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[[User:LoveMonkey|LoveMonkey]] 15:59, 2 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:I don't see what you mean. Can you give me a [[Help:Diff|diff]]? [[User:Tom harrison|Tom Harrison]] <sup>[[User talk:Tom harrison|Talk]]</sup> 16:07, 2 July 2007 (UTC) |
:I don't see what you mean. Can you give me a [[Help:Diff|diff]]? [[User:Tom harrison|Tom Harrison]] <sup>[[User talk:Tom harrison|Talk]]</sup> 16:07, 2 July 2007 (UTC) |
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==BP Information== |
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I liked what you wrote regarding BP, however it does not seem to connect. The section is about Operation Ajax obviously, and while BP is mentioned, the subject is not BP. I am not sure if the company is of interest to you, perhaps you can write something more closely related to the time period of the subject regarding BP or the company it was formerly known as that would serve as an intro, or outro. However the information you added takes place some 20 years later and seems disjointed. Thank you. --[[User:SixOfDiamonds|SixOfDiamonds]] 17:06, 3 July 2007 (UTC) |
Revision as of 17:06, 3 July 2007
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Please do not edit the Le Rosey page. You should not be able to affect the nature of that page for the same reason why you did not study there. The world is not equal.
Please do not edit the Le Rosey page. You should not be able to affect the nature of that page for the same reason why you did not study there. The world is not equal.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.77.253.191 (talk • contribs).
DRV for HHO gas
An editor has asked for a deletion review of HHO gas. Since you closed the deletion discussion for this article or speedy-deleted it, you might want to participate in the deletion review. Arkyan • (talk) 15:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
And the AfD does not seem to have been closed. If you have speedied/salted, isn't it appropriate that you close the AfD? Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/HHO_gas_(4th_nomination) LaughingVulcan 23:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
- It looks like that won't be necessary. Tom Harrison Talk 23:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for undoing your deletion, by the way. I should have discussed it with you first. But I came home from work, saw that the AfD was still open (or had been re-opened), along with your comment that you weren't going to undelete them, and took it upon myself. I didn't realize the DRV had already started.
Do you now agree that WP:CSD G4 and G11 didn't apply, though? (Specifically, were you aware of the previous DRV that said it could be re-created?) — Omegatron 20:10, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- It's not big deal, please don't worry about it. I will look in when I get a chance. Tom Harrison Talk 08:06, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- I'd still like to know what you think, especially now that they've been deleted again, despite a 19:15 majority for keeping them... — Omegatron 02:00, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
A Request for comment has been opened about my behavior. Your input would be appreciated. — Omegatron 00:57, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
MomoShomo/Ibn Shah/H.E.
Might want to weigh in here. Ibn Shah (talk · contribs) has been confirmed to be identical to MomoShomo (talk · contribs), who you blocked as an H.E. sock. He is, of course, disputing it. - Merzbow 00:45, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- He keeps disrupting the CU page; I've opened a thread at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#More_H.E._socks_to_block. - Merzbow 18:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- 70.238.158.12 is an experienced editor who is revert-warring as an anon. Arrow740 23:32, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- If this happens again, you should file a 3rr report. Tom Harrison Talk 17:11, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
- It was User:Kirbytime (based on a post to a child porn article) edit-warring using dynamic IPs. Arrow740 19:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
- So, it's started up again. Here's the history. Arrow740 20:08, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Protection
Note that we have a new method for protecting deleted pages, that should be more convenient than {{deletedpage}}; see WP:PT for details. >Radiant< 11:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks, that is an improvement. Tom Harrison Talk 17:10, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Trolls, miscreants and losers
