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== Request to de-admin yourself == |
== Request to de-admin yourself == |
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Steve, based on the comments made by many members of the community on [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Stevertigo]], I am asking that you voluntarily de-admin yourself (a request can be made to [[User talk:Angela|Angela]]). There seems to be consensus that trust has been lost and I don't see the need to drag this through arbitration. There's no reason you couldn't regain adminship again through RfA. Please consider this. [[User:Carbonite|Carbonite]] | [[User talk:Carbonite|Talk]] 12:29, 8 August 2005 (UTC) |
Steve, based on the comments made by many members of the community on [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Stevertigo]], I am asking that you voluntarily de-admin yourself (a request can be made to [[User talk:Angela|Angela]]). There seems to be consensus that trust has been lost and I don't see the need to drag this through arbitration. There's no reason you couldn't regain adminship again through RfA. Please consider this. [[User:Carbonite|Carbonite]] | [[User talk:Carbonite|Talk]] 12:29, 8 August 2005 (UTC) |
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:You could always ask for a temporary "no prejudice" de-op. Just say you want to relinquish your sysop rights for (1) a specific period of time or (2) pending outcome of the discussion. If you choose #1, any bureaucrat (such as me) can legitimately re-op you when the self-imposed period ends. I checked the ''rulez'' and this ''is'' permitted. |
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:Either that, or just agree not to use any of the disputed powers in any of the disputed areas. This might be just as good (and would, if you were a '''bit''' more genial), but it's clearer and would make a better impression if you went to Angela or Anthere. [[User:Ed Poor|Uncle Ed]] 14:36, August 8, 2005 (UTC) |
Revision as of 14:36, 8 August 2005
- Note: I may choose to reply here instead of your talk-SV
[[Talk:User:Stevertigo Archive 1|1]] [[Talk:User:Stevertigo Archive 2|2]] [[Talk:User:Stevertigo Archive 3|3]] [[Talk:User:Stevertigo Archive 4|4]] [[Talk:User:Stevertigo Archive 5|5]] [[Talk:User:Stevertigo Archive 6|6]] [[Talk:User:Stevertigo Archive 7|7]] [[Talk:User:Stevertigo Archive 8|8]] [[Talk:User:Stevertigo Archive 9|9]] [[Talk:User:Stevertigo Archive 10|10]] 11
DPT moderation
I see that you offered mediation over Democratic peace theory. I am certainly interested. Ultramarine has also expressed willingness to accept mediation on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Ultramarine. How do you propose to mediate? Septentrionalis 21:10, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
- Doesn't this count? WP:RFM#Democratic_Peace_Theory How many requests are necessary? Septentrionalis 22:16, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
- Thank you for taking it lightly. I'm afraid that Ultramarine is a good proportion of my Wikistress. Septentrionalis 01:03, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I agree that this is a good topic for an article. I'm surprised we don't have one already! Anyway, let me know how/when I can help. Best, Meelar (talk) 23:53, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
GNAA
Ya, I would have blocked, but only for being disruptive. The whole we don't know if there are any gay or black people in the GNAA was added because I thought it might be useful... probably not. I guess I saw faulty logic with Chocolateboy's response so I got my back up. I'm not particularly sensitive to these issues, to be honest. As for it being a huge time waster: yep, sure is! - Ta bu shi da yu 02:58, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
- P.S. Manning was going to take me to RFAr? Eh? - Ta bu shi da yu 02:59, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Charles Spurgeon
Thanks for adding the second image! I only wish there was some kind of word wrap instead of gaps in the text. Jim Ellis 22:06, July 28, 2005 (UTC)
Test 4
I'd like your views on Template:test4, the final warning message for someone prior to vandalism. I had some feedback in emails from people I blocked to wanted to know why I had not warned them in advance. I pointed out that I had. It turned out that people often missed the final warning, or did not recognise it in a page of messages. Some people I suspect with poor English may not grasp the fact that it is a final warning. To make it more visual, and also to enable those with poor English to grasp its meaning I added a visual component. One user is unhappy however, preferring just the text version. What is your opinion. The version I created is: [moved down]
(If there is no hand, it may mean that someone has taken it out of the template. In which case the image is the one below. It appeared on the left hand (lol) side of the message. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 01:53, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you vandalize Wikipedia.
Mediation update
I'm having my holidays and am therefore subject to limited access. You can add Houston Chronicle to the template as a slow mediation. I'll give it all a look when I have more time. - Mgm|(talk) 11:25, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
Morning-after pill
(A) I think you have edited the english of the opening paragraph well - much better. I wondered though if the section on the different types (ie combined or progesterone only) and the the 'Use as a birth control method' sections should come ahead of the 'Issues' section to :(1) explain what is being talked about and how they are used before examining, in your execllent section, the issues that this all raises (2) whether the different types is relevant to the 'issues' - i.e. is there thought to be any differences in the mode of action of combined vs protesterone post-coital pills?
(B) Finally there is a little duplication at the bottom of the article with the short section of 'Controversy in relation to abortion'.
