John Carter (talk | contribs) →Re works-in-progress: comment |
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''''''Wikipedia does not care about you or me being qualified scholars. Wikipedia is not a scholarly site, but a summary of sources that speak for themselves. We all have the right to edit, but there are rules to make sure that proper sources are used for appropriate articles and editors are civil. If you want to accuse me of a Christian bias:''' |
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{{cot|1=Please read this.}} |
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[[File:ArchTutu.JPG|thumb|right|Let us work for peace in the World |date=4 Aug 2010 |Archbishop [[Desmond Tutu]] comes to my home in South Africa at the height of our struggle. The house of Nelson Mandela was just down the road.]] |
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At Wikipedia we must all try to edit from a NPOV. On occasion my Faith has been called into question. Indeed some have honestly wondered how I can write what I have about the Historical Jesus and still be a Christian. |
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The answer is simple, my relationship with God never had anything to do with history or archeology. Let me explain... |
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'''Christianity not relevant in our modern world''' As a young litigation lawyer, I believed in God, but felt that Christianity was no longer relevant in our modern world. Jesus' teachings such as "Thou shalt not kill" "Love your enemy" "You can not serve both God and Money" were just not relevant in these modern times. I believed in the death penalty, war, material wealth. I did unto others before they did unto me. I did not get angry, I got even...and a bit! |
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'''Spiritual awakening''' Then, a series of events made me reconsider my beliefs and come to the conclusion that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was still relevant today. I read a great deal about people who still believed in the Gospel, including Mahatma Gandhi, Dr Martin Luther King Jr., etc., etc. This led to a Spiritual awaking that forever changed my life. |
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'''South Africa''' It was here, working for Archbishop Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela that my faith was put to the test. Could love and non violence really bring down the Apartheid government? We were out-gunned, out-matched in every way. What the Archbishop was preaching made no earthly sense. Yet before my eyes I witnessed this racist government fall. As I stepped out in faith on a daily basis, I experienced God in a real way. In my heart I came to believe that the Gospel of Christ was the most powerful force in the Universe. The Roman Empire never stood a chance. Nor did the British Empire in India, or, for that matter, Segregation in the South. |
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'''Twelve Step Program''' Several years later I was approached by a group who wanted to use my Church. They explained to me that their program was basic Christianity without many of the offensive "buzz words" that had been added over the years. |
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# Confessing that we were miserable sinners became ''"We admitted we were powerless over alcohol or drugs etc -- that our lives had become unmanageable."'' |
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# Faith was changed to ''"Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity."'' |
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# Accepting Jesus Christ as our Personal Saviour became ''"Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him."'' |
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# Accepting that we had all sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God was changed to ''"Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves."'' |
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# Making our confession was reworded to ''"Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs."'' |
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# Repentance became ''"Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character."'' |
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# Bin saved became ''"Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings."'' |
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# ''"Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all."'' |
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# ''"Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others."'' |
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# Continued confession became ''"Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it."'' |
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# ''"Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out."'' |
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# Born Again & Witnessing became ''"Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others, and to practice these principles in all our affairs."'' |
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This simplified "Gospel" has transformed the lives of millions. It is truly powerful regardless of the packaging. My faith finds form in Anglicanism because of the freedom from "strict dogma", but I have seen the power of Christ in all denominations. Walking with Christ for these many, many years has given me a faith that allows me to edit Wikipedia from a NPOV. The reason is that my faith is not based on the "historical evidence" that has survived to 2014 but rather it is based upon my experience over a very very long time...and now to have a Pope whose focus is love, forgiveness and caring for those in need rather than dogma is a true blessing! |
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|[[/archive7|Archive 7]] (2014) |
|[[/archive7|Archive 7]] (2014) |
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== Your "drafts" == |
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You have several pages that say they are drafts for review. However, they aren't actually drafts because they are forks of actual articles (and include considerable copyright violation). What is the purpose of these pages? [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 12:32, 15 July 2014 (UTC) |
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== Internal copyright violations== |
