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==Bethlehem== |
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== Your [[WP:Good articles|GA]] nomination of [[Israeli occupation of the West Bank]] == |
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Before a revert-war is started in violation of [[WP:3RR|special revert conditions of Bethlehem]]. I suggest we discuss what is the best way to describe the area. شكرًا لك [[User:Sallicio|'''It's me... Sallicio!''']][[User talk:Sallicio|<sup><math>\color{Red} \oplus</math></sup>]] 17:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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The article [[Israeli occupation of the West Bank]] you nominated as a [[Wikipedia:Good article nominations|good article]] has failed [[File:Symbol oppose vote.svg|20px|link=]]; see [[Talk:Israeli occupation of the West Bank]] for reasons why [[Talk:Israeli occupation of the West Bank/GA2{{!}}the nomination]] failed. If or when these points have been taken care of, you may apply for a new nomination of the article. <!-- Template:GANotice result=fail --> <!-- Template:GANotice --> <small>Message delivered by [[User:ChristieBot|ChristieBot]], on behalf of [[User:A455bcd9|A455bcd9]]</small> -- [[User:A455bcd9|A455bcd9]] ([[User talk:A455bcd9|talk]]) 15:21, 5 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Barnstar == |
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{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;" |
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|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:top;" | {{#ifeq:alt|alt|[[File:Current Events Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]|[[Image:Current Events Barnstar.png|100px]]}} |
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|rowspan="2" | |
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|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: bottom; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Current Events Barnstar''' |
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|- |
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|style="vertical-align: top; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Thank you for all your work around Israel and Palestine. [[User:Jayen466|Andreas]] <small>[[User_Talk:Jayen466|<span style="color: #FFBF00;">JN</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Jayen466|466]]</small> 14:48, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:Thanks Andreas, I appreciate you. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17">nableezy</span>]]''' - 14:49, 6 December 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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== Reading material == |
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Is there any material you'd recommend on Israeli sexual violence against Palestinians? I found some like [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26718999/ Sexual torture of Palestinian men by Israeli authorities], [https://www.berghahnjournals.com/view/journals/conflict-and-society/9/1/arcs090105.xml Beyond Male Israeli Soldiers, Palestinian Women, Rape, and War], [https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230711-un-expert-accuses-israel-of-sexually-abusing-palestine-prisoners/ UN expert accuses Israel of sexually abusing Palestine prisoners], [https://www.timesofisrael.com/four-idf-soldiers-held-over-alleged-abuse-of-palestinian-detainee/ Four IDF soldiers held over alleged abuse of Palestinian detainee], [https://www.timesofisrael.com/ending-censorship-idf-admits-officer-jailed-in-2017-raped-a-palestinian-woman/ IDF removes gag on 2016 conviction of officer for raping Palestinian woman] etc. Anything else that you know of? '''[[User:Vice regent|VR]]''' <sub>[[User talk:Vice regent|talk]]</sub> 04:06, 10 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:Ill see what I can find. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' - 17:30, 10 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:: <pagestalker>[[User:Vice regent]]: How long back do you want to go? Eg from [[Nirim]], you have [https://archive.is/KJcvt this] from 1949; for similar incidents during 1948; search Morris, 2004, "Birth of.." for "rape". |
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::For "aftermath"; see eg |
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::*{{cite book|last=Nazzal|first=Nafez|year=1978|title=The Palestinian Exodus from Galilee 1948|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=li1IAAAAMAAJ|publisher=The Institute for Palestine Studies|location=Beirut|isbn=9780887281280}} |
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::Cheers, [[User:Huldra|Huldra]] ([[User talk:Huldra|talk]]) 22:35, 13 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::{{re|Huldra}} thanks! What do you mean by "aftermath"? Also I'm interested in both the 1949-1967 and post-1967 period. Finally, I'm not just looking for rapes (strictly defined) but any form of sexual violence. '''[[User:Vice regent|VR]]''' <sub>[[User talk:Vice regent|talk]]</sub> 18:14, 14 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::{{re|Vice regent}} by "aftermath" I mean "life after rape"; Nazzal interviewed Palestinian refugees in Lebanon in the early 1970s, including about Palestinian women who survived rape. (AFAIK: most did't) I always though the importance of rape in 1948 beeing underestimated; even if the number wasn't large, the fear of it literally emptied villages. And it was a taboo subject; the Palestinians euphemistically said they left (their village) out of fear for the "honor of their girls" (there is an Arab expression for it; ''bint'' something?). (I haven't checked, but I wonder that wasn't a reason for leaving [[Ein Hod]], noted in [https://www.amazon.com/Nakba-Palestine-Claims-Cultures-History/dp/0231135793 this] book?) |
