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::::::::::::::::::::::https://imgur.com/undefined [[User:Taluzet|Taluzet]] ([[User talk:Taluzet|talk]]) 18:08, 4 June 2023 (UTC) |
::::::::::::::::::::::https://imgur.com/undefined [[User:Taluzet|Taluzet]] ([[User talk:Taluzet|talk]]) 18:08, 4 June 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::::::::::::The link shows nothing. [[User:Skitash|Skitash]] ([[User talk:Skitash#top|talk]]) 18:09, 4 June 2023 (UTC) |
:::::::::::::::::::::::The link shows nothing. [[User:Skitash|Skitash]] ([[User talk:Skitash#top|talk]]) 18:09, 4 June 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::::::::::::Sorry, here's the link. |
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::::::::::::::::::::::::https://imgur.com/gLcgxVU |
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::::::::::::::::::::::::I reverted your edits and will keep reverting them as you don't seem to be an official figure of wikipedia, I discussed the facts in the talk page, yet you still contradict the sources I give you, Imazighen is not a French invention, respect my people [[User:Taluzet|Taluzet]] ([[User talk:Taluzet|talk]]) 18:11, 4 June 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::I gave a source that recorded all people who use and were attested to use "amazigh" as an ethnonym, not just Riffians, but it seems you didn't read my sources well [[User:Taluzet|Taluzet]] ([[User talk:Taluzet|talk]]) 16:05, 4 June 2023 (UTC) |
::::::I gave a source that recorded all people who use and were attested to use "amazigh" as an ethnonym, not just Riffians, but it seems you didn't read my sources well [[User:Taluzet|Taluzet]] ([[User talk:Taluzet|talk]]) 16:05, 4 June 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::All your sources are unreliable and outdated. [[User:Skitash|Skitash]] ([[User talk:Skitash#top|talk]]) 16:06, 4 June 2023 (UTC) |
:::::::All your sources are unreliable and outdated. [[User:Skitash|Skitash]] ([[User talk:Skitash#top|talk]]) 16:06, 4 June 2023 (UTC) |
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❯❯❯ Raydann(Talk) 05:35, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Guemmar attack moved to draftspace
An article you recently created, Guemmar attack, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more in-depth coverage about the subject itself, with citations from reliable, independent sources in order to show it meets WP:GNG. It should have at least three, to be safe. And please remember that interviews, as primary sources, do not count towards GNG.(?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:
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April 2023
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CS1 error on Umayyad rule in North Africa
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Your work on North Africa
Hi, I love your work, if you are French speaking, could you do the same thing on the French wikipedia? or at least translate the articles you create into French. HanKim20 (talk) 18:54, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- Hello, thank you for your appreciation of my work, I was looking forward to doing so soon. Skitash (talk) 19:27, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
Sources for the use of Amazigh as an autonym
Jane E. Goodman's works seem to be very much only centered on Kabyles, and Algerian Northern Berbers people at best. The rest of the linguistic groups of Northern Berber aswell as Tuaregs all use the ethnonym Amazigh as shown by the sources I shared. Do you still think Moroccan Berbers and Tuaregs don't use varieties of Tamazight to refer to their language? Taluzet (talk) 10:12, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- It's also pretty naive to assume leqbayel is what Kabyles refered to themselves as before Arabic influence, for reasons you know yourself. Taluzet (talk) 10:13, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- What do you think Jane E. Goodman is referring to when she says "these groups..." after mentioning all Berber populations in Morocco, Algeria, Mali and Niger? Skitash (talk) 10:29, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- If she's referring to them all then she's wrong. Modern Imazighen all over Morocco and the Tuareg nation use Amazigh as an autonym. I gave you the sources
- Here's work from the 17th century where the author refers to his language as Tamazight : https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0WDacAW0AUBaPl?format=jpg&name=medium
- It's from Awzal, if you wish to verify his works yourself it's available here https://cinumed.mmsh.univ-aix.fr/collection/?search=&sort=_score&perpage=50&page=1&&page=1&refine%5BFonds%5D%5B%5D=Fonds+Ars%C3%A8ne+Roux+%3A+Manuscrits Taluzet (talk) 12:15, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Tamahaq and Tamajaq are all variants of Tamazight, the same way azul becomes ahul, with the respective sound changes in those dialects Taluzet (talk) 12:16, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Here is a screenshot from page 11 of An Introduction to Tarifiyt Berber https://imgur.com/vXQQcce both Tachlhiyt and Tarifiyt are recent coinages of Arabic origin, while Tamazight is the common term in most of the country Taluzet (talk) 12:26, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- You can not use images as sources. I recommend reviewing the guidelines in WP:Source. The screenshot from An Introduction to Tarifiyt Berber says that Tamazight is widely used, referring to modern usage. Skitash (talk) 13:04, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- I am not using those images as sources in the article, I am showing you personally.
