No RfAs or RfBs reported by Cyberbot I since 15:41 5/3/2024 (UTC)
3 template-protected edit requests | ||||||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| ||||||||||||||||
Updated as needed. Last updated: 20:04, 22 May 2024 (UTC) |
Most recent poster here: SMcCandlish (talk).
As of 2017-09-09 , SMcCandlish is Active.
|
|
User talk:SMcCandlish/IP
|
Old stuff to resolve eventually
Cueless billiards
Extended content
|
---|
Categories are not my thing but do you think there are enough articles now or will be ever to make this necessary? Other than Finger billiards and possibly Carrom, what else is there?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 11:12, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Sad...How well forgotten some very well known people are. The more I read about Yank Adams, the more I realize he was world famous. Yet, he's almost completely unknown today and barely mentioned even in modern billiard texts.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:47, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
|
Look at the main page
Extended content
|
---|
Look at the main page --Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:37, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
|
Some more notes on Crystalate
Extended content
|
---|
Some more notes: they bought Royal Worcester in 1983 and sold it the next year, keeping some of the electronics part.[1]; info about making records:[2]; the chair in 1989 was Lord Jenkin of Roding:[3]; "In 1880, crystalate balls made of nitrocellulose, camphor, and alcohol began to appear. In 1926, they were made obligatory by the Billiards Association and Control Council, the London-based governing body." Amazing Facts: The Indispensable Collection of True Life Facts and Feats. Richard B. Manchester - 1991[4]; a website about crystalate and other materials used for billiard balls:[5]. Fences&Windows 23:37, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
|
Extended content
|
---|
No one has actually objected to the idea that it's really pointless for WP:SAL to contain any style information at all, other than in summary form and citing MOS:LIST, which is where all of WP:SAL's style advice should go, and SAL page should move back to WP:Stand-alone lists with a content guideline tag. Everyone who's commented for 7 months or so has been in favor of it. I'd say we have consensus to start doing it. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 13:13, 2 March 2012 (UTC) |
Your free 1-year HighBeam Research account is ready
Extended content
|
---|
Good news! You are approved for access to 80 million articles in 6500 publications through HighBeam Research.
Thanks for helping make Wikipedia better. Enjoy your research! Cheers, Ocaasi t | c 04:47, 3 May 2012 (UTC) |
Your Credo Reference account is approved
Extended content
|
---|
Good news! You are approved for access to 350 high quality reference resources through Credo Reference.
Thanks for helping make Wikipedia better. Enjoy your research! Cheers, Ocaasi 17:22, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
|
Circa
Extended content
|
---|
This edit explains how to write "ca.", which is still discouraged at MOS:#Abbreviations, WP:YEAR, WP:SMOS#Abbreviations, and maybe MOS:DOB, and after you must have read my complaint and ordeal at WT:Manual of Style/Abbreviations#Circa. Either allow "ca." or don't allow "ca.", I don't care which, but do it consistently. Art LaPella (talk) 15:41, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
|
You post at Wikipedia talk:FAQ/Copyright
Extended content
|
---|
That page looks like a hinterland (you go back two users in the history and you're in August). Are you familiar with WP:MCQ? By the way, did you see my response on the balkline averages?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 15:54, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
|
Hee Haw
Extended content
|
---|
Yeah, we did get along on Donkeys. And probably will get along on some other stuff again later. Best way to handle WP is to take it issue by issue and then let bygones be bygones. I'm finding some interesting debates over things like the line between a subspecies, a landrace and a breed. Just almost saw someone else's GA derailed over a "breed versus species" debate that was completely bogus, we just removed the word "adapt" and life would have been fine. I'd actually be interested in seeing actual scholarly articles that discuss these differences, particularly the landrace/breed issue in general, but in livestock in particular, and particularly as applied to truly feral/landrace populations (if, in livestock, there is such a thing, people inevitably will do a bit of culling, sorting and other interference these days). I'm willing to stick to my guns on the WPEQ naming issue, but AGF in all respects. Truce? Montanabw(talk) 22:40, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
|
Redundant sentence?
Extended content
|
---|
The sentence at MOS:LIFE "General names for groups or types of organisms are not capitalized except where they contain a proper name (oak, Bryde's whales, rove beetle, Van cat)" is a bit odd, since the capitalization would (now) be exactly the same if they were the names of individual species. Can it simply be removed? There is an issue, covered at Wikipedia:PLANTS#The use of botanical names as common names for plants, which may or may not be worth putting in the main MOS, namely cases where the same word is used as the scientific genus name and as the English name, when it should be de-capitalized. I think this is rare for animals, but more common for plants and fungi (although I have seen "tyrannosauruses" and similar uses of dinosaur names). Peter coxhead (talk) 09:17, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
|
Current threads
Note to self
Finish patching up WP:WikiProject English language with the stuff from User:SMcCandlish/WikiProject English Language, and otherwise get the ball rolling. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:22, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
Re: Diacritics
Greetings. I was referring to conventions like "All North American hockey pages should have player names without diacritics.". Cédric HATES TPP. 23:26, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
- @Cedric tsan cantonais: Wow, thanks for drawing that to my attention. Don't know how that one slipped past the radar. That is actually a bogus WP:LOCALCONSENSUS "guideline" and needs to be fixed! My point still stands, though, that "any" covers both this any any new proposal someone might come up with. :-) Anyway, I'm not sure how to deal with the "screw the MoS, we're going to ban diacritics in hockey" crap, other than probably an RfC hosted at WP:VPPOL. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:30, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
- For your information, I'm using "any and all" on the template so both our grounds can be covered. Cédric HATES TPP. 05:05, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
- Fortunately, the universe did not implode. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 18:30, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- For your information, I'm using "any and all" on the template so both our grounds can be covered. Cédric HATES TPP. 05:05, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Excellent mini-tutorial
Somehow, I forget quite how, I came across this - that is an excellent summary of the distinctions. I often get confused over those, and your examples were very clear. Is something like that in the general MoS/citation documentation? Oh, and while I am here, what is the best way to format a citation to a page of a document where the pages are not numbered? All the guidance I have found says not to invent your own numbering by counting the pages (which makes sense), but I am wondering if I can use the 'numbering' used by the digitised form of the book. I'll point you to an example of what I mean: the 'book' in question is catalogued here (note that is volume 2) and the digitised version is accessed through a viewer, with an example of a 'page' being here, which the viewer calls page 116, but there are no numbers on the actual book pages (to confuse things further, if you switch between single-page and double-page view, funny things happen to the URLs, and if you create and click on a single-page URL the viewer seems to relocate you one page back for some reason). Carcharoth (talk) 19:10, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Carcharoth: Thanks. I need to copy that into an essay page. As far as I know, the concepts are not clearly covered in any of those places, nor clearly enough even at Help:CS1 (which is dense and overlong as it is). The e-book matters bear some researching. I'm very curious whether particular formats (Nook, etc.) paginate consistently between viewers. For Web-accessible ones, I would think that the page numbering that appears in the Web app is good enough if it's consistent (e.g., between a PC and a smart phone) when the reader clicks the URL in the citation. I suppose one could also use
|at=
to provide details if the "page" has to be explained in some way. I try to rely on better-than-page-number locations when possible, e.g. specific entries in dictionaries and other works with multiple entries per page (numbered sections in manuals, etc.), but for some e-books this isn't possible – some are just continuous texts. One could probably use something like|at=in the paragraph beginning "The supersegemental chalcolithic metastasis is ..." about 40% into the document
, in a pinch. I guess we do need to figure this stuff out since such sources are increasingly common. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:29, 13 September 2016 (UTC)- Yes (about figuring out how to reference e-books), though I suspect existing (non-WP) citation styles have addressed this already (no need to re-invent the wheel). This is a slightly different case, though. It is a digitisation of an existing (physical) book that has no page numbers. If I had the book in front of me (actually, it was only published as a single copy, so it is not a 'publication' in that traditional sense of many copies being produced), the problem with page numbers would still exist. I wonder if the 'digital viewer' should be thought of as a 'via' thingy? In the same way that (technically) Google Books and archive.org digital copies of old books are just re-transmitting, and re-distributing the material (is wikisource also a 'via' sort of thing?). Carcharoth (talk) 23:13, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Carcharoth: Ah, I see. I guess I would treat it as a
|via=
, and same with WikiSource, which in this respect is essentially like Google Books or Project Gutenberg. I think your conundrum has come up various times with arXiv papers, that have not been paginated visibly except in later publication (behind a journal paywall and not examined). Back to the broader matter: Some want to treat WikiSource and even Gutenberg as republishers, but I think that's giving them undue editorial credit and splitting too fine a hair. Was thinking on the general unpaginated and mis-paginated e-sources matter while on the train, and came to the conclusion that for a short, unpaginated work with no subsections, one might give something like|at=in paragraph 23
, and for a much longer one use the|at=in the paragraph beginning "..."
trick. A straight up|pages=82–83
would work for an e-book with hard-coded meta-data pagination that is consistent between apps/platforms and no visual pagination. On the other hand, use the visual pagination in an e-book that has it, even if it doesn't match the e-book format's digital pagination, since the pagination in the visual content would match that of a paper copy; one might include a note that the pagination is that visible in the content if it conflicts with what the e-book reader says (this comes up a lot with PDFs, for one thing - I have many that include cover scans, and the PDF viewers treat that as p. 1, then other front matter as p. 2, etc., with the content's p. 1 being something like PDF p. 7). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 08:07, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Carcharoth: Ah, I see. I guess I would treat it as a
- Yes (about figuring out how to reference e-books), though I suspect existing (non-WP) citation styles have addressed this already (no need to re-invent the wheel). This is a slightly different case, though. It is a digitisation of an existing (physical) book that has no page numbers. If I had the book in front of me (actually, it was only published as a single copy, so it is not a 'publication' in that traditional sense of many copies being produced), the problem with page numbers would still exist. I wonder if the 'digital viewer' should be thought of as a 'via' thingy? In the same way that (technically) Google Books and archive.org digital copies of old books are just re-transmitting, and re-distributing the material (is wikisource also a 'via' sort of thing?). Carcharoth (talk) 23:13, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Please delete the shortcuts you recently created
The original shortcuts can then be moved. Please do not undo my changes and add extra spaces such as adding extra spaces to the refs. Please do not remove the wikilinks. It is incorrect if one of the sentences has a missing wikilink. The Template:Wikipedia essays in the essay was intentionally expanded. Please do not collapse the other parts of the essays. I want them all to be shown. The shortcut SOME was restored in order for editors to know it exists and for editors to use the shortcut. The WL unsupported attributions is still in the section. I moved it up. QuackGuru (talk) 16:03, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
If the shortcut is not going to be used that is widely divergent from the title then you could nominate it for deletion. QuackGuru (talk) 20:12, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
When quoting an article the wording or quote marks can't be changed. QuackGuru (talk) 05:28, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
- You can just undo what you disagree with; I won't editwar over it. It's not necessary to delete then move shortcuts; you were already "advertising" the ones in the odd spaced style, and "redirects are cheap", so its harmless for them to remain; if no one ever uses them after a while, then WP:RFD will delete them as part of routine maintenance. Purely typographic-conformity changes can be made to quoted material; see MOS:QUOTE. I don't know what "It is incorrect if one of the sentences has a missing wikilink" is referring to. If that's referring to quoted material, no it is not necessary to preserve links in quotes (not that MoS concerns actually apply to essay pages anyway). If the link is already present in the material above the quote with the same link, the second link is redundant. Having the essays template fully expanded to show every essay defeats the purpose of the template having collapsible sections. A template almost a third as long as your entire essay [I guess that depends on screen resolution] is not necessary, and is abusive of the reader. The collapsed portions are to categories of essays that don't relate to yours anyway. But if it's not in userspace, it's not really "yours" now, which is why I feel empowered to have edited it for conformance with standard operating procedure. I did not change the intent or message of the essay in any way, and even improved its clarity in a few places (despite disagreeing with its premise). If you really want to fight with me to make reference citations harder to read, be my guest, but also be aware that making edits to pages for no reason other than to futz with code spacing (especially in citations) is discouraged and considered a waste of editorial time and productivity. If you're going to react with this level of alarm and "do not!" any time someone touches an essay you've written, I strongly suggest keeping them in userspace, where they generally will not be touched except for necessary technical reasons. No essay needs that many shortcuts, especially a new one no one mentions but its author. A shortcut that has no obvious referent, isn't unambiguous, isn't memorable, and/or isn't likely to be used, is known as "polluting the namespace", routinely deleted at RfD. WP:SOME appears to go to WP:WEASEL, so I'm not sure why we're talking about it. The fact that a shortcut exists does not mean it needs to be advertised. The more that are added, the fewer of them actually get used, because it interferes with their memorability. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 17:59, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- It is annoying to have to uncollapsed the other essays. They are interrelated. The essay also proposes to unhide hidden citations. Adding extra spaces to citations makes it harder to edit articles. I didn't want just a link to weasel. I also wanted editors to know about the shortcut. I fixed that and other things. I made changes since my last comments. I think it is fine now. QuackGuru (talk) 18:23, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
Citation readability
- Like I said, I'm not inclined to fight with you about it. I've given rationales, and either they work for you or they don't. If this were article text, I would care more. Will debate one point: Adding spaces between citation parameters definitely does not make articles harder to edit, but much easier, especially for citation checkers and completers, who are doing some of our most important work. It does not help to add excessive spacing like
| parameter1 = value | parameter2 = value
. But|parameter1=value |parameter2=value
is much more readable than|parameter1=value|parameter2=value
. It also helps to add a space between|url=
(and especially|archive-url=
) and the actual URL, since it shortens the long string and permits line-wrapping sooner. This is only needed for URL parameters, since other parameters' values do not have enormous unbroken strings dumped into them. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:31, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- Like I said, I'm not inclined to fight with you about it. I've given rationales, and either they work for you or they don't. If this were article text, I would care more. Will debate one point: Adding spaces between citation parameters definitely does not make articles harder to edit, but much easier, especially for citation checkers and completers, who are doing some of our most important work. It does not help to add excessive spacing like
There are various ways to improve the editability of articles. Adding extra spaces to the citations decreases the editability of the content because it is easier to spot where the citations are when they don't have spaces. This means it is harder to differentiate between the words and citations when both have spaces. Therefore, removing extra spaces inside the citations improves the ease of editing for articles.