David Ruben 19:18, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
The new form is pure progesterone only, ie lacks any oestrogenic effect. This increased the tolerablity (less nausea) and reduces risks (eg on DVT). Given that normal combined oral contracptive pills cocp possibly work slightly different from Progesterone only pill, the question arises whether the issues of ECP as contraception/abortifants apply differently to the 2 methods or not. I genuinely do not know whether there are any differences in mode of action or not.
The whole of contraception on Wikipedia has coverage on the fertilisation/contraception/implantation/abortion points, and modes of action gets mixed with terminology of contraception/abortin (personally I believe anti-implantation is not abortifant, but I happily accept the NPOV that these articles have).
David Ruben 19:46, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
I had a go at reorganising the paragraph structure of the article (comment had been made on duplication in the intro and later on). The 'issues' & 'specific issues' seemed mostly against & for EHC respectively re abortion controversy. As they were marked up at a lower level ('===') than the 'Controversy' section ('=='), they seemed to make good sub-sections which I renamed.
Your hidden pieces of information risked being lost in the re-ordering and would only be viewable to those actually editing the article. I moved them to the discussion where more people can see and consider. I feel these are valid issues/concerns although I think there are counter-arguments to some of them, which I hope you will feel are constructive, I hope you do not mind. Some of these points are applicable to non-prescription items and to people going to more that one healthcare professional to get duplicate treatment - I wonder if wikipedia already has such discussion articles or if they need to be written and referred-to by articles such as this ?
Overall I think your additional information gave a depth and breadth to this article David Ruben 17:52, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
In UK levonelle is currently licensed for use within 72hours after coitus. Effectiveness decreases the longer te interval. A good BMJ article (2003) reviews this limit following WHO tests for upto 120hr (5days) which found little drop off in effectiveness - thank you for prompting me to research on this. Whilst medicine regulation clearly does not change quickly, as a UK doctor I am restricted by this limit (I always assumed use after 3days might risk accusatiuon of attempting for a medical abortion and so not acting within the UK Abortion Act and also that reducing effectiveness means that IUD insertion perferable upto 5days) Wikipedia article should probably state the 3day licenced limit (as that is what patient's can expect from their doctor), but reasonable to make note of the longer intervals - I'll update the artice accordingly. 62.6.139.11 11:59, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the continued correspondence:
- UK medically & UK legally, abortion is considered the ending of an implanted egg/fetus, anything that prevents fertilisation/implantaion counts as contraception (not withstanding 'pro-life' view point). Abortion Act requires 2 doctors to sign a legal form BEFORE an abortion can be performed. Hence ECPs which do not dislodge an implanted egg, and merely prevent fertilisation &/or implantation counts as contraception (and so not under the remit of the Abortion Act).
- I strongly would oppose any direct suggestion that ECPs are abortifants as a 'biased' POV. I appreciate definitions are all important for 'pro-life' re prevention of implantation, and for NPOV the article should therefore mention the debate, as currently the case.
- The only link should be at the start where currently there is a missing link to 'early abortion' (which I have corrected) and again in the latter controversy section - again very reasonable to add (and I will so do).
- 'late contraception' is not a term I have heard used in the UK at all.
- 'Emergency' sounds better as it convays a sense of something going wrong (condom split or forgotton pill yes, or unfortunately nothing used until later thought about). 'Late' suggests just a bit slow to getting round to doing something, although perhaps more literally correct.
- As you correctly edited: 'morning after' is a misnomer and the current term being pushed is 'EC' or 'ECP'.
- Also used is 'PCP' - 'Post Coital Pill' which is the most accurate (but are people squeemish about the word 'Coital' ?).
- The only other term used briefly in the UK was 'Progesterone Only Emergency Contraception' (POEC), but that seems to have been dropped when the alternative combined Yuzpe tablet was withdrawn from market.
- I agree would be better to move to the current disambiguation/soft-direct Emergency Contraception page. Do we need seek support for this move, or shall we just go ahead ?
- re ?move to 'EC', 'ECP' or 'EHC' - there already are both 'EC' and 'ECP' disambiguation pages with lots of entries and 'EHC' for Emergency Hormonal Contraception currently links to Eastern Harbour Tunnel.
- re Anon edit - sorry, yes only spotted this as saved edit, then could not see anyway to notifiy edit was mine. Wikipedia seems to forget my login if I'm too slow about an edit (are the Wikipedia cookies time limited ??), I normally spot this and log back on, but forgot to check that time
David Ruben 19:46, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Mediation: Democratic Peace Theory
Yes, I can have a go at Democratic peace theory mediation starting on Monday. — Catherine\talk 22:29, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Media Project
Steve, using your excellent model, I think I've started to understand working with templates and the template namespace. To help me understand the Journalism Project and Wikiprojects in general, I opened up Wikipedia:WikiProject Media which seems to also be a needed project related to Journalism. Maurreen's signed up but more as an observer/consultant. I'd like your input as well there, if time permits. I'll change the colors of the template used for Wikipedia:WikiProject Media in time, for now the one in use is just for interal project development. Hope all's well with you. Cheers, Calicocat 23:19, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for redesign
Hey, I meant to say thanks for the design of test4. It looks great. I actually typed up a message on your page, then left it unsaved on my desktop and later closed the browser before saving it. I loved the Genuine IRA, BTW. Though I think it might be more Light IRA or Diet IRA — smaller than before, that may emerge.
