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== Bias == |
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You are an absolute left-wing nut job. I suggest you seek therapy relating to your rampant TDS and anti-Fox bent. |
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Special:Impact
Out of the Shadows: The Man Behind the Steele Dossier
Out of the Shadows: The Man Behind the Steele Dossier, an ABC News documentary with George Stephanopoulos and Christopher Steele.
On October 18, 2021, this ABC News documentary aired on Hulu. It is a legitimate primary reliable source that contains content usable at the Steele dossier and Christopher Steele articles. That which is primarily about Steele would only be used at his biographical article, while some other content may be used at both articles. While most content should be sourced to secondary reliable sources which comment on the documentary, our rules for the use of primary sources allow the careful use of the documentary for some details. I suspect the right place for some of the content would be in the "Legacy" section (maybe after changing it to "Legacy and later developments"), possibly as a subsection for the documentary. We'll see out it works out, as the topic dictates the location. It may end up being nothing. The documentary revealed little real news of consequence, but it does reveal info about methods, motivations, attitudes and consequences.
I am starting a list of RS for possible use. -- Valjean (talk) 15:34, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- ABC News coverage
- Out of the Shadows: Christopher Steele defiant on dossier, says Trump still 'potential' threat[1]
- Behind the dossier: Steele dismisses James Bond comparisons -- but dossier did leave his life shaken, stirred[2]
The four pillars
In defending his work, Steele describes his intelligence reports as resting on "four pillars" of information that he believes have held up over time as accurate.
"One was, there was a large-scale Russian interference campaign in the American election in 2016," he said.
"The second was that this had been authorized and ordered at the highest levels, including Putin," he said.
"The third had been that the objective of this was to damage Hillary Clinton and to try and get this rather unorthodox candidate, Donald Trump, elected," Steele said. "And the fourth was, there was evidence of collusion between people around Trump and the Russians."[2]
- Behind the dossier: How Christopher Steele penned his reports -- and the fallout from his unmasking[3]
- Behind the dossier: Christopher Steele not worried about facing charges in Durham investigation[4]
- Confronting his critics, Christopher Steele defends controversial dossier in first major interview[5]
- "Steele continues to defend ... a claim that Michael Cohen ... traveled to Prague in 2016.... 'I'm prepared to accept that not everything in the dossier is 100% accurate," Steele said. "I have yet to be convinced that that is one of them.'"
- Regarding one of his major sources for the pee tape allegation (there were others), "Steele, in response, told Stephanopoulos that his collector may have "taken fright" at having his cover blown and tried to "downplay and underestimate" his own reporting when he spoke to the FBI." This view is also mirrored by the FBI in the Inspector General's report. Here's what we already have in this article: "The Supervisory Intel Analyst believed this key sub-source "may have been attempting to minimize his/her role in the [dossier's] election reporting following its release to the public".[6]
- Other coverage
- Christopher Steele, author of Trump dossier, defends report[7]
While the tape itself has never been revealed, Steele said he thinks it “probably does (exist), but I wouldn't put 100% certainty on it.”
When asked why Russia has never released said tape, Steele said: "Well, it hasn't needed to be released. I think the Russians felt they'd got pretty good value out of Donald Trump when he was president of the U.S." ...
Steele said Mueller's overall report reinforced the contents of his dossier.
“There was a wholesale campaign that was organized by the leadership in Russia, that its aim was to get Donald Trump elected,” he said. “And there was a lot of evidence of contacts between the Trump campaign and Russians, which they didn't report on and didn't admit, and in fact lied about.” ...
When asked why Cohen would not admit to the alleged meeting despite already being convicted of other crimes, Steele replied: "I think it's so incriminating and demeaning. … And the other reason is he might be scared of the consequences."[7]
- Ex-intel official who created controversial Trump Russia dossier speaks out[8]
- Christopher Steele Defends Russia Dossier, Says Trump Golden Shower Tape "Probably Does" Exist[9]
- Ex-spy Christopher Steele stands behind the thrust of his Trump-Russia dossier, even the salacious 'kompromat'[10]
- https://www.axios.com/steele-defends-trump-russia-dossier-abc-interview-5bedc6db-254a-4979-9d82-0ac8041c2398.html
- "I stand by the work we did, the sources that we had," he tells ABC News
- Trump's "golden showers" reaction
- Trump's "golden showers" reaction to news of the documentary was a seemingly unprovoked rant that he "wasn't into golden showers". Several RS made the connection; his rant wasn't something "out of the blue". Sources, with attribution, for that event and connection....
- https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/trump-golden-showers-denial.html
- https://news.yahoo.com/trump-shares-thoughts-golden-showers-080306066.html
- https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/10/donald-trump-golden-showers-denial
- https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-golden-showers-republican-donor-event-1242797/
- https://www.salon.com/2021/10/15/brings-up-golden-showers-unprompted-during-private-event-with-donors/
- https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-gop-fraud-claims/2021/10/14/f37887fe-2cfc-11ec-985d-3150f7e106b2_story.html
- "Unprompted, he brought up an unsubstantiated claim he had interactions with prostitutes in Moscow before he ran for president.
“I’m not into golden showers,” he told the crowd. “You know the great thing, our great first lady — ‘That one,’ she said, ‘I don’t believe that one.’ ”
- "Unprompted, he brought up an unsubstantiated claim he had interactions with prostitutes in Moscow before he ran for president.
- Own thoughts
A major objection to the golden showers allegation has been that some of the reports alluded to by Danchenko, who apparently didn't have the best sources for this info, came from "word of mouth and hearsay" "conversations with friends over beers" (IG Report). So be it, but people and RS often ignore that some of the seven sources were within Trump's own orbit (Millian and Cohen took it seriously) and workers at the hotel, not hookers and people joking in Moscow bars.
It's a BS objection, because how else would any normal person talk about such a sticky, dripping, allegation? Of course, they'll make Trump the butt of jokes. When Moscow (and Saint Petersberg) hookers told of how their colleagues were involved in the incident, those rumors spread in the hooker community, and people always make such a topic into a joke and scorn. That doesn't mean the allegation isn't true. It's pretty much the only way such an incident would become known.
So is it true? We don't know for sure, but it fits with Trump's character (he's known for sexual escapades and acts of hatred) and his own history with urolagnia (liking the sight of peeing). He liked it in Las Vegas, shortly before going to Moscow. Also, his own hatred of Obama is well-known, and it's entirely in character for Trump to come up with the idea of defiling that bed because of Obama.
The Mueller Report contains a footnote that suggests that Trump may have heard that Russia had incriminating tapes of his behavior. On October 30, 2016, Michael Cohen had received a text from Giorgi Rtskhiladze reporting that he had successfully stopped the "flow of tapes from Russia". Rtskhiladze told investigators that these were compromising tapes of Trump, and Cohen told investigators he had spoken to Trump about the issue. Rtskhiladze later told investigators "he was told the tapes were fake, but he did not communicate that to Cohen".[11]
So Cohen did his job as fixer. He knew what Trump was capable of doing and took the rumor seriously, treating it as a real risk. He began to investigate, using his friend Rtskhiladze, who then started researching the matter. He also treated it as a real risk. We don't know how much back-and-forth correspondence there was between them; we only get one side, but there was obviously previous contact. After a while, Rtskhiladze reported back to Cohen with the good news that he had "stopped the flow of tapes". They believed there was a risk, enough to try to avert exposure. That was part of Cohen's job as Trump's "fixer".
So whether it occurred or not, there was enough risk that Trump had done such a thing that Cohen treated it as real. Innocent people don't do this. Millian was also one of the sources for the pee tape allegation, and he was inside the Trump campaign. These actions lend much weight to the evidence that the incident may have happened as alleged. It remains one of the many unproven claims, but one that is likely true.
Steele still allows that the pee tape allegation may not be true. This has always been his view, often expressed as a 50-50 likelihood. Steele's partner at Orbis, Chris Burrows, as well as Steele's wife, tried to talk him out of including it, but Steele followed standard MI6 practice, which is to include everything from all sources in your original notes. Later it gets checked for accuracy, and a final report might not include it. BuzzFeed short-circuited this process by publishing the unfinished notes without permission. The fault is BuzzFeed's, not Steele's. Steele knew that Putin's FSB often included sex tapes in their kompromat, so he couldn't ignore the reports. (I don't know if Steele also factored in Trump's personality and thus the likelihood of such actions. No one who knows Trump would be surprised if this turned out to be true.)
Regarding sources, Steele shares the exact same view as the FBI, revealed in the IG Report, that when a source is exposed, they get scared and try to minimize their involvement. The "confidential source will often take fright and try and downplay and underestimate what they've said and done". (Steele) That's also what the FBI previously told Horowitz. Both Danchenko and Millian did that, and Steele agrees with the FBI. Those who accuse Steele of faulty logic should accuse the FBI, but I doubt they know better than the FBI.
Steele wrote 17 memos which are now known as the "Steele dossier". He doesn't like the term "dossier" "because it wasn't a dossier. It's a series of reports on a live issue, the election campaign, running through time. These reports were not collated and presented in one offering, nor were they analyzed in detail by us. Effectively, it was a running commentary. It wasn't a dossier."
Steele still believes that "the evidence suggests that" "Donald Trump was colluding with the Russians".
- Something different
- Steele included in Vanity Fair's The 2018 New Establishment List][12]
- "Golden-shower glory: The former head of M.I.6’s Russia desk compiled the infamous dossier that raised the possibility Donald Trump was vulnerable to Russian blackmail. Steele even grew a beard and went into hiding—merely adding to his mythic reputation on the left."[12]
- Russia dossier author criticizes Trump, slams 'strange and troubling times'[13]
- "The former spy, Christopher Steele, wrote to Vanity Fair shortly after he was named to the magazine’s “2018 New Establishment List.” ....[his comments follow]"[13]
- Former MI6 spy Christopher Steele, who compiled controversial dossier, breaks silence to criticize Trump[14]
- Radhika Jones sets a new tone at Vanity Fair: 'My goal is to reflect the culture as I see it'[15]
- "The 100-person New Establishment List featured Steele, the former intelligence officer, at No. 38. He has been in hiding, but he broke his silence by sending Jones a thank you note. He said he would have liked to attend the summit, but could not given his “present legal and political situation.”[15]
- Template
- <ref name=" ">{{cite web | author-link1= | last1= | first1= | author-link2= | last2= | first2= | date= | title= | website= | url= | access-date= | quote= }}</ref>
References
- ^ Mosk, Matthew; Bruggeman, Lucien; Donovan (October 18, 2021). "Out of the Shadows: Christopher Steele defiant on dossier, says Trump still 'potential' threat". ABC News. Retrieved October 21, 2021.
- ^ a b Mosk, Matthew; Bruggeman, Lucien; Donovan, Chris (October 19, 2021). "Behind the dossier: Steele dismisses James Bond comparisons -- but dossier did leave his life shaken, stirred". ABC News. Retrieved October 21, 2021.
- ^ Mosk, Matthew; Bruggeman, Lucien; Donovan, Chris (October 18, 2021). "Behind the dossier: How Christopher Steele penned his reports -- and the fallout from his unmasking". ABC News. Retrieved October 20, 2021.
- ^ Mosk, Matthew; Bruggeman, Lucien; Donovan, Chris (October 18, 2021). "Behind the dossier: Christopher Steele not worried about facing charges in Durham investigation". ABC News. Retrieved October 20, 2021.
- ^ Bruggeman, Lucien; Mosk, Matthew (October 17, 2021). "Confronting his critics, Christopher Steele defends controversial dossier in first major interview". ABC News. Retrieved October 17, 2021.
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
OIG_12/9/2019
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ a b Tillman, Rachel (October 18, 2021). "Christopher Steele, author of Trump dossier, defends report". Spectrum News NY1. Retrieved October 21, 2021.
- ^ Pellish, Aaron; Herb, Jeremy (October 18, 2021). "Ex-intel official who created controversial Trump Russia dossier speaks out". CNN. Retrieved October 20, 2021.
- ^ Levin, Bess (October 18, 2021). "Christopher Steele Defends Russia Dossier, Says Trump Golden Shower Tape "Probably Does" Exist". Vanity Fair. Retrieved October 20, 2021.
- ^ Weber, Peter (October 18, 2021). "Ex-spy Christopher Steele stands behind the thrust of his Trump-Russia dossier, even the salacious 'kompromat'". The Week. Retrieved October 20, 2021.
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
Kessler_4/24/2019
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ a b Bilton, Nick; et al. (October 3, 2018). "The 2018 New Establishment List". Vanity Fair. Retrieved October 21, 2021.
- ^ a b Cohen, Marshall (October 10, 2018). "Russia dossier author criticizes Trump, slams 'strange and troubling times'". CNN. Retrieved October 21, 2021.
- ^ Macfarlane, Julia (October 10, 2018). "Former MI6 spy Christopher Steele, who compiled controversial dossier, breaks silence to criticize Trump". ABC News. Retrieved October 21, 2021.
- ^ a b Stelter, Brian (October 10, 2018). "Radhika Jones sets a new tone at Vanity Fair: 'My goal is to reflect the culture as I see it'". CNN. Retrieved October 21, 2021.