- Main citation spacing correctly (without extra spaces)
<ref name=Grana2014>{{cite journal|last=Grana|first=R|author2=Benowitz, N|author3=Glantz, SA|title=E-cigarettes: a scientific review.|journal=Circulation|date=13 May 2014|volume=129|issue=19|pages=1972–86|doi=10.1161/circulationaha.114.007667|pmc=4018182|pmid=24821826}}</ref>
- Main citation spacing incorrectly (with unnecessary spaces)
<ref name=Grana2014>{{cite journal |last=Grana |first=R |author2=Benowitz, N |author3=Glantz, SA |title=E-cigarettes: a scientific review. |journal=Circulation |date=13 May 2014 |volume=129 |issue=19 |pages=1972–86 |doi=10.1161/circulationaha.114.007667 |pmc=4018182 |pmid=24821826 }}</ref>
- Short citation correctly (without extra space and without quote marks)
<ref name=Grana2014/>
- Short citation incorrectly (with unnecessary space)
<ref name=Grana2014/ >
- Short citation incorrectly (with unnecessary quote marks)
<ref name="Grana2014"/>
I'm not sure which page this advise goes.
Adding extra spaces does make it more difficult to . What a mess. QuackGuru (talk) 22:38, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
<ref name=Grana2014/>
: is permissible (MediaWiki parses it correctly), but is malformed XML, so it harms WP:REUSE.<ref name=Grana2014 />
: Same but not quite as bad (has one XML error instead of two).<ref name="Grana2014" />
: Best. It's perfectly valid in MediaWiki, and is proper XML, so zero tools properly written will ever have trouble parsing it. It's also "futureproof": If a later editor doesn't like this scrunched up format (and there are many who do not), if they change it to<ref name="Grana 2014" />
(and in the original cite, of course) the result will still be valid, while<ref name=Grana 2014 />
will not be (nor will<ref name=Grana 2014/>
). Your labeling of<ref name="Grana2014" />
as "incorrect" is, well, itself incorrect. It's simply not the shortest possible construction that MediaWiki won't barf on. That doesn't mean<ref name=Grana2014/>
, the shortest possible one, is the preferable one, because other stuff will barf on it. Using that extra-compressed format also directly encourages incorrect markup elsewhere, e.g. in span, hr, and br elements. Failure to properly close singular elements (i.e. those without separate open and close tags) with space-slash-greaterthan also messes up the syntax highlighting.<ref name="Grana2014"/ >
or<ref name=Grana2014/ >
: Malformed.- "[I]t is easier to spot where the citations are when they don't have spaces" – I'm highly skeptical any usability study would demonstrate that to be true, and it's subjectively not true for me. The very presence of the space helps distinguish, while visually scanning, this markup from other markup like the original
<ref name="Grana 2014">...</ref>
. The presence of the quotation marks also helps, by making it easier to spot ref citations and distinguish them from otherfoo=bar
constructions, such as template parameters. But again, I'm not going to editwar with you over this stuff. You can take into account what I'm saying and revise your assessment, or not.
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 02:12, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- I nearly flew right over all this, but all the bolded "Short citation incorrectly..." stuff snapped me right back. QuackGuru, please note: the "<ref name= .../>" construct – a named ref – is NOT a "short citation". It is a way of linking to a note (or "footnote") made with the
<ref>...</ref>
tags, which note may contain a citation of some sort, or something else. This is not merely a terminological error, it is a conceptual error, and the cause of many discussions going at cross-purposes. Fortunately for this discussion it doesn't matter, as you are using the named ref only for purposes of illustration. But I would have this point clarified in anticipation of future discussions.
- I nearly flew right over all this, but all the bolded "Short citation incorrectly..." stuff snapped me right back. QuackGuru, please note: the "<ref name= .../>" construct – a named ref – is NOT a "short citation". It is a way of linking to a note (or "footnote") made with the
- As to the topic here (whether spaces add clarity): QG, it appears you have never done much programming, where clarity is crucial. As generations of English teachers (likely with other languages, but not within my personal knowledge) have taught: spaces – that is, breaks or gaps between words – are the primary means of distinguishing the parts of sentences. And there was a time, back in the days when writing was as esoteric as coding is nowadays, when all the text was run together without spaces. (Maybe vellum was expensive?) If you don't think spaces are useful, just try leaving them out. Same thing applies to coding. And there were several studies on such matters in the 1960s and 1970s, of which the most notable is Kernighan and Plauger's The Elements of Programming Style. Their bottom line: formatting style is important, and clarity is paramount.
- Now please note that I do not argue that extra spaces are always good. But judicious use can be very useful. E.g., prefixed to vertical bars (" |") makes it easier to identify and distinguish parameters (as SMC has illustrated). But I would go a little bit further: add a space after an equal sign, but not before it. E.g.: "|parm1= value |parm2= value". This makes the value stand out better, without letting the equal sign be a big distraction. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:48, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- When citations have spaces they are harder to initially distinguish from sentences that have spaces. If there is a problem with it becoming malformed or the syntax is not highlighting then the WMF needs input to create new software programs to fix the problems no matter how the citations are formatted. QuackGuru (talk) 20:01, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- I don't buy it. Except in mathematics-heavy articles, which must be edited with utmost care to avoid messing stuff up (i.e., we don't just rapid-skim them and edit willy-nilly), "sentences that have spaces" are not also going to be riddled with
=
and>
and other such symbols. It is not credible that a typical means of distinguishing regular prose from<ref>...</ref>
spans is the presence or absence of spaces, especially given a) these spans most often contain reference citations and b) they almost always have spaces in them. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:13, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- I don't buy it. Except in mathematics-heavy articles, which must be edited with utmost care to avoid messing stuff up (i.e., we don't just rapid-skim them and edit willy-nilly), "sentences that have spaces" are not also going to be riddled with
- When citations have spaces they are harder to initially distinguish from sentences that have spaces. If there is a problem with it becoming malformed or the syntax is not highlighting then the WMF needs input to create new software programs to fix the problems no matter how the citations are formatted. QuackGuru (talk) 20:01, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- Now please note that I do not argue that extra spaces are always good. But judicious use can be very useful. E.g., prefixed to vertical bars (" |") makes it easier to identify and distinguish parameters (as SMC has illustrated). But I would go a little bit further: add a space after an equal sign, but not before it. E.g.: "|parm1= value |parm2= value". This makes the value stand out better, without letting the equal sign be a big distraction. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:48, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- I agree that excessive spaces (breaks) can confuse one's parsing of syntax (which is why I don't have spaces after vertical bars or before equal signs). But let us note the context of where you are having problems: the use of citation templates (i.e., {{cite xxx}} and {{citation}}) in the text, where you have all those "
sentences that have spaces.
" But if you squeeze all the spaces out of your "coded text" (the template parameters, etc.) to distinguish it from the natural language text, it gets harder to read, and find errors in, the coded text. If this is a real serious problem for you one option is, as Floquenbeam suggests: use an edit tool (or editor) that color codes your text.
- I agree that excessive spaces (breaks) can confuse one's parsing of syntax (which is why I don't have spaces after vertical bars or before equal signs). But let us note the context of where you are having problems: the use of citation templates (i.e., {{cite xxx}} and {{citation}}) in the text, where you have all those "
- Here is (IMHO) a better option: don't mix your full citations (with all their parameterized bibiliographic detail) in with your article text. Put them in their own section (preferably "Sources"), using short cites in-line. And in "Sources" use (mostly) vertical format; it is a LOT easier.
- Please note: what you see as the problem is distinguishing code-text (template parameters, etc.) from natural language text it is mixed in with. I say the problem is in the mixing of these two kinds of text. Separating them greatly alleviates this (and some other problems). ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:17, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- This was done with many sources at Wikipedia's Knowledge Engine (Wikimedia Foundation). There are still a few left that were not added to the Reference section. I can't change how it is done on other articles. This requires community consensus to redo the citations. If there was such a consensus a bot would have to do all the work to move the full citations to the Reference section. QuackGuru (talk) 23:27, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- This approach introduces a different and more serious usability problem though: it interferes with the ability to edit on a section-by-section basis. People at least have to be permitted to add cites inline, with someone or something moving them later. Putting all references in the refs section at the end is really only a good idea for articles that are already at the FA stage and unlikely to change much in the future. If they're still in development, this citation method both discourages new content work, and encourages addition of content without any sources at all. Also leads to disputations over whether to alphbetize the list or give it in order of use of the source. The former produces a more orderly bibliography but at the cost of ref citations being in a confusing order like "A fact here.[27][3][32]" — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:07, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- I have learned from this discussion that there is no best approach for the citation style that will fit all articles. QuackGuru (talk) 01:04, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, this has been the general consensus or wiki-wisdom for a long time now. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 19:21, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- You prefer named-refs?? Now there's a useability problem: if the master named-ref is elsewhere all your slave named-refs (all the "
<ref name="Grana2014"/ >
" stuff) come up with big error messages. And if, after saving your section, there is an error, you have to hunt through the entire article to find the master ref. (Oh fun.) On the other hand, with short cites you don't get an error on your section preview. And if, after saving it, there is an error linking to the full citation you know exactly where to look: in "Sources".
- I have learned from this discussion that there is no best approach for the citation style that will fit all articles. QuackGuru (talk) 01:04, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- This approach introduces a different and more serious usability problem though: it interferes with the ability to edit on a section-by-section basis. People at least have to be permitted to add cites inline, with someone or something moving them later. Putting all references in the refs section at the end is really only a good idea for articles that are already at the FA stage and unlikely to change much in the future. If they're still in development, this citation method both discourages new content work, and encourages addition of content without any sources at all. Also leads to disputations over whether to alphbetize the list or give it in order of use of the source. The former produces a more orderly bibliography but at the cost of ref citations being in a confusing order like "A fact here.[27][3][32]" — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:07, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- This was done with many sources at Wikipedia's Knowledge Engine (Wikimedia Foundation). There are still a few left that were not added to the Reference section. I can't change how it is done on other articles. This requires community consensus to redo the citations. If there was such a consensus a bot would have to do all the work to move the full citations to the Reference section. QuackGuru (talk) 23:27, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- Please note: what you see as the problem is distinguishing code-text (template parameters, etc.) from natural language text it is mixed in with. I say the problem is in the mixing of these two kinds of text. Separating them greatly alleviates this (and some other problems). ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:17, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- Nor is this good idea "only for FA articles". It is good for ANY article that needs to "re-use" a citation — that is, to cite a source more than once — and even for articles that do not "re-use" citations. Simply getting all that bibliographic detail out of the text makes the text easier to read, and having all the full citations in one place (without the text!) makes it easier to read, verify, compare, maintain, and collate them. And in no way should it discourage new work.
- Speaking of collation: what is the problem? Bibliographies are almost invariably collated by last name of the first author. Notes — as in footnotes — are ordered and numbered by {reflist} in the same order as found in the text. If any the numbered note-links (e.g.: [1]) show up out of order it is because you are using named-refs. For shame!! Did I not state, at the very start of my irruption here, that a named-ref is NOT a "short citation"? No wonder you have problems. And yet another instance of why we need to respect the terminology.
- QG: on the contrary, you can "
change how it is done on other articles.
