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Thanks for bringing that to my attention. It's kinda weird, I can't find much info on production dates, etc, either. I might put a note up on the talk page... |
Thanks for bringing that to my attention. It's kinda weird, I can't find much info on production dates, etc, either. I might put a note up on the talk page... |
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Cheers. --— [[User:Hl|Hugh]] 08:17, 28 May 2009 (UTC |
Cheers. --— [[User:Hl|Hugh]] 08:17, 28 May 2009 (UTC |
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== Color scheme == |
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I tell you what, I invite you to propose three colors for [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy]] so everything matches, talk page, templates, etcetera. At some point in the future I would like to have each task force its own consistent color scheme also. Be well. [[User:Gregbard|Pontiff Greg Bard]] ([[User talk:Gregbard|talk]]) 02:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC) |
Revision as of 02:40, 29 May 2009
- I usually watchlist talkpage threads for a few days, so please reply in original.
If you leave a message here, I will probably reply here, unless requested otherwise.
and hurry off as if nothing ever happened." - Winston Churchill
current time: 02:51, Saturday, May 25, 2024 (UTC)
archives: (est. 2005) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 |
small bag of holding
Noahveil
First of all, thank you for putting back my link on the Tom Robbins page. There were many such links on wikipedia but other editors have had knee-jerk reactions and removed them without actually checking them out. Like you said, just because a link may appear to have a COI doesn't automatically make it spam if it's got good information pertaining to the subject of the page.
That link has been taken down twice now by editors who simply decided I was a spammer and ruthlessly went through the entire Wikipedia removing every single link I ever made, first by irishguy and now by Raven in Orbit. Many of the links had no COI whatever, links to articles by other people that just happen to be hosted on my site.
Please, I need somebody rational to talk to about this. Just as my Tom Robbins article is of value to people looking up Tom Robbins, so too are my articles about Andy Kaufman, Michael Nesmith, Godfrey Reggio, Jonathan Demme, and many others, all deleted by Raven in Orbit, the same one who deleted the Tom Robbins article, all declared SPAM for no other reason than they came from me.
Believe me, I understand "no original research" and COI, but these were all articles previously printed by the LA Weekly, Daily Variety, Movieline Magazine, and the WGA. I'm not a spammer, even though the articles happen to have been written by me. If I wanted, I could go into the articles themselves and edit in what I know, but my writing style isn't really a neat fit, so I thought it was more proper to simply add links at the bottom.
Do I simply need to find third parties to add those links? Some of those deletes make absolutely no sense. I'm the editor of the Los Angeles Free Press. I put up a link to the Los Angeles Free Press on the Los Angeles Free Press page. Raven in Orbit took it down, calling the link SPAM. Now people looking up the Los Angeles Free Press won't find a link to the Los Angeles Free Press. Madness.
Any advice or help would be appreciated.
Noahveil (talk) 19:45, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Replied at User talk:Noahveil/Archive 1#Reply from Quiddity and below.
- See also User talk:Delicious carbuncle/Archive 2#every link to my site banned.
User:Noahveil
- See User talk:Gb/Archive 15#Blocking after 1 warning for start and reply.
Thank you for your message - I think it's probably helpful to start when their contributions start.
November 2005 - a bunch of contributions, 99% of which were to add links to www.disinformationtoday.com and articles by User:Noahveil himself.
February 2007 - exactly the same thing again. 45 or so links to his website added in about an hour. Nothing else - no constructive contributions whatsoever. All these links are to a blog, and thus not a reliable source per WP:EL.
January 2008 he edits under an IP (User_talk:71.102.70.171) reinserting deleted external links to the same site on Sweeney Todd. He'd was warned on that IP address about adding inappropriate external links. There may well be other IPs which he's been editing under - I've identified at least by looking at Veinor's link count for 13 February 2007 where you'll see 44 links to dareland.com, of which 40 were added under Noahveil, but 4 under User:4.246.248.148.
26th March this year - a few more under the Noahveil account. 29th March, a couple more, ending with Lee Strasberg. He was warned by Delicious Carbuncle who subsequently reported the account to AIV where I then blocked. I initially blocked indefinitely, then tweaked it down to 48 hours.
Was the block punitive? Not really - preventative, if anything. It stopped him doing what he'd been doing and brought his attention to the relevant policies.
Could more, or stronger, warnings have been given? Of course - but the same could almost certainly be true of any block. From both a superficial and an in-depth look, however, it's clear that at that time User:Noahveil had only one intent - to add links to his website, in breach of any number of policies. He'd been warned in January 2008 - whilst I concede that the subsequent warning in March wasn't followed by any activity, he hadn't actually shown any intent to change his activities between January and March - WP:Block goes on to say that warnings are not a prerequisite for blocking, and that users who have been made aware of a policy (as he had) and have had a reasonable opportunity to adjust their behaviour (as he had) may not require further warning.
