherently reactionary, and it's very possible that a student holding these beliefs would feel like their professor was promoting a political agenda if their own personal beliefs conflicted with the philosophy of ideas, values, and ethics found in the school curriculum. As you well know, the social history you react strongly against is really people's history, and people's history is inherently a history of transformation, the making of a new order out of an older, chaotic order that no longer serves the individual nor the group. And history, if it is anything at all, is a history of change and mutation, a revolution of both the individual thinking mind and the body politic seeking to find common, middle ground between the revolutionary and the reactionary, comprising both, in a natural but balanced, unified opposition. Viriditas (talk) 01:52, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- By creating an ostensibly hypothetical situation which given your terms cannot help but be applied directly to me, you have assigned to me the belief that women should remain barefoot and pregnant. This is simply not true; there are many paths by which one could come to the conclusions I have, but you have chosen to presume that one can only get where I am by virtue of being a Neanderthal. I had thought our exchange might be of some value, but now I have to wonder if the only purpose, from your perspective, was to have an amusing way to pass your block. Well, I hope you've enjoyed your opportunity to chat with a caveman; I'll be on my way now, thank you. HuskyHuskie (talk) 02:16, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- Why not offer me a counterexample? Did you watch Makers, the three hour documentary? It supports what I'm saying. It's hardly controversial to note that the primary opponents to women's history are conservative reactionaries. Viriditas (talk) 02:36, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- While Makers may well be an excellent production, my life is far too busy to spend three hours watching a program just to satisfy someone who believes I wish to oppress women. Bye-bye, V. HuskyHuskie (talk) 02:41, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- You said that only people with political agendas support women's history. What is this political agenda? The proposition that equal rights for women is a natural function of a historic struggle by the oppressed. You wish to deny this struggle in the same way as Phyllis Schlafly. I suppose you are angry because I'm right, not because I'm wrong. Viriditas (talk) 03:01, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- While Makers may well be an excellent production, my life is far too busy to spend three hours watching a program just to satisfy someone who believes I wish to oppress women. Bye-bye, V. HuskyHuskie (talk) 02:41, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- Why not offer me a counterexample? Did you watch Makers, the three hour documentary? It supports what I'm saying. It's hardly controversial to note that the primary opponents to women's history are conservative reactionaries. Viriditas (talk) 02:36, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- By creating an ostensibly hypothetical situation which given your terms cannot help but be applied directly to me, you have assigned to me the belief that women should remain barefoot and pregnant. This is simply not true; there are many paths by which one could come to the conclusions I have, but you have chosen to presume that one can only get where I am by virtue of being a Neanderthal. I had thought our exchange might be of some value, but now I have to wonder if the only purpose, from your perspective, was to have an amusing way to pass your block. Well, I hope you've enjoyed your opportunity to chat with a caveman; I'll be on my way now, thank you. HuskyHuskie (talk) 02:16, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- If our job is to unify knowledge, the we must change the way we treat both the chronological and social context. Suffrage, in your example, is the daughter topic, which starts with the history of voting rights. However, the history of suffrage is primarily a political and social history. It was not reactionary, but revolutionary in nature, involving many political agendas that challenged the status quo. By acknowledging this state of affairs, I am not furthering a political agenda. If one were a reactionary who believed women belong in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant, without a voice and without a vote, then one might believe that there is a political agenda at work. Conservatism, for example, is inherently reactionary, and it's very possible that a student holding these beliefs would feel like their professor was promoting a political agenda if their own personal beliefs conflicted with the philosophy of ideas, values, and ethics found in the school curriculum. As you well know, the social history you react strongly against is really people's history, and people's history is inherently a history of transformation, the making of a new order out of an older, chaotic order that no longer serves the individual nor the group. And history, if it is anything at all, is a history of change and mutation, a revolution of both the individual thinking mind and the body politic seeking to find common, middle ground between the revolutionary and the reactionary, comprising both, in a natural but balanced, unified opposition. Viriditas (talk) 01:52, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
That is to say, an agenda to keep us divided? Carptrash (talk) 07:13, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- I do believe that there are some who favor that, yes. HuskyHuskie (talk) 22:49, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
Response to Collect
- User:Collect wrote: Unrelated, entirely different continent.. It is rare that people on entirely different continents, editing in the same timeframe, are the same person.
The two editors never edited within the same timeframe, they edited more than two weeks apart. Not that it matters, but why did you mischaracterize these events? Viriditas (talk) 20:28, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Message for JamesBWatson
User:JamesBWatson, thanks for modifying the ANI report. Your sense of fairness should be commended. Viriditas (talk) 20:32, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Message for Peacemaker67
- No doubt 3RR has been breached, although neither editor has properly engaged in discussion on the article talk page.
