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Please see my message in response to your request [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Venu62#I_need_your_help_and_would_like_you_to_become_my_admin..._is_that_possible here]. -- [[User:Sundar|Sundar]] <sup>\[[User talk:Sundar|talk]] \[[Special:Contributions/Sundar|contribs]]</sup> 06:46, 24 April 2008 (UTC) |
Please see my message in response to your request [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Venu62#I_need_your_help_and_would_like_you_to_become_my_admin..._is_that_possible here]. -- [[User:Sundar|Sundar]] <sup>\[[User talk:Sundar|talk]] \[[Special:Contributions/Sundar|contribs]]</sup> 06:46, 24 April 2008 (UTC) |
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:I'm sorry that I can't be your mentor because I don't have too much time for Wikipedia. I'm sure someone else will take you through. The problem with relying purely on epigraphic evidence is that interpreting them would amount to [[WP:OR|original research]] or [[WP:SYN|synthesis]]. We need established scholars writing research papers or books on those instructions and not general websites. Something like the following: |
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{{cite journal|title=Inscriptions as Artifacts: Precolonial South India and the Analysis of Texts|journal=Journal of Archaeological Method and Theory|date=1997|first=Kathleen D.|last=Morrison|coauthors=Mark T. Lycett|volume=4|issue=3|pages=219, 224|id= |url=|format=|accessdate=2008-04-23 }} |
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You can add such citations by following the instructions [[WP:CITE|here]]. -- [[User:Sundar|Sundar]] <sup>\[[User talk:Sundar|talk]] \[[Special:Contributions/Sundar|contribs]]</sup> 08:10, 24 April 2008 (UTC) |
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== Response to your query == |
== Response to your query == |
Revision as of 08:10, 24 April 2008
Chalukya Dynasty
Hi. In the past two days you have been adding a lot of unsourced material which seems like POV to the articles on the Kings of the Chalukya Dynasty. I would request you to stop this and discuss about it. You have also tried to add unsourced info into the Badami Chalukya Architecture article without discussion. If you continue this, an adminstrator will be notified about this.Thank you.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 13:02, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Dear Dinesh,
I find that in the articles on Chalukya Kings, attempts have been made to portray them in all glory while attributing both unverified and unsourced victories to Chalukya Kings and defeats to their opponents. An example in question is that after the defeat of Pulakesi II by Narasimha Pallava Vatapi remained in the occupation of the Pallavas for around 25 years up to AD 670 (with Narasimhavarman I or Narasimha Pallavan remaining in thrown up to 668 AD and being followed by Mahendra Varman II for four years). This being the case how come after accession to the thrown Vikramaditya I defeated Narasimhavarman I and drew him out of Vatapi? This itself is doubtful because Narasimhavarman I not only killed Pulakesi II in Vatapi but his armies are supposed to have completely destroyed Vatapi. Subsequent to Pulakesi II's death and destruction of Vatapi or Badami, the Chalukyas are supposed to have moved their capital from Vatapi to Aihole. There is no question of Narasimhavarman I being defeated and driven out of Vatapi. Pls. also read the page on Narasimhavarman I where it is said that he CAME BACK VICTORIOUS to Kanchi and installed a statue of Ganesha brought from Chalukya country which is still installed in a temple in Kanchi.
I am of course, new to the Wikipedia site and visited the site to collect information about Pallava architecture. But shockingly, contrary to whatever I have read in school, I found that the information given on a comparable basis between Chalukya Kings and the Chola kings is unfortunately composed in a manner that is blatantly favourable to Chalukya Kings. I do not know which historian it is who describes the Cholas as insufferably cruel in one page. Pls. tell me how the builders of such gigantic temples not only in Tamil Nadu but in Andhra and even in Karnataka deserve to be described as unsufferably cruel, when all they did was to fight with all their might and valour??? (as a proof, I would request you to visit the office of the Archaeological Survey of India at the Hoysaleshwara Temple premises where in a Board (to serve as a guide to various temples in Karnataka) where the list of Chola temples built by kings from the time of Rajendra Chola to Kulothunga I and Vikrama Chola are given - the list of Chola temples in Chalukya country or Karnataka itself is around 25 or 28 - yet, in none of the pages of Chola Kings these facts are attributed). Surely, these sort of machinations are being done by person or persons who are thoroughly jingoistic and do not have regard for what they regard as counter culture or people. Don't you agree that this is some sort of POV to the Chola Kings or kings not hailing from any part of Karnataka?