" Just get consensus. Of course, a larger or more prominent article, with more editors involved, is more likely to run into resistance. And, frankly, you seem to generate a lot of resistance. But this kind of change is possible, and it doesn't require a bot. Let me know if you would like to try it somewhere. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:20, 7 July 2017 (UTC)- I already said what the collation problem is. Bunching up citations at the end of the article is not particularly "good" for any article that needs to re-use a citation, just one of several functional options that all have their benefits and weaknesses. Just using
<ref name="whatever" />
works fine regardless where the<ref name="whatever">...</ref>
is, and often works better because it is fairly likely to be in the same section and thus render in the preview. It is no longer the case that refs outside the preview generate an error; they generate a notice that the refs are outside the preview and are not displayed. The majority of editors prefer this system; it is much easier on editors most of the time, and readers don't care one way or the other; the technical geekery underlying all this is transparent to them. The only time you find more complicated reference citation systems on WP is when either a) it's a GA, FA, or PR article (or candidate to be one) with a lot of references, and consensus has determined that separate references-and bibliography sections are needed; or b) the article started out that way because the principal original author of it is wedded to that citation format and uses it habitually, even when it is not helpful. It is never helpful with stubs and other short articles, in which it can produce redundant citation material that is longer than the actual content of the article; nor in articles with only a few sources, since it is bureaucratic overkill for something very simple; nor in articles with numerous sources each only cited once (or multiple times but at the same pages), for the same reason. It's only helpful in long articles with numerous sources many of which are cited repeatedly and at different pages. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 19:21, 8 July 2017 (UTC)- What? The use of allegedly "more complicated" systems is because "
the principal original author of it is wedded to that citation format and uses it habitually
"? Surely you have noticed that most people stick with what they started with, and, on WP, having figured out some way of doing citations, are loathe to have their fragile grasp of the matter in any way challenged. Most editors are "wedded" to a particular "citation format" (method), but most of them are abusing <ref>s.
- What? The use of allegedly "more complicated" systems is because "
- I already said what the collation problem is. Bunching up citations at the end of the article is not particularly "good" for any article that needs to re-use a citation, just one of several functional options that all have their benefits and weaknesses. Just using
- QG: on the contrary, you can "
- You say that short cites (right?) are "
never helpful with stubs and other short articles, in which it can produce redundant citation material that is longer than the actual content of the article ...
", which is baffling, unless you are duplicating something. Which would be just a flat-out error. The whole point of short-cites is to avoid duplicating the full citation (with all the bibliographic detail). And perhaps you have not considered that stubs often grow up, but if the first editor abuses <ref> then, per CITEVAR, it's pretty much an uphill battle to ever switch to something better.
- You say that short cites (right?) are "
- Well, I would love to bandy this about with you (too bad we're not in the same town, as this would be good over a beer or two), but I have "real fights" (fires?), etc., to attend to. Later. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:07, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- The differences are a) editors who just use the
<ref>
system as their go-to default vastly outnumber those who do not (i.e., it's a norm not a variance); b) those who do the simply system generally won't pick fights with editors who want to use a more complex citation approach – i.e., they are usually able to recognize and willing to concede when the simple system is not the best for a particular article. Those on the opposing, "complicating" side often have a strong "it's done this particular way in my field, so it must be done this way in articles about my field" perspective and may be extremely resistant against any contrary viewpoint. There is no demonstrable problem of the<ref>
system being "frozen" in long and complex articles; CITEVAR is almost always leveraged by opponents of that citation style to defend more complex citation styles even where they are not helpful, and when the've set their sights on changing an article away from the simple system, then generally show up in numbers (I wonder why that is?). They are the people who wrote CITEVAR, and if you attempt to change a single word of it, you'll hear from them very angrily, with all kinds of venting about people who use<ref>
, which will then diverge into rants against MoS editors, against "non-experts", against people who weren't already long-term editors of the articles in question, against infobox fans, against other wikiprojects than their pet one, against particular editors they don't like, and whatever else happens to be short-circuiting their critical thinking at that moment. Been there, done that.What "abuse" of the
<ref>
system do you mean? It would help to see an example, and to know what guidelines or policies it isn't following.Redundant citation material in short articles: I didn't say duplicated. If you have a short piece, then two separate sections for handling citation material, with entries in one referring to entries in the other, is redundant and unnecessarily complicated and lengthy, any time these can be compressed into single entries in one section. Or a main entry and shorter subsequent ones with a page number added, e.g.
<ref>Johnson 1999, p. 32</ref>
when a full cite to the same book [or whatever] has already appeared. There's no particular reason to do this in separate sections with two templating systems, unless the list of sources has become very long and some of them are cited over and over. Even then, there are plenty who do not feel the two-sections approach is the most useful here, even for long articles.
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 21:46, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- The differences are a) editors who just use the
- All these different issues should be thoroughly explained somewhere in a guideline. There is too many to remember. QuackGuru (talk) 23:02, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- That's what WP:CITE is for, but it has been controlled by a clique for about a decade, so good luck changing anything in it. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 19:21, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- Yes. I've thought of starting an alternative, but I don't have time (yet?) for such a major undertaking. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:12, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- WP:CITEBUNDLE says "Bundling has several advantages". The word "several" is misleading. It does not explain when there could be a problem with bundling citations. The new essay does explain when there could be a problem with bundling. There is even a section called "Bundling citations". I think a link to the specific section "Wikipedia:Citation_underkill#Bundling_citations" would benefit editors. QuackGuru (talk) 20:27, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- Guidelines and policies do not link to contrary essays. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:30, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- WP:CITEBUNDLE is misleading and contrary to common sense when it does not explain when there are times when bundling is a problem. To understand all sides of the issues editors must be given an opportunity to read when there are times bundling may be a disadvantage. QuackGuru (talk) 20:36, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- So raise a dispute about this at WT:CITE. No one is ever going to take seriously the idea of adding links to essays in there, only to changing the text to better reflect actual practice. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:51, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- The new essay is not even a month old. If others notice a problem with WP:CITEBUNDLE after reading Wikipedia:Citation_underkill#Bundling_citations, then it will be time to update WP:CITEBUNDLE. New content will not stick if I am alone trying to update WP:CITEBUNDLE. QuackGuru (talk) 21:36, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- Others would likely back a proposed change if it were well-founded and argued on its own merits without reference to an essay. The moment you mention the essay people will say "pshah, that's just an essay, and we're not going to change a major guideline just because some essay disagrees with it." — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:10, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- Based on the extreme one side view of WP:CITEBUNDLE I would have little chance of succeeding at the moment. Things will change at WP:CITEBUNDLE in the future after more editors read Wikipedia:Citation_underkill#Bundling_citations. Probably in about a year or two. QuackGuru (talk) 23:15, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- Others would likely back a proposed change if it were well-founded and argued on its own merits without reference to an essay. The moment you mention the essay people will say "pshah, that's just an essay, and we're not going to change a major guideline just because some essay disagrees with it." — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:10, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- The new essay is not even a month old. If others notice a problem with WP:CITEBUNDLE after reading Wikipedia:Citation_underkill#Bundling_citations, then it will be time to update WP:CITEBUNDLE. New content will not stick if I am alone trying to update WP:CITEBUNDLE. QuackGuru (talk) 21:36, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- So raise a dispute about this at WT:CITE. No one is ever going to take seriously the idea of adding links to essays in there, only to changing the text to better reflect actual practice. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:51, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- WP:CITEBUNDLE is misleading and contrary to common sense when it does not explain when there are times when bundling is a problem. To understand all sides of the issues editors must be given an opportunity to read when there are times bundling may be a disadvantage. QuackGuru (talk) 20:36, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- Guidelines and policies do not link to contrary essays. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:30, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- That's what WP:CITE is for, but it has been controlled by a clique for about a decade, so good luck changing anything in it. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 19:21, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- All these different issues should be thoroughly explained somewhere in a guideline. There is too many to remember. QuackGuru (talk) 23:02, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- (talk page stalker) (not sure why this talk page is on my watchlist) Not taking a side here, but if anyone on either side of the disagreement doesn't know about the Syntax highlighter, it parses the edit window and helps identify reference text from comments from normal text from templates, etc., using colored shading. It's a gadget, look under the "editing" heading. Not perfect, but certainly useful. Apologies if everyone knows about this already. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:12, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, I use it; one of the reasons I'm strict about syntax (stricter than MediaWiki absolutely requires) is that the syntax highligher will break on various forms of sloppy coding that MW itself can compensate for. The syntax highlighting also makes the "I can't tell the differences between regular sentences and citatoins if the citations have a space character in them" idea all the more implausible. Even if one is color-blind, the luminosity difference between regular text and markup is still discernible. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:13, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
Please comment on Talk:Italy
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Italy. Legobot (talk) 04:24, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
Request for openion
Article Legitimacy (criminal law) has been requested to be moved to Legitimacy (law) requesting your openion at Talk:Legitimacy_(criminal_law)
Thanks and regards
Mahitgar (talk) 07:45, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
D+T UK
You have added a note to the top of the page. You say that phrases such as 'you must not' should not be used. This is not an opinion. This IS fact, added by an editor for reasons of their own. They were - as far as I can tell - well informed.
Regarding selective sources, I can add one which advises a colon for time. I did not know of any until recently. No other editors seem no have been able to find any either, though. I wil fix this.
I did recently change some of the article to read in a less prescriptive tone, ie not pushing one point of view when others are active.
If you have any other details about why it is regarded to be of an un-encyclopaedic tone, I would be very grateful, so they can be resolved. I am also interested in what attracted you to the page.
Regards,
-Sb2001 (talk) 21:26, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
- Wikipedia does not use "must" and "you" language; it is not an encyclopedic style. See WP:TONE, MOS:YOU, WP:NOT#GUIDE, etc. And no, that bit is not a "fact", it's a subjective opinion about what is "proper" or "correct" based on prescriptive grammar notions. It's great that you've already been working on the page to remove some prescriptive language. The cleanup tag I added just indicates that more such work is needed; it's not a condemnation of the article or of previous work to improve it. Colons: Glad a source has been found. I ended up at the page while looking for and undoing your eg and 4.01pm edits, which don't comply with our style guide. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 17:34, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
Talkback: Sb2001
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
Proposed deprecation of /ᵻ, ᵿ/
Hi, I was wondering if you might be be interested in giving opinion at Help talk:IPA for English § RfC: Proposed deprecation of /ᵻ, ᵿ/ since I see you have previously participated in the conversation regarding dropping another diaphoneme /ɵ/. Your input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Nardog (talk) 13:01, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
MOS/Capital letters talk page
Hi, SMcCandlish
I pinged you on the MOS/Capital letters talk page, regarding the note you left on my talk page. If you'd like to weigh-in on the MOS/Capital letters talk page - and the current proposals being discussed there - please do. X4n6 (talk) 03:26, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- Right-oh. I added some commentary, but closed with a suggestion to start drafting an outline. "I support change!" is pretty meaningless, especially when the work to actually implement a change that will make sense to people and gain consensus is quite difficult for something like this. This is a really thorny one to explain, about on par with the distinction between dashes (of two kinds) and hyphens, and how to use them exactly. That's something WP wrangled with for months and months, with sporadic dispute lasting for years, and there are still some unanswered questions (I ended up disagreeing with two other MoS regulars on some fine point of it only a few months ago). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 06:54, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for your contribution there. I think your exchange with the other editor will be useful, as you can provide some historical background regarding how these issues have been dealt with here in the past. I think you can also add some guidance regarding the question of the appropriate forum for addressing changes to the MOS. I believe we both agree this cannot be accomplished exclusively by a handful of folks on a guideline's talk page, an RfC notwithstanding. Please continue to follow up and contribute there. X4n6 (talk) 22:21, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- @X4n6: Well, it's normal for MoS changes to be done at WT:MOS and often with an RfC. What's not normal is changes that affect the main MOS page to be made by a couple of editors, without an RfC, on the talk page of an MoS subpage, then changing the MoS subpage to conflict with MOS:MAIN, then trying to make the main MoS "comply" with the new changes at the subpage (or just leaving the guideline conflict to sit there indefinitely). Also irregular is a discussion taking place at a wikiproject, an article talk page, or a template talk page and its handful of participants agreeing that they have a "consensus" to change the site-wide MoS (or to write their own topical "anti-guideline" that contradicts it). Changing MoS substantively usually only happens by RfC (or for trivial stuff a regular discussion) at WT:MOS, or if a big brouhaha is expected, at WP:VPPOL. I increasingly lean toward doing significant changes (those that might affect thousands of articles or more) at VPPOL, especially if there's any "emotional involvement" by any camp of editors about the matter; a VPPOL RfC has better value as a consensus record due to the broader editorial input. That's how the MOS:JR issue got settled, and it's also been used for MOS:IDENTITY, etc. But, VPPOL is not a magic wand. For example, getting MOS:JR actually implemented in mainspace required dozens of WP:RMs, with the same handful of opponents tendentiously resisting every single move of names like "Robert Downey, Jr." to "Robert Downey Jr.", despite the RfC and despite every previous RM going the way the RfC said it should. It was a ridiculous waste of editorial time and energy. C'est la vie. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:01, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- We are basically in accord here. Among the other relevant issues covered, I just wanted folks to be clear that an RfC on that page wasn't substantial enough to merit a guideline rewrite, as had been proposed. Thanks for lending your view. Will continue to welcome it there, should more discussion occur. X4n6 (talk) 23:55, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
- @X4n6: Well, it's normal for MoS changes to be done at WT:MOS and often with an RfC. What's not normal is changes that affect the main MOS page to be made by a couple of editors, without an RfC, on the talk page of an MoS subpage, then changing the MoS subpage to conflict with MOS:MAIN, then trying to make the main MoS "comply" with the new changes at the subpage (or just leaving the guideline conflict to sit there indefinitely). Also irregular is a discussion taking place at a wikiproject, an article talk page, or a template talk page and its handful of participants agreeing that they have a "consensus" to change the site-wide MoS (or to write their own topical "anti-guideline" that contradicts it). Changing MoS substantively usually only happens by RfC (or for trivial stuff a regular discussion) at WT:MOS, or if a big brouhaha is expected, at WP:VPPOL. I increasingly lean toward doing significant changes (those that might affect thousands of articles or more) at VPPOL, especially if there's any "emotional involvement" by any camp of editors about the matter; a VPPOL RfC has better value as a consensus record due to the broader editorial input. That's how the MOS:JR issue got settled, and it's also been used for MOS:IDENTITY, etc. But, VPPOL is not a magic wand. For example, getting MOS:JR actually implemented in mainspace required dozens of WP:RMs, with the same handful of opponents tendentiously resisting every single move of names like "Robert Downey, Jr." to "Robert Downey Jr.", despite the RfC and despite every previous RM going the way the RfC said it should. It was a ridiculous waste of editorial time and energy. C'est la vie. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:01, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for your contribution there. I think your exchange with the other editor will be useful, as you can provide some historical background regarding how these issues have been dealt with here in the past. I think you can also add some guidance regarding the question of the appropriate forum for addressing changes to the MOS. I believe we both agree this cannot be accomplished exclusively by a handful of folks on a guideline's talk page, an RfC notwithstanding. Please continue to follow up and contribute there. X4n6 (talk) 22:21, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
Please comment on Talk:2017
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:2017. Legobot (talk) 04:25, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia:How to mine a source
Can an editor use a source if it does not got into a full discussion on a specific subject? The source is about regulation, but it covers so much more. I think Wikipedia:How to mine a source should explain what an editor can or can't do with using a source in this type of circumstance. QuackGuru (talk) 19:35, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- @QuackGuru: Hmm. I would think that it's a matter of general WP:RS determination. Is the author reputable in the particular field? Then it's treated as a good source by default, unless/until a better source comes along (e.g. more recent and more in depth on the side topic at issue), and even then we might note a conflict between sources, or if multiple sources suggest a scientific consensus against the summarized view in the original source that was used, maybe just remove that contrary view. his is standard operating procedure especially in WP:MEDRS vs. WP:FRINGE matterse. (But I'm particularly thinking of side-comments on linguistic matters by zoologists, and other such cases; "is reliable on x" doesn't mean "is reliable, period".) Is the author drawing on sources, or speaking from personal (including professional) experience and observation? If the latter, then it's a primary source for that material, even if it also contains secondary material on its main topic. There are probably other such considerations I'm eliding. Not really sure how to work that stuff into the essay, or if it's necessary to do so. I'd be more apt to warn against over-generalizing from tertiary sources that aren't written by experts (e.g. Encyclopedia of Dog Breeds-style coffee-table books).