Trolls, miscreants and losers...this is the price we pay for having an open editing forum. But we also have some really great editors, admins and photographers, as well as computer experts and people of rational thought. I suppose my love of writing my stubs still exceeds the idiocy I sometimes see here, but that too could change. Losing your contributions would be a very negative thing for this project. But if you find it to be more trouble than it is worth, I certainly understand.--MONGO 18:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah; There are still lots of good people here. I remember when I first started editing, I didn't even know there were adminsistrators for six months or more. Tom Harrison Talk 01:25, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- It's really disappointing about all the trolling, negative contributors, and harassment. It's difficult or impossible to make up for the great editors driven away. As is, the troll-management workload (and other backlogs) is a lot for the current number of admins and constructive users. I'm greatly concerned about folks that have left recently, and we can't afford to lose any more. I've largely been taking a break from 9/11 articles, though still intend to get more featured at some point. Since more people are helping on the 9/11 pages, I don't have to be there all the time. It helps to retreat to parts of Wikipedia that are quiet, like the glacier and national parks articles MONGO works on and other stuff I've been doing. But, if it's overly stressful to stick around, then Wikipedia might not be a good thing. --Aude (talk) 19:04, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
- People are still doing some fine work here, Building of the World Trade Center and Gun violence in the United States not least. Tom Harrison Talk 01:25, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- Tom, this is horrible to see. Was there a last straw involved?Proabivouac 00:37, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- H's departure was the latest example, but that is the fault of the people who harassed him. I do not want to blame capable and hard-working people who are trying their best to deal with what we have somehow let become a chronic and systemic problem. It has come to the point that I would actively discourage any friend from beginning to edit here. I hope things can change, but I am afraid that nothing will be done until a few months after the existence of the project is obviously threatened. Tom Harrison Talk 01:25, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- Horrible indeed. Tom, I'm really sorry to see the changes to your user page, just as I was coming to thank you for your recent support at my RfA. I hope that whatever the problem is can be sorted out. I've been very impressed with what I've seen of you, and I was looking forward to working with you. I'm glad to see that you're not actually leaving, and hope that whatever vandalism reverting, csd work, or other tasks you do here will still mean that you'll be around enough to see things getting better. You'll be a huge loss if you do go. Thanks for the kindness you've always shown me. ElinorD (talk) 00:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you, that's very kind. I am rethinking how I can best contribute to the goals of the project, but I will still be here for now. It could just be that I am burnt out and need a break. I hope your good will and enthusiasm (and that of many others) can get things back on track. Tom Harrison Talk 01:25, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- Horrible indeed. Tom, I'm really sorry to see the changes to your user page, just as I was coming to thank you for your recent support at my RfA. I hope that whatever the problem is can be sorted out. I've been very impressed with what I've seen of you, and I was looking forward to working with you. I'm glad to see that you're not actually leaving, and hope that whatever vandalism reverting, csd work, or other tasks you do here will still mean that you'll be around enough to see things getting better. You'll be a huge loss if you do go. Thanks for the kindness you've always shown me. ElinorD (talk) 00:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. It's always the good editors who leave, and the bad ones who stay. :-( AGF and civility are great ideas in theory, but aren't really working in practice. The dickishness is actually made worse by the through-the-teeth incivility and all the wikilawyering mania. "Thank you for your contributions to the project, buuuuuut... I've reverted all of them and reported you and I'm going to criticize you with a bunch of capitalizedgibberish, etc. etc. etc." I wonder if we should have third-party experts in human relations/mediation/morale come through and try to clean up our interaction policies.
