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:::Even dogs must know that edit warring behaviour can be identified prior to a bright-line 3RR violation. [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 17:20, 6 November 2022 (UTC) |
:::Even dogs must know that edit warring behaviour can be identified prior to a bright-line 3RR violation. [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 17:20, 6 November 2022 (UTC) |
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::::We are not talking about 3RR. -[[User:Roxy the dog|'''Roxy''' ]]the [[User talk:Roxy the dog|'''dog''']] 17:23, 6 November 2022 (UTC) |
::::We are not talking about 3RR. -[[User:Roxy the dog|'''Roxy''' ]]the [[User talk:Roxy the dog|'''dog''']] 17:23, 6 November 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::Well, that was what the discussion on your Talk page was about. Accusing living people of cheating without RS evidence of same ''is'' a clear BLP vio, however, and BLP policy applies to Talk pages. It is disappointing that I have to point this out, even to a dog. [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 17:33, 6 November 2022 (UTC) |
Revision as of 17:33, 6 November 2022
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NPP
Following up from User_talk:MaxnaCarta#NPP_of_Health_Liberation_Now!. I've not forgotten, but health is bleh, so not sure if I'm able to do it tonight or tomorrow. Femke (talk) 16:05, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Femke: that's alright! I saw the note at the talk of your top page, and I know how awful that can be. Hopefully the worst eases up again soon :) Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:12, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
- I'm way past the worst fortunately :). Still housebound, but can do most day-to-day activities again.
- Just looked through your patrols. Could you tell me a bit more about your though process behind these reviews? And if you'd do them differently now? (Not saying they're all bad). My goal here is to offer some more mentoring if that is required.
- Femke (talk) 18:15, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
- That's some good news at least!
- Of course. One thread through all of my reviews is that I always have the NPP flowchart to hand. One of the benefits of a multi-monitor setup :)
- Conspiracy of Silence - This was the state of the article at the time I reviewed it. After reading through it, and based solely on the content and citations present, I though that it failed WP:NFILM and WP:NTV. Because it is a television film, it seems to straddle that grey area between those two SNGs. There were four citations, one to IMDB, a YouTube channel (not a video), a GeoCities archival site (Oocities), and the book the film was based on. The IMDB and OOcities sources would ordinarily be considered unreliable, the YouTube channel belongs to one of the lead actors, and the book the film is based upon does not demonstrate notability for the film. I then proceeded to do a Google Search to see if the work had been any significant coverage of the film in reliable sources per WP:NFO; reviews, pieces on the film's development and production, anything attesting to the lasting legacy of the production. Unfortunately despite my best Google-fu, my search came up with a lot of noise. The term "conspiracy of silence" is not uncommon, and just per our Conspiracy of silence disambiguation page, there are several other films and books with the same name. The only source that stood out to me was a CBC News article, on the real world events that lead to the book and film. Unfortunately that source only contains a very brief passing mention of the film (12 words total). Through the Google search there was no sign that the film had won any awards.
- Because I was unable to find any reliable sources on the film, I proceeded down through the remainder of the checklist. Had the film been older than 1991, I would have suspected that some of the information that demonstrated notability would have been unavailable, however I would not have draftified the article as at the time it was 140 days old, and draftify says not to draftify articles older than 90 days. Because of the relative lack of editing activity, and that the article creator had blocked for sockpuppetry, I felt as though a PROD was not likely to be contested. So I proceeded to PROD the article, and leave it unreviewed. I didn't add any other tags as that is not part of the chain leading towards PROD. About a day later another editor contested the PROD, and was able to provide a reliable source (a 1993 obituary that was published in Maclean's) that verified it was winning at least one Gemini Award.
- In terms of what I'd do differently, I will definitely reassess my own internal cut-off date for subjects whose notability was established in the early days of the internet. When evaluating productions like this, that were only available within a specific country or region, I will also expand my tangential searches to try and find any major awards like an Emmy, BAFTA, or Gemini Award, in order to better tailor my searches. Though I am a little hesitant to do so, because IMDB is far from the most reliable of sources, I will also make sure to check if any awards are listed there and use that information to guide searches for reliable sources. Had I found such sources during my search, I would have included them directly into the article, as Matt91486 and Ovinus has done. I would also have tagged the article with {{more citations needed}}, along with a note on the talk page, as while the Maclean's source does verify that the director won the 1993 Gemini Best Director award, it does not verify any of the other awards the film has won.
- Tihomir Stoytchev - This was the state of the article at the time I reviewed it. After reading through it, and based solely on the content and citations present, I thought that the article failed WP:NBASIC, WP:NPOL and WP:GNG. Of the four sources, one is unreliable (AllGov), two are primary (Bulgaria-embassy.org, mfa.bg), and the final one is a stock images site. I carried out a search for sources that would demonstrate notability, where I found several RS with a brief passing mention of Stoytchev, and only one unreliable source (AllGov) with anything that came close to meeting WP:SIGCOV. I then ran the bgwiki version of the article through a translator, in the hopes of finding any Bulgarian language sources that may not have shown up when searching for the Romanisation of Stoytchev's name. Unfortunately the bgwiki version has only two sources, the same mfa.bg source used in the English version, and a Bulgarian blog that doesn't seem to meet the RS criteria. Searching for Stoytchev's name in Bulgarian is complicated, as there is at least one other person with the same name who is also somewhat prominent in Bulgaria.
- As such, I followed the flow chart. As it was a BLP with some references, it did not meet the criteria for BLP PROD. Due to the lack of RS, both in the article and via searches, I felt as though it failed NBASIC. I also felt as though it failed NPOL, as while ambassadors are politicians, not all ambassadors are notable, even if they are an ambassador to a prominent country. Because this is a BLP, I tagged the article with {{more citations needed}} due to the previously mentioned lack of RS, and with {{primary sources}} as two of the four citations are to primary sources. While the article contained useful prose, due to the age it was unsuitable for draftification. Due to the lack of overall editing history, with only three edits total prior to my review, I considered a PROD unlikely to be challenged and PRODed it. The article was then deprodded by one editor, and then subsequently reviewed by another.
- For what I'd do different with this one, I'm not sure to be honest. I still have concerns over the notability of Stoytchev, that weren't addressed in the deprodding or subsequent review by Onel5969. Were I not feeling somewhat less confident in my interpretations of the relevant SNGs, per the discussion on MaxnaCarta's talk page over NCORP, I would still be considering taking this to an AfD. After this is all over, I think I will ask Onel5969 why they felt as though the article met GNG and/or the relevant SNGs.
