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:::Because POV-pushing, uncivil, anti-science editors have no standing. Sorry dude. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 21:28, 19 April 2008 (UTC) |
:::Because POV-pushing, uncivil, anti-science editors have no standing. Sorry dude. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 21:28, 19 April 2008 (UTC) |
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::::Thanks for proving my point with a beautiful illustration. [[User:CorticoSpinal|CorticoSpinal]] ([[User talk:CorticoSpinal|talk]]) 21:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC) |
::::Thanks for proving my point with a beautiful illustration. [[User:CorticoSpinal|CorticoSpinal]] ([[User talk:CorticoSpinal|talk]]) 21:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::You're welcome. I love proving a point that anti-science editors should be blocked permanently. I'm still trying to figure out who removed your permanent community ban? [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 21:39, 19 April 2008 (UTC) |
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===J. Scott Armstrong debate === |
===J. Scott Armstrong debate === |
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Revision as of 21:39, 19 April 2008
I agree, its a problem (See WP:GIANTDICK). To the list of characteristics, I'd add the tendency to bloat articles with information on the grounds that "is verifiable, so it should be in" William M. Connolley (talk) 19:50, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed. If they cannot get round the main points of the science, they try to add irrelevant information to essentially hide the inconvenient needle in a haystack of irrelevancy. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:06, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Examples
I think it might be useful to include some concrete examples of the problems described here. I think they are real problems, and I've certainly experienced them, but those who don't have direct experience with them may grasp the problem more readily if the descriptions are backed with specific examples. I'll look for some. MastCell Talk 20:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
- This might be a good start for you. Ditto for editing warring on an article without even reading it first. Raul654 (talk) 21:05, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
- This has also recently occurred here which then I asked the user to please not blindly revert and participate in Talk first [1]. 3 minutes later, without even acknowledging my concern it happened again which triggered an edit war and the page in question to go into protection (again). CorticoSpinal (talk) 20:52, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- Because POV-pushing, uncivil, anti-science editors have no standing. Sorry dude. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 21:28, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for proving my point with a beautiful illustration. CorticoSpinal (talk) 21:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- You're welcome. I love proving a point that anti-science editors should be blocked permanently. I'm still trying to figure out who removed your permanent community ban? OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 21:39, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for proving my point with a beautiful illustration. CorticoSpinal (talk) 21:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- Because POV-pushing, uncivil, anti-science editors have no standing. Sorry dude. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 21:28, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- This has also recently occurred here which then I asked the user to please not blindly revert and participate in Talk first [1]. 3 minutes later, without even acknowledging my concern it happened again which triggered an edit war and the page in question to go into protection (again). CorticoSpinal (talk) 20:52, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
J. Scott Armstrong debate
I think this is an interesting case. J. Scott Armstrong is an economist working on "forecasting". His work is frequently cited (by economists), he has founded two journals and an institute, and seems to be a reasonably successful academic. He has now, under the auspices of the National Center for Policy Analysis, a right-wing think tank, applied himself to the field of global warming[2]. His paper has been published in the classic sceptic mill Energy and Environment. For someone with a decent scientific education, his claims are obviously empty (see [3]) - he has no idea about physical models. As far as I can tell, his critique is essentially ignored by scientists. However, we have User: RonCram, whom I believe to be honest, but who has not an inkling of scientific understanding, and who tries to push Armstrong's work as the latest and greatest into J. Scott Armstrong and global warming controversy. He has some support from some of our long-term sceptic contributors (of whose honesty I have mixed feelings), but even they are rather quite. Discussions are at Talk:J. Scott Armstrong and Talk:Global warming controversy. Any suggestions? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:52, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- I just modified that section. I'm more liberal than most editors here when it comes to including controversial information. In this case, what I've done is to mention that A&G ignore the fact that climate models are based on physics. At least I tried to say that in a sentence :) Count Iblis (talk) 17:45, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Remedy removed
I removed the following suggested remedy:
- Editors who regularly edit in a topic area either to promote or oppose a point of view instead of seeking consensus on how best to achieve an encyclopedia compliant with the core content policies may be topic banned from that area by any administrator who has not themselves edited within the scope of the topical area. Suggested by GRBerry
This is a bad idea for several reasons. First, the arbcom already does this to some extent, and the remedy has proven largely ineffective. Second, this has the potential to be used against the very people we should be helping. The third problem (related to the second) "by any administrator who has not themselves edited within the scope of the topical area" - by doing this, you are automatically excluding the people most qualified to understand the problem and make a good decision. Raul654 (talk) 21:29, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
- The second cause is there for a reason, and none of the suggestions will fly as policy without something very close to it. We don't let admins block where they are in a content dispute, and we have admins who have strong points of view who would be happy to apply sanctions to those with the opposing point of view. The Matthew Hoffman ArbComm case is a recent example, but you've been around long enough to know of plenty other cases.
