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Hi Seraphimblade. Could you sanity check me on the matter of reporting User:Memills to Bbb23 (an uninvolved sysop patrolling the [[Talk:Men's rights movement/Article probation|Men's rights movement community probation]]). This topic is controversial in that it has a big internet presence but not much support in the 3rd party reliable sources. This frustrates ppl who seem to have sympathies for the subject. Memills who is an Evoluntionary Psychology expert (see [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive795#Spam_attack_on_Evolutionary_psychology]]) has been active in this area and has making claims about censorship of the topic. After a long spell of ABF by Memills (from July 14 to yesterday) I made a report about edits to Talk Men's rights movement, his talk page and other pages. This is my report[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bbb23&oldid=566396978#FYI]. This is Memills's block log[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/block&page=User%3AMemills] and 5 his previous sanctions in the area are listed [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Men%27s_rights_movement/Article_probation#Log_of_sanctions here]. <br>User:Obiwankenobi[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Men%27s_rights_movement&diff=prev&oldid=566048011] and User:Badmintonhist[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Badmintonhist&diff=prev&oldid=566159044][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Men%27s_rights_movement&diff=prev&oldid=566064424] have attacked the imposing admin Bbb23 a number of times for warning Memills, and Memills himself is continuing to [[WP:ASPERSIONS|cast aspersions]] about cabals (using the term multiple editor ownership) rather than reflect on how contra policy and off topic his posts have been[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bbb23&curid=28149184&diff=566364640&oldid=566362854]. And it seems that he has canvassed them to support his claims, for example this[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AObiwankenobi&diff=566366018&oldid=566361833] is his request to Obi-Wan for support and to badmintonhist[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Badmintonhist&diff=prev&oldid=566365555]. <br>It's worth noting that this topic has a long history of agitation for action to "correct" wikipedia's pages from off-wiki (I can send links if necessary by email as they're from black listed websites). And I have real concerns that this needs RFAR but could you sanity check my action here, when you get a chance?--[[User:Cailil|<font color="#999999" size="2">'''Cailil'''</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Cailil|<font color="#999999">'''talk'''</font>]]</sup> 11:29, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
:If Bbb23 is familiar with the case and uninvolved, I certainly don't think you did the wrong thing by reporting it, and one would hope after that many blocks Memills had learned to moderate the tone and work more constructively. Somehow, there's always an evil cabal whenever the decision goes against someone, even when they well deserved it. This editor is essentially accusing Bbb23 of misusing administrative authority to slant the article, and making an accusation of significant misconduct without corresponding evidence is inherently disruptive. So in short, no, I don't think you did anything wrong by reporting it. (S)he looks like a POV pusher to me from the edits cited, and that needs to be dealt with. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 14:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
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Wingard
Back AGAIN! User:Mimmi75. 71.233.227.127 (talk) 16:08, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- BWilkins has blocked them. Also note that obvious block-evading socks can be reported to the vandal noticeboard, and you'll probably get a faster response that way. Seraphimblade Talk to me 18:17, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
SUN Area Technical Institute
User:coffee_ninja12. Not contesting the hasty judgement of my new page that was speedily deleted, however I spent several days pouring through years of history of our school in old newspaper clippings and school board notes. I had originally scanned and cited all of those documents, but was told explicitly by our director not to make them available online. Many other schools/school districts have a Wikipedia page not unlike the one that I posted. Can you give me a few pointers as to what was wrong with my submission? —Preceding undated comment added 02:12, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
- coffee_ninja12: The page in question (SUN Area Technical Institute) was deleted because it was promotional. The entire article read like a college brochure, complete with a list of programs and even a laundry list of certifications. If another organization has an article like that, that's not acceptable either, but I don't know which one you're referring to.
- Another issue here is that the bulk of references should be secondary sources, that is, sources written by someone not affiliated with or having an interest in the organization. In this article, the "references" were exclusively from the college's own material. An article is not a brochure or press release, and is to be neutral. One of the ways in which we do that is to make sure to mainly use references from people that don't have an interest in the article's subject. If the subject has little or no third-party material from reliable sources written about it, it is not notable and as such not suitable for an article at all.
- I'd also note that it's very difficult to write neutrally and avoid personal knowledge when writing about a subject you're closely affiliated with. (That's nothing against you—I avoid writing about any subject I'm very close to, because I know I couldn't do it!). What you may want to do is prepare a draft in your userspace, and then have another editor look over it for proper sourcing, unreferenced claims, and tone.
- Finally, while it is absolutely not required that references be available online (and your director is probably wise in telling you not to do that, it would likely violate copyright), we do need to know where material came from. Our guidelines on citing sources may be helpful, and include instructions for citing sources which are not available online.