Also fancifully, it is described that in 992 Raja Raja Chola was vanquished by Tailapa II - pray, where is the proof of this unfounded and unsolicited information... Universally, the Gupta King Samudragupta, Maurya King Ashoka, Pallava Narasimhavarman I and the Chola Kings, Raja Raja I and Rajendra Chola I are universally regarded as the only great kings in Indian history who never lost a battle in their life. Then how come and from what source is the information about Tailapa II "Vanquishing" Raja Raja Chola I emerging from?All that has happened is that while Tailapa II did dethrone the Rashtrakuta and reclaimed the erstwhile Chalukya Empire, superlatives such as his imaginary victory over the Cholas have been added to his achievements. Equally shameful is the fact of Somesvara I (Ahavamalla) refusing to face Virarajendra I at Maski out of sheer feer, which fact is being masked by giving the information that Somesvara I was terminally ill etc. and that he drowned himself. The fact is Somesvara I suffered one defeat after another against the Cholas because even the act of Rajadhiraja I being killed on the battlefield at Koppam could not prevent the Chalukya army being defeated then and there by Rajendra II who immediately took the mantle of leadership on behalf of the Cholas. The glaring fact is that Somesvara I was unable and unwilling to face his own people for his inability to face the Cholas in the Battlefield and hence committed suicide. He was not terminally sick with any disease etc. which are utter lies.
Secondly, the next king Satyashraya is again described as having won victories against Rajendra and Raja Raja I. Let me inform you that NEVER in the history of the Chalukya and Chola Empire was a war between these two sides EVER FOUGHT IN CHOLA TERRITORY. WARS WERE ALWAYS FOUGHT IN DESTINATIONS LIKE KOPPAL, KUDALA SANGAMA, vIJAYAWADA (PART OF EASTERN CHALUKYA TERRITORY) AND OTHER PARTS OF KARNATAKA, BUT NEVER WITHIN ANY AREA CONTROLLED BY THE CHOLAS. With that being the case, what is the proof that Satyashraya defeated both Rajendra Chola and Raja Raja Chola I. It is also a fact in Chola history that after becoming the Yuvaraja Rajendra Chola was the one who participated in all wars for the Cholas with Raja Raja I only deputing his son to wars. That is the reason the statement of Satyashraya defeating Raja Raja I and Rajendra Chola I is absolutely concocted and false. You can consult any number of historians and they will all tell you Raja Raja I, Rajendra I, Ashoka, Samudra Gupta and Narasimha Varman never lost any wars in their life.
Also in the page on Satyashraya, how shamelessly the Cholas have been described: See for yourself:
Rajendra marched up to Donur near Kudalasangama and Unakal near Hubli and plundered the entire county, slaughtering women, men and children and threatening the Chalukya capital Manyakheta. Satyasrya was thus compelled to withdraw from Vengi and retreat to his kingdom in the western Deccan.
LET ME SAY IN CLEAR TERMS: NEVER IN HISTORY HAVE RAJA RAJA, RAJENDRA CHOLA I EVER BEEN KNOWN TO ATTACK WOMEN AND CHILDREN, AND THE ONLY MEN THEY ATTACKED MIGHT ONLY BE SOLDIERS. WHILE I SHARE YOUR DESIRE THAT ONLY THE CORRECT INFORMATION ABOUT CHALUKYAS SHOULD BE WRITTEN, IT DOES NOT GIVE ANYONE THE RIGHT TO ALSO WRITE ABOUT THEIR RIVALS OR ENEMIES ALSO IN DESPICABLY DEROGATORY TERMS. Please take time and read about the Chola country and society including status of women etc. which will prove how wrong is their description of attacking women and children. I am sure you will advice the concerned to delete those remarks against Chola Kings also. It is described that Rajendra marched up to Donur and Kudala Sangama. That shows the capacity of both Rajendra and the Chola army to penetrate deep into enemy territory. How many attacks did Chalukya Kings lead into Chola territory. They have nothing except the night attack and looting of Gangaikondacholapuram by Vikramaditya VI on the orders of Somesvara I during the time of Virarajendra, for which the Chola army not only routed them from their territories but also led the battle right in the heart of the Chalukya territory. No doubt the jingoists, not wanting to digest what actually is the truth are resorting to such cowardly and manipulative tactics as describing the greatest Chola kings as looters and killers of women and children.
I am sure you will surely have something to say on this despicable manner of interpreting history on the part of the interested persons.
