→Someone just called this to my attention: it wasn't funny |
Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk | contribs) →Someone just called this to my attention: from the great philospher Walter Sobchak |
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::: Continuing the fine tradition of caring more about civility than content [[User:William M. Connolley|William M. Connolley]] ([[User talk:William M. Connolley|talk]]) 16:43, 14 November 2011 (UTC) |
::: Continuing the fine tradition of caring more about civility than content [[User:William M. Connolley|William M. Connolley]] ([[User talk:William M. Connolley|talk]]) 16:43, 14 November 2011 (UTC) |
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::: I did not perceive the comment as humorous, and found your intervention more disruptive than helpful. It's possible the process could have been resolved at WQA. [[User:Gerardw|Gerardw]] ([[User talk:Gerardw|talk]]) 20:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC) |
::: I did not perceive the comment as humorous, and found your intervention more disruptive than helpful. It's possible the process could have been resolved at WQA. [[User:Gerardw|Gerardw]] ([[User talk:Gerardw|talk]]) 20:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC) |
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::::Jimbo may not be aware that this is a line from the movie [[The Big Lebowski||''The Big Lebowski,'']] which is a popular source of in-jokes in certain sections of the Wikipedia community (Google for "shut the fuck up, Donny"). Sometimes we forget that not everyone is in on the joke. I was tempted to respond with "Jimbo, you're out of your element" but maybe that wouldn't have been the best idea. [[User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|Short Brigade Harvester Boris]] ([[User talk:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|talk]]) 20:38, 14 November 2011 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:38, 14 November 2011
Greetings
Hi all!
I'll answer all messages left on this page here, so that a possible discussion is kept in context. Watch this if you are waiting for an answer.
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PowerPoint
Hah! Good one. I know Tufte hates PowerPoint and various people blame it for various bad things, but if the goal is to make a slide-ish presentation that looks good, there indeed is nothing close to PowerPoint (as far as I know). PowerPoint is a fine tool if the presenter puts a lot of thought into what he or she wants to communicate and how to do it. If there's a problem with PowerPoint, it's that nobody takes courses on how to communicate well with it. Comet Tuttle (talk) 19:27, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
- Check the computing ref desk for further comment. I regularly use PowerPoint and Keynote, and Keynote is a lot less painful overall. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:33, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
- Haven't used either, but note that An Inconvenient Truth#The slide show has been discussed as a successful use of Keynote. . . .dave souza, talk 19:48, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
- I'm always struck by [1]. Of course, in that case it's probably not primarily the tool. And it's hard to make such presentations and to use them effectively. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:54, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
- Haven't used either, but note that An Inconvenient Truth#The slide show has been discussed as a successful use of Keynote. . . .dave souza, talk 19:48, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
Hi, I suggested to Ebanony and Rjensen that they first get the article "TJ and slavery" edited to their satisfaction, then bring the collaboration back to that summary section (hopefully) in the TJ article. They agreed, so most of the discussion on that topic should now be at the associated article, if you're still interested.Parkwells (talk) 13:57, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks. I am, and will take a look. But I'm somewhat busy, and "An American Controversy" is still next on my reading list... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:00, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
Table
[2] is instructive - thanks. Minor note: I could have endorsed several other views, but felt that a few was indicative. That doesn't matter for a broad overlook, though William M. Connolley (talk) 12:59, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
- You're welcome. I found it hard to get an overall feel for the opinions, so I tried to organize the data a bit. I should be able to do this algorithmically, but the structure was a bit to irregular, and signatures are a pain to parse. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:02, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
Question Minor Deletion
Hello, I wish to question why exactly you removed the 2 words I was able to contribute to "The Age of the Earth." (These being "supposedly" and "proposed") Please look up the meaning of the word "science" before you remove such a word as "supposedly" or "proposed." Please prove to me how "supposedly" or "proposed" should be removed from these sentences. Are you acting on your own belief system, or behaving in neutrality, in adherence to the rules of Wikipedia? -MusicalCrossbow
- Given this edit, I don't think we have a sufficient base for communication. However, I do have some experience with science. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:25, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I am sorry, but I do not feel you've answered the questions I've posted adequately. Could you please commence in doing so? I am genuinely curious as to why you acted in the manner you did. May I add that just because "you have some experience with science" does not prove why removing my words was beneficial or correct. Musicalcrossbow (talk) 19:24, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
- Editors on the article's talk page is discussing this matter, therefore discussion on individual user talk pages is not necessary, and would in fact hinder the communication efforts of users trying to communicate across multiple user talk pages. Please keep the discussions related to the article on the article's talk page. Thank you. - SudoGhost 19:38, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments on Talk:Willie Soon.
