"It was reading the ultimate paragraph of this post: [1] that finally convinced me it was time to go, yes, Hans is quite right, I am stuck in a vicious circle and there was no likelihood of things improving."
— Extract from Giano's retirement statement
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Well, if you're around and bored...
Ralph Neville is looking bored... bored bishops are a bad thing... right? Ealdgyth - Talk 17:37, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
- Not really bored, busy elsewhere, but popping in from time to time. My own writing days here are over I think, lost all enthusiasm for it, but I remain willing to help those who've helped me in the past by doing a bit of comma shifting from time to time. For now at least anyway. Malleus Fatuorum 18:26, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
- I've dealt with your findings of my problematic writing ... ready for the next set. Oh, and Middle Ages made GA! Ealdgyth - Talk 23:46, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
- Blimey, that's one heck of an achievement! I'll have another read through Ralph later/tomorrow; who knows, it may all look fine to me now, and there may not even be a next set. Malleus Fatuorum 23:51, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
- After some more research, I'm thinking heading to FA for good old Middle Ages, actually. Be a while, and will need a good PR and stuff first, but I'm actually rather proud of the thing. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:55, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
- As you should be; that's a real core article. How much do you bet that I couldn't find something that needs fixing in it though? ;-) Malleus Fatuorum 00:02, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
- After some more research, I'm thinking heading to FA for good old Middle Ages, actually. Be a while, and will need a good PR and stuff first, but I'm actually rather proud of the thing. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:55, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
- Blimey, that's one heck of an achievement! I'll have another read through Ralph later/tomorrow; who knows, it may all look fine to me now, and there may not even be a next set. Malleus Fatuorum 23:51, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
- I've dealt with your findings of my problematic writing ... ready for the next set. Oh, and Middle Ages made GA! Ealdgyth - Talk 23:46, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Sumo urina? Pesky (talk) 04:13, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
- So... how does Ralphie look? I'm going to be gardening for the next couple of days ... we got warm enough to finally plant out the seedlings... but Ralph at FAC would spare me from working on my "to-do" list for Middle Ages... Ealdgyth - Talk 00:48, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
CBT and NICE
Mal, when I started in on cognitive behavioral therapy, there was some poorly written and poorly sourced text about criticism of it in the UK. I removed it. Could you find me any high quality sources or help me reinstate something, per your comment at WP:ENB? I'm only familiar with CBT in the TS/OCD realm in the US, where it is well accepted as superior to medication alone when used in conjunction with medication, but there was something about the whole NICE business in the UK that I wasn't able to sort. Help? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:46, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'll see what I can find, but as I said, as one example, there are so many drivers here being encouraged to claim for a course of CBT to address their alleged fear of driving after having been involved in a minor road traffic incident that's it's little more than a joke as far as I'm concerned. Admittedly though I am one of the founder members of the "for Christ's sake pull yourself together" school of psychology. Malleus Fatuorum 22:12, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
- I wish more people would take a CBT, we need more two-wheeled road users... Parrot of Doom 22:15, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
- (talk page stalker) Sandy - Drew Westen has some critical things to say about the hegemony of CBT in the Psychological Bulletin 2004 Jul;130(4):631-63; The empirical status of empirically supported psychotherapies: assumptions, findings, and reporting in controlled clinical trials. Westen D, Novotny CM, Thompson-Brenner H. Westen et al. say "numerous studies have shown that CBT and IPT (and a number of lesser known brands) produce initial outcomes comparable with those obtained with medications. Over the course of 3 years, however, patients who receive these 16-session psychotherapies relapse at unacceptably high rates relative to patients in medication conditions if the latter are maintained on medication during the follow-up period" and "However, only one third of patients across treatments or in individual CBT (which tended to fare slightly better than other treatments, particularly group CBT) showed sustained recovery at 1 year (i.e., recovered at termination and remained recovered at 1 year)." Don't know if that's any help; I'm not a CBT-basher but I am interested in a fairer reporting of its up and down sides. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 22:17, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks, but that's about application to individual conditions-- the criticism had something to do with the British Health System and NICE ... but it was poorly sourced. And the NICE website is a nightmare. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:17, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
- My wife is involved in setting up clinical trials here, for drugs, not for CBT quackery, but I'll ask her for an opinion. If it's printable, but I suspect that it may not be, I'll let you know. Malleus Fatuorum 23:28, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
- Further info that may help. I'm aware that TS treatment in the UK is horrid, practically medieval, and from trying to find sources in the NICE website, I got the impression they are forcing CBT on folks, using it where it might not be proven, and using it first rather than in conjunction with medication, and that folks have no choice per the British Health System. That's not how it works here, and CBT in conjunction with medication works at least for OCD. Anyway, it was a criticism specific to the British NICE application of CBT, but I need a better source. CBT in general for conditions where it's proven effective, typically in conjunction with meds, isn't quackery just because NICE is forcing it to be misapplied. I hope. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:32, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
- My wife is involved in setting up clinical trials here, for drugs, not for CBT quackery, but I'll ask her for an opinion. If it's printable, but I suspect that it may not be, I'll let you know. Malleus Fatuorum 23:28, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks, but that's about application to individual conditions-- the criticism had something to do with the British Health System and NICE ... but it was poorly sourced. And the NICE website is a nightmare. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:17, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
- (talk page stalker) Sandy - Drew Westen has some critical things to say about the hegemony of CBT in the Psychological Bulletin 2004 Jul;130(4):631-63; The empirical status of empirically supported psychotherapies: assumptions, findings, and reporting in controlled clinical trials. Westen D, Novotny CM, Thompson-Brenner H. Westen et al. say "numerous studies have shown that CBT and IPT (and a number of lesser known brands) produce initial outcomes comparable with those obtained with medications. Over the course of 3 years, however, patients who receive these 16-session psychotherapies relapse at unacceptably high rates relative to patients in medication conditions if the latter are maintained on medication during the follow-up period" and "However, only one third of patients across treatments or in individual CBT (which tended to fare slightly better than other treatments, particularly group CBT) showed sustained recovery at 1 year (i.e., recovered at termination and remained recovered at 1 year)." Don't know if that's any help; I'm not a CBT-basher but I am interested in a fairer reporting of its up and down sides. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 22:17, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
- I wish more people would take a CBT, we need more two-wheeled road users... Parrot of Doom 22:15, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