- River Medway - This was the state of the article at the time I reviewed it. After reading through the article, and based on the content and citations present, I though that the article met WP:NBASIC, and additionally may meet WP:ENTERTAINER#1 in the future. The second KentOnline is sufficiently in-depth and independent of her, as it describes the impact she has had on Drag Race UK fans, and within her local area, so partially fulfils NBASIC. The first KentOnline source, while primarily an interview with Medway, does also contain content from her performance on Drag Race that was both separate from the interview and indepth. The Attitude source is independent of Medway, describing an impactful moment from an episode of Drag Race. The other citations in the article are primarily Q&A style interviews with Medway, and outside of NCORP, based on discussions in the WT:N archives, there doesn't appear to be a community consensus on whether such interviews count towards SIGCOV. (WT:N Archive 64, WT:N Archive 72, WT:N Archive 74). Because of this ambiguity, I'd err on the side of caution that the Q&A interviews do not demonstrate SIGCOV.
- As for ENTERTAINER#1, I don't think it controversial to say that Drag Race UK is notable. The 2022 Official Tour may also be notable, I've not checked to be sure, but I'm not convinced that it's independent enough from the TV Drag Race to count. Death Drop is I think notable via sources I'm aware of, though that article needs a pretty large clean-up to better demonstrate it, and Medway is confirmed to be in the cast for the upcoming UK tour. Her exact significance within the play remains to be confirmed as the tour does not begin until the end of this month, but Medway is one of the five billed performers for the tour, so I would assume her role is likely to be significant. However that is something that she'll meet in the future.
- After I felt as though NBASIC was met, I did a copy-vio search and didn't find anything that concerned me. I made a quick copy-edit cleanup of the article. One source was linked to an AMP version of the site, so I swapped that to the regular version and adjusted the archive to match. I also checked for how we handled pronouns on other notable drag artists, where the consensus is to use the pronouns in our sources. As the sources overwhelmingly used she/her pronouns, I adjusted the article text to match. I also ran the MOSNUM dates script to ensure that the date format was consistent throughout the article and citation, and then marked it as reviewed.
- For what I'd do differently, there's a couple of sources that I've found since the review that could further shore up NBASIC; Kent and Sussex Courier, PinkNews, which I would either have added in or have left a note to add in on the talk page. But aside from that, I'm not sure. I don't think there were any maintenance tags that needed adding. I could have ran IABot to add archives to the citations that were missing them.
- Hope this helps, and sorry if it's all a bit wordy. Figured it's best to go through everything I considered, and the issues I ran into than leave stuff unsaid. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:11, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
- Oh, not sure if you've got my talk page temporarily watched, so courtesy ping @Femke: to let you know I've replied. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:15, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
- Overall this looks good, a few comments (I'm going to try to not be as minimalistic with my responses as usual).
- Conspiracy of silence: Your initial analysis was almost there, and I'm confident with the description of what you'd do differently, you'd reach the correct outcome next time. IMDB will be a good point of departure for if you need to do a further search of awards. It's probably not an efficient use of your time to look for awards if IMDB does not list any. Given the preference of sources 5 years after release in WP:NFILM, I think the cut-off date only needs to pushed a few years into the future.
- A difficult one. With these articles, I always keep in mind the systemic bias on Wikipedia against non-latin scripts topics. A search is difficult, given that neighbouring countries may have a different transliteration of Bulgarian than English. My own search showed a lot of passing mentions, but no significant coverage. (Admission: usually I'm too lazy at this point to continue). Since there is no applicable SNG, but Bulgarian ambassadors to the US are often notable, this article requires a thorought WP:before. If you look at one of their predecessors, Elena Poptodorova, sources are in Bulgarian and Polish. Have you tried searching the name in combination with ambassador in Bulgarian? Or in combination with United States? (DeepL is a better machine translator than Google translate). If the thorough before did not give anything, AfD is the better option out of {PROD, AfD}, given the precedence of having articles for these ambassadors. Another option is to leave it in the hope we have a Bulgarian speaker among our NPP reviewers, while leaving a message to the article creator asking for more sources.
- To be continued. Femke (talk) 07:58, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
- About River Medway: are you aware that to count towards notability sources need to be independent of the topic ánd each other? (see WP:GNG, "Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability.") So the KentOnline source only counts once. That leaves two sources clearly contributing to notability when you did your review, which most people would not consider sufficient. You're analysis about softball Q&A interviews is right; most people consider them non-independent. Entertainment is very far from my usual areas of interest, but it's possible that 'multiple' in ENTERTAINER#1 is interpreted at >2. Only with the sources you found later could notability be established.
- Femke (talk) 17:41, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
- On Stoytchev, I generally use a mixture of both DeepL and Google Translate. I prefer DeepL, as it does give better translations, but it is also missing some languages. Google Translate's URL translation is also helpful for getting a rough idea for how the source article looks in-situ, especially when there are images with captions. I had done a few variations on the search in English and Bulgarian, adding specifiers like "United States" and "ambassador", but didn't find any sources that would help.
- On sources needing to be independent of each other, yup I'm aware of that. I should have made it clearer above that I included them as a logical or. By that I mean, the second or first Kent Online demonstrates SIGCOV, but only count for one source per "multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability".
- Two sources counting towards notability is a difficult one to reconcile with the guidance. The NPP flowchart states "2 or more references to independent, reliable sources", and the text of GNG says "There is no fixed number of sources required since sources vary in quality and depth of coverage, but multiple sources are generally expected". While the flowchart gives an explicit number, and the text of GNG leaves that somewhat up to editor discretion, if there is a general consensus across notability and deletion discussions that two sources are not considered sufficient then perhaps the guidance needs tweaked to accommodate that? I was aware of one brief discussion in 2019 in the WT:NBIO archives, where some folks felt as though two or more was enough, and others felt as though three or more is needed. I know from reading this it could look like I'm trying to wikilawyer this, that's not my intent. If the community consensus is that three or more sources are required, I'm happy to take your word for it, but I would also recommend that that source number floor level needs clarification in the guidance. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
- There is no community consensus on an exact number, and it depends on the sources. If the sources are really good (full chapter, in-depth article), many people are happy with 2. If sources are a bit more bare and/or have a smaller audience (like local sources without much analysis), many people will go with 3 or even more. I think this was a case where three sources were required, but opinions may vary.