- As to the bit about editors who "we should be helping", some of those you would name in that category I would name in the category of "editors that are the problem". And this disagreement will exist broadly, not just between you and I, and not just in any one topic area. GRBerry 21:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
- I see what you mean, GRBerry. I certainly would put you in the category of "editors that are the problem", for example. And there is evidence in my block log that you would categorize me the same way. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:54, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
- I think we need to be clearer about what constitutes POV pushing. All too often in arbitration cases, the parties will describe other users as POV pushers and cite something as evidence which shows that the users concerned have a particular point of view. Having a point of view does not imply pushing it, necessarily. Pushing a point of view in that sense can only be discovered after looking more closely for:
- Editing restricted to one specific topic.
- Removal, or significant toning down, of content outlining opposing or different points of view.
- Reluctance to engage in debate on the talk page.
- Frequent appeal to procedure and attempts to sanction opposing editors.
- Opposition to any aspect of fundamental Wikipedia policies either in general or in specific application.
- Two or more of these are normally indicative of POV pushing. Sam Blacketer (talk) 22:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
POV-pushing cannot be determined by behavior alone. It's simply impossible. Let me show you point-by-point:
- Indeed, most POV-pushers refuse to edit outside their own peculiar little domain, or do so only nominally. However, sometimes these POV-pushers go on wiki-stalking expeditions. Likewise, some people who stick to one subject are not POV-pushers, but are simply experts.
- Sometimes removing so-called "opposing" points of view is "N"POV-pushing (as JzG describes it). For example, when I removed all the homeopathy references from plant and chemical articles, I was N-POV pushing in order to get Wikipedia to align with WP:WEIGHT. To date, these removals have stood, despite some very loud shouts from a lot of opposed individuals calling me a POV-pusher. I persisted because I knew that the sources for homeopathy were simply worse than the most reliable sources about chemicals and plants.
- Sometimes "NPOV-pushers" are reluctant to engage in talk page discussions for fear of being bogged down with redundant comments. Other times, they are afraid to comment because they'll be carted off to sanctioning by the POV-pushers.
- I haven't done a study, but I'm willing to bet I have attempted to sanction a boatload more editors than most other people in my editcount range. Procedure is appealed to by lots of people who aren't POV-pushers. I'm a fan of WP:IAR, but other people who are not POV-pushers are not. In any case, not a good discriminant.
- I am in opposition to certain interpretations of policies. So are a lot of people who aren't POV-pushers.
I think the best way to determine who is a POV-pusher is by looking at the content they advocate for and the content they try to remove. Oftentimes, POV-pushers totally misappropriate sources in favor of unreliable sources. Then, when someone like myself comes in with a direct quote from a professor of some related academic subject, they remove it claiming that it isn't a good source. The judgement of who is "POV-pushing" has to be done at the source/content level. It cannot be judged by behavior alone.
