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A minor point perhaps, but I am not convinced that the term Celtic nations is restricted to a group of activists. That there are Celtic nations is well documented. It is not the preserve of the Celtic League and/or Celtic Congress. Those I consider to be neither Celtic activists, nor with any particular axe to grind include:
Scottish Government,Welsh Assembly Government, Government of Ireland, Isle of Man Government, The Sunday Times, Robert Salisbury (The Times), Alan Finlayson (The Grauniad), Michael White (The Grauniad), Irish Times, Jenny Randerson AM, George Lyon MSP, Andrew George MP, Alun Ffred Jones AM, historian John Davies (see A History of Wales, Penguin, 1994, "Welsh Origins", p. 54), National Museum Wales, National Library of Wales, Andrew Davies AM, Frank Hennessy, David Joy, Steve Brace and John Allen head of athletics at Scottish Athletics, Athletics Association for Wales and Northern Ireland Athletics Federation respectively, BBC History, John Kelly (BBC News magazine), Lawrie Sanchez, Martin Shipman (Western Mail) and Karen Price (Western Mail). Additionally, reference is made to the Celtic countries (used as a synonym): RTE, Rhodri Morgan AM, Byron Davies, (Chief Executive of Cardiff Council), Irish Government. John T. Koch notes in Celtic culture: a historical encyclopedia, Volumes 1-5, p365, “As a conventional term 'the Celtic countries' means Ireland (Eire), Scotland, (Alba), Wales (Cymru), Brittany (Breizh), the Isle of Man (Ellan Vannin) and Cornwall (Kernow). … Galicia is often considered a Celtic country, particularly with regard to its music.”. Cheers, Daicaregos (talk) 10:52, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for links. Not sure I'll get through them all, but a quick glance at a couple just now kind of proves me half right - quite a few seem to be used in respect of Scotland, Wales and [Northern] Ireland only (ie only internal to the UK or <ahem> "these" islands, and not including Cornwall) and often in a sporting context, while others are from people who might be said to have an angle on the issue. Nothing wrong with the latter of course, and perhaps my description "activists" was a bit limiting as well, but those were the two points I was making really. N-HH talk/edits 19:07, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
- Cornwall hasn't much of a presence on the world stage. Consequently, Cornwall does not tend to crop up that often. If one were to specifically discuss Nigeria and Uganda, referring to them as 'the African countries' would not mean there are no others. Anyway, now I understand you objection a little better … none of these relate to sports and none have an 'angle' AFAICT: Celtic cookbook, Songs of the 6 Celtic nations (both published in New York), US Army (Germany), North Dakota State Government, Official Tourism Website of the Commonwealth of Virginia, VisitPA.com (Pensylvania), Oklahoma State Senate, Celtic Heritage Society (Mississippi), Winchester News, Ky, Texas Music Office, City of Chicago, Ben Lobb MP (on behalf of the Minister of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages), etc., etc., etc. Do these help? Daicaregos (talk) 01:07, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- Well yeah, but talking about a nation or country as being “African” is clearly understood – or at least clearly understandable – and regularly used terminology with a pretty consistent meaning. It’s clear which (sovereign) nations/countries fall within the term, and which don’t. “Celtic” nations/countries is far more subjective and means different things in different contexts. And some of the latest examples are quite clearly of the “Celtic heritage” type, or on tourist sites, which is kind of the point I’m making about angles. Plus, one is talking very specifically from the outset about Galicia – which is not even one of the Celtic nations even under the Celtic League definition, I believe. I’m not disputing it is used in the broader sense you mean it, ie to include various sub-national entities and regions, in several places – including in some mainstream and/or academic contexts - but I just don't think that's the most usual use of it overall. Similar to perhaps how we disagreed previously on what most people would usually mean by "nation". Anyways, the fact that the reference to Celtic nations on the Cornwall page links to the page explaining that definition makes inverted commas redundant, as accepted. I'm happy to agree to disagree on the underlying point, if that's where we're still at. N-HH talk/edits 15:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- Not to mention most serious scholars of European archaeology, prehistory, language and culture doubt the existence of the "Celts" anyway. Not trolling, just making the point that there is a large element of antiquarian fantasy in the modern conception of Celtica. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 09:19, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- Ah. I really don't want to start a lengthy debate on this topic on my talk page! But will pass brief comment myself, since it is my page. I think I'd sit somewhere in the middle on that. Yes, much of it is rooted in romantic/revivalist origin myths of the sort that afflict all peoples, and many - not sure how fair "most" is - serious scholars are sceptical in some way. However, at the same time, there are areas of northwest Europe, including Britain - and even England, with or without Cornwall - that are noticeably more what we would now call "Celtic" than others, eg in terms of language use, general culture and place names etc, to a lesser of greater degree. Last word. N-HH talk/edits 15:21, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed. I always wonder when I'm in Wales, Scotland, Cornwall, etc, to what extent other much more recent forces have shaped that "differentness" which we English notice so strongly. Of course, our ancient linguistic, genetic and cultural roots do influence us, but so do a lot of other things. I would think of things like non-Conformism in Wales, Catholicism and non-Conformism in Scotland and non-Conformism in Cornwall as being particularly important, as well as socialist struggle and (in Wales particularly) deliberate marginalisation and oppression based on language. Not to mention the last two hundred years of extreme industrialisation and a marked tendancy by the British ruling class (and I include Welsh and Scottish aristocratic families in that) to focus particularly acute oppressive exploitation of working people at those "on the margins" in the West and North. The further away from London, the less trouble you could cause. The Victorian upper-class world-view started in Pall Mall and ended in Ealing. :-) So much racial inter-mingling has taken place over subsequent centuries that I am very sceptical that much "pure Celtic" remains in most of Britain. Most that we see now was re-invented during the last 150 years. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 18:12, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- Oi, I said last word! Anyway, I agree with that all pretty much. Indeed, my reaction to a lot of this stuff is rooted in an essentially leftist worldview - and the perhaps rather banal idea that most people have a lot more in common in other ways than in terms of what divides them "nationally" or "ethnically" - rather than any sense that English, British or any other nationalisms are an improvement. And of course, a lot of nationalisms gloss over divides within them, in terms of culture as well as economics or whatever - for example doesn't a working class lowland urban Scot have more in common with their equivalent from Newcastle than either do with a highland Laird; a Scottish crofter have more in common with a Lancashire smallholder than an Edinburgh lawyer? Although equally I'm not making the simplistic claim that all nationalism is bad, or equally detrimental - it is of course in large part about power structures and relationships and all that stuff as well, as well as how inclusive any nationalism is. In fact, in the utterly hypothetical scenario of my having to choose sides between Welsh nationalism say and British, where they do conflict, I'd choose the former. At least they have a viable proper socialist party there.
- Indeed. I always wonder when I'm in Wales, Scotland, Cornwall, etc, to what extent other much more recent forces have shaped that "differentness" which we English notice so strongly. Of course, our ancient linguistic, genetic and cultural roots do influence us, but so do a lot of other things. I would think of things like non-Conformism in Wales, Catholicism and non-Conformism in Scotland and non-Conformism in Cornwall as being particularly important, as well as socialist struggle and (in Wales particularly) deliberate marginalisation and oppression based on language. Not to mention the last two hundred years of extreme industrialisation and a marked tendancy by the British ruling class (and I include Welsh and Scottish aristocratic families in that) to focus particularly acute oppressive exploitation of working people at those "on the margins" in the West and North. The further away from London, the less trouble you could cause. The Victorian upper-class world-view started in Pall Mall and ended in Ealing. :-) So much racial inter-mingling has taken place over subsequent centuries that I am very sceptical that much "pure Celtic" remains in most of Britain. Most that we see now was re-invented during the last 150 years. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 18:12, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- Ah. I really don't want to start a lengthy debate on this topic on my talk page! But will pass brief comment myself, since it is my page. I think I'd sit somewhere in the middle on that. Yes, much of it is rooted in romantic/revivalist origin myths of the sort that afflict all peoples, and many - not sure how fair "most" is - serious scholars are sceptical in some way. However, at the same time, there are areas of northwest Europe, including Britain - and even England, with or without Cornwall - that are noticeably more what we would now call "Celtic" than others, eg in terms of language use, general culture and place names etc, to a lesser of greater degree. Last word. N-HH talk/edits 15:21, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- Not to mention most serious scholars of European archaeology, prehistory, language and culture doubt the existence of the "Celts" anyway. Not trolling, just making the point that there is a large element of antiquarian fantasy in the modern conception of Celtica. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 09:19, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- Well yeah, but talking about a nation or country as being “African” is clearly understood – or at least clearly understandable – and regularly used terminology with a pretty consistent meaning. It’s clear which (sovereign) nations/countries fall within the term, and which don’t. “Celtic” nations/countries is far more subjective and means different things in different contexts. And some of the latest examples are quite clearly of the “Celtic heritage” type, or on tourist sites, which is kind of the point I’m making about angles. Plus, one is talking very specifically from the outset about Galicia – which is not even one of the Celtic nations even under the Celtic League definition, I believe. I’m not disputing it is used in the broader sense you mean it, ie to include various sub-national entities and regions, in several places – including in some mainstream and/or academic contexts - but I just don't think that's the most usual use of it overall. Similar to perhaps how we disagreed previously on what most people would usually mean by "nation". Anyways, the fact that the reference to Celtic nations on the Cornwall page links to the page explaining that definition makes inverted commas redundant, as accepted. I'm happy to agree to disagree on the underlying point, if that's where we're still at. N-HH talk/edits 15:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- Cornwall hasn't much of a presence on the world stage. Consequently, Cornwall does not tend to crop up that often. If one were to specifically discuss Nigeria and Uganda, referring to them as 'the African countries' would not mean there are no others. Anyway, now I understand you objection a little better … none of these relate to sports and none have an 'angle' AFAICT: Celtic cookbook, Songs of the 6 Celtic nations (both published in New York), US Army (Germany), North Dakota State Government, Official Tourism Website of the Commonwealth of Virginia, VisitPA.com (Pensylvania), Oklahoma State Senate, Celtic Heritage Society (Mississippi), Winchester News, Ky, Texas Music Office, City of Chicago, Ben Lobb MP (on behalf of the Minister of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages), etc., etc., etc. Do these help? Daicaregos (talk) 01:07, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- Anyway, that's all for my blog, were I to have one. As for how it all affects this place, I think the problem is that the more nationalistically minded editors tend to be more assertive, and articles inevitably tend to highlight that perspective rather than reflecting the attitudes of most people, which is probably slightly more indifferent to all these things - that being a good thing, in my view. I think Wikipedia is at its most boring when it's used as a platform for people to tell the world how great their favourite nation, band or consumer product is. I'm not necessarily suggesting that's a problem all the time, but it can be seen all over this place quite often. N-HH talk/edits 16:40, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for your post on my talk page
It's good to hear from peopel who can work out what's going on.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- No worries. WP can and should accommodate people with all sorts of views - including, possibly even those who might have tweeted just the other day in these exact words: "Islam is not a religion. It's a genocidal death cult founded by a hate mongering genocidal murderer" ... "The Qur'an is a handbook of terror, nothing more. Mohammed was a genocidal murderer of Jews" - but why should other people here have to put up with someone who engages in blatant intimidation and harassment and attempted outing of perfectly decent and reasonable editors on their website, with all its quasi-fascist and militaristic trappings? How would talk page interactions with that person work exactly, knowing he held that threat over anyone who disagreed with him, mentor or no mentor? And then of course he ended up posting that vile, doctored rant. There are plenty of people who fight genuine anti-semitism, here and elsewhere, without resorting to that sort of crap. Anyway, here's my bid to out "Mr Appletree". N-HH talk/edits 17:45, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Repeated links proposal
This is a proposal to change the Repeated links section of the MOS. Please edit &/or comment on the talk page as you see fit.
