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: Thank you, Mathglot. I think it's fixed, now. Clearly I was too tired last night to sift for the meaningful contributions amid all the BLUDGEON. I'm feeling sharper this morning, but by all means take a look. [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial#top|talk]]) 14:22, 18 February 2021 (UTC) |
: Thank you, Mathglot. I think it's fixed, now. Clearly I was too tired last night to sift for the meaningful contributions amid all the BLUDGEON. I'm feeling sharper this morning, but by all means take a look. [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial#top|talk]]) 14:22, 18 February 2021 (UTC) |
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== Discussion of Girth Summit and El C == |
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[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:El_C&diff=1008010733&oldid=1008009711 my BANEX point 2 comment], for future reference. [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial#top|talk]]) 02:48, 21 February 2021 (UTC) |
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== A couple of points == |
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Hi Newimpartial. I've brought this here from Awoma's talk because I thought that they must be getting an unreasonable number of notifications (and potentially e-mails) about a discussion they currently can't take part in. I thank you for your earlier clarification, but there were a couple of points outstanding that I feel I should address. I'm not demanding any response from you, so feel free to revert or just ignore this if you're not interested in further discussion. |
Hi Newimpartial. I've brought this here from Awoma's talk because I thought that they must be getting an unreasonable number of notifications (and potentially e-mails) about a discussion they currently can't take part in. I thank you for your earlier clarification, but there were a couple of points outstanding that I feel I should address. I'm not demanding any response from you, so feel free to revert or just ignore this if you're not interested in further discussion. |
Revision as of 14:27, 21 February 2021
ArbCom thing
You and I haven't always seen eye to eye about things, but I wanted to tell you that I was impressed by your post on the ArbCom case. It was measured, well-worded, and respectful of both parties, even when you disagreed with their actions. I really respect that. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 22:56, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
Out of curiosity
Were you under a voluntary self-TBAN or something? I was monitoring ANI on-and-off during my own voluntary self-PBAN, and I recall you saying something to the effect As this ANI has proceeded, I have continued to stay away from XfD, as I offered to do, and have also left Legacypac completely alone on all pages except ANI
. Your recent comments on the Chang AFD (not just your responses to me; your first comment as well) suggest that maybe your self-imposed exile ended slightly before you "had a clue" regarding our deletion policy: have you considered maybe reinstating it? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:35, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, it was voluntary, and I have returned to AfD (but generally not MfD) discussions since. Newimpartial (talk) 12:44, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for working on Omar Khadr
Things make a bit more sense now after the CU blocks. I have to admit that even though I have experience with the master I didn't see that one coming. Meters (talk) 05:41, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
- I see what you mean. I have made a couple of edits to the lede, taking on the two rational points in the sock's ranting, and also reorged the last section of the article so that it reads chronologically, which makes sense to me in that location. The article as a whole is still a many-headed mess, but I'd say the lede now tells the story fairly accurately and succintly. Any pruning you wanted to do, though, would probably help, especially in the messy parts of the article below the lede. Newimpartial (talk) 05:46, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
BLP warning -- Faith Goldy
It is completely unacceptable to go to the page of someone you despise and add 'notability' in the lead for something that you don't like them doing.
Read WP:BLP.
--Nanite (talk) 02:46, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
Nanite, I have, in fact, read BLP. The BLP in question mostly read as a non-notable resume, with the subject's notable acts - the ones that actually might merit a WP page - left out or buried at the end. I was adding appropriate material to the lead, as already called for in templates placed by others on the article. This has nothing to do with what I "like". Newimpartial (talk) 11:59, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
- Hey, I just want to apologise for the tone above -- I saw the inserted self-published youtube citation in the lead and figured it was just a drive-by WP:UNDUE attack. However as you say it is also mentioned in the body, so it's arguably notable. Sorry for assuming bad faith! --Nanite (talk) 23:34, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
- No worries; your tone above was a bit off, but I did understand that your heart was in the right place, as your subsequent edits to the page showed. It is just funny to me to look back on my edit you quasi-reverted, which I made before the subject was fired from The Rebel. At the time the "White Genocide" video was arguably the most notable thing she had done, but she is now clearly more famous for being fired after Charlotteville (and arguably for live-streaming the alleged vehicular homicide that took place). There was quite the edit war over my use of the (sourced) term "sympathetic", although the recent semi-protection should inhibit any more of that.
- Anyway, I did get around to removing her rowing captaincy and undergraduate scholarship from the article, at least. Perhaps ironically, it read more like a CV before she was fired ....
- As I say, no worries. Newimpartial (talk) 03:37, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
Global news
Sorry, got that confused with a fringe site. Doug Weller talk 19:46, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
Please feel free to join the discussion on the article's talk page to explain why you think this fringe viewpoint needs to be featured so prominently. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 21:23, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
- The answer is, because it isn't fringe. A very casual search on my part turns up at least half a dozen recent, scholarly sources making this point. Newimpartial (talk) 21:39, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
Suite Antique
Hi, I see you were working on a draft for Suite Antique. As I've always liked this work, I've decided to write a quick article on it and it's live now. Just thought I'd let you know in case you wanted to look at it or had any things you wanted to add. I'm planning to add a bit more description when I next get time though. Blythwood (talk) 04:17, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
Statesmen
Your reverts were entirely unnecessary and imprudent. The term "politician" is an inarguably WP:POV term to describe someone involved with politics, which is exactly why respected politicians that are still alive such as Angela Merkel and Barack Obama are described as such instead of "stateswoman" and "statesman" respectively. However, as WP:BLPSTYLE does not apply to politicians who are long gone, the term is fine insofar as the term has been used by historians to describe said politician. Basically, the term "statesman" is something that is only used to refer to deceased politicians of significant importance, not for contemporary politicians still living. I hope you will understand this and reconsider your edits.--Nevé–selbert 20:38, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
- I have replied on the Colin Powell talk page; I would also question whether you understand the policies you are citing, since there is nothing in BLPSTYLE counterindicating the use of the term "statesman" or "stateswoman" when reliable sources describe a person's role as such, and there is very good indication NOT to make up a description for a person based on an ideosyncratic point of view, such as referring to people who, in electoral democracies, have never sought electoral office as "politicians" because you read in Harry Truman that statesmen are dead people. I suggest you not magnify your mistakes using automated tools, in future...Newimpartial (talk) 22:29, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
Please read Wikipedia's talk page guidelines and the message at the top of every talk page. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:17, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
- Oh, I have, and I did again before reverting your revert. We are having a disagreement about the application of that policy, you and I: I am not acting in ignorance of it.Newimpartial (talk) 07:00, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
Monica Valentinelli BLPPROD
Let's help you with your reading comprehension:
This article is about a living person and appears to have no references. All biographies of living people must have at least one source that supports at least one statement made about the person in the article. If no reliable references [emphasis mine] are found and added within a seven-day grace period, this article may be deleted. This is an important policy to help prevent the retention of incorrect material.
Please note that adding reliable sources [emphasis mine] is all that is required to prevent the scheduled deletion of this article. For help on inserting references, see referencing for beginners or ask at the help desk. Once the article has at least one reliable source [emphasis original], you may remove this tag [emphasis mine].
This is not even slightly difficult. So don't edit war over things you're wrong about. --Calton | Talk 00:38, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
- Calton You might wanna back off the hounding with this. BLPPROD specifically states
To place a BLPPROD tag, the process requires that the article contain no sources in any form (as references, external links, etc.) which support any statements made about the person in the biography. Please note that this is a different criterion than is used for sources added after the placement of the tag.
There were sources originally (reliability is definitely debatable) and have been throughout every revision, therefor BLPPROD doesn't apply in this case. CHRISSYMAD ❯❯❯¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 00:47, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
Discretionary sanctions alert
Please carefully read this information:
The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding all edits about, and all pages related to, (a) GamerGate, (b) any gender-related dispute or controversy, (c) people associated with (a) or (b), all broadly construed, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is here.
