→RfA comments: After being repeatedly warned, you have not changed your behavior. |
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:::You say so, Squeakbox, but the fact is that you are still quite willing to jump into accusations against your fellow contributors that are not supported by the evidence. I confess myself quite disturbed that after being '''repeatedly''' warned about this in the strongest terms you have not changed your behaviour. [[User:Morven|Matthew Brown (Morven)]] ([[User talk:Morven|T]]:[[Special:Contributions/Morven|C]]) 04:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC) |
:::You say so, Squeakbox, but the fact is that you are still quite willing to jump into accusations against your fellow contributors that are not supported by the evidence. I confess myself quite disturbed that after being '''repeatedly''' warned about this in the strongest terms you have not changed your behaviour. [[User:Morven|Matthew Brown (Morven)]] ([[User talk:Morven|T]]:[[Special:Contributions/Morven|C]]) 04:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC) |
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==Your edit to [[Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators]]== |
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Just a reminder that it's disruptive to delete Wiki ''guidelines and policies'' based on POV or [[WP:IDONTLIKEIT]], especially those intended for administrators. As it says on the page itself, '''When editing this page, please ensure that your revision reflects consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on this page's talk page.''' You can't just delete a policy point because you personally disagree with it. Since you're neither an admin nor do you have any demonstrated consensus on the Talk Page for your change, and you've been on Wiki long enough to know how policies and guidelines here are developed, you must know this edit was completely out of line. [[User:DanielEng|DanielEng]] 04:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC) |
Revision as of 04:34, 21 August 2007
If you want to find some historical talk please go here and use Ctrl F but be warned its a huge archive page and may mess with your web browser. Hurricane Dean has just arrived so if the power is switched off I may not be around for a few days but hope that wont happen. Lots of rain!
This user is not an administrator on the English Wikipedia. (verify) |
Great comment on Farenhorst's talkpage
I have your edits on my watch list, in case you haven't noticed, I hope you don't mind. Anyway I agree. Pedophiles always try to say that pedophilia is a "sexuality" just like homosexuality. Except a gay man that loves a gay man at 25 will still love him at 85 just like heterosexuals. A person that only loves people till the hit puberty is not really in love with them. It would be like me saying hat I love a women but once she hits 30 I am no longer attracted to her. (of course at least she is able to make an adult decision about me) but still I would not find this love but only a sad version of lust. Jmm6f488 05:36, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
"retailiate"
FYI, User:XavierVE chose that word you changed here "retaliate". You can actually verify that in both the edit history and the talk. I was actually opposed to its inclusion (I also thought it was POV). I just thought that was interesting. Vagr4nt 05:39, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yep, here's the diff where User:XavierVE actually contributed the term you regard as "POV" and "total bullshit". I agree with you that "acted" is the better, more neutral term. Vagr4nt 09:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Cool. Yeah my edit summary was OTT unusually so but I thought the edit itself fine. Cheers, SqueakBox 18:11, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
You've made some serious accusations against me. Please back them up with facts so I can refute them, or withdraw them in the interest of civility. I've bolded the words you have used to describe me and my edits so that I can answer the charges, even if no evidence has been presented.
- I (& others) should get my act together and crop the lead photo to your liking. I've refuted this factually & in detail on the article's talkpage. In short, you removed the name of the website from the image, which breaks the chain of ownership (for fair use purposes) and hides the photo's origin from readers of the article.
- We are not an attack site here to attack Berry - I'm not attacking Berry. I'm providing both sides of the story, using reliable sources. If Berry says he does X and a third-party source says he does Y, then both should be reported, per BLP, as long as both are germane to the topic.
- Our task is to write an encyclopedia, it isn't to make statements that harm an individual's reputation - I'm not here to harm anyone. I'm here to tell the truth, as established by sources, per policy. Do the biographies in Encyclopædia Britannica omit statements that harm an individual's reputation? Of course not. Wikipedia biographies should not be feel-good exercises for their subjects. Further, your assertion doesn't stand up when tested against some of the most highly contentious biographies on the project, where, presumably, any change is watched by many eyeballs. To wit:
- George W. Bush "was arrested for driving under the influence of alcohol."
- Josef Stalin's "ongoing campaigns of political repression are estimated to have cost the lives of millions of people."
- Pope Benedict XVI "was enrolled in the Hitler Youth."
- When were you planning on removing those sourced negative statements, two of which are about living persons, two of which are libel per se, and one of which appears in the lede of its article? Hopefully, you weren't planning to do so, since negative material belongs in biographies just as well as positive.