OK, I went back to the old version to revisit what I had deleted due to poor sourcing. Some of it was not reliably sourced, some of it was outdated, and some of it was specific criticism of the NHS as far as I could tell, so I reinstated what I could according to WP:MEDMOS and WP:MEDRS to the Society and culture section. Cognitive behavioral therapy#Society and culture. So, it appears that was the issue? Could you improve on that, or find sources that address this notion? From this side of the pond, it looks like government interference with healthcare, similar to the direction things are trending here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:35, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
- (Hoping Malleus is OK with this discussion happening on his talk page...) The biggest influence in the last 6-8 years has not been NICE, but rather the Department of Health's IAPT programme - Improving Access to Psychological Therapies. It is IAPT's implementation, rather than NICE's recommendations, which have caused controversy. There is this article from The Psychologist - the monthly news journal of the British Psychological Society. Press releases are not ideal sources obviously, but this one is from the UKCP and illustrates the view of this important body. There's quite a good opinion piece from The Guardian that might have some useful stuff too. Hope some of that might be relevant. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 21:28, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
- thanks! The first makes me nervous since it's labeled as "opinion pieces". The second (press release) looks usable, but what is "Shadow Health"? I might find a way to use the piece from The Guardian-- as long as I'm careful with the phrasing, I might be able to use these in ways that doesn't breach WP:MEDRS-- it's not so much about CBT, as the way it's being used in the UK health system? Which fits in "Society and culture"? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:47, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
- The Shadow Health Minister is the Opposition (ie currently Labour) politician who shadows his Government (currently Conservative) opposite number. The opinion piece is obviously not independent news, but it is published by the British Psychological Society. Clearly, none of these three meet WP:MEDRS but then they are none of them about the medical/clinical aspects of CBT but rather its social/political role and implementation. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 22:00, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
- "In the Layard Report problems like depression and anxiety are viewed as discrete conditions that will get better with the right treatment. Layard writes about people being ‘cured’, implying that these conditions are similar to illnesses like measles that can reliably diagnosed and simply treated. This is the cornerstone of his economic argument. But it is a naive view of psychological problems and their treatment." Exactly. Reminds me very much of a book that made a great impression on me, Szaz's The Myth of Mental Illness. Malleus Fatuorum 22:14, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
- thanks! The first makes me nervous since it's labeled as "opinion pieces". The second (press release) looks usable, but what is "Shadow Health"? I might find a way to use the piece from The Guardian-- as long as I'm careful with the phrasing, I might be able to use these in ways that doesn't breach WP:MEDRS-- it's not so much about CBT, as the way it's being used in the UK health system? Which fits in "Society and culture"? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:47, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
I added back what I could, but I need to get out to my garden ... please feel free to dig in and fix my damage! I feel like it's OK to include this criticism in this form under "Society and culture"-- we aren't making medical statements there. Thanks again, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:03, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Goodness, I can't believe I got you to edit that article-- but I appreciate it! Look at what was there before I started slashing and burning. Thanks Malleus! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:12, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- There's a lot more slashing and burning needed though; I really can't believe the state of that article. Malleus Fatuorum 02:23, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- It's typical of our psych articles ... and WMF is helping make 'em worse. Thanks again! There's no reason for a topic like that to be in such awful shape when sources are plentiful and accessible. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:38, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
New article that shows up on medicine new page patrol. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:48, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Oh my, I just realized that's the editor who made Hugo Chavez even worse than it was before he started ... if that's possible. Anyway, have you noticed that new page patrol no longer works at all on Wikipedia? Folks used to catch problem articles more than now ... now most of them are getting through. I don't think anyone cares any more. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:43, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- As long as the WMF (and most administrators it seems) consider editors to be easily replaceable units of work the decline will continue. My hope is that a project like Qwiki will mature as an alternative to Wikipedia, and when it does you won't see me for dust. Malleus Fatuorum 04:14, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- While not disagreeing with the initial sentiment in your post, I'm not sure what you mean "won't see me for dust". As far as I can tell, Qwiki is more-or-less a pretty wrapper around Wikipedia article text and pictures (as well as information from other web sites). I entered my local suburb into Qwiki, sat back, and listened to a (relatively) pleasant female voice read the current Wikipedia article to me. I even saw photographs come up on Qwiki that I had taken around the suburb and uploaded to Wikipedia. It's still going to take editors here to provide good quality text for the Qwiki project to scrape. I don't see any opportunity for ordinary editors to contribute to Qwiki (although their site says that there are currently four positions available there). GFHandel ♬ 06:42, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- ... and now I feel guilty for having done no new page patrol for months! Pesky (talk) 08:22, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- It has become really bad ... I struggle to keep up with Medicine and Venezuela articles, but I throw up my hands in despair over at least half of what I see ... I don't have enough time to take on more than a few, and what is getting through is horrible. I also despair at how often I see someone got there before me and failed to identify issues, AFD, CSD, prod, whatever. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:55, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- For now it is. Malleus Fatuorum 14:15, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- Back in the autumn, I was sometimes patrolling more than a hundred a day. CorenSearchBot was down, and between August and December I CSD tagged over 100 blatant copyvio pages (which were removed). Then, in December, I kinda lost my motivation. It hasn't really properly come back yet. So I don't really feel like doing npp. Pesky (talk) 19:57, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- ... and now I feel guilty for having done no new page patrol for months! Pesky (talk) 08:22, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- While not disagreeing with the initial sentiment in your post, I'm not sure what you mean "won't see me for dust". As far as I can tell, Qwiki is more-or-less a pretty wrapper around Wikipedia article text and pictures (as well as information from other web sites). I entered my local suburb into Qwiki, sat back, and listened to a (relatively) pleasant female voice read the current Wikipedia article to me. I even saw photographs come up on Qwiki that I had taken around the suburb and uploaded to Wikipedia. It's still going to take editors here to provide good quality text for the Qwiki project to scrape. I don't see any opportunity for ordinary editors to contribute to Qwiki (although their site says that there are currently four positions available there). GFHandel ♬ 06:42, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Same old, same old at ANI and RfA
RfA of Dennis Brown: ANI of Kiefer.Wolfowitz
Please be aware of Dennis Brown's comments at ANI, and that Dennis Brown is currently a candidate to be an administrator.
Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:46, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- Meh. I see so many (far too many) "cases" in here that, if they'd been presented to me as homework, they would have been sent back with "Inadequate background research – do again." Pesky (talk) 20:54, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Beatles infobox
There is a Straw Poll taking place here, and your input would be appreciated. — GabeMc (talk) 23:31, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
And just because...
Hee! Ealdgyth - Talk 01:04, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
DYK
Malleus, you've bitched about DYK so often--I'm glad I found an article that proves you wrong. Eminently encyclopedic, carefully proofread, and of great importance to the world, I present you Template:Did you know nominations/Justin Bieber on Twitter. That's right: suck on that, all you geeks with your medieval bishops and your obscure 20th-century novels that aren't even in print anymore. Drmies (talk) 14:18, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- No doubt it'll get more hits than people like Einstein and Gandhi.. Imagine opening an old dusty encyclopedia and seeing an entry "Justin Bieber on Twitter"... But the writer has proved coverage in multiple sources so I doubt it would be deleted if you AFDd it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:11, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Un-fucking-believable! Sadly though I fear that Dr. Blofeld is right; it's destined to remain an embarrassment. Malleus Fatuorum 15:30, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- If you want to see more embarrassment, go back in history ... it was even better! Hey, Malleus, did you change your e-mail address? I emailed you days ago. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:54, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- I didn't change it, but I don't check that old email address as often as I should as it got so cluttered up with spam. Something seems to have gone wrong with my email server as well, as I can't reply from that account. Until I get that fixed it's best to email me from here. Malleus Fatuorum 16:42, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- (e/c with Sandy) I think the article was written by LauraHale (talk · contribs) as a result of a conversation at this WT:DYK thread. One editor wrote Enough already. It seems every week or so there is a DYK about [University of Michigan] football. No other institution gets this kind of attention. Is the editor a U of M fan or alum? If so, he is abusing the prerogatives of his position. Cut it out. ... it is the editor's job to work on articles that interest readers. This is typical U of M arrogance. It is an attitude that makes the Michigan Daily a joke." LauraHale responded "It absolutely is not an editor's job to work on articles that interest readers. If that was the case, Wikipedia's most viewed articles would be better shape and we'd get non-stop celebrity news on the front page. How many Justin Beiber DYKs have you worked on as an editor knowing the huge amount of interest readers have in him?"
- Within a short time of posting that comment, she had started work on the Bieber Twitter article, which appears to be a departure from her normal editing work (which to judge from her user page is more focused on women's sports). I get the impression that she has gone outside of her normal article writing zone as a personal challenge and / or experiment - it'll be interesting to see how many hits it gets on the main page in due course. It may well need improving, like many articles on WP already, but I found it an interesting read about two areas of youth culture about which I know v little... And it may not have been covered in old dusty encyclopaedias, but the existence of this article does not come at the expense of an article on another topic in the finished WP, after all. BencherliteTalk 15:57, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- It does come at the expanse of the project's reputation though.VolunteerMarek 15:58, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) If "public interest" is now the measure of importance, as measured by pageviews, Wife selling is the fourth most important topic on Wikipedia, closely followed by Cock Lane ghost, and Daniel Lambert is more important than Elvis Presley. Stats don't lie. 78.149.243.251 (talk) 16:03, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- I actually gave Laura a barnstar recently for her work on African women's football teams. Didn't get a thanks though, probably too busy Beliebering.. Yep we reach a level in the popular culture phenomenon... ♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:05, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Malleus, sadly you believe that Blofeld is right or sadly you believe that Blofeld is right? Mrs. Fowler does not appreciate danglers. You all here are reinforcing this old view of an encyclopedia. Get with the times, fools. Twitter counts. Student evaluations determine tenure. Text should be simple, and writing is overrated. I know of a person (in fact, I am married to this person) who is allowed to make a playlist as a final project in a graduate lit class instead of one of those old-fashioned "papers". Drmies (talk) 16:51, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- BTW, I'll report myself on ANI as having canvassed, if someone hasn't beaten me to that yet. Drmies (talk) 16:51, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Bugger! I've fallen foul of an adversative conjunction!. Now the only outstanding question is what excuse the administrators will invent to have me blocked for this. Malleus Fatuorum 17:14, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- That is truly an outstanding question, Malleus--I congratulate you for honoring the letter and spirit of Ambiguity day. Drmies (talk) 17:20, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- I was waiting for a child admin to come by and nab you for ... civility, NPA or some such. I've always thought it would be fun to come over here and pick a rip-roaring fight with Malleus, attack the shit out of him, just to see which of us would be blocked first. A breaching experiment, ya know ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:58, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- As canvassing has been explained to me recently, Drmies is clearly in breach of the daft policy. As is almost everyone else almost every single day. Malleus Fatuorum 17:14, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Sandy, the way to get some attention is by starting a new section (so it shows up on Recent changes) with a title that seems insulting, such as ...