Daily Mail vs Fox
Always been a curious thing this. Relatively speaking, the Mail's complete and total ban was achieved here very easily, yet achieving the same outcome for Fox seems to still be far out of reach. The Mail being seen here as equivalent to Infowars is now evidently uncontroversial. The idea that the Mail routinely knowingly publishes falsehoods for profit, similarly uncontroversial. Yet to say these things about Fox? Still apparently controversial. My personal view is that the Mail ban is an absurdity, and needs to be revisited. But I already know Wikipedia is, for whatever reason, going to cling onto it until the bitter end. Every year that Fox is seen differently to the Mail here, seems to be a nail in the coffin of its credibility. If it ever even had any. Bandorrr (talk) 11:47, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
- I completely agree. You should comment at the discussion at Fox News Knew It Was A Lie: Fox News Purposely Pushed Deception On 2020 Voting. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 04:13, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
- A sad reality of Wikipedia is that outsider's opinions matter little. But if it was possible, I'd push this forward by focusing on the issue of how to view a publication/platform that is apparently knowingly and consistently publishing falsehoods for commercial reasons. This is the most serious charge levied against the Mail by Wikipedia, the thing that underpins this idea here that every word (and picture) on every Mail platform, regardless of type, context, authorship and supporting evidence, has to be assumed to be a potential profit driven lie. I have no real doubt that if asked today, the Wikipedia community would vehemently reaffirm that this is still its strongly held position wrt the Mail. Even though in comparison to what Fox was doing to promote the Big Lie, things like claiming Didsbury is a no go zone for white people for example is pretty small beer, and certainly more disputable as proof of actual malice rather than extreme editorialisation. In the UK context, what Fox has been caught doing, is eerily similar to what the Sun (also a Fox title) did in the 1980s, when it knowingly and persistently printed lies about Liverpool soccer fans, on the flimsy excuse they were being fed this stuff by people in power. They did this even after proper journalism had raised sufficient questions about its likely falsity, simply because it fed into the zeitgeist of the time (that soccer fans are horrid), and thus, were manifestly doing it for profit. It's history like that which makes the Mail ban here (with the likes of the Sun still not subject to an equivalent ban) look so absurd, as well as when looking at its parent, Fox. Seen in that light, obvious questions arise if there is a continuing reluctance here to apply the same view to Fox as the Mail. It exposes the inconsistency very well I think, if people here are happily taking the view that the Mail knowingly tells a lie anywhere, even on the most trivial and little viewed stories, simply for clicks. If the Mail does it, who can seriously argue based on these revelations, that the standards of Fox's management and US laws could and would prevent the exact same culture existing at Fox? At least at the national level. The UK has far better libel laws and press regulation. As an alternative, a potential uplift would I guess be to have both subjected to the same blanket ban for any content deemed remotely controversial (which, if we're being serious about source use, should never be being sourced to tabloids anyway!?!), with anything else included here only with attribution and vigorous satisfaction that no better source exists. But I seriously doubt that would fly at all, given the sheer level of prejudice held here against the Mail. Bandorrr (talk) 11:44, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
- That is a fundamental misstatement of Wikipedia policy and purpose relating to Verification and Neutral Point of View. If we happen to exclude some of the true statements on the Mail or Fox or similar sites, that does no harm. If we validate a false statement, on the other hand, it does great harm. So our policy prevents that harm. It's immaterial whether we use a deprecated source for valid statements of fact, because such statements will have many reputable mainstream sources from which to choose. SPECIFICO talk 15:40, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
- This in no way explains the differing approach in policy to Fox and the Mail. It also asks people to believe there is any logic in Wikipedia, a platform with zero liability and little repute, taking a tougher stance on the Mail than these reputable sources (where the mere attributed use of Mail is a thing) do. Bandorrr (talk) 04:47, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
- That is a fundamental misstatement of Wikipedia policy and purpose relating to Verification and Neutral Point of View. If we happen to exclude some of the true statements on the Mail or Fox or similar sites, that does no harm. If we validate a false statement, on the other hand, it does great harm. So our policy prevents that harm. It's immaterial whether we use a deprecated source for valid statements of fact, because such statements will have many reputable mainstream sources from which to choose. SPECIFICO talk 15:40, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
- A sad reality of Wikipedia is that outsider's opinions matter little. But if it was possible, I'd push this forward by focusing on the issue of how to view a publication/platform that is apparently knowingly and consistently publishing falsehoods for commercial reasons. This is the most serious charge levied against the Mail by Wikipedia, the thing that underpins this idea here that every word (and picture) on every Mail platform, regardless of type, context, authorship and supporting evidence, has to be assumed to be a potential profit driven lie. I have no real doubt that if asked today, the Wikipedia community would vehemently reaffirm that this is still its strongly held position wrt the Mail. Even though in comparison to what Fox was doing to promote the Big Lie, things like claiming Didsbury is a no go zone for white people for example is pretty small beer, and certainly more disputable as proof of actual malice rather than extreme editorialisation. In the UK context, what Fox has been caught doing, is eerily similar to what the Sun (also a Fox title) did in the 1980s, when it knowingly and persistently printed lies about Liverpool soccer fans, on the flimsy excuse they were being fed this stuff by people in power. They did this even after proper journalism had raised sufficient questions about its likely falsity, simply because it fed into the zeitgeist of the time (that soccer fans are horrid), and thus, were manifestly doing it for profit. It's history like that which makes the Mail ban here (with the likes of the Sun still not subject to an equivalent ban) look so absurd, as well as when looking at its parent, Fox. Seen in that light, obvious questions arise if there is a continuing reluctance here to apply the same view to Fox as the Mail. It exposes the inconsistency very well I think, if people here are happily taking the view that the Mail knowingly tells a lie anywhere, even on the most trivial and little viewed stories, simply for clicks. If the Mail does it, who can seriously argue based on these revelations, that the standards of Fox's management and US laws could and would prevent the exact same culture existing at Fox? At least at the national level. The UK has far better libel laws and press regulation. As an alternative, a potential uplift would I guess be to have both subjected to the same blanket ban for any content deemed remotely controversial (which, if we're being serious about source use, should never be being sourced to tabloids anyway!?!), with anything else included here only with attribution and vigorous satisfaction that no better source exists. But I seriously doubt that would fly at all, given the sheer level of prejudice held here against the Mail. Bandorrr (talk) 11:44, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
Trump
I'm very much agreeable with whatever you & others can iron out, concerning your current proposals for Donald Trump's page. GoodDay (talk) 21:26, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
Sources for Dominion vs Fox News scandal
User:Valjean/Sources for Dominion vs Fox News scandal
Dominion Voting Systems v. Fox News
Dominion Voting Systems v. Fox News Corporation or something like that.
- Filed: January 17, 2022
- Certified: February 16, 2023
- DOMINION'S BRIEF IN SUPPORT OF ITS MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT ON LIABILITY OF FOX NEWS NETWORK, LLC AND FOX CORPORATION Dated: January 17, 2022 PUBLIC VERSION FILED ON FEBRUARY 16, 2023
In December 2020 and January 2021, Fox News, Fox Business, Newsmax, and the American Thinker withdrew allegations they had reported about Dominion and Smartmatic after one or both companies threatened legal action for defamation.[1][2][3][4] In January 2021, Dominion filed defamation lawsuits against former Trump campaign lawyers Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani, seeking $1.3 billion in damages from each.[5][6] After Dominion filed its lawsuit against Powell, One America News Network (OANN) removed all references to Dominion and Smartmatic from its website, though without issuing public retractions.[7][8] During subsequent months, Dominion filed suits seeking $1.6 billion in damages from each of Fox News, Newsmax, OANN and former Overstock.com CEO Patrick Byrne,[9] while also suing Mike Lindell and his corporation, MyPillow.
Despite motions by the defendants to dismiss the lawsuits, judges ruled that the cases against Fox News, Lindell, and MyPillow could proceed.[10][11]
On 16 February 2023, Dominion Voting Systems filed a motion for summary judgment against Fox News, with dozens of internal communications,[12] sent during the months after the 2020 presidential election, showing several prominent network hosts and senior executives—including chairman Murdoch and CEO Suzanne Scott—discussing their knowledge that the election fraud allegations they were reporting were false. The communications showed the network was concerned that not reporting the falsehoods would alienate viewers and cause them to switch to rival conservative networks, impacting corporate profitability.[13]
- See also
- Dominion Voting Systems#Defamation lawsuit against Fox News
- Fox News#2020 election fraud allegations
- Fox News controversies#False claims about the 2020 election
- Mike Lindell
- MyPillow
- One America News Network#Dominion Voting Systems
References
- ^ Feldman, Josh (December 18, 2020). "Lou Dobbs Airs Stunning Fact-Check of His Own Election Claims". Mediaite. Archived from the original on January 7, 2021. Retrieved February 1, 2021.
- ^ Feldman, Josh (December 20, 2020). "Maria Bartiromo Airs Fact-Check, Adds 'We Will Keep Investigating'". Mediaite. Archived from the original on January 11, 2021. Retrieved February 1, 2021.
- ^ Barr, Jeremy (January 21, 2021). "Newsmax issues sweeping 'clarification' debunking its own coverage of election misinformation". The Washington Post. Archived from the original on December 21, 2020. Retrieved December 22, 2020.
- ^ Corasaniti, Nick (January 25, 2021). "Rudy Giuliani Sued by Dominion Voting Systems Over False Election Claims". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Archived from the original on January 25, 2021. Retrieved January 25, 2021.
- ^ Brown, Emma (January 8, 2021). "Dominion sues pro-Trump lawyer Sidney Powell, seeking more than $1.3 billion". The Washington Post. Archived from the original on January 9, 2021. Retrieved January 9, 2021.
- ^ Polantz, Katelyn (January 25, 2021). "Dominion sues Giuliani for $1.3 billion over 'Big Lie'". CNN. Retrieved January 25, 2021.
{{cite news}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (link) - ^ Shamsian, Jacob (January 21, 2021). "Trump-ally media outlet OAN quietly deleted articles about Dominion despite publicly doubling down on election conspiracy theories". Business Insider. Archived from the original on January 20, 2021. Retrieved January 29, 2021.
- ^ Thalen, Mikael (January 21, 2021). "Pro-Trump outlet OAN is deleting all its articles about Dominion". The Daily Dot. Archived from the original on January 21, 2021. Retrieved January 29, 2021.
- ^ Azadi, Elahe (August 10, 2021). "Dominion sues Newsmax and One America News over election fraud claims". The Washington Post.
- ^ Dominion Voting wins key decision in lawsuit against Fox News - CNN Video, 17 December 2021, retrieved 2021-12-20
- ^ "MyPillow launches yet another effort to get Dominion's defamation lawsuit dismissed". August 25, 2021.
- ^
- Barr, Jeremy; Weiner, Rachel. "Fox News hosts, execs privately doubted 2020 conspiracy claims shared on air". Washington Post. Retrieved 19 February 2023.
- DOMINION’S BRIEF IN SUPPORT OF ITS MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT ON LIABILITY OF FOX NEWS NETWORK, LLC AND FOX CORPORATION Dated: January 17, 2022 PUBLIC VERSION FILED ON FEBRUARY 16, 2023
- ^
- Jeremy W. Peters; Katie Robertson (February 16, 2023). "Fox Stars Privately Expressed Disbelief About Election Fraud Claims. 'Crazy Stuff.'". The New York TImes.
- See also the brief itself.
Drafting content offline
The same policies and guidelines apply to all submissions, whether or not you drafted them first on your personal computer. The edit will look the same regardless. One issue to note, should you just do a plain installation, is that all of the templates and modules from English Wikipedia won't be available. isaacl (talk) 21:57, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, I understand your first sentence. That's clear. On the second point, wow! Of course. I would need to use a host where Mediawiki is tied to the English Wikipedia for them to work. Lots to think about. Thanks. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 22:05, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
Please...
...look at the meanings of the Denmark and Danish Realm articles. Georgia guy (talk) 17:03, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- I'm well aware of the difference. If you meant that the content was misplaced and belonged in the Kingdom article, then that would make sense. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:08, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
Meek
Thanks for your help doing basic tidy-up at Meek's article, I did have a question though because while we say something like "You can't use the daily mail to reference his divorce because it often doesn't fact-check itself", we have the issue where his divorce filing is a public record available online and it's obviously true - so it's true, and it's notable because it's been reported in the media, but the media in which it's reported is considered to sometimes tell untruths...I'm hitting an impasse on that issue (while trying to avoid using the Daily Mail since somebody showed me the link suggesting against it; I don't have a problem with the DM myself but almost all the facts can be sourced to other publications) - which also raises a second question. If I say "John Smith once dated Jane Doe", is it better if I put 2-3 citations for a fact, or better to only use one? Not sure if I'm "overdoing" it or "underdoing" it sometimes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LauraIngallsEvenWilder (talk • contribs) 20:32, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- What sources have you found? If "almost all the facts can be sourced to other publications", why not use them? As far as number of citations, the more controversial the content, the more citations. I tend toward too many, and others can then object. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:21, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
Thank you
...for keeping an eye on articles, and insisting that content that is added be sourced, including at the Lars van Trier page. It is refreshing to see editors that still show consistent care in keeping with WP:VERIFY, and other foundational principles. Kudos. An educator. 2601:246:C700:F5:989F:41EB:E351:AFD6 (talk) 07:37, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks! Reliable sources are our foundation, not our own opinions and biases. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 07:52, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
- Amen to that. I have had untold discussions here with some, even regulars, that do not believe all needs be sourced (only the debatable or controversial). I have wasted too much breath, and am resigned simply to supporting positive examples. By the way, at the LvT article, an earlier non-logging editor, IP address 136.158.78.115, made extensive edits, both adding information without source, and removing sourced information. I marked some of the former with [citation needed], but all the edits from that location should be reviewed. (You reverted at least one to the lead, and left them a message at their talk page, earlier, but there may be more from them that needs scrutiny.) As a non-logging editor myself, I do not do bold redactive edits, even when another is in egregious violation of WP policies. (Because, long experience has shown that Twinkle and its users do not exercise discretion when seeing deletions by a non-logging editor, even if proper.) So perhaps look in again there, when time allows. Cheers, all the best. 2601:246:C700:F5:989F:41EB:E351:AFD6 (talk) 08:41, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
Montagnier
I've replied at Talk:Luc_Montagnier#February_2023 --Mick2 (talk) 21:00, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
- Good. Remember to sign your comments. Don't edit or comment while logged out. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:04, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
Mueller not 'traditional prosecutorial judgment' on whether Trump broke the law."
Trump–Russia relations |
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To understand the Trump–Russia crime scene, ask the following question and focus on the second part, because the first is proven:
- Russia interfered in the 2016 election, but what role did Trump and his campaign play in that interference? That's what the Crossfire Hurricane team and Mueller wanted to understand.
We know that Mueller was not able to prove "conspiracy" and "coordination" beyond a shadow of a doubt, possibly because of all the obstruction, destruction of evidence, and secret communication using burner phones and other devices that leave no trace. Mueller did prove that such devious means of communication were used.
Here is something incredible we also know. Mueller definitely "did not make a 'traditional prosecutorial judgment' on whether Trump broke the law."[1][2]
Conspiracy is a crime that is very hard to prove. A crime itself may be easy to prove, but to prove that the participants actually conspired to commit the crime, one must pass a very high bar of evidence. Finding a formal written or oral agreement of "you do this and I'll do that" to commit the crime is often impossible, and it may never have existed as a formal agreement, even though the participants planned their actions.
The report also detailed multiple acts of potential obstruction of justice by Trump, but did not make a "traditional prosecutorial judgment" on whether Trump broke the law, suggesting that Congress should make such a determination.[1][2] Investigators decided they could not "apply an approach that could potentially result in a judgment that the President committed crimes" as an Office of Legal Counsel opinion stated that a sitting president could not be indicted,[3] and investigators would not accuse him of a crime when he cannot clear his name in court.[4] The report concluded that Congress, having the authority to take action against a president for wrongdoing, "may apply the obstruction laws".[3] The House of Representatives subsequently launched an impeachment inquiry following the Trump–Ukraine scandal, but did not pursue an article of impeachment related to the Mueller investigation.[5][6]
Notice these words: "Investigators decided they could not "apply an approach that could potentially result in a judgment that the President committed crimes." IOW, they already decided from the start that investigators were NOT allowed to find Trump guilty of a crime, so they focused on a crime that is nearly impossible to prove, and they succeeded in their goal of NOT proving such a crime.
If any crime was committed, the participants were allowed to go free because it was not proven they "conspired" to commit the crime. I don't know of any court of law that operates this way. Bank robbers do get convicted, as the crime itself is the important thing, not whether they "conspired" to rob the bank. In spite of this, many were indeed prosecuted and convicted. Then Trump pardoned many of them.
Mueller definitely "did not make a 'traditional prosecutorial judgment' on whether Trump broke the law." He chose to attempt to prove the unprovable (conspiracy) and succeeded in not proving it. Job well done.
Apologists for Russia and so-called "Russiagate" revisionists forget about the collusion and unpatriotic acts by Trump and his campaign and go so far as to deny Russian interference. That is factually and patriotically wrong.
A conspiracy was not proven, but Mueller had chosen not to focus on all the collusion he found in the process of the investigation. They found plenty of that, but most of it was not a crime, just terribly unpatriotic. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 04:49, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
References
- ^ a b Barrett, Devlin; Zapotosky, Matt (April 17, 2019). "Mueller report lays out obstruction evidence against the president". The Washington Post. Retrieved April 20, 2019.
- ^ a b Farley, Robert; Robertson, Lori; Gore, D'Angelo; Spencer, Saranac Hale; Fichera, Angelo; McDonald, Jessica (April 18, 2019). "What the Mueller Report Says About Obstruction". FactCheck.org. Retrieved April 22, 2019.
