Anthonyhcole (talk | contribs) Changed my mind. |
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:The issue came up recently [[User_talk:MastCell/Archive_42#Rangoon|here]]. I haven't followed Rangoon11 since the block, so can't really comment on whether there have been additional issues. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]''' <sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 21:25, 16 September 2013 (UTC) |
:The issue came up recently [[User_talk:MastCell/Archive_42#Rangoon|here]]. I haven't followed Rangoon11 since the block, so can't really comment on whether there have been additional issues. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]''' <sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 21:25, 16 September 2013 (UTC) |
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::Ok, I seem to have come up in an edit war against his socks so I was just curious, thanks.--[[User: Yaksar|Yaksar]] [[User talk: Yaksar|(let's chat)]] 21:47, 16 September 2013 (UTC) |
::Ok, I seem to have come up in an edit war against his socks so I was just curious, thanks.--[[User: Yaksar|Yaksar]] [[User talk: Yaksar|(let's chat)]] 21:47, 16 September 2013 (UTC) |
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== controversy about vitamin c == |
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I am unable to edit on pages related to the topic of my concern, as a result of discretionary sanctions, so as a last ditch effort, I thought I'd appeal to you, an active editor on the orthomolecular medicine topic, and present my case. What you decide to do with it is your business. These are my concerns: |
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The fact that some people dropped out of the study means that it is not very helpful to make conclusions about them in the study (e.g. - you state that the stabilization rate in the Monti study was 50% - this includes the people who dropped out. However, if we include the people who actually completed the study, 7/9, or 77% had stabilization - higher than the 60% average of treatment with the traditional drug alone). Also, your statement about the nature of the stabilization (purporting 0% regression) can be challenged by figure 3 of the trial: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0029794.g003/originalimage, showing that there was regression, but regression lower than the required standards of RECIST criteria for it to be reported as such. Partial response criteria is at least 30%: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_Evaluation_Criteria_in_Solid_Tumors#Response_Criteria, so your statement about ascorbate lowering efficacy seems unwarranted, as gemcitabine/erlotinib do not qualify as drugs evoking partial response, according to the study you gave. |
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There are some other interesting observations from the study that are noteworthy: "Overall, the safety data do not reveal adverse events other than what might be expected for progression of pancreatic cancer and/or treatment with gemcitabine and erlotinib. Deaths of three patients who died before completing the study were attributable to underlying and rapidly advancing disease, as affirmed by the Data Safety and Monitoring Board. [...] primary tumor size ... specifically decreased in the three subjects who received the highest ascorbic acid dose. [...] It is noted that RECIST 1.0 criteria for stable disease are inclusive of a 19% increase in target lesions [24]. Other studies of gemcitabine efficacy in pancreatic cancer that categorize disease as stable do not provide details concerning target lesion increases under 20%, meaning that subjects with target lesion size increases up to 19% are still considered stable disease. Therefore, the importance of our finding of target size decrease in 8 of 9 subjects may be underestimated. [...] In particular, unlike many cancer therapies, ascorbate does not appear to have toxicity on rapidly dividing normal cells such as those in intestine cells, hair follicle cells, and bone marrow. Because of the absence of apparent tissue toxicity, effects of ascorbic acid treatment on human tumors might be expected to be more gradual, and as a corollary to require longer treatment. This possibility is consistent with observations from case reports of patients who received intravenous ascorbic acid as treatment for several types of cancers. [...] Given the possibility that longer ascorbic acid treatment is necessary to see disease improvement by RECIST 1.0 criteria, and the somewhat encouraging findings in the nine subjects in this trial, studying a longer treatment period at the 100 gram dosage seems warranted." |
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Animal studies also support synergy, like this one, which concludes that "Gemcitabine-ascorbate combinations administered to mice bearing pancreatic tumor xenografts consistently enhanced inhibition of growth compared to gemcitabine alone, produced 50% growth inhibition in a tumor type not responsive to gemcitabine, and demonstrated a gemcitabine dose-sparing effect. These data support the testing of pharmacologic ascorbate in '''adjunctive''' treatments for cancers prone to high failure rates with conventional therapeutic regimens, such as pancreatic cancer." (emphasis added): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21402145 |
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There is a view that ascorbate interferes with chemotherapy. The source for this review is very problematic. As one response to it noted, "On the basis of cell and animal experiments with dehydroascorbic acid, Heaney and colleagues state, "These results suggest that supplementary vitamin C may have adverse consequences in patients receiving cancer therapy". Selectively referring to dehydroascorbic acid as vitamin C throughout the majority of this work may send a clouded message to patients and their caregivers. All known actions of vitamin C are mediated by the reduced molecule ascorbate, not the oxidized molecule dehydroascorbic acid. Mice lacking the tissue transport protein specific for ascorbate (Slc23a2) do not survive because of severe vitamin C deficiency, despite having no impairments in dehydroascorbic acid transport.": http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/69/22/8830.1.long |