The recent changes to BLP don't empower us to ignore sourced, factual information just because it doesn't toe the line and agree with Berry's self-serving account. This isn't kindergarten; Not everyone gets a gold star. Berry has done some good things, done some bad things, and had some of both done to him. All of that is part of his story, and all of that should be part of this article. The way the article now stands, people will look at it and reach a biased conclusion. This is thanks to your and Phil Sandifer's actions, well-intentioned as they may be. In your version, we mention Berry's good points but not bad points about the issue for which he became notable. Is that maintaining a neutral point of view, or is that an unintentional form of POV pushing?
I've done a ton of work on this article, beating back the pedophiles and hagiographers alike. For you two to show up together, out of the clear blue sky, and selectively eliminate negative information about Berry is simply beyond the pale. This is an encyclopedia. Pointless scandal-mongering about Berry must be eliminated, but sourced refutation of his self-serving statements is not pointless; Rather, it is the point of policies like NPOV, AUTO, COI, and BLP. Otherwise, we should head right over to the biographies listed above and remove all the sourced negative material there too, so future generations will know that these people have never done anything wrong, unpopular, or controversial. Except that they have, and so has Berry. Check my contributions and you'll find that I've been here all along to improve this encyclopedia, not to attack Justin Berry or harm his reputation. Content disputes are best handled by discussion, consensus, and compromise, not unilateral scorched earth actions.
If you think I'm as bad an editor as you've painted me, then RFC me. Otherwise, please either defend your attacks on me & my work, or withdraw them. --Ssbohio 20:14, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think your comparisions of Berry, who is marginally notable, with public figures such as W.Bush, the Pope and Stalin is plain wrong and we should nott reat him like a public figure. I also fail to see how his making a business allowing people to use the internet while ensuring privacy has anything to do with his anti-pedophile activism and your basic assertion that these 2 are incompatible I find an astonishing piece of original research. Re the pic my concenr is the Mexican employee from McDonalds which IMO is not fair use and particularly to have here face oin this article. Do we have her written permission for this? I think bnnot and that is a poor interpretaion off air use. I was merely following up on Phil's work. I've seen him around as a good editor for the almost 3 years which I have been editing this encyclopedia and I do support his stance re both BLP and pedophilia issues (eg he did the same to child pornography recently). The thing is the public hasd a right to know about negative sides of the Pope and W. Bush even though they are living while Stalin is now a historical figure but Berry is marginally notabvle so just to find bad stuff about him and put it in the article on the grounds of NPOV is not, IMO, acceptable for wikiepdia to be doing, and especially where the justifications for the material's inclusion on NPOV grounds is original research, as I have just outlined. BLP does empower to protect marginally notable people, SqueakBox 20:34, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Oh and by the way I ahve no intention of taking you to Rfc nor can Isee that I have attacked you personally in any way, though I am sorry if you have taken it that way, SqueakBox 20:35, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Your describing me as comparing Berry to the Pope, Josef Stalin, or President Bush is mistaken at best, disingenuous at worst. I made (clearly, I thought) a limited use of those three people to refute your assertion that we must omit statements that harm an individual's reputation. You did not limit this assertion to people who manufactured their own notoriety like Berry. I cited the most incontrovertible examples where your assertion fails to produce encyclopedic content, which is what we're here to do.
- How is it that you describe a published article from a third-party source as original research? Did you read the article? Did you read the other sources? I didn't write the article. I didn't write Berry's commentary on the other sites. The article was researched, written, and published. For backup to that published article, I included references to Berry's own advertising, both on one of the sites he operated and on the auction site where he sold these sites. The allegation of original research does not stand up to even cursory examination. Citing a published source is not original research, by definition. Wikipedia contains the research done by the authors we cite. How is this original research? You've raised the novel claim (that wasn't made in your original rationale) of original research without citing facts, while I've cited my sources showing that the research is not original to me. Further, BLP doesn't say to throw the baby out with the bathwater. If you felt there was OR in that paragraph, you could have deleted something less than the whole thing & still eliminated the OR you perceived.
- You assert that my action is just to find bad stuff about him and put it in the article when I have specifically and explicitly stated how the material is relevant to Berry's current activities as a speaker and Internet safety expert. He has simultaneously told parents of the value of monitoring their children's internet use while at the same time giving those children a way to circumvent monitoring and filtering software, both at home and away. On top of this, he was actually profiting from playing both sides of the issue, first as a public speaker, and second as the operator & salesman of these open proxy sites. Since you assert that I'm just trying to put irrelevant bad stuff about Berry in the article, do you believe I was lying every time I asserted otherwise? If I'm accepted as being truthful, then you necessarily have to admit that my reason why I make an edit is more accurate than yours, since I'm the one who made the edit.