Slán FearÉIREANN\(caint) 18:14, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Important VFD
Please see the VFD for commons:List of victims of the 1913 Great Lakes storm. This is of vital importance. This list and others like it are being pushed off of the entire Wikimedia project. It started at Wikipedia, where they were VFDd in favor of moving to Wikisource/Commons. Now they are being VFDd off Wikisource (they don't really belong there, since they are not original source texts), with people there saying they should be on WP/Commons, and it is also being VFDd on Commons, where people don't realize that Commons accepts texts (says so right on the Main Page). This will set a precedent for any user-created lists. -- BRIAN0918 22:38, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Categories
Someone has proposed Category:Journalism and a few related categories for deletion or merging. Maurreen (talk) 01:25, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
- Well, at least that's one thing we agree on.
- By the way, you forgot to sign your note about pregnancy photos. No biggie. But when I thought it was from a stranger, it seemed pretty weird.
- Here's what I found on Google:
- http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=pregnancy+site%3Agov
- http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=pregnant+site%3Agov
Commonwealth Realm
Could you please take a look again at Talk:Commonwealth Realm? We're close to an agreeement, the sticking point is the use of the term "British Crown" which I argue is both 1) a correct term and b) needed at least initially for NPOV purposes. Homey 15:26, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Miscarriage
Two people in a fast sequence of edits left me struggling to edit & insert my own contributions - I waited for the two of you to pause :-) Internally inconsistancy in the miscarriage article on some of statistics (eg 'most threatened do well', yet under relevant sub-section the correct value of 50% proceeding to loss). I've edited some of the statistics and provided UK BMJ & RCOG references. I also moved the types around for more logical progression (ie 'threatened' may lead to 'complete', 'incomplete' may lead to 'septic' and then of course may be 'missed').
In all quite a lot of changes, so any improvement to my English always appreciated :-) -David Ruben 22:49, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
3RR
I reported you for violating WP:3RR on Vietnam War. CJK 5 August 2005
Editing protected page
Steverigo, I am very disapointed in your actions at Vietnam War in terms of repeated reverts and particularly continuing to revert after the page was protected - in clear violation of the spirit of the Wikipedia:Protection policy. I am therefore blocking you for 48 hours, see also WP:AN. I am not going to be online tonight and only have intermitent access to my email at the moment so please make any comments on this page, I have asked others to look here also. Thryduulf 17:22, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
- Thryduulf, while I appreciate your candor and your concern for th rules by which Wikipedia keeps order, I cannot agree that any rule is absolute. Nor can I reasonably aggree (with respect to protection) that the revert of an anon with 10 edits be allowed to stand during the state of protection. Nor, do I like the one-sided view that the one who reports at WP:AN/3RR is inherently innocent, while the one he reports is not. Clearly it would be impossible for you to read all of the discussion, but the real issue is CJK's and TJive's concerted destruction of my changes, calling them POV —not my restoration of them. Clearly 3RR policy is flawed, as others have noted. I have sent a note to wikien as well. -St|eve 17:36, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
- I have not investigated the 3RR and so cannot comment on the report given. If you wanted a different version protect to the one that had been you should have requested another admin do it as you are clearly involved with the article. I agree that not all rules are absolute (some can be), but imho I was acting clearly within the spirit of this rule. I do not subscribe to the mailing list, so I wont be following matters there, I do hope that they back me up on this one though. Thryduulf 17:43, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
- "You should have..." Let's see: WP:RFP#Request to protect: Vietnam War might have something on the subject. I did that last night, and nobody got to it until now. Perhaps WP:PP policy is flawed as well, and I should have just protected it myself before things got out of hand. I dont think you did anything wrong by blocking me, though applying a compound sentence to one and none to the other, without (by your admission) any intelligent review, appears to be rather outside of the spirit which the rule was created. In any case Ive unblocked myself to file for WP:RFAR. -St|eve 17:49, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
- PS: I see that CJK commented on WP:AR/3RR, claiming that I didnt respond to any of his comments "yet." Anyone who takes two minutes to look at the history of Talk:Vietnam War (and its parent article) wont be confused about how many of CJKs comments I responded to at that time, and what the substance (or lack thereof) of his comments were. -St|eve 17:53, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
- I have not investigated the 3RR and so cannot comment on the report given. If you wanted a different version protect to the one that had been you should have requested another admin do it as you are clearly involved with the article. I agree that not all rules are absolute (some can be), but imho I was acting clearly within the spirit of this rule. I do not subscribe to the mailing list, so I wont be following matters there, I do hope that they back me up on this one though. Thryduulf 17:43, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Steve, this may be a day late and a dollar short but:
- I didn't look at the substance of the issue, because my larger concern was admins 'blocking' each other.
- Whenever I've wanted to stop an edit war such as this, I have (1) protected the page and (2) gone back to a version way before the edit war - picking it out of the history.
- You really should try out my proposed policy of Wikipedia:Text move - which I contend is nothing new but only a reformulation of original policy.
- You are starting to piss me off, because I'm trying to help you (and the other admins AND the communit) but you keep ignoring me and making the situation worse.
