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I hate those pingie-thingies with a passion.
I have arthritis in my fingers, and an essential tremor in my hands; pings create another set of clicks my fingers don't want to deal with. If you know I have a page watchlisted, and you are able to remember my request, please do not ping me to those pages; I understand being pinged to pages I might not be watchlisting. But I much prefer the style of the "olden days" when we used to actually talk to each other on user talk pages.
TPS alert: FAR notifications
Here is a template listing Featured articles (and notification dates and details) for which a Featured article review is needed.
According to the FAR instructions, after waiting five to seven days to see if anyone engages to address the issues, anyone can bring an article to FAR, subject to a) no more than one nomination every two weeks; and b) no more than four nominations on the page at one time, unless permission for more is given by a FAR coordinator.
Since Wikipedia has certainly hundreds (and possibly thousands) of outdated Featured articles, please add this template to your talk page, and nominate articles as you feel comfortable and as they become eligible. Also, if you notify any talk pages of FAs that have fallen below standards, please add the article to this template. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:55, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
Venezuela light star
Defense of information neutrality | |
For not being afraid to get your hands dirty when defending the Neutral point of view and adding a light of truth that is so necessary at the moment in Venezuela. I would like to grant you this humble acknowledgement. --Wilfredor (talk) 16:02, 23 April 2020 (UTC) |
- @Wilfredor: thank you much for such kindness! And my apologies for the long delay in responding, as I've been quite busy elsewhere. Saludos, y que estés bien, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:34, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Np, thanks --Wilfredor (talk) 14:12, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
- Colin, It is better not to know the arepas, I have been trying to stop eating them for years so as not to get fat--Wilfredor (talk) 15:00, 25 May 2020 (UTC)]
- OK, OK, I'll explain it myself! Colin, the way to make arepas is to buy Harina P.A.N. and follow the YouTube! Or this one. You can buy arepas almost everywhere in the world now, because of the Venezuelan diaspora. I like them best filled with chicken avocado, but the easiest fill is perico-- scrambled eggs with garlic, onion, tomato. Very easy. Heat oil, saute some garlic 30 seconds until flavor released, add chopped onion, saute until almost transparent, then add lots of chopped roma tomato, cook until good and flavorful, then add the eggs to scramble. Some people put bell peppers, but I hate bell peppers. Youtube. There you have it-- the entire extent of my culinary skill. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:13, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
- I've ordered some of that flour off of ebay. Should arrive on Saturday. I also see your scrambled eggs are called perico and look much tastier than the plain scrambled eggs I have on toast. I'll try that too. -- Colin°Talk 10:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Colin:, well ? Did ya do it? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:01, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- Yes indeed. And I met Wilfredor on a Commons Photographer's Zoom meetup this evening. The arepas worked out well -- I followed one of the recipes that suggested putting them in the oven afterwards. I made two batches of four each, which is what fitted my frying pan. We also made your Venezuelan scrambled eggs to go inside. It was so filling and the weather so hot I had to have a little siesta afterwards. Of course it tastes a bit of sweetcorn. I think we will be having that again. Thanks for that. I feel a little bit more connected to you guys now. -- Colin°Talk 21:52, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- This was an interesting experience to know you @Colin: I had many emotions because so many years ago that we only knew each other by messages in commons, it was something strange at the same time because I had a fire emergency in my building that forced me to leave (But it was a drill). Btw, the recipe for making arepas from Georgia seems to be very correct, I don't know if you are from Venezuela but I think you know very well how to find a good seasoning. The arepa dough should be well kneaded with enough water and a little touch of salt. They can be thin or fat arepas, it all depends on the tastes. In my case I prefer them quite thin in shape and with the toasted outer layer, so when I open them, I remove the inside and set it aside and start eating the toasted outer layer with the filling. I know it is not the correct way to do it but there is some freedom in the way of eating them. By the way, I have no idea why but Perico means parakeet. Wilfredor 15:14, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
- Wilfredo, I read somewhere that the name perico comes from the green in the bell peppers, being like the green of a parrot. I am so disgusted by what has been allowed to happen in medical editing, that I am thinking of proposing another collaboration for you two! Venezuela Aid Live is pretty much done, except for needing an update to address what happened a year later with the funds raised. I am thinking of finishing that off and taking it to FAC. Any interest ? Colin and Wilfredo, you could watchlist it, wait for me to finish the updates, and then give it a serious going over with an eye to whether it's FAC worthy. Almost all of the sources are news media, but that's the nature of the beast ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:06, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
- I am very very interested, I`m going to take a look at it and maybe I will be a bit slow at the beginning because I am afraid of making a English mistake. It would also be a break from the Spanish Wikipedia, which is controlled by employees of the Maduro administration. --Wilfredor (talk) 13:48, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Colin:, well ? Did ya do it? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:01, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- I've ordered some of that flour off of ebay. Should arrive on Saturday. I also see your scrambled eggs are called perico and look much tastier than the plain scrambled eggs I have on toast. I'll try that too. -- Colin°Talk 10:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
- OK, OK, I'll explain it myself! Colin, the way to make arepas is to buy Harina P.A.N. and follow the YouTube! Or this one. You can buy arepas almost everywhere in the world now, because of the Venezuelan diaspora. I like them best filled with chicken avocado, but the easiest fill is perico-- scrambled eggs with garlic, onion, tomato. Very easy. Heat oil, saute some garlic 30 seconds until flavor released, add chopped onion, saute until almost transparent, then add lots of chopped roma tomato, cook until good and flavorful, then add the eggs to scramble. Some people put bell peppers, but I hate bell peppers. Youtube. There you have it-- the entire extent of my culinary skill. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:13, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Oh, thank goodness...
But it's been at least 6 years since I supported the arb who seems to have no clue. ARGH! --Ealdgyth (talk) 19:05, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- And if you ever figure out what this comment is referring to... let me know. I can't find any comment by DGG on any evidence by Br (I'm assuming BlueRaspberry is meant here, but it's very unclear...) --Ealdgyth (talk) 19:13, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- I suppose I had best be silent on that matter :). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:22, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Geeeeeez, Ealdgyth, 70 articles at FAC! I came to the cabin with every good intention of reviewing like crazy, but dear hubby forgot the charger cord, and I can't do a lot of iPad and the crappy computer I have here ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:10, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'm promoting now... I got called away last weekend to deal with some stuff that had been put off too long with the pandemic, and then while we were out, we loaded another horse trailer and truck load from the storage at the old town. Then that had to be unloaded and sorted into the garage/house/workshop/basement. We're down to the last load, so the hubby and offspring are going back down tomorrow and doing a quick load and turn in the last storage unit ... then we'll be ALL IN ONE PLACE for the first time since 2015, when we started filling storage units in prepping to move. --Ealdgyth (talk) 15:16, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Your hard work is appreciated...