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This is why I referred to copyright violations. Although you can copy or move text from one or more pages into another page [[WP:Copyrights|Wikipedia's licensing]] does require that you provide attribution to the original contributor(s). When copying within Wikipedia, this is supplied at minimum in an [[Help:Edit summary|edit summary]] at the page into which you've copied content. It is good practice, especially if copying is extensive, to also place a properly formatted {{tl|copied}} template on the talk pages of the source and destination. The attribution has been provided for this situation, but if you have copied material between pages before, even if it was a long time ago, please provide attribution for that duplication. You can read more about the procedure and the reasons at [[Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia]]. Thank you. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 12:32, 15 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:As always I thank you for your help. |
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:'''Re Proposed edits''' |
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#The article [[Celsus]] should be edited to read as follows >>>[[User:Ret.Prof/Celsus]] |
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#The article [[Jesus in the Talmud]] should be edited to read as follows >>>[[User:Ret.Prof/Jesus in the Talmud]] |
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#The article [[Josephus on Jesus]] should be edited to read as follows >>>[[User:Ret.Prof/Josephus on Jesus]] |
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::I am preparing drafts on my user page in order to try to avoid continued edit warring. Then after my proposed edits have been vetted I am planning to resume editing. They will be integrated into the aforementioned articles (NOT new articles). I believe I have complied with all Wikipedia policy regarding "proposed edits" including copyright rules. However, I will review this policy and in the meantime stop working on my proposed drafts. Thanks again for your time. Cheers [[User:Ret.Prof|Ret.Prof]] ([[User talk:Ret.Prof#top|talk]]) 12:52, 15 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::When I was new I had no idea about this and didn't even understand the messages I was getting(which weren't this clear). Thanks. You will still have to add any changes piecemeal of course. I think you are asking a lot to expect a review of something that is partially yours, partially the work of many others. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 13:04, 15 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::I think I have found the misunderstanding. I am not proposing new articles but new edits to existing articles. Proposed edits to the existing articles are OK. I am about to resume work on my proposed edits. If I have missed anything please let me know. Thanks again for your time. - [[User:Ret.Prof|Ret.Prof]] ([[User talk:Ret.Prof#top|talk]]) 17:17, 15 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::I have to assume there is a mistake in your saying "#The article [[Celsus]] should be edited to read as follows >>>[[User:Ret.Prof/Celsus]]" and "#The article [[Celsus]] should be edited to read as follows >>>[[User:Ret.Prof/Josephus on Jesus]]" as you propose above. Also, I believe that it would probably be the case that the entire community could take part in discussion before changes were made but welcome Courcelles' comments on that and the disposition of the draft pages afterwards. [[User:John Carter|John Carter]] ([[User talk:John Carter|talk]]) 00:36, 17 July 2014 (UTC) |
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I have requested independent oversight of your draft articles by a former arb [[User talk:Courcelles#Re draft articles|here]]. [[User:Ignocrates|Ignocrates]] ([[User talk:Ignocrates|talk]]) 00:17, 17 July 2014 (UTC) |
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==Stepping back== |
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This was a good faith effort to end the edit warring. Obviously I failed. Therefore I will be once again stepping back from Wikipedia. - [[User:Ret.Prof|Ret.Prof]] ([[User talk:Ret.Prof#top|talk]]) 01:03, 17 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*Being kind of out of everything I don't know exactly what's happening, but I wish you the best. Summer is over before you know: get out of it what you can while you can. I'll be in the office or the classroom if you need me. Take care, [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 02:11, 17 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:Ret.Prof, "stepping back" is exactly the wrong thing to do. You have every right to develop draft versions of articles in your user space, as long as they are appropriately labeled as works-in-progress. I encourage you to stick with your efforts to improve the content. Whether your changes are accepted as improvements in main space is up to the community at-large. [[User:Ignocrates|Ignocrates]] ([[User talk:Ignocrates|talk]]) 03:28, 17 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:I find some of the comments starting this thread unusual. Please indicate exatly where the edit warring you say you are trying to end is taking place. [[User:John Carter|John Carter]] ([[User talk:John Carter|talk]]) 16:09, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
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==Response to email== |
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Thank you for your query via email. I've looked at this page as you requested. The comments to you by other editors all seem in order and I'm not sure what your concerns are. Would you be able to specify specific concerns? [[User:Sunray|Sunray]] ([[User talk:Sunray|talk]]) 15:57, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:{{u|Sunray}}, I think it would be better to continue your dialog with Ret.Prof by email. He seems to have approached you in confidence, and it probably should be kept that way. [[User:Ignocrates|Ignocrates]] ([[User talk:Ignocrates|talk]]) 18:12, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::Ret. Prof contacted me following a mediation case. I am on the Mediation Committee. It is usually not appropriate for committee members to discuss things privately with mediation participants. Therefore I chose this way to respond. [[User:Sunray|Sunray]] ([[User talk:Sunray|talk]]) 17:58, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Oh, I see. Thanks for weighing in with an opinion. I asked {{u|Courcelles}} to take an independent look at this page, but that was before I realized he may be away from Wiki for an extended period of time with an illness. [[User:Ignocrates|Ignocrates]] ([[User talk:Ignocrates|talk]]) 20:04, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::Btw, the three draft articles are clearly outside the scope of that formal mediation. The only thing they have in common with the subject of the mediation, and with each other, is Ret.Prof's participation as an editor and those who are opposed to his activities on Wikipedia. [[User:Ignocrates|Ignocrates]] ([[User talk:Ignocrates|talk]]) 21:40, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::Yes, but I usually avoid private discussions of issues that may become the subjects of mediation. It is not a hard and fast rule, but when I looked at the subject matter of the query, it seemed that others (including you) had responded, providing useful information. [[User:Sunray|Sunray]] ([[User talk:Sunray|talk]]) 17:29, 21 July 2014 (UTC) |