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A review I highlighted a while ago also noted, "Dehydroascorbic acid was termed as and was used interchangeably with vitamin C, which is incorrect and misleading (79, 80). Such misnomers can muddy the underlying science, and as a consequence of the Internet, may result in confusion among patients and caregivers.": http://advances.nutrition.org/content/2/2/78.full |
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Anyway, this view is refuted with this systematic review: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17367938 |
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And particularly with ascorbate administered at high doses intravenously to subjects with cancer, there are differences in pharmacology. See the study "Pharmacologic doses of ascorbate act as a prooxidant and decrease growth of aggressive tumor xenografts in mice": http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2516281/ - the pharmacology of this discrepancy (given the different physiological environment) is explored here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304419X12000509 |
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Recall again this article (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16157892?dopt=Abstract), showing how ascorbate at very high levels can act as prodrug to deliver a significant flux of H2O2 to selectively kill cancer cells, and also the fact that "ascorbate does not appear to have toxicity on rapidly dividing normal cells", quoted in the above trial. Ascorbate has different action in different environments. As an aside, for most people, high dose iv vitamin c is safe. As this review concludes, "Other than the known complications of IV vitamin C in those with renal impairment or glucose 6 phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency, high dose intravenous vitamin C appears to be remarkably safe.": http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20628650 |
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As far as synergy is concerned, another trial also shows some efficacy for ascorbate treatment, as admitted in the conclusion: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00280-013-2070-8 |
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I will admit bias, as I was witness to my mother's suffering with chemotherapy, but at the same time acknowledge that there is a dearth of data on viable alternatives to standard treatments. Because of this, I gained some interest in complementary (and, as we now know, in some cases, synergistic) treatments like ascorbate, after the period of her treatment, so that others would not suffer as much. It is thus important to note that there are 2 studies showing improved quality of life, that show that while it does not have value as an alternative treatment, it does have value as a complementary treatment. One of these is this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6811475, and also there is this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22021693, which concludes, "Complementary treatment of breast cancer patients with i.v. vitamin C was shown to be a well tolerated optimization of standard tumour-destructive therapies, reducing quality of life-related side-effects." |
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I was banned from editing the article per [[WP:ARBPS]] (there was a premise that I was "edit warring", I do not feel that the data from the history supports that - see the history of the article edits - I made just one edit before I was reported, and reverted one edit after I was reported because I feel that the "edit warring" pretext was illegitimate, since it was used to revert my article, and I only made one edit). I feel that the fact of reconsideration being pushed in mainstream journals: http://advances.nutrition.org/content/2/2/78, http://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/29/3/809.long - means that the WP:ARBPS policies do not apply in this case. My initial concern was to accurately reflect the reviews (which are not accurately reflected in the article at this time). |
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Phase I trials are discouraged under [[WP:MEDRS]], so I don't think it is appropriate to put them in, whether they be positive or negative. I think a better edit (and you or another user would have to put it in), in light of this information and the discussion on the talk page, keeping everything simple, would be (I am using pseudo-wikipedia code here - the reasons the reviews suggest reevaluation are pharmacokinetics, case series, animal studies, and other pharmacological observations): |
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'''"Some research groups have recently suggested that the use of ascorbate in cancer treatment be reevaluated.( http://advances.nutrition.org/content/2/2/78 )( http://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/29/3/809.long ). A retrospective, multicenter, epidemiological cohort study showed that ''complementary'' treatment of cancer patients receiving traditional chemotherapy and radiotherapy with intravenous vitamin c improved quality of life.( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22021693 )"'''[[Special:Contributions/198.189.184.243|198.189.184.243]] ([[User talk:198.189.184.243|talk]]) 01:59, 25 September 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 02:32, 25 September 2013
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Process
Hi MastCell. I responded a bit impulsively today in the heat of the moment in the thread that alleges misrepresentation of sources. I sort of wish now that I'd held off, since I really appreciate your suggestion that we get back to the process we started. I think that's a good suggestion. TimidGuy (talk) 00:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
- OK. But since you're here, I want to ask you something. Our content on the purported health benefits of Transcendental Meditation is heavily influenced by editors affiliated with the TM movement. Do you think that raises questions about bias (either conscious or unconscious) in our coverage? I think the best practice (one that is recommended, but not demanded, by WP:COI) would be for editors with close connections to the movement to participate in talkpage discussion, but for independent, unaffiliated editors to manage the actual editing of article content.