Another thing we all need is to encourage encouragement. When someone makes an especially good edit or deals with a troll fairly, tell them on their user page so they feel appreciated. Each act of sincere praise cancels out at least a few criticisms. — Omegatron 01:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- "encourage encouragement" - good point. Tom Harrison Talk 17:40, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
One of the biggest problems I see on wikipedia is attracting and retaining good editors. Surely some really good contributors try it out and soon disappear, but what we need to do is help newbies get their feet planted. Whenever I see a new editor adding info to articles on my watchlist, I do what I can to try and prod them to stick around. More often than not, what I get is a response similar to "why is this website so hard to edit"...I think newer editors are often turned off by the various software intricacies of this website, including, but not limited to wikilinking, templates and formatting refs properly. We have made the website user friendly to those that have been here a while and have adjusted to these changes gradually...newbie editors try to edit a well referenced article and find the inline cites to be cumbersome and difficult to work with. User:El C and I tried previously to figure out some way to make the inline cites less intrusive, but I am definitely not very good with templates...perhaps, if you feel the urge, this would be something to play around with in your sandbox, just as a possible suggestion. Another area that really needs help is the images, checking for copyright issues and or simply helping clean up those backlogs...this is tedious and sometimes boring work, but it is always well appeciated...though, the occasional troll will still come to your talkpage demanding his image be restored.--MONGO 06:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- The technical end of things is kind of the counterpart to my complaint. The mechanics are easy for an experienced user who knows the ins and outs, opaque to a newbie. Wkikispeak too: AGF, NPA, NOR, BLP, and the dreaded NPOV. There is good work to be done welcoming new people.
- For templates and references, Zotero works very well for me. If I'm on a book's page at Amazon, or the Library of Congress, I can just click an Icon and Zotero sucks up all the bibliographic information from the page. I can export that as a Wikipedia citation template and copy and paste it into the article. So adding them is not so bad, but they are hard to maintain. I can never tell where the article text ends and the footnote begins. Maybe we could blue-highlight the ref tags or all the ref text in the edit window. Tom Harrison Talk 17:38, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for that...zotero looks like a good idea. The thought regarding making inline cites blue may be hard to implement...seems all good ideas around here are though. You and I both agree that inline cites make it harder for everyone to edit, so for newbies, as they have expressed to me, it is even more confusing. Seriously, seems we have created a monster only the experienced can edit and that is probably going to lead to bigger problems down the road. What I had in mind was some way to simply create templates either 1,2,3,4 or a,b,c,.....etc, that link to the cites which are all posted at the end of an article...a lot like the way the old ref/note style used to work...the biggest problem is when we do sentence/paragrapgh movements, this numerical or alphabetical style gets messed up and is the reason ref/note was eliminated. But in the editing window, the ref/note was no bigger than that...taking up no more than a few keystrokes and easily seen amongst the rest of the text. When I first started Shoshone National Forest, I used that style...I'm sure you remember it...but look at the big difference between what we contend with now and what we had then.......all we had to do was , as an example {{ref|shoshone}} in the article space. This was why we used harvard style referencing in Retreat of glaciers since 1850...though these are also very complicated for newbies, it eliminated the huge amount of space needed in the article iteself, as seen when someone is editing it. Doug Bell even created the "harv" style, which superscripted the footnote so it was less obtusive in the visible text, and in an article such as that one, with so many numbers, it was easier to read it without having a footnote confuse someone with a measurement. So lots of things are possible and it is something I might start working on myself even.--MONGO 20:32, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- I think Tom's idea is feasible and wouldn't be terribly difficult to implement. User:Cacycle/wikEd looks like it already has some capabilities. It "can also be installed site-wide and can then also be used by not logged-in users." I haven't tried it myself, but a lot of users apparently have. Might be some other suggestions already submitted to http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/. Or new suggestions can be submitted there and feature requests do get implemented. Site-wide implementation of course would require broad consensus, but I think it's a feasible idea. --Aude (talk) 20:58, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for that...zotero looks like a good idea. The thought regarding making inline cites blue may be hard to implement...seems all good ideas around here are though. You and I both agree that inline cites make it harder for everyone to edit, so for newbies, as they have expressed to me, it is even more confusing. Seriously, seems we have created a monster only the experienced can edit and that is probably going to lead to bigger problems down the road. What I had in mind was some way to simply create templates either 1,2,3,4 or a,b,c,.....etc, that link to the cites which are all posted at the end of an article...a lot like the way the old ref/note style used to work...the biggest problem is when we do sentence/paragrapgh movements, this numerical or alphabetical style gets messed up and is the reason ref/note was eliminated. But in the editing window, the ref/note was no bigger than that...taking up no more than a few keystrokes and easily seen amongst the rest of the text. When I first started Shoshone National Forest, I used that style...I'm sure you remember it...but look at the big difference between what we contend with now and what we had then.......all we had to do was , as an example {{ref|shoshone}} in the article space. This was why we used harvard style referencing in Retreat of glaciers since 1850...though these are also very complicated for newbies, it eliminated the huge amount of space needed in the article iteself, as seen when someone is editing it. Doug Bell even created the "harv" style, which superscripted the footnote so it was less obtusive in the visible text, and in an article such as that one, with so many numbers, it was easier to read it without having a footnote confuse someone with a measurement. So lots of things are possible and it is something I might start working on myself even.--MONGO 20:32, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- WikEd does have syntax highlighting for different things, which I find helpful, but I usually leave it turned off. It slows down page loading quite a bit and has some weird formattings that I don't like. Putting superscripts in superscript in the editing window, for instance.