Discretionary sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimize disruption to controversial topics. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. This message is to notify you that sanctions are authorised for the topic you are editing. Before continuing to edit this topic, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions. Template:Z33
- I'm just giving you this notice as I've seen that, while the editor you're in a dispute in has received this notice, you yourself have not. Grognard Extraordinaire Chess (talk) Ping when replying 11:38, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- The other editor is clearly afoul of 4.1.7 of the final decision. Do you really think that "chromosome supremacist" puts me afoul of 4.1.8? I have since explain that what I literally meant was more "chromosome reductionist" but I was trying to be clever. I can absolutely strikethrough if you are offended. Newimpartial (talk) 11:47, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
RE: American Renaissance and the term "White Nationalist" vs "White Supremacist"
Greetings, I figured I'd talk to you first before risking creating a new trash fire on the American Renaissance Talk Page. Thus, I'm here to ask you, what makes you think that Am Ren should be labeled "White Supremacist" instead of "White Nationalist"?
Personally, my reasoning for having it labeled as "White Nationalist" instead of "White Supremacist" is as follows (I admit, copied right from my own user page): When writing or editing articles on political figures, I am very picky (and somewhat strange, I admit) in what sources I'll cite. This is because the vast majority of reputable sources, whether they be big mainstream publications, or smaller publications, are still over saturated by their bias. Thus, I've found it best to cite directly from the political figures themselves when defining their political views. After all, who can better assess what a person's views and beliefs are than the person themselves? Outside forces can interpret and judge something all they want. But none can ever really know if their assessments are true unless directly confirmed or rejected by the thing being judged.
I don't know what your political views are. Nor do I know if they influence you when labeling it as "white supremacist". But hopefully we can be civil and come to a mutual agreement here. And not have to create more drama on the talk page if necessary.
Cheers, Da secret agent (talk) 01:47, 21 June 2018 (UTC)da_secret_agentDa secret agent (talk) 01:47, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- Hello, Da secret agent. As you might have guessed, I have been busy off-wiki.
- Basically, my answer is that the reliable sources regard "White nationalist" as a euphemism for "White supremacist", AFAICT, so WP should do likewise. And WP does not privilege what sources say about themselves over what reliable sources say about them; quite the opposite.
- Also, the only way to get the kind of terminology changed as you want for this article is to produce a new consensus, either on the article page alone or in a wider RfC or similar process. There really is no short cut. Newimpartial (talk) 19:05, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
Apology kitten
Thank you for pointing out my error and doing so calmly. That was a mistake on my part and deserves a WP:TROUT. Please accept my sincere apologies.
EvergreenFir (talk) 17:25, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
I mean... you're right...
With regard to how discussions of "transracial" people are used in discussion of transgender rights, you're completely right. I think it's important though to keep hammering home the irrelevance of that comparison to the topic at hand. It really doesn't matter how Wikipedia handles "transracial" people when we have explicit style guide instructions for how to handle transgendered people. Simonm223 (talk) 17:56, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
August 2018
Please do not attack other editors. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Calling User:Chetsford a "clueless editor" who "believes that tabletop roleplaying rules are 'designed to be used for the play of a game exactly like Monopoly or Stratego' [1]. Nobody who does not understand the text of a Wikipedia article in its plain meaning can legitimately nominate that article for deletion."
[2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], etc Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 18:17, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
- I agree that the "clueless editor" comment was unnecessary, and would be happy to strike it on each occasion if you would prefer. The remainder of my comment, however, seems to me to be perfectly germane for each occasion I included it. Newimpartial (talk) 18:20, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
- Re this edit please give Jbhunley/Essays/ANI advice a read and consider its advice. That edit very likely has changed the character of the ANI discussion from a topic ban limited in both time and scope to the possibility of a long term block or, should you continue to make attacks, an indefinite community ban. I think that would be a shame. Jbh Talk 21:59, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
Lest I forget. [[8]] [[9]] [[10]]
Also NB [11]Newimpartial (talk) 22:50, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
And this and also this. Newimpartial (talk) 01:24, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
Hi
I closed the ANI report you filed, which obviously got heated and stressful for the participants. Don't wish to repeat all that was said at the discussion but will second the advice you received to make your comments on wikipedia more concise and less personal. That way you can make your points more effectively, without inducing an angry/hurt reaction from others. Happy editing! Abecedare (talk) 18:20, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
- Understood. Thanks for putting my horse out of its misery. Newimpartial (talk) 18:30, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
The Lynching
Hi! I've re-added the G12 tag – all the existing text was added by the blocked editor subject of the CCI, and all needs to be removed for that reason. If you want to work on a replacement version of the page, I suggest you either (a) make a note of the references or (b) say so here, in which case I will blank the page and list it at WP:CP instead. Thanks, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 14:03, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
- Sure. You can blank it and I'll work on it over the weekend. Thanks! Newimpartial (talk) 14:42, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
- OK, thanks! I've removed the body text but left the quotations; obviously they are now an unduly large part of the article, but I imagine you'll balance that out. Thanks for taking this on, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:19, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I thought it would be obvious that you can't use the text that I've removed, but clearly it wasn't. Just to avoid any further misunderstanding: no part of the text that has been removed can be added back to the article; you're very welcome to create a new article at that page, but it must all be your own work, entirely in your own words (the quotes I've left can be retained, of course). I do apologise for not making this completely clear earlier. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:14, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
- Please look again at the section I have done. Every sentence is re-worked; only the quotations are retained verbatim. I will add other original text, but do I have to paraphrase the quotations right away, as well? Newimpartial (talk) 00:06, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
- Also, you reverted my edit as COPYVIO, which I take pretty seriously. What copyright do you understand to have been violated? The reviews, or something else? Newimpartial (talk) 00:08, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
- Having looked at the actual revert, I am even more confused. What you reverted was only my new lede, where most of the "COPYVIO" consists of wiki links; I don't think there is more than four words together of non-wikilinked text that corresponds to the other version. How could I write a new lede without using the same, relevant Wikilinks? That makes no sense to me. Please explain. Newimpartial (talk) 00:21, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
- Hmm, I could have expressed that better, I think. The text you added with this edit was in my opinion unduly close to the previous lead, which was substantially copied from elsewhere. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:29, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
- Please look again at the section I have done. Every sentence is re-worked; only the quotations are retained verbatim. I will add other original text, but do I have to paraphrase the quotations right away, as well? Newimpartial (talk) 00:06, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I thought it would be obvious that you can't use the text that I've removed, but clearly it wasn't. Just to avoid any further misunderstanding: no part of the text that has been removed can be added back to the article; you're very welcome to create a new article at that page, but it must all be your own work, entirely in your own words (the quotes I've left can be retained, of course). I do apologise for not making this completely clear earlier. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:14, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
- OK, thanks! I've removed the body text but left the quotations; obviously they are now an unduly large part of the article, but I imagine you'll balance that out. Thanks for taking this on, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:19, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
August 2018
Welcome to Wikipedia. I noticed that your username, "Newimpartial", may not meet Wikipedia's username policy because it could be interpeted as a misleading username. If you believe that your username does not violate our policy, please leave a note here explaining why. As an alternative, you may ask for a change of username by completing this form, or you may simply create a new account for editing. I know you've been here for a while, but I just wanted to let you know that your username could be interpreted as one violating username policy as a misleading username. No risk of UAA from me, just letting you know others might not be so generous. Kirbanzo (talk) 02:17, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
- Well, any username with "new" in it could be seen as misleading after ten years, but I don't think that should raise any questions of policy compliance so, no, I don't think it is an"misleading username" in the sense of the policy Newimpartial (talk) 09:59, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Trans man talk page comment deletion
Hello, I'm wondering specifically how my comment violated the NOTFORUM rule. I provided a brief comment in an ongoing thread, directly on-point, with a specific editing suggestion, backed up with a source. What more do I need to do, exactly, to have my comments NOT deleted? It seems to me that I am simply not allowed to participate, as editors are deleting every single one of my comments, even when I follow what they say. I see comments all over these talk pages that are forum-esque discussion without sources (for example, I saw a very long rant on the trans woman talk page, about 5 paragraphs, that was all just POV without a single source cited; I deleted it, and an editor reverted it, but did not revert my comment, which was also very brief, specifically about a point of editing, with a source). Why am I being singled out? And again, what exactly do I need to do to not have my comments deleted? Thank you very much. --45.48.238.252 (talk) 03:09, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
- Well, I don't have a magic formula for relevant comments, but here are some pointers:
- DONT use the Talk page to object to the premise of a sourced article, EVEN IF you have one or two sources yourself. If you want to propose changes to an article in that situation, propose specific changes on the basis of BALANCE instead.