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::::About sexual violence in general; [[Tom Segev]] had an article in [[Haaretz]] a few years ago about how the Israelis castrated (in their public hospitals(!)) Arab Palestinian men who they accused of wrongdoing; I tried to find the article, but couldn't. (Any pagestalker to the rescue?), Interestingly, The Israeli rape-law was recently changed: if a Jewish man rapes a Jewish women, it is "only" rape. If a Palestinian man does the same; it is both rape ''and'' terrorism, cheers, [[User:Huldra|Huldra]] ([[User talk:Huldra|talk]]) 23:42, 15 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::[https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-06-13/ty-article/.premium/the-hidden-terror-attacks-of-the-haganah-israels-pre-state-militia/0000017f-e69b-dea7-adff-f7fbb12e0000 This]? But its about the haganah.'''[[User:Vice regent|VR]]''' <sub>[[User talk:Vice regent|talk]]</sub> 00:21, 16 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::[[User:Vice regent]]; hmm; I don't think so; I seem to recall that the article was by [[Tom Segev]], cheers, [[User:Huldra|Huldra]] ([[User talk:Huldra|talk]]) 22:57, 16 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:@[[User:Vice regent|Vice regent]], Write all the information in the [[Israeli war crimes]] article. [[User:Parham wiki|Parham wiki]] ([[User talk:Parham wiki|talk]]) 12:37, 16 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::That's tricky because to call something a war crime requires not just a historian, but an international legal expert to make that claim. A journalist can say "Israel reportedly sexually humiliated Palestinian prisoners", but you need an expert in international law to say if that was a war crime. '''[[User:Vice regent|VR]]''' <sub>[[User talk:Vice regent|talk]]</sub> 16:04, 16 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Proposal for [[2023 Israel–Hamas war]] == |
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Hi, |
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For some reason, [[Talk:2023 Israel–Hamas war|the talk page for the 2023 Israel-Hamas war article]] is itself protected, and I couldn't find anywhere else to bring up a concern with the article. You seem like an active contributor to the article, so I'm coming here to you. |
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My question was regarding how the article has a section "destruction of cultural heritage" as well as a "war crimes" section. From what I understand of international law, the destruction of cultural heritage is itself a war crime ([https://www.eppgroup.eu/newsroom/destruction-of-cultural-heritage-is-a-war-crime]), so shouldn't "destruction of cultural heritage" be a subsection of the war crimes section, rather than a section on its own? In addition, that would mean that the article of [[War crimes in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war]] should also have a section on cultural destruction (it's given partial coverage in the "indiscriminate attacks" subsection of the article). What do you think? |
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Thanks. [[User:JasonMacker|JasonMacker]] ([[User talk:JasonMacker|talk]]) 07:27, 10 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:It needs sources specifically saying that it is a war crime, if those sources exist then yes it should be moved. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' - 17:27, 10 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::Just passing by, but @[[User:JasonMacker|JasonMacker]], I believe that destruction of cultural heritage is a war crime when it's intentional, not when it's inadvertent ("Ooops, the bomb missed the real target") or unfortunate (e.g., the opposing military decided to use a cultural heritage site for military purposes). The opening line of the source you link talks about "strategic and targeted acts of destruction", which suggests that other acts of destruction are treated differently. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 22:46, 10 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Removal of Due content from Bethlehem == |
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Hello Nableezy I saw you reverted me on Bethlehem, therefore removing very important information, some if it has been in the lead for years (for example, biblical mentions). In your Edit Summary you said: ''Rv unexplained removal of occupation and undue weight in lead for additions'' I added the removed sentences and image. |
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{{hat|extended comments}} |
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[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bethlehem&diff=1189379262&oldid=1189200859] This is the revert in question. |
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Please explain why you removed the following which I did not add: <s>as well as the city where he was anointed as the third monarch of the [[Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy)|United Kingdom of Israel]], and also states that it was built up as a fortified city by [[Rehoboam]], the first monarch of the [[Kingdom of Judah]]</s>. In the [[New Testament]], the <s>[[Gospel of Matthew]] and the [[Gospel of Luke]] identify the city</s> |
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I will note that the above is very due. Bethlehem is world renown for its biblical history and its place in the Abrahamic traditions. Can you please explain why you removed due information that is vital in understanding the role of Bethlehem in the Israelite history as well as for Christianity which has made the city important for billions of people over history. Also if not mistaken this is not a recent addition, certainly not by me and it is due. |
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. <s>In</s><ins>During the</ins> 1967<ins> [[Six Day War]]</ins>, <s>the city</s><ins>Bethlehem</ins> was <s>captured</s><ins>occupied</ins> by <s>[[Israel]] during the [[Six-Day War|Third Arab–Israeli War]]</s><ins>Israel</ins>. Since the [[Oslo Accords]]<s>, which comprise a series of agreements</s> |
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Here I agree that it merits discussion and is not strange however this is not a recent addition by me. Also there is merit to state that there are shared agreements between Israelis and Palestinians that dictate the state of Bethlehem. |
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<s>following persecution by PA officals and muslim officals</s>.<s></s> |
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Please explain the removal of this info. Following your removal it appears Christians only suffer from Israeli settlements, whilst sources provided clearly state that Christians suffer from Muslim and PA persecution which is significant. It is important to maintain both parts in order to accurately reflect the reasoning of dwindling of the Christian population which was in the 1960s about 80%+ and now less then 12%. Bethlehem is the birthplace of Jesus Christ, a very important figure in Christianity and also for Muslims. Bethlehem's prominence arises from its role for Christians and therefore it is WP:DUE to explain the reasoning behind their dwindling. However, if you wish to remove the reasoning then remove the entire section for NPOV. I think it's due to keep, but it has to be comprehensive and reflect both. |