- Now, as to the "public figure" question: What would you call a person who has professional representation and charges a $5,000 honorarium (plus expenses) to give public speeches and presentations, if not a public figure? Berry made himself a public figure, first through his multiple pornography businesses, then through his dealings with Kurt Eichenwald, and now through his work as a paid public speaker. A figure doesn't get a lot more public than one who voluntarily and continually thrusts himself upon the public stage. He's not sitting in his bedroom in Bakersfield anymore.
- I am sympathetic to Justin Berry. His abuse at the hands of his father and other men shocks my conscience. However, it does not drive me to mislead Wikipedia readers by giving them an inaccurate, partial, sanitized version of the story of which even Pollyanna would approve. The article cannot be NPOV if it bases almost everything on how Berry tells his own story. Plenty of other people were there and have been interviewed, a great number by Debbie Nathan for her feature article in Counterpunch. Have you read it? I have it on PDF & would be glad to mail it to you, or it should still be available on-line. Read the sources and you'll see that they support my position on this. I know you're only trying to do what's right, but burying Berry's activities and allowing his self-serving statements to gain the "Wikipedia seal of approval" is no way to write a neutral, factual encyclopedia, which is what we both want. --Ssbohio 22:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi I saw you mention it on the talk page of Ippy. If you want to be a dear, you could help find some sources for the Breathwork and Rebirthing-Breathwork articles.Merkinsmum 02:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'll see what I can do about the rebirthing-breathwork, I was really inot the breathing (but more scepticval of the Orr based philosophy) 88-91, SqueakBox 19:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Random award
Shakti looks like my newest addition, Fluffin. I don't really know how to upload pics though. Anyway, what a lovely cat!:)Merkinsmum 02:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- I would second that award! docboat 03:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Helping to repeal User:XavierVE's ban?
I read a comment from you here: User talk:Swatjester/archive11#Xavier in the talk archives of the moderator who initially banned Xavier for a day. The one he was actually responsible for doing this against was me (although someone has misled people by saying it was someone else). While an insult against this person would be completely unwarranted, I believe that Xavier does legitimately believe his libelous personal attack to be true when used against me. I believe he trusts very much in the competancy of his staff at Perverted-Justice, and they indeed have profiled me as a 'known pedophile' on their 'corporatesexoffenders' wikisposure. My edit in question was in regards to this organization, and believing the entry about me to be true, jumped to the conclusion that I was trying to create an inaccurate wikipedia article out of personal bias. While this isn't true (nor is much of what is said in the wikisposure article on me), I don't think Xavier should be held at fault for jumping to this inclusion. A 24-hour cooldown period was certainly warranted until this was sorted out, but definately not a permanent ban. Swatjester asked that you contact User:Kurykh (the moderator who instated the indefinate ban on Xavier) regarding your thoughts on this. I'm about to go check out his talk page now after writing this, so hopefully you have and I can join in helping you get Xavier unbanned, since his ignorantly insulting me was the thing that apparently ignited this whole debacle. There do seem to be other issues related to this, so I don't feel this alone is at fault for his indefinate ban (something about "stated intent to further disrupt Wikipedia via more frivolous allegations, incivility" according to Kurykh) so I'll look into this before deciding that the ban was a total mistake, but if Xavier legitimately did not believe his allegation was frivolous (even though it was) I don't think he should be punished forever by being banned from Wikipedia. He seems to have been a dedicated editor after all, and once he does realize that I am not a pedophile and that his Wikisposure co-workers have made a mistake, he would have no reason to continue allegating that I am a pedophile or be uncivil. If his account is unblocked, then he would have no further reason to disrupt Wikipedia by making additional accounts or to promote other posters on the Perverted-Justice forums to do so. He should be given this chance to make amends. In the meantime, while his namecalling was unwarranted, the removal of the paragraph I added really wasn't. A tag would have been enough because it could have been fixed up or sourced eventually, but removing it doesn't do any harm. I'll be submitting better sourced information later, but that can be organized off the main page and done on talk pages beforehand. Tyciol 16:58, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
GFDL vs. vandalism
Hi. This is in regards to your comment at Phil Sandifer's talk page (he apparently doesn't want the discussion to continue there so I'll come here...). I found a quick mini-discussion where Deskana (talk · contribs) explained about removing vandalism and how it's bad in regards to GFDL: User talk:Wknight94/Archive 9#Re: GFDL violations. His example pages are where I got the idea that you could not remove vandalism edits unless they were the last edits in the page's history. Of course your scenario goes a step further where there is more serious vandalism and WP:BLP violations in the edit history... —Wknight94 (talk) 20:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
User page deletion???