ScienceApologist (talk) 22:30, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
- I'm unclear on the advantage of identifying people as "POV-pushers". Isn't that a step removed from talking about content? I've been under the impression for some time that once you start trying to pin a label on a person, the discussion veers off-course and is difficult to get back on topic. Am I wrong about that? -GTBacchus(talk) 02:09, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- That's a chicken-and-egg question from where I sit - did the discussion veer off-course because someone was labeled a POV-pusher, or did the POV-pushing drag the discussion off course, with the naming just being a response? I would agree, though, that we can do this without calling anyone a "POV-pusher" - we can describe these disruptive behaviors, and suggest ways to deal with them, without recourse to labeling specific editors. MastCell Talk 02:21, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
a very poor idea
The dialog of people with different points of view is how we attain objectivity. Myself, I am prepared to edit on equal terms with those who want to claim that there is some reality behind pseudoscience or outright mysticism. I am convinced enough of the weakness of their arguments that I see no need to arbitrarily exclude their sources. Any reasonable presentation with NPOV will inevitably lead anyone not already prejudiced against it to the scientific understanding of the world. If I doubted the validity of scientific evidence, but had a bias towards it, only then would I want not to meet the opponents head-on. At present, though, I avoid these topics primarily because i dislike the over-pushy editing behavior of the "SPOV" people when they work on these topics. I can deal just fine with opponents. My friends are the ones who make me embarrassed. I find it hard to believe that they actually want to prescribe a list of a small number of the only permissible sources. I cannot see why people who I know do understand science very well, and can argue for it effectively, think they need to suppress the extremely ineffectual arguments of the opposition. Do they doubt their abilities, or their science? We already deal very well with the objective presentation of material at Wikipedia. We would deal even better if we worked on articles instead of multiple attempts at enacting biased policy. DGG (talk) 03:55, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- With all respect, I think you've managed to completely misunderstand the point. This essay doesn't object to inclusion of information on a particular topic. Instead, it objects to things like "frivolously requesting citations for obvious or well known information," insisting on the inclusion of dodgy sources, and so on. In other words it's fully in accord with your call for "any reasonable presentation with NPOV." The problem is with pressing an agenda without regard to NPOV (or with a deliberate attempt to pervert it by ignoring WP:WEIGHT and so on). I'm fascinated by weird stuff and think Wikipedia should have well-written, well-sourced and neutral articles on those topics. But not badly written promotional articles with crap sources, as the targets of this essay would prefer. Raymond Arritt (talk) 08:53, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- Well said. KillerChihuahua?!? 09:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- (Deleted by Baegis, as this is not a forum to attack other editors through the proxy of an IP address)
- Hiding behind an anonymous account in order to violate WP:CIVIL? That way this person can keep editing under their POV-pushing account without being taken to task by administrators. I believe this is either User:Anthon01 orUser:Levine2112, by the way. Isn't one of them from Chicago? ScienceApologist (talk) 15:11, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- (Deleted by Baegis, as this is not a forum to attack other editors through the proxy of an IP address)
- Hiding behind an anonymous account in order to violate WP:CIVIL? That way this person can keep editing under their POV-pushing account without being taken to task by administrators. I believe this is either User:Anthon01 orUser:Levine2112, by the way. Isn't one of them from Chicago? ScienceApologist (talk) 15:11, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- (Deleted by Baegis, as this is not a forum to attack other editors through the proxy of an IP address)
- Well said. KillerChihuahua?!? 09:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
With all due respect DGG, as I have said on the Raymond arritt Expert Withdrawal pages,[4] I believe your experience with "civil pov pushing" and controversial articles is extremely limited. Your Wikipedia contributions, while extremely valuable, have almost completely avoided the more trying areas and the more difficult behaviors. Until you have had an extended argument over weeks or even months, in which you make several hundred edits, you have not been really involved with something that this proposal is meant to address. You cannot edit a talk page twice or even 10 or 20 times, and then leave for another talk page, and say you have no problem meeting your opposition head on and think that rationalist and science-oriented editors are being unrealistic or are essentially just crybabies.
The reason I produced the User:Filll/AGF Challenge (and have another 25 or so exercises to present to interested parties eventually), is exactly this difficulty. Those who argue most vehemently that everything at present is fine (except that we have too little wikilove and AGF perhaps), have minimal experience in this area. Those with experience pretty much are in agreement that we have to modify our approaches a little or be willing to experiment with new approaches. Many of those without experience express the same sentiments that DGG does above. Interestingly, some of the biggest internal and external critics of how Wikipedia handles CIVIL POV pushing, who often call for more leniency for CIVIL POV pushing and more tolerance for their edits, when confronted with the exercises based on real situations as in the User:Filll/AGF Challenge, often call for far more harsh responses to those causing difficulties than is common on Wikipedia at present. I think this is because they possibly have little experience with these sorts of trying situations.
Here is a partial list of the kind of complaints one might get, from multiple editors who have a FRINGE agenda on a controversial article, and often in a CIVIL fashion:
- To disagree with an editor with a FRINGE agenda is claimed to be unCIVIL, a personal attack (violation of NPA), a violation of BITE or a violation of AGF
- It is claimed that any sources that disagree with the FRINGE POV cannot be used since they violate NPOV
- It is claimed that sources that disagree with the FRINGE POV cannot be used if they reflect poorly on any living people that are proponents of the FRINGE POV (such as critical book reviews, etc)
- It is claimed that the "N" in NPOV means that no negative or critical or mainstream material can appear at all in the article, since it is not neutral
- It is claimed that any critical or negative material cannot appear in an article since it is biased
- It is claimed that it violates WP:SYNTH or WP:OR to include any negative or critical material in a FRINGE article
- It is claimed that NPOV or NOR are faulty and must be changed or reinterpreted for this particular article. For example, recently someone on a controversial article claimed "If we follow WP:NOR, our article will be exactly as divorced and ridiculous as the reliable sources".