- Let me know if you have any questions on that. If I'm not around, you can also ask any questions you might have here, and someone will give you some advice. Seraphimblade Talk to me 14:23, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
- User:Seraphimblade, thanks so much for the feedback. I will prepare a new draft using the recommendations you provided and submit it to be checked by someone else. Regarding the list of our program offerings, YTI Career Institute for example does list all of their programs. If I provided a list and eliminated the program descriptions, certification/credit info, and the reference to the program's website, do you think that would be considered acceptable? Coffee ninja12 (talk) 16:10, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
Deletion of PAX Programs/ How to reinstate page?
This is my first day using Wikipedia and I didn't realize my post was "live" yet. So sorry for the mistake. I am not advertising PAX Programs but have taken classes. I see how some of the content could have been construed as advertising especially since I posted the classes. I just wanted to get the word out on an interesting organization that has been around for 20 years. (I hadn't had time to quote how Dennis Prager and Alanis Morrisette have verified this content is valid.) (I'm a little green.)
Could you advise me on what I would need to do to put the page back up? I will also read up on rules/regulations so I understand the Wiki processes better.
Thank you,
PAXQueen (talk) 03:01, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
- PAXQueen: Bunch of problems. One is that the article was both editorializing and offtopic, which appeared aimed at "creating need" (in marketese) for the organization. One example:
- "Without a doubt, the past fifty years have yielded important advantages in terms of opportunities and choices for women in many arenas. A result of our cultural change is an expectation that men and women are not only equal, but the same. Most women expect men to demonstrate traditionally feminine qualities, while women have adopted many masculine ways of being, thinking and acting.
- These new expectations and behaviors cause conflict and confusion in all types of relationships. Women want men to be sensitive and emotional while remaining ambitious and protective. On the other hand, many successful, self-sufficient, independent women have been dismayed to discover - and even more reluctant to admit - that they would actually enjoy a good, strong, dependable man. These conflicting desires and expectations have led to the confusion, disappointment and frustration that many men and women have about each other. Longing for peace and satisfaction herself, Alison Armstrong wondered if there was an alternative for all relationships between men and women.
- Through study and real-world application since 1991, Alison Armstrong developed a new way of relating to men from a profound understanding of the fundamental differences between men and women. Over two decades, workshop graduates have proven that men and women can be partners instead of adversaries. By expecting our differences and working with them, we can indeed learn to trust each other, support each other and achieve satisfying relationships."
- That reads like a brochure. Not at all acceptable. An article about an organization is there to provide encyclopedic overview of the organization, not to spend a whole section asserting how very necessary what it does is.
- "PAX's flagship program, Celebrating Men, Satisfying Women® is a weekend educational workshop for women, which transforms the way they relate to men. It facilitates the reconciliation many women are seeking with men and outlines the skills necessary for women to realize powerful, satisfying relationships with all of the men in their lives."
- Zero information about what that actually is, just more glossy-brochure marketese ("flagship", etc.). Also, we don't allow the use of trademark symbols in articles, as they are not required for trademark protection but are often a hallmark of marketing.
- "The company is so beloved that volunteers outnumber employees 50 to 1."
- Included as an example of the blatantly promotional tone. That fact may be true, but presenting it in that way is pure puffery.
- Rather than worrying about "putting the page back up", let's start by seeing if that should happen at all. Has this organization been written about extensively by third-party reliable sources, as is required by our notability guidelines? If it has not, it is not a suitable subject for an article at all. If it has, use and cite those sources and write about what they wrote about, avoiding editorials, puffery, and personal knowledge (while your personal knowledge may be correct, it cannot be verified).
- Let me know if you have any questions. Seraphimblade Talk to me 14:38, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
Thank you so much for your help (especially the last paragraph). This organization has been written about and spoken about (on radio and television) by reliable third party sources. (I'll collect the sources, rewrite and repost.) I really appreciate your taking the time to explain. It makes perfect sense because of the verification issue. PAXQueen (talk) 16:30, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
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Seeking an Unblock
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hi Seraphimblade, I'm posting here to ask you to have a look at my case and consider unblocking. Why you? You are shown in in the Eguor administrators category that says "Eguor administrators promise to offer a fair hearing to editors who present a well-documented case that they've been mishandled in some way." As well, I checked your contributions to make sure you were active. No other reason. I'm posting via IP right now but my account is "Colton Cosmic." I have to post via IP because I've no other way to appeal my block. I was falsely blocked for socking more than a year ago. No evidence was ever presented. I was an happy content editor for years and was totally unprepared for the "administrative world" that confronted me after my block. I didn't know how to smoothly go about responding to a block. To me it was a bunch of people I never even heard of ganging up on me. To them, I guess it may have seemed I was "copping an attitude," but frankly I was insulted to be accused of socking. I am not going to throw a lot of details at you here right now, but if you choose to examine my case (which I think you should if you're an Eguor admin) you can unblock me merely from my talkpage and ask me there, or you might be able to email me. Lastly, don't believe what people at my page say about me without considering the evidence. I am blocked for socking but have never socked, on that you may rely. A single link to introduce you to me would be my first edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Colton_Cosmic&oldid=477070007). Anyhow thanks for reading and I hope you can help. This is Colton Cosmic.