Sandy, I really do hesitate to bring this up but it's been bothering me for some weeks now as I watch you go through the misery that you and Colin have faced over your insistence that Wikipedia use only current and accurate sources for our medical articles. I am tempted to lay out the reasons why I only very seldom edit medical articles any longer but I will not discuss most of it here. However, I will say that eventually one grows tired of having everything they add "adjusted", with the final straw having the term "infant" corrected to read "baby" in one of my edits. But while my work was constantly "adjusted" for accuracy the Osmosis film on breastfeeding which contained several egregious errors was left up for four months after they were pointed out, and only then removed because I again questioned why it was still not removed. [2] I bring this up mainly because an editor at the med pricing discussion said they had found no evidence of difficulties caused by this editor. I am suggesting that perhaps others also know better than to speak out against this editor because it will result in hounding and a lack of support for their complaint. One has to wonder how it was that that film was left up for four months when any number of editors could/should have removed it - that is not the way that this place is supposed to work. That is giving one editor far too much authority. BTW, that awful Osmosis breastfeeding film is currently still advertised on the web with no changes for accuracy. If that doesn't say something about the integrity of the editors of the Osmosis film series I don't know what would. Gandydancer (talk) 17:42, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- Hey there, good to hear from you. On the "misery that [Colin and I] have faced over [our] insistence that Wikipedia use only current and accurate sources", I think it to be actually a much broader problem than that, although I understand what you mean. I would describe it much more simply: I believe policy should be followed (not just sourcing policy), and am concerned that while policy is ignored, guidelines are applied as if they were policy. There is almost no understanding in the current WPMED environment of basic Wikipedia policy, while MEDMOS and MEDRS (guidelines) are misapplied as if they were policy. Obviously, for the people who helped build the Project and write those pages, this is hard to see. I fear that many of our newer medical editors don't have any understanding of WP P&G 101-- that's scary-- and yet use MEDRS to chase off any one they disagree with, in very unsavory ways. The bullying and the cult-like environment became unbearable to anyone with scruples. I understand your broader concern about what is happening to the quality of medical content, but I'm not sure it's wise now-- or will be in the future-- for me to comment on those problems any further; let's just hope the arbs can find a way to address them (although what that might be escapes me). As to "an editor at the med pricing discussion said they had found no evidence of difficulties caused by this editor", the amount of partisan non-evidence-based attempts at ignoring the evidence (which they could not refute) while destroying reputations was quite shocking. This is what has been done to Colin for years. I was a chicken and stayed out. When I came back in, it was done to me, too. I hope and presume the arbs will take some steps to adjust the fact that egregious charges were leveled without evidence, either in the case, or in the future, because that is not supposed to happen. I knew better than to speak up for many years, but thought that recent Arb decisions had lowered the bullying factor in WPMED, so that it would be safe to edit again. I do believe I was shown wrong on that assumption, but I also believe that the good news is that most of the unsavory smears did not come from medical editors. I suspect this did happen because the evidence is overwhelming, and the people who did further this hounding demonstrated the very reason so many of us were forced to stay silent for so long-- watching the attempts to destroy reputations unfold, when they had no evidence-- was shocking. It's good to hear from you! But if you didn't speak up during the case, we have to accept that the arbs can only base their decision on what is on the pages. Best regards, keep that Harbor in order up there! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:23, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- I’m on the road but will try to weigh in here with my pessimism tomorrow...--Ealdgyth (talk) 18:56, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- And there is plenty to be pessimistic about (even for a Pollyanna like me :) Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:57, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- Sandy, you need to understand why I could not speak out about my concerns - why it's hard to have even done it here on your talk page. Even on my own talk page I speak with my best WP friends in code that only we understand. Without documentation everything that I might report is hardly more than gossip. Plus the fact that I actually, all things considered, like Doc James. The most important medical things for me here on Wikipedia are giving good sound information for pregnant and nursing mothers and Doc James totally backs me up in that area. Same thing with Ozzie, who is about the nicest person one could ever meet and who worked cheek to jowl with me on the West Africa Ebola article. I feel that the best I can do is to support you and Colin because I'm no more than a fly or an ant that watches what is going on. If you can explain your position more fully I'm all ears. Best, Gandy Gandydancer (talk) 14:19, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Gandydancer: You are right not to have spoken up: we have seen Colin's reputation destroyed, and now two attempts (unconstrained by evidence) to do the same to me."The road to hell is paved with good intentions;" as I've said several times, we don't have any bad faith WPMED actors here, but the damage to content is there nonetheless, and that's what matters. Ozzie may be nice, but following around an "elite" editor to reinforce their edits is meatpuppetry. And worse, we have a cult-like "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" taking over WPMED (which allowed unnecessary bullying to grow and fester), which is quite alarming. It should be noted that I don't have WikiFriends who behave that way-- you will see none of my people following me to articles or to the AtbCase. One is known by the company they keep, and I don't keep that kind of company. On "gossip" v "documentation", the reason I asked for extended word limits was that I knew the trends and problems would be hard to show without a lot of evidence. I hope there is enough on the case pages now that one doesn't have to worry about the "gossip" factor. (Although a lack of evidence didn't stop two people from throwing accusations at me :) I think this recent example shows what we are all facing in all medical content: condensed a bit (to the point of complete inaccuracy, and obviously for ease of translation), and then the obvious correction made (which does not take a psychiatrist to understand). This sort of careless editing has impacted every article I used to watch. I think my other biggest concern is summarized in the lack of understanding of core policies, and the double standard employed in inserting POV when WPMEDF finds it convenient, while calling non-policy-based editing "innovation". The problem with this "innovation" notion is where this leads if we apply the same logic to fringe topics, quackery, trolls, and POV pushers (as we routinely haul them before ANI to topic ban them per alleged MEDRS breaches). Let's look at the editing behaviors we label as POV-pushing. At morgellons: but it just hasn't been well researched, even if there are no secondary reviews, and no credible evidence that morgellons is different than delusional parasitosis, it's still important and we will discover this in the