- DO use Talk pages to propose specific changes to the article in draft form, not to debate the article's underlying assumptions (which is perhaps the main kind of NOTFORUM violation I run into).
- DONT append new comments to old topics that are several months stale, ESPECIALLY to launch into new tangents on those topics. It is better to add new sections in this situation.
- DO review the Talk page and its archives to see whether issues like yours have been raised before; in your particular case (people who think that science has produced one definitive definition of "biological sex" which should then also be used in place of, or to define, gender) that position has been discussed to death, on article Talk pages and in community discussions (NPOV noticeboard) and has not met with much support; it is essentially regarded as a FRINGE position. In particular,
- DONT make an argument about an article's content that is based in a personal conviction where many other editors have already made similar arguments based on the same personal conviction, or at least recognize in your framing of your intervention that you are raising one more time a point that has previously been made - the onus for quality sources is especially important in this situation.
- I really do hope this helps! Newimpartial (talk) 03:41, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for responding to me. It's much appreciated, even though we disagree on the topic at issue. I take your points, but still wonder about the appropriateness of simply deleting comments like mine outright, rather than either ignoring them or responding to them on the talk page with something like what you just wrote. Obviously it makes sense to be strict about actual pages, since that's what people are reading, the finished product. But talk pages are for, well, talking, and while I don't think it should be a total free-for-all, I don't really see why the guidelines shouldn't be pretty liberally applied, since there isn't a limit on real estate and few people (compared to Wikipedia readership) looks at them anyway. It really seems like the general guidelines cited as the basis for deleting them can easily be weaponized by editors with status in the community to censor comments they disagree with--not actually based on the egregiousness of the violation of Wikipedia guidelines, but based on a strong dislike of the view expressed. This is demonstrated by the existence of comments like the one I cited--if it were really just about the guidelines, that rant would have been deleted. The fact that my deletion of it was reverted, on the grounds that my motivation of 'making a point' was improper, is just astounding. It is of course true that I wanted to see whether this would happen, but it's also true that the comment was plainly in violation of NOTAFORUM--so regardless of my motivation, shouldn't it be deleted? Isn't it making a point to me to revert it? I've been using Wikipedia for as long as I can remember, and I always had a good opinion of it, but this experience of seeing what actually happens behind the scenes, at least on controversial topics, has left me really doubting the legitimacy of Wikipedia as a truly reliable 'neutral' source (if such a thing is even possible). Of course I recognize that you don't represent Wikipedia as a whole, but since you seem to be a regular editor, I don't know of anyone better to express this to than you. I'm new here on the editing side, but it really would not occur to me to simply delete a comment on a talk page outright just because I strongly disagree with the view expressed, unless it was egregiously in violation of the rules. To do so just smacks of censorship and political revenge, and most of all, pettiness. Do you get where I'm coming from? --45.48.238.252 (talk) 04:16, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
- Well, no, not really. I mean, editors do not delete comments on Talk pages that they disagree with - that is quite strictly frowned upon - but they do delete comments that are not useful, including POINTey edits and NOTFORUM violations. Article talk pages are in fact not intended to be a free-for-all, and they work best when the discussion is quite tightly tied to specific proposals to amend the article.
- And BTW, your tit for tat deletion of what you called a "rant" is an absolutely textbook example of POINTey behaviour, so it was procedurally correct to revert your deletion even if the content you deleted was a NOTFORUM violation. But in fact, looking back on the intervention you deleted, I don't think it is such a violation. It is long and rambly and argumentative, and it doesn't give its sources, but it is eminently source-able (without relying on FRINGE figures) and offers a clear logical structure that advances a particular discussion. This is as opposed to your original Trans-woman Talk comment, for example, which used a stale discussion, COATRACK-sryle, to talk about something that was bothering you without offering any particular contribution to the article.
- I would also point out that editors watching the articles on gender identities tend (understandably) to become irritated when people that know little or nothing about the field of gender identity arrive to edit these articles or their talk pages, just as I imagine that editors that watch biology or physics articles would be annoyed when people who know little about their subject matter arrive to edit them, or arrive on Talk to clumsily re-open topics that have been done to death in the recent past. So if you want to make a constructive contribution, don't regard Talk pages as "free-for-all" and try to come up with specific, sourced, non-FRINGE proposals that would improve the content of articles, and be prepared to discuss these proposals in a non-confrontational way, preferably with some humility. And if you care too much about a particular topic to observe the expectations of the WP environment, move to a topic you care less about and contribute there. Newimpartial (talk) 22:44, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
- Ok, I just want to address one more thing. I'm still mystified by the procedural correctness of reverting that edit. Let's assume for the sake of argument that it was a NOTAFORUM violation that I'd deleted - wouldn't reverting it, based solely on my improper motive, be an example of the reverting editor simply making a point (to me) as well? It seems very weird that a comment violating NOTAFORUM policy (again, assuming this for the sake of argument) would be allowed to stand just to privately punish an editor for his motive in deleting it. Isn't this just making the community suffer, or lowering the quality of the talk page, to sanction an individual editor? I would think that a sanction directed solely at the editor (me), while still deleting the NOTAFORUM comment simply because it's in violation of the guidelines, would make more sense. Is my understanding of this correct, that a comment in violation of the rules can be immunized against deletion if an editor has deleted it because of some improper motive? Thanks. --45.48.238.252 (talk) 22:58, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
- Please read WP:POINT, as it describes this situation almost exactly. And while you're at it, read WP:COATRACK and try to think laterally about how it might apply to talk pages (since that discussion is framed for articles).
- Wikipedia is governed largely by procedural rules - deleting or restoring a page against a consensus ruling is always wrong, even if that ruling was itself incorrect. Exceeding a revert limit is always wrong (except for COPYVIO or BLP violations) even if the article version an editor reverts to is manifestly better than the one reverted from. Without procedure, there would be chaos and the sooner you understand that, the sooner you could contribute usefully to WP. Newimpartial (talk) 23:13, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
- Ok, I just want to address one more thing. I'm still mystified by the procedural correctness of reverting that edit. Let's assume for the sake of argument that it was a NOTAFORUM violation that I'd deleted - wouldn't reverting it, based solely on my improper motive, be an example of the reverting editor simply making a point (to me) as well? It seems very weird that a comment violating NOTAFORUM policy (again, assuming this for the sake of argument) would be allowed to stand just to privately punish an editor for his motive in deleting it. Isn't this just making the community suffer, or lowering the quality of the talk page, to sanction an individual editor? I would think that a sanction directed solely at the editor (me), while still deleting the NOTAFORUM comment simply because it's in violation of the guidelines, would make more sense. Is my understanding of this correct, that a comment in violation of the rules can be immunized against deletion if an editor has deleted it because of some improper motive? Thanks. --45.48.238.252 (talk) 22:58, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for responding to me. It's much appreciated, even though we disagree on the topic at issue. I take your points, but still wonder about the appropriateness of simply deleting comments like mine outright, rather than either ignoring them or responding to them on the talk page with something like what you just wrote. Obviously it makes sense to be strict about actual pages, since that's what people are reading, the finished product. But talk pages are for, well, talking, and while I don't think it should be a total free-for-all, I don't really see why the guidelines shouldn't be pretty liberally applied, since there isn't a limit on real estate and few people (compared to Wikipedia readership) looks at them anyway. It really seems like the general guidelines cited as the basis for deleting them can easily be weaponized by editors with status in the community to censor comments they disagree with--not actually based on the egregiousness of the violation of Wikipedia guidelines, but based on a strong dislike of the view expressed. This is demonstrated by the existence of comments like the one I cited--if it were really just about the guidelines, that rant would have been deleted. The fact that my deletion of it was reverted, on the grounds that my motivation of 'making a point' was improper, is just astounding. It is of course true that I wanted to see whether this would happen, but it's also true that the comment was plainly in violation of NOTAFORUM--so regardless of my motivation, shouldn't it be deleted? Isn't it making a point to me to revert it? I've been using Wikipedia for as long as I can remember, and I always had a good opinion of it, but this experience of seeing what actually happens behind the scenes, at least on controversial topics, has left me really doubting the legitimacy of Wikipedia as a truly reliable 'neutral' source (if such a thing is even possible). Of course I recognize that you don't represent Wikipedia as a whole, but since you seem to be a regular editor, I don't know of anyone better to express this to than you. I'm new here on the editing side, but it really would not occur to me to simply delete a comment on a talk page outright just because I strongly disagree with the view expressed, unless it was egregiously in violation of the rules. To do so just smacks of censorship and political revenge, and most of all, pettiness. Do you get where I'm coming from? --45.48.238.252 (talk) 04:16, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
Geoffrey C. Grabowski
It took some time and work, but Geoffrey C. Grabowski has passed AFC and is in article space again. :) BOZ (talk) 13:01, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'm glad to see that, and some of the other orphan children back as well. You do good work. :) Newimpartial (talk) 21:48, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
Re "Hebrew Bible"
Hi. I noticed you reverted my clarification of "Hebrew Bible", citing "unsourced POV". I'm afraid I don't follow, as my edit is less of a Point of View change, and more of recognising the theological differences between and making the article more theologically neutral instead of the previous Christian-centric terminology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.244.73.64 (talk) 02:09, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- I also refer you to the opening paragraph of this well-written article: https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/tools/bible-basics/what-is-the-difference-between-the-old-testament-the-tanakh-and-the-hebrew-bible 220.244.73.64 (talk) 02:11, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- The merger of the Hebrew Bible and Tanakh articles was discussed extensively before consensus was reached. Please read those discussions and start a new Talk page discussion before essaying the change again. Newimpartial (talk) 02:14, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- By the way, I have read The Misunderstood Jew, so I am quite familiar with Levine's argument. Newimpartial (talk) 02:17, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks, I briefly skimmed over that discussion earlier and I've just had a full-read of it now, and I'm still in support of renaming the page. It looks as though no real consensus was reached to me, not to mention that very few actual references were included in this discussion in relation to WP:COMMONNAME; every reference that I've ever seen to the Tanakh has referenced exactly that, the "Tanakh" (or variations) not the "Hebrew Bible". I've expanded on this under my note here - I'd appreciate your thoughts over there :) 220.244.73.64 (talk) 02:29, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
Carl Benjamin
Your most recent revert on the Carl Benjamin article is a 3RR violation. You might want to revert your revert so as not to run afoul of WP rules.