- I've been informally asking outsider friends about their experiences with Wikipedia, and am thinking of doing some IM interviews with "regular people" I know and posting them in my userspace. (Everyone else should do this, too!) For instance, I proposed a change to our interface after a friend refused to add a note to a talk page. She saw an error while talking to me, and pointed it out to me. I told her I didn't know anything about the article and she should leave a comment on the talk page, but after some convincing she couldn't figure out how. See the suggestion on the pump. This is just one small thing that we could do.
- She also said she would be much more comfortable entering something into an anonymous one-line field that wouldn't be part of a discussion, but would be logged somewhere else for editors to review. Like a "lesser edit button" that just says "Do you see an error or other problem? Let us know!" and they can enter a one-sentence summary which will then be checked by regular editors.
- The referencing system as atrocious. I've been complaining about it since it was first installed. It's great that we actually have a referencing system, but it's ugly and messy and unintuitive in the extreme. Wikipedia used to be a wiki. Now we might as well call it "Computersciencepedia" with all the extra codes and hooks that have been added to the syntax. My mother could never edit this, but she's should be able to, ideally. Wikipedia is supposed to be part of Web 2.0, but why do all the other websites have such much better-designed interfaces?
- I'm glad you like Zotero. :-) I'm the one adding most of the COinS tags to the citation templates and stuff to make them work together. Like if you click "Cite this article" you can do the opposite and import the Wikipedia article into Zotero and so on. — Omegatron 00:57, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
- Nice work on COinS. I was reading about that a few weeks ago in another context and saw what you guys had been doing. Tom Harrison Talk 17:55, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
I do agree about trolls, vandals, POV pushers, and negative contributors making the editing environment difficult -- enough so that I wouldn't encourage people in real life to join and help out. Not at this time. In real life, I do know some of the scholars whose articles are cited in the gun violence article, and cited in other wiki articles. If not for the controversy and problems surrounding the articles, it might be possible for me to ask them (or their graduate students) to review wiki articles and help out. There is a shortage of reviewers at WP:FAC, especially people who can review for substance, versus simply looking at prose. Also, once a featured article is created, it's a lot of work to maintain that standard on some articles. Another reason I haven't done so is the articles are still in rough shape, with basic topics still needing lots of work. We are far from an editing environment which is welcoming for good new editors. Some time in the future, it might become possible to invite folks to help, if in time (1) some form of stable versions gets implemented, where anonymous edits don't go live immediately (decreasing gratification gained by vandalizing) (2) something like what Tom suggests is implemented to make editing more user friendly (3) wikilawyering, civility and POV pushing is better managed. All the chitchat on IRC isn't great either. I've tried going on IRC a few times, but can't figure it out and now lost my IRC password. It's too much trouble for a lot of people, and don't see how it's productive to be on there. --Aude (talk) 21:32, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- I wonder of a lot of our troubles result from immediatism without stable versions. Tom Harrison Talk 18:09, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Someone else has probably already said it, but I expect any simplified markup language will expand until it is as complex as what it was to have replaced. Tom Harrison Talk 18:18, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
- Heh, that is a good point.--MONGO 04:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- Very good point. — Omegatron 07:00, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Rogue Admin