I'm not a big fan of analogies, but let's say that our coverage of an antihypertensive drug from Merck were dominated by a small group of single-purpose accounts closely affiliated with Merck. That situation would rightly raise concerns about our ability to present accurate and unbiased medical information. I see a similar problem on the TM articles, at least as far as they intersect with medical claims. Do you?
Finally, I'm sort of disappointed in the lack of restraint shown by TM-affiliated editors. Frankly, there are a number of Wikipedia articles, both medical and biographical, which I avoid because I want to manage any potential conflicts of interest on my part. These are areas where I believe I could undoubtedly improve our coverage, but I recognize that my connections (which are not financial, but rather personal or professional) would potentially bias me. So I don't edit those articles, as a simple but healthy form of self-restraint. I sort of wish that some level of introspection would take place here so that people wouldn't need to beat the drum confrontationally about it. MastCell Talk 17:53, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Arbitrary arbitration with no accountability?
I'm beginning to think that there is an even more fundamental flaw in the so-called dispute resolution mechanism here on Wikipedia than I expressed earlier.
The main point of interest I have is whether or not there is a review mechanism--other than an appeal to Jim Wales--regarding arbitration proceedings.
Is it perhaps unreasonable to demand such a review mechanism. --Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 18:25, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
- There is no review mechanism for ArbCom decisions. If you disagree with them, you have no recourse, other than waiting for a change in the composition of the Committe. At least that's been my experience.
The only time I can remember the Committee correcting an erroneously decided case was Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Matthew Hoffman. And that case—an obvious travesty—wasn't corrected until 1.5 years had passed and the Committee's membership had undergone nearly a wholesale turnover. I've complained vocally about other decisions I considered badly misguided, for example Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/TimidGuy ban appeal. It doesn't accomplish anything other than making the Arbs pissed off at you. They might reconsider in a year or so when the dust has settled, but not now.
Last year I got so fed up with the conduct of a specific Arbitrator that I decided I didn't want to work on the project as long as he remained on the Committee. So I just stopped editing. Then, after he was removed in the 2012 election, I felt optimistic enough to start again. Those are pretty much your options.
Frankly, I'd suggest letting it go. Do something else for awhile. Being topic-banned from Tea-Party-related articles is a favor, not a punishment. Those articles are magnets for the worst editors (and worst editorial tendencies) on the project. When it comes to ArbCom, the best you can hope for is that you argue your case clearly. You can't change the result; all you can do is decide whether you still want to contribute to the project under the terms they've imposed, and vote in the next election. MastCell Talk 03:53, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
- Didn't they correct themselves on the WMC-Cortonin case? Guettarda (talk) 03:59, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
- But just to clarify - listen to MastCell. Nothing good comes from appealing arbcomm rulings. It's really hard to see the light of day from within a case, but the best thing you can do is prove them wrong, contribute constructively, work well with people you disagree with, and wait six months. There are several people on that list who I'm pretty sure won't be able to earn a reprieve in six months. From what I've seen of your editing Ubikwit, you probably could. Just stay out of fights and work on constructive collaborations. Stay away from controversial articles - for the most part, they'll sort themselves out eventually. (One of the main reasons the arbcomm goes for these 'pox on both your houses' rulings is that they work. If you clear out all the current warriors - who, often, have gone beyond content disputes into seriously not liking each other - then peace is very likely to come to the article. That creates room in which a decent result can be hammered out - or at least, it keeps the problem quiet enough that the rest of the community isn't bothered.) Guettarda (talk) 04:10, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Opinion request
Hi there MastCell, I am requesting outside opinion for the Asaram Bapu article. The talk page section in question is "Edit warring on the "potency test". I have read Wikipedia:Canvassing to be certain that I am within WP policy guidelines, and it is my understanding that my request is not considered canvassing, but if I'm wrong just let me know. I left the following edit on the article talk page:
- I believe that the arguments offered here have not shown reasonable rational for inclusion of a few early reports that stated that the girl's hymen was intact, while refusing to allow very widely reported information regarding the fact that, contrary to to a statement that he was impotent, a test has confirmed his potency. Since it appears that the editors here believe that they have offered adequate argument and are reverting any attempts to add any mention of the potency test, I wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same or closely related topics. User:Binksternet has done a lot of work with women's issues, User:MastCell has medical-related knowledge, and User:Roscelese has worked on rape-related articles. I will place an invitation to comment on their talk pages. Of course, other editors are welcome to ask for other opinions as well.
