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:::It is not the role of Wikipedia users or administrators to be censors or gatekeepers making sure someone's posts are appropriate. If David posts something inappropriate, he is aware of what the consequences will be - another block and a ban from further participation in the case. [[User:Hersfold|'''''<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers</em><em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold</em>''''']] <sup>([[User:Hersfold/t|t]]/[[User:Hersfold/a|a]]/[[Special:Contributions/Hersfold|c]])</sup> 20:10, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
== Attacks on other WP pages
Physchim62 has undertaken to interrupt discussion of a proposal concerning use of the one-line Edit Summary [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Civility&diff=318248849&oldid=318247744 here]. This interruption is a personal attack that has nothing to do with the RfC, and interferes with a normal WP process. It seems pretty clear to me that dragging the Case/Speed of light into a perfectly simple RfC is not relevant to the separate issue of how to use a one-line Edit Summary, and the phrasing "pander to the aggressive spinners of pseudoscience" is inflammatory. I believe that (i) Physchim62 should be harshly reminded to keep his gibes to himself, and (ii) this comment of his should be reverted. [[User:Brews ohare|Brews ohare]] ([[User talk:Brews ohare|talk]]) 14:14, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
It appears that [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Civility&diff=318279333&oldid=318277192 Littleolive oil] & [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Civility&diff=318271351&oldid=318269673 User:Rd232] agree with me on the nature of this contribution. [[User:Brews ohare|Brews ohare]] ([[User talk:Brews ohare|talk]]) 17:38, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Admin Jehochman has interrupted the RfC on [[WP:Civil]] to support Physchim62 in an [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Civility&diff=318262181&oldid=318261241 unwarranted irrelevant attack]. His edit should be reverted with admonition. His action underlines a lack of objectivity on the part of Jehochman and he should recuse himself from this Case/Speed of light. This example is not the first time Jehochman has intruded to support Physchim62, as he also intervened at Physchim62's request to ban D Tombe.
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Jehochman also has [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Civility&diff=318284630&oldid=318279333 presumed to advertise the conclusions] of Case/Speed of light on [[WP:Civil]] before adjudication has occurred. Besides being a premature and gratuitous statement in that context, it indicates he has prejudged the outcome of this case. Prejudgment also is indicated by his remarks to me [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jehochman&diff=318285010&oldid=318284664 here]. [[User:Brews ohare|Brews ohare]] ([[User talk:Brews ohare|talk]]) 18:36, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
* I understand your concerns and will keep them in mind in resolving the speed of light case. However, outside of arbitration pages, I will not intervene as an administrator in this situation except in exceptional cirucmstances of extreme disruption or repeated problems after due warning. I will offer you the same advice that I have offered others, which is to not attempt altering policy in the midst of an ongoing dispute if at all possible. I appreciate your good intentions there, but the action is bound to be viewed by some editors as an attempt to get an upper hand in a dispute. It would be better to try and raise those concerns about civility after the dust has settled and you have nothing to gain in a current dispute from it. Back to the substance of your complaints, if you feel the comments were inappropriate and uncivil, soliciting some outside input from [[WP:WQA]] would probably be your best bet. However, before taking that step, I would recommend leaving a ''polite'' message on the editors' user talk pages expressing ''succinctly'' why you found their message offensive and ''cordially'' asking that they refactor or rephrase their comments. [[User:Vassyana|Vassyana]] ([[User talk:Vassyana#top|talk]]) 07:37, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
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Revision as of 07:37, 7 October 2009
- User:Vassyana/Difficulty. A sandbox built for my invitation to dicussion regarding contentious areas: [1]
Word of the day
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An antediluvian method of publishing information on a portable medium created from processed arboreal macerate, often with decorative covers glossed by petrochemical solids.
"Reginald went to the athenaeum to peruse treeware with the assistance of an informatics professional."
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SuggestBot picks articles in a number of ways based on other articles you've edited, including straight text similarity, following wikilinks, and matching your editing patterns against those of other Wikipedians. It tries to recommend only articles that other Wikipedians have marked as needing work. Your contributions make Wikipedia better -- thanks for helping.