Please see my User talk:68.110.8.21 and User_talk:Akhilleus#WP:POINT.2C_WP:HOAX.2C_WP:PN.2C_WP:BIAS. Wikipedia seriously needs your help Tom. Thanks. 68.110.8.21 03:20, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
{{further}}
Hey, I've renominated the template for deletion. Let's push this template thru to deletion, and get as many of your like minded friends to vote.[2]199.126.28.20 03:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Just a thought
I believe that when it comes to editing wikipedia, if you are not having fun then you are doing it wrong. WAS 4.250 04:47, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- Hard to say, Tom's complaints do not indicate he is doing it wrong...trolls and losers are jeapoardizing the ability of good editors and admins to do it right, especially when some admins enable trolls and losers by demanding we assume good faith of them, even if they are obviously here for purposes other than writing and administrating an encyclopedia.--MONGO 04:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- What I am saying is take the subset of possible behaviours you are calling "doing it right" (meaning roughly "right for wikipedia") and only do the subset of that that is consistant with having fun. In other words, edit wikipedia by only doing that which is both right for wikipedia and right for yourself (as that is what is sustainable). WAS 4.250 07:02, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- Essentially, you're proposing to edit only those parts of Wikipedia that are below the radar of trolls and cede to them everything else. I think this is what Tom has decided to do after all, since there are no effective ways of combatting trolls, at least some of them. Beit Or 14:21, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- What I am saying is take the subset of possible behaviours you are calling "doing it right" (meaning roughly "right for wikipedia") and only do the subset of that that is consistant with having fun. In other words, edit wikipedia by only doing that which is both right for wikipedia and right for yourself (as that is what is sustainable). WAS 4.250 07:02, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- I have come to think in many cases it is better to let an article devolve into an obviously-unreliable mess, than to spend hours fighting out a compromise that leaves it only less bad, but with my having seemingly endorsed the result by participating. If a bunch of loons write the page without interference, at least the page is obviously the work of loons, and I have not wasted more time. Of course if we had flagged revisions that logic would not apply. I think I understand the spirit in which WAS meant his remark, and I appreciate the advice. Tom Harrison Talk 17:31, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Flagged revisions
Apparently there is progress in development of a Flagged Revisions feature, as an extension (m:Extension:FlaggedRevs). Proposal and discussion are going on about using flagged revisions in enwiki - Wikipedia:Flagged revisions. --Aude (talk) 15:28, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
- It looks encouraging. Maybe we could put a dozen pages on this as a trial and see how it goes. Tom Harrison Talk 15:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
- Great! Now we can edit-war over which version is the "quality" one.
- The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Raymond Arritt 19:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Happy Tom's Day!
Tom harrison has been identified as an Awesome Wikipedian, Love, A record of your Day will always be kept here. |
I concur!--MONGO 22:39, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
And so do I! ElinorD (talk) 22:56, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Naturally.Proabivouac 22:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes :) --Aminz 02:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you all. I appreciate your good wishes, and Phaedriel's generosity. Tom Harrison Talk 02:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Nice additions!
I just noticed your additions to the Kaymakli article! Thank you so much Tom!, makes me feel worse for being so aggressive earlier.