- And the answer to your question Sandy is surely obvious; it would in some way be portrayed as my fault for having provoked you, just as with Pedro's recent nonsense, for which he got a free pass. Malleus Fatuorum 17:17, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- I wouldn't put money on that-- it would be a fun experiment because there's a posse after me these days as well! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:21, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- You'll get used to it. There are some names that as soon as I see them I know exactly what they're going to be saying, and I'm rarely disappointed. Remember how accurately Iridescent predicted the result of that recent ArbCom case based only on what he knew of the arbitrators involved? Malleus Fatuorum 17:25, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- I wouldn't put money on that-- it would be a fun experiment because there's a posse after me these days as well! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:21, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Bugger! I've fallen foul of an adversative conjunction!. Now the only outstanding question is what excuse the administrators will invent to have me blocked for this. Malleus Fatuorum 17:14, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Gropecunt Lane is right up there as well, at number 10. Interestingly it was mentioned on Rory Mcgrath's TV programm Pub Dig several times last night, and each time the "cunt" bit was bleeped out, so I'm not sure how much the viewers would have got from that. Malleus Fatuorum 17:25, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Didn't they also mention cock ale? Someone's been reading Wikipedia. Nev1 (talk) 17:32, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- They did, and in fact they made some. Malleus Fatuorum 17:35, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'm sure you were tickled when you saw that program. Congrats! I hadn't read about cock ale yet--wow. Truth is stranger than fiction. Drmies (talk) 17:52, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think the best was when Stephen Fry Tweeted on the article's TFA day how much he enjoyed Gropecunt Lane. Malleus Fatuorum 18:02, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Thou shalt not question Stephen Fry. MastCell Talk 18:06, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Back in January Parrot of Doom mentioned that he'd proposed a radio documentary on the 1910 London to Manchester air race and included links to Eagle and Mary Toft. Not long after documentaries were made on the last two, and PoD was nonplussed (it's better explained here). While Pub Dig wasn't exclusively about Gropecunt Lane and cock ale, which are both linked from PoD's user page, I suspect he won't be too impressed. A documentary on Harris's List of Covent Garden Ladies next? To be fair PoD's articles are on some fascinating subjects. Nev1 (talk) 12:11, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think the best was when Stephen Fry Tweeted on the article's TFA day how much he enjoyed Gropecunt Lane. Malleus Fatuorum 18:02, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'm sure you were tickled when you saw that program. Congrats! I hadn't read about cock ale yet--wow. Truth is stranger than fiction. Drmies (talk) 17:52, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- They did, and in fact they made some. Malleus Fatuorum 17:35, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Didn't they also mention cock ale? Someone's been reading Wikipedia. Nev1 (talk) 17:32, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- I actually gave Laura a barnstar recently for her work on African women's football teams. Didn't get a thanks though, probably too busy Beliebering.. Yep we reach a level in the popular culture phenomenon... ♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:05, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- One wonders what will happen when I finally get around to sorting out Thomas Rowlandson. I suspect an article littered with 18th-century pornographic images (NSFW) won't go down too well...
I think these Twitter account articles are about the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen on this site (and there is some ridiculous stuff). And Drmies, nana na booboo I canvassed you fir-irst! :p LadyofShalott 02:42, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- na na boo boo? — Ched : ? 13:38, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Well I had a go at writing a condensed borderline encyclopedic version in the Justin Bieber article... But I'm not sure how any content discussing people's activities on Twitter could be considered even remotely encyclopedic...♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:30, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Bieber's Twitter account deemed encyclopedic but 1970s in science and technology not!!♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:21, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Cunt
I had no idea what a flexible word this was--"cunt-up" is news to me. Also, I hope you can "look" at these Google Books, but there is a Cunt Coloring Book. That's more fun than Manzilian waxing. Drmies (talk) 17:17, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- OK, I should have called this "You cunt", that shows up much better. Some Recent change patroller just read this: thanks for checking, I think we're good! Drmies (talk) 17:19, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Asshole! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:20, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- The existence of the coloring book made my day, and I'd like to thank you for bringing it to my attention. Seriously. Equazcion (talk) 17:22, 25 Apr 2012 (UTC)
- You're welcome. And there is more to enjoy--I love Amazon. BTW, is Keyzer Soze a notable author yet? Drmies (talk) 17:25, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, will you both just Go the Fuck to Sleep. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:26, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Now that was a DYK that improved mankind. You know that Kelapstick and I got sent the press kit from the publisher? Blatant Wiki-ing off for pay, it was. Drmies (talk) 17:53, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Oh my, when I posted that, I hadn't even realized you were involved. I happened across that book in a bookstore, and am still laughing. Good on you !!! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:24, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Hehe thanks. How my kids managed to learn of that book and started reciting the title I'll never know. I mean, it's not like I left it on the dinner table or something. I think. Like lots of funny articles on weird topics, this started with my friend Kelapstick, also a proud father. Drmies (talk) 19:05, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Oh my, when I posted that, I hadn't even realized you were involved. I happened across that book in a bookstore, and am still laughing. Good on you !!! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:24, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Now that was a DYK that improved mankind. You know that Kelapstick and I got sent the press kit from the publisher? Blatant Wiki-ing off for pay, it was. Drmies (talk) 17:53, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Boobs?