- ^ a b Mascaro, Lisa (April 18, 2019). "Mueller drops obstruction dilemma on Congress". AP News. Retrieved April 20, 2019.
- ^ Segers, Grace (May 29, 2019). "Mueller: If it were clear president committed no crime, "we would have said so"". CBS News. Retrieved June 2, 2019.
- ^ Cheney, Kyle; Caygle, Heather; Bresnahan, John (December 10, 2019). "Why Democrats sidelined Mueller in impeachment articles". Politico. Retrieved October 8, 2021.
- ^ Blake, Aaron (December 10, 2019). "Democrats ditch 'bribery' and Mueller in Trump impeachment articles. But is that the smart play?". The Washington Post. Retrieved October 8, 2021.
"Midyear Exam" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect Midyear Exam has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 March 15 § Midyear Exam until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
editing behavior at Alternative medicine
Valjean, You recently opened a talk page discussion in this edit. Fifteen hours later you edited the lede of the article, and shortly thereafter hatted/closed the discussion. The compressed time frame, obscuration of the discussion, and the rapid fire edits you have been making since then are counterproductive. Also concerning is that you are flooding the article with quotes from poor quality sources such as Buzzfeed and The Skeptic's Dictionary, both yellow at WP:RSP. Cedar777 (talk) 23:22, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- Cedar777, I only hatted the part of the discussion where we had finished the subject, and if necessary can be unhatted, as I wrote at the bottom of the hatted part. The unfinished parts are still open. When you are not participating, you miss stuff like that and your complaints seem unwarranted and out of place. Perform some due diligence before complaining.
- Instead of complaining here, why haven't you participated at the talk page as other editors have done? We have had good conversations, have engaged in a pleasant back-and-forth to tweak and refine edits, and most of my edits have been in line with the consensus there. You could have been part of it.
- A couple edits today have been typical bold edits with sources appropriate for the type of edit, in line with how we use sources mentioned at WP:RSP. Context is everything. It all depends on how the source is being used.
- If you still have real concerns, you are welcome to mention them there, one-at-a-time, and please do it in a constructive and civil manner, not in an accusatory manner as done here. I am not a newbie. I am always willing to work with other editors and take what they say seriously. I have been here so long that I helped to write our policies and pioneer much of the alternative medical content. As a medical professional and subject matter expert, my edits are generally highly respected, but I still listen to other editors. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 00:41, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Cedar777 nothing in this is permanent, the project is never done, etc. One can view Valjean's actions here as a slightly longer form of bold editing, along the WP:BRD continuum. One can still revert, one can still add to these discussions. Nothing is preventing input in any of the above. It is not "counterproductive" in my view, any more than a single bold edit would be counterproductive. I would say this talk page section is counterproductive, when you could have just reverted the hatting and added your input. Or just made another section. Or a zillion other things that don't involve accusing editors of misconduct without citing any policy or guideline. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 14:30, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Just wanted to support Val here, as the improvements to Alt-Med in recent days have been done through rather informative and thoughtful talk page discussion. I also note that the discussion is not closed or hatted, perhaps I missed that. - Roxy the dog 15:55, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Roxy the dog, I responded to the complaint here by unhatting that thread. I had left a note explaining it could be unhatted if necessary. I have done it and removed that note. I did not hat it to prevent discussion or hide the matter, just to cleanup distraction. If it's necessary to discuss the matters in that thread, then we can discuss them. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:58, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Bottom line? I thing good work is happening. Thanks. - Roxy the dog 16:05, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Indeed. Most articles are in need of improvement, and as volunteers we act in good faith to do that. I'm not perfect and do make mistakes. I am open to correction, and I do listen to the concerns of others. I just find the approach here rather counter-productive. It comes across as a personal attack and unconstructive griping. There are more civil ways to do this. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:18, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Bottom line? I thing good work is happening. Thanks. - Roxy the dog 16:05, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Roxy the dog, I responded to the complaint here by unhatting that thread. I had left a note explaining it could be unhatted if necessary. I have done it and removed that note. I did not hat it to prevent discussion or hide the matter, just to cleanup distraction. If it's necessary to discuss the matters in that thread, then we can discuss them. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:58, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Just wanted to support Val here, as the improvements to Alt-Med in recent days have been done through rather informative and thoughtful talk page discussion. I also note that the discussion is not closed or hatted, perhaps I missed that. - Roxy the dog 15:55, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
No. 18: Censorship-Industrial Complex
Needs better sourcing. From Twitter Files.
On March 9, 2023, Matt Taibbi summarized his Testimony on the "Censorship-Industrial Complex" to the U.S. House Judiciary Select Subcommittee on the Weaponization of the Federal Government as Twitter Files #18.[1] Michael Shellenberger also summarized his Testimony on Twitter and included his testimony as a link in the Twitter thread.[2]
References
- ^ Matt Taibbi. Censorship-Industrial Complex; Michael Shellenberger, The Censorship Industrial Complex. U.S. Government Support For Domestic Censorship and Disinformation Campaigns, 2016 - 2022.Testimony by Michael Shellenberger to The House Select Committee on the Weaponization of the Federal Government, March 9, 2023. Summary.
- ^ Soave, Robby. Democrats Deride the Twitter Files Reporters as 'So-Called Journalists' Reason, March 10, 2023.
Valjean (talk) (PING me) 03:37, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
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■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 22:13, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
Precious anniversary
Three years! |
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--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:09, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
"Assault"
Re: Special:Diff/1146398416. Please tone it down. Being asked to use appropriate terminology is not assault. You've already been made aware once of the heightened expectations of editorial conduct in this topic area. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 17:27, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- And you own that topic area? Who gave you the right to intimidate other editors who are making good faith attempts to improve content? Stop bullying me. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:06, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
Notice of Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard discussion
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a report involving you at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement regarding a possible violation of an Arbitration Committee decision. The thread is Valjean. Thank you. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 18:30, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- Valjean, I get what you mean when you use "aggressor" but I also believe that the word could be understood as someone who initiates physical activity. [2] Perhaps you can instead word it that "X initiated the situation". Next, I'd have to say, you're kind of playing with fire, by mentioning male genitalia, with reference to a trans woman. I get your point, it's just that the issue is really sensitive. Some people might not agree with it. Lastly, if I were you, I would shut up at WP:AE at this point. starship.paint (exalt) 08:01, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- Valjean: FYI, cis is short for cisgender, and is not an acronym. See the article on that word for the etymology. Just mentioning it as I saw you refer to "CIS" a couple of times. Funcrunch (talk) 19:54, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, that's correct. Believe it or not, I actually knew that one. Was I mistaken to capitalize it? I often see it that way. BTW, I really appreciate this contact. I need all the help I can get to get up to speed on these issues and terminologies. Words are the foundation of everything. They express and form our understandings, so it's important to "get it right". You know far more than I do, so please stop by anytime. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:01, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- Hi Valjean, I may have messed up the ping, but wanted to ensure you saw my encouragement to you at User talk:Maddy from Celeste#An apology. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 21:51, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- Beccaynr, your latest comment deserves its own section, so I moved it. See "#Reparations" below. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:20, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Valjean if you were typing on your phone then there's a decent chance it would autocorrect to CIS. The reason behind that is that it is also the abbreviation for the Commonwealth of Independent States. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 19:05, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
- Immanuelle, I often edit on my phone, but am unsure if I did at that time. I probably would have capitalized it anyway, as I have seen that done many times. Now I know better. Thanks. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 02:31, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
- Hi Valjean, I may have messed up the ping, but wanted to ensure you saw my encouragement to you at User talk:Maddy from Celeste#An apology. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 21:51, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, that's correct. Believe it or not, I actually knew that one. Was I mistaken to capitalize it? I often see it that way. BTW, I really appreciate this contact. I need all the help I can get to get up to speed on these issues and terminologies. Words are the foundation of everything. They express and form our understandings, so it's important to "get it right". You know far more than I do, so please stop by anytime. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:01, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
Reparations
Hi Valjean, I appreciate your clear and active interest in learning more about this topic area, and I added a possible resource to your developing list of resources. In the meantime, I am wondering if you would consider striking the comments I identified in my statement at the pending AE request as potentially disruptive or battleground, to help bring the temperature down in this dispute.
As general background, I often favor a restorative justice approach to on-wiki conflict, which is part of why I think actively addressing some of your past statements could be beneficial, but it is because you have been so engaged in openness to learning, seeking feedback, and making apology that this seems like an idea to suggest for your consideration. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 15:04, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
- Beccaynr, I love your thinking. This would be really good, not just for me, but for everyone.
- In retrospect, I can now see that I wrote some really stupid things, partially caused by my ignorance, and also by my misidentification of Maddy. My mouse cursor had hovered over some other editor, and that little window of information had quickly revealed a relatively young cis woman, who said she was a newbie and who wanted any advice and help she could get. Then I got her mixed up with Maddy, and it wasn't until I did offer advice and Maddy responded by asking "Where did I ask for your advice?" that I discovered she was a different editor.
- That's when I first learned that Maddy was trans. It's very plain on her user page. By that time, a lot of damage and miscommunication had occurred. I tried to stay focused on the thread topic, but she kept hitting back at me, the editor, thus repeatedly violating the "comment on content, not editors" rule for talk pages. That really irritated, frustrated, and confused me. Therefore my response seemed aggressive and battleground. The real context (complete misunderstanding on both sides) was something entirely different than what it appeared. Therefore the whole affair should be reevaluated in that light. It felt like she was unfairly attacking me, the editor, and not staying on-topic, so we really talked past each other for a while before I got even a small clue what was happening. It was a real clusterfuck and recipe for disaster, and she took me to AE. The rest is history. I have tried to learn from it, and will continue that journey. I am very sorry for disrespecting her and the trans community. That was not my intention. Now I need to focus on the damage done.
- Your suggestion of what I'll call "reparations" is a good one. Striking my errors will be a good thing. I am still a newbie and quite ignorant, so I may not immediately recognize which words and other things in those conversations were problematic, so I'd appreciate your help. I'll take a look at AE (a painful experience and not good for my depression) and try to find and then address those things you mentioned. A very BIG thank you for being a true friend. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:20, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
- Beccaynr, I have now stricken those comments. I'm sure there are other goofs and unfortunate things like misgendering, but I'm not sure if it's constructive to keep striking. Maybe, maybe not. What do you think? The misgendering thing is still weird for me, as I have mistakenly thought that we should respect a person's gender identity choices and identify a person by the gender identity they used at a given time in their life, IOW to respect their choice at that time when speaking about that time in their life. That means referring to a young woman as "she" because that's how she identified herself at the time, and then later say "him" when "she" later transitioned to a trans man.
- It's confusing, but I'll get used to it. It just involves some mental gymnastics and pretty radical (Is there any other situation in life where this is allowed?) historical revisionism and memory holing. I have to impose a later identity onto the previous identity. Well, now the new understandings have to dominate and suppress the older understandings, memories, and practices. Unfortunately, without daily dealings with the person, it's more difficult to really learn. If I am not daily saying "he", then "she" tends to pop up. My wife's nephew (now a trans man) still deals with parents who have difficulty with this and frequently revert back to using
herhis birth name and birth gender pronouns when talking to him and others. I'm even further from that situation. I have tended to be as inconsistent as they have. We are all old people now, and it's really true that change does get harder. It sucks to be old, but what's the alternative? If you're not getting older, you're dead. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:08, 27 March 2023 (UTC)- Thank you very much, Valjean. I had mentioned in my AE statement that from my view, I recognize how you could feel a need to defend yourself personally, and how I also saw comments by several editors about language used as directed towards content, not you personally. In the past week, I have had fairly egregious personal attacks directed towards me personally, so in my experience, there can be a difference in how comments are made, but also recognize the potential impact when a comment about content feels like a personal strike against your core values.
- So from my view, there is a difference in comments that seem to assume your good faith by offering feedback about some language used in discussion (the content) - the assumption seems to be that you are open to reflection on and consideration of the feedback, just as you are now. I think there is a lot to reflect on for everyone involved about how to effectively communicate with our imperfect text-based methods, and I want to reiterate how appreciative I am of your demonstration of commitment to learning and development. With regard to other situations where terminology for people evolves over time, history has a variety of examples. While I was writing this comment, I also see you have taken further steps to follow up on my suggestion of striking various comments, and that it is also very much appreciated. Beccaynr (talk) 19:08, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, I have indeed received a lot of good feedback. I think everyone was acting in good faith. It was just a big miscommunication situation with a guy who didn't realize he was speaking the wrong language. Now I think I'll limit my engagement on transgender-related article talk pages until I can handle the terminology stuff much better. It's too risky right now, and wounds are still open. It will take time. I'll instead focus on the myriad other topics on my watchlist and the subpage I have started. That will be a safe place where I can discuss trans- and gender-related issues, a place where you and others are welcome to correct and teach me. The talk page hasn't been used yet, so feel free to open a discussion there. We really need a neutral place for NOTFORUM discussions. They ultimately make us better editors, so it's a justifiable use of user space. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:24, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think we all have to make our best judgments on participation in topic areas at any given time, and I applaud your focus on self-care and healing. I also appreciate the reminder about the Talk page of your userspace resource page - I think that is a great opportunity for discussion about resources, etc. I am actually in the midst of preparing (and somewhat procrastinating) to be on a medical wikibreak in the nearish future, so I may not have time or focus to contribute as much as I otherwise would prefer for now. I have my own self-care that I need to focus on as well, but I look forward to being able to participate in the future. Cheers, Beccaynr (talk) 20:08, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, I have indeed received a lot of good feedback. I think everyone was acting in good faith. It was just a big miscommunication situation with a guy who didn't realize he was speaking the wrong language. Now I think I'll limit my engagement on transgender-related article talk pages until I can handle the terminology stuff much better. It's too risky right now, and wounds are still open. It will take time. I'll instead focus on the myriad other topics on my watchlist and the subpage I have started. That will be a safe place where I can discuss trans- and gender-related issues, a place where you and others are welcome to correct and teach me. The talk page hasn't been used yet, so feel free to open a discussion there. We really need a neutral place for NOTFORUM discussions. They ultimately make us better editors, so it's a justifiable use of user space. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:24, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
Are my emails coming through?
I have never used the service before so I am unsure whether my responses are actually reaching you. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 19:03, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, Immanuelle, I see there are two emails waiting for me. I have just come home and will read them. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 02:34, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
User:Valjean/LGBTQ resources
.Org
Woulda thought ".org/hatewatch" is a .... little selective and slanted? Never mind. No worries. Kieronoldham (talk) 00:55, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
- The SPLC (like the ADL) is indeed a biased source, and NPOV allows us to use biased sources. If there is any risk of a question, follow my mantra for any opinion source: "When in doubt, attribute it." It is factual and on the right side of history. At WP:RSP, it is a greenlit source (the best rating):
- The Southern Poverty Law Center is considered generally reliable on topics related to hate groups and extremism in the United States. As an advocacy group, the SPLC is a biased and opinionated source. The organization's views, especially when labeling hate groups, should be attributed per WP:RSOPINION. Take care to ensure that content from the SPLC constitutes due weight in the article and conforms to the biographies of living persons policy. Some editors have questioned the reliability of the SPLC on non-United States topics. SPLC classifications should not automatically be included in the lead section of the article about the group which received the classification. The decision to include should rather be decided on a case-by-case basis.
- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:08, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
- This is a little vague as a justification? "When in doubt, attribute it" (perhaps as long as it perhaps adheres to one's personal preferences) and aye, this rationale could be open to be selectively utilized to push narratives or dogmas? Since when is Trump Jr. a "hate group/figure" (or has affiliated as such with)? No worries. This article ain't on my watchlist. Will add too many successive paragraphs begin with the same word.--Kieronoldham (talk) 01:25, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
- The source was about Jack Posobiec and how Trump Jr associates with people like him. We are known by our associates, and this is unsurprising as he is like his father. His father is close friends with Bannon, Alex Jones, and Hannity. Let that sink in. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:43, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
- I am not willing or wishing to engage in a text/verbal war with another Wikipedian (we are both better than that). Tarnish one; tarnish the other (father or son). I do not slant to one side. Sincere and best regards.--Kieronoldham (talk) 01:51, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
- The source was about Jack Posobiec and how Trump Jr associates with people like him. We are known by our associates, and this is unsurprising as he is like his father. His father is close friends with Bannon, Alex Jones, and Hannity. Let that sink in. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:43, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
- This is a little vague as a justification? "When in doubt, attribute it" (perhaps as long as it perhaps adheres to one's personal preferences) and aye, this rationale could be open to be selectively utilized to push narratives or dogmas? Since when is Trump Jr. a "hate group/figure" (or has affiliated as such with)? No worries. This article ain't on my watchlist. Will add too many successive paragraphs begin with the same word.--Kieronoldham (talk) 01:25, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
Administrators' newsletter – April 2023
News and updates for administrators from the past month (March 2023).
|
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- A community RfC is open to discuss whether reports primarily involving gender-related disputes or controversies should be referred to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard.
- Some older web browsers will not be able to use JavaScript on Wikimedia wikis starting this week. This mainly affects users of Internet Explorer 11. (T178356)
- The rollback of Vector 2022 RfC has found no consensus to rollback to Vector legacy, but has found rough consensus to disable "limited width" mode by default.
- A link to the user's Special:CentralAuth page will now appear in the subtitle links shown on Special:Contributions. This was voted #17 in the Community Wishlist Survey 2023.
- The Armenia-Azerbaijan 3 case has been closed.
- A case about World War II and the history of Jews in Poland has been opened, with the first evidence phase closing 6 April 2023.
Repeated edits to guideline during content dispute
Hi, please see WP:PGBOLD, which says: “Bold editors of policy and guideline pages are strongly encouraged to follow WP:1RR or WP:0RR standards. Editing a policy to support your own argument in an active discussion may be seen as gaming the system, especially if you do not disclose your involvement in the argument when making the edits.”
You’ve made two edits to a guideline today, in the middle of a content dispute which you did not disclose, while also ignoring a discussion I started at the guideline’s talk page. I reverted both edits to the guideline because I disagree with them, and I do not believe either one merely clarified what is already implied by the guideline. Please be more careful. Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:59, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
"Controversial subjects" revamp
Assange fabricates?
You said about Assange "He is a known fabricator of false information". What in particular are you thinking about thanks? NadVolum (talk) 22:56, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- Slandering the memory of Seth Rich and claiming Russia was not involved in the hacking and release of the stolen emails, statements which everyone but Trump supporters knew were obvious falsehoods. He did what he could to get the promised pardon from Trump. He knew it was impossible for Rich to be involved and that Russia had to be the culprit. He is allied with Russia and pushes their agenda. He is untrustworthy. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:09, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- Have a read the last paragraph of the section Murder of Seth Rich#Beginnings on social media. Exactly how was he suppoosed to know Seth Rich was not involved and that Russia was the culprit? Not that he ever definitively said they were or weren't as the sources are anonymous and he very possibly didn't know. NadVolum (talk) 08:02, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- NV, interesting you would not be aware of incidents such as this when Assange has shown his true colors. NPOV suggests we all survey everything available in RS publications, and if you will do so, it might greatly change and enhance your efforts in various articles, particularly related to Assange and his activities. SPECIFICO talk 11:10, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- What are you talking about? Did you not read what that paragraph said? HOw was Assange supposed to know who qwas who if the GRU and others are involved in deception? Are you just assuming he worked wth the Russians to spread lies and from that assumption you come to the conclusion he worked with the russians to spread lies? Or have you got something you can actually point to? NadVolum (talk) 11:16, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- NV, interesting you would not be aware of incidents such as this when Assange has shown his true colors. NPOV suggests we all survey everything available in RS publications, and if you will do so, it might greatly change and enhance your efforts in various articles, particularly related to Assange and his activities. SPECIFICO talk 11:10, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- Have a read the last paragraph of the section Murder of Seth Rich#Beginnings on social media. Exactly how was he suppoosed to know Seth Rich was not involved and that Russia was the culprit? Not that he ever definitively said they were or weren't as the sources are anonymous and he very possibly didn't know. NadVolum (talk) 08:02, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
NV, read the section "WikiLeaks statements". A dead man cannot continue to deliver info. Assange also knew he was dealing with Guccifer 2.0, already known to be a Russian source. Assange shares Putin's hatred of Clinton. He is a political activist who is far from neutral and will use unethical methods to serve his own purposes. He is clearly on the Russian side of the equation, just like Greenwald, Taibbi, and Trump supporters. They all support fascism and despise democracy. In April 2017, Trump-appointed CIA director Mike Pompeo called WikiLeaks "a non-state hostile intelligence service often abetted by state actors like Russia".[1] I doubt Trump was happy with that statement, but Pompeo had the real information which Trump tried to suppress. Pompeo knew that Russia, not Ukraine, China, Iran, or the Clinton campaign, was behind the hacking of the DNC and influence campaign against Clinton and for him. He knew that Putin was his ally and supporter, and he liked that. Even without the kompromat, he would have sided with Putin over America. That's because he political ethics are tied to money, not patriotism. Never before has America had a stooge of its greatest enemy in the White House. OTOH, that there was more pressure on Assange made Trump's offer of a pardon in August 2017 more appealing to Assange. Trump is an expert at the carrot and stick game. He threatens and then offers favors for loyalty. That's one of his major tricks for compromising those around him: "You are in trouble and have a serious problem, and I can save you if you will be loyal to me."
Anyone who shares their hatred of Hillary Clinton is suspect because they have bought into the conspiracy theories against her. 95% of the negative stuff about her is false and has its root in the old lies spread about her and her husband. She was clearly the most qualified candidate for the presidency, and yet a significant minority of Americans (but not a majority of the voters) voted against her because they believed the Russian propaganda against her, and Assange is a major player in that endeavor. Putin hates her because she is so strongly for democracy and against fascism, knows Putin like the back of her hand, knows that he can never manipulate her because he doesn't have any serious kompromat against her, and he knows she would have been a strong defender of American interests. Trump failed on all counts. He was is still #PutinsPuppet. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 14:00, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- As far as I know Guccifer 2.0 never said they were the original source of the leaks. I know people assumed that but it is ridiculous given the number and nature of the different hacks. As the Hill said in the second citation in that article 'He might not even be a single person'. So of course Assange could well be able to still contact them. And as the bit I pointed at shows the russians were careful to try and make it look like the leaks happened in America. Why should Assange who has been the target of attacks by american intelligence consider the russian theory as the most probable? Considering that abut half of America voted for Trump and I doubt a high percentage are fellow travellers I don't think labelling them the way you do is appropriate. Assange might have tipped the balance but I don't think he made a great difference. I can remember talking a few months before the election to some saying I thought Trump was an egomaniac who was using them and didn't care if they lived or died and would just try and aggrandize himself. But they wouldn't have it and believed Hilary was a devil despite her credentials in caring for families. That's when I started thinking that perhaps Trump really did have a chance. NadVolum (talk) 17:03, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- NV, Guccifer 2.0 was a persona, a "front" for many Russian intelligence hackers, IOW a cutout used to transmit information. (It was all about plausible deniability. Trump isn't the only one good at that game. Putin knows how to play it.) Guccifer 2.0 pretended to be the original Guccifer, who is a famous living Romanian hacker. The Steele dossier sources said it was Romanian hackers (plural) paid by Trump and Putin, and controlled by Putin, so Steele's sources were partially right. Assange, who is no ordinary person, but one who has worked in the shadowy world of hacking and spies for many years, had to have known it was Russians behind the hacking and behind Guccifer 2.0, his source. That was public knowledge at the time. Many reliable sources were pinning the blame on Russia. He could just believe it, but he had to protect his source, so he implied it was an innocent dead young man who was his source, except that a dead person cannot keep supplying one with information after his death. So Assange's source had to be the hackers who stole the emails and documents from the DNC, and everyone knew they were Russian intelligence. That's HOW he could have known. If he didn't "know", then it was willful blindness. Assange is not getting a pass on this one. Trying to blame the DNC for hacking itself and doing all it could to undermine its own candidate is one of the weirdest and most illogical conspiracy theories ever concocted.
- "WikiLeaks actively sought, and played, a key role in the Russian influence campaign and very likely knew it was assisting a Russian intelligence influence effort." p. vii. (Read the rest of that page.) "The Trump Campaign publicly undermined the attribution of the hack-and-leak campaign to Russia and was indifferent to whether it and WikiLeaks were furthering a Russian election interference effort."
- Senate: WikiLeaks Knowingly Assisted Russian Influence Effort Before 2016 Election
- So Assange, WikiLeaks, and Trump knew it was Russians and still actively helped the Russians. That's collusion. Then Trump went even further to provide cover for the Russians by offering Assange a pardon if he would divert any blame from the Russians, and Assange did that. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:58, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- Can I point you to Hanlon's razor about attribting malice where stupidity explains everything quite adequately. Assange may not be any ordinary person, but there is no reason to assume he is any more intelligent than any of the other people in this business. Do you first of all acknowledge that the argument about that Assange was in contact with Guccifer 2.0 and therefore knew that Rich couldn't be the hacker is simply false and that you have now changed your grounds? And now above you have changed the Muller investigations result that he probably knew into that he knew? I guess you are talking about Dana Rohrabacher about the pardon. In that you're giving a third opinion different from that of Rohrabacher who said Trump never made any such offer and Assange who could not accept such an offer. As an illustration of stupidity I see that Rohrabacher said he still believed Rich was the source of the emails. NadVolum (talk) 22:38, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- You'd do much better to read the relevant sources before doubling down on this. They tell us Assange went out of his way to give the appearance that Mr. Rich was his source. Namechecking Hanlon is ironic, given your proclivity for personal disparagement of other editors. SPECIFICO talk 23:22, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- NV, there are several things to parse in what you wrote, so I want to be sure I understand you correctly.
- I agree that the question of how much Trump and his campaign colluded with Russia is subject to discussion. The question of "conspiracy" and "coordination" was partially answered by the Mueller Report (he was unable to prove it, largely because of obstruction of the investigation and destruction of evidence). That leaves questions about "collusion" and "cooperation", which were proven in spades. Whether that cooperation was witting or unwitting was also answered. Any failures to successfully collude were not for want of trying (bumbling attempts that were not always successful). Mueller deals with this question by explaining that he focused only on the first two and specifically did not focus on "collusion". Nevertheless, his investigation found myriad ways Trump and his campaign colluded, cooperated, aided and abetted, helped, covered up, lied about, and otherwise did all they could to help Russia's efforts to weaken America and help Trump win.
- You write: "Do you first of all acknowledge that the argument about that Assange was in contact with Guccifer 2.0 and therefore knew that Rich couldn't be the hacker is simply false and that you have now changed your grounds?" I don't think I have changed my grounds. Assange knew he was in contact with Guccifer 2.0. He also knew that Seth Rich was dead, yet implied that Rich was his source, not Russians.
- As to what he knew, are you talking about Assange or Trump? Regarding Trump, read the ending of the lead at Senate Intelligence Committee report on Russian interference in the 2016 United States presidential election.
- Rohrabacher's denial is deceptive. Assange's lawyers, in court, made it plain that Rohrabacher told them he had direct authorization from Trump to make the offer of a pardon. That's in the court record. Trump and Rohrabacher later tried to backtrack. You can never trust Trump or those around him. The only times they tell the truth are when they are no longer defending Trump. (To defend him requires lying.) Then they are allowed to tell the truth, such as when Cohen tells the truth about his dealings when Trump. We must not be naive. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:49, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- So you think that an offer to Assange which he doesn't take up is evidence of something against Assange? And I fail to follow what you say about Assange talking to Guccifer 2.0 after Rich's death should have indicated that Rich was not the leaker of the emails. All it indicated was that Rich was not Guccifer 2.0. NadVolum (talk) 00:06, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Now I'm really scratching my head. Assange did take up the offer. He did all he could to remove the blame from the Russians. Now please tell me you don't believe that Rich stole and leaked the emails, that the Russians were not behind the many hacks (starting in June 2015) and leaks, and that instead, the DNC did ALL OF THAT and ALL it could to hurt itself and wound its candidate so it could pin the blame on Russia and Trump, all to increase Hillary's chances to win, and even when it did cause her to lose some votes, she still won the most votes by a large margin. Please tell me you don't believe that. Pleeeeassssse!!??!! -- Valjean (talk) (PING me)
- So you think that an offer to Assange which he doesn't take up is evidence of something against Assange? And I fail to follow what you say about Assange talking to Guccifer 2.0 after Rich's death should have indicated that Rich was not the leaker of the emails. All it indicated was that Rich was not Guccifer 2.0. NadVolum (talk) 00:06, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Can I point you to Hanlon's razor about attribting malice where stupidity explains everything quite adequately. Assange may not be any ordinary person, but there is no reason to assume he is any more intelligent than any of the other people in this business. Do you first of all acknowledge that the argument about that Assange was in contact with Guccifer 2.0 and therefore knew that Rich couldn't be the hacker is simply false and that you have now changed your grounds? And now above you have changed the Muller investigations result that he probably knew into that he knew? I guess you are talking about Dana Rohrabacher about the pardon. In that you're giving a third opinion different from that of Rohrabacher who said Trump never made any such offer and Assange who could not accept such an offer. As an illustration of stupidity I see that Rohrabacher said he still believed Rich was the source of the emails. NadVolum (talk) 22:38, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
From Murder of Seth Rich#WikiLeaks statements:
Julian Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks, fueled the speculation in an interview with Nieuwsuur published on August 9, 2016, which touched on the topic of risks faced by WikiLeaks' sources.[2] Unbidden, Assange brought up the case of Seth Rich. When asked directly whether Rich was a source, Assange said "we don't comment on who our sources are".[3] Subsequent statements by WikiLeaks emphasized that the organization was not naming Rich as a source, as they do with other leaks.[4]
According to the Mueller Report, WikiLeaks had received an email containing an encrypted file named "wk dnc link I .txt.gpg" from the Guccifer 2.0 GRU persona on July 14, which was four days after Seth Rich died.[5][6][7] In April 2018, Twitter direct messages revealed that even as Assange was suggesting publicly that WikiLeaks had obtained emails from Seth Rich, Assange was trying to obtain more emails from Guccifer 2.0, who was at the time already suspected of being linked to Russian intelligence.[8] BuzzFeed described the messages as "the starkest proof yet that Assange knew a likely Russian government hacker had the Democrat leaks he wanted. And they reveal the deliberate bad faith with which Assange fed the groundless claims that Rich was his source, even as he knew the documents' origin."[8] Mike Gottlieb, a lawyer for Rich's brother, noted that WikiLeaks received the file of stolen documents from the Russian hackers on July 14, four days after Rich was shot. Gottlieb described the chronology as "damning".[9]
- I don't believe Rich leaked anything. The whole business above though is based on Wikileaks receiving a cache of DNC leaks four days after Rich died from Guccifer 2.0. It is quite common for such caches to be delayed days or weeks or even more while they are inspected. Four days can be seen as either damming by people who want to see it that way, or confirming since it is so short after the death by those who want to see it another way. Other people seem to be assuming Guccifer 2.0 was Rich whereas they claimed to be Romanian - and the persona was seen as a front for releasing hacks or leaks from a number of people. I'm not privy to what went through Assange's mind about Seth Rich but he seems fairly paranoid - if that is the right term for someone for whom paranoia is pretty rational. For all I know he believed the conspiracy theories or the machiavellian you think, but he never actually said Rich was the source - presumably for the simple reason he had no way of knowing and the GRU aren't all that bad at covering up or feeding people with believable lies. I personally assume stupidity as a first guess. NadVolum (talk) 08:39, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- I have never heard anyone speculate that Seth Rich might have been Guccifer 2.0. That's a new one. Guccifer 2.0 was quite active before and very long after Rich's death, so the theory that Guccifer 2.0 might have been releasing stuff provided by Rich before his death just doesn't hold water. Read Guccifer 2.0#Timeline of Guccifer 2.0. There is zero evidence that Rich had anything to do with anything related to Trump-Russia. ZERO. It's all a very nasty conspiracy theory. Read Murder of Seth Rich. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:04, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Well the statement that Assange contacted Guccifer 2.0 and got email data four days after Rich died was damming proof that Assange knew Rich was not the leaker would certainly be read by many if not most people as meaning that Assange was saying Rich and the leaker Guccifer 2.0 were the same person and he had just been shown up for lying. NadVolum (talk) 17:59, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Your personal theories, which are quite at odds with RS reports and quite confused, are not worth discussing. It's pointless and you'll just get more and more frustrated. Our job is simply to convey what the weight of sources tell us. There's no question that the mainstream views the Assange/Rich thing as a rather shameful and revealing little misstep in Assange's descent from credibility. SPECIFICO talk 18:07, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Well the statement that Assange contacted Guccifer 2.0 and got email data four days after Rich died was damming proof that Assange knew Rich was not the leaker would certainly be read by many if not most people as meaning that Assange was saying Rich and the leaker Guccifer 2.0 were the same person and he had just been shown up for lying. NadVolum (talk) 17:59, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
References
- ^ Strobel, Warren; Hosenball, Mark (13 April 2017). "CIA chief calls WikiLeaks a 'hostile intelligence service'". Reuters.