The piece you link to an abstract of (full text is pay-walled) looks like a literature review, though not a systematic review, in a generally reputable journal, by a set of authors who are mostly previously published under peer review (some a lot), and covering "the available data regarding safety and public health impacts of e-cigarettes" and "the status of US regulations and policies affecting their sale and use"; so, two inter-related topics on which it is presumptively reliable for being a lit. rev. published in a major journal. Is there something you or someone else wants to cite from it that isn't within those two topics? I guess I'm too unclear on what the issue(s) is/are to know why this example has been picked, and what it's an example of.
It's unlikely to be reliable for anything predictive (that'd be a primary-source opinion), or a novel conclusion the authors draw which can't be traced to any of the sources being reviewed (that'd be the authors' own primary research, which is discouraged in lit. revs. but not unknown). It also may not be reliable for anything that involves increasingly politicized "doctrinal" disputes raging between "e-cigs are just an evil" and "e-cigs are an improvement over real ones" viewpoints (among others, like "e-cigs are different and a simplistic comparison is meaningless"). There's considerable evidence these are increasingly US versus EU/UK viewpoints, as well as even more a split between different kinds of professionals, and that in either case various national bodies are staking out unwavering stances one way or another, including the American Cancer Society, in whose journal this appears. An authorial push in one direction or another on such matters would also be primary source material (socio-political opinion of the authors and their institutions, and possibly even the post hoc editorial opinion of the publisher inserted as a condition of publication). PS: Whether other editors are willing to concede that it's clearly going to be unreliable for these sorts of things (if it includes any of them) is another matter entirely.
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:41, 11 July 2017 (UTC)- The abstract says "This review highlights the available data regarding safety and public health impacts of e-cigarettes and details the status of US regulations and policies affecting their sale and use."[9] One of the points is the following: "Overall, e-cigarettes have the potential to significantly harm the public’s health, with particular concern for the health of adolescents and individuals from certain underserved populations."[10] An editor could say it is unreliable because the review also says "A full discussion of the potential for “harm reduction” with e-cigarettes and the balance of their harms versus benefits is beyond the scope of this review;"[11] I know it is a high-quality review, but I have seen editors say a source is mainly about one thing and it is unreliable for anything else or we can only draw from the conclusion and not use anything else from the source. The general point I was making was for clarifying things like this for Wikipedia:How to mine a source. A source is mainly about one thing or two, but it may have other points that can be used to expand the article or a subpage. Is there an essay or any policy or guideline that covers this? QuackGuru (talk) 00:14, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- @QuackGuru: I don't know of any WP:P&G page on that; it's just a factor of editorial consensus about applying the interplay between WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, and WP:RS, to a particular claim and the source for it. The "Overall ..." bit sounds like a primary-source conclusion reached by the authors of the review – their collective summary of the state of things; it could be cited with attribution (probably to the paper, since it would be tedious to name all the authors). But it might also be genuine lit. rev. material, a summary of the actual consensus in the field. No way to know without the full text and a close examination of who they're citing for what. I don't think the "A full discussion ..." disclaimer matters, because the "Overall ..." statement isn't a full discussion, but a summary of [their potentially novel view of?] the current consensus in the peer-reviewed material. Regardless, I would be inclined to attribute this, and virtually everything else in this topic, because one camp's "fact" is another's "bogus politicized claim" and vice-versa. Basically, all sources on a topic like this verge on primary, at least for some of what they're saying. PS: I added a new section at WP:MINE. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:58, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- I would say it is not the conclusion under the heading "Conclusion", but it is a conclusion. If there is a serious disagreement then it will require attribution. The only problem with this topic is that there are too many reviews. Every month there is about three new reviews. "A caution on misapplication" touches on my concerns on all sides of the issues. Thanks. The correct wikilink to use in A caution on misapplication is WP:CCPOL. QuackGuru (talk) 01:44, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Agreed on attribution; I'm not sure even "serious disagreement" is required. Too many lit. revs.: yeah, I gave up trying to keep track of this issue over a year ago. I don't have the time or patience for the real work, much less for all the Wikipedian un-work (interpersonal bullshit, etc.) involved. Glad the caution-on-misapplication material hit the spots. I was kind of guessing, and then elaborating from other ideas I'd been percolating on where sourcing goes wrong, especially with trying to pull "small" facts from sources. CCPOL: fixed. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 02:48, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Hopefully the review after another new review will slow down. It is too much work. I am the only editor doing all the work. There are times one review can be used on multiple pages. Imagine spending two to three hours summarizing one review. I added one sentence to citation underkill with a wikilink to How to mine a source and now How to mine a source discusses it in more detail. Job well done. QuackGuru (talk) 03:13, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Zankyu beddy mush! I empathize – the kind of sourcing work I do id much like that, time- and tedium-wise, but more often it's checking 20+ style guides and other such works on a grammar or punctuation matter (mostly to undo bogus nationalistic claims in various articles on English. See, e.g., footnotes at Exempli gratia, material that mostly needs to move into an article on comma usage in English; at Talk:Comma I've proposed a WP:SPINOUT of the long section on this into a separate article for detailed and sourced development like this. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 04:28, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- I think readers may want to keep the English language and other languages on the same page for comparison. QuackGuru (talk) 13:40, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Which is why WP:SUMMARY style exists. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 03:34, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- This is done by a case-by-case basis. The English language must be very long to split it into another page. QuackGuru (talk) 15:22, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- I was just told on the talk page that a paper that is about mainly about one thing cannot be used for other things from the same paper. QuackGuru (talk) 15:20, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- It already is long, and will get much longer. Most of the source research I do for MoS disputes is saved and is ultimately intended for use in articles. It's not in articles yet mostly because we have almost no articles on English usage, only sections, which are already large. What we need, this being the English Wikipedia, is articles on English, and summary-style sections of them in world-wide articles. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:39, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- This is like having an article specifically on English Wikipedia. Got it. QuackGuru (talk) 01:59, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- Well, more that people are mostly going to be looking for [encyclopedic, not "advice"] English-usage material when they look something like a capitalization or punctuation matter here. For each person looking to compare comma usage between Russian and German and French (or whatever), there are probably 1000 or more looking, at en.wp, for info on how commas are used in English, according to what sources. Addressing those English punctuation/style/grammar topics fully will result in articles that, on English in particular, are much larger than the multi-language overview articles we present have and which are more and more looking like "in English, plus some tidbits about other languages, when we bother", which isn't a good way to write about something like the comma as a mark in world languages. As an example, to adequately source "A. B. Ceesdale Jr./Jnr" versus "A. B. Ceesdale, Jr." (with a comma) style requires several paragraphs about North American and Commonwealth English and the changing of patterns over time, with dozens of sources. It's a level of detail that belongs in a section about this on an article on comma usage in English, not in the article on the comma as a punctuation mark in languages in general, nor in the article on abbreviations used with names (which also covers PhD, Dr., Rev., OBE, and many other subtopics, which don't have anything to do with punctuation mechanics in our language in particular). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 02:17, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- I was thinking google books can provide sources to expand the soon-to-be Comma (English language) article. QuackGuru (talk) 02:23, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- There's no shortage of sources. I own almost English every style guide and major (non-learners') English grammar work in print, and many that no longer are. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 10:36, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- I was thinking google books can provide sources to expand the soon-to-be Comma (English language) article. QuackGuru (talk) 02:23, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- Well, more that people are mostly going to be looking for [encyclopedic, not "advice"] English-usage material when they look something like a capitalization or punctuation matter here. For each person looking to compare comma usage between Russian and German and French (or whatever), there are probably 1000 or more looking, at en.wp, for info on how commas are used in English, according to what sources. Addressing those English punctuation/style/grammar topics fully will result in articles that, on English in particular, are much larger than the multi-language overview articles we present have and which are more and more looking like "in English, plus some tidbits about other languages, when we bother", which isn't a good way to write about something like the comma as a mark in world languages. As an example, to adequately source "A. B. Ceesdale Jr./Jnr" versus "A. B. Ceesdale, Jr." (with a comma) style requires several paragraphs about North American and Commonwealth English and the changing of patterns over time, with dozens of sources. It's a level of detail that belongs in a section about this on an article on comma usage in English, not in the article on the comma as a punctuation mark in languages in general, nor in the article on abbreviations used with names (which also covers PhD, Dr., Rev., OBE, and many other subtopics, which don't have anything to do with punctuation mechanics in our language in particular). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 02:17, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- This is like having an article specifically on English Wikipedia. Got it. QuackGuru (talk) 01:59, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- It already is long, and will get much longer. Most of the source research I do for MoS disputes is saved and is ultimately intended for use in articles. It's not in articles yet mostly because we have almost no articles on English usage, only sections, which are already large. What we need, this being the English Wikipedia, is articles on English, and summary-style sections of them in world-wide articles. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:39, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- Which is why WP:SUMMARY style exists. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 03:34, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- I think readers may want to keep the English language and other languages on the same page for comparison. QuackGuru (talk) 13:40, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Zankyu beddy mush! I empathize – the kind of sourcing work I do id much like that, time- and tedium-wise, but more often it's checking 20+ style guides and other such works on a grammar or punctuation matter (mostly to undo bogus nationalistic claims in various articles on English. See, e.g., footnotes at Exempli gratia, material that mostly needs to move into an article on comma usage in English; at Talk:Comma I've proposed a WP:SPINOUT of the long section on this into a separate article for detailed and sourced development like this. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 04:28, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Hopefully the review after another new review will slow down. It is too much work. I am the only editor doing all the work. There are times one review can be used on multiple pages. Imagine spending two to three hours summarizing one review. I added one sentence to citation underkill with a wikilink to How to mine a source and now How to mine a source discusses it in more detail. Job well done. QuackGuru (talk) 03:13, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Agreed on attribution; I'm not sure even "serious disagreement" is required. Too many lit. revs.: yeah, I gave up trying to keep track of this issue over a year ago. I don't have the time or patience for the real work, much less for all the Wikipedian un-work (interpersonal bullshit, etc.) involved. Glad the caution-on-misapplication material hit the spots. I was kind of guessing, and then elaborating from other ideas I'd been percolating on where sourcing goes wrong, especially with trying to pull "small" facts from sources. CCPOL: fixed. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 02:48, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- I would say it is not the conclusion under the heading "Conclusion", but it is a conclusion. If there is a serious disagreement then it will require attribution. The only problem with this topic is that there are too many reviews. Every month there is about three new reviews. "A caution on misapplication" touches on my concerns on all sides of the issues. Thanks. The correct wikilink to use in A caution on misapplication is WP:CCPOL. QuackGuru (talk) 01:44, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- @QuackGuru: I don't know of any WP:P&G page on that; it's just a factor of editorial consensus about applying the interplay between WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, and WP:RS, to a particular claim and the source for it. The "Overall ..." bit sounds like a primary-source conclusion reached by the authors of the review – their collective summary of the state of things; it could be cited with attribution (probably to the paper, since it would be tedious to name all the authors). But it might also be genuine lit. rev. material, a summary of the actual consensus in the field. No way to know without the full text and a close examination of who they're citing for what. I don't think the "A full discussion ..." disclaimer matters, because the "Overall ..." statement isn't a full discussion, but a summary of [their potentially novel view of?] the current consensus in the peer-reviewed material. Regardless, I would be inclined to attribute this, and virtually everything else in this topic, because one camp's "fact" is another's "bogus politicized claim" and vice-versa. Basically, all sources on a topic like this verge on primary, at least for some of what they're saying. PS: I added a new section at WP:MINE. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:58, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- The abstract says "This review highlights the available data regarding safety and public health impacts of e-cigarettes and details the status of US regulations and policies affecting their sale and use."[9] One of the points is the following: "Overall, e-cigarettes have the potential to significantly harm the public’s health, with particular concern for the health of adolescents and individuals from certain underserved populations."[10] An editor could say it is unreliable because the review also says "A full discussion of the potential for “harm reduction” with e-cigarettes and the balance of their harms versus benefits is beyond the scope of this review;"[11] I know it is a high-quality review, but I have seen editors say a source is mainly about one thing and it is unreliable for anything else or we can only draw from the conclusion and not use anything else from the source. The general point I was making was for clarifying things like this for Wikipedia:How to mine a source. A source is mainly about one thing or two, but it may have other points that can be used to expand the article or a subpage. Is there an essay or any policy or guideline that covers this? QuackGuru (talk) 00:14, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Help! No not what you think