- Don't think that what I did with vfd is a model for you to emulate. There are several differences, however subtle, that differentiate the cases significantly.
- PLEASE talk to me before any reversions, blocks or un-blocks. Uncle Ed 12:27, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
Three revert rule
You have been blocked for 24 hours under the three revert rule. If you wish to appeal please contact another administrator or the mailing list.Geni 17:06, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
- Since you unblocked yourself, I have reblocked you for 24 hours. Do NOT, under any circumstances, unblock yourself after being blocked by another admin. If you disagree with the block, email an admin, use your talk page, or use the mailing list of IRC. When admins unblock themselves it sends a very bad message to the community. Thank you for listening. Carbonite | Talk 00:38, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- And you unblocked yourself again. What the devil do you think you're playing at? Adminship is a public trust, granted by the community and not treated lightly. I have re-blocked for 24 hours. Please do not unblock yourself again. Mackensen (talk) 00:48, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- The first block was one-sided, was done by one unfamiliar with the specifics of the case, and favored the complaintant, even though the complaintant himself violated 3RR.
- The second block by Carbonite was well meaning but was likewise unfamiliar with the issue of the block. I unblocked for the purpose of filing a case at WP:RFAR against the accuser, whose only standing ATP was that he complained about 3RR before I did. (I wouldnt have anyway).
- The third block, by Mackensen was likewise done by one unfamiliar with the issue, and with an apparent hard-on for playing the enforcer.
- Finally, the mailing list doesnt work at all, so Ive no other recourse to communicate on talk pages which discuss or recriminate me, other than to unblock myself. -St|eve 00:55, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Due to your abuse of admin powers, I have posted an RfC. Please submit your comments there after you are unblocked. Carbonite | Talk 01:03, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- How long is the block for, and are you aware of the fact that the mailing list isnt working? -St|eve 01:09, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
WTF
Steve, what on earth are you doing? Just talk to me - please. Uncle Ed 01:07, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
3rr? How did it come to this? A wheel war going on, during my watch? Why didn't you come to me about this? And anyway how did it start? Let's sort this out, before it turns into another RFC, RFArb rhubard brouhaha. Uncle Ed 01:12, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Its not complicated. I made some edits to Vietnam War, got reverted by User:CJK, and answer all his points on the talk. He still argued with me, inserting weasel terms into the article. User:TJive and User:Trey Stone (politically related, though I dont want to insult TJive by association) joined the discussion. Ive got a three way pileup on a mildly controversial topic, and request the page be protected. CJK files against me for 3RR. Someone (User:Thryddulf) finally gets to protecting the page the next day. Its on an older revert version, made by an anon with only 10 edits. So I restore the version previous, while the page was protected. I get blocked for "3RR" by Geni, and unblock myself to save a talk comment in progress and file at WP:RFAR. CJK gets nothing. Today, the like-to-block-people-but-dont-know-shit-about-the-context-or- related-process-crew gets involved. See above: Carbonite and Mackensen etc. etc. St|eve 01:19, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- This is stupid, but if you'll just let yourself stay blocked until it's sorted out it will be better: both for you and for Wikipedia. Please let me handle this. Trust me on this one, my fellow Mediator? Uncle Ed 01:23, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
- It is stupid, and now I see what you meant about problems with 3RR. You know Ive long argued for more proactive PP policy --protect when things get hot, even if youre involved. Force discussion. Undoing an anon's revert should be nothing, and that the other parties both having +3 reverts on the article at least shows a problem with the equity by which 3RR is applied. Thanks, Ed. TTYL. -St|eve 01:28, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Let me aks you this
Steve, let me ask you something. For the sake of argument, let me just assume you were right. Here's the question. Was it worth it? The Uninvited Co., Inc. 01:29, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- Was? Save the "was" for when its all done. It's not done. -St|eve 01:32, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- PS: And do something to fix the mailing list.
Ok. Is it worth it then? I mean, I see your point and everything, but if you'd left a note on your talk page, somebody would have unblocked you in a matter of minutes. Oh, and I don't have any sort of access to the mailing list that would allow me to fix it. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 01:36, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- I dont know anything about being unblocked. Im not accustomed to either blocking or being blocked, and the people who restored the block on me did so without giving me any impression that it was anything but an absolute (yet arbitrarily imposed) thing. "Dont struggle in the net," is nice, but it would help if the net is not abused. -St|eve 02:17, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- Steve, please learn from my mistake. Just let it all wash over you, like an ocean wave at the beach. Hold your breath till Monday (or when the block wears off) and lay low. (Like I should have done with Bruning blocked me.) I was an idiot. Don't crown my stupidity by acting like a moron. Let it go.
- UninvitedCompany has convinced me of a serious error in the way Admins (particularly me) have been using their sysop rights. I wish you could come on IRC to discuss this. We have to think of the project right now. The way you recover from this incident is more important than the precipitating incident itself. Think about the project, what we're trying to accomplish - together - as a community.