Hi Seraphimblade. You declined my block appeal but you did not hear me out, as Eguor admins are obliged to. If you go back and look you will see why these supposed "avenues of appeal" are closed to me. As well, I regard your calling of me a "sock" as clear imputation of dishonesty. It is falsehood. Do not publicly relate a falsehood about me again. A clearly-identified IP edit is not a sock. You may wheedle as to whatever has been stuffed in WP:SOCK policy but you may not redefine the English language. This is Colton Cosmic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.11.29.156 (talk) 14:15, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
- Note: the above IP has been blocked for fairly obvious reasons. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:43, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
- Indeed, went to do that myself and was apparently beaten to it. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:42, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
- WP:DENY is an essay, Lukeno94. You're only supposed to block on policy, unless you're an administrator with no standards. You two look at my case, indef. blocked no warning/no discussion/no evidence/no truth last May, point me to WP:BASC where my blocker sits and refuses to recuse, not to mention dismisses more than 9 of 10 appeals (literally), and more info here[1], tell me this is all fine with you and you're proud to be a part of this system? I say you're discrediting the project. Seraphim, you're no Eguor admin, and your attack on my integrity entitles me to come back at you: you know I never claimed I didn't block evade, but I did say that anyone calls me sock is a liar[2]. This is Colton Cosmic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.243.61 (talk) 18:29, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not an admin, I didn't block you, nor did I claim to have done so. Your block evasion is ridiculous, and the block of your previous IP should inform you that your contributions are not welcome here. You ARE using sockpuppets, regardless of the fact that you're admitting that they are you. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 18:50, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps it is just knitpicking grammar- but, it wouldn't be sockpuppetry if (s)he is saying they are the IP. There is no intention to deceive or !vote numerous times or evade the 3RR... I'm not getting into if it is block evasion, what I'm saying is it isn't sockpuppetry.Camelbinky (talk) 23:45, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
- Socking is generally considered to be any non-permissible use of an alternate account or anonymous editing. That would include block evasion, but you could call it that for clarity if you prefer. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:47, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
- If I read the above conversation correctly, Colton claims that his editing as this IP has been only to contact you (Seraphimblade) of this situation. If Colton's only editing as an IP is to seek legitimate help in an unblock, then it would not fall under block evasion and therefore not sockpuppetry. WP:Sock puppetry is quite clear it is about deception and motive behind the editing. Without bad faith motives there cant be sock puppetry in this case (if information provided by Colton is truthful about only using this IP to contact you; I have not researched further).Camelbinky (talk) 23:58, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
- The question here is "legitimate". When one is blocked, it is permissible to request an unblock in several different ways, but editing through an IP is not one of them. The most common is use of {{unblock}} on one's talk page. If talk page access is revoked, or it is preferred not to use that method, one may also contact UTRS or BASC. In this case, the editor in question contacted BASC, who agreed to consider an unblock but required certain conditions, which the blocked editor found unacceptable and was not willing to fulfill. That being the case, that editor is not allowed to edit here, including to use IP editing to admin shop. (S)he has the option of changing his or her mind and fulfilling the required conditions, or of discontinuing participation here. A block means that the editor is not permitted to edit here, not just the particular account or IP. Seraphimblade Talk to me 00:16, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
- If I read the above conversation correctly, Colton claims that his editing as this IP has been only to contact you (Seraphimblade) of this situation. If Colton's only editing as an IP is to seek legitimate help in an unblock, then it would not fall under block evasion and therefore not sockpuppetry. WP:Sock puppetry is quite clear it is about deception and motive behind the editing. Without bad faith motives there cant be sock puppetry in this case (if information provided by Colton is truthful about only using this IP to contact you; I have not researched further).Camelbinky (talk) 23:58, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
- Socking is generally considered to be any non-permissible use of an alternate account or anonymous editing. That would include block evasion, but you could call it that for clarity if you prefer. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:47, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
- Seraphimblade, okay I see you did have a bit of a look at my case, thank you for that. BASC's action last year with regards to me was actually Silktork acting on his own while framing his words "Arbcom has carefully considered..." He said I must turn over (to the mailing list) my previous account. I said no, my online privacy concerns like I said, and WP:CLEANSTART specifically says I *don't* have to do that. Much, much later he revealed that he was actually chasing what I've termed "Mr. X," he said secret evidence made him believe me some mysterious sanctioned user. There was no policy to Silktork's "who were you" demand at the time but, a week or so after my appeal was declined, text was added to WP:BASC saying that all who appeal must provide any accounts they had in the last two years, as I call it "the Colton Cosmic rule."