- Please correct me if I'm wrong, LedRush, but my first revert and my fourth revert were nearly 48 hours apart. The relevant period for 3RR, as I understand it, is 24 hours. Please advise. Newimpartial (talk) 14:08, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
misgender
My argument was not that "one can only misgender people with masculine or feminine identities" it was that you can only do it if you call some one by a gender descriptor that is substantively different from the gender identity you have asked to be used. Hence why I asked how are guys descriptors different from Fae's. Fae's choice (as far as I can tell) in gender neutral, if Guys ones are also gender neutral he is not misgenderimng them, as they are still being referred to as gender neutral. he is (as I said more then once) being rude and inconsiderate, but that is not the same thing.Slatersteven (talk) 08:19, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
- And this is what I referred to as a "sophomoric analytical philosophy argument". In lay terms, you are allowing three values for gender: masculine, feminine, and "gender neutral", and you are saying that no values in the latter category are "substantively different" from one another. This argument is simply bollocks and, followed to its logical conclusion, would posit that editors using "it" for other editors who prefer "they" are not misgendering the latter.
- In real life, people whose gender identity is "genderqueer" hold a different gender identity than those whose identity is "neuter", just as those whose identity is "genderfluid" have a different gender identity from those who identify as "nonbinary" or "third gender". If you impose a linear, three-value scale on other people's gender identities you are misgendering them, which is why the contemporary turn has been to allow people to choose their own pronouns rather than dragging, say, zie out of the rhetorical attic as a "gender neutral" third person singular. Newimpartial (talk) 11:30, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
- And if it was clear which of those "they" referred to you might have a point. The problem is it is not clear, in fact it is not even (as far as I know) yet really recognized as even a gender pronoun, and when it is used it is a gender neutral, I.E. not referring to a specific gender.Slatersteven (talk) 11:35, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
- Perhaps we are having a terminological misunderstanding with respect to "misgender". From a grammatical standpoint, we might understand English as having three genders, in which case using "they" for "it" or "zie" is not "misgendering". But the current ethics around pronoun choice is not about grammatical gender - if you were to refer as a trans woman as "he", nobody would be offended on the assumption that you made a grammatical mistake. The point is social msigendering - refusal to accept a person's gender identity. And substituting one non-masculine, non-feminine pronoun for a person's chosen one is every bit as much an act of social misgendering as substituting "he" for "she". Gender identities are simply not indifferent and interchangeable in this way. Newimpartial (talk) 11:53, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
- No we are having a policy one. We are not here to enforce any social polices from off wiki, we are here (well at ANI) to enforce only Wikipedias polices.Slatersteven (talk) 12:03, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
- WP:NPA includes gender identity in the list of attributes that Wikipedians are not to attack each other over, just as it is protected in human rights law where I live. In all of the discussions I have seen on Wikipedia since the large MOS:GENDERID RfC, respect for the gender identity of editors has been understood to be covered by CIVIL and other related policies and norms. Treating other editors with respect is a WP principle, not a "social policy from off-site", and respect for gender identity is an inherent aspect of 21st-century respect. If we can see this clearly for content policies, I don't see why it is occasionally difficult for contributors to see it for conduct policies as well. Newimpartial (talk) 12:30, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
- How was this an attack on their gender ID? Unless it was deliberating mocking the fact they have asked to be regarded as gender...well what gender? It may be the case, or it may not be, it is down to you to show it was used mockingly (rather then just childishly). Maybe it cannot be clearly seen, because it is not really there (well was not meant to be applied in this way) to (paraphrase?) quote another users if you think this should be in policy make the suggestion.Slatersteven (talk) 13:15, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
- WP:NPA includes gender identity in the list of attributes that Wikipedians are not to attack each other over, just as it is protected in human rights law where I live. In all of the discussions I have seen on Wikipedia since the large MOS:GENDERID RfC, respect for the gender identity of editors has been understood to be covered by CIVIL and other related policies and norms. Treating other editors with respect is a WP principle, not a "social policy from off-site", and respect for gender identity is an inherent aspect of 21st-century respect. If we can see this clearly for content policies, I don't see why it is occasionally difficult for contributors to see it for conduct policies as well. Newimpartial (talk) 12:30, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
- No we are having a policy one. We are not here to enforce any social polices from off wiki, we are here (well at ANI) to enforce only Wikipedias polices.Slatersteven (talk) 12:03, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
- Perhaps we are having a terminological misunderstanding with respect to "misgender". From a grammatical standpoint, we might understand English as having three genders, in which case using "they" for "it" or "zie" is not "misgendering". But the current ethics around pronoun choice is not about grammatical gender - if you were to refer as a trans woman as "he", nobody would be offended on the assumption that you made a grammatical mistake. The point is social msigendering - refusal to accept a person's gender identity. And substituting one non-masculine, non-feminine pronoun for a person's chosen one is every bit as much an act of social misgendering as substituting "he" for "she". Gender identities are simply not indifferent and interchangeable in this way. Newimpartial (talk) 11:53, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
- And if it was clear which of those "they" referred to you might have a point. The problem is it is not clear, in fact it is not even (as far as I know) yet really recognized as even a gender pronoun, and when it is used it is a gender neutral, I.E. not referring to a specific gender.Slatersteven (talk) 11:35, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
To me it is obvious that, if an editor refuses to use another editor's preferred pronouns because the latter editor has asked for certain pronouns to be used, as is Guy's account of his own actions[12] then this is a clear violation of CIVIL, NPA and possibly HARASS. "Childishness of intent" is not really a defense for such behavior - we are all responsible for what we actually do, not simply for what we intend. And I do not find Guy's retrenchment and BATTLEGROUNDiness on this matter at all reassuring.
I do agree that, after the dust has settled from this and from SMcCandlish's previous contretemps, it might be best to further clarify that gender ID is not an allowable pretext to mess with other editors, any more than using the noun "bitch" or casting antisemitic aspersions. Newimpartial (talk) 14:00, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
"Formal"
Many of use do use a rather formal register of English in many discussions here, most especially at noticeboards. If you can't tell that Guy Macon was using one (note, for example, the almost total lack of contractions), then nothing I can say will be very instructive for you, since I lack any magical ability to increase your observational acuity. It was not a non sequitur, and you were not in a position to try to police him for this imaginary fault. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:50, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
- First of all, I was commenting, not policing.