- Bear with it, and we'll all come out of it a stronger team. Okay? Uncle Ed 02:02, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
On behalf of everyone, I want to apologize for the failure to treat both sides equally as required by policy, and I have now blocked CJK for 24 hours for his 3RR violation. Even so, I cannot understand what gave you the idea that it would be appropriate or acceptable in the slightest for you to unblock yourself repeatedly. --Michael Snow 03:21, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- If a claimed disciplinary action is not applied with due process, and enforced by the hasty actions of sysops embued with no more authoritative power than I, and demonstrably unclear on the basis for the disciplinary action, then such action must be considered as outside of due process, until its more appropriately applied. -St|eve 17:12, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
I haven't gone through to see what the presumably political dispute is, however I felt I had to say something after seeing your name up for disciplinary action. You *know* you're a good editor and admin. I haven't looked into the background of the people complaining but I presume they have similar politics. There is certainly a culture amongst some in favour of banning because they can (ooh big boy!). Personally I'd wish we'd filter such creatures out before they get to be admins but I guess we have to deal with these things. I notice that some of the idiots have even banned an entire country's schools. However - never unban yourself - there will always be others around. I know from personal experience that fighting POV is very hard. I felt I got into many US vs the world disputes and the stress I got from this led me to take a 11 month break. I'm now concentrating on domestic articles. Maybe you need a break? Secretlondon 14:32, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- Fair enough, Secret. Thank you much. Break? Maybe, but only because arguing with three people at once is tiring —only one of them demonstrably reasonable and literate enough to consider, and even they feel compelled to use the usual epithets, when their case is lost. Silly? Certainly --when the issue is a choice of wording. But in that case, its worth a bit of effort to educate people about the nature of their own biases, and how such bias does discredit to the project. -St|eve 17:12, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
New block?
Mackensen has apparently added blocked me twice - His block made yesterday expired today at 1400 UTC - He used the same comment as well, perhaps to hide his tracks. Can someone get him to explain this? -St|eve 17:31, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- Are you calculating correctly? From what I can tell, I believe the original block (that is, Mackensen's second block after you removed the first) is supposed to expire at 00:52 UTC on 8 August. The block log does not show any newer blocks. --Michael Snow 17:47, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
No, here are the relevant blocks by Mackensen (previous was Carbonite, before Thryduulf, then Geni). The first Mackensen block I unblocked. The second I did not, but nevertheless appears to be reinstating when I try to edit a page. The second (unreverted) block expired 16:52, 7 August 2005 UTC. It looks like I forgot my prefs automatically converted the time to my local, and the autoblock added time when I tried to edit a page this am. -St|eve 18:33, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- 09:26, 7 August 2005, Mackensen blocked #30165 (expires 09:26, 8 August 2005) (unblock) (Autoblocked because your IP address has been recently used by "Stevertigo". The reason given for Stevertigo's block is: "You are not above the law".)
- 18:08, 6 August 2005, Mackensen blocked #30067 (expires 18:08, 7 August 2005) (unblock) (Autoblocked because your IP address has been recently used by "Stevertigo". The reason given for Stevertigo's block is: "You are not above the law".)
- 16:52, 6 August 2005, Mackensen blocked Stevertigo (expires 16:52, 7 August 2005) (contribs) (unblock) (You are not above the law)
- 16:46, 6 August 2005 Mackensen blocked "User:Stevertigo" with an expiry time of 24 hours (Re-instating block, and I WILL enforce this thing)
- I think your time zone prefs might be causing you some confusion. As Michael Snow mentioned above, Mackensen's second block expires at 00:52 UTC on 8 August. It was a 24 hour block placed at 00:52 UTC 7 August 2005. Carbonite | Talk 18:41, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- As you probably realize by now, yes, Mackensen did block you twice: the first time with comment "Re-instating block, and I WILL enforce this thing" at 00:46 (Aug 7), and then again at 00:52 after you unblocked yourself ("You are not above the law")—see the block log. The other blocks are from the autoblocker catching you when you tried to edit while being blocked; it will use the name of the administrator that blocked you, and will block the IP address for 24 hours (I think). [Incidentally, I recommend against changing time zone preferences. I used my local time briefly but it was too difficult to keep coordinated with other Wikipedia events.] — Knowledge Seeker দ 18:46, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
Policy issues
Well, just as I was somewhat catalytical in getting a formal Arbcom system instituted, it would seem that my disregard for the letter of "the law" (after Mackensen) raises some issues about some basic policy fuckups:
- Blocks are firstly protective against vandalism. Secondly they are punitive for certain violations, but only if such violations are understood.
- The enforcers must be stewards of the process and courteous, not vigilantes with a hard-on for "the law."
- Merely clicking on a red link (as one may honestly think the block has expired) should not be the basis for a new block. (thanks KS)
- We use templates for the merest uses: Using a standard template message for blocked users is necessary. This should contain information about the nature of the block, the remedies applicable, and the channels for communication.
- I created this shortcut: Stevertigo (talk · contribs · block log) Uncle Ed 22:13, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
- The mailing list being out, this makes it necessary to provide other channels,
- Never enforce a one-sided remedy in the name of correctional policy. 3RR applied just as equally to the other party, and they were basically ignored.
- Form a blocking committee, responsible for dealing with each applied block. Allowed blocked users to edit a central blocked page, in addition to their talk page.