future (the same logic being applied to the importance of drug pricing, when there are no secondary sources). POV pusher is banned; med editor is called "innovative". MMR Vaccine controversy: But I can google and find two sources that say that vaccines cause autism, so I can put that in the lead (this is the same logic that is applied at Simvastatin, where James literally googled and found two sources that supported his text, although the broader evidence and body of literature does not). Chronic Lyme disease: but I have a patient leaflet that tells me to take months of antibiotics, because that cures what I have (same logic being applied at Prostate cancer suite to use one less than authoritative source to introduce POV, and with the introduction of marginal information to every FA lead I used to monitor, based on patient leaflets like NIH, WHO, etc). None of these examples would fly as we haul people off to ANI to have them banned for pushing quackery, and yet the same behaviors, by the same editors we believe hold a "thin blue line" are being labeled as "innovation". What is being called "innovation" here is routine poor use of sources, policy violations, and POV pushing. Now, my position/question is, how do we get James to slow down and engage, discuss, understand, reflect policy, listen to editors who know the literature in a given field better than he might? The only obvious way I can see to do that is to stop the meat puppetry and coordinated editing and cult-like support of one editor. James is able to edit so fast, so much, everywhere, making many mistakes, because other editors enable that behavior. If we saw these same behaviors in other editors, we would be frequently citing WP:CIR; why are we allowing the number of issues I diff in my Evidence and on the Workshop pages to impact important medical content? Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:49, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Sandy, I really do appreciate that you understand why I did not post at the discussion. Next you mention Ozzie following around an "elite" editor. Yes, we all know very well that no matter what James says Ozzie will be right there to support him. This is so much the norm that I find it hard to believe that anyone gives much weight to Ozzie's approvals. I for one do not question Ozzie's sincerity and take his posts in good faith. As far as the "cult-like behavior", that is why I no longer work on anything connected to medicine. It seems that I was blacklisted long ago. It is however ironic that it seems that we are on opposite sides of what is acceptable to include in some of our articles and what is pseudoscience. For example, I have chronic lyme disease and it really does make me angry when I am told that my symptoms are all in my head. I would like to see current information rather than wait years and years for reviews. And finally, as to James and his cult, I wish I knew what can be done. This is typical corporate behavior and it happens to every endeavor that grows to the size that WP has grown. Sandy, are familiar with Esalen? I spent several months there in the 90s as a "work scholar", as we called ourselves. I remember one conversation with fellow peeps when we were discussing some sort of management issue. I remember that I said, "but this is Esalen!", meaning the Esalen community would be above pettiness, spite, etc. One of the other peeps laughed and said I needed to get the stars out of my eyes and explained to me that every sort of negative corporate behavior existed there as well. What strange circumstances for the life lessons that we all must learn... I doubt that Esalen ever again retrieved the freshness they had in the 60s before they became a money-making endeavor. I do remember sitting by the pool one day and a woman who had been at Esalen way back then said to me in sorrow, "it's gone, it's gone." Gandydancer (talk) 17:05, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Gandydancer: The problem with "nice guy" Ozzie is that, yes, his unqualified supports (that are often based on no understanding or even reading of the underlying issue) ARE being taken seriously, and ARE affecting content-- across the board. I evidenced many examples on the Evidence page where Ozzie shows up to "agree w/Doc James", and James declares two-to-one "consensus", case closed. And it mystifies me that James can so blatantly exempt Dyslexia (which is riddled with errors and poor sources) from MEDRS when it suits him, to see an Ozzie article promoted to GA (with errors constantly mentioned on talk, that are not addressed and are allowed to pass into archives without being addressed-- This Is A Very Bad Thing!) And actually, no, we aren't on different sides of controversial topics: IMO MEDRS is used as a bludgeon to keep out alternate viewpoints. And it is used as a bludgeon in ways never intended by the crafters. And that has made the crafters unhappy. Some med editors are so afraid of even neutrally exploring chronic Lyme or morgellons that they have extended MEDRS as if it can be used to eliminate whatever ... they don't like. And have used it to divide into Good Guys vs. Bad Guys, where the Good Guys get to bully because, don'tchaknow, they are defending a "thin blue line". No, I don't know Esalen, but I do know that MEDRS is being used to support a cult of WPMED in ways that were never intended, and I sometimes wonder if it's not just a power thing, or the fact that it is so much easier for them to REVERT PER MEDRS, and know that the denizens of ANI will call them heroes for holding the line against quackery-- while they promote their own style of quackery. Why are they so afraid of encyclopedic coverage of Chronic Lyme, and yet so unafraid of pushing POV on, for example, prostate cancer? Look at the sloppiness here ... Oh my gosh, we might link to a film about Morgellons, how dreadful ! So they nix it without even seeing it. And no one would have questioned that. The other thing I don't understand is a body of medical editors who seem to have no damn compassion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:21, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Sandy, I had no idea that we were in so much agreement. It is my impression that user:WhatamIdoing shares some of the same feelings. Sandy, you know some years ago I read the notes of when they put MDRS together. I know MastCell was there, WAID was there, and I think Colin was there too. I have long believed that when three or more people get together to discuss something the whole becomes more than the parts and a sort of magic can happen. Reading those pages I was aware that I was in the presence of a sort of a higher level of intelligence and understanding. From these lofty thoughts it is hard to come down to the nitty-gritty realities of where we are today. As I said, for the most part I no longer post on medical articles. I also no longer post on some environmental articles because I am reminded that MDRS now applies to honey bees and other bugs. Which of course is not true (though I can assure you they are working on it). I appreciate your posts and will spend some time in reviewing what you have to say. Best, Gandy Gandydancer (talk) 19:35, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- I think you've got it :) We used to be in the presence of some of WPMED's greatest minds-- like Colin and MastCell. It is a sad loss. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:46, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- I feel like we don't have as many people who care about writing now. To name some examples from the above, one can write that the symptoms of CLD very likely aren't caused by an ongoing Borrelia infection, and still not write that it's all in their heads (because it isn't). One can write that some pesticides kill some insects (duh?) without implying that they kill humans. It's surprising how often the facts aren't really in question, and an accurate statement could be written without too much effort, but instead we get editors trying to make the article reflect their ideology.