According to an almost-family-member's Facebook page: "Boobs are the proof that men can focus on two things at once." Pesky (talk) 10:00, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- ZOMG! I have just realised that that could be construed as a sexist remark! (Though which of the genders should feel offended, I have no idea ...) Pesky (talk) 11:36, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- To quote the late Barney Fife, "You're a boob, Gomer!" Be careful, or they'll toss you into the booby hatch. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:40, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
ANI notification
Hi Malleus--perhaps you have an interest in this thread, see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#To_ban_or_not_to_ban.3F. The editor in question is, besides a bad, bad, blocked editor, also the author of User:AnotherWeeWilly/sandbox. Feel free to refer to me as a moron for inviting you to that place, but there's a beautiful watercolor by Van Gogh to make up for it. Drmies (talk) 15:05, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- OK, since you asked for it, you're a mo... mor..., no, I just can't. You made an honest and generous mistake. Malleus Fatuorum 20:51, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Not quite sure
What's this and this all about? I was in complete support of Pesky and her actions, and really, genuinely found her quote to be inspiring. I'm not a 14-year-old admin; you seemed to take my note as an example of how badly behaved I am and somehow complicit with a secret admin/'crat society of which I have no clue (okay, so poor English, but I hope you'll forgive it on this occasion). The Rambling Man (talk) 20:38, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps I read a different meaning into your words than you intended. It seemed evident to me that "the most interesting notion I've seen here" in reference to a fairly banal self-deprecatory observation is in reality a comment on the contributions of every other editor on that talk page. If that was not your intention then we can go our separate ways and not speak of this again. Malleus Fatuorum 20:48, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I most definitely suggest you adopt your recommended course of action. I would also prefer you to strike out anything that related to my position as a 'crat as that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. Your gross misinterpretation of what I said should be unilaterally resolved please. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:51, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Dream on. Malleus Fatuorum 20:51, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Well yes, I thought that would be your response. You made a genuine mistake, and totally mischaracterised my comment. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:53, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- It was you who made the mistake, not me. Malleus Fatuorum 20:55, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Could you clarify how my support for what Pesky said constituted a mistake? And how my position as a "crat" had any bearing on it? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:58, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I have already done so, and you're pursuing me here is simply adding to your mistakes. Malleus Fatuorum 21:00, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I can't believe that by giving support to what Pesky said has resulted in this. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:06, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Then you need to get out more. Malleus Fatuorum 21:10, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I have no particular bone to pick with you beyond what I consider to be your ill-considered observations at Peksy's talk page, so I've got no idea why you're still going on about it. Malleus Fatuorum 21:12, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- My only comment was that I really liked the quote. If you took it a different way than it's your ill-considered reading of my good-faith comment. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:14, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I suggest that you drop this now, as there's no way you'll manage to intimidate me even by the sheer volume of your postings here, much less your bureaucrat status. What you said was "the most interesting notion I've seen here", a clear reference to everything anyone else had posted. So, if your claim is that you expressed yourself badly, then go apologise for that. Malleus Fatuorum 21:19, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- My only comment was that I really liked the quote. If you took it a different way than it's your ill-considered reading of my good-faith comment. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:14, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I can't believe that by giving support to what Pesky said has resulted in this. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:06, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I have already done so, and you're pursuing me here is simply adding to your mistakes. Malleus Fatuorum 21:00, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Could you clarify how my support for what Pesky said constituted a mistake? And how my position as a "crat" had any bearing on it? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:58, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- It was you who made the mistake, not me. Malleus Fatuorum 20:55, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Well yes, I thought that would be your response. You made a genuine mistake, and totally mischaracterised my comment. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:53, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Dream on. Malleus Fatuorum 20:51, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
I don't know what set this off, or who (if anyone) is in the right or wrong here, but to see two of the WP editors I most respect and whose company I think I would enjoy in real life arguing like this is one of the most depressing things I have seen here for a long time. BencherliteTalk 22:37, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Then I guess you haven't been blocked by Courcelle recently. Malleus Fatuorum 22:48, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Onoes, please don't argue! :o( I've only just noticed this; been awake all night now trying to work on policy stuff. I can see how the misunderstanding came about, but I'm absolutely sure that it's just a misunderstanding. My reading of it was exactly what TRM said he meant, but I can totally see how you could equally read it the other way, Malleus. Please guys, each have a hug off me, and find a way of sharing a virtual beer. Okay? Pesky (talk) 04:25, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Belenggu
