Notagainst (talk | contribs) |
Notagainst (talk | contribs) |
||
Line 191: | Line 191: | ||
The details here are sometimes quite difficult, so take your time to read the links I sent you. I know I made a lot of mistakes with this when I started here (fortunately, the Dutch wiki is bit more forgiving of these mistakes, good learning ground), it just takes willingless to learn and some time :). [[User:Femkemilene|Femke Nijsse]] ([[User talk:Femkemilene|talk]]) 21:10, 22 September 2019 (UTC) |
The details here are sometimes quite difficult, so take your time to read the links I sent you. I know I made a lot of mistakes with this when I started here (fortunately, the Dutch wiki is bit more forgiving of these mistakes, good learning ground), it just takes willingless to learn and some time :). [[User:Femkemilene|Femke Nijsse]] ([[User talk:Femkemilene|talk]]) 21:10, 22 September 2019 (UTC) |
||
: @Femke Nijsse I appreciate your good intentions here. However, now you seem to be claiming that I have breached WP:OR. That is far more specific - and helpful - than vague claims about wikivoice. |
: @Femke Nijsse I appreciate your good intentions here. However, now you seem to be claiming that I have breached WP:OR. That is far more specific - and helpful - than vague global claims about wikivoice. |
||
: Perhaps you can give me a specific example of where I have claimed in the article that there IS a climate crisis, as opposed to quoting a RS which says so. Or is your concern actually about WP:OR rather than wikivoice. If so, why didn't you say so? If editors on this issue want me to understand their concerns, they need to be a great deal more specific than they have been to date - and point out actual examples in the article of what you/they are concerned about. [[User:Notagainst|Notagainst]] ([[User talk:Notagainst#top|talk]]) 05:57, 23 September 2019 (UTC) |
: Perhaps you can give me a specific example of where I have claimed in the article that there IS a climate crisis, as opposed to quoting a RS which says so. Or is your concern actually about WP:OR rather than wikivoice. If so, why didn't you say so? If editors on this issue want me to understand their concerns, they need to be a great deal more specific than they have been to date - and point out actual examples in the article of what you/they are concerned about. [[User:Notagainst|Notagainst]] ([[User talk:Notagainst#top|talk]]) 05:57, 23 September 2019 (UTC) |
Revision as of 07:11, 23 September 2019
Welcome!
Hello, Notagainst, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:
You may also want to complete the Wikipedia Adventure, an interactive tour that will help you learn the basics of editing Wikipedia. You can visit the Teahouse to ask questions or seek help.
Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or , and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! XenonNSMB (talk, contribs) 01:07, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
April 2019
Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. It appears that you copied or moved text from Ecocide into another page. While you are welcome to re-use Wikipedia's content, here or elsewhere, Wikipedia's licensing does require that you provide attribution to the original contributor(s). When copying within Wikipedia, this is supplied at minimum in an edit summary at the page into which you've copied content, disclosing the copying and linking to the copied page, e.g., copied content from [[page name]]; see that page's history for attribution
. It is good practice, especially if copying is extensive, to also place a properly formatted {{copied}} template on the talk pages of the source and destination. The attribution has been provided for this situation, but if you have copied material between pages before, even if it was a long time ago, please provide attribution for that duplication. You can read more about the procedure and the reasons at Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. Thank you. Doug Weller talk 11:05, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
Negativity and prejudice on GT article?
Hi Notagainst, and thanks for the contributions and support on the Greta article. Am I the only one who has noticed a definite negative bias from our favourite Wiki editor (naming no names), who removes a lot of content and adds puffery templates at the drop of a hat? If this is all just inside my head, by all means tell me, because I'm beginning to feel I'm either on to something or I'm losing my mind. Paranoia strikes! :) Cadar (talk) 21:02, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
Task force climate change
Hello Notagainst,
I saw you're one of the main editors of the Greta Thunberg. Given your interest in climate change related articles, I invite you to have a look at the Wikipedia:WikiProject Environment/Climate change task force. It's been inactive for a while, but I strongly believe that this topic should have an active group of collaborating editors to help each other with a critical eye. If you'd like to contribute, please add your name to the participants section, add some task to the to-do list or help make the to-do list a bit shorter.
Femke Nijsse (talk) 19:55, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
Apologies for erroneous rollback
Apologies for my erroneous rollback on Greta Thunberg. I will be more careful in the future. --Count Count (talk) 08:20, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
Copying licensed material requires attribution
Hi. I see in a recent addition to Climate change in New Zealand you included material from a webpage that is available under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 New Zealand (CC BY 3.0 NZ)] license. That's okay, but you have to give attribution so that our readers are made aware that you copied the prose rather than wrote it yourself. I've added the attribution for this particular instance. Please make sure that you follow this licensing requirement when copying from compatibly-licensed material in the future. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 22:46, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Disambiguation link notification for June 20
Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Climate change in New Zealand, you added links pointing to the disambiguation pages Stuff and James Shaw (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are usually incorrect, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of unrelated topics with similar titles. (Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.)