- Dear Srirangam, those articles I wrote are sourced from K.A. Nilakanta Sastri and S.U. Kamath, just to name two reliable sources among many. You are perhaps wrong. Vatapi was not in Pallava pocession for 25 years, rather opinions may vary, 12 years being a more popular number. DR. K.V.Ramesh (Director ASI) also confirms that. I also find much of the content in Pallava and Chola pages very wrong and misleading. So lets not try to reinvent the wheel and carry on with other issues, or this process could go on for ever. Since you are new to wiki, you may not be aware but this discussion has been had on other occassions with other wikipedians. Keep your "Uppecased" arguements to your self. Its extremely rude to write in uppercase. You are not the first wikipedian to come along and claim Pallava/Chola supremacy over the Chalukyas, nor will you be the last. Lets just sit back, savor the thought that all four empires; Badami Chalukyas, Kalyani Chalukyas, Pallavas and Cholas were great in their way and time. Lets leave it there and focus on building other articles. good luck.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 12:50, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Dinesh,
What is the meaning of keep uppercased arguments to yourself?
I find it odd that a point I was trying to emphasize by bringing to the fore aspects of history that had completely been ignored in the articles which purport events surrounding Chalukya kings, but end up rubbishing and speaking in a very derisive manner about Chola kings has been taken by you in a wrong spirit. Moreover, you say the content shown in Chola and Pallava pages are unacceptable to you, then I would like to say that yes, I am indeed prepared for a discussion on those unacceptable aspects (to you) regarding the Cholas and Pallavas. In the same breath, were Prof. Nilakanta Sastri and S.U.Kamath direct witnesses to the fact that Raja Raja and Rajendra Chola plundered and looted people in Chalukya country and killed women and children? Did the Director of ASI also attest the fact that women and children were molested, raped and killed by the Cholas? It probably is in the pages on Chalukya and Hoysala kings that they are desperately sought to be portrayed to be superior over any one existing during their time. Much in the same breath the raiding, looting and damaging or property at Kanchi and Gangaikondacholapuram by Vikramaditya VI during the reign of his father Somesvara I is portrayed as a sack and attack while the victorious march of Rajendra I in Donnur and Kudalasangama is sought to be portrayed as pillaging, looting and killing of innocents including women and children. The Chalukyas in their lifetime never occupied an inch of Chola territory of any part of Tamilakam (even the war between Satyashraya and Rajendra Chola as representative of Raja Raja I was over control of Gangavadi and Nolambadi which were under Chalukya feudatories. Yes indeed, I am new to Wikipedia, but it appears that the falsification of history replete with lies and half-truths had been carried on with impunity, without anybody presenting the other point of view or there being a determination not to see the other's point of view. srirangam99
- Please keep your patriotism under control. In wiki, we go by what the historans say. We dont write what we think is right.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 13:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
In the same breath, can I know which historian has attested to the fact that Rajendra I looted and killed women and children? At wikipedia, do historians also have wholesale sanction for spreading lies and half-truths. Pls. also see the wikipedia's own pages on Tailapa-II and Raja Raja I. In the Tailapa-II article a statement is made that in 992 Raja Raja I was vanquished while in the page on Raja Raja I, it is stated that Raja Raja I did not undertake any expedition till the 8th year of his reign, which must correspond to the year 993... plus also when we corraborate this with the historical events concerning Raja Raja I's conquest of Kandalur Salai and areas under the domain of Pandyas and Chera kings. All this was in the year 994 and the excerpts from that page are these:
The southern kingdoms of Pandyas, Cheras and the Sinhalas were often allied against the Cholas.[5] It was the case when Rajaraja came to the throne. Rajaraja's initial campaigns were against the combined Pandya and Chera armies. There is no evidence of any military campaign undertaken by Rajaraja until the eighth year of his reign. During this period he was engaged in organising and augumenting his army and in preparing for military expeditions.[6][7]
Kandalur Salai The very first military achievement of Rajaraja’s reign was the campaign in the Kerala country c 994 C.E.. Rajaraja’s early inscriptions use the descriptive ‘Kandalur salai kalamarutta’ (காந்தளுர் சாலைக் களமறுத்த). In this campaign Rajaraja is said to have destroyed a fleet in the port of Kandalur, which appears to have been situated in the dominions of the Chera King Bhaskara Ravi Varman Thiruvadi (c. 978 – 1036 C.E.).[8][9] Inscriptions found around Thanjavur show that frequent references are made to the conquest of the Chera king and the Pandyas in Malai-nadu (the west coast of South India). It is also further added thus in wikipedia pages only:
Some years' fighting apparently was necessary before the conquest could be completed and the conquered country could be sufficiently settled for its administration could be properly organised.[11]
This only goes on to prove that having fought his first war only in 993 i.e. the 8th year of his reign, there was no way Raja Raja I could have fought a war against Tailapa-II and either lost or won against him. Also if at all we have to join or gather pieces of history about a conflict between Tailapa-II, then two things become clear:
1. certainly Tailapa-II and Raja Raja I did not fight each other in the year 992 which is further corraborated by another illuminating fact of Raja Raja not undertaking any war expedition till the 8th year of his reign which is 993... that means Tailapa-II and Raja Raja did not fight in the year 993 also.
