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: While I'm inherently dubious about this as an encyclopedic subject, there do seem to be sufficient references to justify it... that some men are driven to violence as a result of mental problems due to a lack of an outlet for their sexual urges seems well supported, even though distasteful. It is (from my understanding) fairly well known that a lack of 'sexual outlets' can cause psychological issues, even if the text as it stands it not particularly descriptive of the issue. That the subject in and of itself seems misogynist is not a reason for exclusion... that the lack of sexual relations with women can cause psychological problems for men is a legitimate topic, and the article can be improved through the normal editing process. [[User:Revent|<span style="color:#151B54;font-family:comic sans ms">Revent</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Revent|<b style="font-family:comic sans ms;color:#006400">talk</b>]]</sup> 02:18, 16 March 2015 (UTC) |
: While I'm inherently dubious about this as an encyclopedic subject, there do seem to be sufficient references to justify it... that some men are driven to violence as a result of mental problems due to a lack of an outlet for their sexual urges seems well supported, even though distasteful. It is (from my understanding) fairly well known that a lack of 'sexual outlets' can cause psychological issues, even if the text as it stands it not particularly descriptive of the issue. That the subject in and of itself seems misogynist is not a reason for exclusion... that the lack of sexual relations with women can cause psychological problems for men is a legitimate topic, and the article can be improved through the normal editing process. [[User:Revent|<span style="color:#151B54;font-family:comic sans ms">Revent</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Revent|<b style="font-family:comic sans ms;color:#006400">talk</b>]]</sup> 02:18, 16 March 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''Restore'' tho I am not quite sure of the title, or whether we might not need several articles. As was earlier mentioned, "Not having sex for mainly religious reasons is called celibacy." -- but that's actually a reason for keeping this, because there are other reasons for celibacy than that, and the referenced content in the article shows it. I think it absurd to ask for a topic ban for something that has been patiently worked on undisruptively despite opposition, which might conceivably appear to be represent a show of prejudice against the topic. If so, policy would be to disregard !votes that appear to have such a basis. But in the circumstances it was perfectly reasonable to ask if there was any support for it before going ahead yet again--it shows prudence, not canvassing. '''[[User:DGG| DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG| talk ]]) 04:27, 16 March 2015 (UTC) |
*'''Restore'' tho I am not quite sure of the title, or whether we might not need several articles. As was earlier mentioned, "Not having sex for mainly religious reasons is called celibacy." -- but that's actually a reason for keeping this, because there are other reasons for celibacy than that, and the referenced content in the article shows it. I think it absurd to ask for a topic ban for something that has been patiently worked on undisruptively despite opposition, which might conceivably appear to be represent a show of prejudice against the topic. If so, policy would be to disregard !votes that appear to have such a basis. But in the circumstances it was perfectly reasonable to ask if there was any support for it before going ahead yet again--it shows prudence, not canvassing. '''[[User:DGG| DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG| talk ]]) 04:27, 16 March 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''Do not restore to mainspace''' - this issue has been discussed to death, and time and time again the result has been "delete". Even the initial result of 'merge' was a de facto deletion because the editors of the article it was supposed to be merged with ([[Celibacy]]) did not want the material to be added. Therein lies the whole problem: even the name, "involuntary celibacy", is an oxymoron as celibacy is a voluntary condition by definition. The name originates from internet forums and is associated with the (now deleted) fictional condition of "Loveshyness". All this is very shady, and very much a fringe theory to my knowledge. The whole concept of there being some sort of condition preventing men from having sex, is ridiculous and close to a conspiracy theory. One of the arguments for the editor who wishes to re-instate the article is that [[Elliot Rodger]], the perpetrator of the Isla Vista shootings of 2014, believed in the condition and that him believing in the condition of "incel" was mentioned in several news articles. To me, this is not sufficient grounds for an article and I think it's time to give it a rest and respect the outcome of the previous deletion and request of undeletion. [[User:Mythic Writerlord|Mythic Writerlord]] ([[User talk:Mythic Writerlord|talk]]) 07:59, 16 March 2015 (UTC) |
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====Canvassing==== |
====Canvassing==== |
Revision as of 08:00, 16 March 2015
Requesting permission to restore User:Valoem/Involuntary celibacy to mainspace - another round of AfD
- User:Valoem/Involuntary celibacy (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) – (View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL))
History
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Involuntary celibacy - keep
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Involuntary celibacy (2nd nomination) - merge
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Denise Donnelly - del
- Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 December 7 - NC to restore
I've noticed a growing trend on Wikipedia which diverges from our initial goals with a dangerous precedence being set. Our goal is to document the world based on verfiability and notability. It is here that we have the right to document the unusual apart from the usual with a neutral point of view. Mainstream acceptance has never been a requirement, while this social phenomenon is unusual to rare there are enough secondary reliable sources to deem it notable. I feel in many ways the previous close was against consensus. We have the term no consensus for a reason such as this case when there is no consensus. The ensuing dispute only emphasizes the lack of consensus.