Hi! Forgive bad effort at light hearted subject heading. This is *about* help pages. You are primary author of help essay WP:MINE. Currently its tagged with Template:Wikipedia how-to, which is great. FYI I have proposed moving that template to Template:Wikipedia help page (which I created as a redir to the former). I'm interested in moving as many help pages to help namespace as possible. Would you consider moving your essay over there, and leaving a redir in the Wikipedia mainspace? Thanks for thinking about it! All help pages, seems to me, are best grouped as help pages in the help namespace. Of course, that's a bit like saying we'll sort the beach sand,but ya gotta start somewhere! NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:19, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Sure; it really is more a "Help:"-namespace item. Re: "moving as many help pages to help namespace as possible" – exercise caution; some stuff purporting to be a help/how-to page is really a "how to do something my weird way that isn't supported by consensus". Even my own page on this reflects just a particular editorial point of view, though no one has challenged a single aspect of it. QuackGuru, above, suggested some clarification/disclaimer material, and I added, just now, probably more than he had in mind, with close reference to the core content policies. It probably better reflects consensus now than it did before. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:02, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- @NewsAndEventsGuy: PS: Template rename and merge discussions are, these days, conventionally done at WP:TFD. People may object if it isn't done via that venue (or they may not). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:06, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for feedback. Somewhere I saw that templates are moved via the conventional move process, but that may need updating. I'll add the TFD tags on top of the one I already used. Its true there's a lot of excellent material, and a lot of totally whacko material, appearing as quasi help pages under various labels and templates scattered across Wikipedia and help namespaces. And people argue about their enforceability regularly. If any of it lacks enough consensus to be a help page, then it should probably just be an essay. At present I'm just focussed on things that already have the wikipedia how-to tag. I'm not touching high traffic high impact ones for the time being. Blah blah blah etc. Thanks for the help! NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:27, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- @NewsAndEventsGuy: I stand corrected, actually. Was thinking of categories, where move/rename is folded into CfD. It's merge/split discussions that have been folded into TfD. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:33, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for the followup. Transparency is key! Can you suggest improvements on what I have already done? From that bots also tagged the project page and listed it at the requested move page. I posted FYI links at talk for project namespace and policy page Policies and guidelines. Think at the vpump and project helpspace too. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:44, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- @NewsAndEventsGuy: The RM/proposal seems adequate to me, though I would have done it as an RfC (and someone might try to wikilawyer that RMs can't be used for more-than-move results; they'd be wrong, but I see people make this argument sometimes, e.g. when a discussion is leaning Merge and they oppose the merger). It can be converted into an RfC just by changing the template code from RM to RfC, and changing the heading (keep the old one functional as
{{anchor|Requested move 11 July 2017}}
right after the new one). I refactored my long post into a small !vote, and moved our lengthening discussion to the Discussion section. I would definitely agree on including the Pump; this is kind of a systemic change when the entire proposal is absorbed. Just a neutral notice along these lines would do it: ==The Help namespace and Wikipedia how-to pages==
{{FYI|Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.}}
Please see [[Template talk:Wikipedia how-to#Requested move 11 July 2017]], for a proposal to rename various "how-to"-titled pages, and to move more internal Wikipedia-namespace help/how-to material into the Help namespace. ~~~~- (or link to whatever the RfC heading is, if you decide to go the RfC route). WP:VPPOL is probably the right venue, since it's about how we categorize/label pages, would move stuff out of the policy/guidelines namespace, has WP:NOT#HOWTO resonance, etc. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 03:03, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- thanks for those thoughts but I think I'm OK leaving it the way it is . The only real proposal in that thread is to change the template name and a tiny bit of text as listed in the proposal . . Weather any given page should be moved does not bear on the question about the template name and text. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 04:19, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Hokay-dokay. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 04:23, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing at TFD which i didn't know about. After sleeping, I realized I could just skip the templates and post a pointer link which I did here. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:06, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Hokay-dokay. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 04:23, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- thanks for those thoughts but I think I'm OK leaving it the way it is . The only real proposal in that thread is to change the template name and a tiny bit of text as listed in the proposal . . Weather any given page should be moved does not bear on the question about the template name and text. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 04:19, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- @NewsAndEventsGuy: The RM/proposal seems adequate to me, though I would have done it as an RfC (and someone might try to wikilawyer that RMs can't be used for more-than-move results; they'd be wrong, but I see people make this argument sometimes, e.g. when a discussion is leaning Merge and they oppose the merger). It can be converted into an RfC just by changing the template code from RM to RfC, and changing the heading (keep the old one functional as
- Thanks for the followup. Transparency is key! Can you suggest improvements on what I have already done? From that bots also tagged the project page and listed it at the requested move page. I posted FYI links at talk for project namespace and policy page Policies and guidelines. Think at the vpump and project helpspace too. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:44, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- @NewsAndEventsGuy: I stand corrected, actually. Was thinking of categories, where move/rename is folded into CfD. It's merge/split discussions that have been folded into TfD. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:33, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for feedback. Somewhere I saw that templates are moved via the conventional move process, but that may need updating. I'll add the TFD tags on top of the one I already used. Its true there's a lot of excellent material, and a lot of totally whacko material, appearing as quasi help pages under various labels and templates scattered across Wikipedia and help namespaces. And people argue about their enforceability regularly. If any of it lacks enough consensus to be a help page, then it should probably just be an essay. At present I'm just focussed on things that already have the wikipedia how-to tag. I'm not touching high traffic high impact ones for the time being. Blah blah blah etc. Thanks for the help! NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:27, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- @NewsAndEventsGuy: PS: Template rename and merge discussions are, these days, conventionally done at WP:TFD. People may object if it isn't done via that venue (or they may not). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:06, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
BTW thanks for moving the ciscussion to discussion. I think you broke your sig and I think I fixed it. Just thought I should FYI you in case you want to double checkI didn't screw up. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:10, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Please comment on Talk:Comma
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Comma. Legobot (talk) 04:25, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Barnstar
Didn't want to mess with your user page, so:
The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar | ||
For going above and beyond to help with a query — Anakimitalk 20:58, 13 July 2017 (UTC) |
- @Anakimi: Oh, thanks. It was my pleasure (literally – I get a thrill out of resolving long-term, vexing problems with small bits of code). I hope it solves similar layout issues for other editors in other topics, too. I may add a div wrapper for content, as well. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:07, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- @Anakimi: Done: Template:Gallery layout content. I updated Real Madrid C.F. to use the "less HTML and CSS geekery" version. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 02:55, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
New Page Reviewer Newsletter
Backlog update:
- The new page backlog is currently at 18,511 pages. We have worked hard to decrease from over 22,000, but more hard work is needed! Please consider reviewing even just a few pages a a day.
- Some editors are committing to work specifically on patrolling new pages on 15 July. If you have not reviewed new pages in a while, this might be a good time to be involved. Please remember that quality of patrolling is more important than quantity, that the speedy deletion criteria should be followed strictly, and that ovetagging for minor issues should be avoided.
Technology update:
- Several requests have been put into Phabractor to increase usability of the New Pages Feed and the Page Curation toolbar. For more details or to suggest improvements go to Wikipedia:Page Curation/Suggested improvements
- The tutorial has been updated to include links to the following useful userscripts. If you were not aware of them, they could be useful in your efforts reviewing new pages:
- User:Lourdes/PageCuration.js adds a link to the new pages feed and page curation toolbar to your top toolbar on Wikipedia
- User:The Earwig/copyvios.js adds a link in your side toolbox that will run the current page through
General project update:
- Following discussion at Wikipedia talk:New pages patrol/Reviewers, Wikipedia:New pages patrol/Noticeboard has been marked as historical. Wikipedia talk:New pages patrol/Reviewers is currently the most active central discussion forum for the New Page Patrol project. To keep up to date on the most recent discussions you can add it to your watchlist or visit it periodically.
If you wish to opt-out of future mailings, go here. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:48, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
Please comment on Talk:Monogram Pictures
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Monogram Pictures. Legobot (talk) 04:28, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
FYI
Please see revision and opine whether you still support, or have further thoughts etc. Thanks! NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:34, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
Please comment on Portal talk:Current events
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Portal talk:Current events. Legobot (talk) 04:28, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Inanimate whose revisited
Care to take a look over Inanimate whose? I'm hoping to polish up up for GAN soon. I've actually found a pile more sources I could add, but it's gotten to the point where they're all just saying variations of the same thing, and I don't want to load up the article with tedious, redundant quotes. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:56, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- When I get a bit of time; very backlogged right now. My main concerns (without yet looking at the current revision) would be the following (some copy-pasted from a draft essay on "How to write about English at the English Wikipedia"; didn't have time to write up all this just now, though thinking on this i-whose topic pointed out two things I need to add to the essay):
Various bullet points:
|
---|
|
- — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:36, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks SMcCandlish. You have provided yet another insightful comment that reflects sober critical thoughts on editing and the WP project as a whole. We need more editors like you. Cheers, Loopy30 (talk) 14:33, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- @Loopy30: Nice to know someone cares! — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:52, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks SMcCandlish. You have provided yet another insightful comment that reflects sober critical thoughts on editing and the WP project as a whole. We need more editors like you. Cheers, Loopy30 (talk) 14:33, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- @Curly Turkey: Great work! I got some sleep, and just read Inanimate whose top to bottom, did some minor copyedits, and left some additional sourcing suggestions and such on the talk page (mostly notes-to-self, since I own all the books except one, a mid-century edition of Hart's Rules). I would support this for GA, and it doesn't trigger any of my draft essay concerns, though many other articles here do, especially Quotation marks in English, a disaster of nationalist PoV pushing and OR. PS: Did you see Talk:Comma#RfC: Split off section to new "Comma in English" article? — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:46, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Geographic Location Template
Hello. I saw your name attached to a discussion regarding the Geographic Location Template. (I don't know where to start, so I started here with you.)