- It is claimed that only the proponents of the FRINGE position understand NPOV or NOR or RS, not the experienced editors with tens of thousands of edits, and FAs and GAs to their credit.
- It is claimed that there is a conspiracy against the FRINGE position and anyone who opposes an uncritical article about the FRINGE position is in on the conspiracy, has been bought off, is breaking the rules of Wikipedia, is just plain evil, etc.
- There is wikilawyering to try to redefine a FRINGE position as nonFRINGE, or the mainstream position as the FRINGE position instead.
- Some claim that sources with negative views are forbidden since they are unencyclopedic, or that an article containing critical material is unencyclopedic
- It is claimed that any negative or critical material is unusable since it is just opinion and not fact. Of course the sympathetic material in sources is usable since that is not opinion and is factual.
- There are attempts to use mainly primary sources and to reject secondary and tertiary sources, or to redefine the preferences for secondary and tertiary sources in policy.
- It is claimed that any source that has not written articles that are supportive and uncritical of FRINGE positions are not suitable as tertiary sources. For example, recently at a controversial article, someone argued "Actually, those really shouldn't be used as sources on this topic because (to my knowledge) they haven't written anything pro-X, and hence really can't be considered third party."
- There is a lot of evidence of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Arguments that are rebutted and dismissed, sometimes with extensive references, are repeated over and over and over, sometimes just with a cut and paste approach. Sometimes they are presented by the same person dozens and dozens of times spread out over days and weeks and months.
- It is claimed that any critical material in an article is unfair, or violates Fairness of tone.
Often CIVIL POV pushing is done by a group that support each other and egg each other on. The mainstream NPOV position is assaulted using a variety of the arguments listed above, over and over and over and over. It is done in a perfectly CIVIL fashion, but if a nonFRINGE editor has to answer these kinds of comments dozens of times per day, in talk pages that might garner 100 kilobytes or 200 kilobytes or more every day or two, it can be extremely frustrating. Most nonFRINGE editors will just give up and leave out of exhaustion.
Until someone has had an experience of answering these kinds of complaints over and over and over on a controversial article talk page, possibly 400 or 500 times, it appears that many do not really appreciate the problem we are discussing. We need to think carefully about it. We need to be creative. We need to be prepared to experiment with new approaches.--Filll (talk) 11:18, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Another one for Filll's list:
- Attempts to curtail lengthy discussion of off-topic or settled issues, are claimed to be censorship and/or incivility.
HrafnTalkStalk 15:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Here's one which I have been encountering rather recently.
- Writing material using facts in the same context as reliable sources do violates NPOV since they are following a "narrative". We must instead choose facts which no source describes as relevant to allow our readers to decide which "narrative" should be chosen.
- There are no facts. If a fringe minority, not present in any reliable sources, disagrees with a widely accepted fact it violates NPOV to state it as a fact in the article. Every statement of fact should be attributed, no matter how universally accepted.
- Reliable sources claims to know certain facts which I believe are impossible to know. Thus, they are not reliable sources.
- Common sense dictates that we should ignore core policies like WP:V or WP:UNDUE.
Just a few. --Haemo (talk) 20:14, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- Careful to qualify when you say "(e)very statement of fact should be attributed, no matter how universally accepted." There are facts which are so universal (generally or within the article/field) that they don't need a source. This might promote spurious tagging which is just a hassle for all involved. Baegis (talk) 20:19, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
An idea
Since it is difficult for outside admins to keep track of what is going on across many talk pages and article pages and user talk pages, maybe we can help by categorizing the CIVIL POV pushing. For example, I have begun a partial list above, and Hrafn has added an element to it. Raul654 and others have given other examples above. Anyone who spends much time dealing with this problem on controversial pages sees the same behavior over and over and over. If there was a way to warn an offender or catalogue their behavior clearly as it is being committed, or keep track of it, then just as the clear signs of CIVIL violations, or 3RR violations, this sort of CIVIL POV pushing can be documented, and recognized and dealt with. Comments?--Filll (talk) 16:28, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Here's an idea I floated [5]; I think it would prevent a lot of edit warring and drawn out POV battles, especially on controversial pages. It would be a new form mediation. Thoughts? CorticoSpinal (talk) 20:02, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- I suggested something very similar on the arbcom mailing list a few weeks ago. I think it's *by far* the idea with the most potential to solve the problem. Raul654 (talk) 20:03, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- I have been involved in many, long-winded, unncessary drag out edit wars and POV disputes at Chiropractic which definitely would benefit from such a remediation mechanism. I've only been editing here for 3 months and have already obtained many battle scars in the process but would love to make a meaningful contribution outside my area of expertise so that other new and experienced wikipedians don't have to go through my initiation here, which has been essentially a trial by fire. Should we dedicate a section to advancing this proposed remediation mechanism for controversial articles; I think it could quickly gain traction and consensus and be set an important precedent in resolving content disputes amongst other things. CorticoSpinal (talk) 20:17, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Why not just base all scientific topics on peer reviewed articles?