I know you're semi-retired, but could you take a look at Belenggu? Even if you don't copyedit, if you want you can tear me a new one and question my idiocy for making simple BrE mistakes. Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:22, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'm afraid the days that I'd help anyone with anything are gone. But perhaps the WikiMedia Foundation will be able to supply you with an alternative unit of work. Malleus Fatuorum 07:20, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- That second sentence is... interesting? Alright, no problem. Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:22, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Semantics question
I am currently writing an article on xerotine siccative and there is an instance (and there will almost certainly be more) where the word flammability comes up. I have almost always used the word flammability over inflammability; however, the source uses inflammability. Do you know if this is a British vs. American English problem? If it is more comment in British English to use inflammability, it would be better for me to use inflammability, since the subject is more relevant to British history. Any advice? Ryan Vesey Review me! 16:52, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- The OED considers "flammability" and "inflammability" to be synonyms, so it's potentially rather confusing. I'd stick with "flammability". The best general advice I've seen (from the British Standards Institution) is to avoid the word "inflammable" and instead use "flammable" for things that burn, and "non-flammable" for things that don't. Malleus Fatuorum 18:50, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Reply
Re [2] you're welcome to make any comment you wish regarding my Wikipedia contributions. Nobody Ent 19:52, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- No, I'm not. Malleus Fatuorum 20:27, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Malleus, I explained to Ent how it might seem to be solely an invitation to ANI. As I think you guessed, I was more interested in your observation on the article, which is now in the mainspace anyway. Speaking of anyway, I hope all of this is cleared up now. Have a great weekend and if you see Sitush in the pub, take his keys from him: he gets pretty wild, I hear. Drmies (talk) 00:01, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- You hear? Well, that is a bonus, I guess! Although not being able to hear does have its occasional uses. I've blown one of my eardrums & it is bleeding etc quite badly right now but, hopefully, it will clear up overnight, Plus ça change, plus ça même chose or something like that - I am not great with the Franglais. - Sitush (talk) 00:12, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Sitush, it's always something else with you. At your age, you should really be more careful. Drmies (talk) 01:05, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- It is, indeed. However, I do have the occasional successes. I am having to remove two 90 feet (27 m) cypress trees at my house in Wales and last weekend was suspended 60 feet (18 m) up using a chainsaw on the end of a 12 feet (3.7 m) pole. I am still alive, obviously. - Sitush (talk) 01:18, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Hm, the {{convert}} template really should allow people to select "feet" or "foot". In my part of the world, it would be a "12 foot" pole, for example. - Sitush (talk) 01:36, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- It does: {{convert|90|foot|m}} produces 90 foot (27 m) Nobody Ent 03:30, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- You can also do {{convert|90|ft|m|adj=on}}, which produces 90-foot (27 m) (which has the proper hyphenation) Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:15, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- It does: {{convert|90|foot|m}} produces 90 foot (27 m) Nobody Ent 03:30, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Hm, the {{convert}} template really should allow people to select "feet" or "foot". In my part of the world, it would be a "12 foot" pole, for example. - Sitush (talk) 01:36, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- It is, indeed. However, I do have the occasional successes. I am having to remove two 90 feet (27 m) cypress trees at my house in Wales and last weekend was suspended 60 feet (18 m) up using a chainsaw on the end of a 12 feet (3.7 m) pole. I am still alive, obviously. - Sitush (talk) 01:18, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Sitush, it's always something else with you. At your age, you should really be more careful. Drmies (talk) 01:05, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- You hear? Well, that is a bonus, I guess! Although not being able to hear does have its occasional uses. I've blown one of my eardrums & it is bleeding etc quite badly right now but, hopefully, it will clear up overnight, Plus ça change, plus ça même chose or something like that - I am not great with the Franglais. - Sitush (talk) 00:12, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Malleus, I explained to Ent how it might seem to be solely an invitation to ANI. As I think you guessed, I was more interested in your observation on the article, which is now in the mainspace anyway. Speaking of anyway, I hope all of this is cleared up now. Have a great weekend and if you see Sitush in the pub, take his keys from him: he gets pretty wild, I hear. Drmies (talk) 00:01, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
Sitush, I envy you! I love climbing trees! And, what with the neck etc., it's been far too long since I've been able to do so. Pesky (talk) 05:25, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- What's with this feedback thing? Has someone finally twigged that W. is used by (ahem) consumers? Ning-ning (talk) 08:15, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- My problem is a hip full of metal and arthritis etc from numerous other past broken bones. However, the job needs to be done & I am not paying £2500 to have someone else do it (more, if I want to keep the wood for my own use, as I do). - Sitush (talk) 09:40, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Been there, done that. About 25 years ago we had a big garden with lots of trees and one night half of a black poplar blew down. After getting lots of quotes for silly money I decided to do it myself and hired a chain saw for the weekend. Like all 2-stroke equipment you hire it was a complete bastard to start but once you got it warm you could stop and start it again with no problems. I put my ladders against the tree, climbed out onto the beginning of the branch I needed to cut, roped myself to the tree trunk and cut through the branch. It fell away from the tree just as planned, destroying the garden table I'd forgotten to move out of the way. When I looked around there was a crowd of people in the allotments behind the garden all looking at the idiot making all the noise tied to a tree. My brother-in-law and I then spent the rest of the day chopping down the rest of it and cutting it into manageable pieces - along with any other bits of tree around the garden I didn't like the look of. When I woke up next morning I was aching in every bone and muscle, and when I tried to start the chain saw I didn't even have the strength to turn over the engine, so the second day of hire was completely wasted. The next time I wanted to cut a branch off a tree I