2. Because Raja Raja I undertook expeditions from the year 994 onwards towards the Pandya and Chera territories and could not have won those areas in a single day which is further backed by the lines "Some years fighting was necessary before the conquest could be completed......."" which means if nothing else the period 994 to at least 996 (if not a more practical period of 5 years between 994-999) was the one during which Raja Raja I was fully pre-occupied with his southern conquests. Further there is no evidence of any friendship between the Chalukyas led by Tailapa-II and the Pandyas/Cheras (because Pandyas and Cheras were definitely together mainly because of marital alliance and common interest in Sri Lanka) to commonly fight Raja Raja I that can be a supportive evidence to the existence of a (direct or indirect fight) between Raja Raja I and Tailapa-II. In any case when these very history pagest attest to Raja Raja-I's victory over Pandyas and Cheras followed by conquest of Sri Lanka earning him the sobriquet Mummudi Chola (occupier of three territories), there is no way that either this way Tailapa-II either crossed swords with Raja Raja I or was either victorious or defeated.... the fact of the matter is that Tailapa-II and Raja Raja I never confronted each other... The reason for this is also very clear:
Tailapa-II, in all fairness was a king who re-gained the Chalukya kingdom (thus far lost and controlled by the Rashtrakutas). He himself was controller of the Tardavadi-1000 province under the Rashtrakutas, surely during the period 965-973, he would have spent considerable amount of time and energy planning and plotting of ways and means to re-establish the Chalukya kingdoms, a task which was made easy with the last few kings of the Rashtrakutas being very weak with frequent rebellions by their feudatories. After Tailapa-II re-established the Chalukya kingdom in 973, surely he would have concentrated (especially considering the fact that he was based in Manyakhet which is extreme north-east of what is modern Karnataka), he would have concentrated in controlling and conquering areas that are immediately concurrent to his territories which would mean parts of South-West A.P., Western Karnataka (also Southern Karnataka) and Southern Maharashtra and parts of Gujarat which was under the control of (probably the) Anhilwad Chalukyas who probably were known as the Solankis and Shetrunjis. He could not have ventured into Chola territory as soon as 992. Further Raja Raja I did not fight any war till 993... also from 994 for at least 2 to 6 years Raja Raja would have been fighting Pandyas, Cheras and the Lankas. In any case, it is also mentioned in the Raja Raja page that he (probably first) invaded Sri Lanka in 993 and would have fought the Cheras and Pandyas during the later years which conquest as brought out earlier would have consumed time for the territories won to be brought under proper administrative control. This once again rules out any war between Tailapa-II and Raja Raja-I. When we consdier that Raja Raja I would have completed the conquest of the Chera/Pandya territories after 'Some years' (i.e. after 994) then he would have been free only between 998-1000 AD. In any case Tailapa-II himself was succeeded by his son Satyashraya in 996 or 997 AD.
Here is my basic attempt is to establish the fact that there was indeed no war between Raja Raja-I and Tailapa-II at least in 992. There is also absolutely no evidence to prove that these two crossed swords between 993-997 AD either. In fact the first known evidence of any war between Chalukyas and Cholas under Raja Raja I was later than AD 1000.
The above are the basis of my opposing what has been written in various history pages by wikipedia. I damn care about any claim of supremacy, real or imagined of either the Cholas or the Chalukyas, one is neither my cousin nor the other my uncle. I hold absolutely no brief, but at the same time when representing history before neutral readers, let us not at least resort to falsification and villification of people who cannot contest their portrayals.
Against these attempts of mine, I have noted Dinesh with utter disgust and dismay that you chose to give a dismissive reply using contemptuous words as under:
- Please keep your patriotism under control. In wiki, we go by what the historans say. We dont write what we think is right.
Don't you think that the writers of rubbish who surely are blind as bats, under the garb of 'history' should be propagating falsehood as has been done under various history pages in this site, are the ones who need to keep their regionalistic jingoism under control and start writing what is actually correct and corraborative rather than foolishly imagining that what they think and do is right and others have no brains or thinking capacity? Let me add, that when two separate pages or chapters on contemporaneous personalities are showing different perspectives, points of view, then it should at least be admitted that there is indeed a different point of view existing or that the exactness of the concerned episode is unverified.