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When reverting Makeandtoss I should have restored partial self rv and put the Israeli occupation under international law section in modern history paragraph. |
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You also removed a sentence in the body which is backed by sources and is also not in lead unlike your edit summary it is not in the lead: |
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<s>David is considered to have originated from Bethlehem.</s> |
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Why is this controversial? It is well known and merits mention in the body? |
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[[File:Bethlehem-hamasrally.JPG|right|thumb|A [[Hamas]] rally in Bethlehem]] |
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You also removed the image to the right, which is not in the body and is an image of a Hamas rally in Bethlehem. Why is this problematic? Perhaps you'd wish to add a picture of a Fatah rally in Bethlehem as well if its problematic in your eyes to show only Hamas. But again it's not in your edit summary and I did not add this picture and from a short look in history it was in the body for several months (I did not look far back so maybe it was there for years). |
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Overall I saw you removed a lot of very due important information, also information which is not present in the lead was removed (David originating from Bethlehem and the image of the Hamas rally in Bethlehem). Can you please explain the removals? |
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{{hab}} |
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[[User:Homerethegreat|Homerethegreat]] ([[User talk:Homerethegreat|talk]]) 14:51, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:We have article talk pages for a reason. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' - 14:56, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== RFC reviews == |
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Howdy, Nableezy. Where would one go, to get the RFC reviewed at Trump's 2024 campaign? IMHO, it's not a neutrally worded. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 17:24, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:Nowhere for now IMO, if it proceeds and then is closed then WP:AN. Better would be getting people on the talk page to agree to reformulating it in to a neutrally worded RFC prompt. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' - 17:42, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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==Puzzled== |
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{{hat|take it to the article talk}} |
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I was puzzled by this response[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war&diff=prev&oldid=1189555195] to my remark that a paragraph in the article was too long and detailed. Are you confusing me with another editor who put the article in a bad condition in the past? I have never edited a passage in that article to say that there had been a mass surrender. Or as you put it, "pushed the lie hundreds of Hamas militants have surrendered to Israel ¯ Assuming the article "pushed a lie" in the past, what has that got to do with me? [[User:Coretheapple|Coretheapple]] ([[User talk:Coretheapple|talk]]) 16:19, 12 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:No, it was a statement on the general state of the article, not an assignment of blame. When things get added and they are emphatically pushing one specific POV it isnt a problem, when that is corrected with reliable sources that show that POV to have been effectively propaganda that was inserted as though it were objective fact, then it is overly detailed and too long. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' - 16:23, 12 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::OK, but that is not what you said. You said, "Guess it was the right amount of weight when it pushed the lie hundreds of Hamas militants have surrendered to Israel ¯\_(ツ)_/¯" That was in response to my suggestion that the paragraph be written in summary style, not that anything specific be added or not added. [[User:Coretheapple|Coretheapple]] ([[User talk:Coretheapple|talk]]) 16:27, 12 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Yes, it was in response to the suggestion that the inclusion of material that showed the previously included material to have been bogus is what has made things overly detailed and too long. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' - 16:37, 12 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::This is the totality of what you were responding to: "Perhaps what is being conveyed here can be described succinctly rather than reeling off what one media outlet after another said on this subject. The paragraph in question is overlong and disproportionate weight." By "conveyed here" I meant the entire "surrender" issue, not one aspect or another aspect of that issue. The article is very long and detailed and excessively so in my view. Sometimes things get ungainly during editing and we try to boil it down. However, if you feel the article should go into that detail on that point, if you feel it is not excessive, then simply say so. I am not familiar with what the article said in the past on that subject. I just don't have that frame of reference. [[User:Coretheapple|Coretheapple]] ([[User talk:Coretheapple|talk]]) 16:49, 12 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::Sure, like I said it wasn’t meant as casting blame on you, just a reflection on how the editing goes here. Burst of edits adding very POV material, later edits to fix that POV make things too bloated. But fair enough, you meant the overall topic and not just the addition on how the initial reports were bs. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' - 18:01, 12 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:{{ping|Coretheapple}} Please don't clog other editors' talk pages with long missives on article content concerns; take it to the article talk page where all editors can weigh in. [[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] ([[User talk:Makeandtoss|talk]]) 10:08, 17 December 2023 (UTC) |