climbed it with the ladders, sat on the branch that need to come off and cut through it with a bow saw. This time the branch swung down and swiped away the ladders so I spent the next half hour trying to attract the attention of to one of the neighbours to ask her to get my wife to put the ladders back. I don't think I was cut out to be a tree surgeon. Richerman (talk) 11:36, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- It certainly doesn't sound like it. Perhaps a slapstick comedy actor in the Buster Keaton vein would be a more suitable vocation. OTOH, if you ever want another go then don't hire a saw: I've got three here + my harness etc, and I promise to watch carefully while you sweat. - Sitush (talk) 18:42, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- You're all heart! Actually I have a small electric one now (as tools are much cheaper these days) and a garden with not so many trees. One day though I'll get to that bloody conifer that blows in front of the Sky dish when its windy. Anyway, my only arboreal injuries so far have been to a garden table and my pride - no broken bones or metal hip plates yet :-) Richerman (talk) 00:19, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- There is nothing wrong with watching a craftsman at work, nor with watching an uninvolved debacle unfold! My breaks are a part of my birthright, as is my deafness etc. (I should put a plug in here for the rubella inoculation but won't. Oh, sorry, I just did). Plus, playing rugby & various other contact sports didn't help. I've used a couple of the Aldi etc type of electrics and they were fine, if you do not need the freedom of movement that a 2-stroke brings. Either type is better than none, and people appreciate it if you have a big chopper, so to speak. I took a tree out last year for a neighbour who was experiencing the Sky dish issue. It wasn't even their tree but, hey ho, that is not my problem - just dump the stuff on the correct side of the boundary & assume that they have had talks. With the rise in use of woodburning stoves and Sky, I expect a rather significant increase in deforestation, which is a shame because I love trees & when I cut them I have this weird feeling of guilt. - Sitush (talk) 01:04, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- Yep, I'm rather fond of trees too if the truth be known. The main reason I haven't done anthing to the conifer is that it's used by a lot of birds - I could do with just lopping off the top really. Now, if you had a helicopter I could borrow.......Richerman (talk) 09:28, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- Out on our field, the only options are two-stroke or the ol' fashioned way, with hand tools. No electricity ... and we're currently in the process of clearing saplings, brambles and scrub galore. Hoping to be able to free-up about an acre or so of extra graze-able land, by the time we've finished. But, for digging the 100m-odd of drainage ditch, and making the embankment alongside it, the idea is to hire a mini-digger for the day. Not that that will help us with digging the drainage in the woodland, or making the bog-passage under-drained pathway in the woodland, as there is no way to get the digger in there. That's going to have to be an all-done-by-hand-and-sweat jobbie. Deep joy.
Hey, the way to lop off the top is to climb up there, rope the top, strain it slightly down to a suitable other tree of your choice (to tether it and put a bit of strain on it), and then use the bow saw. You may need more than one rope, and more than one set of spare hands, to keep the top under control on its way down ;P Pesky (talk) 09:30, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- Out on our field, the only options are two-stroke or the ol' fashioned way, with hand tools. No electricity ... and we're currently in the process of clearing saplings, brambles and scrub galore. Hoping to be able to free-up about an acre or so of extra graze-able land, by the time we've finished. But, for digging the 100m-odd of drainage ditch, and making the embankment alongside it, the idea is to hire a mini-digger for the day. Not that that will help us with digging the drainage in the woodland, or making the bog-passage under-drained pathway in the woodland, as there is no way to get the digger in there. That's going to have to be an all-done-by-hand-and-sweat jobbie. Deep joy.
- Yep, I'm rather fond of trees too if the truth be known. The main reason I haven't done anthing to the conifer is that it's used by a lot of birds - I could do with just lopping off the top really. Now, if you had a helicopter I could borrow.......Richerman (talk) 09:28, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- There is nothing wrong with watching a craftsman at work, nor with watching an uninvolved debacle unfold! My breaks are a part of my birthright, as is my deafness etc. (I should put a plug in here for the rubella inoculation but won't. Oh, sorry, I just did). Plus, playing rugby & various other contact sports didn't help. I've used a couple of the Aldi etc type of electrics and they were fine, if you do not need the freedom of movement that a 2-stroke brings. Either type is better than none, and people appreciate it if you have a big chopper, so to speak. I took a tree out last year for a neighbour who was experiencing the Sky dish issue. It wasn't even their tree but, hey ho, that is not my problem - just dump the stuff on the correct side of the boundary & assume that they have had talks. With the rise in use of woodburning stoves and Sky, I expect a rather significant increase in deforestation, which is a shame because I love trees & when I cut them I have this weird feeling of guilt. - Sitush (talk) 01:04, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- You're all heart! Actually I have a small electric one now (as tools are much cheaper these days) and a garden with not so many trees. One day though I'll get to that bloody conifer that blows in front of the Sky dish when its windy. Anyway, my only arboreal injuries so far have been to a garden table and my pride - no broken bones or metal hip plates yet :-) Richerman (talk) 00:19, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- It certainly doesn't sound like it. Perhaps a slapstick comedy actor in the Buster Keaton vein would be a more suitable vocation. OTOH, if you ever want another go then don't hire a saw: I've got three here + my harness etc, and I promise to watch carefully while you sweat. - Sitush (talk) 18:42, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Been there, done that. About 25 years ago we had a big garden with lots of trees and one night half of a black poplar blew down. After getting lots of quotes for silly money I decided to do it myself and hired a chain saw for the weekend. Like all 2-stroke equipment you hire it was a complete bastard to start but once you got it warm you could stop and start it again with no problems. I put my ladders against the tree, climbed out onto the beginning of the branch I needed to cut, roped myself to the tree trunk and cut through the branch. It fell away from the tree just as planned, destroying the garden table I'd forgotten to move out of the way. When I looked around there was a