Thanks. Gandydancer (talk) 12:42, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for thinking of me, but I'm not sure I want to get involved. This case has all the makings of a typical wiki-disaster, and frankly I don't have much confidence in my fellow editors to handle high-profile rape allegations against a polarizing figure in a sensitive and diligent manner.
I guess I'll say a few things in the relative privacy of my talkpage, though. I think the focus on the "medical" aspects of the case is misplaced on both sides. First of all, the notion that an intact hymen precludes sexual assault is medieval and, one would hope, not an actual part of the legal process in India or anywhere else. Leaving aside the obvious reality that rape need not involve vaginal penetration, it's clear that even in cases where penetrative sexual assault has taken place, the hymen often remains intact (see, for example, Pediatrics 2009). So from a medical perspective, there's no reason to mention the issue as it has no bearing on whether or not a rape took place. One wonders why this detail made the pages of a purportedly reputable source in the first place.
Likewise, it's a bit questionable whether erectile function can be medically "proven". Without knowledge of the tests performed in this case, it's a bit hard to speculate, but most commonly a nocturnal penile tumescence test is used to determine whether erectile dysfunction is organic as opposed to psychological. However, an NPT test depends on a cooperative subject, and I've never heard of its use in a sexual-assault case to "prove" potency. I'm not aware of any test that can "prove" potency in a criminal situation with an unwilling participant. Again, I think this detail is best omitted, unless the defense case revolves around a claim of impotence.
I hope that's helpful, and good luck; it's always nice to see your name around Wikipedia and I hope you and yours are well. MastCell Talk 23:45, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for your detailed and intelligent response. Some time ago an editor asked me for help and I simply said that considering the group of editors that s/he was up against, I'd rather have my fingernails pulled out than get involved.
- Regarding the "medical tests", it is for good reason that India has been called the most backward country in the modern world when it comes to women's rights. In India, rape is the easy part compared to what a woman and her family go through if the rape is reported. Suicides, murders and forced marriages are not uncommon. Consequently very few are reported, but of the thousands that are almost none result in prosecution. Prior to the 2012 Delhi gang rape case, India was commonly using the "two finger test", but that case was so horrific and well-publicized that India did make sweeping changes in the definition of rape--but real change does not come overnight and who knows how much actual change has really come about. Regarding the so called "potency test", it was widely reported in all the Indian papers and described in detail. I'll find the details if you are curious. If I remember correctly, this 72-year old man did surprise the doctors when he responded to only physical stimulation. :-)
- Thanks for your best wishes, but I have really had a terrible summer. It started in the spring when I again returned to serious gardening when I expected that as the weeks went by and I became more active my joints would not be so sore. When they didn't get much better I thought it was just a sign of age. But the worst thing was feeling so fatigued all the time. Each day I'd plan to get a lot of gardening done and just never had enough energy to do much. Then a couple of weeks ago I thought of the dozens of tick bites I've had over the last few years and asked for a Lyme disease test, which turned out positive. I'm pretty sure that I got it last year, if not before. I'm having a few neuro symptoms, pins and needles, here and there... I'm on doxycycline, but from what I've read the symptoms may last for a long time--hopefully not forever? Do you have any info?