- Happy with your answers :). Good luck with the rest of your patrolling, and let me know if you have any questions. Femke (talk) 18:34, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
- I understand! I think my autistic brain prefers structure, guidance that says declarative statements like "X is the minimum required to demonstrate Y", and it always surprises me that in a project with so many neurodiverse editors our guidance has so many grey areas open to interpretation. But there is also freedom and flexibility in that approach too.
- Thanks for taking your time to do this :) Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:45, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
- Overall this looks good, a few comments (I'm going to try to not be as minimalistic with my responses as usual).
Accessibility
Hi there. Having watched and posted to some of the recent drama boards, I've also seen some of your longer posts, and was hoping you'd consider a small change. Right now you're separating long comments into paragraphs by creating new list items for each paragraph, and only signing the last item. That looks fine for a lot of people. But for people using screen readers and similar assistive techniques that interpret the source, it interprets the same as if different people had put a bunch of unsigned posts in a row at the same level, and requires even more work than usual to figure out who's saying what. Would you consider using the {{pb}} template for paragraph breaks within a single list item, as MOS:INDENTMIX ("Multiple paragraphs within list items") suggests? That will look exactly the same for most people, but will be interpreted correctly by assistive devices as one long single comment with your signature at the end. Thanks for considering it. Indignant Flamingo (talk) 03:21, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
- Heya. 99% of the time I'm using the new reply tool when writing comments on talk pages, and I'm just entering a single linebreak whenever I start a new paragraph and let it handle the rest. I suspect this is true for a lot of editors now, and that maybe this is something that should be raised to the reply tool devs to find a workaround that respects screen readers?
- For the remaining 1% of the time where I have to use the old edit source method of replying, I personally find replies that use {{pb}} or similar produce accessibility issues when parsing replies in the diff tool, or in the source editor, as they appear as one long run-on paragraph. While I certainly empathise with folks who use a screen reader, as I use them myself from time to time, I can't see a way to resolve this without trading off one accessibility problem for another, if that makes sense?
- On the whole, and I'm sorry if this sounds dismissive, this strikes me as something better handled by the MediaWiki developers at the backend, as ultimately they can define how Wikitext markup is parsed into HTML. From looking at how talk page comments get parsed in the HTML, each new-line indent before a signature is wrapped inside a
<dd></dd>
pair, with the thread as a whole a bunch of nested<dl></dl>
. I'm not entirely sure if this is in keeping with the W3 accessibility guidelines when it comes to using description lists, though it has been quite a while since I looked at the relevant guidelines. Sideswipe9th (talk) 03:51, 13 October 2022 (UTC) - @Indignant Flamingo: sorry, I dunno if you have my talk page watchlisted, and I forgot to ping. So ping! Sideswipe9th (talk) 03:56, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for the ping. I think the idea behind MOS:INDENTMIX on this point is that general-purpose screen readers have local ways to break up long text (e.g. by pausing every so often when reading back) because that is a common problem across all digital text, but no way to reassemble different unsigned list items into a single talk page comment, which is a condition resulting from (as you note) various MediaWiki idiosyncrasies. But hey, you considered it, that's all I asked for. Take care. Indignant Flamingo (talk) 04:17, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Indignant Flamingo yeah I get the theory behind the screen reader tech. It hasn't changed too much in the last 7/8 years when I was last doing any sort of real webdev work. There is one other issue I ran into when doing the test I discussed below. Unless you configure it, the reply tool defaults to the visual mode, but it throws up an warning/error any time you try to use any Wikitext markup, like the {{pb}} template. I'm not sure how to work around that, and with the reply tool currently being offered by default, I suspect that without some sort of intervention by the MediaWiki developers, any attempt at trying to resolve this would be an exercise in futility. This is because the default tool provided to editors enforces to some extent the bad habits that INDENTMIX want you to avoid. Sideswipe9th (talk) 04:25, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
- It's 5.30am my time now, so I'll maybe poke that Phabricator task and/or the Reply Tool talk page tomorrow afternoon when I wake up and my mind is clear. Sideswipe9th (talk) 04:26, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
- T230683 is probably more what you're looking for if you're trying to make reply-tool work right. Indignant Flamingo (talk) 04:32, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for the ping. I think the idea behind MOS:INDENTMIX on this point is that general-purpose screen readers have local ways to break up long text (e.g. by pausing every so often when reading back) because that is a common problem across all digital text, but no way to reassemble different unsigned list items into a single talk page comment, which is a condition resulting from (as you note) various MediaWiki idiosyncrasies. But hey, you considered it, that's all I asked for. Take care. Indignant Flamingo (talk) 04:17, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
- Just did a test over in my sandbox. The first reply was made using the reply tool in visual mode. The second reply was made using the reply tool in source mode. In both cases, I just typed text and pressed enter at the end of each line. I did not manually enter the colons, which were added by the reply tool itself. The HTML output for that looks...odd to me. The second level reply (comments made in source view) get added as a nested description list within the last description definition entry for the first level reply. Not sure why its parsing that way, but from looking at the source of other talk page discussions it is at least consistent.
- It looks like there's a old, long running Phab ticket on this phab:T6521 issue, dating back to 2006. There was some activity after an RfC in 2019, but it seems otherwise dormant. Might be worth giving it a poke? Sideswipe9th (talk) 04:20, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
New Page Patrol newsletter October 2022
Hello Sideswipe9th,
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Much has happened since the last newsletter over two months ago. The open letter finished with 444 signatures. The letter was sent to several dozen people at the WMF, and we have heard that it is being discussed but there has been no official reply. A related article appears in the current issue of The Signpost. If you haven't seen it, you should, including the readers' comment section.
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Saving the best for last: From a July low of 8,500, the backlog climbed back to 11,000 in August and then reversed in September dropping to below 6,000 and continued falling with the October backlog drive to under 1,000, a level not seen in over four years. Keep in mind that there are 2,000 new articles every week, so the number of reviews is far higher than the backlog reduction. To keep the backlog under a thousand, we have to keep reviewing at about half the recent rate!