- Second, while contractions are a personal choice, the Chicago Manual is clearly not intending for its recommendations about "formal" register to be applied in the context of wiki talk pages; its recommendations about formal usage are simply not relevant, regardless of individual picadillos.
- Third, the matter under discussion was whether there are contemporary authorities (not op-eds or curmudgeons) that hold that the singular "they" is incorrect grammar or usage. There simply aren't, and the CMOS preference re: formal usage is not a relevant exception.
- Finally, as much as I respect people's willingness to defend the rights of others to say things that one would not, oneself, say, I think Floq's close was correct and your own defense of Macron's choices - at odds as it was with his own self-explanation - was ill-advised if, from a certain perspective, valiant. Newimpartial (talk) 03:19, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
Interesting
This was interesting [[13]]. Checkuser blocked. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 14:44, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
Refactoring on Talk:TERF
Please don't remove comments simply because you don't agree with them. This was an improper removal. The comment contained no slurs or personal attacks, was not made by an SPA, and is focused on the state of the Wikipedia article rather than the subject itself. It doesn't violate any talk page guidelines. — Bilorv (he/him) (talk) 12:29, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
- Obviously I disagree, User:Bilorv. I actually reread the article and guidelines before reverting the comment, and the comment did not in any way relate to the article I read. I was reverting for non-compliance, not agreement or disagreement - please AGF for my stated edit summary, at least.
- Specifically concerning the talk page guidelines, the comment did not follow - in fact, it ran directly counter to - the key bullets in WP:TALK#USE, q.v.:
- Be positive
- Stay objective
- Deal with facts
- Share material
- Discuss edits
- I will not re-revert this, but I have spent a fair amount of time on the Trans-related pages, and the wasted time, energy, and likely trolling and brigading that will follow any discussion consequent to the post in question will be your responsibility, not mine. Newimpartial (talk) 12:42, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Question about the Meghan Murphy article
Hello, I seem to have encountered an issue on the Meghan Murphy artcile wherein someone has been adding POV language with no justification given in their edit messages. This has happened several times now and as a new editor I'm wondering what recourse I have besides waiting this out if they decide to violate 3RR? LittleFrozenRoses (talk) 10:47, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
- Well, the options in a case like this are limited when dealing with an IP editor. Note that is not always necessary to wait until 3RR is violated to make a report, especially when an account has a history of gaming 3RR as part of an EW.
- Aside from account-level sanctions, Admins (which I am not) have the ability to impose page protection (usually of the extended-confirmed variety), which at least prevents IPs and brand-new accounts from
unconstructive edits, at least temporarily.
- It is worth bearing in mind that others are watching the Meghan Murphy page, beside yourself, so no single editor's POV crusade is likely to do lasting damage to the page.
- Happy editing! Newimpartial (talk) 14:01, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Fefil14
I found this edit by him.[14]. WP:NONAZIS applied. Doug Weller talk 15:03, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
The Black Book of Communism
Before deleting referenced quotes, please take a look at the discussion page. --86.6.148.125 (talk) 16:01, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- Please see WP:ONUS concerning the addition of contested material, and WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY about additions to the lede. Thanks! Newimpartial (talk) 16:16, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
I did not start the edit wars, the edit war was started because of the word "somewhat", which I corrected. The quote does not need approval, as there is nothing controversial about it, it simply states a fact not picking any sides.--86.6.148.125 (talk) 16:47, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm afraid you are misreading the article history, but anyway the place for that discussion is the article talk page. Also, if you've read WP:EW you know that "they started it!" isn't a policy-compliant justification for edit warring. Thanks. Newimpartial (talk) 16:55, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Elliott Page
I had been looking at an older version of the page. My mistake. I've self-reverted my comment. Thank you for being good about it.--Tenebrae (talk) 22:59, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
Flyer22 and WanderingWanda arbitration case opened
The Arbitration Committee has accepted and opened the Flyer22 and WanderingWanda case at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Flyer22 and WanderingWanda. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Flyer22 and WanderingWanda/Evidence. Please add your evidence by December 30, which is when the evidence phase is scheduled to close. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Flyer22 and WanderingWanda/Workshop, which closes January 13, 2020. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. To opt out of future mailings please see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Flyer22 and WanderingWanda/Notification list. For the Arbitration Committee, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 09:03, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
Thank you!
Hi, sorry if this is weird I'm not too sure on what wikipedia policy is on these sorts of messages as I've not used the site in ages - just wanted to thank you for all of the work you've been doing on the Elliot Page article! Some of the blatant and wilful misunderstandings of trans people on that talk page and how they understand themselves and want to be viewed by the world makes for grim reading, so I appreciated seeing your name continuously pop up as someone who was calling that out and giving trans people's identities the respect they deserve. Thanks! -- Yrissea (talk) 02:33, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- You're welcome. And there is no reason not to leave encouraging messages. :) Newimpartial (talk) 01:41, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
Merry Christmas!
I'm wishing you a Merry Christmas, because that is what I celebrate. Feel free to take a "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" if you prefer. :) BOZ (talk) 05:13, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
Do not hound me
Do not WP:HOUND me, as you did at Critical race theory. [15] You have never edited that page before and obviously followed me there. Crossroads -talk- 17:15, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- Actually, as it happens, I was following Aquillion. Try not to make inaccurate assumptions and accusations. Newimpartial (talk) 17:31, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Your reverts at Intersex
I have been noticing you reverting my edits at Intersex can you please go into the talk page and explain more in detail why you removed the survey I added.CycoMa (talk) 17:21, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- Inclusion of that source has already been reverted by other editors, so the ONUS is on you to reach consensus for inclusion on the article's Talk page. Newimpartial (talk) 17:25, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Newbie(?) editor Leej12255
I observed that Leej12255 did not have a talk page and has never been welcomed. I have done so now. I'm not sufficiently exercised by the topic to pursue the issue but its absence does seem surprising for someone you say has been editing since 2009. It certainly came across as a wp:please don't bite the newbies but I'll take your word for it.
I still don't see it as a wp:NOTFORUM violation but it certainly does read like an unfocused blog post (no bets being taken that it won't appear verbatim on his blog). Even though the talk page has a {{Round in circles}} tag, perhaps it would be friendly to point out the RFC to him since archive searches are only as good as the words chosen for the search. Your time, your call. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:58, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for welcoming him, and if he turns out to be HERE, I will try to encourage a more constructive approach. My tolerance for people who regard Jordan Peterson as a productive colleague is perhaps thinner than it ought to be online, where "nobody knows you're a dog". Newimpartial (talk) 19:05, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
Lukan27
You might want to read this [[16]].Slatersteven (talk) 19:14, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
- Thx. As it happens, I did so just before I received your message, but redundancy is helpful at times. :) Newimpartial (talk) 19:17, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
Reverts
- Could you please explain further how my changes were "not an improvement", that seems vague. How is it not helpful to indicate where the languages are native to? --IWI (talk) 19:28, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- If you want to add geographical fields to the info boxes used for certain language articles, the appropriate course would be to open discussions on the Talk pages for those articles. I don't see an obvious reason why it would be an improvement to add a "nation-state" field, and then only add one of the countries where the language is the (or one of the) official language(s).Newimpartial (talk) 19:31, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- WP:BOLD applies here; not every edit requires discussion unless there is previous discussion. It shows where the language is actually native to (it displays as "native to"), I think you have misunderstood the purpose of this parameter. --IWI (talk) 19:40, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- No; once you have tried and been reverted, WP:ONUS applies. Also, languages aren't "native to" anywhere, since nobody gives birth to them. Newimpartial (talk) 19:49, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- Also, now that I have reviewed the parameters for the infobox, it is clear that the field in question is for states where the language is spoken as a native language, not the state of origin. Newimpartial (talk) 19:57, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- You misunderstood me. Yes, once reverted I should discuss it per WP:BRD, but you suggested I should have discussed it before making the bold edit, which is what I objected to. It was a minor edit, and I don't really think it is a big enough deal. Best, --IWI (talk) 21:34, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- Fair enough, but you asked me to explain why it is "not an improvement", so I told you. If there were a "native to" field for English, for example, it should list the UK, Ireland, the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Jamaica, Guyana, etc., and probably other countries where people are raised as native speakers of English, such as India and Nigeria. Newimpartial (talk) 21:49, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- You misunderstood me. Yes, once reverted I should discuss it per WP:BRD, but you suggested I should have discussed it before making the bold edit, which is what I objected to. It was a minor edit, and I don't really think it is a big enough deal. Best, --IWI (talk) 21:34, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- WP:BOLD applies here; not every edit requires discussion unless there is previous discussion. It shows where the language is actually native to (it displays as "native to"), I think you have misunderstood the purpose of this parameter. --IWI (talk) 19:40, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- If you want to add geographical fields to the info boxes used for certain language articles, the appropriate course would be to open discussions on the Talk pages for those articles. I don't see an obvious reason why it would be an improvement to add a "nation-state" field, and then only add one of the countries where the language is the (or one of the) official language(s).Newimpartial (talk) 19:31, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
Billy Tipton discussion
As per WP:BRD & WP:EDITCONCENSUS, please refrain from removing the birth name from the Billy Tipton article without first reaching consensus at Talk:Billy Tipton. There is already a discussion there about this very issue. Peaceray (talk) 22:11, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- You can't invoke BRD (or CONSENSUS) as support for your edit war to maintain a BOLD addition to an article. WP:ONUS specifies that the burden is placed on those adding contested material to obtain consensus before doing so. Newimpartial (talk) 22:13, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- WP:ONUS does not trump WP:EDITCONSENSUS; both are English Wikipedia Policies. I would argue in fact that EDITCONSENSUS is at the heart of the Wikipedia's editors should treat each other with respect and civility pillar.