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{{hab}} |
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== Filibustering == |
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:The best way to describe the West Bank is the way sources do, which is [[Israeli occupation of the West Bank|Israeli occupied]]. This is the super majority view on that. Also, multiple people reverting your attempt to force through non neutral material is not a revert war. You should not be attempting to force in a contested change. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' - 19:55, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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As you can already tell, filibustering behavior is impeding editing on some articles, would you know what is the best way to deal with this issue? [[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] ([[User talk:Makeandtoss|talk]]) 10:10, 17 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::Hi Nableezy. I'm afraid smth went wrong after your last edit, the text disappears after "and as of 2021". Thanks, [[User:Arminden|Arminden]] ([[User talk:Arminden|talk]]) 21:09, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Fixed now i think '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' - 21:09, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== genocide == |
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:You are constantly going to come across people who have gotten very good at getting in the way. They don’t have sources they don’t even read the sources you provide, but they know that just claiming such and such policy supports them is an effective way to slow things down. You just need to have faith in the wider community and bring the dispute to a noticeboard or an RFC. Honestly I think this topic is headed to arbcom again, between the filibustering and the email campaigns idk what else can really happen here. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' - 16:01, 17 December 2023 (UTC) |
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If it is determined that Israel and Hamas committed genocide, what will the articles [[Palestinian genocide accusation]] and [[Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel]] be renamed to? The first one is not only about the war in Gaza. [[User:Parham wiki|Parham wiki]] ([[User talk:Parham wiki|talk]]) 16:47, 20 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== 1RR violation == |
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:That isnt something I would decide, as Wikipedia has yet to anoint me to my rightful place of arbiter of all content. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' - 16:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== The great man == |
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You violated 1RR with [[Special:MobileDiff/1190225554|first revert]] and [[Special:MobileDiff/1190389252|second revert]]. Please self revert or I will report you. [[User:Dovidroth|Dovidroth]] ([[User talk:Dovidroth|talk]]) 17:03, 17 December 2023 (UTC) |
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[https://www.normanfinkelstein.com/genocide-in-gaza-why-isnt-the-world-doing-anything-to-stop-israel-norman-finkelstein/ speaking about his family], in case you missed it. Just 1 hr 15 minutes into it, the earlier part being of course quite familiar (even if his redeployment of the 'mowing the lawn' metaphor for 7 October was new to me). [[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] ([[User talk:Nishidani|talk]]) 21:50, 20 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:Self reverted. {{rpa}} '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' - 17:39, 17 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:: Knock that off. If you have evidence of off-wiki coordination email arbcom. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 17:44, 17 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Already did but I don’t know how that was a personal attack. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' - 17:50, 17 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::There's no {{t|remove unnecessarily personalized comment about an editor pointing out a mild 1rr violation and aspersion about a third party relating to off-wiki canvassing}}. I figured you'd get the drift. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 17:53, 17 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::Definitely not an aspersion but a provable fact. Be happy to email you the proof if you like, hell I don’t think it would violate the privacy policy to paste the emails here, complete with requests for specific edits along with pre made edit summaries that are carried out shortly after the email, for that matter. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' - 17:57, 17 December 2023 (UTC) |
Revision as of 21:52, 20 May 2024
Bethlehem
Before a revert-war is started in violation of special revert conditions of Bethlehem. I suggest we discuss what is the best way to describe the area. شكرًا لك It's me... Sallicio! 17:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- The best way to describe the West Bank is the way sources do, which is Israeli occupied. This is the super majority view on that. Also, multiple people reverting your attempt to force through non neutral material is not a revert war. You should not be attempting to force in a contested change. nableezy - 19:55, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
genocide
If it is determined that Israel and Hamas committed genocide, what will the articles Palestinian genocide accusation and Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel be renamed to? The first one is not only about the war in Gaza. Parham wiki (talk) 16:47, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- That isnt something I would decide, as Wikipedia has yet to anoint me to my rightful place of arbiter of all content. nableezy - 16:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
The great man
speaking about his family, in case you missed it. Just 1 hr 15 minutes into it, the earlier part being of course quite familiar (even if his redeployment of the 'mowing the lawn' metaphor for 7 October was new to me). Nishidani (talk) 21:50, 20 May 2024 (UTC)