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If you have time
I don't have access to a paginated version of this source. If you have time, could you possibly find the page number for the sentence, "ROGD has been critiqued as anti-trans propaganda and bad science." I'd really appreciate if you could, but I understand if you don't have time or don't have access. Newimpartial (talk) 21:44, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Newimpartial: The relevant quote is page 39. From the same page and possibly relevant to the is ROGD Pseudoscientific RFC,
A scientific critique of this study is that it violates principles of research methods by using a pathologizing framework and language. For example, Littman uses terminology (e.g., cluster out-breaks) that promotes the conceptualization of gender dysphoria and identification as trans as a contagious disease or disorder. The aims provided in the article are as follows: “(1) to describe an atypical presentation of gender dysphoria occurring with sudden and rapid onset in adolescents and young adults; and (2) to generate hypotheses about the condition, including the role of social and peer contagion in its development.” Likening trans identities to a disease is in conflict with national and international organizations whose positions clearly state that identifying as trans is not a mental disorder (e.g., the American Psychiatric Association, the World Professional Association for Transgender Health, and the World Health Organization). As such, bias appears to be present from the basic premise of the study and continued through each stage of the research process.
Think it's worth including in the discussion? TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:00, 18 October 2022 (UTC)- Courtesy ping for Newimpartial. Tranarchist, adding/fixing pings is a bit tricky. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:07, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
- @TheTranarchist yes this is very much worth bringing up on the ROGD talk page. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:08, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Newimpartial: full citation is:
- Goldberg, A.E.; Beemyn, G. (2021). "Anti-Trans Theories". The SAGE Encyclopedia of Trans Studies. SAGE Publications. p. 39. doi:10.4135/9781544393858.n12. ISBN 978-1-5443-9384-1.
ROGD has been critiqued as anti-trans propaganda and bad science.
- {{cite book | last=Goldberg | first=A.E. | last2=Beemyn | first2=G. | title=The SAGE Encyclopedia of Trans Studies | publisher=SAGE Publications | year=2021 | isbn=978-1-5443-9384-1 | chapter=Anti-Trans Theories |page=39 |quote=ROGD has been critiqued as anti-trans propaganda and bad science. | doi=10.4135/9781544393858.n12}}
- Goldberg, A.E.; Beemyn, G. (2021). "Anti-Trans Theories". The SAGE Encyclopedia of Trans Studies. SAGE Publications. p. 39. doi:10.4135/9781544393858.n12. ISBN 978-1-5443-9384-1.
- Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:07, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
- theTranarchist if you could add the full citation, page number, and original quotation to my added sentence, I would really appreciate it (or anyone who wants to mess with the parameters, frankly.
- It would also be appropriate to add citations of this source in the article body to add WP:WEIGHT (and potentially nuance) to the criticisms of both Littman's methodology and the ideological deployments (my term, not theirs) for which ROGD is used. But I was after something simpler in my edit, which was to add a sourced "log" of the key objections, beyond "no evidence", which had been largely missing from the lead paragraph. Newimpartial (talk) 00:30, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
GENSEX ARCA
Hi, since you opened the WP:ARCA about WP:ARBGS, may I ask you if anything more came from it? It's still bugging me and I feel if not, it may be reasonable to bring it up with the community like some arbs suggested. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 19:35, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
- Hey @Maddy, apart from the request being closed, nothing more has come from it yet. I was hoping the committee would solve it via a simple motion, to clarify the language, but alas even within that there seems to be a split on A) whether it's needed, and B) whether sexuality is or is not included.
- I'm not sure what the next step should be. The path suggested by KevinL seems like the most straightforward, though I suspect any discussion at AN is likely going to be fraught. If we want to do it, which arguably we should given the ambiguity, we should probably look at past community authorised discretionary sanctions to figure out how to structure the initial request, and figure out how that discussion can feed into the second step where ArbCom amends the existing remedy by motion. What do you think? Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:02, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
- Just butting in, here, but I think any clarification process needs to be made as simple as possible, and it also needs to carry in mind the background. Historically, the GENSEX sanctions emerge from the Gamergate sanctions, which were broadly gender-related, and another sexuality-related sanction. My understanding is that, when they were combined, ArbCom intended to retain all of the previous scope, while adding at the margins. Therefore I think the narrow reading of "GENSEX" as only being about gender identity is simply an error arising from a misreading (or perhaps mis-writing) of the combined sanction. Newimpartial (talk) 22:06, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
- Pretty sure it's a mis-writing. As I said in the ARCA request, if you actually search the GENSEX sanctions for the word "sexuality" it only appears once, in the title. Nowhere else does it directly mention or indirectly illude to sexuality, unless you widely interpret (as Levivich did) sexuality to be a "gender-related dispute or controversy".
- I also went through the history of the current sanctions in a reply, where the sole mention of sexuality was in the repealed sexology case. Sexuality appears there because of an editor who was topic banned from human sexuality, and that standard discretionary sanctions could apply through a broad definition of the word paraphilia (eg, Blanchard). Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:12, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
- I'm fairly certain that in practice, sexuality is included in the sanctions. But there is an ambiguous point a mile wide in the current wording of the sanctions, that allows for determined wikilawyering, even if that is ultimately unsuccessful in most cases. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:16, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
- The thing is, when the discretionary sanctions for the Sexology topic were repealed, the rationale seems to have been that any topic within "Sexology" was by definition covered by what were then the Gamergate sanctions, which refer to "gender-related disputes". So both gender identity issues - which had been within Sexology - and sexuality issues (grounded in but not limited to paraphilias) were seen to be "gender-related", as were for example misogyny-related issues. The "gender" in GENSEX was never limited to, though it has always included, gender identity. Newimpartial (talk) 22:59, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
- If that is the case, and I'll take your word that it is, then it's not clear that it is so. Even from reading through the Sexology case shell, it's not clear that sexuality is considered a gender-related dispute.