- It literally says "the traditional name of the language is tmazixt", and that "tarifiyt as a linguistic term is a new coinage" Taluzet (talk) 15:18, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- That's not the point. The point is that Berbers did not refer to themselves collectively as Berbers/Amazigh. Your source is specific to the Tarifiyt language. Skitash (talk) 15:23, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- It is the point though, you said "Historically, Berbers did not refer to themselves as Berbers/Amazigh but had their own terms to refer to themselves.", when this is false because most berbers refer to themselves as amazigh, and most groups who don't adopted Arabic ethnonyms for themselves, like Kabyles and Chaouis
- Tuaregs, Chleuh, and Riffians make up 70% of all Tamazight speakers and all refer to their language as variants of 'tamazight', alongside newer Arabic terms for precision. So you'll have to reword your statement if your point really is what you claim it is Taluzet (talk) 16:04, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- You're only making unsourced claims. Skitash (talk) 16:06, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Alright, based on each language's wikipedia page, you get
- ~ 10mil Chleuh/Middle Atlas Tamazight speakers
- ~ 2mil Tarifit speakers
- ~ 1.2mil Tuareg speakers
- 13.2 million
- ~ 3m Kabyle speakers
- ~ 2.1m Chaoui speakers
- ~ 600k Eastern Berber
- ~ 150k Mozabites
- 5.6mil
- Which gets you a rough estimate of 56% of speakers that call their actively call their language Tamazight in the modern day.
- But you know what, just avoid the numbers statement, what is wrong about what I said earlier? Taluzet (talk) 16:18, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Why are you giving me random statistics? I didn't ask for any of this, and I didn't ask for what they call their language in modern day. Skitash (talk) 16:22, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- What are you asking me for then? Why is my edit wrong Taluzet (talk) 16:25, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- I should be the one asking you that because I have no idea what you're arguing about. You deleted sourced content and replaced it with outdated unreliable sources from 1986 and 1872. Skitash (talk) 16:29, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- The first source is reliable and why would it being from 1986 be a problem?
- If you want I'll replace the 1872 source with this one https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/academie9/kabyle
- The other source is a very reliable book from 1997
- The last is also very reliable from 2020 Taluzet (talk) 16:33, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Your source does not prove that Kabyles called themselves Berbers. Skitash (talk) 16:41, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Well, it does prove the noun Amazigh was used in the region as evidenced by toponymy, it's hard to know for sure how Kabyles called themselves before adopting the Arabic ethnonym Kabyle. But it doesn't matter, since most groups use it anyway, that was my point, most groups Taluzet (talk) 16:43, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Your source does not prove that Kabyles called themselves Berbers. Skitash (talk) 16:41, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Also your lone source does not even talk about the word Amazigh, it just says they didn't call themselves Berber and didn't see themselves as one unit, I agree, most didn't even know about the existence of other Berbers, but you can't say they didn't call themselves Amazigh, because I proved they do Taluzet (talk) 16:37, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- It intended to say that Berbers did not have a collective term of self-referral. Skitash (talk) 16:43, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, but you wrote "Historically Berbers did not refer to themselves as Berbers/Amazigh", any normal reader would thence think no Berber natively calls his people Amazigh, which is false, would you mind rewording that? Taluzet (talk) 16:44, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- If that concerns you then we can reword it to "Historically Berbers did not have a collective term of self-referral". Skitash (talk) 16:47, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, but it would be nice to be more precise and say "though the name Amazigh is well attested as an ethnonym all over northern Africa", you can use Kossmann's work for sourcing that Taluzet (talk) 16:48, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- That's not quite accurate. Kossomann's work only says that Tamazight was the traditional name of Tarifiyt. Skitash (talk) 16:53, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Reread the extract I sent you
- https://imgur.com/vXQQcce. Taluzet (talk) 16:59, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- If you are referring to "a term that is widely used, albeit in different forms, among Berber-speaking groups all over North Africa" then this is present tense and has nothing to do with historic usage. Skitash (talk) 17:02, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- What? How is it supposed to be used all over Northern Africa today if it wasn't used historically???