Thank you for your comments on Talk:Willie_Soon#Documents_show... (",) 99.181.146.41 (talk) 06:21, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Thanks!
Thanks for the AGF nudge re: the Marcus Bachman/Tarc discussion. You were right, and I have removed that part of my comment. --MelanieN (talk) 15:58, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- You're welcome! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:19, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for your contribution to Talk:Climatic Research Unit email controversy
Thank you for your contribution to Talk:Climatic Research Unit email controversy. (",) 99.190.86.162 (talk) 23:26, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- You're welcome! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:35, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
thank you re/ Rio Hamza
Dear Stephan, thank you for also having an eye on the Rio Hamza page. I was put out to see there was no critical material in it when I came upon the BBC article, but was worried nobody with better technical skills than mine would notice the Wiki piece. Vielen dank! Pufferfyshe (talk) 19:31, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
- You're welcome. I actually saw the first message on Slashdot, and then noted some syntax trouble in the references here... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:00, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
An editor has moved most of the historiography content on the "Jefferson-Hemings controversy" to a new article, Debate about paternity of Sally Hemings' children, but it has been recommended for speedy deletion as duplicating material in the Jefferson DNA data article and not having included the Talk page discussions on this topic.Parkwells (talk) 17:51, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
Help on ruling
I believe the admin Kuru has made a terrible mistake here.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:LardoBalsamico_reported_by_User:Sillystuff84_.28Result:_page_protected.29 Sillystuff84 (talk) 14:55, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- He has all but admitted his mistake here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Kuru#3RR_or_4RR.3F Sillystuff84 (talk) 15:13, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- I don't know Kuru, but as far as I can tell, he has behaved graciously and wisely so far. You did, indeed, revert 4 times, even if you only used "undo" thrice. Please carefully re-read WP:3RR. "Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert." Note that blocks are not punitive, and no admin is ever forced to make a block. If there is another way to prevent edit warring, it's certainly preferred. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:41, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
One out of two
I really need the opinion of someone clever and argumentative. Want to think through a casual comment at the school date. I guess one out of clever and argumentative might do so thought I would try you. Q: what is the status of "Evolution" or most of biology for that matter in scientific terms Q background: obviously I have never even met anyone credible who doubted the essential correctness of evolution as a description but (1) the falsifiable fundamental governing equations of biology would appear to be quantum electronics (2) no derivation of evolution from QE appears to exist, unlike say the central limit theory recontruction of Newton's Laws from Hamilton's Principle or Quantum Mechanics (3) equally there doesn't appear any general belief that evolution ever gives different results from QE; it is not required to "prove" its existence by finding a hole in the contender's description. So in some ways this leaves evolution in No Man's Land. Is evolution (and biology) therefore a sort of "rule of thumb" rather than proper science, to be tested against "usefulness" rather than "truth"? I mean it can not really compete with QE on truth. A bit like chess rules like "knights on the rim are dim" which have now been superceded by decent chess computers? Or is there something subtler in your view about science providing human understanding which allows parallel description without requiring inter derivability (thats dangerous as an argument because then we might as well cure cancer rather than search for the Higgs boson/bottom/bozmo)? --BozMo talk 19:03, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'm really argumentative, so I don't know if I should feel flattered....