- Think about this from the perspective of an editor who wasn't around for the Sexology case. You get a DS/alert because you made an edit about sexuality on a page that's covered under the sanctions. You don't know what this means, so you go and read the linked sanctions page, which aside from the name does not mention sexuality. The only text that is unambiguious is that sanctions apply to
any gender-related dispute or controversy and associated people
. A plain reading of "gender-related dispute" ordinarily means it's a dispute relating to gender (that could be gender identity, or other trans or non-binary content). Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:13, 19 October 2022 (UTC) - I'm not saying you're wrong, you're very likely right. I'm just saying what I said at the case, that the fullness of the scope of the case is unclear based on the text of the case. This is different from the useful ambiguity of a phrase like "broadly construed", in that this ambiguity creates and enables wikilawyering behaviour (similar to that at Maneesh's case) that makes enforcing it more difficult. Not only do you need to prove that an editor's conduct falls below the standards required in a DS topic, you also may need to convince the admin panel that the topic is actually covered under the sanctions. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:18, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
- And I'm not saying that the GENSEX wording is usefully ambiguous, or that everyone knows what I believe to be true. I wouldn't even assume that all of the current Arbs know (or remember) what happened when the sexology DS were rescinded. But reading the link I have above, and especially reading the arb statements that produced the decision, its major premise (that all sexuality controversies fall within gender-related controversies - which was already quite broadly construed) seems clearly expressed. I see the point in a case or at least a motion to clarify the matter, but I think the starting point should be to set out how the issue seems to have been understood at the time Sexology was wrapped up and to ask whether that scope is what ArbCom sees as included now. Newimpartial (talk) 01:59, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
- True, however it feels arbcom punted this one back to the community,
the alternative path […] where the community comes to some consensus and we change the remedy based on that community consensus
. I take that to mean we should have a community discussion on what should be covered rather thanask[ing] whether that scope is what ArbCom sees as included now
. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 21:00, 20 October 2022 (UTC)- That initial question, however, was framed as "should the GENSEX DS cover sexuality, because the language of the sanction isn't clear" and the response can be parsed as either "if you want to change the language, get community consensus" or "if you want to change the scope of the sanctions, get community consensus", without specifying which (or perhaps meaning both).
- The question I would ask is, "were the GENSEX sanctions intended to cover sexuality" (using the Sexology recinding statement as key evidence) and "do they still have that scope". Both of those are questions for ArbCom, not for the community, and I think they need to be answered before any community discussion about changing the language and/or scope of the sanctions. Fundamentally, I care more about what the scope of GENSEX is de jure than I do about the policy language itself. Newimpartial (talk) 21:27, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why you think the initial question was framed as "should the GENSEX DS cover sexuality", when the first question was
Are edits relating to sexuality within the scope of the Gender and sexuality discretionary sanctions, if those edits are in relation to a person who is not trans or non-binary
. Maybe it's an ENGVAR issue, but as I wrote it, and as was interpreted by BDD, Primefac, and KevinL, it was a question on the pre-existing scope of the sanctions and whether or not they covered sexuality. As it stands, it seems like the answer is to paraphrase KevinL, yes but not always. - The problem with leaving the scope de jure is, how do you expect someone to plainly interpret it, in such a way that it prevents disruption? In practice, I believe the sanctions do cover sexuality distinct from gender, but that is not clear per the letter. Even within that clarification request, you can see a broad range of interpretations, ranging from considering disputes about sexuality as being the same as disputes about gender (Levivich and Seren_Dept), to not all sexuality edits are covered under the sanctions (KevinL, MJL), and to the scope can't possibly be that narrow based on practice (Aquillion).
- I believe all three of us are aware of just how contentious considering disputes about sexuality as being the same as disputes about gender are on talk pages. Even leaving aside the low level disruption we regularly see from IP and newly registered accounts, I think I can safely say (without naming them specifically) that there are well established editors we all interact with daily who would be outraged by such. As for not all sexuality edits being covered under the sanctions, this has presented issues in the past where I've gone to serve a DS/alert and warning onto an editor who was being homophobic, but not transphobic.
- That all said, we could file another ARCA, on this question of
were the GENSEX sanctions intended to cover sexuality and do they still have that scope
, using the Sexology case as the framing device. But, I can't help but wonder if that would just get a quick "didn't we just answer this question" response by the committee. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:15, 20 October 2022 (UTC)- Well, I think this at the very least is an opportunity to talk things through publicly before doing anything, which I believe to be a best practice. One of the things I saw as suboptimal about the last filing was the focus on whether
a person is trans or non-binary
might be a boundary in application, which is a strange question to ask IMO no matter how one interprets GENSEX. I understand the temptation to frame GENSEX broadly as an LGBTQ+-related sanction, and then to ask which parts of which letters are actually included, but I think this would be a fundamental mistake. - For one thing, GENSEX (now) and GG (before) have always included gender-related controversies that may have nothing in particular to do with gender identity, so that e.g. MGTOW is subject to discretionary sanctions under GENSEX even though it has not particularly related to gender identity, because the topic is nevertheless gender-related. Similarly, gender identity topics that are not notably about trans and nonbinary people, e.g. Cisgender, are also explicitly under GENSEX sanctions.
- Now, I'm not saying that the previous filing necessarily assumed that GENSEX sanctions were only related to trans and nonbinary identities. But I think that asking whether trans and nonbinary people form a category to whom sexuality sanctions under GENSEX apply - but possibly not for cis people - tends to raise irrelevant questions. As another example, it seems clear to me that the debates about porn and sex work discussed on Radical feminism are understood to be directly within the GENSEX topic, not only by extension based on the discussion of "transgender topics" elsewhere in that article (indeed, IMO the discussion of radical lesbianism there is also within GENSEX, not because it is about lesbians as such but because it is "gender-related" - in fact, I can't readily imagine something more gender-related than political lesbianism).
- So does that begin to set out why I feel that the prior question to ArbCom was not framed in an optimal way? There may indeed be aspects of sexuality that are not "gender-related", such as some aspects of asexuality and possibly some elements of the underlying physiology of sexual reproduction, and maybe things I haven't considered. But asking whether cis people-related topics can be covered or not doesn't seem to me like a relevant question.
- Finally, to make an unfortunately nit-picky point, I still feel that "Are (certain edits) within the scope" of GENSEX sits in an ambigous space between the possible alternative specifications "should they be" and "were they intended to be". While I would have hoped that the arbs would concentrate on the latter question, my reading of that whole conversation was that the former question crept in, and it was that one in particular that they were inclined to defer to the comminity to answer. Newimpartial (talk) 00:11, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- So the focus on whether
a person is trans or non-binary
comes from the text of clarification 1 which lays out an exceptionally narrow scope and states thatGender and sexuality discretionary sanctions apply to any dispute regarding the proper article title, pronoun usage, or other manner of referring to any individual known to be or self-identifying as transgender.