- The fact that sysops can unblock themselves presents the need to be explicit about the process, and for blocking sysops to give more than just a reactonary justification for repeating the act.
- Give deference to trusted sysops if we choose to circumvent the block, under unusual circumstances, for the purpose of communication. There is no comparison between the legitimacy of civil and rational explanation and the uncivil and uncommunicative use of the blocking tool.
- Unblocking oneself is not a crime, if one blocks oneself. Likewise, if due process is not followed, its fair to claim that such a block was improperly applied.
-St|eve 18:57, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- This should be moved to a policy discussion page, but here goes: I don't agree with never unblock yourself but I also think sysops shouldn't block other sysops. It looks stupid, and it IS stupid: like slamming a door and locking it, when the fellow on the other side has a spare key.
- There already is a page for controversial blocks: Wikipedia:policy enforcement log, and it's the top item on my watchlist. If whoever blocked Stevertigo had bothered to note their action there, I would have seen it much sooner. I think I found out about this from IRC - which I only started using 2 days ago.
- That said, I can't think of any rules about blocking problems like this one. We should be communicating with each other. We should all be on the same team. It should be unthinkable that any admin would 'block' another. That's why I de-opped the whole bunch last time a wheel war like this erupted (yes, Angela and Anthere took away my master key afterwards, but now I'm thinking of asking for it back).
- I'm going to join the Req for Comment or Arbitration on this one. I think blocking another admin should not be done lightly - and certainly not before really trying to work it out with the admin involved. Where was the RFC certified by 2 different users who "tried and failed" to resolve this before taking action? Was there really a warning given like one more revert and I'll block you (leaving aside how silly this would be)? Uncle Ed 22:10, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Well Ed, I damn well appreciate youre help, and I know youv'e been there. I was glad to see people take your trashing of VFD last week in good spirits, and not get all up in a wad about it. (like other times).
- I've been thinking about it a bit too, and though I do admit that unblocking myself was an improper thing, AISB, the process and the execution of policy was on shaky enough ground to render it as much an issue of sysop miscommunication as it was about proper policy enforcement. So what's needed is a standard box template for all blocked users (with specific info for sysops, etc), a central place for communication. IRC is nice, but for various reasons is not as frequented, and hence its status as a third leg should be reconsidered in favor of something on-site. Something like Craigslist.org forums would fit rather well.-St|eve 01:11, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- Template test
- Template:Userblock
- Template:blockuser
- Template:block
- Template:blocked
- Template:BlockedUser
- Template:UserBlocked
New template: template:block
{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}
. Now, banned users need to be able to edit a particular page other than their user pages. -St|eve 01:44, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Vietnam War
I notice you reverted while the page was protected. This is bad form and I have rolled you back. Please wait till the page is unprotected before reverting. - Ta bu shi da yu 02:48, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Desysop'ing request
Due to your behaviour, I have asked User:Angela and User:Jimbo Wales to desysop you. I have also noted this request on WP:AN and WP:AN/I. I am uncertain why you are being so disruptive, but it's not a good or desired quality in an administrator. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:26, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- I blocked you for two hours for violating WP:PP policy: "Do not edit a temporarily protected page except to add a protected page notice." Contrast this with your reaction, by seeking to bypass due process (Arbcom), and going to the board... over a two hour block. -St|eve 03:30, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- Uh, I undid your revert because it was inappropriate. I have never touched that article except for this rollback, which I did to made your revert as if it never happened. I have nothing personal against you, but feel that you are a rogue admin who cannot be trusted with extra privileges. If you are desysoped you will have noone to blame but yourself. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:37, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- P.S. I went straight to the board because you are abusing your admin powers. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:39, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- No. I should never have been blocked in the first place. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:44, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- I, too, notice that User:Stevertigo edited the article while it was under protection. [[User:Ta bu shi da yu's edit was apparently a reversion of that edit. For one editor to block the other in this situation seems highly inappropriate. -Willmcw 03:58, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
What were you thinking?!
Steve, I don't understand why you are shooting yourself in the foot like this. You edited a protected page, which by now you know is against the rules. Another administrator reverted and dropped you a polite note to let you know, and you block him? I thus far had refrained from participating in your Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Stevertigo, even after your retaliatory block of Mackensen (which was disturbing itself). But I find this behavior appalling. If you care for some unsolicited advice, voluntarily refrain from using your administrative powers until this cools down: this means don't edit protected pages, and don't block or unblock anyone—especially not yourself. — Knowledge Seeker দ 03:40, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
- How can you be so selective in dishing out approbrium to me for doing the same thing that he just did? The block on me for violating policy was for 24 hours, which incidentally, was enforced improperly (until someone blocked party 2). I blocked Ta bu for only 2 hours, for his act in violation of the same policy. He likewise unprotected himself, which likewise, according to those who re-blocked me, was a violation. Please dont unilaterally assign to me label of "disruption" or "escalation," and knock things out of proportion. Everyone seems to have only a piece of the elephant here and are far too quick to yell "snake". -St|eve 03:49, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- So you thought that you would block me to make a point? I think that was foolish in the extreme. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:53, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- Please dont unilaterally assign to me label of "disruption" or "escalation," If you'll check the RfC against you, you'll see that "unilateral" absolutely does not apply. Boy, this is like a reckless driver complaining that the cop who caught him broke the speeding laws. Ta bu shi da yu was restoring the status quo from before your multiple violations (12 reversions, multiple unblocking, protecting a page you were involved in a dispute on, reverting a protected page to a favored version), so accusing him of the same is a massive attack of chutzpah.