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Note
Please remember to abide by our policy to assume good faith. Obama is mentioned once 3/4 of the way into a very long ACORN article. None of my edits had anything to with him. I have made every effort to abide by my editing restriciton no matter how unjust and misguided. According to the contortions of logic and stretching of boundaries just about any subject can be said to be Obama related. What about environmental issues and articles? Health care? If there was an issue over my editing that article all Sandstein or any other admin had to do was to ask me not to edit it pending further discussion. It's not complicated. We don't need people running around acting like assholes, shooting first and asking questions later. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:39, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
- In regard to your comment that "it's a moot point as there is no continuing disagreement or dispute over the block length," that's actually very inaccurate. Mistakes in block logs are not oversighted and, as I can attest, the logs are used whether they are accurate or not to flog editors and in ad hominem attacks during content disputes. If we aren't going to oversight errors, then bad blocks are a VERY serious issue and concern.
- Stigmatizing editors as disruptive and building up block logs with mistakes is a VERY real problem. I have suggested allowing clear errors to be oversighted, but until they are, bad blocks by admins that add to block logs should be taken VERY VERY seriously. It is not a moot point at all. It's a serious problem and the grotesque block length is an error that should never have happened in the first place. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:27, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
ArbCom
I've replied to your statement at ArbCom that there are dispute resolution possibilities. So far, there are no aspects of Dispute Resolution which have the ability to desysop admin who are abusing their authority as admin, so there is no possibility for such. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:04, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- By the way - noticeboards were used. RfCs were used. Strawpolls were used. The edit warring and the harassment continued. The block by Gwen Gale that was quickly overturned and just about unanimously overturned should be evidence that this has been a long problem. Please tell me where dispute resolution can help where people were reported for constant edit warring and the rest even though three RfC/Strawpolls determined that there was no consensus for it. The fact that they edit warred against an Arbitrator and bullied him makes it 100% certain that they believe that they are above all of our policies. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:07, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- Edit warring is continued by an admin even though there have been three consensus building attempts (2 straw polls, one RfC) which made it clear that a redirect was not accepted by the community. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- Vassyana, I will immediately withdraw the Rfar if you can show me where Dispute resolution can appropriately deal with all of these interconnected problems - abusive block and harassment, threats of block and harassment, constant attacks on talk pages, multiple pages being disrupted, constant edit stalking, edit warring, and the rest. In your answer, I request you demonstrate where one such issue has been effectively dealt with before. I would direct you to your vote during the Eastern European Mailing List request which is on the same exact type of problem. A blank support to open. We have talked before, and I have found you reasonable. However, it seems like you are putting forth a clear double standard or making claims that have not been verified by history or practice. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:33, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- I will provide a direct reponse a bit later. I have a few things I need to focus on first, but I wanted to make sure that you knew that I will be replying substantively to your message. Thank you for being patient. Vassyana (talk) 19:57, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- My email and skype are always available if you want to talk or if you require additional evidence. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:43, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
- Just to give you a direct basis for more information, here is my reply to the individual statements you have made - "Step one of dispute resolution is cordial discussion." Tried that. Tried that many, many times since before Moreschi's first abusive block. "such as by asking for a volunteer from MedCab." I've asked many people to intervene and many people attempted to - Kim Bruning and DGG for example. Hell, I even turned to Geogre who was using a sock puppet to harass me and he even told them that their ideas on a subject were improper. I turned to RfC (one was used at Persian Empire before the current one), WikiProjects, noticeboards, and the rest. These were jumped on by the same group of people and turned into battlegrounds. "requesting comment about user conduct can help provide feedback from the broader community" - large groups of people can easily game RfC. Look at Bishonen's in which her third RfC shows many people coming to her defense even though she was complicit in the abusive sock puppeting by Geogre in order to harass me, harassment that she was part of.