This template has been added to the middle of a bunch of Los Angeles neighborhoods like Pico-Union. I tend to find them disruptive in the middle of the page. As Wikipedia is about consensus though, I don't want to move or delete them without first finding out if there has been any discussions and/or decisions regarding plopping these in the middle of pages. Any insight you can give me would be greatly appreciated. Phatblackmama (talk) 19:45, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- @Phatblackmama:: Oh, geez, that is totally against our guidelines on the use of navigation templates. I would suggesting reverting the templates (citing the WP:NAVBOX guideline), and retaining textual information on geographical relationships, but working it into existing sections (we do not create entire sections for one or two sentences). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:48, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks. I removed it but retained the worded information in the "Geography" section. Please see the Talk page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pico-Union,_Los_Angeles#Navigation_box). Is there any reason I can add for NOT placing it at the bottom of the article? (I ask this because the user who placed it there is stubborn (and is just coming of a 3-day ban) and will want to know WHY it can't be at the bottom of the page. Thanks. Phatblackmama (talk) 02:26, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
- @McCandlish:I was in the process of removing the navboxes from Los Angeles neighborhood pages, and then I saw that Larchmont, Los Angeles had a Geographic Location Template that in 2014 someone moved from the center to the bottom of the page. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Larchmont,_Los_Angeles&diff=next&oldid=621745693). I know you suggested working the geographic information into the text, which I did on Pico-Union, Los Angeles and other pages, but should I have moved the boxes to the bottom like on Larchmont, Los Angeles rather than removed them? Is that what you meant when you said to "revert the templates"? Please advise Phatblackmama (talk) 19:57, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
- Removing them is fine. I'm unaware of any consensus that these templates should be used at all. They're usability disasters, and someone should probably nominate them for deletion at WP:TFD. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:53, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
- @McCandlish:I was in the process of removing the navboxes from Los Angeles neighborhood pages, and then I saw that Larchmont, Los Angeles had a Geographic Location Template that in 2014 someone moved from the center to the bottom of the page. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Larchmont,_Los_Angeles&diff=next&oldid=621745693). I know you suggested working the geographic information into the text, which I did on Pico-Union, Los Angeles and other pages, but should I have moved the boxes to the bottom like on Larchmont, Los Angeles rather than removed them? Is that what you meant when you said to "revert the templates"? Please advise Phatblackmama (talk) 19:57, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks. I removed it but retained the worded information in the "Geography" section. Please see the Talk page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pico-Union,_Los_Angeles#Navigation_box). Is there any reason I can add for NOT placing it at the bottom of the article? (I ask this because the user who placed it there is stubborn (and is just coming of a 3-day ban) and will want to know WHY it can't be at the bottom of the page. Thanks. Phatblackmama (talk) 02:26, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
@Phatblackmama: I started a long-overdue TfD here. Meant to do this several years ago. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 02:14, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
- @McCandlish: Thanks for all your assistance. You have been a real help. Again, thank you. I have added a my thoughts to the TfD.
Discussion at User talk:JDDJS
Providing such a well researched and thought out WP:3O was generous, and for me, instructional. Thanks.Grenschlep (talk) 01:58, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
- More than I or anyone would normally do, but we clearly need to make cross-conformance revisions to two guidelines, so the detail was necessary. That took about 2.5 hours. Blech. :-) — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 02:24, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
RfC is now open at Wikipedia talk:Categories, lists, and navigation templates#Resolving conflicts between (and within) PERFNAV, FILMNAV, and PERFCAT. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:15, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Nival_(company)#Nival got hacked last year. Encyclopedic to include?. Pavel Novikov (talk) 07:07, 21 July 2017 (UTC)Template:Z48
T.K. Maxx and hhgregg
I saw your RM submission at T.K. Maxx. I wonder what you think of the article title for hhgregg. —BarrelProof (talk) 09:48, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
- I would move it to H. H. Gregg fpr the same reason. But would also wait for the outcome of the current RM which may need relisting. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 02:24, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
- You may recall this conversation. Now, perhaps predictably, the wording that you inserted at MOS:TM (i.e., "Do not 'correct' the spelling, punctuation, or grammar of trademarks") is being used to assert that the article should say "HHGregg" instead of "H. H. Gregg". This seems clearly contrary to what you yourself thought that this guidance meant. I think that language needs to be improved to clarify what it is intended to mean. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:43, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
- User:BarrelProof: re-read the RM discussion, and then present the facts fully, eg mention that another editor said MOS:TMRULES should take effect in an article's text, but not the title. The guideline makes complete sense, and should be followed. How about you actually take notice of what it is saying (do not change trademarks because you do not like them), which is—I might add—a very useful piece of advice which has clearly been carefully considered, instead of arguing about this so that you may have the article consistent with the title. You would not have accepted the title being brought in-line with the article, so why should your opposite proposal be effected? –Sb2001 talk page 18:33, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
- And now the same language is being used to argue against your own RM proposal at T.K. Maxx as well. —BarrelProof (talk) 21:09, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
- Because of this obvious problem of that language being interpreted very differently from what its author intended, I removed it. —BarrelProof (talk) 22:23, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
- This is not reasonable. The idea that 'SMcCandlish wrote it, therefore it must be right' needs to end. This totally limits/removes the role of reasonable discussions. I was the one who initially mentioned moving TK Maxx, actually. Read the thread. Anyway, I will revert your MoS edit, and take it to the talk page. I see that you omitted this stage. Im my opinion, it is a major change, so there needs to be a discussion first. Take your reasoning and evidence to the talk page discussion. –Sb2001 talk page 22:57, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
- You may recall this conversation. Now, perhaps predictably, the wording that you inserted at MOS:TM (i.e., "Do not 'correct' the spelling, punctuation, or grammar of trademarks") is being used to assert that the article should say "HHGregg" instead of "H. H. Gregg". This seems clearly contrary to what you yourself thought that this guidance meant. I think that language needs to be improved to clarify what it is intended to mean. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:43, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
- @Sb2001 and BarrelProof: It's not a "do not change trademarks" matter; the company itself is inconsistent, and is not asserting any particular exact spelling/punctuation as their wordmark. It's a "do not try to mimic logos with styling shenanigans" matter. In the end, I don't really care much. It's just stupid that we have confusingly different article titles for two articles on divisions of the same company with near-identical names. Any result (use one style, use the other, or merge the articles) is preferable to this situation. The "MOS:TMRULES should take effect in an article's text, but not the title" argument is patent nonsense. We never, ever do that, and a long-standing principle is that the text and the title should be consistent; we have templates that "enforce" this, e.g. by italicizing the display of book titles in our article titles, etc. The "in text but not titles" b.s. is anti-consensus, anti-MoS activism and should be called out as such. I'm too busy to go re-argue this stuff at various RMs, and will just have to trust that the closing admins have common sense and experience (if that assumption proves faulty, or a non-admin who seems to lack these qualities produces a senseless close, take it to WP:MR as a faulty closure analysis.
I don't mind the removal of the "Do not 'correct' the spelling, punctuation, or grammar of trademarks" MoS wording, since, yes, it is being misinterpreted. If we run again into the problem of someone going around trying to impose MoS rules about plain English on trandemarks like DaimlerChrysler and iPhone, we can re-address it with clearer wording. This probably won't be necessary: between the time I inserted that language and today, MOS:TM was also updated to include a rule to permit unusual stylization when virtually all the sources are consistent about it, which is the case with things like DaimlerChrysler and iPhone; ergo, the issue should not re-arise. Removing the old wording is plus, because it prevents "we must mimic logos" misinterpretation that directly conflicts with other parts of MOS:TM.
I've rethought this and commented at WT:MOSTM.PS: Neither I nor anyone else I'm aware of holds that whatever I add to MoS is "right". While I have a much higher than average rate of getting logical refinements to MoS to stick, they do not all do so, and I've changed my mind over time about some of those that people have raised issues with. I do listen, and I do learn. That said, MoS is in far better shape today than it was when I arrived at it over a decade ago and started working on it. I'll elect not to take Sb2001's comment as an implication that my work there isn't of value. It's among the work of which I'm proudest. My Wikipedia side mission to eradicate inconsistencies, conflicts, and inclarities in the guidelines' wording, remove WP:CREEP and nationalistic or other prescriptivist nonsense, and insert new rules that prove necessary because of repeated disputes over trivia, has saved us probably many thousands of community man-hours of pointless style fighting. No shit.
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 02:46, 13 August 2017 (UTC)- I think it is important that you read the RM discussion before making assumptions. As I said here, it was another editor who said that the title is different to the article ... I disagree with this PoV. And no—I was not suggesting that your work is worthless. I am really quite disappointed that you would think that. However much you may dislike my contribution history, I am still awn editor on here who wants to make a positive difference. 'The "in text but not titles" b.s. is anti-consensus, anti-MoS activism and should be called out as such': if you meant that as a swipe a me, I clearly got you wrong. Despite all of your scrutiny of my work, I thought, 'Well, at least he is bothered. He wants to do the right thing, and will understand my lack-of-experience is the reason for these edits'. I am staring to doubt that now. Maybe you need to read WP:AGF yourself, instead of just tagging it. I always assume good faith; I thought you did too. Maybe not. Well, anyway, it is good to see you back from your break. –Sb2001 talk page 02:59, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- @Sb2001: I know you were reporting what another editor said about title/text disagreement; sorry if I seemed to imply otherwise. I also indicated I was not assuming you thought my work was pointless. I guess I'm having clarity issues today. I did elaborate on why it's not pointless because I have a lot of talk-page stalkers and sometimes I write here with them in mind. Heh. I'm sure you do mean to make a positive difference, and I'm not criticizing you in any way in the above. I really must be having communication issues today; I'll chalk it up to being distracted with other stuff and writing in haste. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 03:53, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- Add this to the fact that it was 4 am here ... bound to be issues in clarity/understanding. Well—at least that is sorted. I will deal with the other stuff at the relevant talk pages. –Sb2001 talk page 13:27, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- I was tired, too! :-) — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 21:58, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- Add this to the fact that it was 4 am here ... bound to be issues in clarity/understanding. Well—at least that is sorted. I will deal with the other stuff at the relevant talk pages. –Sb2001 talk page 13:27, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- @Sb2001: I know you were reporting what another editor said about title/text disagreement; sorry if I seemed to imply otherwise. I also indicated I was not assuming you thought my work was pointless. I guess I'm having clarity issues today. I did elaborate on why it's not pointless because I have a lot of talk-page stalkers and sometimes I write here with them in mind. Heh. I'm sure you do mean to make a positive difference, and I'm not criticizing you in any way in the above. I really must be having communication issues today; I'll chalk it up to being distracted with other stuff and writing in haste. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 03:53, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- I think it is important that you read the RM discussion before making assumptions. As I said here, it was another editor who said that the title is different to the article ... I disagree with this PoV. And no—I was not suggesting that your work is worthless. I am really quite disappointed that you would think that. However much you may dislike my contribution history, I am still awn editor on here who wants to make a positive difference. 'The "in text but not titles" b.s. is anti-consensus, anti-MoS activism and should be called out as such': if you meant that as a swipe a me, I clearly got you wrong. Despite all of your scrutiny of my work, I thought, 'Well, at least he is bothered. He wants to do the right thing, and will understand my lack-of-experience is the reason for these edits'. I am staring to doubt that now. Maybe you need to read WP:AGF yourself, instead of just tagging it. I always assume good faith; I thought you did too. Maybe not. Well, anyway, it is good to see you back from your break. –Sb2001 talk page 02:59, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
Please comment on Talk:Elijah Daniel
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Elijah Daniel. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
RfA
File:New Zealand TW-17.svg | Thanks for supporting my run for administrator. I am honored and grateful. ) Cullen328 Let's discuss it 00:33, 24 July 2017 (UTC) |
Please comment on Talk:George Duke discography
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:George Duke discography. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
RFC
Since you have so little understanding of the core elements of the issues, I had hoped you would withdraw your RFC and work together to propose something that cuts to the core. It is premature to argue about language until we even have the core elements resolved.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:37, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- I don't mean to point to you like it sounded. No one quite knows what the core elements are. We need an RFC that will get people to say what kind of content we want protected by this guideline and what type we want to discourage. That is going to be better served by something other than "Hey do you like this language". We should start with an RFC that says. Do you want A, B, C, D, etc. type of content in X type of navbox and X, Y, Z, etc. in Z type of navbox. Then, when we know what everyone wants in or out, we can work on the language. Jumping to the language is not likely to result in consensus on this topic. I won't be online much over the weekend, but next week I will be putting together an RFC to isolate specific content types. You are free to help me put that together. I can tell you for certain we are not going to achieve any consensus with your RFC.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:51, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- @TonyTheTiger: No worries, let's just work past it. I think we simply have sharply differing philosophies of what RfCs are and what they're for. Too many people see them as a "voting" mechanism. What you want to do sounds like a good approach, but only to one set of issues (navboxes). I'm principally concerned with a) reconciling the conflicts between PERFNAV and PERFCAT, and b) reconciling the conflicts within each guideline that are leading to LAWYER/GAMING problems and general confusion and dispute. The main way to fix both of these problem is to use the exact same "yes, we really mean everyone in the industry, there is no magical exception for a specific job title" broad definition in both documents, and then – only when there is intended to be one – outline specific possible exceptions for specific guideline line-items. What you want to do only comes in at the end of that part. And then there's c) the sharp mismatch between the "primary creators" nonsense and what we've actually been doing for years, which is something like what I formulated as a inseparable identification of the bio subject with the work and vice versa – whatever language we really need if isn't that. We know for sure it has jack to do with job titles, only with reader navigation expectations. If we get any progress on these three things I'll be happy. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:06, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- O.K. so what I think you are saying is that while we're in the middle of a crisis regarding the navbox issues of controversies of what you want PERFNAV and FILMNAV to say, I think it is a good time for us to figure out why they are out of synch with the category issues of PERFCAT, which is almost as ridiculous.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:15, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- Sure, whatever gets the ball actually rolling. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 03:58, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- O.K. so what I think you are saying is that while we're in the middle of a crisis regarding the navbox issues of controversies of what you want PERFNAV and FILMNAV to say, I think it is a good time for us to figure out why they are out of synch with the category issues of PERFCAT, which is almost as ridiculous.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:15, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- @TonyTheTiger: No worries, let's just work past it. I think we simply have sharply differing philosophies of what RfCs are and what they're for. Too many people see them as a "voting" mechanism. What you want to do sounds like a good approach, but only to one set of issues (navboxes). I'm principally concerned with a) reconciling the conflicts between PERFNAV and PERFCAT, and b) reconciling the conflicts within each guideline that are leading to LAWYER/GAMING problems and general confusion and dispute. The main way to fix both of these problem is to use the exact same "yes, we really mean everyone in the industry, there is no magical exception for a specific job title" broad definition in both documents, and then – only when there is intended to be one – outline specific possible exceptions for specific guideline line-items. What you want to do only comes in at the end of that part. And then there's c) the sharp mismatch between the "primary creators" nonsense and what we've actually been doing for years, which is something like what I formulated as a inseparable identification of the bio subject with the work and vice versa – whatever language we really need if isn't that. We know for sure it has jack to do with job titles, only with reader navigation expectations. If we get any progress on these three things I'll be happy. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:06, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
Please comment on Talk:John Oliver
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:John Oliver. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Please comment on Talk:White House Press Secretary
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:White House Press Secretary. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
Please comment on Talk:Lindy West
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Lindy West. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
Please comment on Talk:Battle of Ia Drang
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Battle of Ia Drang. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biographies
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biographies. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
Please comment on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
Nomination for deletion of Template:Collapse compact
Template:Collapse compact has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Frietjes (talk) 13:54, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
Merger discussion for Monotypic taxon and Monospecificity
Please comment on Talk:Ted Kaczynski
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Ted Kaczynski. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
Books and Bytes - Issue 23
Books & Bytes
Issue 23, June-July 2017
- Library card
- User Group update
- Global branches update
- Spotlight: Combating misinformation, fake news, and censorship
- Bytes in brief
Chinese, Arabic and Yoruba versions of Books & Bytes are now available in meta!