Aquillion focused on this rather strict narrowing of scope in their reply at ARCA, and I do agree that a reading that narrow is very out of step with how the sanctions are actually enforced. - I agree that MGTOW, and related manosphere topics are inherently a gender related dispute. However the transphobic members of those communities will no doubt frame it as a sex related dispute. While you, I, and most admins would not give such arguments the time of day should a case be brought up at AE, nonetheless the current framing of GENSEX covering only gender related disputes gives wikilawyering tendentious editors who disagree with that framing another area they can be disruptive. For example, take the opening argument from Maneesh in his AE case. He tried to wikilawyer the current wording of GENSEX on two points,
individual known to be or self-identifying as transgender
andsystemic bias faced by female editors
, with the intent to prove that the sanctions did not apply to his edits. Thankfully that was only one part of his gish gallop defence, and one that wasn't meaningfully picked up on by any of the other participants. However that potential still exists because of the way the current set of sanctions are worded. - The problem here is that the text at GENSEX gives two definitions. A very broad sanction that applies to
any gender-related dispute or controversy and associated people
, and a very narrow scope that applies tothe proper article title, pronoun usage, or other manner of referring to any individual known to be or self-identifying as transgender
. The broad sanction is problematic because the definition ofgender-related dispute or controversy
is as I've said previously, open to wikilawyering about what exactly disputes are gender-related and which are not. The narrow scope seems to limit that further to onlyindividual[s] known to be or self-identifying as transgender
, which as we've seen in Maneesh's case is also an avenue for wikilawyering. My ideal solution would be one that keeps the sanctions broad, but also makes it clearer in scope as to what they apply to, to prevent that level of wikilawyering. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:00, 21 October 2022 (UTC)- I don't mean to be obtuse, but as far as I can tell, 1. and 2. of that motion were never meant to be exhaustive of the scope of GENSEX, but were always intended to be "guaranteed inclusions" within a wider domain. The idea that 1 (and 2) were intended to be exhaustive seems absurd to me, and the express purpose of the points,
In order to preserve previous clarifications about the scope
, seems clear that it is saying that these topics in particular are gender-related disputes, whether or not they might seem so to particular editors. It doesn't at all imply that the only gender-related disputes concern MOS:GENDERID and the Gender Gap Task Force, which would be a very narrow scope indeed. - Tactically, I see a danger in accepting too much of the premises of a Maneesh-type position by accepting that the GENSEX sanctions cover, e.g., men and women only in relation to their gender identity. Gender is a much broader concept than gender identity, and its domain includes everything from historical discourses on biological essentialism based on "sex" to so called "sex differences in intelligence" to gender critical posturing that "sex" as opposed to gender "matters". These are all situated within gender-related disputes (even though not all relevant articles are tagged - which, as you know, means nothing). I have yet to encounter an arb or admin active in the space who didn't immediately grasp that all these disputes are gender-related, including during Maneesh's attempt to pretend that GENSEX didn't cover edits about "biological sex". So even framing the possibility that there is a set of disputes that might be sex-related but not gender-related (unless they have to do with fairly abstruse issues of genetics and cell biology) strikes me as taking a step backwards from where the community already is. I would wait for some editor to actually make some tiny bit of headway with the pretext that "sex isn't gender-related" before taking that one to the community.
- On the other hand, I do think it is worth clarifying (1) that the domain covered by Sexology at the time it was rescinded is all understood to be "gender-related" (as seems clear from the discussion I linked before) and if necessary (2) that bullets 1 and 2 of GENSEX are examples and not exhaustive. Again, both of these points seem painfully obvious to me, and I don't see anything from the arbs to make me doubt my view, but if you've had trouble making them stick in on-wiki discussions then I think a clarification might be helpful. Perhaps a double-barreled request could ask first whether the issues discussed at Sexology and Gamergate are still covered, and then propose language for a clarifying motion, adding a bullet or two. Newimpartial (talk) 02:32, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- I don't mean to be obtuse, but as far as I can tell, 1. and 2. of that motion were never meant to be exhaustive of the scope of GENSEX, but were always intended to be "guaranteed inclusions" within a wider domain. The idea that 1 (and 2) were intended to be exhaustive seems absurd to me, and the express purpose of the points,
- So the focus on whether
- Well, I think this at the very least is an opportunity to talk things through publicly before doing anything, which I believe to be a best practice. One of the things I saw as suboptimal about the last filing was the focus on whether
- I'm not sure why you think the initial question was framed as "should the GENSEX DS cover sexuality", when the first question was
- True, however it feels arbcom punted this one back to the community,
- And I'm not saying that the GENSEX wording is usefully ambiguous, or that everyone knows what I believe to be true. I wouldn't even assume that all of the current Arbs know (or remember) what happened when the sexology DS were rescinded. But reading the link I have above, and especially reading the arb statements that produced the decision, its major premise (that all sexuality controversies fall within gender-related controversies - which was already quite broadly construed) seems clearly expressed. I see the point in a case or at least a motion to clarify the matter, but I think the starting point should be to set out how the issue seems to have been understood at the time Sexology was wrapped up and to ask whether that scope is what ArbCom sees as included now. Newimpartial (talk) 01:59, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
- The thing is, when the discretionary sanctions for the Sexology topic were repealed, the rationale seems to have been that any topic within "Sexology" was by definition covered by what were then the Gamergate sanctions, which refer to "gender-related disputes". So both gender identity issues - which had been within Sexology - and sexuality issues (grounded in but not limited to paraphilias) were seen to be "gender-related", as were for example misogyny-related issues. The "gender" in GENSEX was never limited to, though it has always included, gender identity. Newimpartial (talk) 22:59, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
- Just butting in, here, but I think any clarification process needs to be made as simple as possible, and it also needs to carry in mind the background. Historically, the GENSEX sanctions emerge from the Gamergate sanctions, which were broadly gender-related, and another sexuality-related sanction. My understanding is that, when they were combined, ArbCom intended to retain all of the previous scope, while adding at the margins. Therefore I think the narrow reading of "GENSEX" as only being about gender identity is simply an error arising from a misreading (or perhaps mis-writing) of the combined sanction. Newimpartial (talk) 22:06, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
I get the fear from such a request providing definitive out clause for a biological essentialist viewpoint, and certainly going into the ARCA request I was afraid that my attempt to strengthen the sanctions by clarifying the scope would actually undermine or somehow lead to a repeal of them (anxiety Sideswipe says "Hiiiiiiiiiii").
As for admins or arbs who wouldn't see that disputes like those we have been talking about are gender-related, I'm fairly certain that based on the related discussion at ANI, there are admins who are at the very least sympathetic to the perspective that discussions such as these are not gender-related. While I don't recognise those admins as being active at AE at the present time, there is the potential that they could be in the future. If that were to happen, it is not something that I think would be easier to counteract in retrospective, and could likely be seen as WP:POINTy were such a perspective to become more commonly accepted.
