John A Rizzo
Please excuse my intrusion into your space. I am inviting you to comment on John A. Rizzo here [1]. Thank you. Glennconti (talk) 23:07, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
Ghouta chemical attacks and Volunteer Marek
Before addressing content issues about Ghouta chemical attack, I have to give a bit of history. I was reading the lead to Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation on May 25 and saw a statement I thought deserved a Citation Needed tag. diff @Volunteer Marek: believed that the intro section didn't need citations if the same statement was later sourced in the text. I showed him that was wrong User_talk:Volunteer_Marek#Lead_section_citations and he thankfully added citations that improved the article. Great.
However, immediately after this episode, Volunteer Marek decided he needed to patrol the Ghouta chemical attack article, which I have recently made lots of edits to and that he'd never edited before. He then accused another editor of edit warring (Talk:Ghouta_chemical_attack#Edit_warring_on_a_1RR_restricted_article), which was not upheld (Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Erlbaeko), and things went downhill from there (Talk:Ghouta_chemical_attack#False_flag_motivation_-_actual_content_of_edit_war). On to content! Mnnlaxer (talk) 20:58, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
1RR
It sure looks like you've broken the one-revert rule with your latest on Ghouta chemical attack, as you reverted VM less than 24 hours ago. Care to self-revert? -Kudzu1 (talk) 15:04, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- No. The principles involved are more important to resolve than any potential violation of 1RR. I could have waited a couple hours to avoid it. But that wouldn't be right. I would rather take @Volunteer Marek:'s suggestion and go to WP:AE rather than a technical 1RR complaint. And I prefer for someone else to do the filing. I would love to see someone actually argue against the points I have made on the talk page. Mnnlaxer (talk) 15:20, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- And for anyone interested in my total work on the article, rather than just focus on some recent disputes. Here is the version I found (April 9) and here is the version before Volunteer Marek showed up (May 20). Also, I collaborated quite well with Erlbaeko during that period. There are several talk page discussions that I positively contributed to. Mnnlaxer (talk) 16:04, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- OK, I reported this to WP:3RR, as was suggested by Kudz1 and you. However, this subject/page is covered by discretionary sanctions from community, not Arbcom, and therefore can not be reported to WP:AE. This is the reason it has been rejected on WP:AE recently. My very best wishes (talk) 19:40, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- Ok. I must admit the reporting of violations confuses me, but I just read that WP:Arbitration is for conduct disputes, not content. I suppose WP:3RR is the same. My point was to engage in an actual debate over the substance of the disagreement, the content of the article, not a technical issue like 3RR. I see now that WP:Mediation is where this should be. Since no one seems to actually want to go there, I'll have to request that after I respond to the 3RR. But if anyone has a better idea, please suggest it. Mnnlaxer (talk) 19:52, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- OK, I reported this to WP:3RR, as was suggested by Kudz1 and you. However, this subject/page is covered by discretionary sanctions from community, not Arbcom, and therefore can not be reported to WP:AE. This is the reason it has been rejected on WP:AE recently. My very best wishes (talk) 19:40, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- And for anyone interested in my total work on the article, rather than just focus on some recent disputes. Here is the version I found (April 9) and here is the version before Volunteer Marek showed up (May 20). Also, I collaborated quite well with Erlbaeko during that period. There are several talk page discussions that I positively contributed to. Mnnlaxer (talk) 16:04, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
User:Mnnlaxer reported by User:My very best wishes (Result: Declined)
Declined Yes, a 1RR violation did occur. However, at this point, a block would be purely punitive in nature, and blocks should not be punitive. There is no ongoing disruption to stop. Further, a block at this time would not serve to "encourage a more ... congenial editing style" or otherwise benefit the encyclopedia. —Darkwind (talk) 20:10, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Formal mediation has been requested
The Mediation Committee has received a request for formal mediation of the dispute relating to "Ghouta chemical attack". As an editor concerned in this dispute, you are invited to participate in the mediation. Mediation is a voluntary process which resolves a dispute over article content by facilitation, consensus-building, and compromise among the involved editors. After reviewing the request page, the formal mediation policy, and the guide to formal mediation, please indicate in the "party agreement" section whether you agree to participate. Because requests must be responded to by the Mediation Committee within seven days, please respond to the request by 13 June 2015.
Discussion relating to the mediation request is welcome at the case talk page. Thank you.