- WP:BRD
is an explanatory supplement to the Wikipedia:Consensus and Wikipedia:Be bold pages.
It is true that it is neither a policy or a guideline, & there are alternatives. It does seem to me that changes around the birth name do require consensus. - Since the birth name has been part of the article since its creation on 2003-01-15, I think that makes a strong case for EDITCONSENSUS rather than your claim of ONUS, which dates from today, 2021-01-28.
- As noted there is an ongoing discussion. Peaceray (talk) 00:52, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- But there is nothing in EDITCONSENSUS that conflicts with the provision in ONUS that contested material be removed until consensus is reached to include it. This provision therefore applies. Newimpartial (talk) 01:07, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- I respectfully disagree. Such an interpretation would allow the removal of substantial amount of existing material from an article because one to a few bold editors choose to contest it. In fact, ONUS is heavily weighted towards consensus. Even a bold ONUS does not trump previous consensus. ONUS speaks to inclusion, which by definition refers to newer material. No, there is nothing in ONUS that implies that it overrides consensus. Peaceray (talk) 01:20, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- Can you point to a previous consensus for inclusion of the DEADNAME at Billy Tipton? I haven't seen one. Silence is not consensus. Newimpartial (talk) 01:35, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- As someone who has used consensus decades before Wikipedia came to be, I suspect that you do not have a complete understanding about what constitutes consensus. Please read the Consensus decision-making article to gain some insight.
- You state
Silence is not consensus.
On the contrary, in the Quaker & other traditions, silence does produce consensus. - Since the EDITCONSENSUS has included the birth name since the creation of the article, the onus is on you to produce reasons for excluding it. For that, I will turn the question on its head: Can you point to a previous consensus for exclusion of the birth name in any article about a historical transgendered person? Peaceray (talk) 04:13, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- I am afraid that you are the one who is misconstruing what is meant by consensus on Wikipedia - although it does not require unanimity, it is an active, verbalized consensus only that is policy-relevant. And in the absence of a prior consensus based on discussion, ONUS applies and contested material is to be excluded unless consensus is formed to include it. Newimpartial (talk) 11:56, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- I think you & I have very different interpretations of consensus on Wikipedia & ONUS. I believe that anything that is put into the article within policy & guidelines & has met EDITCONSENSUS requires consensus to remove. No ONUS required. If I understand you correctly, you believe anything in an article is fair game for removal & requires ONUS to keep it in. Both of us are experienced Wikipedians, with you having registered a few years before me & with me having considerably more edits than you. Both of us are familiar with policies & guidelines, albeit with opposing interpretations. I think that continued discussion here is likely to prove unfruitful. Therefore, it is probably best to leave the discussion here & take it to article or WikiProject talk pages where others can offer their input. Peaceray (talk) 17:21, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- That is as may be, but the second sentence of WP:EDITCONSENSUS reads,
Any edit that is not disputed or reverted by another editor can be assumed to have consensus
(emphasis added). For edits that are disputed - and in this case, disputed by multiple editors - the provision from WP:ONUS applies, specifying that contentious material be removed until consensus is reached. This doesn't seem to me like a noticeboard-worthy or complex case. Newimpartial (talk) 17:31, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- That is as may be, but the second sentence of WP:EDITCONSENSUS reads,
- I think you & I have very different interpretations of consensus on Wikipedia & ONUS. I believe that anything that is put into the article within policy & guidelines & has met EDITCONSENSUS requires consensus to remove. No ONUS required. If I understand you correctly, you believe anything in an article is fair game for removal & requires ONUS to keep it in. Both of us are experienced Wikipedians, with you having registered a few years before me & with me having considerably more edits than you. Both of us are familiar with policies & guidelines, albeit with opposing interpretations. I think that continued discussion here is likely to prove unfruitful. Therefore, it is probably best to leave the discussion here & take it to article or WikiProject talk pages where others can offer their input. Peaceray (talk) 17:21, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- I am afraid that you are the one who is misconstruing what is meant by consensus on Wikipedia - although it does not require unanimity, it is an active, verbalized consensus only that is policy-relevant. And in the absence of a prior consensus based on discussion, ONUS applies and contested material is to be excluded unless consensus is formed to include it. Newimpartial (talk) 11:56, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- Can you point to a previous consensus for inclusion of the DEADNAME at Billy Tipton? I haven't seen one. Silence is not consensus. Newimpartial (talk) 01:35, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- I respectfully disagree. Such an interpretation would allow the removal of substantial amount of existing material from an article because one to a few bold editors choose to contest it. In fact, ONUS is heavily weighted towards consensus. Even a bold ONUS does not trump previous consensus. ONUS speaks to inclusion, which by definition refers to newer material. No, there is nothing in ONUS that implies that it overrides consensus. Peaceray (talk) 01:20, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- But there is nothing in EDITCONSENSUS that conflicts with the provision in ONUS that contested material be removed until consensus is reached to include it. This provision therefore applies. Newimpartial (talk) 01:07, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
MOS:JOBTITLES applications.
Yes. I've noticed that you're reverting my application of MOS:JOBTITLES at the intros of bios of Canadian governors general. FWIW, I've grown weary of these disputes. GoodDay (talk) 00:22, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
PS: Why did you revert only some of them? They go back to 1867. GoodDay (talk) 00:28, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- I was proceeding forwards from the one I stumbled upon; I will now go backwards. The first few I found were simply wrong per MOS:JOBTITLES bullet 3, and I have modified a couple of others for consistency. Newimpartial (talk) 00:30, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
You edit roleplaying games articles?
I'd love to cooperate with you on one, as a sign of no hard feelings. Your choice of which? Or I can choose if you prefer. --GRuban (talk) 23:07, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- You can choose anything that isn't related to Dungeons & Dragons :) Newimpartial (talk) 23:38, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- Cool! I went to WP:RPG, saw they have a list of requested articles, and am going to do an initial source search for each, and put the results at User:GRuban/RPG cooperation. You can help, or just wait for me to gather the info, and we can pick one. So far, I have almost certainly found enough reliable sources for Cthulhu for President, but it's only tangentially going to be an article about the roleplaying game. --GRuban (talk) 18:05, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
- By the way, I see no problem reaching out to authors so long as you don't get to the point of COI. And I support the line-based approach, grouping information about a few books together, compared to a narrow single book-based approach. So in the case of GURPS:STEAMPUNK there would be at least, what?, four printed volumes plus additional e-publications? Mind you, 2000-01 was close to a nadir of independent, RS RPG reviews, but I will see what I can find. Newimpartial (talk) 20:21, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
- I would also be happy to chip in at the margins of Cthulhu for President, since I found it quite amusing back in the day. Newimpartial (talk) 20:22, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
- Related: User_talk:BOZ#Review_sources? I don't suppose you have access to the relevant issue of Alarms and Excursions?