As for him being a poor newcomer, well, I don't really subscribe to that (and I'm not sure what trend you're talking about - he's only been blocked once). He's not a newcomer, as he's been around for years. His sole intent, during that time, has been to include as many links to his own website as possible (there's even one hiding away behind his entry in a list of personalities linked to the station KROQ-FM). If he's entered into meaningful discourse with you about participating constructively in the encyclopaedia, then that's all good, and actually (in my view) justifies my block to a large degree - if not blocked, would he have done so? Or would he just have ignored the warnings and carried on as before.
Thanks for the reminder to assume good faith, incidentally, although I'm not sure where the link provided was supposed to take me! As you touch on, the obligation is not a carte blanche one - it is to assume good faith in the absence of evidence to the contrary. I had sufficient evidence to the contrary, in my book. GBT/C 12:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
User talk:Delicious carbuncle#Lewis Arquette
Please respond to User:Noahveil's question, if you wouldn't mind helping him again here. Oh, and when are you going to bring up that misleading edit summary issue with him? Regards. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:53, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
- Done. Thanks for the heads-up.
- Re: the misleading edit summary, I imagine he simply clicked the "undo" link, and then adapted the auto-summary to something that looked correct (but in this case, wasn't). I don't believe it is worth hassling him over - he is aware that his edits are being scrutinized by others now, and back in February he had very little experience with the more arcane aspects of Wikipedia. Hope that satisfies you :) -- Quiddity (talk) 21:49, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
- It's a nice theory, but if you look at the actual edit, there's no way that could have happened. As well as undoing the previous change, he simultaneously added material. And as has been pointed out before by someone else, the user's inexperience with WP is due to the fact that it's a four year old SPA for adding links to his own site. You appear to have taken him under your wing -- for whatever reason -- so I'm not going to pursue this unless I see something egregious, but no, I'm not satisfied. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
- When you click "undo", it presents the edit form, ready for editing. He could have also copied the summary from a different revision and altered that.
- I find your attitude towards this dissatisfying. You are refusing to see the evidence from an outsiders point of view: This edit by you, on 29 March 2008, was the first personal message that we can definitely assume Noahveil saw, since November 2005 when he was welcomed.
- Please take a look through this thread, where I've tried to explain why good faith is a complex thing, that we have to make an effort to assume (vandals often become good contributors, some even become admins eventually). If you don't give someone a chance to learn from their mistakes, noone benefits. "People are the most important resource there is, for Wikipedia; not frightening anyone off forever, is the 2nd most important job we have, as ideal Wikipedians (after writing an encyclopedia)." -- Quiddity (talk) 00:20, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you for the demonstration - I accept that your version of events is plausible. In fact, my assumption that the user undid a misspelling and inserted his web site turns out to be completely backwards, on closer inspection. The user undid the removal of his website and corrected the misspelling while he was in there. I don't disagree with your general premise that SPAs or outright vandals can become useful contributors, but in this particular case I am doubtful of it ever happening, even with your guidance. (Occasional spelling corrections notwithstanding.) I wish you well in your efforts. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 14:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- It's a nice theory, but if you look at the actual edit, there's no way that could have happened. As well as undoing the previous change, he simultaneously added material. And as has been pointed out before by someone else, the user's inexperience with WP is due to the fact that it's a four year old SPA for adding links to his own site. You appear to have taken him under your wing -- for whatever reason -- so I'm not going to pursue this unless I see something egregious, but no, I'm not satisfied. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Checking the "bad words" list for Version 0.7
Hi Quiddity, thank you for your kind offer to help read through hundreds of puerile attempts at humour, for the Version 0.7 release. Wizzy has finally got a "diff" version of his list, which only lists "bad words" that have since been removed - it's still over 20,000 words, but that is much more manageable than 70,000. The list is available for download [here in zipped form. Please let me know if you're available to help, and then we can start divvying up the list. Thanks, Walkerma (talk) 04:20, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks a lot! I've posted a page here to coordinate the work. I'll be away from home all next week, but I should have occasional internet so I'll try and do what I can anyway. Cheers, Walkerma (talk) 04:37, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Badagnani
Re: Badagnani
I've gone to what I feel are extreme lengths to work with Badagnani. I've found that my efforts to do so are futile, as many others have. Now, I'm simply documenting some of his more blatant attempts to disrupt my work on Wikipedia.
Meanwhile, I'm following WP:BATTLE and working with others who do the same. I would hope that you'd be one of those editors.
I know I can rub some editors the wrong way. However, I'm happy to explain my self, or refactor my comments when asked. I tend to stick close to policy and guidelines when there's a dispute, which annoys some people. That does not mean that I ignore or disagree with WP:IAR, only that I want good reasons for doing so. The more policies and guidelines I'm asked to ignore, the better the reasons should be. --Ronz (talk) 23:37, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
- That's very reasonable, thank you for that. I'm happy to engage in a friendly collaboration on an article or three - it's the demands of immediacy that tend to get under my (and I think B's) skin.
- I realize that some editors stand in very different perspectives with regards to how prominent external links should ever be allowed to get in Wikipedia. A few extreme people want to create a whole new tab next to article-discussion-history to fill with their personally-disliked aspect of some Wikipedian item - navboxes, infoboxes, external links, pullquotes, image galleries, portal links, wiktionary links, categories and hidden categories, are all hated-to-disliked (on a spectrum of course) by a large handful of editors each. We also all apply different measures/guidelines with different levels of strictness. From the above, I think you completely get that, and I feel much better now :)
- Regarding Badagnani, I'm really not sure. Frankly, with the few strong-characters I have tried to advise, it has either backfired on me (they thought that I was coming off as lecturing and inflexible, when I was trying my damndest to be friendly and explicit and helpful) or has just been ignored. I'm a bit burnt out on helping those who can't adapt to our fastmoderngeeky ways, or methods of dialogue, or the minutae/critical-subdetails of policy coverage. [I pick up injured animals too, it's a terrible habit - half of them bite.] He does do a hell of a lot of good stub writing though, and the bulk of his (recent) edits seem to be overwhelmingly positive. I've asked at the ANI thread what the worst actual problems are, outside of polite-cantankerousness and impatience-with-the-impatience-of-others. Whenever someone makes a friendly inquiry on a talkpage, he seems to react well - but if someone just deletes things and he doesn't understand why, then he kneejerk reverts and starts a bad cycle.
- He definitely needs to stop repeating things but I have no idea how to phrase that politely, and I'd guess he won't until he feels that the issues have been addressed. (eg. the accusations of (and original acts of) stalking with the few EL editors is essentially shrug-worthy, though a bit rude, in both directions. You know all this [I don't think he does], but I understand how your ability to check up on no-doubt-about-it-spammers (which most of you folks whom I get in grumbles with at EL, are incredibly good and useful at) leads you to investigate people with good-intentions-but-a-few-bad-habits). We need an faq for dealing with these archetypes... *sigh* -- Quiddity (talk) 00:35, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see "we can't let those Korean nationalists inject their bias" as "polite cantankerousness". Maybe I'm just really burned because of how much he insulted me, and I really like that you're pointing out the good in his contributions, Quiddity, but I'm not seeing how we get somewhere workable. What has to happen? I'm interested in solutions, not sighs, because without them, he's going to wear through the community's patience very soon. What do we do to save this guy? Seriously. -GTBacchus(talk) 01:28, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
- Please reinterpret any fault in my understanding, but I'm really not sure how "racist" he was. Is it racist to mention that someone might have a patriotic/nationalistic bias? He didn't caricature or insult in any way, did he? You are completely correct that it is not relevant to the article content, and that we should "comment on content not contributors", but saying that someone has a Korean Nationalistic PointOfView doesn't seem all that bad? He was pointing out that the other contributor's viewpoint may not be inline with NPOV. Which would be understandable, on an article about dog meat, being edited by a mostly anglo-western audience...
- I'm just not sure that the terms "racism" or "racist" apply at all.(?) "Accusations of bias" is the only way I can really consider it. -- Quiddity (talk) 23:20, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think we can maintain a working environment where criticizing another editors' contributions in terms of their nationality is accepted. I think that allowing that kind of shit (and I choose the word "shit" quite carefully) is anathema to collaborative work. If Badagnani cannot understand that such remarks are completely unacceptable, then how can you expect others to work collaboratively with him? -GTBacchus(talk) 00:48, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see "we can't let those Korean nationalists inject their bias" as "polite cantankerousness". Maybe I'm just really burned because of how much he insulted me, and I really like that you're pointing out the good in his contributions, Quiddity, but I'm not seeing how we get somewhere workable. What has to happen? I'm interested in solutions, not sighs, because without them, he's going to wear through the community's patience very soon. What do we do to save this guy? Seriously. -GTBacchus(talk) 01:28, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Badagnani again
In your comment [1] you take a shot at me by assuming bad faith:s "Some people just delete everything that offends them and let others sort out what should have remained." See WP:AGF and WP:BATTLE. I'd appreciate it if you removed or refactored this, given you've not discussed it with me in any way.
As we both know Badagnani's behavior is not dependent upon any group of editors behaving a certain way to him. He responds aggressively to all dispute resolution methods, quickly if not immediately assuming bad faith of anyone who disagrees with him.
You wrote, "I don't think he is any more likely to stop being offended when people delete his work without attempting a query first, than the people doing the deleting are likely to start checking each instance thoroughly themselves." I think this is a straw man argument. It doesn't appear to matter how or why others change content, or identify it as problematic. I'd like to see diffs showing that sometimes he behaves civilly. If editors identified material first, new in advance somehow that Badagnani would be offended if it were changed, then contacted him on his talk page, I still think he would respond inappropriately. He simply doesn't appear to understand Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and becomes extremely defensive when he has is put in a position where anyone else would simply discuss the relevant policies and guidelines relevant to the situation. --Ronz (talk) 20:33, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
- It's an RFC/UC, isn't the whole point to point out mistakes in user conduct and action? I consider deleting information without checking and considering it first, to be a mistake. I'm sure you had faith that you were doing what is best for Wikipedia, but I don't consider such an Immediatist attitude to be helpful (except in the case of BLPs, where expediency is often the best course).
- From a handful of pages it is obvious you and GraYoshi were trailing him around. Yes, you were correcting many mistakes he had made, and only some of them were subjective calls, but you were definitely trailing him around. I'd be defensive and react badly if I'd never been wikistalked before, too.
- Has he ever been polite? Here are a few examples of perfectly pleasant talkpage interactions and requests: Talk:Bánh#.22Dumplings.22_and_.22Desserts.22, Talk:Cor_anglais#Enlgish_Horn, Talk:Shahe_fen#Romanization, Talk:Korean_cuisine#History of Dog Meat, Talk:Assam_tea#Significant_changes_to_article, Talk:Âu_Việt#Source. In fact the only instances of unfriendly interaction on article talkpages in the last 250 pages (of which I randomly checked 50 or so) are when GraYoshi or yourself enter the picture Talk:Wolfberry#Potential_sources Talk:Ice-cream_headache#Photo, Talk:Spare_ribs#In_American_cuisine. There, he gets terse and defensive. -- Quiddity (talk) 21:13, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
- I'm sorry I wasted your time. If you're unable to follow WP:AGF and WP:BATTLE, then I think this is futile. Anyone can make anyone else look bad by simply assuming bad faith and demanding that others do more for Wikipedia. --Ronz (talk) 21:52, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not trying to break AGF or BATTLE. I've rephrased it at Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Badagnani#Outside_view_by_Quiddity. Is that what you wanted? If not, how would you suggest I phrase it?
- I believe that you made a subjective error of judgement, and I pointed it out as an example at the RFC. Should I have done so at your talkpage first? It's subjective, which I acknowledge, so I'm not insulting or attacking you in anyway, as far as I can see. Different wikiphilosophies are what led to the antagonism, so they seem relevant. -- Quiddity (talk) 22:33, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
- To clarify, did you check any of those links at List of pipe organ builders? What was the thought process that led you to completely delete an entire list of professional organ builder organizations, and label it all in a single dismissive statement as "linkspam"? Do you understand how that might irritate an article's editors? -- Quiddity (talk) 23:05, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
- I should have used two edits, one for the links in the article, another for the external links. I looked at the edits of one ip spammer that added most (all?) of the links to the article. When I saw that the external links section appeared from the titles to be just links to related organizations plus some obvious linkspam, I removed them as well, per WP:EL, WP:SPAM, and WP:NOTLINK. Appropriate external links for such an article would be lists of pipe organ builders. If you'll look at my edit history, I've made hundreds of nearly identical edits. I usually use the edit summary, "removed section per WP:EL, WP:SPAM, WP:NOTLINK" or a variation on that. --Ronz (talk) 00:42, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
- Did you look at the links you restored? What was your thought process for adding them back? --Ronz (talk) 00:42, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
- My thoughts were thus:
- If I arrived at the list as a reader, I might want to find out further information about people who build pipe organs. If I arrived as an editor, I might want to have some links to prominent and reliable professional organizations who have biographies and histories of the builders and their art (for confirming dates, adding context, etc).
- Some of them provide current information, some provide historic information. We don't have an article on pipe organ builders that it might have been appropriate to move the list to. [Some of the ELs I examined, some I just glanced at - I should have done a more thorough job of it too.]
- As a relatively uninterested reader, the first question I did wonder was how our list of notable builders compared in size to the total number of builders - the external links helped answer that (for example we have articles on 4 notable builders in Canada, and the ISO directory lists 7, with at least 3 on both. In Germany, 14 vs 75.). If I knew anything more about pipe organs, other than the few pages referencing them in the (superb) book Cryptonomicon, I might have other questions that the links could answer (such as - what is needed to be a "certified" pipe organ builder?[2]).
- As for the links within the body of the list, I checked that they were all still alive, and agreed with your decision that if they weren't notable enough to have an article yet, then the links were simply commercial-linkspam creating a mere directory - hence I left them deleted.
- Finally, I strongly believe they should remain within the article, but I'll have to leave that for someone who cares about pipe organ builders to do. I'm much happier with our leaving a copy on the talkpage, than having them deleted altogether.
- In wikiphilosophy terms, I'm much less bothered by who added a link, and more concerned with whether the link is potentially useful. For example, the person who keeps adding this link for the past few days, is utterly in the wrong, primarily because the link provides no useful information at all, and only secondarily because they are "spamming" it, and only secondarily because it is commercial.
- Hope that is all relatively clearly explained, and not too controversial :) -- Quiddity (talk) 18:16, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
- That's your choice, and it's a very helpful approach to take. I saw the editing by the ip, cleaned up that spamming, and cleaned up other links at the same time. I deal with so much of this spamming that I try to be very quick and non-controvesial about it. --Ronz (talk) 18:22, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
- Of course, this has nothing to do with Badagnani.
- As it's plain to see, Badagnani uses the same generic, overblown phrases again and again, but is unable or unwilling to discuss policies in any detail. As you can see in your own interactions with him, he won't even give a simple yes or no. Instead, he looks for someone else to blame, or just uses grandiose exaggerations about what a good editor he is and how his viewpoint is for the good of all Wikipedia. --Ronz (talk) 16:30, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
- You said "I try to be very quick and non-controvesial about it." I think you are trying to be too quick in some of these cases. Haste makes waste. (Wasting editors' time, and wasting relevant information by just deleting it.)
- As for Badagnani, yes, he seems to be ignoring the help/advice offered by myself and GTBacchus. Some people just don't know when to back down. -- Quiddity (talk) 19:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- That's your choice, and it's a very helpful approach to take. I saw the editing by the ip, cleaned up that spamming, and cleaned up other links at the same time. I deal with so much of this spamming that I try to be very quick and non-controvesial about it. --Ronz (talk) 18:22, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
- I'm sorry I wasted your time. If you're unable to follow WP:AGF and WP:BATTLE, then I think this is futile. Anyone can make anyone else look bad by simply assuming bad faith and demanding that others do more for Wikipedia. --Ronz (talk) 21:52, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
RfCs
If "RFC/UC's are structured and used as unpleasant witchhunts," then it's true because people are unwilling to use them in a positive way. I'm glad you contributed to Badagnani's RfC, and I'm sorry if you think it was less than helpful. RfC/UC's could be a lot better if people like you contributed to them. The best way to stop a witchhunt is to show up, and not hunt witches. -GTBacchus(talk) 00:49, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you. And an emphatic thank you for continuing to persevere with the ANI thread and elsewhere. (I lol'd back then). I'll try to continue to chime in if I have anything productive to offer. -- Quiddity (talk) 00:00, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Courtesy notice
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on List of gamelan ensembles in the United States . Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. --Ronz (talk) 19:04, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- I am not reverting to the same instance, and I am not doing so without explanation. I am fixing your mistaken deletions, and providing details when quizzed. Your templating of me is not friendly, and is not relevant in this situation. -- Quiddity (talk) 19:09, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
On a related note, I've started another ANI report Badagnani, discussing his recent edit-warring with you: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#More_edit-warring_by_Badagnani --Ronz (talk) 22:01, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Please focus on content rather than editors
Re: [3], I think refactoring to depersonalize would be a good idea.
Also, am I misunderstanding or are you comparing official websites to Billboard news articles? --Ronz (talk) 19:58, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- Done - thanks for requesting.
- I'm comparing primary sources to primary sources. More at the article talkpage. -- Quiddity (talk) 20:26, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks!
- What sources in List of number-one albums of 2008 (U.S.) do you consider primary, the Billboard articles? --Ronz (talk) 00:35, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- Anything linking to an official site that the article is about, and more. So, everything that links to www.stuy.edu at Stuyvesant High School, and everything that links to www.billboard.com at List of number-one albums of 2008 (U.S.), and everything that links to an interview with a creator in any of our articles. All are WP:PRIMARY sources. Official company faqs, album liner notes, game manuals, country census', news agency surveys, etc. Selfpublished and primary. We use them throughout Wikipedia - the thing we have to make sure of, is that nobody is using them to add Original Research, or anything controversial (puffery, crankery, misinformation, etc). -- Quiddity (talk) 01:08, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks. You're comparing reliable, primary sources to self-published sources. --Ronz (talk) 17:54, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- How are you differentiating http://www.stuy.edu/about/history.php from http://cfa.lmu.edu/programs/music/ensembles.htm?
- Different aspects of each page are "reliable", and both are "self-published". Eg we wouldn't take their word that Stuyvesant "has representatives from virtually every nation in the world and one can find a native speaker of most of the languages of the world." but the rest of the information is clear and probably reliable. Similarly, we wouldn't copy LMU's word that their chorus is "some of the most stunning choral music at the collegiate level", but the facts and figures given are probably reliable. -- Quiddity (talk) 18:14, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks. You're comparing reliable, primary sources to self-published sources. --Ronz (talk) 17:54, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- Anything linking to an official site that the article is about, and more. So, everything that links to www.stuy.edu at Stuyvesant High School, and everything that links to www.billboard.com at List of number-one albums of 2008 (U.S.), and everything that links to an interview with a creator in any of our articles. All are WP:PRIMARY sources. Official company faqs, album liner notes, game manuals, country census', news agency surveys, etc. Selfpublished and primary. We use them throughout Wikipedia - the thing we have to make sure of, is that nobody is using them to add Original Research, or anything controversial (puffery, crankery, misinformation, etc). -- Quiddity (talk) 01:08, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- http://www.stuy.edu/about/history.php and http://cfa.lmu.edu/programs/music/ensembles.htm are both self-published sources. We do have a strict guideline as to how such sources can be used. http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/esearch/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003700470 and similar links are not, nor are they primary sources. Dlabtot (talk) 19:23, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- The policy says: "Primary sources ... include ... historical documents such as diaries, census results, video or transcripts of surveillance, public hearings, trials, or interviews; tabulated results of surveys or questionnaires; original philosophical works; religious scripture; published notes of laboratory and field experiments or observations written by the person(s) who conducted or observed the experiments; and artistic and fictional works such as poems, scripts, screenplays, novels, motion pictures, videos, and television programs." We use primary sources as references throughout Wikipedia.
- The examples in question, at List of gamelan ensembles in the United States are not being misused and are not unreliable for the simple facts they are intended to confirm, and hence don't need the tagging of {{Self-published inline}} throughout. It makes as little sense as tagging the Stuyvesant school references with the same tag. Or the royalsociety.org references at Michael Faraday Prize. Or the juniper.net references at List of acquisitions by Juniper Networks. -- Quiddity (talk) 20:12, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- " The policy you quoted shows Billboard is not an example of a primary source. Thank you for that. You don't seem to be even making an argument that the self-published sources are not self-published, merely that that should not be tagged as such. I must admit that I find your reasoning to be incomprehensible. Dlabtot (talk) 20:29, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- Primary: The Billboard.com link is basing its data on "according to Nielsen SoundScan" data. Billboard is owned by Nielsen Company. I think that makes it fairly close to primary? It's definitely the "official" site, which is the other term that keeps getting interchangeably used in these threads.
- Selfpub: They are obviously self-published, nobody ever claimed they were not. I'm trying to point out that we use self-published sources throughout Wikipedia. That's why the policy starts off with "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves ..." [emphasis in original]. -- Quiddity (talk) 20:35, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- " The policy you quoted shows Billboard is not an example of a primary source. Thank you for that. You don't seem to be even making an argument that the self-published sources are not self-published, merely that that should not be tagged as such. I must admit that I find your reasoning to be incomprehensible. Dlabtot (talk) 20:29, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Removed link
This removed link does indeed verify that this ensemble is one of the official world music ensembles at the university. Please be careful. Badagnani (talk) 07:32, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- Not just the Javanese-ness but the official name as well as its position as one of the official ensembles of the world music department. I've just written to the director asking for the gamelan's Javanese name and date of establishment. Badagnani (talk) 07:44, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
WP:BATTLE
Re: [4] Quiddity, please respect WP:BATTLE, "Wikipedia is a volunteer community, and does not require its users to give any more time and effort than they wish. Focus on improving the encyclopedia itself, rather than demanding more from other users." Thanks! --Ronz (talk) 16:21, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
- What part of "does not require its users to give any more time and effort than they wish" don't you understand? --Ronz (talk) 20:55, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
- The part where it applies to me, but not to you?
- Please note, I am not defending Badagnani's edits, I agree that he could be a better editor - I am instead, pointing out where you could be a better editor yourself, and giving suggestions as to how. Dispute resolution takes ALL editors involved into account.
- You keep asking for outside opinions, so we keep giving them.
- Everyone has room for improvement, not just Badagnani. -- Quiddity (talk) 21:50, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
- "so we keep giving them" If you could do so in a manner that followed WP:TALK, WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, WP:NPA, etc, it would be another matter. When you cannot, you're just making the situation worse. --Ronz (talk) 22:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
- I try very hard to keep my writing civil, and to avoid hyperbole. When a discussion is centered on wikiquette and editor-behaviour problems, it is extremely difficult to use purely-positive language.
- I believe you have the best intentions for Wikipedia, though I think you gave up on Badagnani a while ago. I cannot say this strongly enough: Listen to the advice at the WP:AN3 thread, and avoid interacting with Badagnani - you are not the person who will improve his editing skills. (And if you have any influence with Grayoshi, it would be helpful if he stopped wikihounding Badagnani, too.) -- Quiddity (talk) 05:17, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- Your continued use of WP:HOUND references is improper and uncivil. I'm happy to explain if needed. --Ronz (talk) 16:19, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- I explained above, that I understand how your spam-fighting skills have led you to investigate Badagnani's contributions in detail. However, he is not a vandal/spammer/bad-faith contributor, and the three of you are having trouble communicating with each other: Hence, continuing to pursue his edits across Wikipedia can be considered as wikihounding.
- You are no longer following him to new articles (afaik), but Grayoshi clearly is, as shown by Oculi at the AN3 thread.
- Please do explain your perspective. I always value that. Perspectives are subjective, and it always helps to understand how other people differ from ourselves. -- Quiddity (talk) 18:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- "Hence, continuing to pursue his edits across Wikipedia can be considered as wikihounding." I completely disagree. This conclusion of yours conflicts with WP:HOUND. --Ronz (talk) 18:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- I agree that your and Grayoshi's intentions are to fix problems, which is a very good thing; but because you all cannot communicate successfully with each other, continuing to pursue Badagnani across articles can be interpreted as a form of harassment: "The intended outcome may be to make editing Wikipedia unpleasant for the target, to undermine them, to frighten them, or to discourage them from editing entirely." [emphasis added].
- I completely agree that he has various problems, from bad sourcing to OWN; but because of your history together it is not going to be possible for you to be the one to correct his faults. This is what I and the 2 admins at the AN3 thread are trying to get across. -- Quiddity (talk) 19:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- This is one of the big disagreements. Just because Badagnani acts with hostility to acceptable editing does not mean that editors should stop making acceptable edits. "The important component of wiki-hounding is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or to the project generally, for no overriding reason."
- "because of your history together it is not going to be possible for you to be the one to correct his faults" You're making two incorrect assumptions here, but I don't want to get distracted from the above. --Ronz (talk) 19:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's been over a week since I made the comments above. Are we done here? --Ronz (talk) 21:01, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- I assumed you wanted to ask more questions, due to the thread you started below this. I was waiting for you :)
- To reply to the unasked question: The other big disagreements seem to be whether or not all the editing was acceptable or not.
- Some of it, like removing Badagnani's invisible <!-- --> comments (mentioned below), could be considered as aggressive nitpicking (or whatever description you prefer. from "unfriendly" to "tendencious").
- Some of it, needs to be considered as a subjective opinion on all our parts. Various editors are disagreeing on which external links can be considered useful, and/or whether they can be considered useable according to our varied guidelines. These are legitimate fine-line/grey-area disagreements. Nobody is clearly in the "right" or "wrong", they just have different perspectives (as can be seen by the numbers of editors taking each side in these scattered disputes).
- And then finally, there are Badagnani's unquestionably bad habits, that were being acceptably corrected, like his using a link to a flickr photo, as a ref'd citation.
- If we could separate the complaints about the first 2 points, from the complaints about the 3rd point (and just discuss these ones, for now), I think everything could be more easily communicated by all of us.
- Aside from that, was there a specific question you wanted answered, or were leading up to? -- Quiddity (talk) 02:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if I'm unclear or you're just ignoring, "Just because Badagnani acts with hostility to acceptable editing does not mean that editors should stop making acceptable edits." "The important component of wiki-hounding is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or to the project generally, for no overriding reason." --Ronz (talk) 20:17, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Am I being unclear? The entire reply above, was directly addressing those statements. In grossly condensed form: Some of the editing that Badagnani was reacting with hostility to, was not acceptable editing - Some of the 'corrections' were being made for no overriding reason (or no more than nitpicking). Some of the 'acceptable edits' were subjective.
- I'm not sure how to write it any more clearly. Please ask about anything you find specifically unclear or confusing, from my 02:09, 28 May reply. Or explain what kind of result you hope to see result from our conversation? Or ask something specific?? -- Quiddity (talk) 20:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if I'm unclear or you're just ignoring, "Just because Badagnani acts with hostility to acceptable editing does not mean that editors should stop making acceptable edits." "The important component of wiki-hounding is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or to the project generally, for no overriding reason." --Ronz (talk) 20:17, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- "Hence, continuing to pursue his edits across Wikipedia can be considered as wikihounding." I completely disagree. This conclusion of yours conflicts with WP:HOUND. --Ronz (talk) 18:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- Your continued use of WP:HOUND references is improper and uncivil. I'm happy to explain if needed. --Ronz (talk) 16:19, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- "so we keep giving them" If you could do so in a manner that followed WP:TALK, WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, WP:NPA, etc, it would be another matter. When you cannot, you're just making the situation worse. --Ronz (talk) 22:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Badagnani's articles
Trying to start a new topic here, in the hope that we can have a civil discussion. To start, would you agree that he does not understand how to properly verify information in articles with reliable sources? --Ronz (talk) 22:50, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, He sometimes uses poor sources (unreliable or otherwise).
- As a related question: Do you agree that not all sentences need sources? And to clarify: Do you agree that articles can exist happily in different stages of development? (This is primarily in regards to David Oei's article, though the ramifications are everywhere. From Language to Special:Random) -- Quiddity (talk) 05:17, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- Am I supposed to take these questions seriously? --Ronz (talk) 16:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yes.
- You didn't answer any of the questions about David Oei at the AN3 thread, so I'm trying to clarify where you stand on these matters. -- Quiddity (talk) 18:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- Am I supposed to take these questions seriously? --Ronz (talk) 16:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- I don't recall if it was you or Grayoshi, but someone was edit-warring over Badagnani's hidden comments within articles. I just found WP:HIDDEN, which you should be aware of. -- Quiddity (talk) 19:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
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Delivered by SoxBot (talk) at 13:23, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for the heads up
Whenever we post a bunch of notices or banners, there's always someone who targets a page or two. Not bad though, considering we posted them on hundreds of pages - part of an effort to increase awareness of and involvement in the development of the outlines.
By the way, the Category:Lists of topics by country is now cleaned up (split into indexes and outlines).
The Transhumanist 03:01, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Jazz standards
Hi! I've reorganized List of jazz standards (basically, split it in four) and changed the table format into a bullet format with some info on each tune. Since you participated in the merger discussion earlier, I thought you might want to check out the articles and give some feedback on the split (and possibly how to improve the articles). I've explained my changes in detail here. The text format I'm proposing is demonstrated at List of jazz standards (before 1930). I'd like to get some feedback on the proposed format before changing the other articles as well. You can compare the current version with the old version, which was in table format. Thanks for your time! Jafeluv (talk) 15:33, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Dab
I've replied to his gripe at WP:VPP#"Outlines".
The Transhumanist 23:13, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
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Delivered by SoxBot (talk) at 04:01, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
WPOOK update - 05/27/2009
Input on the OOK threads at the Village Pump has died down (at both WP:VPP and WP:VPR), and there is currently no consensus on either.
Negative feedback
For the number of notices we posted (over a thousand) the number of complaints we received (the two VP threads mentioned above) was quite low.
Silent majority
Considering most of the outlines are orphans, they get pretty good use.
Note that people who are happy with articles on Wikipedia generally don't say anything, so I simply interpret it as positive feedback.
Traffic, traffic comparison, and increasing traffic
Using Traffic, I compare the traffic of articles, their corresponding outlines, and their corresponding portals from time to time.
Outlines are starting to catch up to portals. Though the main portals, which are included in a navbar menu at the top of most portals are still way ahead of their outline counterparts.
Both outlines and portals are way behind the articles on the same subjects. Articles usually have 20 to 30 times the traffic.
Keep in mind that most outlines are orphans, with the primary link to them being Portal:Contents/Outline of knowledge.
Traffic should improve once we include links on the corresponding subject pages, including the main subject as well as subjects that correspond to subheadings (e.g., History of x, and in the case of countries: Geography of x, Demographics of x, Culture of x, etc.)
I'm convinced the traffic of outlines will overtake portals once we've link-integrated them into the encyclopedia. And since outlines serve as tables of contents for each subject, it seems most fitting to place links to them in the form of hatnotes at the top of each subject's main articles (and the sub-subjects mentioned in the paragraph directly above).
By the way, there's another traffic counter called Wikirank, but I haven't tested it out much yet, but will do so in the coming weeks.
Going for the Main Page
Once the traffic of outlines has overtaken portals, it will be time to replace portals on the Main Page, even if we need to spearhead a new main page redesign! This isn't a far-fetched idea. I was the one who jumpstarted and led the project responsible for the current main page design (until it hit critical mass and attracted other leaders), and I was also the most active editor on that project. I even created the WP:CBB on the Community Portal to promote the main page election. The second time around should be easier.
Back to the here and now
Targetting the Main Page is a few months off.
Right now, we need to continue posting notices and start link-integrating the OOK into the encyclopedia.
I have a whole slew of AWB tasks to assign. I hope you are ready. :)
Spread the word
WP:WPOOK needs members. Tell all your friends about the OOK, and get them to join.
The Transhumanist 02:50, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Hello Q, any insights on this for curiosity's sake?
I recently placed a {{stuck}} tag at the beginning of a VP proposal thread that was going absolutely nowhere re: changing the tab text for the "History" tab at the top of all articles, and got reverted. Here's the diff. I'm thinking that to avoid stragglers dropping by an obviously dead discussion that really can be discussed in other venues or needs clarification on the issues involved i.e. GFDL, a "stuck" tag works. What is your interpretation of the correct use for the "stuck" tag, isn't the thread in question a good candidate for it's use? DISCLAIMER: I am not fighting the fact that the tag was deleted, am not planning to refer to your opinion to replace it, or have anything else, even a strong opinion on the subject, to add to the thread. I just wonder what you see as an appropriate general interpretation of the template's suggested use. Sswonk (talk) 11:56, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'd guess the template was originally developed for something like the helpdesk, or referencedesk. Hmm, maybe not. Looking at the whatlinkshere for it it seems to come from the wikiquette alerts page. (History is displayed in order of earliest page-creation (afaik)). It was only used (or at least preserved) a couple of times in vpump archives.
- I see it so rarely, I wouldn't know when to use it without investigation (or template:resolved). I'd extrapolate that its use is ambiguous to lots of editors, and so perhaps whomever removed it though it was being used as - a way to prolong the discussion? (Whereas you could instead have been marking it for a summation of why the idea fell flat - as a concise explanation for the future archived thread. Or, you could have been doing it the way you explained above.). Multi-perspective is tricky.
- Regarding the poll itself, it wasn't the right place, and would need much better investigation prior to making a proposal, for example comparing what all the sister-projects and interlanguage wikis use.
- Personally, I like "page history".
- Hopefully, it's one of the problems that the usability study will address and solve and implement, with rapidity. (ha!) The 4 tabs, representing 6 unique destinations, is a messy concept all around.
- [unrelatedly, I stumbled upon the first few edits to the foundation's lawyer's usertalkpage [5], [6], [7], [8], which was worth a grin] -- Quiddity (talk) 20:37, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Ben Steinbauer & "Winnebago Man"
Hi Quiddity,
Thanks for bringing that to my attention. It's kinda weird, I can't find much info on production dates, etc, either. I might put a note up on the talk page...
Cheers. --— Hugh 08:17, 28 May 2009 (UTC
Color scheme
I tell you what, I invite you to propose three colors for Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy so everything matches, talk page, templates, etcetera. At some point in the future I would like to have each task force its own consistent color scheme also. Be well. Pontiff Greg Bard (talk) 02:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)