That's not correct, User:Peacemaker67. I contacted the user about his edits on his talk page before I ever touched NATO bombing of Yugoslavia. I contacted the user on their talk page at 22:59, 10 May, and notified them of your revert. I also explained the revert and pointed to several policies and guidelines in my response.[2] My first edit to the article did not occur until a day later at 19:16, 11 May 2013,[3] after which the user had once again ignored my message on their talk page and reverted your edits.
Further, it needs to be noted that I originally welcomed the user on 30 April,[4] two days after they first created their account and began editing.[5] There was no response to my welcome. On May 9, I left multiple messages indicating problems with their edits and the reasons for my reverts.[6] The user ignored my responses and then proceeded to dishonestly claim on every talk page that they didn't understand why their edits had been reverted and demanded an explanation. When I gave them an explanation for a second and a third time, they ignored those responses and continued reverting, all the while starting multiple malformed RfCs on different articles. To further compound this kind of dishonesty, the user continued to make false claims about the discussion on various talk pages and make edits that did not match the discussion. Recently, the user has come out and admitted that they were being purposefully unreasonable for shits and giggles.[7]
What's so interesting about this kind of "unique" disruption, is that this is exactly what Festermunk (talk · contribs) did to User:Carolmooredc on Talk:RT (TV network) before he was indefinitely blocked. Like Gobbleygook, Festermunk would start a discussion, refuse to recognize any of the points made, and then move quickly to file an RFC. To quote Carolmooredc:
Festermunk is requesting an RfC on a topic he refused to address in the above section...The bottom line issue is that User:Festermunk repeatedly has added negative information to the controversy and other sections while deleting neutral and positive information from various sections with questionable excuses. After Festermunk was blocked for edit warring on this article, a couple other editors and I made it more NPOV by cleaning up the WP:Undue controversy section and adding more NPOV material. As soon as Festermunk returned to this article he reverted most of our changes in a series of edits, which were reverted back in this one edit by another editor to the more NPOV version. He then asked for Arbitration and I took it to WP:Dispute Resolution here where he steadfastly defended such editing habits. At the conclusion he again reverted back to his version of the Controversy section which I reverted here. He's now beginning to engage in fairly obvious WP:Synthesis...[8]
If one were to remove "Festermunk" and replace it with "Gobbleygook" in the above, it would be indistinguishable. Please notice the obsession with Russia-related topic articles is shared across these two accounts, including their penchant for editing media, journalism, and Syria-related articles. Combine this with the shared IDHT, the same edit warring, the same misuse of maintenance tags, the same obsession with removing positive content and adding negative material, the same, identical additions of polarizing discourse (X is left, Y is progressive, Z is socialist) to BLP articles using less than RS and it's clear that the odds are against these two people being separate users. In fact, one would find it very difficult to defend the argument that these are two different editors.
SPI is not immune from mistakes or from being gamed by users with technical expertise. At the end of the day, it isn't technical proficiency that helps identify sock puppets, but behavioral pattern matching. Not every admin or clerk is able to do this because they don't have the time to invest in the process. Viriditas (talk) 23:33, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Message for Tjic
User:Tjic, please link your new article, Justice Department seizure of Associated Press records to the Eric Holder#Associated Press section. Viriditas (talk) 01:35, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
Hello dear Viriditas
I can list on one hand the wikipedians endearing to me; yours being prominent. I felt badly seeing you aggrieved to the point of this block. I'd like to see you back to editing, and feel strongly that an unblock request would be hard not to give fair consideration; unless you would rather not. Most importantly, the header carries my sentiments. My76Strat (talk) 00:57, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you, however, I would prefer to serve out the full time of my block without capitulation. I deserved the block for willfully violating the 3RR, as I was convinced that after using the user talk page, the article talk page, and the 3RR noticeboard, that someone, somewhere would step in and do something. Since nobody did anything, I took it upon myself to defend the castle keep. So you see, the block is both earned and deserved. Viriditas (talk) 01:14, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
Another Barnstar awarded!
The Purple Barnstar | ||
I believe this is the first time I have ever awarded any editor a second barnstar, but you deserve it, for reasons too numerous to mention. Thanks for your moral rectitude and inspirational work overall, and my best wishes to all your future editing endeavors! Jusdafax 07:39, 19 May 2013 (UTC) |
Unblocked
Despite the fact that you explicitly said that you did not wish to be unblocked, I have unblocked you, as I see no reason to believe that doing so will lead to any problematic editing. This is due to My76Strat calling my attention to your case, and, having read your messages above, i fully agree with him/her. Unfortunately, by the time I got My76Strat's message, there were only a few hours of your block left, so in practice it won't make much difference, but I have gone ahead anyway. On a separate issue, I see that Qworty has now been banned. JamesBWatson (talk) 09:56, 20 May 2013 (UTC)