Armenian Barnstar of National Merit | ||
I, Hetoum hereby award you the Armenian Barnstar of National Merit for your patience and contribution to the Amenaprkich Monastery article. Hetoum I 20:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC) | ||
this WikiAward was given to {{subst:PAGENAME}} by ~~~ on ~~~~~ |
- Hetoum, thank you very much! Tom Harrison Talk 20:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
- ) It did sound like a good book, and I was recommended by an Armenian professor to it. I will try to get the book myself in the near future. D.O. publications can be expensive, but certainly worth every penny. Their works are done by quite competent scholars. I was recently reading some articles from the D.O. journal on the Armenian marchlands and it was quite impressive.Hetoum I 18:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
blockvandal
One reform (among several) that is desperately needed is to give any user in good standing the ability to block blatant abusive sockpuppets and vandals with less than a certain number of edits. This would not require RfA, but could be granted by any administrator, and withdrawn by any administrator in cases of abuse (just like blocks.) This would save us the incredibly inefficient procedure of non-administrators having to file reports in various places and await administrator attention when most of those administrators will know less about the situation "on the ground" than the reporting editors.Proabivouac 06:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
- It would be useful to give some admin tools by default to any editor in 'good standing'. We might tie it in with people marking sighted versions. I think it has been discussed in the past, but I haven't found where. There is kind of a myth about 'uninvolved admins' taking the days necessary to inform themselves of the background, and then act. This isn't practical and rarely happens, even in arbitration I suspect. Tom Harrison Talk 12:15, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Muslims persecution of Christians
Why did the article get changed to Islam and Anti-Christian sentiment? LoveMonkey 12:55, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
- It looks like you and Sefringle are discussing it on the talk page. It's not a topic I have followed very closely, but I will watch it for a while. Tom Harrison Talk 14:00, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi Tom,
I would be very thankful if you could help with Aisha article. Here is the dispute:
The quote we have:
As far as Ayesha's age at the time of her marriage to the Prophet is concerned, it is a matter of ongoing controversy among Muslims. Conservatives (and Western Orientalists) put her age as low as nine years, based on Ahadith that claim that she was playing with dolls when she got married. This could well be true since the concept of childhood is a relatively recent one, and the age of consent for women in most cultures in those days was quite low. (Even in the United States, the age of consent for women was between seven and ten as late as 1889 and was raised to eighteen only as the result of feminist campaigns.) As such, there was nothing aberrant in the practice of marrying young girls fourteen centuries ago (though it is today, given that we now recognize children as children). On the other hand, however, Muslims who calculate Ayesha's age based on details of her sister Asma's age, about whom more is known, as well as on details of the Hijra (the Prophet’s migration from Mecca to Medina), maintain that she was over thirteen and perhaps between seventeen and nineteen when she got married. Such views cohere with those Ahadith that claim that at her marriage Ayesha had "good knowledge of Ancient Arabic poetry and genealogy" and "pronounced the fundamental rules of Arabic-Islamic ethics" (Walther 1981, 75). However, most of what we know about Ayesha, including the details of her marriage, are reconstructions that remain susceptible to interpretive controversy and manipulation in view of the very different meaning of her life for Sunni and Shii Muslims (After the Prophet's death, Ayesha led an unsuccessful revolt against Ali, the Prophet's cousin and son-in-law, the fourth caliph of Islam whom the Shii follow as Imam.) Not only are Muslims thus particularly invested in specific reconstructions of her life, but the most definite work on it was begun a century and a half after her death. The work drew for its details on "oral reports transmitted over three to four generations"(Spellberg 1994, 2); thus, "even the earliest Arabic written sources on Aisha's life already capture that life as a legacy, an interpretation." As D. A. Spellberg puts it (191), in studying Ayesha, one therefore is studying "male intellectual history, not a woman's history, but reflections about the place of a woman, and by extension, all women, in exclusively male assertions about Muslim society." To what extent estimates of Ayesha's age or the details of her marriage also embody displaced male desires must then permanently remain open to question."
Source: "Believing Women" in Islam: Unreading Patriarchal Interpretations of the Qur'an (University of Texas Press, 2002). page 126" Author of the book: Asma Barlas.