- Sadly, no. And as I say, my access to non-SJG sources for that period is quite poor. Newimpartial (talk) 01:22, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- One user who might have it is Guinness323? BOZ (talk) 17:27, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Sadly, no. And as I say, my access to non-SJG sources for that period is quite poor. Newimpartial (talk) 01:22, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Related: User_talk:BOZ#Review_sources? I don't suppose you have access to the relevant issue of Alarms and Excursions?
- Cool! I went to WP:RPG, saw they have a list of requested articles, and am going to do an initial source search for each, and put the results at User:GRuban/RPG cooperation. You can help, or just wait for me to gather the info, and we can pick one. So far, I have almost certainly found enough reliable sources for Cthulhu for President, but it's only tangentially going to be an article about the roleplaying game. --GRuban (talk) 18:05, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Sent mail to Guinness323. William Stoddard wrote back, and is interested in helping, but doesn't seem to have any print sources other than what is on the web. I started to gather those into User talk:Newimpartial/GURPS Steampunk - I'm guessing it's all right to use the user page you earlier created for this purpose? --GRuban (talk) 19:19, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yes; that is perfect. I have made a couple of (unsigned) comments in reply, but feel free to use that space however you like in this process. Treat it as though it were a Draft page, if you like, or move the content elsewhere once content there is. Newimpartial (talk) 19:28, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- We have a lot of sources, and can create an interesting GURPS Steampunk article but I'm worried that it won't meet Wikipedia:Notability. We've got one Origins Award, but other than that it's mostly primary sources, and a bunch of self-published blogs. https://www.rpg-collecting.com/gurps/ says it won 3 awards, but that was news to Bill Stoddard, so is likely in error. I also got in touch with Phil Masters, who also didn't know any published reviews (though he was able to release an image for our article about him, so not a total loss). It may well be deleted at WP:AFD. If that doesn't bother you, we can start writing it anyway, and just take our chances. --GRuban (talk) 13:39, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
@BOZ: There's a chance! I found this site: https://annarchive.com/ which seems to have full scans of many, many old gaming magazines! We won't be able to link to it, as I doubt they have the actual rights to host them, but we can read them. The https://annarchive.com/dragon.html Dragon index page seems to be broken, but the links exist, for example https://www.annarchive.com/files/Drmg126.pdf. I don't think it's searchable, so it'll have to be searched the old fashioned way, by looking roughly around the time the thing was released and lots of clicking and reading. Pinging BOZ, who makes more articles about old games in a week than most people do in a lifetime, so this site might be most useful to him. --GRuban (talk)
- Thanks for the ping! :) Yep, that is definitely an excellent resource which I have used over and over again, that and the many more scans on archive.org. :) BOZ (talk) 14:51, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
Cthulhu for President
- However, I've started Draft:Cthulhu for President. That has sources like The Guardian and L'Obs, so should survive AFD. --GRuban (talk) 13:39, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, please go ahead with Cthulhu for President. I was disappointed not to find any GURPS Steampunk references in Designers & Dragons Vol. 2, and I would also rather not go without a second unimpeachable RS besides the award, so I'll keep looking. Newimpartial (talk) 14:19, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- I went on a roll and put in everything I could think of. Please improve how you can. I'll also send an email to Chaosium and/or Cthulhu For America to see if they would release an image of one of their posters or stickers for the main article image, or if they have any suggested revisions. (Honestly, 75% chance they won't even write back - but that's not 100%, and it would be nice if they do!) When you're happy, and when we're done waiting for Chaosium, we can inflict it on an unexpecting main space! Mwuahahahah.... --GRuban (talk) 17:46, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Chaosium (Michael O'Brien (game designer) in fact!) wrote back; not going to release any bumper sticker image. But did ask for correction of the Cthulhu rights (they believe Cthulhu the character is public domain, but the status of the Mythos in general is confusing; I'm just going to remove that rights text from the draft), and confirmed that Chaosium has nothing to do with either cthulhuforamerica.com or cthulhu.org (that was before his time, but not as far as he could figure out). --16:13, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- I went on a roll and put in everything I could think of. Please improve how you can. I'll also send an email to Chaosium and/or Cthulhu For America to see if they would release an image of one of their posters or stickers for the main article image, or if they have any suggested revisions. (Honestly, 75% chance they won't even write back - but that's not 100%, and it would be nice if they do!) When you're happy, and when we're done waiting for Chaosium, we can inflict it on an unexpecting main space! Mwuahahahah.... --GRuban (talk) 17:46, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, please go ahead with Cthulhu for President. I was disappointed not to find any GURPS Steampunk references in Designers & Dragons Vol. 2, and I would also rather not go without a second unimpeachable RS besides the award, so I'll keep looking. Newimpartial (talk) 14:19, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- However, I've started Draft:Cthulhu for President. That has sources like The Guardian and L'Obs, so should survive AFD. --GRuban (talk) 13:39, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
Now "Samir Al'Azrad" (of CthulhuForAmerica.com) wrote back! (I think I know his real name, but if he wants to be Samir Al'Azrad, so mote it be.) He confirmed he's not connected with Chaosium, but pointed out that Cthulhu for President predated the Chaosium accessories bundle, by pointing to this image of Steven King wearing a Cthulhu for President t-shirt in 1983: https://www.tor.com/2018/08/10/forbidden-planet-40th-birthday-mark-hamill-neil-gaiman-stephen-king-pics/ (about halfway down the page). Unfortunately I don't think we can cite that as a source. He also confirmed that they didn't get much press for the 2020 campaign. He did write an associated book Your Stars are Wrong in 2018, but it didn't get any real reviews. However! He agreed to release two Cthulhu political images! See the bottom of https://cthulhuforamerica.com/press/
- It would be good if we could find a source for Cthulhu for President before the Chaosium accessories bundle
- Do we want to add more political slogans? "Give fear a chance"; “Equality through insanity”; “Legalize human sacrifice”; “Keep climate changing”; "I want you to get a head and consume it for nourishment.” "Answer the call"; "Are you ready for a real change?" "Make R'lyeh great again" - I think there are others we can find out there if we look at the archived web sites we write about.
- We should pick an image for the main article image; I think I like the left hand one on https://cthulhuforamerica.com/press/, but the other one isn't terrible. Or we could make one, after all, there should be plenty of Richard Nixon federal government images in the public domain, and the Cthulhu character is public domain (not immediately obvious, but Chaosium says it is, and they should know), so we can grab the head from one and paste it on the the other, and make something like https://www.pinterest.com/pin/24418022951030606/... but that would take work. Which would you prefer?
- When we do, we could remove the current Cthulhu sloshing through R'lyeh image, or keep it, what do you think?
I'll wait for your feedback, but other than that, I think we're ready to go live! --GRuban (talk) 14:34, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- You might also want to consult User:Sciencefish as I believe he has a connection to Chaosium. BOZ (talk) 14:53, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- And just to give a couple of quick, knee-jerk responses, I prefer the existing left-hand image of over a newly created one, but I'm fine to have multiple images. Also, I do favor the inclusion of multiple slogans; my favorites include "Give fear a chance" and "Keep climate changing", though I have a soft spot for "Are you ready for a real change?" as well.