- ^ Nieuwsuur (August 9, 2016). "Assange belooft nieuwe onthullingen over Clinton" (in Dutch). Nieuwsuur. Archived from the original on March 19, 2018. Retrieved March 18, 2018 – via YouTube.
- ^ Nieuwsuur (August 9, 2016). "Julian Assange on Seth Rich". Archived from the original on August 2, 2017. Retrieved August 2, 2017 – via YouTube.
- ^ Morton, Joseph (August 10, 2016). "WikiLeaks offers $20,000 reward for help finding Omaha native Seth Rich's killer". Omaha World-Herald. Archived from the original on August 22, 2017. Retrieved February 11, 2018.
- ^ Mueller Report Archived April 19, 2019, at the Wayback Machine, vol. I, p. 46: On July 14, 2016, GRU officers used a Guccifer 2.0 email account to send WikiLeaks an email bearing the subject "big archive" and the message "a new attempt."163 The email contained an encrypted attachment with the name "wk dnc link I .txt.gpg."
- ^ Mueller, Robert S. "Report On The Investigation Into Russian Interference In The 2016 Presidential Election" (PDF). Archived from the original (PDF) on April 19, 2019. Retrieved 19 April 2019.
- ^ Poulsen, Kevin (18 April 2019). "Mueller Report: Assange Smeared Seth Rich to Cover for Russians". The Daily Beast. Archived from the original on April 19, 2019. Retrieved 19 April 2019.
- ^ a b Collier, Kevin (April 5, 2018). "These Messages Show Julian Assange Talked About Seeking Hacked Files From Guccifer 2.0". BuzzFeed News. Archived from the original on April 7, 2018. Retrieved April 7, 2018.
- ^ Mervosh, Sarah (20 April 2019). "Seth Rich Was Not Source of Leaked D.N.C. Emails, Mueller Report Confirms". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Archived from the original on April 20, 2019. Retrieved 24 April 2019.
Editorializing?
I saw your comment that tagged me and said I did improper editorializing. The reason I included that comment was because it was originally from the start of the quoted paragraph. Your diff My diff Source
Yet journalists are quick to defend anyone who uncovers and disseminates information, as long as it’s genuine, by whatever means and with whatever motives. Julian Assange is possibly a criminal. He certainly intervened in the 2016 election, allegedly with Russian help, to damage the candidacy of Hillary Clinton. But top newspaper editors have insisted that what Assange does is protected by the First Amendment, and the Committee to Protect Journalists has protested the charges against him.
The connection seemed clear so I wanted to include it especially since other editors think Im antiAssange. I didnt know if you saw that part of the text and wanted to know if you still thought it was POV editorializing.
Im not here to argue I just want to understand and learn from my mistakes because I was trying here to do the NPOV thing and if I went too far or misunderstood I want to understand so Im just here to double check
Thank you anyway Softlemonades (talk) 13:49, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- I see what you mean. I just didn't think it was necessary to add editorial emphasis on top of what the quote already said. It seemed like overkill. Then the other editor included your comment in the quote, and that was just too much, so I nuked it. I never implied you had made that error. Now it's been revised. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 14:11, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- You were clear about the quote not being my fault and you included the diff for my edit, which made it very clear what I did. Thanks for that.
- And thanks for explaining here. I saw
omment was improper POV editorializing added by User:Softlemonades
and wanted to know if I was going way too far or misunderstood something and I trust your judgment even if we disagree Softlemonades (talk) 14:22, 19 April 2023 (UTC)- It's a matter of opinion whether you went too far. It was the other editor who really did something egregious, not you. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:08, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- That depends on whether you think the sense is more important that the exact copying of a selection of the words. I responded to your 'We can never assume that Assange is telling the truth. He is a known fabricator of false information and political operative who pushes his own agenda' which seemed to miss the whole point of what was said. I then realized an exact quote was needed and was fixing that up when you reverted. As you saw I chopped out the middle to include the relevant bit rarher than having a big quote. I did not consider what SoftLemonades has put in now as saying anything much more, the citation don't actually say they believe he is a criminal nor that he knowingly used information from russia and the sentence removed says they don't particularly care because the information is genuine. I'm not going to change what's there now but I don't think the change actually reflects their view in their support for him properly. NadVolum (talk) 19:09, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- As far as Assange knowing he was helping Russians, see the section above. He and Trump both knew and continued to knowingly help the Russians. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:03, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- That's not what the Mueller report said about Trump or Assange and if anything was going to try and say it that was. NadVolum (talk) 22:44, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- Mueller is more complicated than that, and the Senate report that said
WikiLeaks actively sought, and played, a key role in the Russian influence campaign and very likely knew it was assisting a Russian intelligence influence effort
[3] Softlemonades (talk) 23:14, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- Mueller is more complicated than that, and the Senate report that said
- That's not what the Mueller report said about Trump or Assange and if anything was going to try and say it that was. NadVolum (talk) 22:44, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- As far as Assange knowing he was helping Russians, see the section above. He and Trump both knew and continued to knowingly help the Russians. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:03, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- That depends on whether you think the sense is more important that the exact copying of a selection of the words. I responded to your 'We can never assume that Assange is telling the truth. He is a known fabricator of false information and political operative who pushes his own agenda' which seemed to miss the whole point of what was said. I then realized an exact quote was needed and was fixing that up when you reverted. As you saw I chopped out the middle to include the relevant bit rarher than having a big quote. I did not consider what SoftLemonades has put in now as saying anything much more, the citation don't actually say they believe he is a criminal nor that he knowingly used information from russia and the sentence removed says they don't particularly care because the information is genuine. I'm not going to change what's there now but I don't think the change actually reflects their view in their support for him properly. NadVolum (talk) 19:09, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- It's a matter of opinion whether you went too far. It was the other editor who really did something egregious, not you. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:08, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
Mueller's investigation was an aborted, crippled, and bungled attempt to deal with an issue made impossible by Trump's corruption of the justice department, intelligence agencies, and his open obstruction of all investigations. The Senate Intelligence Committee went further and made some stronger conclusions. See Senate Intelligence Committee report on Russian interference in the 2016 United States presidential election. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:56, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- And you think they got more information than Mueller? Trump talking to Wikileaks via Stone! that's a good one. Have a look at the Jerome Corsi article to see how that got on! NadVolum (talk) 00:22, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Do you know something that we don't? Please provide the sources. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:16, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- I thought the article showed that much of the contact was a sham put on by Stone. But I'm not going to argue the point, there undoubtedly was some contact between Wikileaks and some people in Trump's camp. And anyway you've answered my query about why you thought Assange fabricated things thanks. NadVolum (talk) 11:35, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Do you know something that we don't? Please provide the sources. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:16, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- And you think they got more information than Mueller? Trump talking to Wikileaks via Stone! that's a good one. Have a look at the Jerome Corsi article to see how that got on! NadVolum (talk) 00:22, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
Advice to a newbie
Just saving this here...
Ask yourself a few questions:
- Did I ever criticize the POV of an article?
- Did I ever criticize the political POV of a source?
- Did I ever criticize other editors?
Those are all dangerous things for any newbie to do. Start by assuming good faith that articles are written by editors who use good sources to write good content. If you disagree with any of those things, then assume you are on the wrong side of history, do not understand the issues, do not know how to vet sources for reliability, have been getting my info from bad sources, and don't know Wikipedia's policies and guidelines well enough to do much more than completely neutral and minor copy editing yet. Start by assuming you are likely wrong and then seek clarification from other editors without arguing with them. Believe their explanations because they are likely correct. Seriously. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:07, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
Exact ages
FYI: You mentioned in BLPN about not having exact ages. This report notes DOBs, however, it would not be acceptable for use as there is no clue who uploaded it. Still, I don't have any reason to doubt its authenticity. -Location (talk) 21:39, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Location, thanks for this. If I understand that arrest report (1-28-2004) correctly, only one of the girls was a minor (b. 9-2-1987). The other was born on 10-11-1983.
- Lauren, his girlfriend, was a minor at the time (b. 12-16-1986), and had Tyler, her first son, on March 21, 2005, when she was 18. She and Jayson married in 2007. I agree we can't use this as a source.
- This RS closely follows details in the police report. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me)
- Great find. A 1/28/1987 DOB would make her 16 at the time of the arrest, so it seems "teen" was right. Also, jeez, those witness reports were distressing to read. But I'll keep my thoughts on Mr. Jayson Boebert to myself.BTW, Valjean, that quote by you at the top of this page is pretty rad. Matches my feelings exactly. DFlhb (talk) 23:50, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Which quote?
- BTW, I hope you notice that I am not edit warring about this business. I think the process is proceeding as it should, and I'm perfectly content to bow to consensus. Thanks for your efforts. You're a good-faith editor, so keep up the good work. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:54, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- "The best content is developed through civil collaboration between editors who hold opposing points of view." Matches my experience — DFlhb (talk) 23:56, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, it's an important thing. We all come from various backgrounds, read different sources, have our own biases, etc. That automatically means we tend to provide the information we know of, so it's the responsibility of others who read other sources to provide the balancing POV. Wikipedia is based on the idea that no one knows everything, but everyone knows something others may not know. When we act collaboratively with good faith, wonderful things happen. Great content is the result. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 00:01, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- re: your edit: I do notice, and I appreciate you; not just for that page but all the other pages where we've met. I started editing Wikipedia just last September, and in that time, the only editors that truly frustrated me were those who had zero clue (CIR). I've already been in half a dozen content disputes where after the dispute, the other editor remained not just polite, but actually kind. In real life, that's utterly mundane, but on the internet, I wouldn't have expected it in my wildest dreams, and it's been humbling, in a wholesome way. Wikipedia's pretty neat, and I'm grateful for editors like you. Also very much enjoyed reading what's below. I think you and my dad would have gotten along quite well, since he had a pretty wild childhood too. Have an awesome Sunday, — DFlhb (talk) 00:46, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- "The best content is developed through civil collaboration between editors who hold opposing points of view." Matches my experience — DFlhb (talk) 23:56, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
This whole Lauren and Jayson Boebert romance reminds me of my young days. My first serious girlfriend was 16 when I was 18. The age of consent was 16. She was far beyond me in experience, and she wrapped me around her finger. She came to my parties and enjoyed the sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll, etc. She set her sights on me and proceeded to seduce me, dropping her boyfriend in the process. She caught me totally off guard. I was really naive. She got drunk and told her boyfriend to just go home and she would have me drive her home when she was more sober. Once out the door, she plied her tradecraft expertly. This was already after an afternoon where some of us went skinny dipping in a neighbor's pool. She was already pretty handsy under the water then. That late evening turned romantic, sexy, and then a bit tragic, as after midnight she got strong stomach pains, then passed a black mass. We saved it and drove to the ER. It was what was left after an abortion. As I said, she was much more experienced. We were together for a year, then she left me for a guy with a massively huge dick. We had been playing strip poker on my waterbed and she got an eye for him. Later, after a botched marriage and a child, she stopped me on the street and apologized and said she had given up a good thing. That was nice of her. Life was interesting, to say the least. She was a real wild child.
Here are some of the songs that remind me most of those days: "Summer of '69"[4], "A Whiter Shade of Pale"[5], "Hotel California"[6], "Comfortably Numb"[7], "All Along the Watchtower"[8], "Born to Be Wild"[9], "Black Magic Woman"[10], "Soul Kitchen"[11], "Long Cool Woman in a Black Dress"[12], "Season of the Witch"[13], "Mellow Yellow"[14] -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 00:11, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
Why did you do this?
Hm?. --Jayron32 17:29, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Was it wrong to reactivate your close? I was under the impression I was undoing an irresponsible or vandalistic thing by some opposer of your close, but maybe I was wrong. If you really rescind your close, feel free to undo my edit. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:40, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- I really did. Did you not read my note? --Jayron32 17:48, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Oh! I missed that. Sorry. On what basis? SNOW closes are allowed without waiting a long time. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:49, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- On the basis of "a bunch of people asked me to".