Sent by MediaWiki message delivery on behalf of The Wikipedia Library team --MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:03, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
New Page Reviewer Newsletter
Backlog update:
- The new page backlog is currently at 16,991 pages. We have worked hard to decrease from over 22,000, but more hard work is needed! Please consider reviewing even just a few pages a a day.
Technology update:
- Rentier has created a NPP browser in WMF Labs that allows you to search new unreviewed pages using keywords and categories.
General project update:
- The Wikimedia Foundation Community Tech team is working with the community to implement the autoconfirmed article creation trial. The trial is currently set to start on 7 September 2017, pending final approval of the technical features.
- Please remember to focus on the quality of review: correct tagging of articles and not tagbombing are important. Searching for potential copyright violations is also important, and it can be aided by Earwig's Copyvio Detector, which can be added to your toolbar for ease of use with this user script.
- To keep up with the latest conversation on New Pages Patrol or to ask questions, you can go to Wikipedia talk:New pages patrol/Reviewers and add it to your watchlist.
If you wish to opt-out of future mailings, go here. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:33, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
Consequent anthropomorphization?
With this edit to Journalese, you introduced the text "and consequent anthropomorphization", which was flagged as a misspelling. I don't think you mean "Anthropomorphism", the attribution of human traits, emotions, and intentions to non-human entities. Can you fix this? I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. Thanks, [[User:|wbm1058]] (talk) 12:23, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
- Let me Google that for you: [12]. :-) Anthropomorphization is the use or application of anthropmorphism, the act or process of anthropomorphizing. You need a better spell-checker. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:34, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
- @Wbm1058: ping just in case you didn't notice I'd replied. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 08:35, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for the ping; I hadn't seen your reply as I'm not watching this page. I might have gotten back here on my next pass of the linked misspellings list. Anthropomorphization is no. 8 on the latest version of that weekly report. My spell-checker is fallible as it's updated by Wikipedia editors. Odd that it had been tagged as a misspelling 11 years. I just reverted to the version of 9 July 2006. But, as I was still confused by the destination of the redirect, I found Anthropomorphism vs Anthropomorphization - What's the difference? Anthropomorphism attributes human characteristics and behavior, or as the lead says, "attribution of human traits, emotions, and intentions to non-human entities". I wasn't following the logic that gave the 1990s human emotions and intentions when the decade "saw" an increase in crime. But I do follow what you mean by endowing the 1990s with human qualities (attributing human characteristics to something that is nonhuman). The sentence endows the 1990s with human eyes, but nothing more than that. So I changed it to link to the Wiktionary definition. – wbm1058 (talk) 13:07, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
- @Wbm1058: I made a bug report at Wikipedia talk:Database reports/Linked misspellings. The link change seems like hair-splitting to me. The WP article is clearly wrong (an error of omission) in only covering a single meaning. The solution is to fix the article, not sweep it under the rug by linking to a different one. I guess the link change is okay short-term, since it could help a reader understand the meaning. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:12, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
PS: This single-word change is probably sufficient, though I've not read the article in detail. Having eyes to see things with constitutes a "trait" in the meaning of this article, the Wiktionary article, other dictionaries, and the context in which I linked it. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:15, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- Since I made this edit, the bot will remove it from the linked mispellings list on the next run, since the word is no longer tagged with {{R from misspelling}}. The bot runs every Thursday. wbm1058 (talk) 01:46, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- Right-o. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 02:06, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- Since I made this edit, the bot will remove it from the linked mispellings list on the next run, since the word is no longer tagged with {{R from misspelling}}. The bot runs every Thursday. wbm1058 (talk) 01:46, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- @Wbm1058: I made a bug report at Wikipedia talk:Database reports/Linked misspellings. The link change seems like hair-splitting to me. The WP article is clearly wrong (an error of omission) in only covering a single meaning. The solution is to fix the article, not sweep it under the rug by linking to a different one. I guess the link change is okay short-term, since it could help a reader understand the meaning. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:12, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for the ping; I hadn't seen your reply as I'm not watching this page. I might have gotten back here on my next pass of the linked misspellings list. Anthropomorphization is no. 8 on the latest version of that weekly report. My spell-checker is fallible as it's updated by Wikipedia editors. Odd that it had been tagged as a misspelling 11 years. I just reverted to the version of 9 July 2006. But, as I was still confused by the destination of the redirect, I found Anthropomorphism vs Anthropomorphization - What's the difference? Anthropomorphism attributes human characteristics and behavior, or as the lead says, "attribution of human traits, emotions, and intentions to non-human entities". I wasn't following the logic that gave the 1990s human emotions and intentions when the decade "saw" an increase in crime. But I do follow what you mean by endowing the 1990s with human qualities (attributing human characteristics to something that is nonhuman). The sentence endows the 1990s with human eyes, but nothing more than that. So I changed it to link to the Wiktionary definition. – wbm1058 (talk) 13:07, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
Change to RfC at NOT
You participated at this RfC; the proposal has changed a bit. Just providing you notice of that. Jytdog (talk) 17:33, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
Please comment on Talk:Jared Taylor
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Jared Taylor. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
You've got mail
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.
Trusttri (talk) 06:26, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
Page mover granted
Hello, SMcCandlish. Your account has been granted the "extendedmover" user right, either following a request for it or demonstrating familiarity with working with article names and moving pages. You are now able to rename pages without leaving behind a redirect, and move subpages when moving the parent page(s).
Please take a moment to review Wikipedia:Page mover for more information on this user right, especially the criteria for moving pages without leaving redirect. Please remember to follow post-move cleanup procedures and make link corrections where necessary, including broken double-redirects when suppressredirect
is used. This can be done using Special:WhatLinksHere. It is also very important that no one else be allowed to access your account, so you should consider taking a few moments to secure your password. As with all user rights, be aware that if abused, or used in controversial ways without consensus, your page mover status can be revoked.
Useful links:
- Wikipedia:Requested moves
- Category:Articles to be moved, for article renaming requests awaiting action.
If you do not want the page mover right anymore, just let me know, and I'll remove it. Thank you, and happy editing! Alex ShihTalk 01:56, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
- @Alex Shih: Thank you. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:54, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
Please comment on Template talk:Birth date and age
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Template talk:Birth date and age. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
Please comment on Talk:Bee Gees
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Bee Gees. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
Arbcom
Thanks for your recent posts there, much appreciated. Just one thing, it's normally TRM, rather than TPM, but we all know who you meant. Oddly I think you've done that before. Anyhow, cheers for the independent assessment. Arbcom won't do anything about it, it would make some of them look incredibly stupid, but I very much appreciate your additions. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:39, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- I dunno whereTF I'm getting "TPM" from. It's not even an acronym that means anything to me. Derpa! Anyway, I feel pretty much compelled to comment on the matter given the repeat of history I'm seeing. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:50, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks again. The admin who went from pillar to post to accuse me of lies without any kind of evidence was Arthur Rubin. There's another Arbcom case for that currently in the "Evidence" phase but I think the community has become utterly dismayed by the comprehensive ineptitude of Arbcom. The situation went through ANI (as I think you said) and it was a landslide "Admin fail" result yet Arbcom, in their infinite "wisdom", decided to make it a full-blown case, and included an analysis of my behaviour as part of it (which, of course, completely derails the point). A week in and almost nothing has been added to the page. I hope Arbcom realise what this means and learns from it, but somehow I doubt it. Add to that the mysterious behaviour and disappearance of one of the Arbs who clearly should be site-banned and the personal attacks and uncivil commentary from at least one of the other Arbs (who hasn't recused), and you get a bunch of jokers who wouldn't be fit to run a jumble sale, let alone arbitrate on one of the busiest and most vistied websites in history. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:56, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- I never bring RFARB cases myself, despite frequently having cause to. Tar baby. Every time I've drafted one, I've slapped myself and come to my senses. I don't have beefs with the current sitting members (aside from one supervoter who caused a year-long problem as an RfC closer, but that's just a reason to not re-elect him, and he doesn't seem to be a bad guy). They did resolve a very long-term MoS disruption problem that badly needed to be dealt with. But who doesn't have a beef with how the "institution" operates? — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 21:28, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- I didn't bring this case either. It was, as far as I was concerned, fully covered off at ANI and just needed some actual abritration at ANI to deal with it rather than "referendum it", somehow dragging me into it as befits Arbcom's latest proclivity to get me banned no matter what. This odd perception that they are somehow better, more responsible, better place to judge etc than the average editor is way off the mark. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:35, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- I seem to have missed something serious somewhere. Since when has the community – which has the power to CBAN people indefinitely and at least theoretically the ability to close ArbCom and replace it with something else – lost the ability to desysop without ArbCom approval (more likely interference)? A clear ANI mandate for a desysopping, well, is one. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:59, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
- The community never had it. There have been a half-dozen proposals but every one has been shot down. As such, ARBCOM has been the only entity able to remove someone's bit. --Izno (talk) 01:05, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
- I guess I fail at WikiBarrister. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:16, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
- The community never had it. There have been a half-dozen proposals but every one has been shot down. As such, ARBCOM has been the only entity able to remove someone's bit. --Izno (talk) 01:05, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
- I seem to have missed something serious somewhere. Since when has the community – which has the power to CBAN people indefinitely and at least theoretically the ability to close ArbCom and replace it with something else – lost the ability to desysop without ArbCom approval (more likely interference)? A clear ANI mandate for a desysopping, well, is one. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:59, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
- I didn't bring this case either. It was, as far as I was concerned, fully covered off at ANI and just needed some actual abritration at ANI to deal with it rather than "referendum it", somehow dragging me into it as befits Arbcom's latest proclivity to get me banned no matter what. This odd perception that they are somehow better, more responsible, better place to judge etc than the average editor is way off the mark. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:35, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- I never bring RFARB cases myself, despite frequently having cause to. Tar baby. Every time I've drafted one, I've slapped myself and come to my senses. I don't have beefs with the current sitting members (aside from one supervoter who caused a year-long problem as an RfC closer, but that's just a reason to not re-elect him, and he doesn't seem to be a bad guy). They did resolve a very long-term MoS disruption problem that badly needed to be dealt with. But who doesn't have a beef with how the "institution" operates? — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 21:28, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks again. The admin who went from pillar to post to accuse me of lies without any kind of evidence was Arthur Rubin. There's another Arbcom case for that currently in the "Evidence" phase but I think the community has become utterly dismayed by the comprehensive ineptitude of Arbcom. The situation went through ANI (as I think you said) and it was a landslide "Admin fail" result yet Arbcom, in their infinite "wisdom", decided to make it a full-blown case, and included an analysis of my behaviour as part of it (which, of course, completely derails the point). A week in and almost nothing has been added to the page. I hope Arbcom realise what this means and learns from it, but somehow I doubt it. Add to that the mysterious behaviour and disappearance of one of the Arbs who clearly should be site-banned and the personal attacks and uncivil commentary from at least one of the other Arbs (who hasn't recused), and you get a bunch of jokers who wouldn't be fit to run a jumble sale, let alone arbitrate on one of the busiest and most vistied websites in history. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:56, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
WP:RY is now an essay, by the way. An RFC concluded it wasn't and should never have been a Wikpiedia guideline. I'm sure you can find the "debate". The Rambling Man (talk) 20:52, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
- Yeah, I already added a whole section about that to Evidence page (of the Rubin case). PS: I was the one who dug up the original "debate" and pointed out at the recent RfC that it was improper. >;-) — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 21:01, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
Statement at Arthur Rubin Case page
Hi SMCCandlish. I've moved your statement from the case page to the evidence page as no additions should be made to the case page after the case has been accepted. Feel free to remove it from evidence and add it to another relevant page if you feel it would be better placed though. Amortias (T)(C) 21:21, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- @Amortias: Ah! Yes, sorry. I'm tired and need a big sleep. That's two wrong-page edits in one hour, so time to put down the keyboard and back away slowly. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 21:28, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- If a misplaced edit is the worst thing you've done today your probably doing better then most of us. Amortias (T)(C) 21:29, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- But two ... TWO!? That probably warrants at least a fingertip. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:53, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
- If a misplaced edit is the worst thing you've done today your probably doing better then most of us. Amortias (T)(C) 21:29, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
A barnstar for you!