Dispute: User:Arrow740 and User:Proabivouac oppose adding the above information from the book. They want to write: "Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad." I want to write: Most Muslims (and Western scholars of Islam) hold that Aisha have been six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad...... A minority of Muslims calculate the age of Aisha to have been over 13 and 14, perhaps between 17 and 19."
Some arguments for why the book is a reliable source:
1. The book was published by University of Texas press which practices the peer-reviewing process.
2. Reviews of the book (or other academic sources that cite this book, which means we too can cite it):
- John Esposito reviewed the book saying: "This is an original and, at times, groundbreaking piece of scholarship."
- Kirsten V. Walles, Department of History, University of Texas at Austin reviewed the book saying: "The book Believing is a fascinating analysis of the woman’s position in Muslim society.However the basic premise of Asma Barlas’s theories could be applied and used by scholars of many disciplines including religion, gender, and history..."
- David Robinson in Muslim Societies in African History (Cambridge University Press) says: "For the role of women, start with Asma Barlas' Believing Women in Islam:..."
- Winkelmann, Carol Lea, Christine Shearer-Cremean (Survivor Rhetoric, University of Toronto Press) cite this work (p.236).
- Josef W. Meri (in Medieval Islamic Civilization: An Encyclopedia, Routledge press) p.280 refers to this book.
- And ...
3. Please see Asma Barlas article. She has for example edited a chapter in "Cambridge Companion to the Qur’an " among others. Barlas was named to the prestigious Spinoza Chair at the University of Amsterdam in the Netherlands due to "her prominent contributions to discussions about women and Islam".
Thanks --Aminz 08:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
- Even Watt says she was nine when they had sex. This femininist author is a tertiary source for this hadith analysis, though she might be good for other things. The real issue here is that Aminz is claiming that the sources say that Aisha had reached puberty (Pro removed it here), when they don't. This is an egregious misprepresentation of sources and deserves some censure. Arrow740 08:40, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
- The above source says the Western Orientalist (the category to which Watt and others belong) believe in Aisha marrying at nine. Barlas only reports that there is a controversy. Being a feminist might affect her judgments from the facts but not in reporting them. Even if Barlas is a feminist, she has been commended for "her prominent contributions to discussions about women and Islam"- hardly can anyone have prominent contributions to the issue of Islam and women but makes obvious mistakes about one of the most important women in Islam, i.e. Aisha
- Of course Aisha stayed with her father until she reached puberty. Proab is only throwing accusation against me. Spellberg states that "all these references to the Aisha's age reinforce Aisha's pre-menarcheal status, and, implicitly her virginity." Watt also says: "We must remember, of course, that girls matured much earlier in seventh-century Arabia." Others also say this. --Aminz 08:49, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
- You just hoisted yourself by your own petard. I think this deserves a block. Arrow740 08:51, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
- Aminz, so Spellberg states that "all these references to the Aisha's age reinforce Aisha's pre-menarcheal status," and you take home from this, "Aisha hit puberty?" As opposed to, you got this bloody unlikely notion from the fever swamps of internet dawah, and are falsely attributing it to what here pass for (a political scientist specializing in race/gender/you know the drill) reliable sources?Proabivouac 08:57, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
- There has never ever been the custom in any society to consummate marriages before adulthood. Colin Turner (Islam: The Basics, Routledge Press) says: "However, such marriages were almost certainly not consummated until both parties had entered adulthood, which Arabs in the seventh century tended to reach at an earlier age that Westerners today."
- --Aminz 09:02, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
- That makes the fact that Muhammad didn't wait all the more disgusting. The point remains that you blatantly misrepresented sources. Arrow740 09:06, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
- Asma Barlas's area of speciality includes "Islam and Qur'anic Hermeneutics, and Women and Gender". She has written about Islam in famous presses [3]. --Aminz 09:04, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
- She is not an acceptable tertiary source for this material. Arrow740 09:06, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
- Barlas(2002) appears as note 3, and should be removed or listed in the references by title.