- Also, can you self-revert yourself. I can't undo your revert of my close, because that would be WP:WHEELWARing, and I'd rather not have my admin tools removed today. Thanks. --Jayron32 17:51, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Done, although I disagree. An early close is standard practice and fully justified in a SNOW situation, as this clearly was. Those arguing to rescind your close use bogus arguments. I really thought some vandal had come by and undone your close. I thought "How dare they? Jayron32 is in my pantheon of highly-respected admins, and it's just wrong for anyone to do this! I'll undo this vandalism." -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:59, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for your kind words, but people asked, in good faith, that I undo myself, and I saw no reason to not oblige them. WP:NORUSH and all that. If the consensus I read when I closed it still exists in 26 more days or so, then it will be closed then with the same effect. No big whoop. --Jayron32 18:12, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Okay, but once again Fox, like Trump, is treated differently than all other sources. They get a free pass, preferential treatment, and an exemption to the normal rules. We routinely and quickly have blacklisted and deprecated many sources for far less serious issues than those that plague Fox News. This Fox exemption is like the Trump exemption, a demonstration that the normal rules do not apply to them. Even RS does not apply to them. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:18, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- So, I don't have a horse in the race. You're bringing up opinions to explain how you voted in the discussion. That's fine and good, but I haven't given any opinions, and don't intend to, nor was I using any opinions I may have on Fox News to influence how to read the consensus. That's an inappropriate way to close a discussion. When I (or anyone else) closes a discussion, they put aside any personal knowledge or opinions they have, read the consensus, and close the discussion summarizing the consensus. Once you start getting into the merits of the proposal itself, that's where it's a problem. --Jayron32 12:28, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
- Okay, but once again Fox, like Trump, is treated differently than all other sources. They get a free pass, preferential treatment, and an exemption to the normal rules. We routinely and quickly have blacklisted and deprecated many sources for far less serious issues than those that plague Fox News. This Fox exemption is like the Trump exemption, a demonstration that the normal rules do not apply to them. Even RS does not apply to them. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:18, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for your kind words, but people asked, in good faith, that I undo myself, and I saw no reason to not oblige them. WP:NORUSH and all that. If the consensus I read when I closed it still exists in 26 more days or so, then it will be closed then with the same effect. No big whoop. --Jayron32 18:12, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Done, although I disagree. An early close is standard practice and fully justified in a SNOW situation, as this clearly was. Those arguing to rescind your close use bogus arguments. I really thought some vandal had come by and undone your close. I thought "How dare they? Jayron32 is in my pantheon of highly-respected admins, and it's just wrong for anyone to do this! I'll undo this vandalism." -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:59, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Oh! I missed that. Sorry. On what basis? SNOW closes are allowed without waiting a long time. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:49, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- I really did. Did you not read my note? --Jayron32 17:48, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
Jayron32, I agree that personal preferences and political opinions should not factor into a close, and you do it right. My complaint is with the general history of how we have treated Fox News. We treat Fox and Trump differently, preferentially, much better than other sources, and that's contrary to policy. We shouldn't play favorites. We should not make exceptions for bad behavior and allow sites like Fox to get away with it because they are so popular, as clearly expressed in this excellent analysis:
- "For absolutely any other source, it would've been considered generally unreliable or deprecated years ago. The only reason it hasn't been is because it's extremely popular, and we're all afraid that the huge number of people who watch Fox News will add Wikipedia to the list of "liberal media" -- that catch-all group of publications which include liberal perspectives alongside any outfit that doesn't prioritize catering to or cultivating conservative beliefs. At the end of the day, we don't want to alienate anyone; we want people who hear news about election fraud from Fox, etc. to come to Wikipedia and read our articles about election fraud. Maybe even follow the links and read some material they wouldn't otherwise consume. Fox's only value to this project is the extreme loyalty and trust so many people put in it. It is not valuable as a source of information on politics or just about anything, but like a Boob Tube Demagogue, we can bet that it won't hesitate to stoke outrage among its viewers with a bunch of "Wokepedia" stories. That's the main reason I've opposed multiple past efforts to downgrade Fox -- it's just a cost-benefit analysis predicated on the fact that we already don't really permit Fox to be used for politics for all of the reasons above."
The phrases "That's the main reason I've opposed multiple past efforts to downgrade Fox" and "cost-benefit analysis" really horrify me. If those are really the reasons for some editors to !vote as they have, then we have a problem, because, just like with NPOV (editors' opinions should not be added to the content we create), editorial favoritism and opinion is given primacy over how we should neutrally apply policy, and Fox and Trump have been given preferential treatment.
In a discussion of the Trump exemption with an editor who consistently defends Trump and Fox in an improper manner, I mention how they apply IAR for Trump: "You are the one who linked to IAR in your rely. WP:Common sense redirects to IAR. Maybe you didn't realize that? You should nominate that redirect for deletion as well, because it is not common sense to IAR in relation to Trump. Your use creates an exemption for him not given to others."
My point is that we have always IAR in relation to Teflon Don Trump and Fox News, and I see that as problematic. It's time that stopped, and in this latest RfC, I see that a couple editors who normally protect Fox News have actually moved, but some of the usual suspects do not. There is literally nothing Fox can do wrong which will move them. Look at the editing patterns of those who defend Fox in the RfC. You will see extreme protectionism of Fox and Trump, a type of protectionism that causes them to ride roughshod over multiple PAG, create disruption, and block progress in the same topic areas usually lied about by Fox and Trump.
We need to create a policy or guideline that deals with protectionism as violations of NOTCENSORED, NPOV, and PUBLIGFIGURE. PAG and RS take primacy over editors' personal opinions. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:38, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
- I mean, okay I guess? It's still not relevant to the matter at hand, as far as my involvement in it. There was a discussion, I closed it in good faith. Others made reasonable objections, so I reopened the discussion. That's really the end of the matter, and your long analyses of Fox News and discussions thereof at Wikipedia could be true, and also have no bearing at all on what has happened so far, and what could still happen with the current discussion. Basically, "yes, but so what". The current discussion will be closed at some unspecified point in the future, likely by someone not me (since I botched it once already. I may screw up a LOT of things once, I never screw them up twice), and they will assess the consensus at that point in the future. Off the record, I expect the next 30 days to feature only a small handful of new comments (probably not more than 4-5 , and maybe not even that many) and the end result will be that the next person to assess the consensus will have basically no more extra information than I did, and we'll have basically wasted the extra month on nothing. But, then, the extra time wasted only justifies my initial close all that much more. So let the objectors have their extra month of silence. It's kinda fun to watch. And you know what, if I am wrong about that, and there's a tidal wave of hundreds of additional opinions that come in, then I was wrong to have closed it in the first place. Either way, nothing is lost. Either I'm entertained because I get to feel smug and self-righteous for a month, OR I was wrong to have closed it, and a mistake would have been corrected. I call that a win-win situation. --15:48, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
I don't know the answer to this but I bet you do
When did the existence of Crossfire Hurricane first become publicly known? In 2017, right? I think this should be noted in the article. soibangla (talk) 02:09, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, it should. It's a notable lapse. I don't recall the exact first time it became public. It might be mentioned in one of the timeline lists. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 02:19, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
Administrators' newsletter – May 2023
News and updates for administrators from the past month (April 2023).
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- A request for comment about removing administrative privileges in specified situations is open for feedback.
- Progress has started on the Page Triage improvement project. This is to address the concerns raised by the community in their 2022 WMF letter that requested improvements be made to the tool.
- The proposed decision in the World War II and the history of Jews in Poland case is expected 11 May 2023.
- The Wikimedia Foundation annual plan 2023-2024 draft is open for comment and input through May 19. The final plan will be published in July 2023.
"Please see" template
A cool template:
{{subst:Please see|link}}
Discussion at link
You are invited to join the discussion at link. Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:46, 10 May 2023 (UTC) Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:46, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
Durham report nothingburger
Look at the vain attempts at spinning this [15] Andre🚐 00:57, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- Pretty sad. It changes nothing regarding the findings of myriad secretive contacts with actual Russian agents and how the Trump campaign invited, welcomed, cooperated, aided and abetted, lied about, facilitated, encouraged, did not prevent interference, and tried to prevent U.S. intelligence from doing its job because Trump "expected to benefit" from Russian interference. Sounds like collusion to me.
- Durham focused on two things that had little effect on the evidence for Russian election interference and how Trump benefited from Putin putting him in power. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:17, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
WP:NOTFORUM |
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SPA, NOTFORUM SPECIFICO talk 21:47, 16 May 2023 (UTC) |
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Propaganda in China / Censorship of Wikipedia
I noticed that the below (the reference links are included on the articles) keeps getting removed from Propaganda in China and Censorship of Wikipedia. Any thoughts?
- Despite being censored in mainland China, and as VPNs are normally not allowed to edit Wikipedia, Wikipedia administrators from China have permitted IP block exemptions for a select number of mainland users. Such users are recruited to change the editorial content on Wikipedia in support of China's viewpoint and/or to support the election of pro-Chinese government administrators on Wikipedia, with the aim of gaining control of Wikipedia. Academics suggested that “China urgently needs to encourage and train Chinese netizens to become Wikipedia platform opinion leaders and administrators … [who] can adhere to socialist values and form some core editorial teams.”
- The pro-Beijing Wikipedia community, the Wikimedians of Mainland China (WMC), have clashed with Wikipedia editors from Taiwan, not only over Wikipedia's content, but also making death threats made against Taiwan's community of Wikipedians. One Taiwanese editor suggested that it was not just patriotic mainlanders, but a "larger structural coordinated strategy the government has to manipulate these platforms" beside Wikipedia, such as Twitter and Facebook. The Wikimedians of Mainland China (WMC) also threatened to report Wikipedia editors to Hong Kong's national security police hotline over the disputed article "2019–2020 Hong Kong protests" characterized by edit warring. A Hong Kong-based editor, who remains anonymous because of fears of intimidation, noted that "Pro-Beijing people often remove content that is sympathetic to protests, such as tear gas being fired and images of barricades. They also add their own content". Acknowledging that "edit wars" happen on both sides, the anonymous editor stated that "Pro-democracy editors tend to add content to shift the balance or the tone of the article, but in my experience, the pro-Beijing editors are a lot more aggressive in churning out disinformation. It's now unfixable without external interference. Someone is trying to rewrite history."
- On 13 September 2019, the Wikimedia Foundation banned seven Wikipedia users and removed administrator privileges from twelve users that were part of Wikimedians of Mainland China (WMC). Maggie Dennis, the foundation's vice present of community resilience and sustainability, said that there had been an yearlong investigation into “infiltration concerns” that threatened the "very foundations of Wikipedia". Dennis observed that the infiltrators had tried to promote "the aims of China, as interpreted through whatever filters they may bring to bear", suggesting possible links to the Chinese Communist Party. Dennis said “We needed to act based on credible information that some members (not all) of that group [WMC] have harassed, intimidated, and threatened other members of our community, including in some cases physically harming others, in order to secure their own power and subvert the collaborative nature of our projects”.
HertzUranus (talk) 19:10, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I'm not involved in that topic at all. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:12, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Donald Trump page
Hi Valjean, you recently added two adjectives, myriad and suspicious, to the Donald Trump page, with three cites supporting those two words, a total of over 900 bytes for two additional words. We still have the size problem, and, considering the various ongoing investigations and lawsuits, it’s going to get bigger. (The Guardian article on Steele is dated and would probably be less positive now.) The first paragraph of the section says that CIA, FBI, and NSA were investigating the links — that says "suspicious" in big neon letters. And "myriad" is a bit too hyperbolic. We have two RS supporting our sentence that the links between Trump associates and Russia were widely reported in 2017. That the Durham investigation would face-plant was to be expected. IMO, it doesn’t add to or contradict anything that we mention at Donald Trump. I’ll get around to looking at Russia_investigation_origins_counter-narrative#Durham_investigation and Durham special counsel investigation - the walls of text in that one are a big job, so I’ve been putting it off. Long story short - would you consider removing "myriad suspicious" and the three sources? Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 15:02, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- How about "many suspicious" without the sources? That's certainly accurate. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:09, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- Done. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:18, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- I got interrupted when I was half-way through the following comment, so I'm adding it now.
- I have to agree with the other editor that it's a bit op-edish but if you think it's necessary I can live with it. I think "Once discovered" can be rmeoved, as well. It's kind of duh - couldn't have reported an unknown unknown (don't know why I'm suddenly chaneling Rumsfeld). According to the NYT, Special Counsel Smith is now looking into Trump’s "business dealings in foreign countries since he took office", and E. Jean Carroll isn't done suing Trump, so we should be saving as much space as possible for current events. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 16:07, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- I agree. Is my edit now good enough? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:10, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- Just had a look at Donald Trump - great! Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 16:13, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- Hi! I just showed up here because @Valjean referenced their user talk page in their edit summary. Yeah, I'd still say that the "suspicious" line is a bit overkill (and something of a OP-ED/MOS:LABEL issue)—I've worked on a few articles involving criminal trials, and I can't imagine seeing a line like "a number of [the defendant's] actions were suspicious" and thinking "oh that's fine". But I don't find it terrible, so if you feel quite strongly about it, I'm okay with it.
- I am a bit apprehensive about keeping it in there without a source. (I know you removed the prior sources per Space's request, though even that source was a bit imperfect for saying "suspicious" in Wikipedia's voice—it said "sources in the US and the UK found that the contacts between Trump associates and Russians 'formed a suspicious pattern'").
- I'd like to hear more from @Space4Time3Continuum2x on this, and if Space has no more concerns, I'll drop it, but my thought is that anyone reviewing the article is going to see the term "suspicious" and have alarm bells go off—precisely because it's the type of word that triggers alarm bells when made in Wikipedia's voice. So, they'll check the source at the end of the sentence ... and find that the source doesn't support that claim. I know it might be a long time before the Trump page is stable enough to pass a GA review, but if I were reviewing the article and saw that word used—particularly without a source to support it—I'd count that against the article.--Jerome Frank Disciple 17:57, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- I agree. Is my edit now good enough? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:10, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
The ominous atmosphere writ large
Just looking at my watchlist ([16], [17]) and seeing what is happening as hard right extremists take over Twitter and other sites in real time (I met Jack Dorsey when he first started the site, he's not a right wing extremist, but Musk, who knows?), and watching the latest Nazi attack on the White House, and wondering about the 60,000 pounds of missing explosives. Does it seem to you (as it does to me) that things are building to a crescendo here in the states? Viriditas (talk) 09:27, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
- It's not good. Extremist views were mainstreamed by Trump, the Russian/Trump effort to divide this country and pit people against each other, and the ignorance of Nazis and Russia as enemies (I'm old enough to understand why) of democracy and America is indeed worrying. Often one can say it will get worse before it gets better, but I don't see any "better" coming down the road. The damage done is too great and lunacy is now mainstream. We'll see more homegrown extremists, Christian radicals, white nationalists, and Trump/Putin allies carry out more acts of violence and mass shootings. This is no time to weaken the FBI or CIA, yet we have Congress critters who want to do just that. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 12:19, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
Viriditas, Trump and his supporters keep telling us who they really are. Violence? Heck yes! Immorality? Yes, let him grab ME by the pussy! The Constitution? Only if it helps me and screws anyone who doesn't like Trump. If the Constitution is in Trump's way, they trash it, just like he does. Nazis and KKK? Good people. It's all so far out that many don't take them seriously, but every time they are given a chance to demonstrate their real intentions, they really go there, no matter how despicable a place it is. Here's pro-Trump podcaster Jesse Kelly:
Let me tell you all an uncomfortable truth: This country needs a dictator,” Kelly tweeted to his nearly 640,000 followers. “As the great John Adams said, a free country only works for a ‘moral people.’ We are not worthy of freedom. A dictator is coming.”
One Twitter user responded, “Weimar problems eventually lead to Weimar solutions,” referencing Germany’s Weimar Republic, that historians say created conditions that led to the rise of Adolf Hitler. Kelly responded simply, “There it is.”[18]
There is literally no place they will not follow Trump. When one thinks he's hit the absolute bottom of the barrel, the lowest common denominator for human foolishness and deception, he just blasts a hole in it and aims for the center of the earth. He defined the standard he wanted of his followers. They should be willing to not change their vote and to keep following him, even if he murdered someone on 5th Avenue. He wanted people with no moral compass, no scruples, no common decency, and he's created them. After that message from him, anyone who didn't abandon him then has no standing in decent society. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:13, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
- You're completely misunderstanding them. Conservatives in general think they have a strong moral compass and that people like you are wishy washy and compromise on fundamental principles. For someone like that yes Trump has problems but he has stood against abortion. For someone like that their neighbours and family are who are important to them not someone in another state. They will stand up for and believe someone they know not someone in Washington. The poor in some city are not their problem and Mexicans are aliens. They will give generously to help their neighbour but not to give medical aid to someone distant - they think they should look after themselves like they do and are morally bankrupt because they haven't. Trump addresses their issues, his problems are elsewhere. NadVolum (talk) 22:23, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, been there, done that. I was raised a Reagan Republican in a fanatical, conservative, anti liberal, anti left-wing, very religious, Christian, home.
- Fortunately, we belived in the Constitution, were pacifists, believed in honesty, morality, freedom of and from religion, allowing others full freedom, as long as it didn't impinge on the noses of other people, and that everyone, especially the poor, minorities, and disenfranchised, deserved love, tolerance, and acceptance.
- We believed that the biblical "fruits of the spirit" were good, and people like Trump embody the very opposite and are a danger to society because they will use deceit and force to get their way and persecute others. We are now seeing the rise of fascism in America, with strong forces determined to create a violent civil war, and Trump appeals to those people. Not good. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:02, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
- I'm gobsmacked that Sinclair Lewis was writing about this in 1935 (It Can't Happen Here), and yet in 88 years, the psychology of America hasn't made much progress. That's almost four generations living under the same existential threats as their ancestors. Something is wrong with this picture. If Philip K. Dick was still around, he would say "the Empire never ended". Viriditas (talk) 09:10, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
- I am an American who has lived in Europe for much of my adult life, and I am often shocked at the political naivete of Americans. They are generally less educated and informed than Europeans. They are often clueless about what a privilege they are born with to live in a constitutional republican democracy with so much freedom. They squander their potential. They should know better than to be so easily fooled by Putin's Puppet. He exploits their ignorance to his own ends. "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge." (Hosea 4:6 NKJV)
- Europeans know that education is the most important foundation of any enlightened society, so they treat education and health care as human rights and make them easily accessible to everyone within their borders without a doctor's bill or tuition fee. They, as societies, consider these things so important that they are willing to pay higher taxes to fund easy access to everyone. It's also cheaper for the individual to get their health care and education this way than to pay for private health insurance or pay tuition. That leaves them with more money in their hands for other expenses. When they speak of oppression and crushing poverty, they call it "American conditions". They look to America as a theoretically ideal society that sadly does not police its own politicians and super-wealthy oppressors. They see Americans as the victims of their own ignorance and apathy, with a huge class of poor and uninformed Americans where these conditions should not be a problem. SMH! -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:16, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
- I'm gobsmacked that Sinclair Lewis was writing about this in 1935 (It Can't Happen Here), and yet in 88 years, the psychology of America hasn't made much progress. That's almost four generations living under the same existential threats as their ancestors. Something is wrong with this picture. If Philip K. Dick was still around, he would say "the Empire never ended". Viriditas (talk) 09:10, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
Years ago, when I was doing research on the counterculture of the 1960s, particularly the counterculture specific to the US, I came across some archival material (which I cannot recall) which suggested that this time in history was a turning point in education for the country, as a decision was made by conservative political leaders to restrict education to only those who could afford it, thereby reinforcing the status quo and preventing any recrudescence of the student protests and rebellion that they attributed to mass education of the general public post-WWII. In other words, there was a lingering belief that the mass education of American youth during this time led to mass protests demanding social change, which gets at your point above. The powers that be figured this out and began to clamp down on access to education rather than implement social democracy or any kind of reform. Subsequently, higher education was no longer cheap or free and began to increase in price. At least, that's the general theory behind the current state of affairs. More recently, particularly in the post-9/11 era, we've seen an even further restriction of education in the states, this time the overall denigration and defunding of the humanities in favor of STEM fields which primarily support the business and finance sector as foot soldiers of free enterprise. It's not a coincidence that many of the most conservative, anti-democratic Trump supporters in the US are also members of the highest echelons of advanced engineering. STEM without humanities is a pathway to turnkey, technocratic fascism. These are also the same people preaching the wonders of techno-utopian AI adoption that will replace most jobs, while at the same time opposing UBI at the highest political levels. Sadly, education is the least of our problems in the US now, as we are veering towards full inverted totalitarianism at this point. I debate with Trump supporters every day, and there's no kind of education that would ever fix this wipe open chasm. They have a thirsty lust for blood that cannot be fulfilled through ideas alone. They are beyond any kind of education at this point. Viriditas (talk) 09:28, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- Wow you've certainly got it in for science and engineering! I think you're just describing basic conservative values. There's lots of billionaires who are on the opposite side as well. Unfortunately there's a lot in the middle too who just like to hold onto money and see the economy as a zero sum game and the conservative mindset fits in with what they want. Together they fund these 'think tanks' to get people to believe anything that is in their funders' financial interest. NadVolum (talk) 11:18, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- I don’t have it in for science and engineering. I’m referring to the political thesis put forward by Gambetta & Hertog 2016 that could have implications for the US. "The engineer mind-set, Gambetta and Hertog suggest, might be a mix of emotional conservatism and intellectual habits that prefers clear answers to ambiguous questions — “the combination of a sharp mind with a loyal acceptance of authority.”[19] Viriditas (talk) 17:47, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- Well it certainly sounded to me like you do. I haven't read the book but it seems to me that they are trying to fit engineers into a left-right wing spectrum - whereas their training and aims go in another direction towards resolute pragmatism with a willingness to learn. If things are very bad they want to fix them - and yes I'm afraid pragmatism can involve violence, right or left wing values will be given consideration but the main aim is to make things work. I'm afraid ethics in engineering normally only covers things like honesty and communication and integrity and not liberty, equality and fraternity. If you can clearly say what is wrong and needs fixing, and better yet some measure of success, then you'll have engineers on your side. NadVolum (talk) 21:37, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- One would have to be a self-declared Luddite to be against science and engineering, as it forms the fundamental backbone of modernity and points us towards the future. Per this discussion, the thesis that I am demonstrating is as follows: the US has a problem with right wing political violence and extremism, not left wing; access to education has certainly exacerbated the problem, but the disconnect between a liberal arts education and STEM may also inform the divide; Gambetta & Hertzog (2016) illustrate this problem, showing that "engineers among [extremist] U.S. right-wing groups seem strongly overrepresented". In their example, 31% of the extremists in their small US sample have engineering degrees compared to just under 12% of the population. Viriditas (talk) 21:58, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- Well it certainly sounded to me like you do. I haven't read the book but it seems to me that they are trying to fit engineers into a left-right wing spectrum - whereas their training and aims go in another direction towards resolute pragmatism with a willingness to learn. If things are very bad they want to fix them - and yes I'm afraid pragmatism can involve violence, right or left wing values will be given consideration but the main aim is to make things work. I'm afraid ethics in engineering normally only covers things like honesty and communication and integrity and not liberty, equality and fraternity. If you can clearly say what is wrong and needs fixing, and better yet some measure of success, then you'll have engineers on your side. NadVolum (talk) 21:37, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- I don’t have it in for science and engineering. I’m referring to the political thesis put forward by Gambetta & Hertog 2016 that could have implications for the US. "The engineer mind-set, Gambetta and Hertog suggest, might be a mix of emotional conservatism and intellectual habits that prefers clear answers to ambiguous questions — “the combination of a sharp mind with a loyal acceptance of authority.”[19] Viriditas (talk) 17:47, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
You also get things like Why Does the Tech Workforce Lean Left?. They're both seeing things from their own perspective of a left-right spectrum. NadVolum (talk) 22:34, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- That’s an entirely separate argument. I’m discussing the participation of engineers in extremist right wing movements. While the modern tech workforce leans left, consumers are very much the product, and that approach runs counter to progressivism and social progress in general. This has all sorts of ramifications and inclinations, such as the loss of privacy, algorithic bias, the manipulation of ideas and behavior, and the blurry lines between the corporate and government sphere. These arguments are not directly related to my discussion, but tangentially have influence, such as the alleged radicalization of social media users. There are many authors who discuss this, and do in fact blame leftist elites for the rise of the populist right through their inaction at the bureaucratic level. One of the most discussed issues in this regard was the loss of manufacturing jobs in the US, which the Democratic Party was unable to do anything about, and likely made worse with the passage of NAFTA (which over time contributed to the rise of right wing populism, along with the usual Koch-financed suspects). Totally different set of arguments. Viriditas (talk) 23:11, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- I am learning a lot from this discussion! New thoughts. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:30, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- I think NAFTA with the side bits about labour and the environment was a well thought out agreeement. America has a bit of a schizophrenic attitude to it but I'm glad to see the successor is fairly reasonable too, and frankly I was surprised they were able to do that under Trump instead of messing everything up. NadVolum (talk) 23:07, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- See Hakobyan & McLaren 2016. It seems many people (including yourself) are unaware of it. There's another source (that I've misplaced at the moment and cannot find) that shows that US leaders had been warned since at least 1992 (possibly earlier) that NAFTA would hurt blue collar workers. This is what Hakobyan & McLaren show. The numbers are unclear on how many US jobs were lost, with low estimates of around 60,000 to higher ones of about 2.5 million. This also formed the basis of Ross Perot's criticism at the time before it was passed by Clinton. Still, another source (can't recall the name right now), shows that this impact on blue collar workers led to deep resentment towards US institutions and contributed to the rise of Trump and the fomentation of right wing domestic violence. Looking at the news indexes, the status quo of defending the legacy of NAFTA was in high swing up until 2013, when it seems to have dried up, with people like Steven Rattner finally challenging Gary Hufbauer and the Peterson Institute who had been defending it without evidence for so many years. Rattner notes at least half a million jobs moved to Mexico from the US due to NAFTA; the consensus on globalization has rapidly shifted in recent years, from treating it as an overwhelming success before the Great Recession, to now looking at it as a massive failure and misstep. Given that the Democrats have moved so far to the right in the intervening years (and Republicans are on the precipice of outright fascism), there is no legitimate political movement that truly represents the interests of working Americans that can successful challenge the future of trade which benefits American workers from the perspective of a stakeholder. Further, Gilens & Page 2014 famously showed that US representatives no longer vote on behalf of their constituents but rather for their donors, who are elite business interests. Other researchers have shown that by and large, the average US rep is far more conservative than the district they represent (given what Gilens & Page found). The general consensus from the working class is that both parties in the US have been captured by the dominant corporatocracy, which has diminished democracy and democratic institutions in favor of hyper-capitalism and free market fundamentalism. From this POV, NAFTA was not only a failure, but directly undermined the stability, the security, and the integrity of the US. Viriditas (talk) 10:11, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
- This is what I mean about schizophrenic. Or just want everything and think they've been hardly done by if they give anything away when making a deal. Do you want less people coming in from Mexico? Do you want America to have a large market it can sell into? You do realize China isn't part of the free-trade area and it was wiping the floor with America anyway? I'm afraid people around the world are already looking to become more insular because of the bully boy tactics of China and America, insular as well as a bully boy is how China and America will be seen in future and it will do them no good at all. NadVolum (talk) 13:08, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- I believe the solution is global governance and binding international law, which raises wages for everyone, preserves the environment in every country, and provides a roadmap to peace, security, and global stability. Conservatives everywhere are adamantly against this because it tends to lower their profits, spreads the wealth around and diminishes inequality, and gives workers stakeholder status which limits the power of shareholders. That’s the problem in a nutshell. This is why the right wing is inherently anti-democratic at its very core. The secondary problem, is that so-called liberals, neoliberals, and Democrats have sided with the right on this topic, which means the US basically has a one-party system when it comes to labor and trade. Viriditas (talk) 21:44, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
- This is what I mean about schizophrenic. Or just want everything and think they've been hardly done by if they give anything away when making a deal. Do you want less people coming in from Mexico? Do you want America to have a large market it can sell into? You do realize China isn't part of the free-trade area and it was wiping the floor with America anyway? I'm afraid people around the world are already looking to become more insular because of the bully boy tactics of China and America, insular as well as a bully boy is how China and America will be seen in future and it will do them no good at all. NadVolum (talk) 13:08, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- See Hakobyan & McLaren 2016. It seems many people (including yourself) are unaware of it. There's another source (that I've misplaced at the moment and cannot find) that shows that US leaders had been warned since at least 1992 (possibly earlier) that NAFTA would hurt blue collar workers. This is what Hakobyan & McLaren show. The numbers are unclear on how many US jobs were lost, with low estimates of around 60,000 to higher ones of about 2.5 million. This also formed the basis of Ross Perot's criticism at the time before it was passed by Clinton. Still, another source (can't recall the name right now), shows that this impact on blue collar workers led to deep resentment towards US institutions and contributed to the rise of Trump and the fomentation of right wing domestic violence. Looking at the news indexes, the status quo of defending the legacy of NAFTA was in high swing up until 2013, when it seems to have dried up, with people like Steven Rattner finally challenging Gary Hufbauer and the Peterson Institute who had been defending it without evidence for so many years. Rattner notes at least half a million jobs moved to Mexico from the US due to NAFTA; the consensus on globalization has rapidly shifted in recent years, from treating it as an overwhelming success before the Great Recession, to now looking at it as a massive failure and misstep. Given that the Democrats have moved so far to the right in the intervening years (and Republicans are on the precipice of outright fascism), there is no legitimate political movement that truly represents the interests of working Americans that can successful challenge the future of trade which benefits American workers from the perspective of a stakeholder. Further, Gilens & Page 2014 famously showed that US representatives no longer vote on behalf of their constituents but rather for their donors, who are elite business interests. Other researchers have shown that by and large, the average US rep is far more conservative than the district they represent (given what Gilens & Page found). The general consensus from the working class is that both parties in the US have been captured by the dominant corporatocracy, which has diminished democracy and democratic institutions in favor of hyper-capitalism and free market fundamentalism. From this POV, NAFTA was not only a failure, but directly undermined the stability, the security, and the integrity of the US. Viriditas (talk) 10:11, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
That was odd
With Floozy Official blocked now, that seems a relief. An odd occurence indeed. I'm slightly concerned about them saying [...] if the past few months have proven anything... nevermind.