- Like Knowledge Seeker said. when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. --Calton | Talk 04:03, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
- So you thought that you would block me to make a point? I think that was foolish in the extreme. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:53, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- No, it was not to make a point. It was in the context of enforcing policy which I just happened to have been made aware of --by other enforcers. Had you not reverted the page, you would have not broken policy, hence I would not have had reason to block you.
- My interest happens to be related to the particular article, but how is one to definitively separate our academic interest in limiting the article's continued disruption from my trustee responsibility in enforcing policy? I dont have time to be special or abstract about it, related to my context --I blocked you because policy and how to enforce it were fresh on my mind. -St|eve 04:02, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- If you were aware of the policy, then why did you feel it was all right for you to break it but to block someone else whom you felt was breaking it too? You bring up a good point: it is sometimes difficult to separate our roles as editors and administrators. A simple guideline is not to use them on the same article or editors, especially if it is more complex than simple vandalism. In other words, you should not use your position as administrator to gain ground in a content dispute. I can understand that you don't have time to figure it out or that is difficult to clarify when administrative actions are appropriate. However, if this is the case, then you should not be using those powers, and adminship is probably not right for you. You can continue to be a productive editor without having those few extra buttons. — Knowledge Seeker দ 04:26, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Steve, it is not the same thing and you know it, or should know it. You edited a protected page, which you should not have done, especially since you have been involved in an edit war there. Ta bu shi da yu restored the version that was protected, the one that should not have been touched. He undid your violation of policy and left you a polite note. You were not blocked. In retaliation, you left him the same note and blocked him. If you can't see why this isn't horribly inappropriate, then I don't feel you should be an administrator. Regarding TBSDY unblocking himself, yes, I agree that in general administrators should not unblock themselves. If they feel they have been blocked inappropriately and unblock themselves, they should immediately report it on WP:AN/I so that other administrators may examine the situation. They should definitely not unblock themselves again, especially if another administrator blocks them, but rather rely on the attention from WP:AN/I to scrutinize and sort it out. Your block of TBSDY was highly inappropriate in my opinion and I would have unblocked him myself had I seen it in time. Whether he should have waited to be unblocked is questionable; I'm quite satisfied with his unblocking himself and immediately reporting his actions on WP:AN/I. If he was incorrect in removing his block, another administrator will reblock him. — Knowledge Seeker দ 04:09, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
- I understand that you're alluding to social wisdom and social context, or in laymans terms "dont rock the boat" and "shut up if you know whats good for you." But, sadly we also deal with the mechanical context of policies and rules, and how they are enforced. If these are incorrectly formed, incorrectly applied, or even slighly off, it often requires some degree of civil disruption to get them changed.
- Regarding Ta bu, I had "just served my time" and thus come to the issue freshly disciplined for my transgression, regardless of the RFC or the RFAR, etc. As a sysop I was not aware that there was some heirarchy among us --that I would be limited in my capacity to enforce "policy" relative to others. Indeed, without wanting to sound like this is all about making a point, it seems to me rather relativistic that a massive and concerted dumping of opprobrium on me be based simply in a misapplication of policy to begin with. Michael was keen to note the little subsection about equal application of the 3RR policy, but that came a day later. What we had was three or four sysops who were more ready to use the block button than they were to read the policy itself (that section of which I had some part in crafting) on which the block was based.