- I've talked to you about my sister Judy who has MM. It's been four years now. We went to Mayo for a second stem cell transplant about a year ago. She is still up and about and doing OK. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gandydancer (talk • contribs)
- I'm really sorry to hear about your difficulties. I know very little about late manifestations of Lyme disease, but I will say that you should be careful - there is quite a bit of misinformation and outright quackery out there when it comes to Lyme disease, partly because there are some real unanswered questions about its late manifestations. Just be sure that you're getting information from a source you trust. I don't diagnose or treat Lyme disease and have no relevant expertise or experience, but I will say that the peripheral neuropathy (pins-and-needles) are potentially a manifestation of Lyme, and my understanding is that neurologic manifestations of Lyma are typically treated with IV antibiotics (e.g. ceftriaxone) rather than oral doxycycline... but I don't want to second-guess the treatment you've gotten, because as I said I have no relevant expertise or experience and at the end of the day (going back to my point about trustworthy sources), I'm just an anonymous Wikipedian. :)
I'm glad your sister is doing OK. Myeloma is such an unpredictable disease, but things are hugely better than they used to be 5-10 years ago, with the advent of a lot of new treatments. In fact, new treatments for myeloma have come along so rapidly that they've outpaced clinical trials, and no one is completely sure of the optimal way to use them. Obviously she's in good hands at Mayo. The transplant process can be tough, especially the second time around, but I'm glad she's bounced back well. MastCell Talk 19:38, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
- I'm really sorry to hear about your difficulties. I know very little about late manifestations of Lyme disease, but I will say that you should be careful - there is quite a bit of misinformation and outright quackery out there when it comes to Lyme disease, partly because there are some real unanswered questions about its late manifestations. Just be sure that you're getting information from a source you trust. I don't diagnose or treat Lyme disease and have no relevant expertise or experience, but I will say that the peripheral neuropathy (pins-and-needles) are potentially a manifestation of Lyme, and my understanding is that neurologic manifestations of Lyma are typically treated with IV antibiotics (e.g. ceftriaxone) rather than oral doxycycline... but I don't want to second-guess the treatment you've gotten, because as I said I have no relevant expertise or experience and at the end of the day (going back to my point about trustworthy sources), I'm just an anonymous Wikipedian. :)
Precious
"hope—the most important thing in life"
Thank you, master of edit summaries, for quality contributions to articles on medicine, for advice on arbitrary arbitration, your compliments, for placing "hope—the most important thing in life" on top, but not without The Cynic's Guide to Wikipedia, - repeating: you are an awesome Wikipedian (2 February 2009)!
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you - that's very kind of you, and much appreciated. MastCell Talk 22:29, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
This briefly blocked user recently requested permission to edit via a VPN, which I declined and you accepted. He lives in Vermont, USA according to his userbox, and I was unable to fathom the reason for his request; he stated in his request it was to increase his security. Obviously I will not argue the point or indeed input any further into this case, but I would be interested to know why you felt that my action was not appropriate. He demonstrated the ability, while the VPN was blocked, to edit directly here, and unless Vermont has been translocated to the Peoples' Republic of China or North Korea I see no reason why he needs the additional security that a VPN possibly affords. I am probably missing something, but would be grateful for enlightenment as to what this may be?--Anthony Bradbury"talk" 21:30, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
- Nathan (talk · contribs) has been around for a long time, and has an excellent record as an editor. He's never been blocked. I'm very confident that he's not going to abuse the IP block exemption. (If for some reason he does, then I'll take partial responsibility). When an established editor in good standing with no history of misconduct requests IP-block-exemption, then I think the default should be to grant the request. His rationale - that he prefers to use a VPN to access the Internet from home - sounds entirely plausible to me, and I guess I feel it's not my place to skeptically deconstruct his explanation. Presumably his 5+ years and 10,000+ constructive edits here warrant some level of trust. My general feeling is that we should make it easy for good editors to edit here, rather than make it harder. MastCell Talk 22:07, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