It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 14:02, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
Proposed deletion of New Zealand Climate Science Coalition
Hello Notagainst
Thank you for all your work on the Wikipedia articles relating to the climate crisis in New Zealand. You have done some really good work on this topic.
The proposed deletion of New Zealand Climate Science Coalition is objected because this is a notable organisation in the history of the climate crisis in New Zealand. This entity was very active in New Zealand, opposing any moves to address climate change and publicly attacking NIWA for publishing evidence of climate change. There was a [high profile court case] taken against NIWA. This is important New Zealand history, and is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia. You have correctly pointed out that much of this article needs updating, and perhaps this organisation is now defunct. However, that is not grounds for deleting the article.
If you have further points to support deletion of the article, please put them on the article talk page. --Pakaraki (talk) 22:24, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
If this is still a concern, see WP:Articles for deletion NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:25, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
New WikiProject proposal: Climate Change
Hi Notagainst, thought you might like to pitch in with support for the proposal for the new WikiProject. I'm not sure how to get a working Wikilink to the correct page, but here's the direct link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals/Climate_Change
Would be great if you could join us!
Best, Cadar (talk) 21:57, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
DS Alert - Climate change
This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.
You have shown interest in climate change. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect. Any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.
For additional information, please see the guidance on discretionary sanctions and the Arbitration Committee's decision here. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.
Template:Z33 NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 02:10, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Comments
Just sending this FYI to everyone recently in the topic area who doesn't have one in the last 12 months. And before I posted here, I sent one to myself too. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 02:04, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Disambiguation link notification for July 23
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Climate change in New Zealand, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page James Shaw (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).
(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 07:48, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
Proposed new article "Climate crisis"
Hi, I welcome your interest in "Climate crisis" framing, and there sure are abundant RSs to support an article about that framing. See WP:NEOLOGISM for an example guideline that describes articles about phrases. If you want write about "climate crisis" that would be a good approach. At Effects of global warming, the aggregate section needs updating to AR5. A lot of the text is based on AR3. As you may know AR5 is from 2013/2014, and is a review of even older papers which themselves are based on even older data. In contrast, AR3 (that much of our text is based upon) is 14 years older! So it needs updating. Sure, its not a head on club 'em over the head "climate crisis" writing, but the labor of doing the update would drive at the same point without looking like 2019 spin/framing tacked on top of 2001 outdated text. Cheers NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:50, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
(Later) I added article text in place of the existing redir. See Climate crisis. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:28, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
EW
Caution, you're edit warring at Effects of global warming. When you get reverted, please use the talk page. For the howtos and whyfors see WP:BRD. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:27, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
- I'm still in help the new editor mode. Do you know how to count reverts? That's a key part of the 3RR policy and I'd hate to see you get socked with a block. Just because I disagree here or there means I'm paying attention. Fact I don't disagree EVERYWHERE is because most of your work is excllent and apperciated. So if I (or anyone) disagrees, please don't take it personally. Talk to the person. And wait for a reply. You'll build colleagues that way and this place becomes fun. Anyway, in case you don't know how to count reverts please study your own work at Effects of... today.
- Bold edit - Article overhaul over 24 hrs series ending 06:18 July 26
- REVERT 1, Two edit series ending 20:10 July 26
- REVERT 2, Edit at 22:57 July 26
Note that you don't have to break 3RR to be blocked for edit warring. Insufficient discussion at the first or second revert can be grounds for blocking (often taking the unwary by surprise and leaving bitter scars). Some eds bounce back when they get surprised like that. I'd hate to lose yours, and that's why I'm trying to offer some cautions.
If you don't want advice and coaching of this sort from me, just say so. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:43, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
- I have a degree in Criminology and am currently doing an Honours paper called Crimes against the Environment which is all about global warming and climate change. I don't know what qualifications or knowledge you have in this field, but normally the person with the most knowledge and experience would be the one who does the coaching. You may be more experienced than I am on wikipedia but I don't think that entitles you to add material to pages about climate change that is vague or only half the story (which is what I perceive you to be doing). So what qualifications do you have that are relevant to the subject matter. Let's clarify that first before we discuss coaching. Notagainst (talk) 05:51, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for your hard work on your honors paper and general interest and hard work trying to make the climate pages better. Your Wikipedia life will be hard if you can't learn to disagree with friends instead of enemies. More things you should probably read are
- WP:PRIVACY
- WP:Expert editors
- and while we're at it, maybe re-read WP:Assume good faith.