: do you think they may have been a sockpuppet then, as their account was created yesterday? That may explain the odd behaviour. Schminnte (talk • contribs) 21:33, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
- Very likely, and the threat to return will likely be as a sock. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:48, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
Parsing
This is currently paused as it may be based on some wrong information. Seeking clarity now. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
From Talk:Durham special counsel investigation#First sentence Let's try to parse this issue raised by DonFB:
Elements to compare and parse:
I'm going to venture that DonFB means "Clinesmith's case" when he writes "this case". So is Clinesmith's case "related to the origins of the FBI investigation"? Let's look at the facts. We're dealing with the "investigation (1) into the investigators (2)", so we end up easily conflating the two investigations. That creates confusion. Are we talking about 1 or 2? 1=Durham and 2=CFH. Chronologically, 2 comes before 1. If you're not confused yet, then kudos to you! Clinesmith can only be related to 1=Durham, as 2=CFH closed before Clinesmith's illegal shortcut alteration of a FISA application. Therefore, "Clinesmith's case", tried and convicted by Durham, was "unrelated" to the CFH investigation, which had already closed. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:13, 26 May 2023 (UTC) |
Accidental revert
Hi! I saw that you reverted and then restored my edit at Homeopathy. No worries about that, I was fully expecting someone to revert it because they didn't notice what I had changed at first :) In my opinion, Template:Multiref is an amazing tool and I wish its use were more widespread. Actualcpscm (talk) 21:04, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree. When there are four or more refs in one spot, it's really handy. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:54, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
- "Multiref is intended to be used with shortened references." Good point. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:56, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
- That‘s true, but it‘s still very useful with full length refs imo Actualcpscm (talk) 22:32, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how this works. Actualcpscm, will shortened refs that refer to full refs in the template still work? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:20, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- From my testing, invoking named refs (as in WP:NAMEDREF) does not work. Shortened ones work perfectly fine, and so do the usual templates (cite journal, book, web, etc). Weirdly enough, assigning a name to a reference in Multiref breaks it and causes it to render as the source text. So it takes some markup, but not all. Actualcpscm (talk) 07:55, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how this works. Actualcpscm, will shortened refs that refer to full refs in the template still work? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:20, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- That‘s true, but it‘s still very useful with full length refs imo Actualcpscm (talk) 22:32, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
- "Multiref is intended to be used with shortened references." Good point. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:56, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
Things that "Led to the Rise of English Wikipedia’s Credibility"
Fascinating stuff! Well worth the read.
Steinsson traces the change in the content of English Wikipedia over time to suggest that the combination of ambiguous institutional rules and certain editors leaving the site helped Wikipedia transition from being a source that hosted pro-fringe discourse to one that gained credibility as an active fact-checker and anti-fringe. A close examination of the content of selected Wikipedia articles, their publicly available editing history, as well as the comments made by the editors, allows Steinsson to show that a change in the interpretation of Wikipedia’s Neutral Point of View (NPOV) guideline affected the nature of content in its articles. As the interpretation favored by anti-fringe editors became popular, pro-fringe editors faced increasing challenges and began to leave Wikipedia. This shift in the balance between pro-fringe and anti-fringe editors, which was a result both of the way editorial disputes were resolved and the exit of pro-fringe editors, made Wikipedia gain credibility as a source that debunked myths and controversies and did not promote pseudoscience.[21]
Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:25, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- Actually I think it is a bit more nuanced. I remember looking up some fringe theories years ago in Wikipedia and they were totally rubbish, not because they espoused the fringe theories but because anti-fringe editors made them unreadable with their crusade against them removing anything which they saw as possibly supportive so they did not even describe the theories properly. Looking again they properly describe what they are about and what people see in them as well as having the evidence against them. They are now far better and more informative artcles. NadVolum (talk) 23:19, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
Page moved
Hi again. I noticed you created the page User:Valjean-Fringe theory dk, which I have boldly moved to your user subpage User:Valjean/Fringe theory dk. I've tagged the original page for deletion under U2 and G6. Cheers, Schminnte (talk • contribs) 15:19, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- OMG! Schminnte, thanks for catching that. I guess I accidentally used a dash instead of a slash. Thanks again. I have just experimented and discovered why that happened. My keyboard was still set to Danish (dk), and an English slash becomes a Danish dash. Duh! -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:05, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
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See: Biden–Ukraine conspiracy theory
Biden and Trump performed similar actions, the withholding of financial aid to Ukraine, but for very different reasons.
Then-Vice President Biden withheld loan guarantees to pressure Ukraine into firing a corrupt prosecutor because he was not performing his job of fighting corruption, which included investigating Burisma and its corrupt owner, actions which would have placed Hunter Biden in more jeopardy, if he had been involved in corruption in Ukraine.
Then-President Trump unsuccessfully tried to pressure Ukrainian President Zelenskyy in a quid pro quo manner to start a publicly announced investigation of Burisma and the Bidens in exchange for the release of congressionally mandated financial and military aid to Ukraine and the promise of a Trump–Zelenskyy meeting at the White House. This predicated Trump's first impeachment charge of abuse of power. Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:26, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
Weird
Reddit went down at the moment WaPo reported charges against Trump were filed, which was around 21 minutes ago. It’s still not back up and nobody has been able to post reports about it or discuss it. Viriditas (talk) 00:05, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
- It's back, but what is this about Trump? I have been eating and all media were turned off. Has it finally happened? Is there a God after all? Wow!!! -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 00:36, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
Federal prosecution of Donald Trump
Reade's "friend"
Good to see the cited source returned. Technically, the source doesn't say that Reade considered Butina to be her "long time friend," instead Reade just said that Butina was "my friend". Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 22:00, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
- AzureCitizen, that was my fairly accurate paraphrase of this: "We've known each other for quite some time now." -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 22:45, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
- In order to ensure we're on the same page here, are you saying that you were paraphrasing Reade saying "We've known each other for quite some time now"? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 23:56, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
- Yes. She also calls Butina a "friend", and those words imply a "long-time friendship". -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:59, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the confirmation. Okay, the problem here (and the reason why I made this edit in the first place) is that it wasn't Reade who said that, it was Butina. Please read the source again carefully, it says "We've known each other for quite some time now," Butina said in asking Putin himself to “fast track” Reade’s citizenship request. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 00:05, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
- Yes. She also calls Butina a "friend", and those words imply a "long-time friendship". -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:59, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
- In order to ensure we're on the same page here, are you saying that you were paraphrasing Reade saying "We've known each other for quite some time now"? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 23:56, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
About DOBs
Hey, I thought you might benefit from some insight into how and why I became a stickler for unsourced DOBs.
Several years ago, I noticed that the Wikipedia:WikiProject Days of the year (DOTY) pages were becoming a complete mess with incorrect and unverifiable info. The project had literally declared the pages exempt from needing sources (yes, really!).
As a result, almost none of the DOTY pages had any sources to back things up, based on the naive (and against Wikipedia policy) belief that all entries would be backed by reliable sources in the linked article. It turns out that was not the case and the DOTY pages were filled with incorrect info and even worse, other places started believing the info there and publishing the incorrect info in newspapers, for example on "Today's date in history" type listings - classic citogenesis.
So about 6 years ago the DOTY project found sanity and we now require all new entries on those pages to be backed by direct reliable sources. Several of us have gone through and started cleaning DOTY pages up. May 11 is an example of where we want to be. For details see the content guideline, the WikiProject Days of the Year style guide or the edit notice on any DOY page.
The DOTY project members have asked participants to go through their birthday page and clean the entries up by adding reliable sources to each entry, or removing entries where reliable sources aren't readily available in the linked article. We've made significant progress, but there's still a lot of work to be done.
In the process of doing this, we've learned that many of the linked articles have no sources for the DOB, like in the case of Maggie Haberman before you fixed it, so many of us are cleaning a little more broadly than just the DOTY articles as we encounter unsourced DOBs.
Cheers! Toddst1 (talk) 20:41, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
- I love it! This is a thoroughly admirable, and non-optional, POV. I believe that literally all content, other than "the sky is blue" type of info, must be backed by RS. Literally all. If anything might be questioned by a reasonable person (not a vandal), then a source should be added or the content removed. If it's probably true, then a cn tag should be added. If that issue is not resolved with a good RS within a reasonable amount of time, then it should be deleted. (Is there a place where we can see old tagged issues?)
- So how do we document nonsense (pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, etc.) that is only promoted by unreliable sources? It's often easy to do because RS mention it. Then we document it by citing the RS. We use the framing it gets from the RS. That places it in context as it relates to mainstream thought.
- So again, everything must be backed by RS, and we should only use an unreliable source in its own article per SPS and ABOUTSELF. There is more about all this on my user page. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:08, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
- As to ABOUTSELF. I put my date of birth down wrong by mistake in my last job application and they wished me happy birthday on the day. Very embarassing when I looked blank! 😀 🎈 NadVolum (talk) 08:22, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
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- Two arbitration cases are currently open. Proposed decisions are expected 5 July 2023 for the Scottywong case and 9 July 2023 for the AlisonW case.
A kind behavioral reminder
I saw your comment at [22] (someone like that) and found it distasteful; normally I wouldn't say anything but you are fresh off an WP:AE discussion about similar behavior, and you are an experienced and prolific editor. Beccaynr's comment here [23] (be very careful when about talking about the personal characteristics of editors and to avoid suggesting that anyone is a representative for their particular (marginalized or majority) group.) seems apt. Striking that comment might be a good idea. Regards, SmolBrane (talk) 17:50, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
- I had no idea the editor was transgender and was not referring to anything remotely related to that topic. Where did you get that idea? Fringe and trans are very different matters. You do realize you're comparing apples to oranges by taking advice for a discussion on a very contentious LGBTQ article talk page (and in principle all article talk pages) and applying it to a discrete comment on a personal talk page? I did not name the editor, and it would be advisable for you to just drop it rather than deliberately trying to inflame the matter, as that form of disruption would be on you. We try to deflate issues, rather than inflame them. Remember the Streisand effect. If you press this, you will be at fault. I'm already aware of the danger and impropriety of personalizing issues on article talk pages. On private talk pages, we are allowed to make our views known. Fringe editors and/or those who tend to support fringe POV are often discussed in such places because the cause problems. Don't be seen as defending such behavior. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:14, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
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Trump's false claims of "no collusion"
The "no collusion" phrase and narrative are Trump's lies, unfortunately often repeated by reliable sources. There is no evidence Mueller ever said such a thing. here's some reading for you:
- False or misleading statements by Donald Trump#Denial of collusion with Russia
- False or misleading statements by Donald Trump#Special counsel investigation
- Mueller report#Conspiracy or coordination vs collusion
- Mueller report#False "no collusion" claims
- We need to make a whole article about Trump's false claims of "no collusion"
So it's okay to say that Mueller was unable to prove "conspiracy" and "coordination", even though there is some evidence for it, but it's not okay to say that Mueller did not find evidence of "collusion" or that there was "no collusion" between Trump and his campaign with the Russians. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:58, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- We go by what RS say. If RS says "no collusion," then that's what we will say on Wikipedia, regardless of your personal opinions on the matter. The Mueller Report concluded in plain language that the investigation "did not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities," widely reported in RS, so that's what our content will reflect. Mr Ernie (talk) 14:26, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- You just don't get it. You're mixing terms. It's not my opinion. I am documenting what RS say, and the fact that many RS mistakenly say "no collusion", in spite of the fact that Mueller did not say that. We document mistaken opinions here. We do not make the mistake of believing them or confusing opinions for facts. That's where you go wrong, and you've been doing it for years. Are you incapable of learning?
- FACT: Mueller "did not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated"
- MYTH: Mueller said "no collusion" or that there was "no collusion". Both are myths and repetitions of Trump's falsehoods, and many RS fell into that trap. We document that.
- Use the right words. (Do you even understand the difference? Is English your second language?) Now which articles are getting it wrong? Name them. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 14:39, 7 July 2023 (UTC) Ping Mr Ernie. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:11, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- We document what RS say. If Mueller said conspired or coordinated but RS say collusion we report what RS say. That's basic WP policy. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:13, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- Yes? We document both facts and opinions, even false opinions like that there was no collusion. It's foolish to believe such false opinions, even if they are found in RS.
- You are not addressing what I wrote above. Are there any articles where we're getting this wrong? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:18, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- We document what RS say. If Mueller said conspired or coordinated but RS say collusion we report what RS say. That's basic WP policy. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:13, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
Facts:
- Trump and his campaign colluded in myriad ways with the Russians and aided them in their interference in our elections.
- Trump and his campaign lied about it and claimed there was "no collusion".
- Rudy Giuliani admitted that Trump's campaign colluded with the Russians.
- Many RS make the mistake of using the words "no collusion", even though they are false.
- Trump may well have conspired and coordinated with the Russians.
- Mueller was unable to prove "conspiracy" and "coordination", partially because Trump obstructed the investigation and much evidence was withheld or destroyed.
Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:58, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
Notice
Discussion pages are meant to be a record of a discussion; deleting or editing legitimate comments is considered bad practice. Look at the talk page for a discussion of why the comment is relevant to the article. Thanks. Chamaemelum (talk) 01:43, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- I have replied there. Comments that out and attack editors are not good content. Discuss content, not editors. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:45, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
Autigender
could you add autigender or autism gender please? ParticularDarling (talk) 05:59, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- I have no idea what you're talking about. Please provide links. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:19, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- https://www.lgbtqia.wiki/wiki/Autigender ParticularDarling (talk) 18:44, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
https://www.shoretherapycenter.com/blog/autigender-autism-gender-identity#:~:text=Autigender%20is%20a%20term%20that,be%20separated%20from%20one%20another ParticularDarling (talk) 18:39, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- Neither of those are RS. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:57, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- What’s Rs? I’m sorry! ParticularDarling (talk) 19:10, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- @ParticularDarling see WP:RS. 93.72.49.123 (talk) 19:11, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
- Here’s more sources I found! https://www.google.com/books/edition/Trans_Bodies_Trans_Selves/gN5eEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22autigender%22+-wikipedia&pg=PA85&printsec=frontcover ParticularDarling (talk) 19:23, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- https://www.mdpi.com/2411-5118/4/1/10 ParticularDarling (talk) 22:54, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15299716.2023.2214134 ParticularDarling (talk) 22:55, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- What’s Rs? I’m sorry! ParticularDarling (talk) 19:10, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
Valjean! At last, we see each other plain.
Nice username ;)
If you're unaware, Les Mis is touring again in the US; hope you get a chance to see it (I'm guessing again) this time around. Happy almost-Bastille Day! Combefere ★ Talk 17:54, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- "Valjean, at last, we see each other plain" I would love to see it. I saw it in Copenhagen. It's my favorite book and musical. You might enjoy this. The young revolutionaries. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:13, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- I found the tour website. If I'm lucky, I might be able to get tickets. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:17, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
I'm a fan of Lea Salonga. After Miss Saigon, she also did Les Mis and was in both the 10th and 25th anniversary concerts. Her version of "On My Own" is by far the most viewed on YouTube. Absolute perfection. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:20, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- I have to agree! The 10th Anniversary Concert is my favorite rendition. I have tickets for this tour; I don't expect them to match the performance of that incredibly cast, but I am excited to see it again and to share the experience with a partner who has never been.
- Also, since you're a fellow fan of the book (there's dozens of us!), might I recommend the Les Miserables Reading Companion Podcast (also on Spotify) by Briana Lewis? She's a professor of French language and history at Allegheny College. She goes through and explains a lot of the culture and context and even etymology that get lost in translation from the original French to the English novels, chapter by chapter. I found her analysis and commentary as mesmerizing and interesting and Hugo's. Combefere ★ Talk 19:24, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
Here's the full 10th Anniversary concert. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:05, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
Please
Hello, could you help me improve this English in this article Kevin Peraza https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Peraza — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.219.223.137 (talk) 17:06, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
Rest assured
I'm convinced of your pro-vaccine bona fides, and I think your !vote in the RfC is right on the money.
I'm also grateful that your comments have prompted me to look for examples of good organization to follow. Right now I'm flipping through the political biographies that have made it to Featured status; I didn't know that John Adams and Vladimir Lenin were both on that list! XOR'easter (talk) 02:34, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
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RFK Jr.
Move to article talk space. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
The RFC clearly states that there is no consensus to remove "propaganda". Yes, some voters favor "misinformation", however, more favor "propaganda". So why "no"? --Julius Senegal (talk) 18:55, 21 July 2023 (UTC) |
BLP issue
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 11:19, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
Bias
You are an absolute left-wing nut job. I suggest you seek therapy relating to your rampant TDS and anti-Fox bent.