- I had, and have, no reason to suspect him of planning any form of abuse, and concede his unblemished record. I felt that his rationale was questionable, but hey, such is life!. (I did feel that the criticism expressed in your posting to him was slightly hurtful, but no matter.) --Anthony Bradbury"talk" 19:46, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- I'm sorry - I apologize for my tone. I mean, I really apologize, not the usual passive-aggressive Wikipedian "apology". I shouldn't have expressed myself as harshly as I did. I suppose I've gotten a bit burnt-out here, but that's no reason to snap at you. Although our paths haven't crossed much that I can recall, I've got a generally positive impression of your work and I should have been kinder and less hurtful. I appreciate you letting me know that my tone was inappropriate, and I'll try to take that on board going forward. Cheers. MastCell Talk 21:04, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- Please don't feel that I was moaning at you; we all have bad days sometimes, me as much as anyone. All friends here. --Anthony Bradbury"talk" 15:13, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- I'm sorry - I apologize for my tone. I mean, I really apologize, not the usual passive-aggressive Wikipedian "apology". I shouldn't have expressed myself as harshly as I did. I suppose I've gotten a bit burnt-out here, but that's no reason to snap at you. Although our paths haven't crossed much that I can recall, I've got a generally positive impression of your work and I should have been kinder and less hurtful. I appreciate you letting me know that my tone was inappropriate, and I'll try to take that on board going forward. Cheers. MastCell Talk 21:04, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- I had, and have, no reason to suspect him of planning any form of abuse, and concede his unblemished record. I felt that his rationale was questionable, but hey, such is life!. (I did feel that the criticism expressed in your posting to him was slightly hurtful, but no matter.) --Anthony Bradbury"talk" 19:46, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- This is unacceptable. An official Wikipedia apology is supposed to follow the standard form "I'm sorry that your [insert your opponent's weakness here] has caused you to take offense at my harmless comment." This looks suspiciously like an actual apology, which as you know is forbidden by policy. Even worse, this appears to be an actual acceptance of an apology, with no lingering grudge registered, which is also severely frowned on. As admins, you're both expected to conform with site best practices. I'm disappointed in both of you. Please begin bickering immediately. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:42, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- :-) I was most offended to read "to take that on board going forward". Have you been on a management course recently? Taking Floquenbeam's comment, though, I'll have to consider that my weak British genes mean any offence is entirely my fault and go read WP:NOTCENSORED as self-punishment. Colin°Talk 18:10, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- No, I sentence you to three weeks of participation at Talk:Shooting of Trayvon Martin, which would be enough to turn even Candide into a cynic about human nature. As far as management-speak, what can I say? In the past few weeks, I've had a lot more contact than usual with the corporate side of my employer. You know, dialoguing, promoting synergy, identifying our organizational North Star, working on lean production methods so we can be more like Toyota (and who doesn't want their medical care handled like an automobile assembly line?)... so I guess I've been infected going forward. MastCell Talk 18:23, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- :-) I was most offended to read "to take that on board going forward". Have you been on a management course recently? Taking Floquenbeam's comment, though, I'll have to consider that my weak British genes mean any offence is entirely my fault and go read WP:NOTCENSORED as self-punishment. Colin°Talk 18:10, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Just to chime in - there are a bunch of different reasons to edit from behind a VPN and/or use other methods to increase the security of ones Internet traffic. I've been doing it for awhile, but you might see a surge (relatively speaking) in IPBE requests related to people taking security steps in a post-Snowden world. It also adds some protection for information that should remain secure, reduces the visibility of your identity to marketers and others who would like to use your Web activity for business purposes, and defeats some attempts by ISPs to filter traffic based on type (i.e. preserves a degree of net neutrality).
I think it might make sense to become a little more liberal in the criteria for granting the exemption, and I've always found it a little distasteful that we interrogate those requesting it and then make an inexpert judgment about whether they "really need it." It's invasive, carries the potential for placing the requester at risk, and relies on administrators to draw conclusions about circumstances despite the typical absence of any relevant knowledge or expertise. My geographic location, for instance, provides little information about my particular situation or whether I would have a legitimate interest in the security provided by my VPN... yet Anthony points it out as though it were definitive proof that I couldn't possibly have one. I suppose my response to his decline was a little snippy too, but he ought to admit that his rejection was curt and not particularly thoughtful or courteous. Calling it silly is a pretty mild form of reproof. Nathan T 17:48, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- Nathan, please note that you were not interrogated by anyone about your need to edit through a VPN. I am sorry if you felt that my rejection was curt. The dialogue above was clearly not meant to be taken seriously, and Mastcell and I are not in any sense confrontational. --Anthony Bradbury"talk" 19:23, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- You said yourself that you declined it because you couldn't see why I might need to use a VPN. That implies that it was on me to justify that to you. The policy, by the by, makes clear that administrators are supposed to determine the circumstances and justification for granting an IPBE in this circumstance. And don't worry, I'm not taking the dialogue about apologies seriously - and most of it was posted after my comment came in, fwiw ;) Nathan T 21:44, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- This could get silly if we are not careful. Are you saying that you think I should have interrogated you about your need for a VPN? Because I did not and do not feel that I should do so. Can we close this discussion here?