Upon reviewing the sources, this topic has been covered both academically and by mainstream media including a documented shooting which the perpetrator directly specified incelism as a motivate. I've added an additional six citations to tokyogirl's version the argument that this lacks notability or is not a social condition simply does not hold. I am requesting that the current version be moved to the mainspace. Valoem talk contrib 19:57, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- Administrative note: I've transcluded this nonstandard AFD (in an RFC format) to today's AFD log, in order to receive the maximum amount of community exposure for this nonstandard request. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 22:33, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- CommentI doubt I would have chosen this way to do it, but I suppose IAR is enough of a justification. What we need to discuss is the issue DGG ( talk ) 22:45, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- DGG: Yeah, this was a hard call for myself... but since we're having a discussion about undeleting an article and returning it to the mainspace, I invoked IAR and figured AFD would be the best route. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 22:50, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- no restoration the deletion review decision was correctly decided as was the AfD it was discussing. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:11, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- No restoration. Not having sex is called celibacy, and we already have an article that covers this mainstream, traditional issue. "Incel" does not exist outside the fringiest realms of fringe science, there has been no change in the sourcing attempts in this article over the years. It's the same people, Donnely and Gilmartin (both have had BLPs deleted) ,cited pushing the same fringe. If this closes as no endorsement to restore, I'd like to see at least a 1-year moratorium on recreation and in indefinite topic ban on Valorem. We shouldn't be subjected to the same degree of POV-pushing and advocacy year after year after year. Tarc (talk) 23:41, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- No restoration. Not having sex for mainly religious reasons is called celibacy. That is why the Celibacy article belongs to the Wikiproject Religion. And PLEASE respect other editors decisions, we had this discussion like in December 2014. Hafspajen (talk) 23:53, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- Comment - no restoration I think Coffee's idea to make it an RfC is a good one, as more eyes is good. As far as mainspace, I don't see any improvement on the material discussed when it was nominated for deletion. It is still cobbled-together material written like an essay to give an imaginary condition some form of substance. The fact that someone committed homicide and blamed this, and that people would take that at face value, is alarming. The result was merge but none of the material is mergeable. Hence should not be in mainspace. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:22, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Comment, @Tarc: I have been nothing but civil throughout this debate. I was never involved any prior debates regarding this topic except the last DRV. This encyclopedia is founded on debate and discussion. To suggest a 1 year topic ban because I civilly requested further discussion on a subject (a second time) is nothing short of the thought policing we built this encyclopedia to destroy. What I do is what we should all do, surf through topics and subjects deemed notable and create or restore them. This is how we expand this encyclopedia, and was how we built Wikipedia. I have a history of challenging consensus, UFO sightings in outer space, Dieselpunk, Justin Knapp, and The Halal Guys. Upon reviewing the sources in this article, I see the same prejudice to concepts we are unfamiliar with. Web MD and others show the undeniable notability of this subject and show it is distinct from celibacy. Though the term is an oxymoron, to say that it makes the concept null is absurd. We document what is notable not accepted:
- Olson, Carl (2007). Celibacy and Religious Traditions. Oxford University Press. p. 127. ISBN 9780198041818.
- Donnelly, Denise; Burgess, Elisabeth ; Anderson, Sally ; Davis, Regina ; Dillard, Joy (2001). "Involuntary Celibacy: A Life Course Analysis". The Journal of Sex Research 38 (2): 159–169. Retrieved 19 May 2014.
- Hawes, Joseph M. (2002). The Family in America: An Encyclopedia, Volume 2. ABC-CLIO. pp. 131–132. ISBN 9781576072325.
- O'Brien (editor), Jodi (2008). Encyclopedia of Gender and Society, Volume 1. SAGE. p. 120. ISBN 1412909163.
- Lehmiller, Justin J. (2014). The Psychology of Human Sexuality. Wiley-Blackwell. p. 232. ISBN 1118351215.
- Dirk van Zyl Smit, Sonja Snacken (2009). Principles of European Prison Law and Policy: Penology and Human Rights. Oxford University Press. p. xliii. ISBN 9780191018824.
- Vines, Matthew (2014). God and the Gay Christian. Convergent Books. ISBN 9781601425171.
- Hinsch, Bret (2013). Masculinities in Chinese History. Rowman & Littlefield. p. 126. ISBN 1442222336.