- Basically everyone who turns up at Multiple chemical sensitivity pushes for the article to declare either that MCS is widely recognized and definitely proven to be caused entirely by the nasty chemical industry, or that Science Says™ that it's just made-up nonsense and these people just need a good stiff dose of reality. Meanwhile, the actual, everyday healthcare profession (none of whom seem to be interested in Wikipedia's article) has taken an entirely different approach, in which they avoid even speculating on the cause and just try to make it possible for the affected person to be able to live and breathe and function as well as possible (a completely counter-intuitive and shocking goal that no true Wikipedian would ever expect, I know). I believe that gaps like the one between these two polarized sides can be addressed through writing a decent article The symptoms are real. The original cause is unknown. Avoiding triggers is usually helpful. There are appears to be some neurological involvement (so maybe this one is "all in your head", but we could say the same thing about a stroke). It doesn't sound that hard, right? But what I see is mostly just editors kicking out the other guy's POV and stuffing in their own.
- Since this conversation hasn't yet met the minimum standards for pandemic-related content, I will tell you that food-supply disruption has taught me that I very much prefer unsalted natural peanut butter. I had been buying it freshly ground in the store, and didn't know that it was unsalted. Now I need to figure out how to use up a pound of salted creamy natural peanut butter. I'm thinking that it will go in muffins.
- I also offer you the following non-pandemic health trivia: lots of lab test results have been wrong for years. I give you one guess whether these errors have a disproportionate effect on women. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- The MCS thing is precisely what we see with morgellons on Wikipedia. The real professionals stopped worrying about what it was, and started focusing on how to help the people who have "it". What we see on Wikipedia is just plain ole lack of compassion and unprofessional treatment of a medical phenom, no matter what we call it. It makes my brain hurt. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:27, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks Gandydancer for your kind words. I agree with WhatamIdoing totally about caring about writing and Sandy about lack of compassion. I'd add in a lack of respect, editors seem to very quick escalate into accusations of trolling and bad faith editing, or editors who should be working together are edit warring over citation style or some other trivia. But, getting back on topic, WhatamIdoing, I suggest you make satay chicken with the peanut butter. Your Biotin story reminds me of Valproate#History, though that was a very positive discovery. --Colin°Talk 09:20, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- I think you've got it :) We used to be in the presence of some of WPMED's greatest minds-- like Colin and MastCell. It is a sad loss. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:46, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Sandy, I had no idea that we were in so much agreement. It is my impression that user:WhatamIdoing shares some of the same feelings. Sandy, you know some years ago I read the notes of when they put MDRS together. I know MastCell was there, WAID was there, and I think Colin was there too. I have long believed that when three or more people get together to discuss something the whole becomes more than the parts and a sort of magic can happen. Reading those pages I was aware that I was in the presence of a sort of a higher level of intelligence and understanding. From these lofty thoughts it is hard to come down to the nitty-gritty realities of where we are today. As I said, for the most part I no longer post on medical articles. I also no longer post on some environmental articles because I am reminded that MDRS now applies to honey bees and other bugs. Which of course is not true (though I can assure you they are working on it). I appreciate your posts and will spend some time in reviewing what you have to say. Best, Gandy Gandydancer (talk) 19:35, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Gandydancer: The problem with "nice guy" Ozzie is that, yes, his unqualified supports (that are often based on no understanding or even reading of the underlying issue) ARE being taken seriously, and ARE affecting content-- across the board. I evidenced many examples on the Evidence page where Ozzie shows up to "agree w/Doc James", and James declares two-to-one "consensus", case closed. And it mystifies me that James can so blatantly exempt Dyslexia (which is riddled with errors and poor sources) from MEDRS when it suits him, to see an Ozzie article promoted to GA (with errors constantly mentioned on talk, that are not addressed and are allowed to pass into archives without being addressed-- This Is A Very Bad Thing!) And actually, no, we aren't on different sides of controversial topics: IMO MEDRS is used as a bludgeon to keep out alternate viewpoints. And it is used as a bludgeon in ways never intended by the crafters. And that has made the crafters unhappy. Some med editors are so afraid of even neutrally exploring chronic Lyme or morgellons that they have extended MEDRS as if it can be used to eliminate whatever ... they don't like. And have used it to divide into Good Guys vs. Bad Guys, where the Good Guys get to bully because, don'tchaknow, they are defending a "thin blue line". No, I don't know Esalen, but I do know that MEDRS is being used to support a cult of WPMED in ways that were never intended, and I sometimes wonder if it's not just a power thing, or the fact that it is so much easier for them to REVERT PER MEDRS, and know that the denizens of ANI will call them heroes for holding the line against quackery-- while they promote their own style of quackery. Why are they so afraid of encyclopedic coverage of Chronic Lyme, and yet so unafraid of pushing POV on, for example, prostate cancer? Look at the sloppiness here ... Oh my gosh, we might link to a film about Morgellons, how dreadful ! So they nix it without even seeing it. And no one would have questioned that. The other thing I don't understand is a body of medical editors who seem to have no damn compassion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:21, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Sandy, I really do appreciate that you understand why I did not post at the discussion. Next you mention Ozzie following around an "elite" editor. Yes, we all know very well that no matter what James says Ozzie will be right there to support him. This is so much the norm that I find it hard to believe that anyone gives much weight to Ozzie's approvals. I for one do not question Ozzie's sincerity and take his posts in good faith. As far as the "cult-like behavior", that is why I no longer work on anything connected to medicine. It seems that I was blacklisted long ago. It is however ironic that it seems that we are on opposite sides of what is acceptable to include in some of our articles and what is pseudoscience. For example, I have chronic