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== Re works-in-progress == |
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Sorry to stir the pot, but the idea of creating draft documents in user space is that they are works '''in-progress'''. If there is going to be no activity on them for an extended period, i.e. "stepping back", the pages should temporarily be blanked to avoid the impression that the drafts are content forks, per [[WP:FORK]]. Opinions please. [[User:Ignocrates|Ignocrates]] ([[User talk:Ignocrates|talk]]) 21:26, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:You are out of line here - userspace is granted broad discretion. While these "drafts" will certainly not replace the articles, I do think that taken individually there might be pieces which can be introduced as points of discussion, and so this can be seen as Ret. Prof's "ideal" article. I am not saying that we need to do this for Ret. Prof, but we can explain in a nice way that this isn't how the changes will come about if they do end up meeting consensus after being discussed. That doesn't mean he can't have userspace to think about and refactor those changes before proposing them on the talk page. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andrevan]]'''[[User_talk:Andrevan|@]] 07:15, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::No, I am not "out of line". I made a suggestion and requested comments. I was in no way assuming bad faith; I was trying to minimize the potential for a misunderstanding. Feel free to apologize to me for your bad faith assumption that I was doing otherwise. Btw, I'm glad to see someone uninvolved taking an interest on Ret.Prof's behalf. [[User:Ignocrates|Ignocrates]] ([[User talk:Ignocrates|talk]]) 19:35, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::When people don't know how to do things here, you're supposed to help them, not bully them away and blank their pages. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andrevan]]'''[[User_talk:Andrevan|@]] 01:39, 27 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::The only comment Andrevan made which is apparently even remotely questionable is "You are out of line here," which I think few people would take as "assuming" anything. Andrevan BTW may be interested in reviewing the archived and maybe non-archived material from this page - he might find it interesting.[[User:John Carter|John Carter]] ([[User talk:John Carter|talk]]) 19:57, 28 July 2014 (UTC) |
Revision as of 03:23, 1 September 2014
'Wikipedia does not care about you or me being qualified scholars. Wikipedia is not a scholarly site, but a summary of sources that speak for themselves. We all have the right to edit, but there are rules to make sure that proper sources are used for appropriate articles and editors are civil. If you want to accuse me of a Christian bias:
Please read this.
|
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At Wikipedia we must all try to edit from a NPOV. On occasion my Faith has been called into question. Indeed some have honestly wondered how I can write what I have about the Historical Jesus and still be a Christian. The answer is simple, my relationship with God never had anything to do with history or archeology. Let me explain... Christianity not relevant in our modern world As a young litigation lawyer, I believed in God, but felt that Christianity was no longer relevant in our modern world. Jesus' teachings such as "Thou shalt not kill" "Love your enemy" "You can not serve both God and Money" were just not relevant in these modern times. I believed in the death penalty, war, material wealth. I did unto others before they did unto me. I did not get angry, I got even...and a bit! Spiritual awakening Then, a series of events made me reconsider my beliefs and come to the conclusion that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was still relevant today. I read a great deal about people who still believed in the Gospel, including Mahatma Gandhi, Dr Martin Luther King Jr., etc., etc. This led to a Spiritual awaking that forever changed my life. South Africa It was here, working for Archbishop Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela that my faith was put to the test. Could love and non violence really bring down the Apartheid government? We were out-gunned, out-matched in every way. What the Archbishop was preaching made no earthly sense. Yet before my eyes I witnessed this racist government fall. As I stepped out in faith on a daily basis, I experienced God in a real way. In my heart I came to believe that the Gospel of Christ was the most powerful force in the Universe. The Roman Empire never stood a chance. Nor did the British Empire in India, or, for that matter, Segregation in the South. Twelve Step Program Several years later I was approached by a group who wanted to use my Church. They explained to me that their program was basic Christianity without many of the offensive "buzz words" that had been added over the years.
This simplified "Gospel" has transformed the lives of millions. It is truly powerful regardless of the packaging. My faith finds form in Anglicanism because of the freedom from "strict dogma", but I have seen the power of Christ in all denominations. Walking with Christ for these many, many years has given me a faith that allows me to edit Wikipedia from a NPOV. The reason is that my faith is not based on the "historical evidence" that has survived to 2014 but rather it is based upon my experience over a very very long time...and now to have a Pope whose focus is love, forgiveness and caring for those in need rather than dogma is a true blessing! |
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