It is clear this subject has notability I am seeing significant coverage from multiple reliable sources. Published works subject to editorial review is notable, Web MD is notable. There are 15 other sources in the article subject to both peer and editorial review. Prior debates all deletes are revolved around WP:IDONTLIKEIT or WP:I HAVENTHEARDOFIT. If this subject is not notable I need an explanation as to why. Please breakdown each individual source and compare it to the sources found in celibacy. We do document the unusual, it is as simple as that. Valoem talk contrib 01:20, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- Same squeezing-blood-from-a-stone that one sees from partisans all this time in this project; name-drops, unreliable sources, aspects that are already addressed, and so on. That's the part you keep whiffing on; sex abstention is a long-documented and much-discussed thing, but it is a choice one makes. What is fringe and non-notable here is the pseudo-scientific view that there's an "involuntary" aspect to it. Tarc (talk) 01:33, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- How are they unreliable, that seems to be the trend when dealing with topics considered unusual. First claim the source is fringe (which in this case it is not) and then claiming sources are unreliable without divulging into why. We are looking at published sources subject to editorial oversight. By your definition nothing is reliable and one can always use that argument. Valoem talk contrib 01:41, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- Valoem left a message on my talk page about this discussion. I would certainly have seen this discussion and participated, even without that note.
I revised my position on this several times during the DRV. On reviewing what was said there, I'm still of the view that there's an encyclopaedic article to be written here, based on Tokyogirl's draft, but I think the article should be called "Sexual inactivity". I'm now persuaded that we should not have an article called "Involuntary celibacy".—S Marshall T/C 02:00, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- While I'm inherently dubious about this as an encyclopedic subject, there do seem to be sufficient references to justify it... that some men are driven to violence as a result of mental problems due to a lack of an outlet for their sexual urges seems well supported, even though distasteful. It is (from my understanding) fairly well known that a lack of 'sexual outlets' can cause psychological issues, even if the text as it stands it not particularly descriptive of the issue. That the subject in and of itself seems misogynist is not a reason for exclusion... that the lack of sexual relations with women can cause psychological problems for men is a legitimate topic, and the article can be improved through the normal editing process. Reventtalk 02:18, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- 'Restore tho I am not quite sure of the title, or whether we might not need several articles. As was earlier mentioned, "Not having sex for mainly religious reasons is called celibacy." -- but that's actually a reason for keeping this, because there are other reasons for celibacy than that, and the referenced content in the article shows it. I think it absurd to ask for a topic ban for something that has been patiently worked on undisruptively despite opposition, which might conceivably appear to be represent a show of prejudice against the topic. If so, policy would be to disregard !votes that appear to have such a basis. But in the circumstances it was perfectly reasonable to ask if there was any support for it before going ahead yet again--it shows prudence, not canvassing. DGG ( talk ) 04:27, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- Do not restore to mainspace - this issue has been discussed to death, and time and time again the result has been "delete". Even the initial result of 'merge' was a de facto deletion because the editors of the article it was supposed to be merged with (Celibacy) did not want the material to be added. Therein lies the whole problem: even the name, "involuntary celibacy", is an oxymoron as celibacy is a voluntary condition by definition. The name originates from internet forums and is associated with the (now deleted) fictional condition of "Loveshyness". All this is very shady, and very much a fringe theory to my knowledge. The whole concept of there being some sort of condition preventing men from having sex, is ridiculous and close to a conspiracy theory. One of the arguments for the editor who wishes to re-instate the article is that Elliot Rodger, the perpetrator of the Isla Vista shootings of 2014, believed in the condition and that him believing in the condition of "incel" was mentioned in several news articles. To me, this is not sufficient grounds for an article and I think it's time to give it a rest and respect the outcome of the previous deletion and request of undeletion. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 07:59, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Canvassing
- Note to admins - Valoem has left messages for 5 editors about this RfC, 4 of whom have opined in favor of the subject matter; Edison (voted keep in AfD 1 & 2), Mangoe (keep in AfD #2), Tokyogirl (worked extensively on draftspace restorations), S. Marshall (permit recreation in DRV). This appears to be a pretty bald-faced violation of WP:CANVASS' vote-stacking prohibitions. Tarc (talk) 01:51, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- The editors I asked are editors who were previously involved which is allowed per WP:CANVASS not to mention every other editor here was involved in previous debates favoring the deletion side. This is not canvassing, but a request for comment and in this case there needs to be a balance. To jump to every possible option to nullify any arguments I have shows your inherent bias against this topic. Valoem talk contrib 02:01, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- While it is OK to notify user who were involved in previous debates - it is definitely WP:Forumshopping. Hafspajen (talk) 07:08, 16 March 2015 (UTC)