- Barlas' can be presented as a minority opinion unless it is only her view and no other authorities have accepted it. If it is just her, it would be undue weight to give it that prominence. I have no idea which is the case. It looks like a complex subject with a lot of history, and I don't have the time or expertise to inform myself of all I would need to know to have an opinion.
- It's not appropriate for us as editors to characterize Muhammad's behavior as disgusting. That will just antagonize people and make editing more difficult. Reliable sources have said whatever they said about Aisha's age at marriage. Our encyclopedia article should not use this as a way to indict Islam today, or to promote Muhammad as a moral example, or to somehow support one side in a political/religious dispute.
Tom Harrison Talk 14:17, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for your reply.
- I would like to make a clarification: The dispute is not over Barlas's personal "view"s but rather over the truthness of the primary "report" she is transmitting. She is basically saying that there are a minority of Muslims who "based on details of her sister Asma's age, about whom more is known, as well as on details of the Hijra (the Prophet’s migration from Mecca to Medina)..Such views cohere with those Ahadith that claim that at her marriage Ayesha had "good knowledge of Ancient Arabic poetry and genealogy" and "pronounced the fundamental rules of Arabic-Islamic ethics"".
- Please note that the question is not over interpretation of anything, but rather over truthness of the very report. --Aminz 01:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Iraq Resolution
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content which gains a consensus among editors. Tom Harrison Talk 15:30, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Im guessing that you didnt look at the talk page since we already reached a consensus...everyone agrees with me...and think the other editor is wrong. Of course since he has also edited the page 3 times in 1 day....you sent him a email to also....right? We are in open Med...of course that didnt stop the wrong editor from going ahead and changing the page to his POV once again. How about doing something about that? GATXER 01:13, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
- If everyone agrees with you, then one of those people will restore the version you prefer. Tom Harrison Talk 13:35, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
The other editor requested a mediator.....who now has agreed with us...however the other editor still wont stop making he POV edits. Hes in like 5 pages with a mediator all Bush pages all with him and his POV. Also Im not the only one delteing his POV edits. We can do nothing else since he wont listen to reason. GATXER 23:09, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
- It is very nice for you to make friends. However, you should start by not misrepresenting the facts.
- Tom warned you because you violated WP:3RR
- The fact I ask for mediation alot may indicate I am trying to avoid exactly the sillyness we are now having. For details of what I want to prevent see my page on Merecat and Zerofault.
- Further, you might want to start talking instead of blindly reverting. The fact you have not even noticed you deleted sources, I carefully inserted to address your claims of the comments being incorrect, proves you have no idea of what you are doing. Please try and find middle ground as this editor has already suggested to you.
- Respectfully Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 09:59, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
You get a lot of Mediators because you force you POV on everyone. It isnt working with me. I will take the mediator advice and keep moving the Criticism to the Criticism section.
Consensus on this has been reached and NO ONE agrees with you. GATXER 10:36, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- Coming from an editor that only contributes by reverting others it sounds a bit hollow. Since this is somebody else's page I won't respond to this edit warrioir again here. Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 10:53, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Its should be pointed out that I have contributed to another page and meet up with a editor not unlike Nescio who while they admitted my edit was 100% true they didn't want it....I then backed down and left Winki. That is something I wont do again.
This is just another thing Nescio has said about me that was a lie GATXER 02:11, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
underground cities article has been vandalised
underground cities And no brain surgery was not first performed in Turkey. LoveMonkey 15:59, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see what you mean. Can you give me a diff? Tom Harrison Talk 16:07, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
BP Information
I liked what you wrote regarding BP, however it does not seem to connect. The section is about Operation Ajax obviously, and while BP is mentioned, the subject is not BP. I am not sure if the company is of interest to you, perhaps you can write something more closely related to the time period of the subject regarding BP or the company it was formerly known as that would serve as an intro, or outro. However the information you added takes place some 20 years later and seems disjointed. Thank you. --SixOfDiamonds 17:06, 3 July 2007 (UTC)