There are also many POV pushers who usually edit some of the articles on political topics. The wiki politics articles are often in permanent state of war. Some of these warrior editors occasionally come to the politically sensitive scientific pages (e.g Global Warming) and bring their bad habits with them. But in case of Global Warming, they can't do any harm, because we have made very clear agreements about the nature of the sources that can be used. In most wiki physics articles, we don't even automatically allow peer reviewed articles, e.g. if it gives too much weight on certain fringe ideas.
I'm not sure how to deal with topics like Homeopathy. But it is a fact that all the claims of water having a memory are strongly disputed by scientists. Also, it is in conflict with the known laws of physics. These are also facts that must be mentioned. If we can't find a source of some obvious statement, then I suggest making an appendix and reproducing the rigorous proof. Count Iblis (talk) 18:03, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- That works well for topics that are explicitly scientific, i.e., working scientists are publishing research on that topic. For topics such as Electronic voice phenomenon, it's more difficult because working scientists don't really address claims that ghosts speak to us through radio static. Do there exist peer-reviewed studies refuting every pseudo-scientific claim? I don't think so. -GTBacchus(talk) 18:19, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- Or the 9/11 attacks. There are vanishingly few peer-reviewed works on the subject. --Haemo (talk) 20:05, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
HomeopathyChiropractic medicine is definitely a gray zone which needs we need to tip-toe carefully, as it may establish a precedent for other alternative medicine disciplines. An issue I'd like to get feedback on, is the weight of "mainstream" scientists (say an MD/PhD) vs the weight of non-mainstream scientists (say DC/PhD). I have encoutered a lot of arguments which suggest that orthodox medical "science/research" trumps non-orthodox "science/research" on AltMed disciplines. Is there some kind of policy or precedent for this? Where could this be discussed (or has been discussed) so I can get familiar with some of the more salient points of wikipedia policy involving this topic. CorticoSpinal (talk) 20:25, 19 April 2008 (UTC)- Homeopathy is not a gray area. A great deal of editors want it to become a gray area, but it is certainly not in that zone. Chiropractic occupies that zone much easier than homeopathy. At least with chiro, there exists work on either side of the aisle. Homeopathy, at least when it comes to scientific evidence, exists so far on the fringe that there really is not any work on the science side to counteract what the homeopaths claim to find in studies. Much like when dealing with creationism claims, a large part of the scientific community just ignores these things because they are so implausible (for a great many reasons) that studying them would be a monumental waste of funding. While I have no idea on the reliability of the journals used by chiro's for studies, there is no way that they are lower on the ole totem pole than the journals that a lot of these tiny pilot studies are published. Some of these are so small and fringe that they might be sold from some guy's trunk in a rough part of town. Baegis (talk) 20:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- To avoid COI, I didn't want to specifically mention Chiropractic, but we might as well get it out of the way. Switch chiropractic for homeopathy in my above edit and we can continue this discussion if you feel it's warranted. CorticoSpinal (talk) 20:44, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- This is not a good idea. Peer review is not a guarantee of quality, and enshrining peer review only invites editors to mine the peer-reviewed literature to advance their POV - an extraordinarily simple task for any moderately sophisticated editor. For example, I could quite easily create an article on HIV/AIDS, citing only peer-reviewed literature, which would draw the conclusion that HIV is likely harmless and not the cause of AIDS (in fact, I've considered doing so as an exercise). A current ArbCom case involves an editor who selectively cites the peer-reviewed literature to advance her POV and circumvent WP:WEIGHT. Peer review is probably necessary for a serious scientific source, but alone it's not sufficient as a guarantee that a source cannot be abused to violate WP:NPOV or WP:WEIGHT. MastCell Talk 20:56, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- Point noted, MastCell. What about developing an "expert panel" on given topics (i.e. a "medical panel" could include an MD, DO, DC, PT, DDS, DVM, etc." and consensus opinion could develop and provide a guideline at first, if the guideline (which allows for a degree of flexibility) is abused, it could become a policy which does not allow for interpretation. CorticoSpinal (talk) 21:20, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- This is not a good idea. Peer review is not a guarantee of quality, and enshrining peer review only invites editors to mine the peer-reviewed literature to advance their POV - an extraordinarily simple task for any moderately sophisticated editor. For example, I could quite easily create an article on HIV/AIDS, citing only peer-reviewed