lyme disease and it really does make me angry when I am told that my symptoms are all in my head. I would like to see current information rather than wait years and years for reviews. And finally, as to James and his cult, I wish I knew what can be done. This is typical corporate behavior and it happens to every endeavor that grows to the size that WP has grown. Sandy, are familiar with Esalen? I spent several months there in the 90s as a "work scholar", as we called ourselves. I remember one conversation with fellow peeps when we were discussing some sort of management issue. I remember that I said, "but this is Esalen!", meaning the Esalen community would be above pettiness, spite, etc. One of the other peeps laughed and said I needed to get the stars out of my eyes and explained to me that every sort of negative corporate behavior existed there as well. What strange circumstances for the life lessons that we all must learn... I doubt that Esalen ever again retrieved the freshness they had in the 60s before they became a money-making endeavor. I do remember sitting by the pool one day and a woman who had been at Esalen way back then said to me in sorrow, "it's gone, it's gone." Gandydancer (talk) 17:05, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Gandydancer: You are right not to have spoken up: we have seen Colin's reputation destroyed, and now two attempts (unconstrained by evidence) to do the same to me."The road to hell is paved with good intentions;" as I've said several times, we don't have any bad faith WPMED actors here, but the damage to content is there nonetheless, and that's what matters. Ozzie may be nice, but following around an "elite" editor to reinforce their edits is meatpuppetry. And worse, we have a cult-like "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" taking over WPMED (which allowed unnecessary bullying to grow and fester), which is quite alarming. It should be noted that I don't have WikiFriends who behave that way-- you will see none of my people following me to articles or to the AtbCase. One is known by the company they keep, and I don't keep that kind of company. On "gossip" v "documentation", the reason I asked for extended word limits was that I knew the trends and problems would be hard to show without a lot of evidence. I hope there is enough on the case pages now that one doesn't have to worry about the "gossip" factor. (Although a lack of evidence didn't stop two people from throwing accusations at me :) I think this recent example shows what we are all facing in all medical content: condensed a bit (to the point of complete inaccuracy, and obviously for ease of translation), and then the obvious correction made (which does not take a psychiatrist to understand). This sort of careless editing has impacted every article I used to watch. I think my other biggest concern is summarized in the lack of understanding of core policies, and the double standard employed in inserting POV when WPMEDF finds it convenient, while calling non-policy-based editing "innovation". The problem with this "innovation" notion is where this leads if we apply the same logic to fringe topics, quackery, trolls, and POV pushers (as we routinely haul them before ANI to topic ban them per alleged MEDRS breaches). Let's look at the editing behaviors we label as POV-pushing. At morgellons: but it just hasn't been well researched, even if there are no secondary reviews, and no credible evidence that morgellons is different than delusional parasitosis, it's still important and we will discover this in the future (the same logic being applied to the importance of drug pricing, when there are no secondary sources). POV pusher is banned; med editor is called "innovative". MMR Vaccine controversy: But I can google and find two sources that say that vaccines cause autism, so I can put that in the lead (this is the same logic that is applied at Simvastatin, where James literally googled and found two sources that supported his text, although the broader evidence and body of literature does not). Chronic Lyme disease: but I have a patient leaflet that tells me to take months of antibiotics, because that cures what I have (same logic being applied at Prostate cancer suite to use one less than authoritative source to introduce POV, and with the introduction of marginal information to every FA lead I used to monitor, based on patient leaflets like NIH, WHO, etc). None of these examples would fly as we haul people off to ANI to have them banned for pushing quackery, and yet the same behaviors, by the same editors we believe hold a "thin blue line" are being labeled as "innovation". What is being called "innovation" here is routine poor use of sources, policy violations, and POV pushing. Now, my position/question is, how do we get James to slow down and engage, discuss, understand, reflect policy, listen to editors who know the literature in a given field better than he might? The only obvious way I can see to do that is to stop the meat puppetry and coordinated editing and cult-like support of one editor. James is able to edit so fast, so much, everywhere, making many mistakes, because other editors enable that behavior. If we saw these same behaviors in other editors, we would be frequently citing WP:CIR; why are we allowing the number of issues I diff in my Evidence and on the Workshop pages to impact important medical content? Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:49, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Sandy, you need to understand why I could not speak out about my concerns - why it's hard to have even done it here on your talk page. Even on my own talk page I speak with my best WP friends in code that only we understand. Without documentation everything that I might report is hardly more than gossip. Plus the fact that I actually, all things considered, like Doc James. The most important medical things for me here on Wikipedia are giving good sound information for pregnant and nursing mothers and Doc James totally backs me up in that area. Same thing with Ozzie, who is about the nicest person one could ever meet and who worked cheek to jowl with me on the West Africa Ebola article. I feel that the best I can do is to support you and Colin because I'm no more than a fly or an ant that watches what is going on. If you can explain your position more fully I'm all ears. Best, Gandy Gandydancer (talk) 14:19, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- And there is plenty to be pessimistic about (even for a Pollyanna like me :) Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:57, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- I’m on the road but will try to weigh in here with my pessimism tomorrow...--Ealdgyth (talk) 18:56, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- (talk page stalker) In a similar vein, I was going to suggest bang-bang chicken[3]. Though (inevitably?) looking at our own article on bang bang chicken it appears suspiciously like a hoax! Alexbrn (talk) 11:06, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- Now I just want to step in here and say that y'all need to be nice to Alex for a little while. Someone just slapped him with a totally unprovoked recommendation that he undergo WP:RFA.
- That article on bang bang chicken needs some work. Chicken was a luxury dish before the 20th century because infectious diseases meant that a household couldn't raise enough to eat it every day, not because a labor-rich country couldn't find someone to cut up meat. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:25, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- If I was looking for a good English source on Chinese food, I'd turn to the inestimable Fuchsia Dunlop, whose Szechuan cookery book I treasure. I'm pretty sure bang-bang chicken has nothing to do with the "rhythmic, almost musical quality" of the sound of a chicken being smashed to pieces! Alexbrn (talk) 18:41, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- I would support, and I rarely do! all I could find was someone asking about his naughty bits. Alex, the next time someone asks, you can tell them that you do know someone who raised her two sons in LatinAmerica, where said ritual was uncommon, and both of them whacked it as soon as they turned 18, blaming me for the pain endured. So much for my Earth Mother phase. By the way, y'all carry on with your food stuff, but know that I Don't Do Food! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:54, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- PS, Alex, go review dementia with Lewy bodies at FAC! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:55, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- (talk page stalker) In a similar vein, I was going to suggest bang-bang chicken[3]. Though (inevitably?) looking at our own article on bang bang chicken it appears suspiciously like a hoax! Alexbrn (talk) 11:06, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
Alexbrn, we had some leftover roast chicken so was I inspired by your recipe post. Photo uploaded. A we ate outside in our lockdown garden. It was very tasty, thanks! -- Colin°Talk 07:59, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- Here we are all gathered together and all this talk of food has made me HUNGRY. (Plus, being locked away for so long it seems that I am also starved for friendship.) So I know!, let's have a party! We will honor Sandy, so she need not cook anything since she doesn't know how to cook anyway, but my daughter Jane wants her to choose a menu item from Solorzano's Mexican Restaurant right here in Maine (!)[4]. Plus, I called my daughter Judy in Florida and she wants to offer a tasty veggie tray. I haven't decided what food I will bring though I will bring margaritas for certain. What will you bring? Gandydancer (talk) 14:21, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'm always good for chocolate! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:36, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- Wrapped chocolates seems a bit more pandemic-friendly that a buffet of finger foods and dips. If we are having an international meal, I could bring haggis which is wonderful, but will have to smuggle it into the US because you guys have a ban on imports of the real thing. -- Colin°Talk 16:06, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- One of my Christmas presents was a candy bar made of dark chocolate and almond butter. On the one hand, my waistline needs no further encouragement in its expansionist plans. On the other hand, it's on sale this month. I don't know how this will play out. SandyGeorgia, tell me about your favorite chocolate? The picture you posted is one of the best in that line, I think, but I'd have to do a proper side-by-side taste test to choose between it and their 70%. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:03, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- Not to worry Colin, germs do not grow in Cyberland. Anyway, the idea was not necessarily international - I thought perhaps Sandy would find something that was similar to the wonderful foods she may have eaten in South America at my daughter's cafe. If not, the restaurant could come up with something similar, I am sure. Now as for the haggis, that would be very delicious, but how about saving that for the next party when we could have a real Burns supper? You could read the poem and Sandy, who doesn't cook, could perhaps make the tatties? If she wants to really get into the spirit of things she could perhaps try making some cock-a-leekie soup, which does not sound too difficult? Gosh, now I'm really getting excited about our next party and we haven't even had this one yet... Gandydancer (talk) 20:19, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- Getting into the "spirit of things" on Burns Night involves some of this fine stuff, and Sandy is welcome to buy some for us all if she doesn't feel up to cooking! I am a bit concerned that if we wait that long, when me and Sandy have our indef ban on editing all content related to medicine, broadly construed, then talking about Burns will cause some illiterate admin to spoil the party with their block button.
- I do like a fine chocolate, though I'm also fond of some guilty pleasures like a Wispa or a Flake. There's something about aerated chocolate that tastes good. -- Colin°Talk 08:43, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- Not to worry Colin, germs do not grow in Cyberland. Anyway, the idea was not necessarily international - I thought perhaps Sandy would find something that was similar to the wonderful foods she may have eaten in South America at my daughter's cafe. If not, the restaurant could come up with something similar, I am sure. Now as for the haggis, that would be very delicious, but how about saving that for the next party when we could have a real Burns supper? You could read the poem and Sandy, who doesn't cook, could perhaps make the tatties? If she wants to really get into the spirit of things she could perhaps try making some cock-a-leekie soup, which does not sound too difficult? Gosh, now I'm really getting excited about our next party and we haven't even had this one yet... Gandydancer (talk) 20:19, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- One of my Christmas presents was a candy bar made of dark chocolate and almond butter. On the one hand, my waistline needs no further encouragement in its expansionist plans. On the other hand, it's on sale this month. I don't know how this will play out. SandyGeorgia, tell me about your favorite chocolate? The picture you posted is one of the best in that line, I think, but I'd have to do a proper side-by-side taste test to choose between it and their 70%. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:03, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- Wrapped chocolates seems a bit more pandemic-friendly that a buffet of finger foods and dips. If we are having an international meal, I could bring haggis which is wonderful, but will have to smuggle it into the US because you guys have a ban on imports of the real thing. -- Colin°Talk 16:06, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
Too late in life admittedly, but I have recently got into haricot beans in a big way - so I might bring a simple stew of haricot beans. As my family has observed, it's perfect lockdown food as the recipe I use is prodigiously garlic-y (two whole heads for 500g of beans), but there's no need to worry about getting up-close and personal with strangers afterwards. Also, it's very high-fibre, with all that follows ... Alexbrn (talk) 08:55, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- Cullen skink is another good food for social distancing. I suppose we should be grateful they haven't figured out how to transmit smell over the internet. -- Colin°Talk 10:33, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- Six-hour drive to the cabin, and dear hubby forget the charger cord to the good computer, so here on crap computer. But I have plenty of chocolate. Haggis! Colin, are you Scottish? (So am I.) WAID, there is no such thing as bad chocolate, but I am partial to Italian chocolates (Perugina, Baci). I had the most interesting Vietnamese chocolate once, a gift from a friend, but I can't say what it was because I couldn't read anything on the box. But what a delicacy ... tiny round balls of exquisiteness dusted in cocoa powder. Gandy, food in Argentina was horrible, and in Venezuela, wonderful, but very different from Mexican food-- which I also like. Would type more but this computer has awful touchpad, and I just had to fight to answer FAC queries ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:17, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- OOps, forgot Alex, with his high-fibre reminder of his Big Mess at Colon Cleansing, which led to the infamous Drmies men will be boys thread ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:19, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- What can I say. I like the Bristol sound too. (I like Belgian and Swiss chocolate best--but here in the US, and on my salary, I can't afford to be a connoisseur.) Drmies (talk) 02:16, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- Re "there is no such thing as bad chocolate" where's that "Dubious, discuss" template? I have only been to the US once (Boston business trip) and on someone's office desk was a bowl of little Hershey bars, which they offered around. Yuk. I mean, if you are going to consume fat and sugar in a bar, you should be selective in making the experience worthwhile. Yes, I am Scottish. Were you actually born in Scotland, or claiming via some ancestor? -- Colin°Talk 08:04, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- iPad typing ... Scottish ancestry. We were bad. Have our own castle or some such thing. Hershey’s workS in a pinch. But if you can find no hidden chocolate in the house, then it’s time for Nocello. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:57, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- Colin, when you find outright errors, you're supposed to remove them, not just add the {{dubious}} template. For anyone who doubts the existence of bad chocolate, I submit http://www.salmiyuck.com/search/label/chocolate as undeniable evidence.
- SandyGeorgia (and anyone else), would you do work-me a favor and click https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:SandyGeorgia?dtenable=1#Your_hard_work_is_appreciated... to reply somewhere on this page (and ping me)? I'm very curious whether it's any easier on your fingers. It's a plain old wikitext box. I should go pester the devs to turn on the one with the search feature for adding links. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:21, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
- Oooh. I can reply. However your hyperlink's "..." didn't get included in the URL and so the # section jump didn't work. Let me try this link. Ah, that works. But I'm unable to fix your link for you, since I'm stuck in this little box. Hmm, looking at the preview, I'm not supposed to sign? I can see the advantage, but also then I'll forget to sign if I use the [Edit] box. And I'm old-school and like to put a -- at the end. Colin°Talk 07:53, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
- Now I notice the URL I tried didn't have the magic dtenable=1 parameter. There's only a Reply button, not an Amend or Fix button. So I have to still go back up to the top, click edit, and then find my text to amend it. I've fixed it, but now I've got to sign this, just when I was getting used to not having to sign. -- Colin°Talk 07:57, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, Colin, if you add the usual four tildes, then it will detect the possibility of a duplicate signature and remove the automatic one. I find that this tool is particularly handy in long sections like this one.
- There's talk of an "Amend" or "Fix" button. I don't think it will happen soon, but it will probably happen. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:02, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
- Is there a way of turning this tool on? -- Colin°Talk 17:59, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
- @WhatamIdoing:, whatever you and Colin see, that I am supposed to see, I am not seeing. Clicking on your link or Colin's link takes me only to this page-- I'm not getting it. But since you are working on making editing easier on my arthritic fingers, I'll give you the whole picture. Since the hazardous hammock incident, where a big tree fell on me and tried to make me die, my brain healed, but my body did not. I can type best at my desktop computer, with a real keypad and mouse, but my back cannot handle sitting at the desk for more than an hour at a time. You can tell when I am at my laptop, as I have fewer typos. During the RFC formulation, I had to do so much typing that I could not sit that long, so I used my laptop. On the laptop, the touchpad is what kills my fingers; I eventually get so tired that I make many typos (that plus my essential tremor). The easiest way to browse and read and make short edits is on my iPad, where the touchscreen doesn't hurt my fingers. But I can't type well on the iPad, so I make tons of typos-- and I am unable to figure out why the iPad often won't let me go back and correct typos, so I just post typos and all, knowing I will have to go back and correct them on real computer. Not sure if any of that is useful, but that's my story! And why I am eternally grateful to anyone (like Mdaniels5757 [5]) who fixes my obvious typos for me! For example, last night I made that brief post to the arb case from my iPad. I could see the error, but couldn't backspace to fix it, so left it for the next day. And hope I have to say nothing else about the imminent demise of the Medicine Project. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:01, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
- This only works on desktop, not mobile. (Also, if you're editing via the mobile site, then watch out for talk pages with ===Level 3=== section headings above your comment, as it's been counting the section numbers wrong. Matma Rex, who is on the editing team, is fixing that, but I don't know which WP:THURSDAY it will get here.)
- Do you use keyboard shortcuts to avoid the trackpad?
- Colin, you can't turn it on here yet. Maybe in another week or two, if I'm lucky. If you want to see the next-next thing, then try https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overleg_gebruiker:Whatamidoing_(WMF)?dtvisual=1 Switch to "visual" mode and add a link (⌘K on a Mac, or click the chain-link-looking icon in the little toolbar above the box). ⌘-Return (or its equivalent on whatever desktop OS you're using) will click the big blue button to post your comment. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:04, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
- Now I notice the URL I tried didn't have the magic dtenable=1 parameter. There's only a Reply button, not an Amend or Fix button. So I have to still go back up to the top, click edit, and then find my text to amend it. I've fixed it, but now I've got to sign this, just when I was getting used to not having to sign. -- Colin°Talk 07:57, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
- Oooh. I can reply. However your hyperlink's "..." didn't get included in the URL and so the # section jump didn't work. Let me try this link. Ah, that works. But I'm unable to fix your link for you, since I'm stuck in this little box. Hmm, looking at the preview, I'm not supposed to sign? I can see the advantage, but also then I'll forget to sign if I use the [Edit] box. And I'm old-school and like to put a -- at the end. Colin°Talk 07:53, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
- iPad typing ... Scottish ancestry. We were bad. Have our own castle or some such thing. Hershey’s workS in a pinch. But if you can find no hidden chocolate in the house, then it’s time for Nocello. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:57, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- OOps, forgot Alex, with his high-fibre reminder of his Big Mess at Colon Cleansing, which led to the infamous Drmies men will be boys thread ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:19, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- Six-hour drive to the cabin, and dear hubby forget the charger cord to the good computer, so here on crap computer. But I have plenty of chocolate. Haggis! Colin, are you Scottish? (So am I.) WAID, there is no such thing as bad chocolate, but I am partial to Italian chocolates (Perugina, Baci). I had the most interesting Vietnamese chocolate once, a gift from a friend, but I can't say what it was because I couldn't read anything on the box. But what a delicacy ... tiny round balls of exquisiteness dusted in cocoa powder. Gandy, food in Argentina was horrible, and in Venezuela, wonderful, but very different from Mexican food-- which I also like. Would type more but this computer has awful touchpad, and I just had to fight to answer FAC queries ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:17, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
FA Question
Hi Sandy, I have been working on The Minute Man over the past 5 months and I put it up as a FAC. I was wondering if you, or one of your talk page watchers, could look over it and tell me how far I am from it passing? --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 16:38, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- Guerillero, I would be honored. I will probably get to it tomorrow, as I am on my way to buy a new device ... grrrrrrrrrr ... I just cannot seem to get out from under computer issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:26, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- I am still getting my new computer setup going, but perhaps Ceoil would have a look in here, since it's a sculpture. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:15, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- @SandyGeorgia: Thank you! Best of luck with your computer troubles --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 19:25, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Guerillero: I am out of lost password hell, having reinstated everything now, and working to catch up ... will get there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:59, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for your copy edits and review. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 23:46, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Guerillero: not done yet, but I didn't want to get in Ceoil's way ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:49, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for your copy edits and review. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 23:46, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Guerillero: I am out of lost password hell, having reinstated everything now, and working to catch up ... will get there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:59, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
Upcoming FAC Nomination
Hello SandyGeorgia. I have an upcoming article, Hyborian War, a play-by-mail/email game started in 1985 (that's still active!) now finishing with peer review that I'll repost for its second FA nomination try in about a week. I saw you've reviewed some retro games at FAC like Space Invaders. Would you mind reviewing Hyborian War when its ready? I'm a bit concerned that it may sit unreviewed given it's a niche area. Thank you kindly for your time. Airborne84 (talk) 04:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
Congratulations Sandy, you've earned another FA star. Really good work. -- Colin°Talk 09:51, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
An arbitration case Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Medicine has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:
- Standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all discussions about pharmaceutical drug prices and pricing and for edits adding, changing, or removing pharmaceutical drug prices or pricing from articles. Any uninvolved administrator may apply sanctions as an arbitration enforcement action to users editing in this topic area, after an initial warning.
- CFCF is reminded to avoid casting aspersions and similar conduct in the future.
- Doc James is prohibited from making any edits relating to pharmaceutical drug prices or pricing in the article namespace.
- QuackGuru is indefinitely topic-banned from articles relating to medicine, broadly construed.
For the Arbitration Committee, Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 15:12, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Medicine closed
Sandy, per WP:POLEMIC, please tag that page for WP:U1. Thank you! --Tryptofish (talk) 17:38, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Noting that if you wish to have the page history preserved, per WP:POLEMIC, you can simply replace the contents with {{subst:Courtesy blanked}}. --Mdaniels5757 (talk) 19:17, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- As long as the pagename remains, there would be a significant chance of me taking it to WP:MfD. To keep the page history, there would have to be a valid reason for keeping it, per POLEMIC. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:24, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- WP:POLEMIC is about "Very divisive or offensive material not related to encyclopedia editing", and says that "Material that can be viewed as attacking other editors, including the recording of perceived flaws. The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner." How did we get from diffs that were used in a timely manner and are a permanent record at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Medicine to "attacking other editors"? Why would we delete evidence that is part of an arbcase record, but was not subst'd to that page directly? The only record of the evidence is in userspace, so I don't understand how deleting it is helpful, since it is used there, but is entered as a link not a subst. I can understand courtesy blanking it, but not removing it entirely from a record where it was entered, since the exact text was not all entered there, rather included only as a link. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:44, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- It's an old Arbcom principle first articulated at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change#Evidence sub-pages in user space that one does not keep userspace subpages containing evidence for an Arbcom case. Not sure whether it's still applicable, though. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 18:50, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, Jo-Jo Eumerus; it is odd that none of the arbs or clerks indicated that when specifically asked. The other odd thing is that finding relates to drafts later submittted to evidence, but I submitted the link as the evidence. Communication from the arbs in this case was not stellar, and they were specifically asked this question, and did not indicate the content had to be subst'd to the case pages, or copied to the case pages. I suppose courtesy blanking seems the best option to resolve this dilemma. Do they think every participant knows every old finding (even one 10 years old), and one wonders why they didn't answer the question or address this at the time it was raised on talk. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:57, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- Speaking as a former arb, and clerk, it is important that there be a complete record of every case. Thus it is necessary that all submitted evidence be preserved. (The point of the "principle" linked to above was to deal with "drafts" in userspace, intended to be used for submission of evidence. That is not the case here. The userpage is not a draft of evidence, rather it is the evidence.) Paul August ☎ 20:23, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, Paul August for always paying attention; I thought that was the point, too :) Years ago, I prepared evidence in a sub-page, and later deleted the sub-page because the evidence (draft) was transferred to the evidence page. In this case, the evidence is in the link, and not on the main page-- which was seemingly endorsed by the responses on the case talk page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:02, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- Preserving it as part of the ArbCom case evidence is a misunderstanding of present-day policy. The Climate Change decision is very clear about that: evidence is what is presented on case pages. The bottom line is either plan on using it in some sort of dispute resolution against me, in a timely manner, or expect me to regard it as a violation of WP:POLEMIC. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:11, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- And as for this, just now: [6], there was no word limit on the workshop page, and the workshop page is not the evidence phase of a case. It's not evidence. It's a grudge page aimed at me. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:15, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- Could you please engage your AGF while on my talk page? No one is talking about word limits (to my knowledge), I am working to understand how to handle this (considering contradictory and incomplete information), and you accusing me of "a grudge" is a personal attack. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:21, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, Paul August for always paying attention; I thought that was the point, too :) Years ago, I prepared evidence in a sub-page, and later deleted the sub-page because the evidence (draft) was transferred to the evidence page. In this case, the evidence is in the link, and not on the main page-- which was seemingly endorsed by the responses on the case talk page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:02, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- Speaking as a former arb, and clerk, it is important that there be a complete record of every case. Thus it is necessary that all submitted evidence be preserved. (The point of the "principle" linked to above was to deal with "drafts" in userspace, intended to be used for submission of evidence. That is not the case here. The userpage is not a draft of evidence, rather it is the evidence.) Paul August ☎ 20:23, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, Jo-Jo Eumerus; it is odd that none of the arbs or clerks indicated that when specifically asked. The other odd thing is that finding relates to drafts later submittted to evidence, but I submitted the link as the evidence. Communication from the arbs in this case was not stellar, and they were specifically asked this question, and did not indicate the content had to be subst'd to the case pages, or copied to the case pages. I suppose courtesy blanking seems the best option to resolve this dilemma. Do they think every participant knows every old finding (even one 10 years old), and one wonders why they didn't answer the question or address this at the time it was raised on talk. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:57, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- It's an old Arbcom principle first articulated at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change#Evidence sub-pages in user space that one does not keep userspace subpages containing evidence for an Arbcom case. Not sure whether it's still applicable, though. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 18:50, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
DS Alert
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- I obviously know that you're aware but just filing the appropriate paperwork on all the people who were originally listed as parties in the case request. Barkeep49 (talk) 02:43, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, Barkeep49; you seem to have acquired a job for life :) Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:37, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
Sorry
Hi Sandy, just a note to apologize for having archived part of your page. I was looking for something and clicked "archive" by mistake. Sorry for the intrusion! SarahSV (talk) 03:07, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- SarahSV, no problem-- that's the kind of thing my fingers do all the time! (We may be looking for the same thing, and I can't find it. I believe it was deleted, and I believe the circumstances were different. Do you have any feedback?) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:36, 4 June 2020 (UTC)