crowd of people in the allotments behind the garden all looking at the idiot making all the noise tied to a tree. My brother-in-law and I then spent the rest of the day chopping down the rest of it and cutting it into manageable pieces - along with any other bits of tree around the garden I didn't like the look of. When I woke up next morning I was aching in every bone and muscle, and when I tried to start the chain saw I didn't even have the strength to turn over the engine, so the second day of hire was completely wasted. The next time I wanted to cut a branch off a tree I climbed it with the ladders, sat on the branch that need to come off and cut through it with a bow saw. This time the branch swung down and swiped away the ladders so I spent the next half hour trying to attract the attention of to one of the neighbours to ask her to get my wife to put the ladders back. I don't think I was cut out to be a tree surgeon. Richerman (talk) 11:36, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- My problem is a hip full of metal and arthritis etc from numerous other past broken bones. However, the job needs to be done & I am not paying £2500 to have someone else do it (more, if I want to keep the wood for my own use, as I do). - Sitush (talk) 09:40, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
Or, f'rinstance, a garden table ... the kind of knot we use for tightening ropes over hay-trailers is kewl (and I can't remember what they're called!) If you have two of them (working out the triangulation nicely, of course), you can drop the top 20ft of a half-dead holly tree directly onto the tops of the fence-posts you want to use it as a top-rail for ;P Pesky (talk) 10:43, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- But climbing to the top of a dense conifer is a bit tricky and the only trees I could tie it to are in other people's gardens. Roping it to ground pegs would possible but getting up high enough to cut it would be a bit of a problem. I'd need a scaffolding tower I suppose. Richerman (talk) 18:32, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- Guess what? I have one of those also, although it is only of limited use unless you have access to all "sides" of the tree. In any event, if the birds are nesting then now is not the time. Perhaps it is a daft question, but can the dish not be moved? - Sitush (talk) 18:44, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- We had it moved about 2 years ago and it's ok at the moment but they didn't move it far enough and I can see when the tree grows a bit taller it will become a problem again. That would be the answer really but there's a mountain ash growing in the neighbour's garden in the other space that's left and that will fill the gap before too long. I think it would probably be best to have it moved onto the chimney but most of the installers are reluctant to get up that high. I'm sure I'll find someone to do it when it gets a problem again though - I'll just have to pay a bit more. Richerman (talk) 19:47, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- Isn't it something that you can do yourself, with those handy roof ladders (the ones with the angled top which goes over the ridge)? IIRC, there's nothing majorly techy about siting those things ... nothing a reasonably intellismart human being shouldn't be able to do, possibly with some background research beforehand. Unless, of course, you really don't like heights, that is. Pesky (talk) 19:48, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- I could do it, I've got the signal strength meter to set up the dish for the caravan, but at 62 I'm getting a bit stiff for climbing on the roof. I went up a couple of years ago when there was scaffolding up but the last time I tried it with a cat ladder I came a bit too close to falling off whilst climbing over the gutter. Probably worth paying a younger man to do the job. Richerman (talk) 21:12, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Hehe! Yes, could be! This, of course, is where younger members of the family can come in handy. Though a decent safety harness, tethered to two points (please! So that when you move the top point, on the chimney or wherever, you're still tethered to the lower one, etc.) is OK. And abseiling / rapelling (sp?) down the walls is such fun! And, for that bit, it really doesn't matter if you're a bit stiff. Pesky (talk) 21:16, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- I could do it, I've got the signal strength meter to set up the dish for the caravan, but at 62 I'm getting a bit stiff for climbing on the roof. I went up a couple of years ago when there was scaffolding up but the last time I tried it with a cat ladder I came a bit too close to falling off whilst climbing over the gutter. Probably worth paying a younger man to do the job. Richerman (talk) 21:12, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Isn't it something that you can do yourself, with those handy roof ladders (the ones with the angled top which goes over the ridge)? IIRC, there's nothing majorly techy about siting those things ... nothing a reasonably intellismart human being shouldn't be able to do, possibly with some background research beforehand. Unless, of course, you really don't like heights, that is. Pesky (talk) 19:48, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- We had it moved about 2 years ago and it's ok at the moment but they didn't move it far enough and I can see when the tree grows a bit taller it will become a problem again. That would be the answer really but there's a mountain ash growing in the neighbour's garden in the other space that's left and that will fill the gap before too long. I think it would probably be best to have it moved onto the chimney but most of the installers are reluctant to get up that high. I'm sure I'll find someone to do it when it gets a problem again though - I'll just have to pay a bit more. Richerman (talk) 19:47, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- Guess what? I have one of those also, although it is only of limited use unless you have access to all "sides" of the tree. In any event, if the birds are nesting then now is not the time. Perhaps it is a daft question, but can the dish not be moved? - Sitush (talk) 18:44, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
I'd appreciate your opinion...
here, if you are willing. :) LadyofShalott 13:23, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
GD vs IP
Thanks for standing up to the IP, Malleus ;) GoodDay (talk) 17:58, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
I don't know ..
and full disclosure - I saw a post on Scotty Wong's page. I'm not sure how it started, and quite frankly - not only do I not care, but it's actually none of my damn business. I will say this though - I have a ton of respect for both you and Pedro, so I do hope that you'll both find a way to work through any disagreements you may have. There's far too few good and honest people about this project - so when there's a disagreement between what I consider two of the best, then I tend to wish some resolution can be found. OK - I'm done letting my thoughts find their way to the keyboard now. Cheers and best. — Ched : ? 09:43, 1 May 2012 (UTC)