On a double-barrelled request, that could work, though I still fear the arbs answer will be "didn't we just answer this?" and "why has there been no community discussion on this yet?" Maybe that's something we could float with one or both of the involved clerks though (MJL and firefly) after drafting the question(s) and prior to making a request? I think an ideal outcome to such a request would be so that one didn't have to look at or be intimately familiar with the remedies of the GamerGate or Sexology cases in order to assess the full extent of the scope of the current sanctions. Sideswipe9th (talk) 03:02, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- Well, if the arbs had been idiots and said something like, GENSEX only covers GENDERID, that would have been a major setback, but they weren't idiots - in fact, their comments weren't any more foolish than the filing (any filing that suggests the possibility that "maybe bullet one is restrictive in intent" had to be at least a little bit foolish - the reason I didn't address that point from Maneesh at AE, besides the BLUDGEON issues, was that it was so obviously misconceived).
- I also wouldn't put too much stock in the most recent ANI discussions, because (1) both of them concerned instances where an editor/admin had made less than a handful of comments setting out their "gender critical" views, thus clouding the issues, and (2) they were held at ANI, which is well known to be a cesspit and which better-informed editors and admins know to avoid. I put more stock in the state of opinion at ARE or even at AN, and this is an instance where what matters most is the views of the arbs themselves.
- Finally, I think publicly drafting a question and framing, possibly right here, would be the best course. I am much less worried about this than you are - I would never have been put off templating the Homosexuality POV-warrior a few months ago, for example, because it is obvious to me (and has never been disputed by anyone with authority) that whether the definition of homosexuality sometimes includes gender, or not, is obviously a gender-related dispute, just as a debate over whether a joke is misogynist or not would obviously be a gender-related dispute. The argument that the latter wasn't gender-related because the joke isn't misogynist is an obvious logical fallacy, but a parallel argument in the former case follows exactly the same fallacy. And just to be clear (and for the lurkers), being part of a gender-related dispute does not mean that only one "side" of the dispute can be expressed, in article space or on talk. It simply means that discretionary sanctions standards apply, including the requirement to show basic civility and respect to other participants in these discussions. That shouldn't have to be said, but you have no idea how tired I am of being quoted selectively and out of context. Newimpartial (talk) 03:23, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- "little bit foolish" Heyyy! I resemble that remark >.<
- Heh, you have better faith than I do right now. At the low points of the whole Lourdes affair, I was tempted to just stop editing because it looked like enwiki was on the slope to becoming a trans and non-binary hostile space. I've not reached that point yet, but there are some editors who skirt the acceptable line pretty closely that make it much more difficult than it should be to edit in this area and who definitely contribute to that feeling.
- Mmmm, that homosexuality POV-warrior was one I was hesitant to GENSEX alert, as was another homosexuality SPA about a month back (though about three/four days after I hesitated, I did feel like their later edits put them past the threshold to alert). I don't mind doing a drafting and framing here, or maybe at WP:LGBT? Because of your greater familiarity with the Sexology case, would you be able to do a first draft? Sideswipe9th (talk) 03:36, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- Well, no question there is hostility in the space, and everybody needs to decide for themselves what to do about that. I don't think additional clarity on the GENSEX sanctions will make much difference to the overall environment, one way or another.
- If you can be patient I could post a first draft here - possibly a draft draft - and you could decide where to go from there in terms of redrafting here or moving to the project. Newimpartial (talk) 10:22, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
October 2022
Your edit to stabilize the page on 2022 Russian invasion page did not revert to the control edit which was done on October 13, and not earlier today. If you are restoring a previous version for neutral purposes then the control edit from Oct 13 is here: [1]. I've been spending a large part of today encouraging editors to use the Talk page to discuss this and appeared to be succeeding; if you are restoring to a neutral version then could use use the correct edit from 13 Oct which I've just linked from User:Steven. All editors are welcome to join the Talk page discussion in progress. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:48, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- @ErnestKrause: when I reviewed the situation on that article, and the corresponding talk page discussion, the only edits between October 13 and today that appear to be in dispute are those that you have restored repeatedly against consensus (the section on Darya Dugina). When looking at the composite diff between the edits by Slatersteven and now, and leaving aside some minor housekeeping of wikilinks, the addition of a few citations, and some copy-editing, the two other paragraph additions appear to be non-controversial. As such I will not be reverting the article content to the version from October 13. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:05, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
Early end of the backlog drive
A few days ago, new page patrollers got the backlog to zero. Due to the unprecedented success of the backlog drive, it will be ending early—at the end of 24 October, or in approximately two hours.
Barnstars will be awarded as soon as the coords can tally the results. Streak awards will be allocated based on the first three weeks of the drive, with the last three days being counted as part of week three.
Great work everyone! MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:50, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
Break
Sideswipe9th, could you please take a break. In particular, please do not use WAID's draft space to fight with editors. You know the old saying, "Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig likes it". But I think you need to take a break from the dispute at Pregnancy too. -- Colin°Talk 18:58, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
- Hey Colin. In terms of the main dispute at Pregnancy, I don't think I've much else to say there. I think that it may be symptomatic of potential larger structural issues in the article, which is why the thrust of most of my posts after the first one have been about what I see as the structural issues.
- WAID's sandbox is a difficult one. I don't really have anything more to say there for now, so taking a break for it is easy. But I also don't see a meaningful difference between quoting and linking to a problematic edit summary or talk page contribution, and directly engaging with the editor making the problematic edits to begin with. The problematic content is still problematic either way.
- I hope you're doing OK though. I did like your suggestion/invitation for a GA/FA review, if my proposal gets consensus. It seems odd that an article on a core human experience is not flagged as one of our best. I'm always happy to talk more if you are, and feel free to ping me if you think there's something else I can help with :) Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:10, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
NPP Backlog Drive Award
![]() |
The Working Wikipedian's Barnstar |
This award is given to Sideswipe9th for collecting more than 10 points doing reviews and re-reviews, in the October NPP backlog reduction drive. Thank you for your contributions. Zippybonzo | Talk (he|him) 08:43, 30 October 2022 (UTC) |
Updated language around Tennessee to accurately reflect the state laws
Hi Sideswipe,
I wanted to provide a little background on the Tennessee edit.