--Anthony Bradbury"talk" 21:50, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- You said yourself that you declined it because you couldn't see why I might need to use a VPN. That implies that it was on me to justify that to you. The policy, by the by, makes clear that administrators are supposed to determine the circumstances and justification for granting an IPBE in this circumstance. And don't worry, I'm not taking the dialogue about apologies seriously - and most of it was posted after my comment came in, fwiw ;) Nathan T 21:44, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Userbox request
Dear MastCell - I am an admirer of the presentation and in strong agreement with the sentiment expressed in your WP:CIV userbox. May I have one on my page? Ta, Plutonium27 (talk) 17:38, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- Of course! They're public domain, but it's very... civil of you to ask first. :) You just need to transclude {{User:MastCell/UBX-CIV}}. Enjoy. MastCell Talk 17:57, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
User: Rangoon11
Hey, I noticed you were the editor who put an indefinite block on User:Rangoon11. I was wondering if this editor has had issues that you know of with continuing to sock after this indefinite block was put in place. Thanks!--Yaksar (let's chat) 20:41, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- The issue came up recently here. I haven't followed Rangoon11 since the block, so can't really comment on whether there have been additional issues. MastCell Talk 21:25, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- Ok, I seem to have come up in an edit war against his socks so I was just curious, thanks.--Yaksar (let's chat) 21:47, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
controversy about vitamin c
I am unable to edit on pages related to the topic of my concern, as a result of discretionary sanctions, so as a last ditch effort, I thought I'd appeal to you, an active editor on the orthomolecular medicine topic, and present my case. What you decide to do with it is your business. These are my concerns:
The fact that some people dropped out of the study means that it is not very helpful to make conclusions about them in the study (e.g. - you state that the stabilization rate in the Monti study was 50% - this includes the people who dropped out. However, if we include the people who actually completed the study, 7/9, or 77% had stabilization - higher than the 60% average of treatment with the traditional drug alone). Also, your statement about the nature of the stabilization (purporting 0% regression) can be challenged by figure 3 of the trial: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0029794.g003/originalimage, showing that there was regression, but regression lower than the required standards of RECIST criteria for it to be reported as such. Partial response criteria is at least 30%: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_Evaluation_Criteria_in_Solid_Tumors#Response_Criteria, so your statement about ascorbate lowering efficacy seems unwarranted, as gemcitabine/erlotinib do not qualify as drugs evoking partial response, according to the study you gave.
There are some other interesting observations from the study that are noteworthy: "Overall, the safety data do not reveal adverse events other than what might be expected for progression of pancreatic cancer and/or treatment with gemcitabine and erlotinib. Deaths of three patients who died before completing the study were attributable to underlying and rapidly advancing disease, as affirmed by the Data Safety and Monitoring Board. [...] primary tumor size ... specifically decreased in the three subjects who received the highest ascorbic acid dose. [...] It is noted that RECIST 1.0 criteria for stable disease are inclusive of a 19% increase in target lesions [24]. Other studies of gemcitabine efficacy in pancreatic cancer that categorize disease as stable do not provide details concerning target lesion increases under 20%, meaning that subjects with target lesion size increases up to 19% are still considered stable disease. Therefore, the importance of our finding of target size decrease in 8 of 9 subjects may be underestimated. [...] In particular, unlike many cancer therapies, ascorbate does not appear to have toxicity on rapidly dividing normal cells such as those in intestine cells, hair follicle cells, and bone marrow. Because of the absence of apparent tissue toxicity, effects of ascorbic acid treatment on human tumors might be expected to be more gradual, and as a corollary to require longer treatment. This possibility is consistent with observations from case reports of patients who received intravenous ascorbic acid as treatment for several types of cancers. [...] Given the possibility that longer ascorbic acid treatment is necessary to see disease improvement by RECIST 1.0 criteria, and the somewhat encouraging findings in the nine subjects in this trial, studying a longer treatment period at the 100 gram dosage seems warranted."