- Even Herodotus documents the word "Mazic", Ibn Khaldoun uses "Mazigh", it's a very well attested word both historically and in the present, even more in the past than today
- Please read the source I sent you here https://journals.openedition.org/encyclopedieberbere/2465
- It is disrespectful to the very respected berberologist Salma Chaker to say it's an unreliable source Taluzet (talk) 17:09, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- The term Imazighen was introduced by Berber nationalists in the 20th century to counter the image that they were a collection of diverse tribes.[1] This could explain its modern usage. Mazic or Mazigh is not necessarily the same as Amazigh but you can add that Herodotus and Ibn Khaldun referred to them as these similar terms. Skitash (talk) 17:28, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Ah, now I understand your motives.
- Here's Awzal, an author writing in Tamazight, from the 17th-17th century, refering to "imazighen" in his book Bahr Ad-Dumu3
- https://imgur.com/undefined Taluzet (talk) 18:08, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- The link shows nothing. Skitash (talk) 18:09, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry, here's the link.
- https://imgur.com/gLcgxVU
- I reverted your edits and will keep reverting them as you don't seem to be an official figure of wikipedia, I discussed the facts in the talk page, yet you still contradict the sources I give you, Imazighen is not a French invention, respect my people Taluzet (talk) 18:11, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- The link shows nothing. Skitash (talk) 18:09, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- The term Imazighen was introduced by Berber nationalists in the 20th century to counter the image that they were a collection of diverse tribes.[1] This could explain its modern usage. Mazic or Mazigh is not necessarily the same as Amazigh but you can add that Herodotus and Ibn Khaldun referred to them as these similar terms. Skitash (talk) 17:28, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- If you are referring to "a term that is widely used, albeit in different forms, among Berber-speaking groups all over North Africa" then this is present tense and has nothing to do with historic usage. Skitash (talk) 17:02, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- That's not quite accurate. Kossomann's work only says that Tamazight was the traditional name of Tarifiyt. Skitash (talk) 16:53, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, but it would be nice to be more precise and say "though the name Amazigh is well attested as an ethnonym all over northern Africa", you can use Kossmann's work for sourcing that Taluzet (talk) 16:48, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- If that concerns you then we can reword it to "Historically Berbers did not have a collective term of self-referral". Skitash (talk) 16:47, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, but you wrote "Historically Berbers did not refer to themselves as Berbers/Amazigh", any normal reader would thence think no Berber natively calls his people Amazigh, which is false, would you mind rewording that? Taluzet (talk) 16:44, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- It intended to say that Berbers did not have a collective term of self-referral. Skitash (talk) 16:43, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- I should be the one asking you that because I have no idea what you're arguing about. You deleted sourced content and replaced it with outdated unreliable sources from 1986 and 1872. Skitash (talk) 16:29, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- What are you asking me for then? Why is my edit wrong Taluzet (talk) 16:25, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Why are you giving me random statistics? I didn't ask for any of this, and I didn't ask for what they call their language in modern day. Skitash (talk) 16:22, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- You're only making unsourced claims. Skitash (talk) 16:06, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- I gave a source that recorded all people who use and were attested to use "amazigh" as an ethnonym, not just Riffians, but it seems you didn't read my sources well Taluzet (talk) 16:05, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- That's not the point. The point is that Berbers did not refer to themselves collectively as Berbers/Amazigh. Your source is specific to the Tarifiyt language. Skitash (talk) 15:23, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- You can not use images as sources. I recommend reviewing the guidelines in WP:Source. The screenshot from An Introduction to Tarifiyt Berber says that Tamazight is widely used, referring to modern usage. Skitash (talk) 13:04, 4 June 2023 (UTC)