I am extremely confused by your most recent message on my talk page... I noted that WilyD had fully protected the page User talk:XavierVE, which makes sense because a) the user in question is indefinitely blocked, and b) the user in question made a lot of people angry prior to being blocked. So in other words, the only people who would possibly have an interest in editing the page would be people trying to attack the blocked user.
Similarly, I thought it would make sense to fully protect the page User:XavierVE because, again, the user in question is indefinitely blocked, so therefore there is no one other than an administrator who could legitimately edit the page... XavierVE cannot edit the page because he is indefinitely blocked, and no other non-admin user has legitimate reason to edit the page. The only reason a person would edit the page would be to vandalize it. So therefore it seems logical to me that it should be fully protected.
Perhaps I should have reserved my comments about my personal disdain for XavierVE, as they are not directly relevant to whether the page should be fully protected. You are probably right about that. But your message really confused me... I did not write to WilyD to attack XavierVE, I wrote to WilyD to protect his former user page from abuse! --Jaysweet 23:12, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- You refactored so I think you know what is going on and well done for doing so. I reserve my disdain for the pro-pedophile activists (and the child sexual abusers as well of course though we dont see that directly happening here, at least I hope not and am unaware of anything like that here but very aware of what to do were it occurring here), SqueakBox 23:24, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
RfA comments
Hello. I'm uninvolved in the current RfA of Haemos, but have noticed the recent issues on the page as part of watching RC.
While your personal attack parole has recently ended, it would be wise to assume that this sort of behavior has not been approved of in the intervening year. Specifically, when you're dealing with other human beings, one or two diffs does not make someone pro-paedophile, nor does it give you just reason to accuse someone of such vileness.
I've noticed others have redacted portions of the opinion and would request that you not edit-war over this. While it may well be an important issue on-wiki, it's neither proven to be the case in his situation, nor is it worth dragging someone's name through the mud simply to garner more opposing votes in an RfA.
I appreciate your consideration of the matter. ~Kylu (u|t) 01:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Some trolls
- I am aware of the now out-dated parole (based on a dispute with a user who insulted my wife and eventually got completely removed from the site after the setting up the BlackApe account, the kind of trolling that wouldnt be tolerated in 2007, and the arbcom are certainly aware of my activities. This is an RfA so the normal rules of good faith dont apply as we are trying to figure out good faith and IMO my behaviour has not in any way been disruptive in the RfA nor remotely similar to anything that brought me to arbcom (by one individual who should ahve been troll blocked from the start for squealingPig offensiveness that you cant even begin to compare to any edits I have made, something I am sure the community would endorse. So nothing to look at here, SqueakBox 01:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Anyway given haemo's anti ped declaration i have withdrawn my oppose and struck my original statement, SqueakBox 02:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Edit-conflicted trying to post that statement and its reply here. :)
- Please be aware that Google and other sites mirror and copy our writings here, so when you refer to someone whose real name is listed here, it causes irrevocable associations with those people. I personally abhor linking anyone's real name with any unverified assertations, and even implying something as grotesque as paedophilia with someone's real name could cause them real-life suffering. While I sympathize with your plight at that time, trading personal attacks certainly isn't the way to cause these problems to go away, and furthering that sort of incivility is in fact pointing all of Wikipedia in exactly the direction we don't want to go.
- I'd beg you, a long-time user and certainly aware of the rules of conduct here and of polite society in general, to please keep in mind that what you're doing to others may well be what you objected to having done to you in the past. My apologies that you had to undergo such cruelty in the past and that I was unaware of it at the time, however.
- I certainly hope you (nor anyone else here) has to suffer that sort of indignity.
- I am very aware of BLP issues, indeed some would say I am obsessed by them. Cheers for making contact anyway, SqueakBox 02:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- You say so, Squeakbox, but the fact is that you are still quite willing to jump into accusations against your fellow contributors that are not supported by the evidence. I confess myself quite disturbed that after being repeatedly warned about this in the strongest terms you have not changed your behaviour. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 04:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Your edit to Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators
Just a reminder that it's disruptive to delete Wiki guidelines and policies based on POV or WP:IDONTLIKEIT, especially those intended for administrators. As it says on the page itself, When editing this page, please ensure that your revision reflects consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on this page's talk page. You can't just delete a policy point because you personally disagree with it. Since you're neither an admin nor do you have any demonstrated consensus on the Talk Page for your change, and you've been on Wiki long enough to know how policies and guidelines here are developed, you must know this edit was completely out of line. DanielEng 04:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)