- It's not exactly like you said above. Silktork's "BASC" denial of my appeal did not convert it to an "Arbcom block," and an arb told me that. He also said "BASC and Arbcom do not have a monopoly on block appeals." You criticize me for "admin shopping," but I think that part of my actions is legitimate. I do not spam admins, I plead my case to any I contact one at a time and with unique text, hoping that that someone will finally see the great unfairness. Nihonjoe did, but was hauled in ten minutes to WP:ANI, which is the true "admin shopping" forum. You bring your target there, thirty block-loving admins read the complaint, and the lowest common denominator is going to use his tools.
- As to the terms "sock" and "sockpuppet" everybody knows they require an element of deception[3][4][5]. It's not "any impermissible use" like you said. As well "sock" is constantly used as pejorative and personal attack on Wikipedia. Like "troll" which is the other thing people are calling me now. Thank you Camelblinky for discussing this matter on my behalf. Seraphim and Camelblinky, I am happy to discuss policy with you. I've really read a lot of this stuff. One last subtlety I'd point out is that WP:EVADE does *not* mandate one revert a block evader, it makes it a matter of discretion. For example, what Scott Martin did at Village Pump recently was restore a conversation with my comments because he thought it had merit. Colton Cosmic 11:44, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
- I've already said what I had to say on this matter. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:46, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
- As to the terms "sock" and "sockpuppet" everybody knows they require an element of deception[3][4][5]. It's not "any impermissible use" like you said. As well "sock" is constantly used as pejorative and personal attack on Wikipedia. Like "troll" which is the other thing people are calling me now. Thank you Camelblinky for discussing this matter on my behalf. Seraphim and Camelblinky, I am happy to discuss policy with you. I've really read a lot of this stuff. One last subtlety I'd point out is that WP:EVADE does *not* mandate one revert a block evader, it makes it a matter of discretion. For example, what Scott Martin did at Village Pump recently was restore a conversation with my comments because he thought it had merit. Colton Cosmic 11:44, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
Sanity check
Hi Seraphimblade. Could you sanity check me on the matter of reporting User:Memills to Bbb23 (an uninvolved sysop patrolling the Men's rights movement community probation). This topic is controversial in that it has a big internet presence but not much support in the 3rd party reliable sources. This frustrates ppl who seem to have sympathies for the subject. Memills who is an Evoluntionary Psychology expert (see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive795#Spam_attack_on_Evolutionary_psychology) has been active in this area and has making claims about censorship of the topic. After a long spell of ABF by Memills (from July 14 to yesterday) I made a report about edits to Talk Men's rights movement, his talk page and other pages. This is my report[6]. This is Memills's block log[7] and 5 his previous sanctions in the area are listed here.
User:Obiwankenobi[8] and User:Badmintonhist[9][10] have attacked the imposing admin Bbb23 a number of times for warning Memills, and Memills himself is continuing to cast aspersions about cabals (using the term multiple editor ownership) rather than reflect on how contra policy and off topic his posts have been[11]. And it seems that he has canvassed them to support his claims, for example this[12] is his request to Obi-Wan for support and to badmintonhist[13].
It's worth noting that this topic has a long history of agitation for action to "correct" wikipedia's pages from off-wiki (I can send links if necessary by email as they're from black listed websites). And I have real concerns that this needs RFAR but could you sanity check my action here, when you get a chance?--Cailil talk 11:29, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
- If Bbb23 is familiar with the case and uninvolved, I certainly don't think you did the wrong thing by reporting it, and one would hope after that many blocks Memills had learned to moderate the tone and work more constructively. Somehow, there's always an evil cabal whenever the decision goes against someone, even when they well deserved it. This editor is essentially accusing Bbb23 of misusing administrative authority to slant the article, and making an accusation of significant misconduct without corresponding evidence is inherently disruptive. So in short, no, I don't think you did anything wrong by reporting it. (S)he looks like a POV pusher to me from the edits cited, and that needs to be dealt with. Seraphimblade Talk to me 14:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)