- By the way, if my comments were incivil, personal attacks, etc, that is not part of polite conversation, why do you think I went unblocked so long? It is obvious from Gwen Gale's block that they would block at the slightest thing they could try and make up exists (which was over turned as completely inappropriate). Ottava Rima (talk) 14:43, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Note
Hi Vassyana. Just wanted to remind you to fix the relevant tally when you make a vote on Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case, as you missed it in a couple recently. Juliancolton and I seem to have fixed them, but if they're incorrect, please revert/modify accordingly. :) Cheers, Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:51, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- I always encourage people to correct my typos, oversights, and other mistakes. I certainly make enough such errors! Thank you for doing so. I do earnestly appreciate it. Vassyana (talk) 17:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
You might be interested in this discussion
User_talk:Matthewedwards#Curious_why_you_deleted_a_user_talk_page_of_a_sock--Doug.(talk • contribs) 19:49, 1 October 2009 (UTC) I mention this because of your earlier comments at: User_talk:Matthewedwards/Archives/2009/04#User_talk_deletion--Doug.(talk • contribs) 19:51, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Tombe
My view of Tombe's behavior is no secret. And Tombe received more warnings than anyone should need. Nevertheless, I don't think it is fair to prevent Tombe from responding to what others (including myself) are saying about him, given the potential consequences of the arbitration decision to him. I propose an alternative: Let Tombe submit whatever he has to say to a qualified "referee". The referee would accept, reject, or, if it can be done without unreasonable effort, refactor, Tombe's proposed post. The referee would post whatever the referee accepts or refactors in the appropriate section of the appropriate arbitration page. That would allow Tombe to participate in, but not to continue disrupting, the arbitration. Finell (Talk) 17:18, 2 October 2009 (UTC) (To preserve the continuity of the conversation, I will watch for your reply here on your Talk page.)
- Response to Finell: A better alternative is to make sure any decision is postponed for at least 48 Hrs after Tombe's block expires to allow him to respond. That way he can speak without an interpreter. Brews ohare (talk) 18:20, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- It is not the role of Wikipedia users or administrators to be censors or gatekeepers making sure someone's posts are appropriate. If David posts something inappropriate, he is aware of what the consequences will be - another block and a ban from further participation in the case. Hersfold (t/a/c) 20:10, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Attacks on other WP pages
Physchim62 has undertaken to interrupt discussion of a proposal concerning use of the one-line Edit Summary here. This interruption is a personal attack that has nothing to do with the RfC, and interferes with a normal WP process. It seems pretty clear to me that dragging the Case/Speed of light into a perfectly simple RfC is not relevant to the separate issue of how to use a one-line Edit Summary, and the phrasing "pander to the aggressive spinners of pseudoscience" is inflammatory. I believe that (i) Physchim62 should be harshly reminded to keep his gibes to himself, and (ii) this comment of his should be reverted. Brews ohare (talk) 14:14, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
It appears that Littleolive oil & User:Rd232 agree with me on the nature of this contribution. Brews ohare (talk) 17:38, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Admin Jehochman has interrupted the RfC on WP:Civil to support Physchim62 in an unwarranted irrelevant attack. His edit should be reverted with admonition. His action underlines a lack of objectivity on the part of Jehochman and he should recuse himself from this Case/Speed of light. This example is not the first time Jehochman has intruded to support Physchim62, as he also intervened at Physchim62's request to ban D Tombe.
These actions are not acceptable in a neutral hearing. Brews ohare (talk) 15:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Jehochman's flippant remark concerning unwarranted inflammatory attacks made on Talk pages unrelated to this case is further indication that he does not have sufficient objectivity to handle Case/Speed of light, and most probably should not be an Admin at all. Brews ohare (talk) 17:45, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Jehochman also has presumed to advertise the conclusions of Case/Speed of light on WP:Civil before adjudication has occurred. Besides being a premature and gratuitous statement in that context, it indicates he has prejudged the outcome of this case. Prejudgment also is indicated by his remarks to me here. Brews ohare (talk) 18:36, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- I understand your concerns and will keep them in mind in resolving the speed of light case. However, outside of arbitration pages, I will not intervene as an administrator in this situation except in exceptional cirucmstances of extreme disruption or repeated problems after due warning. I will offer you the same advice that I have offered others, which is to not attempt altering policy in the midst of an ongoing dispute if at all possible. I appreciate your good intentions there, but the action is bound to be viewed by some editors as an attempt to get an upper hand in a dispute. It would be better to try and raise those concerns about civility after the dust has settled and you have nothing to gain in a current dispute from it. Back to the substance of your complaints, if you feel the comments were inappropriate and uncivil, soliciting some outside input from WP:WQA would probably be your best bet. However, before taking that step, I would recommend leaving a polite message on the editors' user talk pages expressing succinctly why you found their message offensive and cordially asking that they refactor or rephrase their comments. Vassyana (talk) 07:37, 7 October 2009 (UTC)