Feel free to move the proposal/discussion straight to the Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (linking) if you wish. I just thought we might establish some sort of consensus first, out of the heat and fury over there. --Michael C. Price talk 10:12, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Pavement (band), an article you have worked on, has been nominated for GA. I have reviewed the article and feel it does not meet the GA criteria at this time, and the work needed to bring it to GA status would be quite considerable; however, I have put it on hold for seven days to allow people an opportunity to improve the article. Even if the article is not improved to GA level, any improvement is a good thing, and your involvement is encouraged and would be appreciated. SilkTork *YES! 16:00, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
London Wikimedia Fundraiser
Good evening! This is a friendly message from Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry, inviting you to the London Wikimedia Fundraising party on 19th December 2010, in approximately one week. This party is being held at an artistic London venue with room for approximately 300 people, and is being funded by Ed Saperia, a non-Wikipedian who has a reputation for holding exclusive events all over London. This year, he wants to help Wikipedia, and is subsidising a charity event for us. We're keen to get as many Wikimedians coming as possible, and we already have approximately 200 guests, including members of the press, and some mystery guests! More details can be found at http://ten.wikipedia.org/wiki/London - expect an Eigenharp, a mulled wine hot tub, a free hog roast, a haybale amphitheatre and more. If you're interested in coming - and we'd love to have you - please go to the ten.wikipedia page and follow the link to the Facebook event. Signing up on Facebook will add you to the party guestlist. Entry fee is a heavily subsidised £5 and entry is restricted to over 18s. It promises to be a 10th birthday party to remember! If you have any questions, please email me at chasemewiki at gmail.com.
Hope we'll see you there, (and apologies for the talk page spam) - Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 23:32, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
The Contribution Team cordially invites you to Imperial College London
All Hail The Muffin Nor does it taste nice... 20:13, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
Motion regarding Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/West Bank - Judea and Samaria
By motion of the Arbitration Committee voted on at requests for amendment,
The editing restrictions placed on Nishidani (talk · contribs) in the West Bank - Judea and Samaria case are lifted effective at the passage of this motion. Nishidani is reminded that articles in the area of conflict, which is identical to the area of conflict as defined by the Palestine-Israel articles case, remain the subject of discretionary sanctions; should he edit within this topic area, those discretionary sanctions continue to apply.
For the Arbitration Committee, Hersfold (t/a/c) 17:34, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
A quick post
... to apologise for the "vomit" comment. But can I say that I felt wound-up, and was very stressed about the posts on my talk page. Let's see if calm waters can prevail from now. Tony (talk) 06:02, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
- How seemingly pleasant and remorseful of you. However, when discussing this point on someone else's page, you still feel free to describe me, behind my back, as a "stalker" who is barred from your talk page (despite, I think, having made a total of three utterly harmless comments there in 12 months). As for "stalking" your edits, my crime seems to have been to have recently made a tiny, partial adjustment to one of your thousands of link-related removals (which, yes, I do look in on very occasionally - with good reason) and to have intervened in a dispute where you saw fit to imply other editors - one of whom now seems to have left the project immediately following your comments - were "ignorant" over some trivial hyphen issue; plus, my temerity in occasionally commenting over a longer period at the wp:link talk page. I have left some of your more genuinely crappy edits alone - like this one, now remedied by someone else, which wrecked the formatting in the first sentence of a good article - because I can't be bothered to be on the end of your all-too-frequent hissy fits. Your apology appears about as genuine as any apology that comes from someone who says nothing until they are repeatedly called on their rudeness by others over a period of days; or from someone who also might have cause - by your own admission, even if you don't seem to quite understand exactly why - to fear ArbCom scrutiny of their wider behaviour.
- Forgive me if any of that seemed a little rude, but this is my talk page, and I don't think I can quite cope with the hypocrisy and faux remorse. Btw, I would be very happy if from now on you could offer me the same courtesy of not posting here that you demand from me on your page. Thanks. N-HH talk/edits 12:12, 22 August 2011 (UTC)