- As for my subject matter credentials, please see this short video.
- I've been operating on WP:DONTBITE, but that does have limits and though I'd like to be friends, I only dig so long before deciding the well is dry. Wikipedia coaching mode off.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:47, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
- PS come to think of it I do have one other thing to add.... on the subject of "vague".... AGW is obviously a vast topic that takes more than one article. Where you see vagueness in a single article, I might be seeing a more-or-less organized hierarchy of articles that try to stay on their specific WP:TOPIC while providing links to related details at other articles. I've been working on the climate pages off and on since 2011. In terms of longterm maintainence and upkeep, the overlap is a malignant tumor. Not sure that changes your mind about your perceptions of vagueness, but wanted to be sure you included this reflection in your assessment. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:09, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for your hard work on your honors paper and general interest and hard work trying to make the climate pages better. Your Wikipedia life will be hard if you can't learn to disagree with friends instead of enemies. More things you should probably read are
Implied motives
When speaking of my objections to your edit, your statement Clearly it has nothing to do with verifiability
, that sure sounds like you're calling my stated reason citing verifiability a lie and implying some secret nefarious agenda on my part. But I must have misunderstood, because the P&G says WP:No personal attacks. Getting back to what matters (article content) it has everything to do with verifiability, as I have explained - again - at the article talk page. Down the road, please keep your thoughts about hidden agendas to yourself. Thanks. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:28, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
- You seem to be taking this very personally. The 97% has nothing to do with verifiability because no where in any of your arguments have you said that the 97% figure (which leads to the descriptor of 'broad' or 'almost unanimous') is unverified. That doesn't mean I think you are lying. It just means your objection to the inclusion of that information is based on some other perception or WP rule that, so far, you have not made clear.
- It also doesn’t feel as though you are following your own advice to me about assuming good faith in my editing. You have accused me of calling you liar. I did no such thing. You also threatened to ban me despite also noting that “most of (my) work is excellent and appreciated”. Notagainst (talk) 03:06, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
- We're debating different questions. You keep repeating that 97% support is "broad support" and its not WP:Editorializing to say so. I keep repeating that that question is academic because no part of John's paper supports your claim that 97% of all scientists agree that its warming and that its us. I've said this now 3, 4, maybe 5 times. So maybe we should examine Cook's paper.
Please quote the text from John's study that says what you think it says.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:59, 28 July 2019 (UTC) (LATER) Nevermind... I just saw your recent comment at article talk acknowledging that it isn't 97% of all scientists, but rather the subset of actively publishing climate scientists. So we're making progress.
- We're debating different questions. You keep repeating that 97% support is "broad support" and its not WP:Editorializing to say so. I keep repeating that that question is academic because no part of John's paper supports your claim that 97% of all scientists agree that its warming and that its us. I've said this now 3, 4, maybe 5 times. So maybe we should examine Cook's paper.
- As an aside, it's really weird to me that someone who is championing the existence of a consensus is arguing that point with me, as if I wasn't one of the eds who has added the consensus to our articles, and has spent vast amounts of time to fighting disruption in the pages. In the past disruption has mostly come from the deniers, but I worry with the approach of Sept 20 and the Guardian's "climate crisis" language change that we may be on the brink if a disruptive wave from the mitigation advocacy hawks. There is a procedure to try to get Wikipedia to follow the Guardian's lead. Am I right in thinking you'd like to see us do that? If so, I'd be glad to explore the available tools for that conversation with you. I'm not promising to champion the cause myself, but the conversation would be a worthy one. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:29, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
The sentence "There is an almost unanimous (97%) consensus among published climate scientists that climate change is occurring and that human activities are the primary driver" was posted three days ago. Its a 100% accurate statement backed by a RS. When you finally get around to reading it, you describe is as 'progress' - but delete it anyway. Why? Notagainst (talk) 21:03, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
- let's talk about article content at the article talk page. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:56, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
Discretionary sanctions alert, please read
This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.
You have shown interest in living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect. Any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.
For additional information, please see the guidance on discretionary sanctions and the Arbitration Committee's decision here. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.
Template:Z33 Doug Weller talk 11:41, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
Disambiguation link notification for July 30
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Climate change in New Zealand, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Tim Wilson (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).