- I really think there is a fallacy here. We don't need to reduce something down to first principles (in fact, we may not even know the first principles) in order for it to be science. Note that no-one would bother to reduce the curve of a falling stone down to the quantum level (indeed, given that it is also governed by gravity, and that we don't have have a working theory of quantum gravity, nobody could), and yet mechanics is a science. Evolution can be demonstrated as a mathematical principle on a purely algorithmic level - see e.g. genetic algorithm. Evolution as a biological fact can both be observed directly and in the fossil record. It makes testable predictions about both the fossil record (see e.g. the discovery of Tiktaalik and the non-discovery of a precambrian rabbit) and the phylogenetic relationships between species and their genetic makeup. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:20, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- The idea that science is about "truth" is a delusion mostly confined to mathematicians and perhaps a few physicists (e.g. [3]). Science is, in fact, intended to be "useful" rather than "true". It's intended to provide a framework for understanding the natural world and allowing one to make testable predictions about it. Everything about our current understanding of biology is an approximation of the truth, and hopefully a useful approximation. MastCell Talk 20:16, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- @MC Actually mathematicians in my experience generally get the approximate bit right. The relative sizes of datasets of "real world" versus "spoken language" is pretty convincing on that point and scientific description is at best convergent. Also most mathematicians seem to understand that the fact that a "projection" is singular means that selection of facts in a description can be misleading as in painting versus photograph. @StS good, agree-ish so you are basically happy with any description set which follows scientific rules regardless of its relationship (in terms of parallel explanation of the same thing) to any other? That gives you no intuitive issues? I am curious partly on the "could all of modern science be formulated in terms of alchemy" argument". I guess you answer "why should I care if it could"? --BozMo talk 21:48, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- @MC Or perhaps I should say the wisest of the wise, Applied Mathematicians. I had to do a whole 24 lecture course on Asymptotics in Part III at Cambridge which is entirely around the convergent nature of mathematical models and when limits are well behaved. I noticed at the Science desk quite a lot of the physics contributors are missing this and invoke missing effects (friction, mass etc) without an awarenesss of whether the limit as these tend to zero is well behaved or not (eg picking up a coiled perfect chain by helicopter for example where extreme behaviour/galloping is caused as the flexibility tends to infinity, you cannot just say "friction becomes relevant"). Broadly though there is a valid definition of truth with limited usefulness since it is only in a convergent sense self-referred to a single reasonable sentient being. "X is true if the person who said X would still maintain its truth when presented with all relevant data" etc. The relevant Cambridge academic on that in my day was Brian Hebblethwaite. But none of that answers the question to StS. --BozMo talk 07:27, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Science is, at heart, a process that gives us a series of increasingly better (in the long run ;-) models of reality. Of course our trust in any particular model increases if it is not only supported by direct evidence, but is also compatible with, or, ideally, can be derived from, another well-supported model. Such support is frequent, but not necessary. I'm a bit confused by your claim about "the falsifiable fundamental governing equations of biology would appear to be quantum electronics" - we have arrived at the theory of evolution (though not in its current depth and breadth) before we knew about quantum theory (and, indeed, before we had discovered the electron ;-). Hence even if we eventually would falsify quantum theory, it would not directly affect evolution. Indeed, even if we could derive evolution directly from quantum theory, falsifying quantum theory would not falsify evolution - it would just remove some support for it. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I guess it doesn't matter if you don't understand what I meant since I have the info on your view which I wanted. FWIW the issue is whether any scientific picture is more fundamental than another when several exist concerning the same physical events. But your view is clearly not (that is to say you are not a reductionist) which is fine and I think right, and furthermore that complete independence is possible which on reflection I think I also agree with. --BozMo talk 18:23, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
- Science is, at heart, a process that gives us a series of increasingly better (in the long run ;-) models of reality. Of course our trust in any particular model increases if it is not only supported by direct evidence, but is also compatible with, or, ideally, can be derived from, another well-supported model. Such support is frequent, but not necessary. I'm a bit confused by your claim about "the falsifiable fundamental governing equations of biology would appear to be quantum electronics" - we have arrived at the theory of evolution (though not in its current depth and breadth) before we knew about quantum theory (and, indeed, before we had discovered the electron ;-). Hence even if we eventually would falsify quantum theory, it would not directly affect evolution. Indeed, even if we could derive evolution directly from quantum theory, falsifying quantum theory would not falsify evolution - it would just remove some support for it. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- @MC Or perhaps I should say the wisest of the wise, Applied Mathematicians. I had to do a whole 24 lecture course on Asymptotics in Part III at Cambridge which is entirely around the convergent nature of mathematical models and when limits are well behaved. I noticed at the Science desk quite a lot of the physics contributors are missing this and invoke missing effects (friction, mass etc) without an awarenesss of whether the limit as these tend to zero is well behaved or not (eg picking up a coiled perfect chain by helicopter for example where extreme behaviour/galloping is caused as the flexibility tends to infinity, you cannot just say "friction becomes relevant"). Broadly though there is a valid definition of truth with limited usefulness since it is only in a convergent sense self-referred to a single reasonable sentient being. "X is true if the person who said X would still maintain its truth when presented with all relevant data" etc. The relevant Cambridge academic on that in my day was Brian Hebblethwaite. But none of that answers the question to StS. --BozMo talk 07:27, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- @MC Actually mathematicians in my experience generally get the approximate bit right. The relative sizes of datasets of "real world" versus "spoken language" is pretty convincing on that point and scientific description is at best convergent. Also most mathematicians seem to understand that the fact that a "projection" is singular means that selection of facts in a description can be misleading as in painting versus photograph. @StS good, agree-ish so you are basically happy with any description set which follows scientific rules regardless of its relationship (in terms of parallel explanation of the same thing) to any other? That gives you no intuitive issues? I am curious partly on the "could all of modern science be formulated in terms of alchemy" argument". I guess you answer "why should I care if it could"? --BozMo talk 21:48, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- The idea that science is about "truth" is a delusion mostly confined to mathematicians and perhaps a few physicists (e.g. [3]). Science is, in fact, intended to be "useful" rather than "true". It's intended to provide a framework for understanding the natural world and allowing one to make testable predictions about it. Everything about our current understanding of biology is an approximation of the truth, and hopefully a useful approximation. MastCell Talk 20:16, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
"slow erosion of article quality"
Hmm, I had been curious if anyone else had noticed that. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:30, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
- Even if they've noticed, I don't think many people are allowed to comment about it. After all, erosion is a natural phenomenon related to climate change, broadly construed. MastCell Talk 17:36, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
- LOL. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:20, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think this is simply the effect of people which do not have a good, deep understanding of the domain pulling together bits and pieces from different sources of varying quality and with slightly different definitions and viewpoints. I can recognise it, but I have neither the time nor, probably, the knowledge, to effectively change the situation. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:20, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
- Isn't it likely (based on dynamic system theory) to be cyclical rather than terminal? Tinkerers mess about and degrade articles on WP until from time to time they get bad enough to irritate the experts who then fix them? I am reminded a bit of the famous (non notable) saw-tooth problem with the quality of management in companies. No one ever appoints someone taller than their intellectual armpit, because the new manager is always a potential threat to their position. So sires are succeeded by lesser sons or daughters until eventually someone is appointed who is so stupid they don't realise the threat and they appoint the best person, starting the top of a new saw-tooth. Hence the quality of top management in most really big companies (BP and the like) cycles, as do Wikipedia articles. Perhaps also true of political leadership. It is true over a wider range of technical fluid dynamics ones and religious ones which I watch. The only exceptions are owned articles which have their own problems. --BozMo talk 19:18, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Response to Beck's claim of 430 ppm/1940 by RF Keeling
Hi. I appreciate your response on my WP:RD question. You stated that you could not find any online available versions, but many journal publication sites offer full PDFs free. Here is a microsoft word document for the specific paper: [4]. The original Beck paper made claims about volumetric methods, either at ground level or on air balloons, as opposed to the manometric pressure method developed by Charles D Keeling. It is likely true that the great flux is implausible, but I wonder whether the ocean was involved to some extent. Many 'high concentration" CO2 measurements up till the 1950's were recorded in northern regions under the influence of the Gulf Stream, including one station near Jakobshavn Isbrae in Greenland, which recorded 480 ppm. A sudden local release of carbon dioxide from the warm ocean currents is perhaps plausible during the warming of circa 1920-1950. The paper I described called the rising concentrations an open question, available here. The estimates of carbon source/sink proportions for land seem high compared to ocean. Some early data were labelled erroneous as some measurements were taken during heavy snowfall, while others involved other forms of precipitation or high contributions from nearby cities. Some of the individuals who wrote certain journal papers have Wikipedia articles. I would like more information regarding the "chemical method", its validity and how it compares to the manometric method when used in the same locations. Additionally, does the depressuring effect of retrieving ice cores actually produce an 'artificial' curve in carbon dioxide concentrations like the skeptical source I linked claims? That would not seem to explain pre-historic ice age fluctuations, which are indeed accurately recorded in ice cores. Does carbon dioxide gas also mix more evenly at higher altitudes such as Hawaii's volcanic mountain peaks, compared to surface concentrations over say Europe?
Thanks. Warm regards (pun totally intended),
~AH1 (discuss!) 01:07, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- Hi. Is there a specific reason why you did not respond to this message, or do I need to post yet another question on the reference desk? Thanks. ~AH1 (discuss!) 18:38, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
- Oy, sorry. The specific reason is that I was too busy to read up on the topic when you posted it, and, being busy still, it slipped my mind enough to avoid replying. Your link to the Keeling response is still only to the draft by Keeling, not the final paper by Meijer and Keeling, as far as I can tell. The paper you reference is from 1955, i.e. more than half a century out of date. RealClimate has a reaonably good discussion of Beck here, in particular including some comments on the difficulty of measuring the true CO2 background, and not just local effects and noise. A quick Google also turned up this claim in what looks lie a RS to me. Finally, if Jaworowski claimed that the sun raises in the East, I would be very much tempted to get up early to verify that. Also note that he claims that effect that supposedly causes the "depressuring problem" starts at an ice depth of 200m, and that, at that depth, the ice is almost certainly much older than any human measurement of CO2. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:34, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
"Free as a Bird" proposed lede change
FYI, there is a vote taking place here, and your input would be appreciated. — GabeMc (talk) 03:34, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for the information. I have looked at the page shortly, and I can honestly say that I don't really mind either way. This is rare ;-). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:08, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Awww
You gave away the punch line! Hipocrite (talk) 20:43, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about! Absolutely no idea, I tell you! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:54, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
ANI - can you explain your comment?
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Lugnuts (talk • contribs)
- Answered there. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:24, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
Someone just called this to my attention
This edit wasn't really the kind of thing that I hope to see from the best admins. I hope that you'll reconsider that kind of interaction, and if you are in that kind of mood, just step away from the computer for awhile.
We have to deal with all kinds of super annoying people around here - and it's really important that we have a "clean paper trail" and set a good example for newbies. Cursing at people is not helpful. If someone has done something so bad that they need to be cursed at, then they have done something bad enough to simply be blocked.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:23, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
- I wasn't aware that I'm one of the best admins ;-). Seriously, I was trying for some lightheartedness. Apparently we don't all share the same sense of humor. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:27, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
- Not many people appreciate being told to shut the fuck up when they are already in an emotional conflict. And yes, I think that a big part of working together harmoniously with others is trying to remember that not everyone has the same sense of humor. Obviously humor is contextual, and in some contexts remarks like that can be ok, but I think in Wikipedia - and online generally - the social cues are suppressed by the technology and even remarks meant lightheartedly can end up generating more heat than light. :-) Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful response!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:39, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
- Continuing the fine tradition of caring more about civility than content William M. Connolley (talk) 16:43, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
- I did not perceive the comment as humorous, and found your intervention more disruptive than helpful. It's possible the process could have been resolved at WQA. Gerardw (talk) 20:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
- Jimbo may not be aware that this is a line from the movie |The Big Lebowski, which is a popular source of in-jokes in certain sections of the Wikipedia community (Google for "shut the fuck up, Donny"). Sometimes we forget that not everyone is in on the joke. I was tempted to respond with "Jimbo, you're out of your element" but maybe that wouldn't have been the best idea. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:38, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
- Not many people appreciate being told to shut the fuck up when they are already in an emotional conflict. And yes, I think that a big part of working together harmoniously with others is trying to remember that not everyone has the same sense of humor. Obviously humor is contextual, and in some contexts remarks like that can be ok, but I think in Wikipedia - and online generally - the social cues are suppressed by the technology and even remarks meant lightheartedly can end up generating more heat than light. :-) Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful response!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:39, 14 November 2011 (UTC)