- Ultimately, how much more legitimate is your view that disruptiveness be the issue, rather than others claims that policy and letter of the law is more the issue. I agree that some of my actions seemed to violate the letter and perhaps even the spirit of the rules. But people seem to forget that rules are just rules. Were here to edit an encyclopedia, and I got to find out the hard way that "the rules" can be just as much a hindrance to that goal when one is ganged up on. WADR, this all smacks of tendentious relativism. I was the one to make edits to the article which were afterward "reverted." How did I wind up being guilty of more "reverts" than the other? How are my edits referred to as "reverts" while others (Ta bu for example), earn the distinction of being called "undoings?" With sincere respect, St|eve 04:29, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- Whoa! I was forced to take an admin action to resolve your violation of admin powers. This has nothing to do with a hierachy, and if you can't see that you made a mistake and did something highly inappropriate (blocking me for an action that you yourself do not agree with) then I must ask you to reconsider why you think you should be an administrator. As has been pointed out, you don't need to admin to be a great editor. I did fine on this site without admin status for quite some time. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:56, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- WADR, youre overreacting. Even if youre completely in the right, you have still been completely overreacting."You were forced?" You broke the rules. Am I the only one who gives a damn about the rules? Im not in the habit of reverting protected page versions, although I do think the policy forbidding sysops from protecting pages before they get out of hand is rather hebetudinous. Adminship isnt terribly important, but I also havent blocked but maybe six people in three years. Should I have been blocking more? The only thing I really use admin powers for is for deleting pages for moves (lots of nonstandard titles), vandal (and POV) rollbacks, and shorening excessively long ITN entries on the Main page. On rare occasions I'll see a horrible featured article intro that I need to attack, but other than that, I dont think its much of a big deal. Sorry you got involved, Ta bu. Please accept my apology for placing a 2 hour ban on you, and please forgive me if I thought (frustrated by misapplied policy and being POV ganged) that your revert was improper and violated policy. -St|eve 05:12, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- This is good enough for me. It's what we have all been looking for: an apology! - Ta bu shi da yu 07:02, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- P.S. I have tried to be as restrained as possible in my comments of what happened here. I have tried not to look too much into your motives, but have been concerned about the admin actions you have undertaken. Please try to be more restrained in your admin activities. I myself have made controversial blocks: I did one to -Ril-, but immediately reported this to WP:AN and WP:AN/I so that other could review and, if necessary, reverse the block. I suggest doing this in future. Please also refrain from editing locked articles. I did actually like your edit better on Vietnam War, but the article shouldn't have been touched until the protection was stopped. Also, next time you get into a revert war, may I suggest you:
- revert
- note why on the talk page, take comments into account
- revert again, always taking into account comments on the talk page
- revert again, again taking into account comments on the talk page
- file an RFC on the article - don't revert again for a while. Message a few editors you respect (this is controversial advise, but I don't have a problem with it)
- if editor continues to revert senselessly, ask for mediation
- if mediation fails, file a user conduct RFC
- if all else fails, take editor to ArbCom.
- Take this advise as you will. I might note that I know you are a fine editor, and I think you have done much valuable work here. Everyone makes mistakes. My own Waterloo can be found in the history of Dalek. Ta bu shi da yu 07:23, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Ta bu. Ive read most of the related comments, and aside from the rather reactionary ones, many have had points which require note. First off is the fact that Im not entirely familiar with current nuances of block policy. Ive been around since before some of that policy was around, helped to craft some of it and thus I feel more familiar with it than I am literate of it. Im aware of the flaws in forming it and therefore havent taken as literal. Thus Ive hardly ever used blocking before, and likewise have never blocked a sysop before. What after all is the point? On the one hand, its good to see a sysop ban being enforced, on the other hand, it was crummy to see it used as a POV tool. Ive tried the RFC before - got no response. I answered every single niggle raised by a gangbang gaggle of three different editors of various intellects, and it still came down to a who complained first (at 3RR). Oh well. Thanks for listening, and IIMSS, your capacities do seem rather well-formed —for a youngling. :) I'm going off to mourn Peter Jennings and then to bed. Sinreg, friendly pirate.-St|eve 07:39, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
RFC
Are you aware of the following? Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Stevertigo. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:52, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- What does this have to do with your edit of a protected page? Should I not have been the one to block you? Should I have filed a complaint first? That doesnt seem to be the way things have been working around here. Maybe, having been blocked Im a bit more aware of what the bars look like from the other side, and the need to for some consistency to be introduced.-St|eve 04:05, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- What you should have done was not edit a protected page, and not taken any action against the one who undid your error. — Knowledge Seeker দ 04:11, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
- I did not file the RFC, I am merely making you aware of its existence. I have endorsed it, however. - Ta bu shi da yu 05:05, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Get a grip
Steve, you were doing all right for a few months, then you started acting dizzy and spinning out of control. This is disorienting to others and makes them nauseous (if you get the drift of all these metaphors). If you keep "blocking" other Admins, I am not going to be able to defend your actions. What is so urgent that you have to slam the door on people who have spare keys, anyway? Don't you believe in teamwork?
If these wheel wars keep up, it's going to force the community to appoint some more Stewards with the authority to de-op Admins temporarily. And if they give this power to me, I would de-op almost everyone in the last week who 'blocked' fellow Admins.
Because they did not really talk things over properly. And some of them are using 'blocking' as a substitute for trying to change policy, which is dumb because vigilantism is not a good way to drum up consensus.
You have a tendency to become adamant (as I do), but you take it too far (as I sometimes do). Please don't take it so for, so often. And please include others (like me) in the process. We need teamwork here. Uncle Ed 12:18, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
Request to de-admin yourself
Steve, based on the comments made by many members of the community on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Stevertigo, I am asking that you voluntarily de-admin yourself (a request can be made to Angela). There seems to be consensus that trust has been lost and I don't see the need to drag this through arbitration. There's no reason you couldn't regain adminship again through RfA. Please consider this. Carbonite | Talk 12:29, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- You could always ask for a temporary "no prejudice" de-op. Just say you want to relinquish your sysop rights for (1) a specific period of time or (2) pending outcome of the discussion. If you choose #1, any bureaucrat (such as me) can legitimately re-op you when the self-imposed period ends. I checked the rulez and this is permitted.
- Either that, or just agree not to use any of the disputed powers in any of the disputed areas. This might be just as good (and would, if you were a bit more genial), but it's clearer and would make a better impression if you went to Angela or Anthere. Uncle Ed 14:36, August 8, 2005 (UTC)