N.Srinivasan Srirangam99 (talk) 06:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
- And now I suggest you watch your language. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a local newspaper where you can abuse other users. You will get the same advice from every senior wikipedian. Thank you. Dineshkannambadi (talk) 12:56, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Reply:
Is there nothing more for you to say (as a Senior Wikipedian) other than instructing people to watch their language? The incorrect and inaccurate content on the page on Tailapa-II was sought to be corrected and changed by me which I backed up with enough reason and evidences from wikipedia's other pages as explained above. No attention is sought to be paid on that and instead what we get are two line answers.
Srirangam99 (talk) 05:12, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Article talk page
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Signature
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Welcome!
Hello, Srirangam99, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}}
before the question. Again, welcome! Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 01:07, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Talk Page comments: Do not create a sub-page
A tag has been placed on Talk:Satyasraya/Comments, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done for the following reason:
Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not meet basic Wikipedia criteria may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as an appropriate article, and if you can indicate why the subject of this article is appropriate, you may contest the tagging. To do this, add {{hangon}}
on the top of the page and leave a note on [[Talk:Talk:Satyasraya/Comments|the article's talk page]] explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would confirm its subject's notability under the guidelines.
For guidelines on specific types of articles, you may want to check out our criteria for biographies, for web sites, for bands, or for companies. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. KNM Talk 15:25, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Satyashraya Concern
Hello. I have read through the post you left on my talk page and I feel I might have a few suggestions to help solve some of the issues about the article. First off, I would like to say that on wikipedia, discussion is key to solving problems. I would recommend that instead of adjusting the content on the page, you address your concerns on the talk page where other editors can discuss and share their input together. If edit warring was to occur, the article could be subjected to page protection or could result in editors being blocked. Both of these results are undesirable, so it is important that discussion, not edit warring occur. Also, if you wish to adjust the current content in the article, it is important that you provide reputable, third-party sources. If you see information that you feel is questionable and does not provide a source, you are welcome to add the {{fact}} template after the sentence in question and request for sources on the talk page. If after discussion occurs you are unable to reach a consensus, you are welcome to make a request for comment or a request for a third opinion. Hopefully this information will aid you. Cheers, Icestorm815 • Talk 20:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
From Anup
Dear Srirangam,
Firstly wish you a Happy New Malayalam and Tamil New Year a bit in advance. I read your piece on my Talk page, and also most of your Talk page here before posting this. Before anything else, I have to tell you that while Wikipedia is a very novel idea and site, there were, are, and will always be people who shall try to post what they 'like' to see than even what they might really see, by either turning a blind eye to the fact or by refuting it. If you view my Contributions, you shall see that I have interest in a variety of topics, including History, both beyond and within Conventional. However I have been in a lot of trouble with some mean, fanatical Sachin Tendulkar fans who are claiming rubbish and lies for their man and they have been reverting my changes despite not authenticating their own claims.
In your case, it seems to be a kind of Chola vs Chalukya and Pallava vs Chalukya thing. The best I can do is make the changes for you, I can formulate the language if you want, but please keep in mind that Wikipedia wants sources, and valid ones at that. So please supply the correct articles's addresses on the Net along with what you claim. That is the best I can do in this regard. Also I usually cannot log into Wiki other than on Friday or Saturday night (I am in New York). So I shall not be here till before next week. But you could contact me at arkrishna1@yahoo.com and send me the points you claim and links to articles mentioning the same. Please do so after Tuesday, its difficult for me before that.
Regards, Anup. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anup Ramakrishnan (talk • contribs) 03:32, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Response to your query
Please see my message in response to your request here. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 06:46, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry that I can't be your mentor because I don't have too much time for Wikipedia. I'm sure someone else will take you through. The problem with relying purely on epigraphic evidence is that interpreting them would amount to original research or synthesis. We need established scholars writing research papers or books on those instructions and not general websites. Something like the following:
Morrison, Kathleen D. (1997). "Inscriptions as Artifacts: Precolonial South India and the Analysis of Texts". Journal of Archaeological Method and Theory. 4 (3): 219, 224. {{cite journal}}
: |access-date=
requires |url=
(help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (help)
You can add such citations by following the instructions here. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 08:10, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Response to your query
.
Could Sundar do the needful for me pls.
Srirangam99 (talk) 07:30, 24 April 2008 (UTC)