Message delivered by MediationBot (talk) on behalf of the Mediation Committee. 23:16, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Reply
Yes, I can not speak for other contributors. So, please consider my edit as expression of my own opinion on the matter how this page should be fixed. Once again, if you and other contributors can achieve new consensus during mediation, this new consensus will held a lot more weight than your own (or my) opinion about this. I consider your latest comments on this page only as your own opinion, not consensus. Sorry. My very best wishes (talk) 17:04, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- Fine, but you'll notice I am not reverting the deletion. Rather, I am trying to gain consensus. Your re-reverting was described in the edit comment as "this is majority opinion right now". Which you now admit is not true. Thus, you should self-revert. Mnnlaxer (talk) 17:12, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- Two things. First, if you want to achieve consensus (as you tell) and collaborate with others, you must follow the rules. I follow the rules even if I do not like them. The fact that you intentionally (as you said) did not follow the rules and did not self-revert, even after being reported at 3RRNB, undermines your ability to negotiate with others. Second, I still believe this is a majority opinion based on the current editing history of this page [2]. My very best wishes (talk) 17:50, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oh, come on. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Mnnlaxer reported by User:My very best wishes hasn't been closed, so no rule breaking has been established. As you yourself suggest: "Maybe this is a hint that I should not report anything on administrative noticeboards?" Mnnlaxer (talk) 18:31, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- I see. Since admins did not do anything about your obvious and open violation, you now can declare that you were right, if not by the letter, but by the spirit. Good luck! My very best wishes (talk) 20:02, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- In addition, this your edit is a violation of WP:CANVASS and also undermines your effort (if any) to negotiate. My very best wishes (talk) 17:56, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'll let VQuakr let me know if he thinks that is canvassing. Plus, I am not in a position to negotiate a Mediation. That is what it is for, to bring in an outside negotiator. My efforts at getting people to self-revert a contentious and unhelpful deletion are not negotiations. They are merely a request to establish a better baseline for the article going into the mediation. Of course, people are free to ignore my requests. However, as throughout this tedious process, it would be nice if people could provide cogent and detailed arguments for their positions. For instance, why did you re-revert the edit in question here? Your edit summary is false and you haven't engaged with the discussion on the talk page. Talk:Ghouta chemical attack#Mediation Mnnlaxer (talk) 18:31, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- I talked about your words in the diff "I also am trying to get someone else to restore" [revert] the edit made by someone who disagree with you. My very best wishes (talk) 19:48, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'll let VQuakr let me know if he thinks that is canvassing. Plus, I am not in a position to negotiate a Mediation. That is what it is for, to bring in an outside negotiator. My efforts at getting people to self-revert a contentious and unhelpful deletion are not negotiations. They are merely a request to establish a better baseline for the article going into the mediation. Of course, people are free to ignore my requests. However, as throughout this tedious process, it would be nice if people could provide cogent and detailed arguments for their positions. For instance, why did you re-revert the edit in question here? Your edit summary is false and you haven't engaged with the discussion on the talk page. Talk:Ghouta chemical attack#Mediation Mnnlaxer (talk) 18:31, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
@My very best wishes: If you have little experience editing the article, little desire to participate in discussing it, and little justification for supporting a large deletion, then you shouldn't have re-reverted to it. Mnnlaxer (talk) 14:54, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- In average, I do just a few edits per page, and this is one of them. I do edits that improve content to the best of my knowledge on the subject. This revert is one of such edits. I also sometimes watch and follow editing by some contributors around here (not you) - simply because I know them from the previous experience on-wiki and they look to me as interesting participants. My very best wishes (talk) 15:21, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- So how does that edit improve the article? For just one example, your edit removed two good sources from the article, numbers 2 and 4 at Talk:Ghouta chemical attack#Mediation. BTW, I appreciate your willingness to at least respond to me, although engagement with the issues such as answering my latest question here would be the best situation. Mnnlaxer (talk) 15:47, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- We have a lot of sources and a very long page. What exactly should be removed to improve readability and focus on important issues? This is a matter of personal judgement and expertise. People have a trouble writing articles together even if they are all experts and good friends. In real life this is usually solved by giving one of the people (usually first author) the leading role to write the article, while others mostly make comments, write small pieces and do secondary editing. My very best wishes (talk) 16:37, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- So how does that edit improve the article? For just one example, your edit removed two good sources from the article, numbers 2 and 4 at Talk:Ghouta chemical attack#Mediation. BTW, I appreciate your willingness to at least respond to me, although engagement with the issues such as answering my latest question here would be the best situation. Mnnlaxer (talk) 15:47, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
Request for mediation accepted
The request for formal mediation of the dispute concerning Ghouta chemical attack, in which you were listed as a party, has been accepted by the Mediation Committee. The case will be assigned to an active mediator within two weeks, and mediation proceedings should begin shortly thereafter. Proceedings will begin at the case information page, Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Ghouta chemical attack, so please add this to your watchlist. Formal mediation is governed by the Mediation Committee and its Policy. The Policy, and especially the first two sections of the "Mediation" section, should be read if you have never participated in formal mediation. For a short guide to accepted cases, see the "Accepted requests" section of the Guide to formal mediation. You may also want to familiarise yourself with the internal Procedures of the Committee.
As mediation proceedings begin, be aware that formal mediation can only be successful if every participant approaches discussion in a professional and civil way, and is completely prepared to compromise. Please contact the Committee if anything is unclear.
For the Mediation Committee, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:51, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
(Delivered by MediationBot, on behalf of the Mediation Committee.)