I believe the text of the law supports the interpretation that only changing clothes, not simply going to the bathroom, is indecent exposure in Tennessee.
When defining incident exposure, the text (https://www.capitol.tn.gov/Bills/111/Bill/HB1151.pdf) states:
(ii) In a restroom, locker room, dressing room, or shower, any of which are designated for single-sex, multi-person use, and the person is a member of the opposite sex than the sex designated for use: (a) Intentionally: (1) Exposes the person's genitals or buttocks to another; or (2) Engages in sexual contact or sexual penetration as defined in § 39-13-501; and (b) Reasonably expects that the acts will be viewed by another and the acts: (1) Will offend an ordinary viewer; or (2) Are for the purpose of sexual arousal and gratification of the defendant;
Certainly simply using the bathroom is not criminalized under this law as one has a reasonable expectation of privacy in a bathroom stall.
I believe my edit should be restored - please do so if you agree. I will crosspost this to the talk page so it is there too (sorry if that is not the right thing to do - I am new to Wikipedia)
Just to add a little more context about why I think it is important to clarify this - I am trans and I recently had to travel to Tennessee for work. This article was very confusing and made me worried about whether I would be able to safely use the bathroom while there. It took a bit of research to figure out that this law would not effect me simply using the bathroom, it would only apply to changing my clothes. I hope the edit can be made so at this is clearer to people looking for this information in the future. 216.194.103.237 (talk) 15:49, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- Hey. Welcome to my page and Wikipedia!
- Thanks for leaving a message. You're doing the right thing by wanting to discuss it, and don't worry about cross-posting it. Usually the article talk page is the best place to discuss content issues, as it allows for more editors to see and discuss the changed content. So I'll respond to the content issues over there shortly :) Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:56, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Genspect
I don’t understand why you’re saying this isn’t an opinion piece. This by definition the author’s opinion. The author doesn’t cite an example of Genspect spreading misinformation, only states their opinion that Genspect spread misinformation. Maybe they did, but there should be a better source than someone’s opinion.
“Those of us in the trans health field practice gender-affirming, informed consent care in the framework of science-based medicine, as bolstered by the WPATH SOC8. Are the WPATH SOC8 perfect? Far from it. Are they intended to be rigid, immovable, and followed without questions? That would be unscientific. The SOC8 are best practices meant to evolve as science evolves and new research develops and adapts to individual clinical” situations. PerseusMeredith (talk) 02:12, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not Sodeswipe9th, but I'm afraid you don't seem to understand what Wikipedia means by "opinion" pieces; please see WP:RSOPINION. A qualified authority writing within its area of expertise is considered a reliable source in general, whether or not the source were to
cite an example
. Newimpartial (talk) 02:16, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for the link. The article should then quote the author as opposed to making a statement of fact when it is really an opinion.
“When using them, it is best to clearly attribute the opinions in the text to the author and make it clear to the readers that they are reading an opinion.“ PerseusMeredith (talk) 02:28, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- The article does make a statement of fact. In the relevant quotation;
Genspect, who promoted the misinformation against BCH, tried to claim that adolescence lasts until age 25; therefore, BCH does indeed do surgery on adolescents.
the words "tried to claim", "that adolescence", and "lasts until age 25" are linked to two Tweets (tweet 1, tweet 2) and an open letter on Genspect's website that confirms and verifies that statement. The content in all three links is misinformation, as Science Based Medicine explains elsewhere in the article. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:37, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
I saw those. But I don’t see where Genspect says BCH was performing surgery on those under 18? The tweets say 18-25 and the letter doesn’t reference BCH? PerseusMeredith (talk) 02:40, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- Tweet 1 is a quote retweet of a statement made by BCH after the harassment and bomb threats. In BCH's statement they say that they do not preform gender-affirming surgeries on minors, and that any seeking such surgeries must be over the age of 18, and legally an adult before they can consent to the procedure(s). In response to that, Genspect said that 18-25 are still adolescents, and therefore cannot consent to the procedures, and that BCH are conducting surgeries on adolescents. The misinformation stems from the redefinition of adolescence by Genspect to be up to the age of 25. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:49, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
Now I see. Thank you for the explanation. PerseusMeredith (talk) 02:56, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's a tricky one that many wouldn't catch. Basically it boils down to "You're doing the thing I said you're doing, but only if you use my special definition". Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:58, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
You've got mail
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It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.
■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 21:21, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Maddy from Celeste: got it, thanks! Will do a side-by-side with the machine translation later to see how it fared up and if it changes my opinion :) Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:00, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
Discretionary sanctions alerts - biographies of living people, gender and sexuality
I take it that these notices are designed to have me cowering in fear in the corner? I should probably walk away from editing in this early 'cause I certainly don't want to receive more scary banners. Pardon while I go hug my blue blanket. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:02, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- Ummmm...that isn't the intended (or actual) effect of the notices. The WP:ACDS system is designed (!) not to work except among editors who have received prior notification within the prededing year. One may question whether this is an especially helpful feature of the DS system, or not, but it is most definitely a reality all editors share. Newimpartial (talk) 10:07, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
Trump
Howdy. I was going to also 'collapse' the closure, too. PS - You could've waited a few hours & let me do it. GoodDay (talk) 06:22, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- Hallo! I could, but then I wouldn't have been able to practice my "this might be a controversial closure" technique :) Sideswipe9th (talk) 06:23, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
Talk pages
Please never return to mine. Thanks. -Roxy the dog 17:11, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Roxy the dog: Aside from notices required by policy, and any further BLP violations, message acknowledged. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:12, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- No violation occurred in my opinion. you are incorrect. -Roxy the dog 17:17, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- Even dogs must know that edit warring behaviour can be identified prior to a bright-line 3RR violation. Newimpartial (talk) 17:20, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- We are not talking about 3RR. -Roxy the dog 17:23, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- Well, that was what the discussion on your Talk page was about. Accusing living people of cheating without RS evidence of same is a clear BLP vio, however, and BLP policy applies to Talk pages. It is disappointing that I have to point this out, even to a dog. Newimpartial (talk) 17:33, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- We are not talking about 3RR. -Roxy the dog 17:23, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- Even dogs must know that edit warring behaviour can be identified prior to a bright-line 3RR violation. Newimpartial (talk) 17:20, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- No violation occurred in my opinion. you are incorrect. -Roxy the dog 17:17, 6 November 2022 (UTC)