The Tireless Contributor Barnstar | |
Thanks you for the Project namespace and TL/SUPPLEMENTAL updates.....been trying to get that wording right for a long time. Would love your CE skills at WP:ESSAYPAGES guideline section and the infopage Wikipedia:Essays. I try to keep them upto date with community norms, but get very little feedback. Moxy (talk) 17:08, 6 September 2017 (UTC) |
- Oh, thanks. I'll go look at those. I'm not being very comprehensive about this. Was just looking at one page and it led me to another and and another, so I've been copy-editing various essays and info pages and so on. About to propose a merge of WP:Common sense is not common and WP:NOCOMMON. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 17:12, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
- @Moxy: I twiddled with WP:Essays a bit, but didn't do a lot there. The page seems pretty good. I suspect a few key points in it could be integrated into the WP:ESSAYPAGES section, but it's harder to get edits to that page to "stick" if they're not pre-discussed. Was there anything in mind at either page that you thought needed addressing in particular? — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:30, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Notability (academics)
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Wikipedia talk:Notability (academics). Legobot (talk) 04:23, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
Have you tried...?
Ctrl+enter? I use it out of habit and having no issues with Chrome -- on the odd occasion I use it. Of course, you could always use Lynx, or just contribute to Wikipedia using the power of your mind! Keira1996 03:07, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- @Keira1996: Well, it's even weirder than that. It's happening when the edit window auto-linewraps at the end of the line, and does so between various code elements that aren't just plain text, e.g. between
...blah blah [[link here]].
and the<span ...>...
that begins my rendered sig. I'm mostly encountering this "getting an unintended line break with Chrome, on Mac OS X" immediately before my sig, though it's also happened between two links in series or two templates or whatever, just not (so far) plain alpha-numeric ASCII. Been happening for several days now, and I haven't discerned a fixed pattern in any more detail than that yet. I'll see about installing a new Chrome tonight, in case it's some regression they've already fixed. PS: I love Lynx and Links for various purposes (mostly to do with system administration), but can't imagine them as practical for WP; I tried it once and gave up, several years ago. PPS: People already complain that, at least on policy talk pages, I insert too much stuff directly from my own mind. LOL. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 04:17, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
Logging of old sanctions
Saw your comment. This is a topic I've also wondered about (the question of where Arbcom should put old sanctions). The January 2015 motion says that old notifications and warning 'are not sanctions' which may mean they wanted *not* to carry over the old notices (later known as 'alerts') but they did want to carry over actual bans and blocks into the DSLOG, regardless of how old they were. So logically, we would have *all* the pre May 2014 notifications left in the case logs, and all the actual sanctions removed from there. So when we look at the enforcement log of WP:ARBATC we should still see all the old notifications listed. And in fact, what you are objecting to seems to be a notification of yourself? So now that I review this for the N-th time, maybe the system is consistent after all, at least for ARBATC? EdJohnston (talk) 18:53, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Template:Ps It's not consistent, with anything, even most of the other case pages (even those that still have such entries do not have them consistently moved after a particular cut-off date; it's just random "did we get around it yet" scattering). Current notifications and warnings aren't done on the case pages, so it's inconsistent in that more direct regard. When I asked about this previously, I was told that the only reason they're still on the case page is because a clerk hadn't gotten around to moving them yet. Honestly, I really don't care about rationalizations for why to not do the cleanup; they're weak and don't mean anything substantive. What's substantive is that their current location intensely biases things against certain specific individuals for no reason, and it also makes the actual log pages incomplete and misleading. That's two serious reasons to move the entries versus one suppositional un-reason to not move them. And no, I'm not talking about the entry about me in particular (which is just a notice), but all of them that still remain on all these case pages. It obviously stands to reason that the problem would be more likely to be brought up by someone whose felt their consequence. Implying that I have some personal-only motive is a victim-blaming exercise. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:17, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- Can you point to some items that you think should have been moved into the DSLOG, according to the language of the 2015 motion? It looks to me that the entries in the WP:ARBATC case are now in compliance with the motion as written. There was no mandate to remove the old notifications/warnings from the cases, so far as I can tell. EdJohnston (talk) 00:31, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- Hmph. The codicil at the end of it would, it appears, put you in the technical right on this, and will keep things in the ethically wrong status quo, so I'll open an amendment request. I hate filing ArbCom motions, but this needs to be done. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:26, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- Can you point to some items that you think should have been moved into the DSLOG, according to the language of the 2015 motion? It looks to me that the entries in the WP:ARBATC case are now in compliance with the motion as written. There was no mandate to remove the old notifications/warnings from the cases, so far as I can tell. EdJohnston (talk) 00:31, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
Help with getting MOS:TENSE established in an article
Hi, Mr. McCandlish,
I see that you're a frequent good contributor to this MOS and discussion about it. I was wondering if maybe you'd be so kind as to offer your opinions and other help elsewhere as well. Have you been familiarized with MOS:TENSE? If so, what's your opinion about making sure it's applied? The MOS is a set of rules that applies to every article, correct? Would you please be so kind as to lend me your hand then?
Thanks if so, 174.23.148.58 (talk) 19:09, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- This isn't specific enough to act on. Where is the dispute, and what is its nature? — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:18, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- Hi again, SM, and thanks for your reply! Well, I just wanted to find out what your core understandings and beliefs are about these kinds of things, and and then see from there if we might work well together. Cool?
- 174.23.180.206 (talk)
- I can't offer anything specific without knowing what the context is. There isn't anything magically special about MOS:TENSE; it's applied to the extent any other MoS section is. They're all guidelines, and what that means is covered at WP:Policies and guidelines. They're not inviolable laws, but should generally be followed unless there's a clear contextual reason no to, that outweighs the reasons to do so. That varies on a case-by-case basis. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:19, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- 174.23.180.206 (talk)
As long as I'm asking you for MOS help...
Also, as long as I have you here reading my request for MOS-establishment help, let me ask you for your opinion on some other things, okay?
- Which to you is more accurate: calling abbreviations in which letters are pronounced individually, like a lot of initialisms such as "CD," "ATM," and "LCD" are, as "acronyms," even though they are not (since they aren't pronounced as if they were just single words like "LASER," "SCUBA," "RADAR," "PIN," and "VIN," etc. are, and so those abbreviation examples are acronyms (even as "laser," "scuba," "radar," and probably several others, have long been commonly lowercased), or just calling them "initialisms" when they are indeed NOT acronyms?
- Which to you is clearer: saying that a given model of computer or game system looks like just a "stereo" (which could be anything from a non-portable, traditional home stereo system, to a vehicle stereo system, to a tiny little MP3 player), or saying that it looks like a traditional home stereo system component?
- And then, as a follow-up regarding systems that look like home-stereo equipment, if they are still computers, then which makes more sense: to compare them with other devices that look like just "computers" (even though these still are computers, so they look like their own unique type of computer), or to compare them against computers that look more like traditional computers?
- Which do you believe is clearer: that when a specific computer-derived entertainment system can be converted into that computer by adding back specific peripherals such as a floppy disk drive like the derived-from computer model the system came with has, to simply say "disk drive" (which is ambiguous because it can refer to the CD drive that the machine already has, or to a hard disk drive which is only secondary to the floppy drive on those computers), or to be more specific by saying "floppy disk drive"?
Thanks for your opinions,
174.23.148.58 (talk) 19:29, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- I've taken the liberty of numbering the points above for detailed response here.
- First off, before this goes any further at all, please see WP:NOT#BATTLEGROUND, WP:NOT#ADVOCACY, WP:GREATWRONGS, and WP:No original research. If you've come here to engage in debate about nomenclatural trivia, and to push your views about them, you're going to end up getting sanctioned. Wikipedia has a sharply reduced patience these days for "style warrior" behavior. I'm not tracking your edits or anything, and make no accusation; the question just seems pointed toward trying to "win" a tedious argument everyone is already tired of. (We've been over it many, many times before here.)
Second, the distinction you're trying to impose is not recognized by many people at all, is artificial and recent, and framed the way you've framed it, simply factually incorrect. The term "initialism" was invented, in a single journal article, in the late 1960s or early 1970s (I can dig up the cite if you want), and has been adopted by very few reliable sources. Even the few mainstream style guides that mention the term do so in a dubious tone (e.g. Chicago Manual of Style). Acronyms in the original, continuing, and dominant sense of the term include everything that some people want to call initialisms. Initialisms are a subset of acronyms. The idea that the term acronym can only be applied to those that are said as words, like AIDS, is a language-change, usage-prescription "activism" position about how things logically should be according to a particular camp. It does not reflect the reality of actual usage. To the extent that the term "initialism" has caught on at all, the actual usage around it has evolved since that paper, to use "word acronym" to refer to those that are said aloud as words, specifically because the attempt to redefine the base term acronym to only mean those cases has been an abject failure. If it doesn't work after approx. 45 years, it is time to give the hell up and stop beating the dead horse. >;-)
That said, I and many others consider the clarified distinction actually useful, and we write things like "acronyms (sometimes divided into word acronyms like AIDS and initialisms like FBI)". This is the treatment that should be used in WP articles about such matters. I don't think anyone cares who uses what terms on talk pages, but if you use "acronym" in an idiolectal manner to mean "only acronyms pronounced as words" without explaining that this is what you mean, people are going to misunderstand you and it's going to lead to a lot of wasted time and patience in discussions.But I cannot stress enough that if you try to insist, either in articles or in WP:MOS discussions that '"CD," "ATM," and "LCD" are not acronyms", and other such WP:TRUTH pronouncements that actual reliable sources on English contradict, in large numbers, then nothing good is going to come of it. - I would something more like the second, but that exact phrase is unnecessarily tumid. "A home stereo-system component" is more concise. I agree just "stereo" is too vague; that's what I call the thing in my car, and most people today no longer even own a multi-component rack stereo system. The word "traditional" doesn't really apply; there is no quaint, folkloric stereo to be found by anthropologists, still preserved in the Ozarks or among the nomadic tribes of Siberia. LOL. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:52, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- Again, "traditional" doesn't work here. Computers and their form-factor are market trends not "traditions". As an anthropologist by training, I get miffed when people misuse words like that (and "culture", and "community", and "myth", among others). Without seeing the discussion and the component to which it refers, it's hard to say what good wording would be. I don't like false dichotomy questions like this; there is no either/or here. MoS rule no. 1, in its lead section, is to rewrite to avoid conflict or confusion. At a blind guess, I would say to use something like "looks similar to a desktop computer case", or something more specific, e.g. "looks similar to a mini-tower personal computer", or whatever the case may be. If that's really necessary. Often, such comparisons are subjective and not actually encyclopedic.
- "Disk drive" is ambiguous, so be specific. Technically a CD/DVD drive is a "disc drive", but many people are not aware of this micro-distinction. It's better to refer to hard drives as "hard drives", though. If the device really does use a floppy drive, say so and link to the topic (lots of kids today have no idea what a floppy disk is).
- First off, before this goes any further at all, please see WP:NOT#BATTLEGROUND, WP:NOT#ADVOCACY, WP:GREATWRONGS, and WP:No original research. If you've come here to engage in debate about nomenclatural trivia, and to push your views about them, you're going to end up getting sanctioned. Wikipedia has a sharply reduced patience these days for "style warrior" behavior. I'm not tracking your edits or anything, and make no accusation; the question just seems pointed toward trying to "win" a tedious argument everyone is already tired of. (We've been over it many, many times before here.)
- Hope this helps, in more ways than one. PS: If you find yourself in a lot of heated arguments (especially over trivia), the essay I wrote about my own learning experience in this regard may be helpful. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:52, 9 September 2017 (UTC)