- I was looking for some pre-Chaosium connection between Cthulhu for President and Campus Crusade for Cthulhu: the latter is pretty clearly the older of the two, but I haven't found any RS documenting a relationship, or even any good anecdotes. Perhaps others could take a look? Newimpartial (talk) 15:04, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- Aww, we don't have a Campus Crusade for Cthulhu article. Maybe we can make one later; though that's even farther from role-playing games. I'd be very happy if you were to add in a section of cited (and funny!) campaign slogans to Draft:Cthulhu for President, that would make it a real collaboration. I'll put up the image. I tried to find an appropriate article infobox for it, but couldn't - you'd think there'd be one for a perennial candidate, but there isn't. Even Vermin Supreme actually has something like a real office! There is Template:Infobox U.S. federal election campaign, but it doesn't have a space for a candidate image, just a logo, which we don't have. --GRuban (talk) 21:34, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- I'll push it live for now, but if you can add a slogans section, it'll be great! --GRuban (talk) 15:27, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- I took a look at the RS for slogans on the weekend and was not inspired, but I will take another look if nobody else shows up to do better. :) Newimpartial (talk) 15:30, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- I'll push it live for now, but if you can add a slogans section, it'll be great! --GRuban (talk) 15:27, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Aww, we don't have a Campus Crusade for Cthulhu article. Maybe we can make one later; though that's even farther from role-playing games. I'd be very happy if you were to add in a section of cited (and funny!) campaign slogans to Draft:Cthulhu for President, that would make it a real collaboration. I'll put up the image. I tried to find an appropriate article infobox for it, but couldn't - you'd think there'd be one for a perennial candidate, but there isn't. Even Vermin Supreme actually has something like a real office! There is Template:Infobox U.S. federal election campaign, but it doesn't have a space for a candidate image, just a logo, which we don't have. --GRuban (talk) 21:34, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
Want to help with a WP:DYK blurb? I think this article is thoroughly DYK worthy, especially with the image, but the blurb is troubling me. I was thinking of Did you know "... that cosmic horror Cthulhu has run for President of the United States in every election since 1996?" but there isn't a specific source that says that. The Wall Street Journal says the campaign has gone on for multiple election cycles, and we have a source for every election cycle since the Chaosium campaign materials in 1996, but not a single source that says "every Presidential election". Do you think that's all right, or do you have a better idea? --GRuban (talk) 17:59, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- I'm sorry that I didn't actually see this last post, so this isn't timely. I think "every election" is fine. I'm afraid I have had other things on my mind this month, so I haven't been able to help with the new article, but I'm glad to see you got it off the ground. Fun! Newimpartial (talk) 14:21, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Do not mess with other people's AfD comments
I've reverted your deletion here. Surely you know better than to do this. Mangoe (talk) 03:37, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks, Mangoe. @Newimpartial: What was your reason for reverting my vote? Xxanthippe (talk) 03:42, 11 February 2021 (UTC).
- I am so sorry. I have no idea how that happened. You have my sincere apologies. Newimpartial (talk) 12:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- These things can happen. Apology accepted. Best wishes. Xxanthippe (talk) 21:42, 11 February 2021 (UTC).
- I am so sorry. I have no idea how that happened. You have my sincere apologies. Newimpartial (talk) 12:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks, Mangoe. @Newimpartial: What was your reason for reverting my vote? Xxanthippe (talk) 03:42, 11 February 2021 (UTC).
WTW collapse
Hi, I don't think you really wanted to collapse numerous votes at WTW in this edit at WT:WTW, did you? I haven't reverted, but doubtless someone else will soon, if you don't first (which would be preferable). Mathglot (talk) 07:46, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you, Mathglot. I think it's fixed, now. Clearly I was too tired last night to sift for the meaningful contributions amid all the BLUDGEON. I'm feeling sharper this morning, but by all means take a look. Newimpartial (talk) 14:22, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Discussion of Girth Summit and El C
Hi Newimpartial. I've brought this here from Awoma's talk because I thought that they must be getting an unreasonable number of notifications (and potentially e-mails) about a discussion they currently can't take part in. I thank you for your earlier clarification, but there were a couple of points outstanding that I feel I should address. I'm not demanding any response from you, so feel free to revert or just ignore this if you're not interested in further discussion.
- I'm still not entirely happy with your saying that we were tag teaming, even by the Wiktionary rather than Wikipedia definition. 'Two or more editors acting alternately to accomplish some task' could be construed in lots of different ways. The entire admin corps could probably be encompassed in that definition, in that we act together to accomplish the task of preventing disruption of this process. I don't think that's the meaning that you intended though, and it's the 'to accomplish some task' bit that I have difficulty with - you must think that we have been acting improperly, or you wouldn't have raised it, but you haven't explained what task you think it is that we are trying to accomplish. You go on to say that you are talking about actions and consequences, rather than intentions, and so perhaps you didn't mean to imply anything by quoting the second part of that definition. I want to be clear that I have no intention of doing anything other than preventing disruption and encouraging civil discourse in all my involvement in that topic area. If you're happy to accept that there is no other motivation, I'm happy to accept that you think we have made honest mistakes.
- I don't understand why you think I would be INVOLVED in that topic area. I don't consider myself so. In my mind, the closest I've come to doing anything that would render me involved is in the attempts I made last year to mediate the interactions between yourself and Lilipo about the Fred Sergeant page. However, I made my best effort to remain neutral in those discussions, and I believe that they would all have been covered by the exception
Warnings, calm and reasonable discussion and explanation of those warnings, advice about community norms, and suggestions on possible wordings and approaches do not make an administrator involved
from WP:INVOLVED. You made mention of my redactions and choices not to redact - you use the plural there, but the only one I can bring to mind is the on I linked to earlier, where I removed on comment from Awoma which I felt crossed a line because it applied a label to other editors. As I explained at the time, I wasn't exactly happy with the comment which preceded it, but I don't go around redacting everything and anything that doesn't conform with WP:TPG, or which could be read as an WP:ASPERSION. One has to draw a line somewhere. I don't accept that my choice not to redact one, then partially redact the other, and allow a modified version of it to remain in place, was improper. If there are other choices about redaction that you'd like to draw my attention to, I'd be willing to consider them.
I've re-read through all of the discussions that I, and that Awoma, posted at AN, and I've reflected on them. I don't believe there's anywhere that I have displayed bias. WP:ADMINACCT only covers administrative actions, which as I've said I cannot remember ever taking in that topic area; nevertheless, in the spirit of that policy, I'll be happy to consider anything you think I've said or done which you deem to be unfair, or that would make me involved from an administrative perspective. Best GirthSummit (blether) 11:15, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
- Addendum: it's occurred to me on retrospect that I may have just invited you to breach your Iban, which would be unfair of me, both to you and to them. That was imprudent of me, and I regret doing it - my apologies. If there's anything you want to say to me that does not pertain to the other party, I would be open to listening to it. If not, perhaps we should just leave this where it is. GirthSummit (blether) 11:48, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
- Hi, Girth Summit. Don't worry; I have no intention of breaching my IBAN here. Please let me know if you think I do, and I will revert. I understand that you feel that there was no
task
that you and El C were jointlyaccomplishing
, but from this end of the stick it simply looks differently, and the diff I provided previously (which was from your Talk page originally) where El C tried to "pass the baton" about my IBAN seems key in this respect. If El C takes it upon himself to "finish" other disciplinary discussions that you had "started" then that is the "alternation" that I was talking about - and as I say, it concerned actions, not intentions. But I understand that you see it differently, and in any case no collusion is implied. - As far as fairness is concerned, you have previously chosen to remove comments based on Awoma's application of a label and not to remove other equivalent comments by others (I used the plural based on the multiple opportunities, not multiple actions). El C has now enacted a one-week ban on Awoma based on allusions to sexism placed against him, but when I posted much more direct examples of namecalling directed against me to El C's Talk page he did nothing, and three months later enacted a 1-way IBAN against me. (I trust that this statement, which points at no-one except El C, is not a BANEX violation but as I say, I will remove this reply if you think it is.)
- I have recently looked at Talk page comments you made on Graham Linehan and other gender and sexuality-related Talk pages, and what I see is you trying painfully to be evenhanded and failing to do so. That is of course also how I read our Talk page discussion about the boundaries of my IBAN. I do not dispute that
you have to draw a line somewhere
, but where you and El C each actually have drawn the line (separately, and not in exactly the same place, but in mutually-reinforcing ways) has had the impact of substantially shutting down "one side" over a series of Talk page discussions - and this includes your rather meticulous instructions about where I am not allowed to participate. You said as you did so that you were trying to be symmetrical, and I said then that the impact of your decisions was not. Of course Awoma and I are not really on the "same side" since our individual perspectives are quite different (as I have pointed out before), but where both El C's and your interventions have landed has been asymmetrical in its impact, while other editors beyond we two have pointed out to you that the behaviours you have been attempting to police have been spread much more generously among all "sides". Newimpartial (talk) 13:07, 21 February 2021 (UTC)- Newimpartial, thanks for that response, and for recognising that I have been trying to be even-handed. Whether I have succeeded is, I suppose, a matter of perspective, and I am sure there have been times when other fair-minded people could have disagreed with conclusions I have come to. All I can say is that I will continue trying my best to be fair, and I remain open to being told in a civil manner (as you have done) when people disagree with me. GirthSummit (blether) 13:38, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
- Hi, Girth Summit. Don't worry; I have no intention of breaching my IBAN here. Please let me know if you think I do, and I will revert. I understand that you feel that there was no