literature, which would draw the conclusion that HIV is likely harmless and not the cause of AIDS (in fact, I've considered doing so as an exercise). A current ArbCom case involves an editor who selectively cites the peer-reviewed literature to advance her POV and circumvent WP:WEIGHT. Peer review is probably necessary for a serious scientific source, but alone it's not sufficient as a guarantee that a source cannot be abused to violate WP:NPOV or WP:WEIGHT. MastCell Talk 20:56, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- To avoid COI, I didn't want to specifically mention Chiropractic, but we might as well get it out of the way. Switch chiropractic for homeopathy in my above edit and we can continue this discussion if you feel it's warranted. CorticoSpinal (talk) 20:44, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- Homeopathy is not a gray area. A great deal of editors want it to become a gray area, but it is certainly not in that zone. Chiropractic occupies that zone much easier than homeopathy. At least with chiro, there exists work on either side of the aisle. Homeopathy, at least when it comes to scientific evidence, exists so far on the fringe that there really is not any work on the science side to counteract what the homeopaths claim to find in studies. Much like when dealing with creationism claims, a large part of the scientific community just ignores these things because they are so implausible (for a great many reasons) that studying them would be a monumental waste of funding. While I have no idea on the reliability of the journals used by chiro's for studies, there is no way that they are lower on the ole totem pole than the journals that a lot of these tiny pilot studies are published. Some of these are so small and fringe that they might be sold from some guy's trunk in a rough part of town. Baegis (talk) 20:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Giving up in disgust
No, I'm not, but I'd like to add a point that seems missing on the main page, which is that there area lot of pages that are such a battle ground that good-faith editors wandering in get rapidly repelled when they realise that they've wandered into a snake pit, and that there is no way that sanity is going to prevail unless it goes all the way up to arbcomm, which is way overweight as a solution William M. Connolley (talk) 20:50, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
may be warned, restricted, or ultimately blocked by any uninvolved administrator
Time to start a major flamewar I think. may be warned, restricted, or ultimately blocked by any uninvolved administrator... is a problem, in that only the people involved understand the issues, have followed what is going on, and can issue blocks in a timely manner. Yes I have some obvious examples in mind, and Allegations of state terrorism by the United States is the most recent one. There should be some way for admins to block people they are involved in disputes with. There also need to be some safeguards on it, I suppose William M. Connolley (talk) 20:50, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- "Uninvolved" is generally fairly narrowly construed. Still, this is probably necessary as a safeguard, and I seriously doubt that the community would stand for a provision allowing admins to use the tools against editors with whom they're involved in an active dispute. MastCell Talk 20:59, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- Should it be the ethical, moral obligation (not to mention we could set a policy) that admins actively engaged in a dispute should recuse themselves and let an arbitrating 3rd party decide on the appropriate remedial actions? Another issue which gets highlighted are the "buddy buddy" system of admins who share the same professional background, sympathies or that could be reasonably demonstrated to be friends/acquaintances/pals or whatever legal lingo editors may describe such "affiliations". CorticoSpinal (talk) 21:17, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, you're attempting to tighten the noose a bit too tightly here I'm afraid. If we only allowed action by admins who had never had any contact with any of the editors involved nor with other admins, there'd be no one left. Raymond Arritt (talk) 21:23, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- [edit conflict]Thanks for the context, Raymond. A multidisciplinary panel could be an alternative, the point I was trying to make was than an admin shouldn't shop for another admin and if there's a way to minimize this it should be considered. CorticoSpinal (talk) 21:32, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- I was liking the stuff going on here, but once I saw CorticoSpinal involved, who is one of the most anti-science, POV_pushing editors on the project, and trying to get his POV pushed, I'm done here. Again, why isn't he permanently blocked? Who unblocked him? OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 21:29, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- Sigh. Does this even deserve a rebuttal? CorticoSpinal (talk) 21:32, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- Pretending to be civil. Perfect example of the anti-science POV warrior who infests the fringe theory articles. Case closed. Why aren't you still blocked? Who unblocked you? OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 21:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC)