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I have moved it. [[User:Pass a Method|<font color="grey" face="Tahoma">Pass a Method</font>]] [[User talk:Pass a Method|<font color="grey" face="papyrus">talk</font>]] 21:52, 9 February 2013 (UTC) |
I have moved it. [[User:Pass a Method|<font color="grey" face="Tahoma">Pass a Method</font>]] [[User talk:Pass a Method|<font color="grey" face="papyrus">talk</font>]] 21:52, 9 February 2013 (UTC) |
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:I have reverted to move. I don't see a consensus here, and it's not up to you as the user whose page this is. [[User:StAnselm|<b>St</b>]][[Special:Contributions/StAnselm|Anselm]] ([[User talk:StAnselm|talk]]) 00:16, 10 February 2013 (UTC) |
:I have reverted to move. I don't see a consensus here, and it's not up to you as the user whose page this is. [[User:StAnselm|<b>St</b>]][[Special:Contributions/StAnselm|Anselm]] ([[User talk:StAnselm|talk]]) 00:16, 10 February 2013 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''' Consensus requires quality arguments. Well, a page move i think is appropriate because several people have commented favorably on this essay and felt it was relevant on various topics including recently on an rfc thread. I have also improved it somewhat since the last debate. Also it was discussed above and i left the discussion open for 4 days and no concurrent arguments against it remain which have not been addressed. I have also seen multiple editors raise this issue on threads outside of my scope without directly referring to this essay. Therefore it clearly meets the criteria of being an evolving expression of multiple editors. Furthermore, this essay is possibly even more relevant to the wikipedia community than many other essays in wikipedia space considering it has been built by multiple editors, it was supported by multiple editors in an mfd, it uses various guidelines such as references, something which many others in essay space have not done. Finally, if it eventually lacks community support, there is always the option of lowerng its importance scale rate. [[User:Pass a Method|<font color="grey" face="Tahoma">Pass a Method</font>]] [[User talk:Pass a Method|<font color="grey" face="papyrus">talk</font>]] 01:25, 10 February 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 01:25, 10 February 2013
Discussion of examples
I would really like specific examples. I think WP has been effective in bringing NRMs to light and that making sourcing more stringent might prevent some articles from qualifying on a notability basis, thus keeping their activities under the radar. Campus groups come to mind, and college newspapers seem to be the most reliable (if only) source as to what actually occurs at the university level. I do think that since encyclopedias should focus on facts, a premium should be placed on at least a concise epistemology ('Org "XYZ" believes the Bible should be interpreted literally'), clarifying organizational elements, and clear discussion of any criticisms. I would hope that the Flying Spaghetti Monster might serve as a guide in this. (Well, maybe not literally) :) Are there places where you see WP falling short of the glory of his noodley appendages? ClaudeReigns (talk) 14:28, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
It's worth noting that Christians care far more about the veracity of their beliefs than most other religions. I read a great book called A Short History of Myth by Karen Armstrong, which discussed how Christians became obsessed with their tenets being logical and Biblically derived, when essentially every culture from which they draw their tradition wasn't really concerned with an empirical truth, but rather in a more conceptual, spiritual understanding. That is to say, in many ways the ancient Greeks and Nordic tribes wouldn't have objected to their religions being called myth and folklore. Martin Luther would have certainly objected to these terms being applied to Christianity, but that's why he rejected all of the dogmas of the Catholic mainstream, in favor of a more rational faith. On the other hand, Sufists and Kabbalists don't object to being termed mystics, nor do the Eastern Orthodox, who are often described as more mystically or fantastically inclined. — Francophonie&Androphilie(Je vous invite à me parler) 15:36, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
- Well, "myth" is an ancient Greek word, but it didn't mean to the ancient Greeks what it means to us. Nicias was a contemporary of Socrates and Plato, but "Just as the Athenians were preparing to sail home, on August 28, there was a lunar eclipse, and Nicias ... asked the priests what he should do. They suggested the Athenians wait for another 27 days, and Nicias agreed" despite the dire situation ... the result was "the entire expeditionary force was killed, captured or sold into slavery" and the eventual fall of the democracy of Athens. (See Sicilian Expedition - which also has some other examples of Athenians taking acts of petty vandalism to be serious and important "omens"). These, the archetypal ancient Greeks, took their superstition pretty seriously and really did see it as directly empirically relevant to day to day events. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 15:53, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not saying that they didn't believe in the validity of their myths. But they didn't have the same disposition to regard them on a factual basis - whether or not anyone had ever personally seen a god was immaterial, as opposed to now, when Catholic scholars present countless arguments demonstrating the Biblical roots of original sin, a concept created by St. Augustine, drawing from Socratic philosophy. The ancient Greek religion was as much an allegory for way the world worked as it was a recounting of tales. — Francophonie&Androphilie(Je vous invite à me parler) 16:15, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
Again, please show me the bias. I may be inclined to agree, but I would like to see examples. ClaudeReigns (talk) 20:27, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
- I find the use of adherence statistics disturbing. In my country, Australia, obviously Christian editors delight in finding seemingly well sourced figures that show us that huge proportions of the population are Christian. These come from an optional question on our national census where people are asked about their religion. The results are not correlated with anything else, and dramatically contradict the much lower figures that are available on regular church attendance. Publishing the inflated figures is more like advertising than truth. HiLo48 (talk) 22:53, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
- Found one. This article reads like Wikipedia is saying this stuff actually happened. Very little attempt to distance the voice of the writing from fact. Tons of reference to Torah as an RS. ClaudeReigns (talk) 00:04, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- If articles like this are going to be discussed, then the essay should be renamed to reflect a more general approach. StAnselm (talk) 00:14, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- Or perhaps I could focus on statements in namespace such as "The active obedience of Christ comprises the totality of his actions."[unbalanced opinion?][neutrality is disputed] ClaudeReigns (talk) 22:52, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- That's ridiculous - it's simply the definition. You've been horribly selective in your quoting, for the next clause has "which Christians believe..." You're grasping at straws here, I'm afraid. StAnselm (talk) 23:20, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for calling my idea ridiculous. Civility warning number one. The statement presupposes an obedience to what I view as man-made rules ascribed to an imaginary metaphysical entity as borne out in purported actions derived from a narrative documentary which is an anthology wherein certain authors were included and others suppressed. The further blanket statements about what Christians believe effectively serves to push the POV of a certain view of Christianity. (See: Gnosticism for a different take.) A truly neutral article would define the doctrine without such presuppositions. The fact that the article was featured on the front page demonstrates that the bias is systemic. In a sentence, how should an atheist understand the active obedience of Christ? I propose that a more neutral statement might be: "The active obedience of Christ is a doctrine held by many Christians that all of the actions of Jesus as related in canon were perfectly obedient to biblical law." (not "Law of God" which is not the article title.) At the main Jesus article, we do not make the mistake of representing all Christians as holding the belief that he was the Son of God. But elsewhere, Wikipedia seems to endorse liberally views which are not universal. ClaudeReigns (talk) 04:19, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- The active obedience is not so much a doctrine, but a concept with Christian theology. But I have added the words "in Christian theology" to clarify. I agree with you about "law" not having a capital letter (per WP:DOCTCAPS) but "law of God" is perfectly acceptable. StAnselm (talk) 06:47, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- As far as the sinlessness of Christ goes, can you show me an example of a document in Gnostic Christianity that rejects it? The article doesn't say that every Christian hold to it, it only implies that Christians generally hold it. And I don't know of any Christian denomination that rejects the idea. StAnselm (talk) 07:05, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- Anyway, this is really a discussion for the article talk page... StAnselm (talk) 20:31, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- No thank you. The gargantuan task of resolving the NPOV issues surrounding what I insist are articles about doctrine (see below) seems Sisyphean without a strongly worded essay and at least marginal consensus among editors to support the effort. It's not just about one article. ClaudeReigns (talk) 03:44, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
- This would seem to disregard normal Wikipedia processes. Many essays refer to previous wording of articles that have been changed by consensus, but to criticise current wording in an essay while refusing to take one's concerns to the article's talk page isn't acceptable. I have removed the example, and I suggest you try to obtain consensus here before adding it back in. StAnselm (talk) 04:29, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
- No thank you. The gargantuan task of resolving the NPOV issues surrounding what I insist are articles about doctrine (see below) seems Sisyphean without a strongly worded essay and at least marginal consensus among editors to support the effort. It's not just about one article. ClaudeReigns (talk) 03:44, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
- Anyway, this is really a discussion for the article talk page... StAnselm (talk) 20:31, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for calling my idea ridiculous. Civility warning number one. The statement presupposes an obedience to what I view as man-made rules ascribed to an imaginary metaphysical entity as borne out in purported actions derived from a narrative documentary which is an anthology wherein certain authors were included and others suppressed. The further blanket statements about what Christians believe effectively serves to push the POV of a certain view of Christianity. (See: Gnosticism for a different take.) A truly neutral article would define the doctrine without such presuppositions. The fact that the article was featured on the front page demonstrates that the bias is systemic. In a sentence, how should an atheist understand the active obedience of Christ? I propose that a more neutral statement might be: "The active obedience of Christ is a doctrine held by many Christians that all of the actions of Jesus as related in canon were perfectly obedient to biblical law." (not "Law of God" which is not the article title.) At the main Jesus article, we do not make the mistake of representing all Christians as holding the belief that he was the Son of God. But elsewhere, Wikipedia seems to endorse liberally views which are not universal. ClaudeReigns (talk) 04:19, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- That's ridiculous - it's simply the definition. You've been horribly selective in your quoting, for the next clause has "which Christians believe..." You're grasping at straws here, I'm afraid. StAnselm (talk) 23:20, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- Or perhaps I could focus on statements in namespace such as "The active obedience of Christ comprises the totality of his actions."[unbalanced opinion?][neutrality is disputed] ClaudeReigns (talk) 22:52, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- If articles like this are going to be discussed, then the essay should be renamed to reflect a more general approach. StAnselm (talk) 00:14, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- Found one. This article reads like Wikipedia is saying this stuff actually happened. Very little attempt to distance the voice of the writing from fact. Tons of reference to Torah as an RS. ClaudeReigns (talk) 00:04, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
Semantic discussions of religion highly relevant here
StAnselm brings up a point to which a valid reply is required. Semantics are highly relevant to an objective understanding of religion. When he says, 'It's not a doctrine, it's a concept' it's easy to draw comparison to other semantic arguments theists make such as 'Jesus is my savior, not my religion'. The same formula applies. A trivial truth is used to negate an unrelated point. (In the latter case, refutation of a strawman argument). What is a doctrine, then? According to Merriam-Webster: a)"Something that is taught" b) "A principle position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or belief: DOGMA."[1] There is a very real reason that these positions should not be stated as fact in a Wikipedia article.
The term indoctrination came to have awkward connotations during the 20th century, but it is necessary to retain it, in order to distinguish it from education. In education one is asked to stand as much as possible outside the body of accumulated knowledge and analyze it oneself. In indoctrination on the other hand, one stands within the body of knowledge and absorbs its teachings without critical thought.[2]
The NPOV requirement on Wikipedia is necessary to ensure we fulfill the project's stated goal - knowledge - and never engage in indoctrination. This is the reason we insist on distance. So when we make a statement about belief in namespace without regard to prominent adherents of opposing views, it's a problem.
The concept of identifying doctrines
The given example, which I have admitted is a commonality in namespace, was given ample opportunity to be peer-reviewed. Several assumptions about the belief are made which ignore minority viewpoints, which, taken as a whole, actually represent the majority. The assumptively worded doctrine is a principle of the Christology of Calvinism. Per the consensus that Christology is a doctrinal set, we see that 'the active obedience of Christ' fits the very definition of a principle (not principal) position in a branch of belief. The fact that it is also a general idea derived from a specific example[3] is irrelevant.
Ignoring that atheists believe that the totality of the actions of Jesus Christ cannot be known, ignoring the position of Gnostic Christians who do not believe that Christ was perfect, ignoring even the relational view being refined within current thought that Christ was obeying the explicit commands of his Father rather more than obeying an abstract principle of divine law,[4] namespace becomes a soapbox. All of these points of view on the whole constitute a majority which should be respected in namespace. Pointing out that this is a doctrine is the first and most important remedy. Where significant contrasting viewpoints within Christianity also differ on this point, blanket statements about what 'Christians believe' also does not serve. What I have outlined in namespace avoids all that. A better criticism of what now appears in the essay might be to eliminate "many" as a weasel word and clearly delineate who believes this doctrine and who doesn't. ClaudeReigns (talk) 03:44, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
References
- ^ "doctrine". Merriam-Webster. Retrieved 2012-12-10.
- ^ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine
- ^ "concept". Merriam Webster. Retrieved 2012-12-10.
- ^
Lee Strobel (1998). The Case for Christ. Zondervan. p. 160.
That is, he functioned like God when his Heavenly Father gave him explicit sanction to do so. Now that's much closer. The difficulty is that there is a sense in which the eternal Son has always acted in line with his Father's commandments. You don't want to lose that, even in eternity past. But it's getting closer.
- To Adjwilley, i've been doing some research into the largest religions in the western outside the largest "cclassic" 7, (which are Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Baha'i, Sikhism). I did this because i feel like on most articles only the above 7 get covered, and many of the groups outside the classical" group are ignored. I sought to correct that. It has nothing to do with diluting the Abrahamic POV, but rather to amplify the under-reported non-classical and non-Abrahamic religions.Pass a Method talk 09:35, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
Practical
I think not enough is being done to tackle the bias talked about on this page, but i'm not sure how to tackle it. Hence we might need something a bit more specific/practical.
In response to ClaudeReigns, i think your adddition is ok. Pass a Method talk 08:31, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
- I think a big part of the problem you perceive may be based on a flawed understanding of wikipedia policies and guidelines, particularly as there have been no particular examples yet provided of this alleged bias. We certainly could use some specific examples of where this alleged bias is found, with some indication based on independent reliable sources that there does exist such a bias in those pages. Please indicate specific examples where this alleged bias exists, if possible with independent reliable sources which support it. Based on the additions to best and most reliable sources, honestly, at least some of us are trying to make an effort to determine which sources qualify as such for matters of WP:NOTABILITY, WP:RS, WP:WEIGHT, and the like. I am among them. If the above editor could point out some specific sources which are regarded by the academic and religious communities as the best and most reliable sources, something I have not yet seen, that would be very useful. John Carter (talk) 22:57, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Image
Does this really need a crude and only vaguely-on-topic image that more than one editor deemed inappropriate at the MfD, and which is (at the default thumbnail size) too small for the text to be clearly read? What are we losing by removing or replacing it? Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:38, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- I think "more than one editor" is a little bit disingenuous. Several dozen editors commented at the MfD, of whom only two or three thought the image was "inappropriate". I'd say that percentage is consistent with the proportion of editors who simply happen not to "get" the image, or rather believe erroneously that it's saying something that it's not.
- How is the proposal to have the image deleted from Commons coming along?
- Regarding the legibility, the text is legible at the size the image is rendered in the essay, on my setup. But I've been told that PNG images that look fine at a certain size in Firefox, are illegibly blurry at the same size in IE9. I've no objection to making the image bigger - my original choice of size was to avoid it distracting unduly from the essay itself.
- What image would you replace it with? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 16:12, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- It is not mandatory for articles to have lead images, and that goes doubly for essays on abstract concepts of Wikipedia culture where the illustrative quality of the image is questionable. The text is just about legible to editors with good eyesight at the default thumbnail size on an appropriate user agent, but that only gets us so far, and embiggening images for the sake of clarity is not something that should be done simply because of the low quality of the original source. I've no problem with the image remaining on Commons given the license; the whole point of Commons is to collect free content of that sort. That doesn't imply we need to force ourselves to find uses for it. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 21:09, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
Redirects
A deletion discussion about the redirects to this essay is being held at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2012 December 18. StAnselm (talk) 21:21, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
userspace?
Why? Should be moved to essay-space. Fully support this. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 09:07, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- Category:User essays says "An essay here may be moved categorically into the Wikipedia namespace, Category:Wikipedia essays, if it is frequently referenced, as evidenced by becoming an evolving expression of multiple editors." StAnselm (talk) 09:14, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- I support it too. Pass a Method talk 22:05, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- I support this being moved to essay-space. It's remarkable and unusual that it has been moved to userspace. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:46, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- It hasn't been "moved" to userspace - it started in userspace. I also don't know what you mean about "remarkable and unusual" - many of the keep !votes at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Pass a Method/Christian POV on Wikipedia were on the basis that this was in userspace. StAnselm (talk) 00:27, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- I agree in that this should be moved to the essay space. Greengreengreenred 23:58, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- I support this being moved to essay-space. It's remarkable and unusual that it has been moved to userspace. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:46, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- I support it too. Pass a Method talk 22:05, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- I've moved it to where it's supposed to be. I'm faintly alarmed that there is now an infinitely large herd of unicorns following me around, everywhere I go... --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:31, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Anyway, I oppose the move since it doesn't fulfil the move criteria. As far as I can see, only User:Pass a Method has cited it in discussions. StAnselm (talk) 00:33, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- Reverted the move. There is no consensus yet - indeed, none of my arguments have been addressed. StAnselm (talk) 00:36, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- User:StAnselm has unilaterally moved the essay back from essayspace to userspace. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:35, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- A couple notes: StAnselm is correct that the essay started in the userspace (it was not ever in the Wikipedia space until today), and as far as I have seen, User:Pass a Method is the only one who cites the essay. Also...just something to consider, as far as I can tell, the essay mainly represents the point of view of the author. One thing the author may want to consider is that if the essay is moved to Wikipedia space, it will be edited mercilessly, and may be MfD'd again. (I should probably also note that while I don't really care where it ends up, in its current state, it's probably not ready for WP space.) ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:55, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- Demiurge1000, i aree with your sentiment about "unicorns following you around". I have seen several editors support a move into essay space, so i dont see enough objections. Pass a Method talk 19:04, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
I have moved it. Pass a Method talk 21:52, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
- I have reverted to move. I don't see a consensus here, and it's not up to you as the user whose page this is. StAnselm (talk) 00:16, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
- Comment Consensus requires quality arguments. Well, a page move i think is appropriate because several people have commented favorably on this essay and felt it was relevant on various topics including recently on an rfc thread. I have also improved it somewhat since the last debate. Also it was discussed above and i left the discussion open for 4 days and no concurrent arguments against it remain which have not been addressed. I have also seen multiple editors raise this issue on threads outside of my scope without directly referring to this essay. Therefore it clearly meets the criteria of being an evolving expression of multiple editors. Furthermore, this essay is possibly even more relevant to the wikipedia community than many other essays in wikipedia space considering it has been built by multiple editors, it was supported by multiple editors in an mfd, it uses various guidelines such as references, something which many others in essay space have not done. Finally, if it eventually lacks community support, there is always the option of lowerng its importance scale rate. Pass a Method talk 01:25, 10 February 2013 (UTC)