(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 10:17, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
Do not edit another editor's talk page post
By editing another editor's post, as you did in two successive edits beginning here, you misrepresent what the editor said. Even if you disagree strongly with what he or she said, do not change it. Akld guy (talk) 05:27, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
Apologies, changed my mind
Thanks for your renewed addition of "strong consensus". I reviewed some old discussions in various articles talk pages and realized I was giving you 'way too hard of a time for an issue that is something of a grey area, but has generally withstood the test of time elsewhere. I hope to see you at the wiki project. We might disagree, but that's what WP:dispute resolution and other input via RFC is for. Anyway, apologies for giving you a hard time as though the matter were B&W instead of grey. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 14:38, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
- That helps - I appreciate that. Notagainst (talk) 05:50, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
great tool
Greetings, when you try to say what I said back to me and tell me you're doing that to verify your understanding... that's wonderful! It makes Wikipedia fun and full of teamwork. See WP:OTHERSOPINION.
When you try to write what others said for third parties you presume to speak for others and putting words in their mouth. If you happen to be right, then things go ok. But if you screw up, things get dumb at best, or chaotic and incomprehensible at worst, and either way it can be very irritating to the person you presumed to speak for. If it goes really off the rails others are annoyed also. Please don't do that.
Thanks NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:44, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
helpful caution
Comments like this invite a civility complaint at WP:AE because IMO they violate the principles section of WP:ARBCC generally, and paragraph Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate_change#User_Conduct specifically. To be clear you were talking to someone else so I won't file a cmplaint at AE. I'm just trying to help you avoid an unfortunate trip to the drama boards. To find out if I'm blowing smoke, repost it and I'll shut up so you the other person can comment (or not). NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:50, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
Citations standards at Global_warming
I have just reverted two of your edits at Global warming, for reasons I will lay out at the Talk page there in a little while. As side issue to that please note that there are established (even if not yet fully conforming) citation standards at GW (see Talk:Global warming/Citation standards for details). These include having the full citation for each source both in template form (e.g., using {{cite journal}} or such), and in the proper area of the "Sources" section. For any of the IPCC AR reports you can find ready-to-use templates at WP:IPCC citation. Ask on the Talk page if you have any questions. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:20, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
I think removing the Darebin minutiae is correct. Also saved me the trouble of fixing the citations there! But on what you added, I will again point out that full citations should go into the "Sources" section. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:28, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
Disambiguation link notification for September 11
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Climate crisis, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Paramount (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).
(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 07:34, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
friendly suggestion
In your answer at the poll, you might consider formatting to start your NOTVOTE as
- Climate crisis
That will help others scanning the poll quickly. I almost added it for you, but when I've done that in the past with other issues and editors I've been yelled at. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:05, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
- I deliberately did not format my answer as you suggest because I agree with you that it is a Malformed survey - You expressed that more clearly than I did. Notagainst (talk) 20:27, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
- Oh, my mistake! NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:29, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Wikivoice
Hello. I'll try and give an explanation of Wikivoice. I think wikivoice is a good way of thinking about neutrality. Imagine you have some reliable news media, such as the Guardian, that says an album is amazing. In Wikipedia, we're not allowed to say "This album is amazing" (+ citation), because that would go against Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch and having a dispassionate description of everything. If we do say this, we would say it in WikiVoice: we don't attribute it to somebody else, so the reader will attribute it to us (Wikipedia's voice). We would be allowed to say that The Guardian described the album as amazing (+citation).
For the climate crisis the same can be said: we're allowed to describe why other people use this word, IN THEIR VOICE, but not by putting the arguments together ourselves. Even if all the arguments are from reliable sources. If you link up argumentation (IPCC describing climate change effects that are not nice, and making the link to crisis terminology yourself), that can count as Wikipedia:No_original_research#Synthesis_of_published_material, a difficult to grasp part of Original research.
The details here are sometimes quite difficult, so take your time to read the links I sent you. I know I made a lot of mistakes with this when I started here (fortunately, the Dutch wiki is bit more forgiving of these mistakes, good learning ground), it just takes willingless to learn and some time :). Femke Nijsse (talk) 21:10, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
- @Femke Nijsse I appreciate your good intentions here. However, now you seem to be claiming that I have breached WP:OR. That is far more specific - and helpful - than vague global claims about wikivoice.
- Perhaps you can give me a specific example of where I have claimed in the article that there IS a climate crisis, as opposed to quoting a RS which says so. Or is your concern actually about WP:OR rather than wikivoice. If so, why didn't you say so? If editors on this issue want me to understand their concerns, they need to be a great deal more specific than they have been to date - and point out actual examples in the article of what you/they are concerned about. Notagainst (talk) 05:57, 23 September 2019 (UTC)