Animal studies also support synergy, like this one, which concludes that "Gemcitabine-ascorbate combinations administered to mice bearing pancreatic tumor xenografts consistently enhanced inhibition of growth compared to gemcitabine alone, produced 50% growth inhibition in a tumor type not responsive to gemcitabine, and demonstrated a gemcitabine dose-sparing effect. These data support the testing of pharmacologic ascorbate in adjunctive treatments for cancers prone to high failure rates with conventional therapeutic regimens, such as pancreatic cancer." (emphasis added): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21402145
There is a view that ascorbate interferes with chemotherapy. The source for this review is very problematic. As one response to it noted, "On the basis of cell and animal experiments with dehydroascorbic acid, Heaney and colleagues state, "These results suggest that supplementary vitamin C may have adverse consequences in patients receiving cancer therapy". Selectively referring to dehydroascorbic acid as vitamin C throughout the majority of this work may send a clouded message to patients and their caregivers. All known actions of vitamin C are mediated by the reduced molecule ascorbate, not the oxidized molecule dehydroascorbic acid. Mice lacking the tissue transport protein specific for ascorbate (Slc23a2) do not survive because of severe vitamin C deficiency, despite having no impairments in dehydroascorbic acid transport.": http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/69/22/8830.1.long
A review I highlighted a while ago also noted, "Dehydroascorbic acid was termed as and was used interchangeably with vitamin C, which is incorrect and misleading (79, 80). Such misnomers can muddy the underlying science, and as a consequence of the Internet, may result in confusion among patients and caregivers.": http://advances.nutrition.org/content/2/2/78.full
Anyway, this view is refuted with this systematic review: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17367938
And particularly with ascorbate administered at high doses intravenously to subjects with cancer, there are differences in pharmacology. See the study "Pharmacologic doses of ascorbate act as a prooxidant and decrease growth of aggressive tumor xenografts in mice": http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2516281/ - the pharmacology of this discrepancy (given the different physiological environment) is explored here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304419X12000509
Recall again this article (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16157892?dopt=Abstract), showing how ascorbate at very high levels can act as prodrug to deliver a significant flux of H2O2 to selectively kill cancer cells, and also the fact that "ascorbate does not appear to have toxicity on rapidly dividing normal cells", quoted in the above trial. Ascorbate has different action in different environments. As an aside, for most people, high dose iv vitamin c is safe. As this review concludes, "Other than the known complications of IV vitamin C in those with renal impairment or glucose 6 phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency, high dose intravenous vitamin C appears to be remarkably safe.": http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20628650
As far as synergy is concerned, another trial also shows some efficacy for ascorbate treatment, as admitted in the conclusion: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00280-013-2070-8
I will admit bias, as I was witness to my mother's suffering with chemotherapy, but at the same time acknowledge that there is a dearth of data on viable alternatives to standard treatments. Because of this, I gained some interest in complementary (and, as we now know, in some cases, synergistic) treatments like ascorbate, after the period of her treatment, so that others would not suffer as much. It is thus important to note that there are 2 studies showing improved quality of life, that show that while it does not have value as an alternative treatment, it does have value as a complementary treatment. One of these is this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6811475, and also there is this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22021693, which concludes, "Complementary treatment of breast cancer patients with i.v. vitamin C was shown to be a well tolerated optimization of standard tumour-destructive therapies, reducing quality of life-related side-effects."
I was banned from editing the article per WP:ARBPS (there was a premise that I was "edit warring", I do not feel that the data from the history supports that - see the history of the article edits - I made just one edit before I was reported, and reverted one edit after I was reported because I feel that the "edit warring" pretext was illegitimate, since it was used to revert my article, and I only made one edit). I feel that the fact of reconsideration being pushed in mainstream journals: http://advances.nutrition.org/content/2/2/78, http://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/29/3/809.long - means that the WP:ARBPS policies do not apply in this case. My initial concern was to accurately reflect the reviews (which are not accurately reflected in the article at this time).
Phase I trials are discouraged under WP:MEDRS, so I don't think it is appropriate to put them in, whether they be positive or negative. I think a better edit (and you or another user would have to put it in), in light of this information and the discussion on the talk page, keeping everything simple, would be (I am using pseudo-wikipedia code here - the reasons the reviews suggest reevaluation are pharmacokinetics, case series, animal studies, and other pharmacological observations):
"Some research groups have recently suggested that the use of ascorbate in cancer treatment be reevaluated.( http://advances.nutrition.org/content/2/2/78 )( http://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/29/3/809.long ). A retrospective, multicenter, epidemiological cohort study showed that complementary treatment of cancer patients receiving traditional chemotherapy and radiotherapy with intravenous vitamin c improved quality of life.( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22021693 )"198.189.184.243 (talk) 01:59, 25 September 2013 (UTC)